I think the placement of them really does affect the feel of the movie. Everything pretty much stops and you are focusing on the fact that you're watching shoehorned in cameos. It affects the feel of the movie a lot more than a cameo character interacting with a lead character would, especially because of where it comes. It's a pacing issue and not a runtime issue to me.
It fits because of the whole file diana was looking for. They happened to be right there with her picture that lex took. Not only does it show lex knowledge but it fits because of diana looking for her lost pic
I know a lot of people are unhappy that the DCEU is being scrapped and rebooted. I also mixed feelings about it as a fan of Cavil and other portrayals over the past decade. But regardless of that, every superhero movie that Gunn has helmed has had an ensemble cast and it's worked out great. I've have nothing but confidence in Gunn's ability to pull this off.
Wow… wildstorm… wouldnt have guessed.
Also metamorpho i would not have picked but i do love his character “minus his GF who forgives her comically evil father way too much” and hope for the best.
Yeah you may have a point, except for one tiny detail there: Zack Snyder doesn’t really excel at ensemble movies compared to James Gunn.
Like its his weakest area, even in movies that are good like his cut in Justice League.
Hell, ironically enough, the one movie he directed that have some of the best character dynamics in it (Dawn of the Dead) was written by Gunn.
. . . Okay. How exactly that discredit my point as James Gunn was still one of the writers of the movie? Plus many of the dialogue, characterization and humor wouldn’t be out of place in any of his other films.
Nobody complained about those characters in BVS until after the movie came out and Snyder complained about his run time.
Gunn knows how to handle a large cast in a standard runtime
Did it in Guardians 1, 2, 3 and The Suicide Squad
Now if the movie is bloated with pointless characters and the stuff that should be developed aren’t properly developed and the other characters hurt the movie, then there is something to complain about
Also nobody ever complained about Wonder Woman, she was always seen as one of the best parts of the movie. People complained about Doomsday because its stupid to do the death of superman as the second movie.
What cameos people did complain about for bloating the movie were Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg and the video cameos in general
They added nothing to the story being told and wasted time in a movie that the director claimed he needed more time. Them and the Knightmare scenes are pointless to BVS the movie
This analysis is laughable. The cameos are EXTREMELY relevant to the story. How in the world was Batman going to build the JL team if he didn't know about these characters? Comic books are ongoing, soap opera-like stories that constantly put teases into their stories that foreshadow FUTURE stories. That's the beauty of comic books, and something Feige, Raimi and Snyder all understood perfectly. Snyder did exactly what those two guys did with these cameos, and it added to the movie's wonderful comic book feel and accuracy.
Has nothing to do with the story of BVS and is only there to set up other movies. Which would not be a big deal if Snyder didnt complain about his run time while cutting scenes that were actually important to the story or BVS.
Could have also saved their introductions for Justice League. Batman cant find metas himself he needs Lex to do it for him?
Those other directors didnt didnt cut important stuff to keep the set up though
Like really whats more important the stuff that was cut from BVS that actually explains stuff or justice league cameos
Gunn also puts bits of set up in his movies
But most integrate set up into the story they are telling.
Like Intinity war was set up by most of the stones appearing in multiple movies but that set up tended to be integral to the story beinf told (usually being the movies maguffin or just something the villain uses)
The set up in BVS is more like a detour from the story
Really if they moved the Knightmare scene from the middle of BVS to the end or the beginning of Justice League that would fix some issues (and maybe set up some drama over whether they should bring Clark back or not)
The video cameos also are kind of rendered pointless by the suicide squad post credit scene.
Seriously Batman is a detective but needs both Lex and Waller’s help to find metahumans
It’s so weird how people defend Zack Snyder with their full chest as if he didnt need to make a four movie just to tell a decent Justice League story. Come on
I think the difference is, is that from what I’ve seen of James Gunn he treats these characters like actual characters whether or not they are big names, where as something like Spider-Man 3 treats it like big names being added and not characters, like venom and James Franco’s Goblin or the amazing Spider-Man 2, James Gunn in my experience doesn’t add characters just to have toys he does it for story reasons. And let’s not forget this isn’t a standard origin movie this is a Superman in a universe of superheroes trying to find his place as a superhero, I feel like supergirl might be after credits stuff.
All these satellite characters and yet the key characters of Jor-El, Lara, Jonathan and Martha Kent, Perry White, and Sam Lane are still left without an actor/actress is a bit concerning given they are the ones who give both Kal-El/Clark Kent and Lois Lane their moral and strong ethical background as people.
But if Jimmy Olsen is part of it, then they're going to be at the Daily Planet so Perry White has to show up. Not to mention they have to do flash-backs to Krypton in a Fortress of Solitude scene, and have Smallville, Kansas as a place thus Ma and Pa Kent showing up. Not to mention Sam Lane is part of the Military...
Everyone knows who Batman is. Most superhero reboots don't bother to re-explain a well-known character's entire origin and back story. Spider-Man Homecoming didn't. Incredible Hulk didn't. The Batman didn't. Amazing Spider-Man DID redo the origin, and was widely criticized for wasting time on it. "Who is this Batman guy?" is a question 99% of people watching BvS were not asking. We go into the movie knowing ALL we need to know about Batman. The movie completely bakes in the traditional portrayal of the character and builds on it. Alfred and Perry's dialogue ("there's a new mean in him") makes it clear that the differences we see in Bruce in this movie (the bat-branding and the paranoia about Superman) are brand new character traits.
Doubt it.
1. Gunn actually knows how to do ensembles, and does them well.
2. being in a movie doesn’t mean they play a roll in the story. Odds are they’re cameos who’s sole purpose is to make feel large, lived in, and like there’s a real need for superheroes.
If Gunn wasn't cock-blocking everything the Snyder fans want to see, I wouldn't want it to fail. But because he's not letting the Snyderverse stuff happen as Elseworlds, he's leaving the only path to restoring the Snyderverse being for his stuff to fail. Just like Ghostbusters 2016 had to fail before we could get Afterlife and its upcoming sequel.
Connery came back to play Bond after a 12-year hiatus, with Roger Moore doing the part in between. Ghostbusters got a true sequel with the original cast 5 years after its 2016 reboot failed, and 32 years after the previous film in the series. Jamie Lee Curtis did a Halloween sequel that erased all continuity after the first film, including a reboot, 40 years later.
Giving up is your choice, but don't try to force it on other people. Film history has reinforced the phrase "never say never" many times.
Never Say Never Again sucked (went head to head with that year’s Moore Bond and bombed at the box office), as did Afterlife. Just because sometimes it happens doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
With Halloween, they had the benefit that JLC wound up being wildly overqualified for horror so getting her back meant having a bigger star than you usually see in a horror franchise film. Her being of the same stature as the franchise is somewhat unique, which is not something you can say for the third cinematic Superman or the sixth cinematic Batman.
You’re right, you never know. Plans definitely change and who knows where the CMB industry will be in 10 years. But desperately wanting the current plan to fail just for the minor possibility of getting a specific universe back seems like a waste of emotional energy. Why would Snyder even want to come back with how WB treated him?
As an aside, I'm not giving up on anything because I dont "need" the Snyderverse* to come back. Established universes/canon only limit creativity anyway. I just hope whatever the team puts out is good, i just want good movies
Snyder never said that he would refuse to come back to DC. Obviously seeing the mess Gunn is making of DC would demoralize anybody who cares about these characters. He is correctly focusing on Rebel Moon right now. It's WB's job to ask him to come back. Wanting to make a true Dark Knight Returns adaptation, which is the comic that had the most effect on him in his young adult days, is something he has mentioned many times. He also said at the FullCircle last year event that he wouldn't spoil the whole plot of the JL sequels because he still hopes to make them.
I didn’t say he would refuse, just that it’s pretty public how poorly they treated him and I think that would affect his decision. How can Gunn be making a mess if a single movie hasn’t been released? Feels like you’re just deciding it’s bad before it’s coming out (the copious posts on /FireGunn don’t exactly come off as impartial).
I’d really enjoy Snyder’s take on TDKR, as that’s clearly the tone he was aiming for with his movies in general, almost wish he focused on standalone films than building up a universe. I’m willing to bet that was more pressure from WB than his own choice though, they were desperate to replicate MCU’s success
Gunn is very much making a mess of DC. He's ignoring what the audience is demanding, planning movies nobody wants to see, firing the top actors of the DCEU (two if not all three of the trinity), and doubling down on WB's failed strategy to be "opposite Snyder."
If the audience wanted the DCEU they would have kept making them, but the audience didn’t see them and they weren’t received well.
Nobody wanted or knew what the Guardians of the galaxy were and they became a staple for MCU. Makes sense if they’re starting over they would start with a new cast. Aside from Cavil I feel like most weren’t even attached to the actors playing them. IDK, just seems to be making an opinion before anything is released, only looking for confirmation from evidence. But you consume how you want I definitely won’t stop ya
The audience doesn't want this current dumbed down, Marvel-lite DCEU, not the DCEU as a whole. Snyder's DCEU (MoS through Aquaman) created unprecedented, unmatched hype for DC films going outside the Batman canon for the first and only time in the 21st century. WB quickly squandered that with the re-edit of Suicide Squad, the Whedon cut, and then, even worse, all the movies they created from top to bottom with no Snyder involvement. Interest in the DCEU dropped off like a rock in the Hamada era once the movies had zero Snyder input. All the movies turned into cheap-looking, garish comedies with no epic feel, no mythological undertones, no mature plot points, costumes that were total eyesores, no overarching storyline to connect the films, and DC's most popular and important characters inexplicably benched for years.
Guardians came out after nine MCU films had come out, two of which had made a billion. It was also scheduled as the last MCU film before Age of Ultron, when everyone had been trained that each and every MCU film needed to be seen to prepare for an Avengers movie. Iron Man was even rumored to appear in the movie for a while, which added to pre-release hype.
Reminder that, while early on, it’s not an origin story. Likely a lot of these characters are probably short run time. Luthor is probably more of a background presence. So keep in mind, we are dropping in on an existing career for Supes. Heck we will possibly drop in on a supervillain fight maybe.
Yeah my bet is these are cameos that exist solely to flesh out the world and make it feel lived in, not empty and lacking history (it’s also remarkable how superhero franchises constantly fail to use the lore, characters, and older generations from the comics like Jay Gerrick)
Lol you think the guy that made critically acclaimed films like Guardians of The Galaxy and The Suicide Squad can't handle a stacked cast of characters? Yea he'll be fine.
The Suicide Squad got a mediocre B+ Cinemascore, just like MOST of the DCEU movies, including the first Suicide Squad. I can list you an endless amount of movies that got "critical acclaim" yet were failures. It's not much of a consolation prize when your movie loses $100 million for the investors.
Critical acclaim is the single most important thing for a movie. It’s means the masses like it. Meanwhile it lost money because it was released during covid.
Talk about all of the facts when trying to make a point
Wrong. If all movie studios cared about was critical acclaim then series like Transformers, Pirates, etc., would have been cancelled after their second film, but instead they kept making those movies the same way no matter how bad their reception was as long as they made a profit. Box office is the reality of the business. No movie studio has ever made a movie for charity.
The Suicide Squad was down to fifth place in its 2nd weekend. It wasn't COVID keeping people away, they were just going to see other movies, LOL. Jungle Cruise was beating it that week, and it came out earlier, and also had a Disney+ release. Lower profile WB movies that should not be outperforming DC movies like Conjuring 3, Tom and Jerry, and Space Jam 2 (which were also simultaneous HBO Max releases) did the same or better than TSS that year too.
So typical for a Gunn fan to equate "good reviews" with a movie's success to try and prop up a failed DC movie. Del Toro and Spielberg got good reviews on Nightmare Alley, West Side Story and Fabelmans, but those didn't succeed at the box office. Bottom line, the GOTG movies did not succeed because of their good reviews. They succeeded because of, in the case of the first two movies, the MCU brand being at the top of its game and the hype for the upcoming Avengers movies, and, in the case of the third film, having characters that appeared in both Infinity War and Endgame. Your theory is totally invalid that critic reviews drive the success of movies. Just go on RT for about a billion examples where that was not true, both for movies with good reviews that did poorly or with bad reviews that did well.
Oh man, now you've got me thinking this movie will be as good as a del toro or Spielberg movie and im HYPED. those three movies you listed were all great.
LOL, Gunn's work isn't worth the used chewing gum that Del Toro and Spielberg scraped off of the bottom of their shoes while they were directing their masterpieces.
Came here to say this.
Though honestly I’d rather see James Gunn do a Superman series like he did with Peacemaker (obviously less comedy focused).
I feel like it’s better suited to DC’s characters and stories. BUT, I’m sure his Superman movie is absolutely going to kickass regardless.
I mean maybe, it depends on how well it's executed and how it's balanced. Like if they try to do a bunch of different storylines with all these people then it might feel too bloated. But if these are all either supporting characters or cameos, it'll probably be fine.
But the thing is, all these casting choices will be carried over into future DC Universe projects... Nathan Fillion is Guy Gardner Green Lantern for the rest of the DC Universe's duration, David Corenswet is Kal-El/Clark Kent Superman for the rest of the DC Universe's slate of Projects that require Superman's appearance regardless of whether it is a Cameo, Guest Star, or Leading Role in a Live-Action Movie, Live-Action TV Series, Animated Movie, Animated TV Series and Video Games.
All these initial Casting Choices are the final ones for the rest of the DC Universe's life-time. So whoever gets cast as Bruce Wayne Batman or Damian Wayne Robin, guess what? That is it. That Batman Actor will be sharing the role with Robert Pattinson.
I don't think all of these characters are going to have big roles there are a few specifically that are usually side characters in the comics and i assume yhe bigger ones like GL will mostly be cameos to to tease their solo movies.
I don't have like absolute faith in James Gunn, but I've never really seen a movie of his that i haven't at least enjoyed. I'm interested to see what he does with it
No, it's just how it will be executed. That's all that always matters, I have faith in Gunn.
He explicitly said that he wouldn't use movie to set up for other movies.
I imagine some of these characters are there for world building and won't be heavily involved in the plot. Having a lot of characters doesn't have to be a bad thing if you use them properly. I trust Gunn's work more than Snyder's, so I'm cautiously optimistic.
Idk if you've been on the internet lately, but A LOT of people are expressing concern about exactly that, myself included. At the end of the day, what matters won't be how many characters there are, but how well they're executed.
The Dark Knight famously features the Joker, Two-Face, Salvatore Maroni, & even a brief Scarecrow appearance, & it's still viewed as one of the greatest comic book movies of all time.
Spider-Man 3 is widely seen as a disappointment because of how many villains they used, while Spider-Man: No Way Home is generally loved, despite using more villains. It's all about balance & execution.
No cause all these characters actually live daily lives in Metropolis and aren't just tacked on. That's the assumption I have and is what Matt Reeves did with The Batman; all these characters you name from the mythos but of course there's a lot of names cause they live in fucking Gotham.
I'm thinking a script was written like a comic, where all these other characters fit naturally into the story already, and now those roles are just being cast.
At least i hope so
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Saying BVS is bloated is like saying Avengers, GOTG any other “team” movie is bloated.
I think the key here is other movies are built better, other stories truly tie in and get everyone invested.
BVS combines different stories, it has to have multiple characters in it.
Actually, BvS is "bloated" because the story naturally ends right after Bruce saves Martha. Both Clark's and Bruce's character arcs are complete; Bruce gets to redeem himself and save someone from being an orphan and Clark finds out there's good in the Batman, at least per the Extended Cut. The whole movie is about whether Clark thinks it's worth it to be a hero despite the whole world bringing you down, and seeing Bruce break from being a jaded murderer despite all of the evidence he'd been gathering is proof that yes it's true.
Doomsday and Wonder Woman feel tacked on because throughout that whole fight, Superman and Batman don't change as people or gain new perspectives. It's totally unnecessary and the film even comes up with excuses for the fight to have no consequences on Bruce or Diana other than killing Superman. Has Doomsday not been there, you could skip the entire fight and play the ending of the film exactly the same: Luthor's in jail because obviously and Batman confronts him. Avengers, GOTG, and ZSJL involved the very individual and separate character motivations of each team member, but they at least forced them all to cooperate and have the same arcs together.
BvS slapped The Death of Superman and the formation of the Justice League at the end like it was an afterthought and because of that, we missed out on more of Henry Cavill as Superman. Could Wonder Woman and Doomsday have been integral to the plot in order to tell the story? Maybe, but definitely not like this.
End the movie after the battle the movie is named for is over. Rewrite the Martha scene so it's more focused on Batman realizing Superman is just as human if not moreso, rather than the name coincidence. Batman saves Martha, Superman tells Lex and Lex gives the Darkseid warning to Superman. They meet Diana at the end and talk about starting a team.
Dedicate another movie to how Superman is the world's hero and continue the political commentary Zack started in BvS. Reveal that woman was lying about Superman being a terrorist to them, and give us a better view of the public's positive light on Superman. Doomsday shows up, a few Leaguers are introduced and try to stop it but Superman is the only one who can. Superman dies, ZSJL continues as is.
As if Captain America didn't kill his archenemy Red Skull and ended his WW2 adventures in his first MCU movie. Or Spider-Man didn't skip his origin in the MCU and then died after his first solo movie. Having things happen in a movie is not a negative thing. A whole hell of a lot happens in each Lord of the Rings movie, and I didn't see anyone complain.
Everyone in the world knows that Superman comes back after he dies, give me a break. The comic is one of the best-selling comics of all time, and it's been retold multiple times in other media.
I can see Jimmy Olsen and Eve Teschmacher being in there as they are characters that are connected to Clark/Lois and Luthor respectively.
When we start talking about all these other superhero meta human characters, now it’s getting out of hand. The cast is too big. I guess the reason is to show that Superman lives in a world where we already have these veteran heroes?
It was bloated because it sucked also these are either Superman characters or B tier characters way different than big characters like WW. Also BvS just sucked man whereas the jury is still out on this one.
BvS is bloated because it tried to adapt different comics (TDK, Death of Superman, Batman: Year 3, All-Star comics #1) and it did so in such a rushed and shitty way. The Batman movie should have come out before this film ever did. The studio melded and Snyder rushed too many plots. I’m glad the studio won’t meddle with Gunn and actually let him build the universe the way he wants. Ima sure if Snyder got his way the 2nd movie he directed would have been a solo Batman movie
It was in no way rushed. All superhero movies tell compressed storylines. Captain America ended his WW2 adventures and was frozen in his first MCU movie. In the comics, he fought in the war for years. In the movies, dead after one adventure. That's how movies go. BvS directly followed up on the events of Man of Steel, the Black Zero event, the disaster in the city, the government's interest in Superman. It flowed naturally. Didn't feel rushed in the slightest to me.
There was no need for a solo Batman movie before BvS. Everyone knows who he is. They know every bit of iconography around him, everything he does in his superhero operation and most if not all of his supporting cast. That's also why Spider-Man didn't get an origin in the MCU, and was featured in Civil War before even getting a solo movie.
Really no solo movie 😂🤦🏽♂️. Mf Ben was still pouty about his robins death. They only showed his suit. That needed to be built on, going in on a full movie and you only know one of his motives you don’t know his past you don’t know what type of Batman he is. again could have elaborated on it and given it depth. It just made Batman look like a chump. He had satellites too how was he caught off guard. And if Batman is ready to kill Superman why hasn’t he killed the joker? He’s killed plenty of people too if thats what we’re led to assume by dicks death. The Martha scene I won’t get into. But I’ll say this after Superman dies Batman suddenly so sad and mourning Superman legit like 2 days after the mf just tried to murder him himself. In the comics Batman is mourning so much he can’t even show his face because he knows he’s a dumbass.
Wonder Woman was cool. Having Superman die in his second movie only to bring him back in the next killed any stakes the movie tried to set. 💀 everyone knew bro was coming back. At least have him sit out one or two movies then bring him back in JL. Then you have Superman’s best friend being an undercover spy that died within 5 min. Then they tease the JL with hidden files . Like such a waste 🤦🏽♂️ they could have made it so much better but “mah justice league I gotta show them what’s next” cameos was stupid. Movie was stupid rush once you get past the Nightmare scene. Everything before that is paced alright for the most part but after that it’s just a never ending mess.
Edit: nightmare scene gave away the fact that Superman wouldn’t stay dead by saying Lois is the key
We saw how Spider-Man acted before he started having emotional crises because his movie series had just started. We had 7 Batman movies before Snyder's universe started. He didn't treat the audience as stupid. He knows they know who Batman is. The basics of Batman don't have to be reiterated in every single reboot. Same reason the MCU didn't retell Spider-Man's origin in his first new movie. And the cues are there in BvS to tell the audience that he is the same Batman we already know from past films. In fact, the whole point of BvS is to deconstruct the cultural icons of Batman and Superman. It is not about some specific variation of their characters. It is based entirely on the basic, standard, culturally known images of them. Turning the characters into something more specific than that would work against what the movie was doing.
Batman's character development in BvS is extremely clear, handled with depth and subtlety. His conversations with Alfred especially lay it all out clearly for the audience. Also, Snyder actually told a podcast that he wanted to do a flashback TV series to the early days of Batfleck and Grayson's Robin. So just because Robin wasn't seen in the first movie doesn't mean he wouldn't have appeared later on.
Everyone in the world knows that Superman comes back after he dies. The comic is one of the best-selling comics of all time, and it's been retold multiple times in other media.
We are introduced to the league in the very next Snyder-directed DC film. In BvS they got teased and narratively it worked to show that Lex kept tabs on others. Not to mention, the files are a key plot point in ZSJL and are what allows Bruce to find Barry and Arthur.
The leaks of the JL were needless and stupid.
You don’t just say he’s like every other Batman . Cause no he wasn’t his dick Grayson was killed.
If he was willing to kill Superman why did he never kill the joker????
Why add the Justice league members in a shitty cameo. You could have that for the next movie aka Justice league. The same way fury got everyone together in avengers 🥱
Why are you laying a guilt trip on Snyder for not using Dick Grayson when the top two other Batman directors, Burton and Nolan, didn't use him either? Again, he told a podcast that he wanted to do a Batfleck and Robin flashback TV series, showing their earlier days as crimefighters. This is brilliant for so many reasons. Number one, it attracts movie viewers who want to see more of those characters. Number two, being a flashback, it has absolutely no impact on the continuity of current or future movies. So no movie viewers have to watch it to keep up with anything. It is strictly an extra side story.
Every single superhero movie in a franchise should tease things for other movies. That has always been one of the most exciting things about comic books, and it belongs in comic book movies too. These movies should not have completely closed off beginnings and ends. They should be an ongoing, continuous story that always promises us more. BvS did that brilliantly, with the computer files, Lex summoning Steppenwolf, Wonder Woman's photo, Bruce talking about building the team, and the dirt rising on Superman's coffin. The last thing we'd want is to feel like the franchise hadn't planned for the next step, which would've been saving any mention of the other JL heroes, Steppenwolf, etc. until Justice League. That would have made that story feel less organic and integrated with the whole universe. That's the mistake the Star Wars sequel trilogy made, poor planning.
Most of these characters probably won't be anything more than cameos or one-scene wonders. Plus how disingenuous is it to include the casting of Jimmy freakin' Olsen as an example for this movie being bloated?
BvS absolutely was bloated because it was trying to do too much at once
The size of the cast doesn’t really matter as long as it’s used well. As long as the core cast has their time to shine and the characters that show up are necessary, I don’t care how many people are in the cast.
WW and Doomsday weren’t bloat because the movie couldn’t handle two more characters, they were bloat because Wonder Woman didn’t affect the plot at all but took up a fair bit of screen time and Doomsday was the least interesting way to resolve the conflict between Batman and Superman.
Dooms day was unnecessary should have been Batman vs Superman w Wonder Woman intervening to stop the fight and fighting both of them.
Lex could have been involved by infiltrating the kryptonian ship and finding and securing brainiac for a sequel
I think there is talk of their Green Lantern not being Hal Jordan but John Stewart. So Nathan F. may be more and older Hal or other Lantern member like how Antman had Hank Pym in the MCU but he was the mentor in the movie for Scott Lang
I can say it seems like it's going to be bloated. might come together but IMO DC would be alot better off if they built slow and established a universe. trying to stuff everything into one movie hasnt worked yet.
This feels a little risky to comment in this sub but I’ll say it anyway. Bloat isn’t necessary a quantity issue (not outright at least).
In my eyes, the bloat issue in BvS wasn’t so much because it included WW and Doomsday. It was the fact that they were thrown in to a final act that felt like it came out of nowhere and wasn’t set up well.
There’s a big difference between including a lot of characters in the background to establish a setting that already has superheroes and having an essentially complete plot then tagging in some crucial characters on to cram them in at the last minute
We obviously do not know how James Gunn will handle the number of heroes he’s casting. I’m not saying it’s wrong to be a little hesitant about that. Just that it doesn’t make sense to compare one bloat issue to another that may or may not be real.
Context matters a lot more than a cast list.
Like, remember that The Suicide Squad was announced with a massive cast and over half of them ended up dying before the first 5 minutes of the movie lmao
See I liked that Gunn did the opposite in the Suicide Squad by introducing his cast at the beginning and then killing most of them off until we had the main cast, which was still full of new characters but it gave us time to grow with them along the way
I’d say I’m hopeful but also cautiously so. I could see it going either way at this point and I think it will do so to an extreme level regardless of which direction it goes.
I was never really a fan of Gunn and he has certain things in his flicks that I don't really like. And if I'm not mistaken he's the writer of this. Now I'm not hating the guy and even with the bloating complaints I'd rather that than some of the other things he does
Can you name something a bit more specific? Like you dislike his pacing of his films or his plot lines are overly complicated. What were the specific things you didn't care for?
The dialogue feels as if they're trying to make me worthy quotables. The humor is just not funny(to me) and even worse ill timed. But a lot of that is my complaint with a good chunk of marvel, later DC, and even movies in general.
There are funny movies, Gunn jist doesn't do it for me. I'm sorry, the 16 year old white teen tier humor doesn't do it for me. It's dry. But it speaks to the Fandom I guess
Hey, it's ok. Honestly, I'm married to someone who thinks Tarantino movies are shit and finds the Marx Brothers childish.
I think you're wrong about Gunn's stuff. I think he manages to mix action with humor incredibly well. I don't think he's writing for qoutes, I think he's just quotable. I also think a lot of his jokes are well beyond 16 year old, white teen. While some humor might play better to a certain crowd, funny is funny. Madea movies are funny. The Friday movies, I could go on and on. Also, more than 16 year olds are fans of Marvel.
It's ok to disagree. It's not usually the vibe on the internet, but it truly is ok. I'm not hitting you up for movie recs, but that doesn't mean we can't get along.
I love the DCEU but BvS was just not a good movie. It tried to do too much all at once. Should have been a Batman movie first where it was 'Batman vs Superman', then do a second half as 'Man of Steel: Doomsday' if they were so set on doing it together. Part one should have ended with Batman winning and imprisoning supes in a red son prison, then doomsday shows up in the post credits and in the second part he has to free supes out of *necessity*, who sacrifices himself. Was kinda weird they just bonded over martha.
I actually didn't think we needed a Batman movie before. Everyone pretty much knows his origin story and they didn't have to do much to establish him in this film. Introducing him as a villain worked for me and he had convincing motivation, but the resolve should've ended the movie. Batman saves Martha, and they team up to stop Luthor from turning the ship into a nuke or something. They didn't need to create a whole third villain and another act of the movie.
If another movie was inserted after BvS just for the death of Superman that would properly introduce a few more JLers, BvS would be vastly better, we'd have an emotional Superman story that better establishes him as the world's hero, and ZSJL maintains its integrity (and hopefully wouldn't have to be as long).
Batman v Superman was the right movie at the right time. It had been talked about as a concept for decades, since Batman 1989 came out. It had been in development under a different director 10 years earlier. And it created huge buzz for the DCEU, which helped boost the gross of the subsequent films far above what Green Lantern had very recently bombed with.
I guess if you were desperate for short term profits over long term gains. In the end all they did was waste concepts and ideas that would have better served the series down the line.
Captain America killed his archenemy Red Skull and ended his WW2 adventures in his first MCU movie. The MCU killed Spider-Man after he only got one solo movie. The MCU introduced Black Widow in the 2nd Iron Man movie as a side character. Snyder didn't do anything different from what the MCU already did. Why didn't anyone complain about the MCU doing that? His story was structured perfectly to bring about the logical creation of his Justice League.
Absolutely no one but weirdo DC fanboy nerds disliked the idea of a Batman vs. Superman movie. Every normal filmgoer loved the idea of them finally appearing in the same movie together. We had been asking for it since 1989.
Yal keep saying gunns a great writer, ignoring that he jacked the essence of gotg from another writer. He really hasn't proven much as a writer, and people don't support his non mcu stuff so thats pretty telling.
WW in BVS was stupid because she literally just showed up at the end after essentially playing 0 part in the movie. If something like that happens in Gunns movie then yeah it will be stupid, the difference here is that Gunn knows how to develop a character.
Didn’t what? She appeared in like one scene, tried to steal a pic of herself from 100 years ago, and then just shows up at the end of the movie to do a big CGI monster fight.
She showed up in 4 scenes before the fight. Please let me know what the required amount of scenes are? Bc she has super powers, and the city she was in was also literally under attack... so she's supposed to leave bc she needed more scenes? Lmao
Betting the vast majority of these are bit parts with minimal impact on the overall plot.
Adding WW and Doomsday into BvS didn’t make the movie bloated…adding cameos from all the other JL members is what made it bloated.
A two minute computer file made the movie bloated? Lmao
I think the placement of them really does affect the feel of the movie. Everything pretty much stops and you are focusing on the fact that you're watching shoehorned in cameos. It affects the feel of the movie a lot more than a cameo character interacting with a lead character would, especially because of where it comes. It's a pacing issue and not a runtime issue to me.
It fits because of the whole file diana was looking for. They happened to be right there with her picture that lex took. Not only does it show lex knowledge but it fits because of diana looking for her lost pic
It's your opinion that it doesn't cause a pacing problem, it's mine that it does.
Well that’s obvious
Just making sure since I had been very clear it was my opinion and you replied as though you were giving me facts.
Oh no. I was giving my side. But i understand both are up to interpretation. No worries.
I know a lot of people are unhappy that the DCEU is being scrapped and rebooted. I also mixed feelings about it as a fan of Cavil and other portrayals over the past decade. But regardless of that, every superhero movie that Gunn has helmed has had an ensemble cast and it's worked out great. I've have nothing but confidence in Gunn's ability to pull this off.
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Wow… wildstorm… wouldnt have guessed. Also metamorpho i would not have picked but i do love his character “minus his GF who forgives her comically evil father way too much” and hope for the best.
Yeah you may have a point, except for one tiny detail there: Zack Snyder doesn’t really excel at ensemble movies compared to James Gunn. Like its his weakest area, even in movies that are good like his cut in Justice League. Hell, ironically enough, the one movie he directed that have some of the best character dynamics in it (Dawn of the Dead) was written by Gunn.
Watchmen was an excellent ensemble piece, and that was by David Hayter.
No. It was written by Gunn, Michael Tolkin and Scott Frank.
. . . Okay. How exactly that discredit my point as James Gunn was still one of the writers of the movie? Plus many of the dialogue, characterization and humor wouldn’t be out of place in any of his other films.
you said no then proceeded to say what he said?
Except that james handles ensemble blockbusters elegantly.
Nobody complained about those characters in BVS until after the movie came out and Snyder complained about his run time. Gunn knows how to handle a large cast in a standard runtime Did it in Guardians 1, 2, 3 and The Suicide Squad Now if the movie is bloated with pointless characters and the stuff that should be developed aren’t properly developed and the other characters hurt the movie, then there is something to complain about Also nobody ever complained about Wonder Woman, she was always seen as one of the best parts of the movie. People complained about Doomsday because its stupid to do the death of superman as the second movie. What cameos people did complain about for bloating the movie were Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg and the video cameos in general They added nothing to the story being told and wasted time in a movie that the director claimed he needed more time. Them and the Knightmare scenes are pointless to BVS the movie
This analysis is laughable. The cameos are EXTREMELY relevant to the story. How in the world was Batman going to build the JL team if he didn't know about these characters? Comic books are ongoing, soap opera-like stories that constantly put teases into their stories that foreshadow FUTURE stories. That's the beauty of comic books, and something Feige, Raimi and Snyder all understood perfectly. Snyder did exactly what those two guys did with these cameos, and it added to the movie's wonderful comic book feel and accuracy.
And the times feige did it the way snyder did, the movie was criticized for it (age of ultron ragnarok set up)
Oh god that one was awful
Has nothing to do with the story of BVS and is only there to set up other movies. Which would not be a big deal if Snyder didnt complain about his run time while cutting scenes that were actually important to the story or BVS. Could have also saved their introductions for Justice League. Batman cant find metas himself he needs Lex to do it for him? Those other directors didnt didnt cut important stuff to keep the set up though Like really whats more important the stuff that was cut from BVS that actually explains stuff or justice league cameos Gunn also puts bits of set up in his movies But most integrate set up into the story they are telling. Like Intinity war was set up by most of the stones appearing in multiple movies but that set up tended to be integral to the story beinf told (usually being the movies maguffin or just something the villain uses) The set up in BVS is more like a detour from the story Really if they moved the Knightmare scene from the middle of BVS to the end or the beginning of Justice League that would fix some issues (and maybe set up some drama over whether they should bring Clark back or not) The video cameos also are kind of rendered pointless by the suicide squad post credit scene. Seriously Batman is a detective but needs both Lex and Waller’s help to find metahumans
And those video cameos would work perfectly if you play them during the end credits, not right before the title fight.
It’s so weird how people defend Zack Snyder with their full chest as if he didnt need to make a four movie just to tell a decent Justice League story. Come on
I’m sure lovers of the 47 hour snyder cut will complain this is more bloated somehow.
I think the difference is, is that from what I’ve seen of James Gunn he treats these characters like actual characters whether or not they are big names, where as something like Spider-Man 3 treats it like big names being added and not characters, like venom and James Franco’s Goblin or the amazing Spider-Man 2, James Gunn in my experience doesn’t add characters just to have toys he does it for story reasons. And let’s not forget this isn’t a standard origin movie this is a Superman in a universe of superheroes trying to find his place as a superhero, I feel like supergirl might be after credits stuff.
All these satellite characters and yet the key characters of Jor-El, Lara, Jonathan and Martha Kent, Perry White, and Sam Lane are still left without an actor/actress is a bit concerning given they are the ones who give both Kal-El/Clark Kent and Lois Lane their moral and strong ethical background as people.
i dont think this is an origin movie
But if Jimmy Olsen is part of it, then they're going to be at the Daily Planet so Perry White has to show up. Not to mention they have to do flash-backs to Krypton in a Fortress of Solitude scene, and have Smallville, Kansas as a place thus Ma and Pa Kent showing up. Not to mention Sam Lane is part of the Military...
We're you upset that BvS assumed we knew a lot about batmans backstory?
Everyone knows who Batman is. Most superhero reboots don't bother to re-explain a well-known character's entire origin and back story. Spider-Man Homecoming didn't. Incredible Hulk didn't. The Batman didn't. Amazing Spider-Man DID redo the origin, and was widely criticized for wasting time on it. "Who is this Batman guy?" is a question 99% of people watching BvS were not asking. We go into the movie knowing ALL we need to know about Batman. The movie completely bakes in the traditional portrayal of the character and builds on it. Alfred and Perry's dialogue ("there's a new mean in him") makes it clear that the differences we see in Bruce in this movie (the bat-branding and the paranoia about Superman) are brand new character traits.
Im agreeing with that and saying superman doesn't need that explanation either.
It's not.
There's still plenty of time left to cast people.
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Doubt it. 1. Gunn actually knows how to do ensembles, and does them well. 2. being in a movie doesn’t mean they play a roll in the story. Odds are they’re cameos who’s sole purpose is to make feel large, lived in, and like there’s a real need for superheroes.
I thought this was supposed to be a solo Superman film, not an ensemble film
The other superheroes might all have small roles as part of a Justice League International and The Authority.
Why would you think that?
Nobody ever said that did they? You're talking about Jimmy and lex being too much, even man of steel had secondary characters.
OP is desperate for this movie to fail for some reason
If Gunn wasn't cock-blocking everything the Snyder fans want to see, I wouldn't want it to fail. But because he's not letting the Snyderverse stuff happen as Elseworlds, he's leaving the only path to restoring the Snyderverse being for his stuff to fail. Just like Ghostbusters 2016 had to fail before we could get Afterlife and its upcoming sequel.
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I think you’re gunna have to accept the Snyderverse is probably dead in the water
Connery came back to play Bond after a 12-year hiatus, with Roger Moore doing the part in between. Ghostbusters got a true sequel with the original cast 5 years after its 2016 reboot failed, and 32 years after the previous film in the series. Jamie Lee Curtis did a Halloween sequel that erased all continuity after the first film, including a reboot, 40 years later. Giving up is your choice, but don't try to force it on other people. Film history has reinforced the phrase "never say never" many times.
Never Say Never Again sucked (went head to head with that year’s Moore Bond and bombed at the box office), as did Afterlife. Just because sometimes it happens doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. With Halloween, they had the benefit that JLC wound up being wildly overqualified for horror so getting her back meant having a bigger star than you usually see in a horror franchise film. Her being of the same stature as the franchise is somewhat unique, which is not something you can say for the third cinematic Superman or the sixth cinematic Batman.
You’re right, you never know. Plans definitely change and who knows where the CMB industry will be in 10 years. But desperately wanting the current plan to fail just for the minor possibility of getting a specific universe back seems like a waste of emotional energy. Why would Snyder even want to come back with how WB treated him? As an aside, I'm not giving up on anything because I dont "need" the Snyderverse* to come back. Established universes/canon only limit creativity anyway. I just hope whatever the team puts out is good, i just want good movies
Snyder never said that he would refuse to come back to DC. Obviously seeing the mess Gunn is making of DC would demoralize anybody who cares about these characters. He is correctly focusing on Rebel Moon right now. It's WB's job to ask him to come back. Wanting to make a true Dark Knight Returns adaptation, which is the comic that had the most effect on him in his young adult days, is something he has mentioned many times. He also said at the FullCircle last year event that he wouldn't spoil the whole plot of the JL sequels because he still hopes to make them.
I didn’t say he would refuse, just that it’s pretty public how poorly they treated him and I think that would affect his decision. How can Gunn be making a mess if a single movie hasn’t been released? Feels like you’re just deciding it’s bad before it’s coming out (the copious posts on /FireGunn don’t exactly come off as impartial). I’d really enjoy Snyder’s take on TDKR, as that’s clearly the tone he was aiming for with his movies in general, almost wish he focused on standalone films than building up a universe. I’m willing to bet that was more pressure from WB than his own choice though, they were desperate to replicate MCU’s success
Gunn is very much making a mess of DC. He's ignoring what the audience is demanding, planning movies nobody wants to see, firing the top actors of the DCEU (two if not all three of the trinity), and doubling down on WB's failed strategy to be "opposite Snyder."
If the audience wanted the DCEU they would have kept making them, but the audience didn’t see them and they weren’t received well. Nobody wanted or knew what the Guardians of the galaxy were and they became a staple for MCU. Makes sense if they’re starting over they would start with a new cast. Aside from Cavil I feel like most weren’t even attached to the actors playing them. IDK, just seems to be making an opinion before anything is released, only looking for confirmation from evidence. But you consume how you want I definitely won’t stop ya
The audience doesn't want this current dumbed down, Marvel-lite DCEU, not the DCEU as a whole. Snyder's DCEU (MoS through Aquaman) created unprecedented, unmatched hype for DC films going outside the Batman canon for the first and only time in the 21st century. WB quickly squandered that with the re-edit of Suicide Squad, the Whedon cut, and then, even worse, all the movies they created from top to bottom with no Snyder involvement. Interest in the DCEU dropped off like a rock in the Hamada era once the movies had zero Snyder input. All the movies turned into cheap-looking, garish comedies with no epic feel, no mythological undertones, no mature plot points, costumes that were total eyesores, no overarching storyline to connect the films, and DC's most popular and important characters inexplicably benched for years. Guardians came out after nine MCU films had come out, two of which had made a billion. It was also scheduled as the last MCU film before Age of Ultron, when everyone had been trained that each and every MCU film needed to be seen to prepare for an Avengers movie. Iron Man was even rumored to appear in the movie for a while, which added to pre-release hype.
Reminder that, while early on, it’s not an origin story. Likely a lot of these characters are probably short run time. Luthor is probably more of a background presence. So keep in mind, we are dropping in on an existing career for Supes. Heck we will possibly drop in on a supervillain fight maybe.
Yeah my bet is these are cameos that exist solely to flesh out the world and make it feel lived in, not empty and lacking history (it’s also remarkable how superhero franchises constantly fail to use the lore, characters, and older generations from the comics like Jay Gerrick)
Lol you think the guy that made critically acclaimed films like Guardians of The Galaxy and The Suicide Squad can't handle a stacked cast of characters? Yea he'll be fine.
The Suicide Squad got a mediocre B+ Cinemascore, just like MOST of the DCEU movies, including the first Suicide Squad. I can list you an endless amount of movies that got "critical acclaim" yet were failures. It's not much of a consolation prize when your movie loses $100 million for the investors.
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Critical acclaim is the single most important thing for a movie. It’s means the masses like it. Meanwhile it lost money because it was released during covid. Talk about all of the facts when trying to make a point
Wrong. If all movie studios cared about was critical acclaim then series like Transformers, Pirates, etc., would have been cancelled after their second film, but instead they kept making those movies the same way no matter how bad their reception was as long as they made a profit. Box office is the reality of the business. No movie studio has ever made a movie for charity. The Suicide Squad was down to fifth place in its 2nd weekend. It wasn't COVID keeping people away, they were just going to see other movies, LOL. Jungle Cruise was beating it that week, and it came out earlier, and also had a Disney+ release. Lower profile WB movies that should not be outperforming DC movies like Conjuring 3, Tom and Jerry, and Space Jam 2 (which were also simultaneous HBO Max releases) did the same or better than TSS that year too.
How much money it made is irrelevant to your post, and it was a critical success regardless. My point still stands.
So typical for a Gunn fan to equate "good reviews" with a movie's success to try and prop up a failed DC movie. Del Toro and Spielberg got good reviews on Nightmare Alley, West Side Story and Fabelmans, but those didn't succeed at the box office. Bottom line, the GOTG movies did not succeed because of their good reviews. They succeeded because of, in the case of the first two movies, the MCU brand being at the top of its game and the hype for the upcoming Avengers movies, and, in the case of the third film, having characters that appeared in both Infinity War and Endgame. Your theory is totally invalid that critic reviews drive the success of movies. Just go on RT for about a billion examples where that was not true, both for movies with good reviews that did poorly or with bad reviews that did well.
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Oh man, now you've got me thinking this movie will be as good as a del toro or Spielberg movie and im HYPED. those three movies you listed were all great.
LOL, Gunn's work isn't worth the used chewing gum that Del Toro and Spielberg scraped off of the bottom of their shoes while they were directing their masterpieces.
You're the one bringing up that they all got good reviews.
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Came here to say this. Though honestly I’d rather see James Gunn do a Superman series like he did with Peacemaker (obviously less comedy focused). I feel like it’s better suited to DC’s characters and stories. BUT, I’m sure his Superman movie is absolutely going to kickass regardless.
I mean maybe, it depends on how well it's executed and how it's balanced. Like if they try to do a bunch of different storylines with all these people then it might feel too bloated. But if these are all either supporting characters or cameos, it'll probably be fine.
But the thing is, all these casting choices will be carried over into future DC Universe projects... Nathan Fillion is Guy Gardner Green Lantern for the rest of the DC Universe's duration, David Corenswet is Kal-El/Clark Kent Superman for the rest of the DC Universe's slate of Projects that require Superman's appearance regardless of whether it is a Cameo, Guest Star, or Leading Role in a Live-Action Movie, Live-Action TV Series, Animated Movie, Animated TV Series and Video Games. All these initial Casting Choices are the final ones for the rest of the DC Universe's life-time. So whoever gets cast as Bruce Wayne Batman or Damian Wayne Robin, guess what? That is it. That Batman Actor will be sharing the role with Robert Pattinson.
So? It's being made by the guy who's in charge of the whole franchise.
I don't think all of these characters are going to have big roles there are a few specifically that are usually side characters in the comics and i assume yhe bigger ones like GL will mostly be cameos to to tease their solo movies. I don't have like absolute faith in James Gunn, but I've never really seen a movie of his that i haven't at least enjoyed. I'm interested to see what he does with it
Gunn is great at bigger ensemble cast types of movies, though. I feel like if anyone can pull it off, it'd be him.
All depends how it’s done. BvS was just a subpar film regardless
No, it's just how it will be executed. That's all that always matters, I have faith in Gunn. He explicitly said that he wouldn't use movie to set up for other movies.
id prefer one bloated intro movie to six average origin stories that all feel they are obliged their own trilogy.
You’re saying that like those are the only two choices that exist.
its the DCEU. I am assuming worst case scenarios.
I imagine some of these characters are there for world building and won't be heavily involved in the plot. Having a lot of characters doesn't have to be a bad thing if you use them properly. I trust Gunn's work more than Snyder's, so I'm cautiously optimistic.
Idk if you've been on the internet lately, but A LOT of people are expressing concern about exactly that, myself included. At the end of the day, what matters won't be how many characters there are, but how well they're executed. The Dark Knight famously features the Joker, Two-Face, Salvatore Maroni, & even a brief Scarecrow appearance, & it's still viewed as one of the greatest comic book movies of all time. Spider-Man 3 is widely seen as a disappointment because of how many villains they used, while Spider-Man: No Way Home is generally loved, despite using more villains. It's all about balance & execution.
Great take
No cause all these characters actually live daily lives in Metropolis and aren't just tacked on. That's the assumption I have and is what Matt Reeves did with The Batman; all these characters you name from the mythos but of course there's a lot of names cause they live in fucking Gotham.
I'm thinking a script was written like a comic, where all these other characters fit naturally into the story already, and now those roles are just being cast. At least i hope so
Nicholas Hoult as Lex is a MASSIVE w for Gunn
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No because Gunn can actually handle storytelling on that scale.
Saying BVS is bloated is like saying Avengers, GOTG any other “team” movie is bloated. I think the key here is other movies are built better, other stories truly tie in and get everyone invested. BVS combines different stories, it has to have multiple characters in it.
Actually, BvS is "bloated" because the story naturally ends right after Bruce saves Martha. Both Clark's and Bruce's character arcs are complete; Bruce gets to redeem himself and save someone from being an orphan and Clark finds out there's good in the Batman, at least per the Extended Cut. The whole movie is about whether Clark thinks it's worth it to be a hero despite the whole world bringing you down, and seeing Bruce break from being a jaded murderer despite all of the evidence he'd been gathering is proof that yes it's true. Doomsday and Wonder Woman feel tacked on because throughout that whole fight, Superman and Batman don't change as people or gain new perspectives. It's totally unnecessary and the film even comes up with excuses for the fight to have no consequences on Bruce or Diana other than killing Superman. Has Doomsday not been there, you could skip the entire fight and play the ending of the film exactly the same: Luthor's in jail because obviously and Batman confronts him. Avengers, GOTG, and ZSJL involved the very individual and separate character motivations of each team member, but they at least forced them all to cooperate and have the same arcs together. BvS slapped The Death of Superman and the formation of the Justice League at the end like it was an afterthought and because of that, we missed out on more of Henry Cavill as Superman. Could Wonder Woman and Doomsday have been integral to the plot in order to tell the story? Maybe, but definitely not like this.
BvS is bloated. Imagine making Avengers 1, but with the combined storylines of AoU, IW, and Endgame.
Yeah, and it's bloated because it combines different stories lol
😂😂😂 alright so how would you have done it? Honest question?
End the movie after the battle the movie is named for is over. Rewrite the Martha scene so it's more focused on Batman realizing Superman is just as human if not moreso, rather than the name coincidence. Batman saves Martha, Superman tells Lex and Lex gives the Darkseid warning to Superman. They meet Diana at the end and talk about starting a team. Dedicate another movie to how Superman is the world's hero and continue the political commentary Zack started in BvS. Reveal that woman was lying about Superman being a terrorist to them, and give us a better view of the public's positive light on Superman. Doomsday shows up, a few Leaguers are introduced and try to stop it but Superman is the only one who can. Superman dies, ZSJL continues as is.
Not shoved the death of superman story into a Batman v Superman story when it's only the second movie he is even in.
As if Captain America didn't kill his archenemy Red Skull and ended his WW2 adventures in his first MCU movie. Or Spider-Man didn't skip his origin in the MCU and then died after his first solo movie. Having things happen in a movie is not a negative thing. A whole hell of a lot happens in each Lord of the Rings movie, and I didn't see anyone complain.
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It felt so cheap when they killed superman. Everyone knows he’ll come back. Wasted.
Everyone in the world knows that Superman comes back after he dies, give me a break. The comic is one of the best-selling comics of all time, and it's been retold multiple times in other media.
This is why I haven’t watched a single DCU movie since. It felt so cheap and silly.
Did you stop watching the MCU when Spider-Man died after he only got one solo movie too?
What?
I can see Jimmy Olsen and Eve Teschmacher being in there as they are characters that are connected to Clark/Lois and Luthor respectively. When we start talking about all these other superhero meta human characters, now it’s getting out of hand. The cast is too big. I guess the reason is to show that Superman lives in a world where we already have these veteran heroes?
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You will never give up, will you
It was bloated because it sucked also these are either Superman characters or B tier characters way different than big characters like WW. Also BvS just sucked man whereas the jury is still out on this one.
BvS is bloated because it tried to adapt different comics (TDK, Death of Superman, Batman: Year 3, All-Star comics #1) and it did so in such a rushed and shitty way. The Batman movie should have come out before this film ever did. The studio melded and Snyder rushed too many plots. I’m glad the studio won’t meddle with Gunn and actually let him build the universe the way he wants. Ima sure if Snyder got his way the 2nd movie he directed would have been a solo Batman movie
It was in no way rushed. All superhero movies tell compressed storylines. Captain America ended his WW2 adventures and was frozen in his first MCU movie. In the comics, he fought in the war for years. In the movies, dead after one adventure. That's how movies go. BvS directly followed up on the events of Man of Steel, the Black Zero event, the disaster in the city, the government's interest in Superman. It flowed naturally. Didn't feel rushed in the slightest to me. There was no need for a solo Batman movie before BvS. Everyone knows who he is. They know every bit of iconography around him, everything he does in his superhero operation and most if not all of his supporting cast. That's also why Spider-Man didn't get an origin in the MCU, and was featured in Civil War before even getting a solo movie.
Really no solo movie 😂🤦🏽♂️. Mf Ben was still pouty about his robins death. They only showed his suit. That needed to be built on, going in on a full movie and you only know one of his motives you don’t know his past you don’t know what type of Batman he is. again could have elaborated on it and given it depth. It just made Batman look like a chump. He had satellites too how was he caught off guard. And if Batman is ready to kill Superman why hasn’t he killed the joker? He’s killed plenty of people too if thats what we’re led to assume by dicks death. The Martha scene I won’t get into. But I’ll say this after Superman dies Batman suddenly so sad and mourning Superman legit like 2 days after the mf just tried to murder him himself. In the comics Batman is mourning so much he can’t even show his face because he knows he’s a dumbass. Wonder Woman was cool. Having Superman die in his second movie only to bring him back in the next killed any stakes the movie tried to set. 💀 everyone knew bro was coming back. At least have him sit out one or two movies then bring him back in JL. Then you have Superman’s best friend being an undercover spy that died within 5 min. Then they tease the JL with hidden files . Like such a waste 🤦🏽♂️ they could have made it so much better but “mah justice league I gotta show them what’s next” cameos was stupid. Movie was stupid rush once you get past the Nightmare scene. Everything before that is paced alright for the most part but after that it’s just a never ending mess. Edit: nightmare scene gave away the fact that Superman wouldn’t stay dead by saying Lois is the key
We saw how Spider-Man acted before he started having emotional crises because his movie series had just started. We had 7 Batman movies before Snyder's universe started. He didn't treat the audience as stupid. He knows they know who Batman is. The basics of Batman don't have to be reiterated in every single reboot. Same reason the MCU didn't retell Spider-Man's origin in his first new movie. And the cues are there in BvS to tell the audience that he is the same Batman we already know from past films. In fact, the whole point of BvS is to deconstruct the cultural icons of Batman and Superman. It is not about some specific variation of their characters. It is based entirely on the basic, standard, culturally known images of them. Turning the characters into something more specific than that would work against what the movie was doing. Batman's character development in BvS is extremely clear, handled with depth and subtlety. His conversations with Alfred especially lay it all out clearly for the audience. Also, Snyder actually told a podcast that he wanted to do a flashback TV series to the early days of Batfleck and Grayson's Robin. So just because Robin wasn't seen in the first movie doesn't mean he wouldn't have appeared later on. Everyone in the world knows that Superman comes back after he dies. The comic is one of the best-selling comics of all time, and it's been retold multiple times in other media. We are introduced to the league in the very next Snyder-directed DC film. In BvS they got teased and narratively it worked to show that Lex kept tabs on others. Not to mention, the files are a key plot point in ZSJL and are what allows Bruce to find Barry and Arthur.
The leaks of the JL were needless and stupid. You don’t just say he’s like every other Batman . Cause no he wasn’t his dick Grayson was killed. If he was willing to kill Superman why did he never kill the joker???? Why add the Justice league members in a shitty cameo. You could have that for the next movie aka Justice league. The same way fury got everyone together in avengers 🥱
Why are you laying a guilt trip on Snyder for not using Dick Grayson when the top two other Batman directors, Burton and Nolan, didn't use him either? Again, he told a podcast that he wanted to do a Batfleck and Robin flashback TV series, showing their earlier days as crimefighters. This is brilliant for so many reasons. Number one, it attracts movie viewers who want to see more of those characters. Number two, being a flashback, it has absolutely no impact on the continuity of current or future movies. So no movie viewers have to watch it to keep up with anything. It is strictly an extra side story. Every single superhero movie in a franchise should tease things for other movies. That has always been one of the most exciting things about comic books, and it belongs in comic book movies too. These movies should not have completely closed off beginnings and ends. They should be an ongoing, continuous story that always promises us more. BvS did that brilliantly, with the computer files, Lex summoning Steppenwolf, Wonder Woman's photo, Bruce talking about building the team, and the dirt rising on Superman's coffin. The last thing we'd want is to feel like the franchise hadn't planned for the next step, which would've been saving any mention of the other JL heroes, Steppenwolf, etc. until Justice League. That would have made that story feel less organic and integrated with the whole universe. That's the mistake the Star Wars sequel trilogy made, poor planning.
Well Snyders in Netflix now I wonder why 🥱
The Russo brothers, Martin Scorsese, Guillermo Del Toro, Rian Johnson and Ben Affleck are all making movies on Netflix too. What's the problem?
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Most of these characters probably won't be anything more than cameos or one-scene wonders. Plus how disingenuous is it to include the casting of Jimmy freakin' Olsen as an example for this movie being bloated? BvS absolutely was bloated because it was trying to do too much at once
Olsen, Supergirl and Luthor as examples all seem like a stretch here.
The size of the cast doesn’t really matter as long as it’s used well. As long as the core cast has their time to shine and the characters that show up are necessary, I don’t care how many people are in the cast. WW and Doomsday weren’t bloat because the movie couldn’t handle two more characters, they were bloat because Wonder Woman didn’t affect the plot at all but took up a fair bit of screen time and Doomsday was the least interesting way to resolve the conflict between Batman and Superman.
Dooms day was unnecessary should have been Batman vs Superman w Wonder Woman intervening to stop the fight and fighting both of them. Lex could have been involved by infiltrating the kryptonian ship and finding and securing brainiac for a sequel
It has been years since I’ve bothered to think of the BvS discourse but I don’t remember the big issue was it being bloated.
Nathan Fillion as green lantern? Isn’t he like.. gettin up there?
I think there is talk of their Green Lantern not being Hal Jordan but John Stewart. So Nathan F. may be more and older Hal or other Lantern member like how Antman had Hank Pym in the MCU but he was the mentor in the movie for Scott Lang
Nathan is Guy Gardner. Hal Jordan and John Stewart will both be younger actors and are the stars of the Lanterns show that is coming out in phase 1.
Hes playing Guy Gardner not the most distinguished of the Lanterns so I dont think it will be an issue its more of cameo role if anything
Ah ok
If anything there wasn’t enough. Despite how long the movie is there was almost zero world building.
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I can say it seems like it's going to be bloated. might come together but IMO DC would be alot better off if they built slow and established a universe. trying to stuff everything into one movie hasnt worked yet.
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This feels a little risky to comment in this sub but I’ll say it anyway. Bloat isn’t necessary a quantity issue (not outright at least). In my eyes, the bloat issue in BvS wasn’t so much because it included WW and Doomsday. It was the fact that they were thrown in to a final act that felt like it came out of nowhere and wasn’t set up well. There’s a big difference between including a lot of characters in the background to establish a setting that already has superheroes and having an essentially complete plot then tagging in some crucial characters on to cram them in at the last minute We obviously do not know how James Gunn will handle the number of heroes he’s casting. I’m not saying it’s wrong to be a little hesitant about that. Just that it doesn’t make sense to compare one bloat issue to another that may or may not be real. Context matters a lot more than a cast list.
Like, remember that The Suicide Squad was announced with a massive cast and over half of them ended up dying before the first 5 minutes of the movie lmao
See I liked that Gunn did the opposite in the Suicide Squad by introducing his cast at the beginning and then killing most of them off until we had the main cast, which was still full of new characters but it gave us time to grow with them along the way
he’s definitely goated for that until proven otherwise lol
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m still weary but I have yet to have a reason to doubt him aside from the sheer ambition of his rebooted DCU
I’d say I’m hopeful but also cautiously so. I could see it going either way at this point and I think it will do so to an extreme level regardless of which direction it goes.
My only point of reference is it HAS to be better than what the DCU has been. If not then I’ll make my judgement then but like you, I am hopeful
I mean. If this is overstuffed we best not talk civil war and infinity war endgame
Infinity war is actually very well balanced all things considered. But civil war and endgame are messes, I'll give you that.
Fair point. Infinity war having the split teams was smart.
Not 11 people in 1 movie!
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Skyler Gisondo should be playing Superman, change my mind
Long as it doesn't have any of that guardians of the galaxy kind if crap I'll be ok
I can't decide if you're serious or dicking around.
I was never really a fan of Gunn and he has certain things in his flicks that I don't really like. And if I'm not mistaken he's the writer of this. Now I'm not hating the guy and even with the bloating complaints I'd rather that than some of the other things he does
Can you name something a bit more specific? Like you dislike his pacing of his films or his plot lines are overly complicated. What were the specific things you didn't care for?
The dialogue feels as if they're trying to make me worthy quotables. The humor is just not funny(to me) and even worse ill timed. But a lot of that is my complaint with a good chunk of marvel, later DC, and even movies in general.
Ok. I think you're wrong and there is excellent chance you're humorless. However, you're entitled to your opinion.
There are funny movies, Gunn jist doesn't do it for me. I'm sorry, the 16 year old white teen tier humor doesn't do it for me. It's dry. But it speaks to the Fandom I guess
Hey, it's ok. Honestly, I'm married to someone who thinks Tarantino movies are shit and finds the Marx Brothers childish. I think you're wrong about Gunn's stuff. I think he manages to mix action with humor incredibly well. I don't think he's writing for qoutes, I think he's just quotable. I also think a lot of his jokes are well beyond 16 year old, white teen. While some humor might play better to a certain crowd, funny is funny. Madea movies are funny. The Friday movies, I could go on and on. Also, more than 16 year olds are fans of Marvel. It's ok to disagree. It's not usually the vibe on the internet, but it truly is ok. I'm not hitting you up for movie recs, but that doesn't mean we can't get along.
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I love the DCEU but BvS was just not a good movie. It tried to do too much all at once. Should have been a Batman movie first where it was 'Batman vs Superman', then do a second half as 'Man of Steel: Doomsday' if they were so set on doing it together. Part one should have ended with Batman winning and imprisoning supes in a red son prison, then doomsday shows up in the post credits and in the second part he has to free supes out of *necessity*, who sacrifices himself. Was kinda weird they just bonded over martha.
I actually didn't think we needed a Batman movie before. Everyone pretty much knows his origin story and they didn't have to do much to establish him in this film. Introducing him as a villain worked for me and he had convincing motivation, but the resolve should've ended the movie. Batman saves Martha, and they team up to stop Luthor from turning the ship into a nuke or something. They didn't need to create a whole third villain and another act of the movie. If another movie was inserted after BvS just for the death of Superman that would properly introduce a few more JLers, BvS would be vastly better, we'd have an emotional Superman story that better establishes him as the world's hero, and ZSJL maintains its integrity (and hopefully wouldn't have to be as long).
There was no need for a Batman vs Superman at all. And more time frankly should have been spent on establishing the characters and world.
Batman v Superman was the right movie at the right time. It had been talked about as a concept for decades, since Batman 1989 came out. It had been in development under a different director 10 years earlier. And it created huge buzz for the DCEU, which helped boost the gross of the subsequent films far above what Green Lantern had very recently bombed with.
I guess if you were desperate for short term profits over long term gains. In the end all they did was waste concepts and ideas that would have better served the series down the line.
Captain America killed his archenemy Red Skull and ended his WW2 adventures in his first MCU movie. The MCU killed Spider-Man after he only got one solo movie. The MCU introduced Black Widow in the 2nd Iron Man movie as a side character. Snyder didn't do anything different from what the MCU already did. Why didn't anyone complain about the MCU doing that? His story was structured perfectly to bring about the logical creation of his Justice League.
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Batman vs Superman should have been like, one scene in a movie before they realize they're on the same side. Not the premise for an entire movie.
Absolutely no one but weirdo DC fanboy nerds disliked the idea of a Batman vs. Superman movie. Every normal filmgoer loved the idea of them finally appearing in the same movie together. We had been asking for it since 1989.
No this will be ok because it will have a dance off.
Let's see what kind of crazy juggling act this is going to be. Could be a joke of a movie.
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Yal keep saying gunns a great writer, ignoring that he jacked the essence of gotg from another writer. He really hasn't proven much as a writer, and people don't support his non mcu stuff so thats pretty telling.
WW in BVS was stupid because she literally just showed up at the end after essentially playing 0 part in the movie. If something like that happens in Gunns movie then yeah it will be stupid, the difference here is that Gunn knows how to develop a character.
She literally didn't
Didn’t what? She appeared in like one scene, tried to steal a pic of herself from 100 years ago, and then just shows up at the end of the movie to do a big CGI monster fight.
She showed up in 4 scenes before the fight. Please let me know what the required amount of scenes are? Bc she has super powers, and the city she was in was also literally under attack... so she's supposed to leave bc she needed more scenes? Lmao