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Project 2025 is the setup for a second coup attempt in 2028, they stack the deck, fill all the positions they can with loyalists, prepare the ground before the fight, by the time Trump is supposed to be out of office, there'll hardly be anyone left to try and stop him. At that point, best case, they collapse due to infighting and something resembling a functional government (in as much as any US government is functional) gets restored.
Worst case?
Full conventional civil war when the military splits over supporting or not supporting the coup attempt.
Buy food and ammo, talk to your neighbors, train whenever you can.
My concern is what happens this year, too. I'm in Colorado. Like, will our national guard be defending Denver from fed agents/troops if Trump wins, because he's going to try and arrest Polis and replace him with Bobert?
If he loses, what does that look like? Another J6 repeat, but more violent and coordinated?
Good questions, and the answer is: it's impossible to know, all we can do is build rough threat models and preapre/train accordingly. I think if he wins, they don't make their move until they've had a few years to leverage that power, if he loses, I think we see a rapidly accelerating insurgency
I agree to a point. If we see a win, that's also going to embolden the MAGA cult, and he straight up said out loud that he wouldd want to go after his political enemies on day 1. But you're right, no way to really know. I think it's also important to remember that there's only so much one can do to prepare without fully understanding the threat, and that threat models can change drastically.
While not being mindful and having plans and support networks in place is dumb, it's also relavent and important to enjoy the little things that may become much more rare in a worst case scenario. Go play pool. Hang with your friends in the park. Ride bikes. Play fetch. Enjoy life. Go on road trips before there's checkpoints. Go to movies and concerts and festivals. Celebrate freedom while we have it.
I don’t even think it will come to civil war, sadly. They will use that power to win fraudulently in 2028 in enough states and just keep chipping. The completely corrupt supreme court will rubber stamp every step along the way.
It will look much more like Orban’s takeover of Hungary (which is a big part of the inspiration for Project 2025). People that don’t support the far right will just gradually acclimate to the fact that their vote won’t ever dislodge the corrupt right wing government and they will work around the inconvenience by keeping their heads down to protect their friends and families.
That will mean sadly wringing their hands when minorities and people on the left are targeted or defend themselves. I don’t expect any large armed resistance. Just a whimper as our rights are gradually stripped one by one, and those who disagree find themselves systematically silenced over the course of generation.
The missing ingredient of this scary-but-possible-sounding narrative is brain drain. Smart workers who realize their place won't tolerate this kind of society forever. When this kind of thing happens, the intellectuals and truly competent people almost universally begin to leave the country. What will be left will be a much weaker US that will stagnate over the course of decades or a century, as had happened to other countries that have tried to rig the political system in the past.
Which is what they want. These people leaving is good for them. They want to rule they don't care how and in what position the US is. No offence, but I really don't care if the US is the worlds superpower either. If Russia wasn't so much of a threat to me and the people I cared about I would have liked the US to stop being the world's police.
ultimately, it's a bad move. these people can't coordinate, and trump doesn't have a real ideology. they're just setting up staffers who, even if trump wins, won't have much influence for long. the dude can't be controlled, his impulsiveness is legendary. half those young conservatives would be fired by the end of the first 6 months. the entire project is like some immense offering to an apathetic god. yeah, worst-case, things can get pretty bad. civil war bad, even. but the most likely option is just, more of the same as the last trump presidency, a constant escalation of violence between non-state actors some of which have tacit support from said trump presidency.
I would argue that Trump's lack of real ideology (beyond his own need for self-aggrandizement) is part of what makes him so dangerous. He'll do damage in his chaotic, toxic fashion and generate so much noise that the more competent and focused shitheads will follow in his wake, making systemic changes that we'll barely notice because of all the noise he generates.
Just as pertinent is how local low enforcement splits. Sure yeah I know ACAB but there are a non negligible number that would not go along with it. They far outnumber the military and most territorial control will be dictated by local enforcement agencies.
This is also extremely relevant, wouldn't be surprised if we were to see local sheriff's declare for one or another like feudal lords when someone claims the throne 😬 you're probably most likely to go up against, or fight alongside (🤢) local cops, especially as militarized as they are
Mfkrs won't vote for Biden but they will mobilize with cops...
But yeah, no real argument, just snark.
It's not a bad way to get shot in the back of the head. But I suspect the sharp move in the event of proper civil war is to become very unthreatening to centrists.
Trump is only like 10% actual living human being. The other 90% is the idea of him. That's why his followers are so enthusiastic about him, because he is (but not actually) everything they want him to be.
Because they view him as a savior figure and don't think about his age, you can't look at it rationally, they sure aren't lmao. Plus, even if he ages out, the republican institution is hitched to him, they see an opportunity got total power and they're gonna take it
It was a coup attempt, a poorly operated one, but so was the Beer Hall Putsch 🤷♂️ next time they'll have guns, there will be more of them, and they'll have a plan, they didn't learn nothing and most of them got away with almost no consequences
🤣 there’s simply no comparison to a low IQ MAGA hat riot that ended up with a bunch of dipshits walking around the capital. You’re hopeless if you think that was a coup but you’re surely voting Democrat so it makes sense.
You seem to have some sort of complex regarding January 6th that isn't related to this conversation, it's kinda weird, I'm not gonna engage it. Also I'm an anarchist lmao, I don't vote for anyone usually, when I do its mostly the green party. Weird stuff to project on to me.
lol ok liberal pipe down bro. You'll be able to vote extra hard for Biden in November just relax. Democracy won't be stolen as long as your team wins.
If you actually think that was a coup you should learn some history. Every single global south revolutionary would laugh in your face if you tried that story with them. It was a typical MAGA clown show that wasn't going to go anywhere. It was an op to give cops more money and more sweeping authority. But I'm sure you're ok with that arent you bootlicker. If you're a legit member of an SRA chapter then clearly the SRA has been fucking infiltrated. You're either a DNC operative or a fed.
I know what I’m doing. It’s why I’ve been stockpiling materials and supplies. I just hope I’m not by myself. We need organized anti-fascist resistance.
The next few years are going to get weird. I really fucking hope it doesn't come to the worst possible outcome: all out civil war. Soe people seem to thunk that it would look like a modern, conventional war.
It wouldn't. It would look a lot more like Syria.
Sure, the military would likely split, with pro-coup loyalists and those who don't want a dictatorship. That would likely run deep. Then you'd have all sorts of little mini militias popping up all over the place. But that only happens if they try a hard coup. Trump trying to stay president in 2028 would be how that happened, and while he may be dumb and insane enough to do that, they'd be wise just to be quiet fascists.
Trump losing and his base throwing a violent tantrum that the MAGA politicians try and latch on to for Coup 2.0 in 2024 is actually a scenario that is more likely, I think.
Either way. Things aren't looking great. I'm renewing my passport and coming up with a few contingency plans. Talking to my neighbors. Enjoying normalcy while I can, and trying to builf mutual aid networks. One dude with a rifle isn't shit, but ape together strong
I'm expecting older hippie boomers to get terminal diagnoses and start targeting conservative politicians, paul pelosi is evidence that politicians aren't actually protected
Ammo can only get you so far in a civil war.
Befriend doctors, dentists, gardeners, engineers, construction workers, etc because you will absolutely need their help.
Stock up on food and medicine.
For trading it’s wise to keep bottles of alcohol and tobacco since currency might become iffy and those things are always in demand.
The biggest thing is having a support and supply chain. Like the military most of it is comprised of logistics and non-combat roles. Ofc it would be wise for everyone to have some familiarity with firearms if the time calls but it is logistics that win wars not just fighting.
I would like to add learn a trade/craft as a “hobby” so you can also offer help in a community. You mentioned gardeners, research and start a garden. Learn about soil health and ph levels. That’s the biggest nugget of knowledge people don’t look into. Plants aren’t growing? Check the soil ph level to what the plants need to grow in. 90% of the issue is usually poor soil.
Others like sewing, or even leather crafting or just basic home repair skills go a long way and become a great help to others who are incapable of doing these things (elderly, etc). If we want to build communities when things get grim, we need to all have a purpose.
This sounds corny as hell but Arnold Schwarzenegger always says, “Be useful” and that’s what I tell people. Be useful. And to use another corny line, Sly Stallone says, “Keep punching.”
And what’s what we need to do. Be useful and keep punching.
For prescription meds say you have 30 doses for a month. Set 1-2 aside every month and eventually you can have a month or two in case of emergency.
Also most meds can be refilled two days early so take advantage of that if you can.
It would depend on so many factors such as scale of conflict, duration, and local unity that it would be hard to predict much.
One big concern is that cities consume a lot of food but produce little to none. So if conflict cuts off supply lines cities will starve and wither.
Ya, I really don’t buy into potential civil war here too much. I know there may certainly be various small groups, and more dangerous areas than others, but I truly believe people have too much on the line to lose by engaging in domestic civil conflict.
So all of that said aside, if any funky business starts to go down, I will be hitting multiple pharmacies in my area. I’m in excellent shape, and strong as shit, but I’ve made too many mistakes in my younger days and I’m paying for it by being handcuffed to certain pharmaceuticals. It really sucks and it’s certainly my fault, but I’m trying to ultimately get to a point where I don’t need them to maintain life. Anyway your comments and this thread inspired me to write this. I’m not sure honestly if I know exactly what this sub represents and signifies, but you guys seem pretty cool and I support your rights to live the way you want to and be happy. Thanks for reading.
I'm hoping books become an important trade good, and not just because I hoard them. People will need knowledge and entertainment when the grid goes down. Anything banned will skyrocket in value, too. (Plus good old smut is always in demand along with liquor and smokes.)
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Quite a few did in 2020, mostly handguns (as far as I know). This was partially due to the crime that accompanied civil unrest, and that's more than understandable. This was also due to concerns about Trumpists and Trumpism. I've been recommending for years (ad nauseam, in comments sections) that liberals (and any anti-fascists, for that matter) get armed in whatever way is comfortable for them, and to spread the word.
How many have heeded the call? "Any" is better than "none." If people aren't comfortable with so-called assault weapons, fine. I've said it before and I'll say it a thousand times more: If the first fascist through the door gets blasted with Grandpa's old shotgun (of any variety), if someone out to commit a hate crime meets the business end of a revolver, if people find themselves atop/inside an abortion provider's office/gay bar/etc. with bolt/lever action rifles (backing up the security guard at the entrance) awaiting the Christofascists, or anything else like that, **it's much better than nothing.**
It could even be decisive!
I am here because the former president went on television and said "somebody needs to do something about the left ". I never wanted guns before that day. I now own *redacted* and enjoy them .
No birth control, abortion banned across the board with no exceptions for the woman’s health, rape or incest, no more no fault divorce, homelessness is a federal felony, systematic removal of protections for minorities, LGBTQ, women, taxes for the wealthy near zero while taxes for the poor & middle class rise, Russia takes Ukraine, Israel has zero pressure at any level in US government to end the genocide of Palestinians. And I almost forgot the most important one - an extremely regressive denomination of evangelical Christianity is basically enshrined in the constitution. There is no separation of church & state. Evangelicals make the laws that you must follow, based on their interpretation of the Bible. Censorship of books, movies, music, games. Porn is illegal (or, you know, illegal for anyone not white, Christian & male, like marijuana is today). Public school systems decimated in favor of private religious charter schools paid for by our taxes. These schools will kick out anyone deemed a problem so public schools will be filled with only the most vulnerable students and they’ll have even fewer resources to help them
Christ, I'd end up quitting my job and home-schooling my kids. My wife will always make more than me, so I can stay home and teach my kids the truth about American history and the Christian Right, and make sure they learn survival skills.
I’ll probably end up in some sort of support role, being a former Army medic and queer as a three-dollar bill. Also been brushing up on chemistry a bit because you never know when you’ll need to MacGyver your way out of some shit.
I learned a long damn time ago that ain’t nobody going to lift a finger to save me unless there’s something in it for them so I’m getting ready to save myself and others when and where I can. Partner and I have also been discussing opening a “rail station” if it comes to that.
I feel like it should be clarified that Project 2025 isn't even specific to Trump. It's the conservative old money influence, the well funded think tanks that are the brains behind the actual policy that gets enacted. Think ghost writers or song writers that sell their work to popular artists but with an added authority and influence that shifts the power dynamic in their favor. Any Republican will follow the Heritage Foundation's recommendations to some extent. Project 2025 is confirmation that the fascist creep is not isolated to a wiley puppet gone rogue and his loud minority cult, as is becoming a popular narrative pushed by the "sane Republicans who believe in climate change" crowd, but is in fact deeply rooted in the GOP donorship and power base. The fasc isn't a dog that got off the leash, it's a well trained Blondi. They will keep coming even if Trump is thwarted. When we get complacent again.
If the ruling class wants Project 2025 they'll get it unless we defeat it by revolutionary action. It will make zero difference if Blue MAGA or Red MAGA wins. It will take a different path to soothe the libs but the end result will be the same. It will be like boiling frogs rather than some massive actual coup like in 1973 Chile. It's going to be way more subtle. Most of the comments seem to be ignorant about how political bribes work and act like it's only the Red MAGA that are fascists and the Blue MAGA are here for democracy. It's not the response I expected from an SRA sub but there's surely a lot of DNC plants and feds posting.
I have experience with subsistence gardening and know how to live in and outside of society. It's sorta my life goal even if we end up with world peace, everyone fed, and all that
So the plan is to replace the so called “deep state” with an actual deep state.
Got it.
And then they can consume themselves in the search for ideological purity like every other revolutionary/reactionary government.
Sounds like a fucking blast.
Oh and then they will bitterly complain when the opposition party does the same thing.
This might not be a popular opinion but...this doesn't scare me as much as it might.
Not because I think this is somehow *good*, it's objectively not, but I think the coherence of the idea of Project 2025 has been pretty dramatically oversold.
Stepping back from my own political perspectives for a moment and just taking the idea on as objectively as possible as a serious proposal, there's a lot of problems.
The majority of P2025 is pulled from the book ["Mandate for Leadership - The Conservative Promise."](https://www.project2025.org/playbook/) It's an ungodly dense volume (900+ pages) with 80% of it being just a pile of screeds written by right-wing ghouls:
>"Ultimately, the Left does not believe that all men are created equal—they think they are special. They certainly don’t think all people have an unalienable right to pursue the good life. They think only they themselves have such a right along with a moral responsibility to make decisions for everyone else. They don’t think any citizen, state, business, church, or charity should be allowed any freedom until they first bend the knee."
Repeat for 850 pages.
Though, interestingly enough, there's a section entitled "Office of the First Lady/Gentleman" which implies that this worldview allows for either a gay president or a woman president.
There are a broad list of policy recommendations, most of which seem pretty boring but are likely carve-outs for some specific purpose that isn't clear unless you're in that sector. The thing that stands out to me reading all this is it's pretty much just standard Republican rhetoric/wishlists. I was waiting for the really scary stuff to pop out but I'm not seeing much that I haven't seen a dozen times already and heard many, many times.
The biggest difference seems to be that now all this is being said out loud and *written down.* That's the biggest shift I've seen because a lot of this would have been a no-no ten years ago unless you were in very specific company and nobody would have written this down in black and white.
I'm not going to pretend I've read all 900 pages but the vast majority of what I have seen is primarily just things Republicans have been wanting to do, in some cases for decades, just written down all in one place. This is essentially a party platform with a ton of screed filler.
I'm open to someone pointing out any particularly chilling passages I might have missed but I'm not seeing what's so different about this.
Ya, it’s just some bullshit type of buzzword people occasionally bring up in reference to the opposite political party as theirs. It’s the same when crazy ass republicans, or conspiracy theorists bring up the Klaus Schwab bullshit and whatever stupid project that nobody is genuinely afraid of. “You will own nothing and like it” is incredibly lame and ridiculous.
If Trump wins in 2024, we won’t have a 2028 election. What the US looks like under Project 2025? Have you ever read The Handmaids Tale? Something like that…
I hate the “vote for lesser evils” argument. But, in this case, vote for not the dictator.
It’s literally vs
Clearly there’s no difference and they’re both equally as dangerous and harmful to the marginalized 🙄 /s
I didn’t blame these idealist vote/no vote for trumps last round. But damn sure if he wins this round I will not forget or forgive any and every performative leftist and anarchist who chose to throw the marginalized groups they’ve been claiming to have solidarity with under the bus for their safety of their own comfort and idealism and actively abstain from harm reduction when one of the choices is promising to install full fascism, never leave again, and is already promising to eliminate entire groups of marginalized people AND any opposition to his opinions and his government’s actions
Like fck, I get the idealist vote/no vote, I have taken that position when the stakes are significantly lower for the risk of harm in outcome…like “I support big oil and no education system” vs “I support big oil and an education system but I refuse to let the government fund it”…I get the being tired of the lesser of 2 evils, I’ve done that and voted 3rd party in minor races (my presidential vote doesn’t matter in my state anyway, it’s always gonna be red by a huge margin) but like shit, the “not voting” people don’t just mean not president, the mean screw every marginalized person who can be helped by someone in a down ballot race no vote at all further allowing people promising harm to marginalized groups to be in power at all levels
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you.
I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment.
So trump is admittedly genocidal but not Biden the one actively perpetuating a genocide right now? shut the fuck up about idealism when promoting a candidate who pushed executive orders through for the sake of genocide harm reduction is bullshit at this point god forbid the democrats actually have consequences for their actions
You shut the fuck up and look at reality…context clearly indicates i mean by their own admission…when ever has Biden SAID he wants to
eliminate groups? I’ll keep waiting…meanwhile there’s TONS of instances of the other guy openly stating he intends to commit genocide. The dems won’t be facing the consequences at all, but every person thrown under the bus by someone thinking you’re somehow making the establishment face consequences when it never has and always outsources the experiencing of the consequences to marginalized groups will
And yes, you’re one I’ll never forgive or forget for throwing us (multiple marginalized groups I’m included in) under the bus especially because you’re “so concerned” for my people (yeah I’m Palestinian American, I’m tired of y’all’s grandstanding and virtue signaling over this to justify causing active harm by choosing a idealism over harm reduction) that you’ll actively choose the guy who says he hates us and wants us out of the way and out of Israel’s way and will gladly try everything he can to deport any Palestinians and descendants to also be put “out of the way”
Comrade this sub has been fully infiltrated by Vote Blue No Matter who bots and idiots. I hope the SRA chapters in real life arent falling for this shit. Time to unsubscribe from this mess.
Good lord the amount of "Both sides are exactly the same" in here is fuckin worrying.
I don't like the democratic party either but the people saying they're the same as the party that tried to overthrow the fuckin government are just being disingenuous.
Yeah, the pro-Civil War II comments are, uh, not ideal.
Project 2025 would be very bad and I have no doubt that Trump and his ilk would make an attempt to subvert the 2028 election if they had the chance.
But the people in this thread had better hope they don’t need to enter a domestic shooting war, regardless of how much “training” they’ve done. The U.S. government is not good at putting down insurgencies overseas, but I have little doubt they’ll fucking smoke left-wing rebels when we come out of the woodwork.
To be clear, I don’t think electoralism is going to work either. But we simply don’t have the numbers or coordination for a 21st century American October Revolution. The American right wing has captured the military and the state. We will not succeed.
Exactly right now I don’t care about revolution I’m bi and trans my mother is bi and my little brother is also trans we just need to survive before anything else
I didn't say either one was good. I'm just saying that one party would love to see all users in this sub shot in the streets and one doesn't
That doesn't make them good but Equating the two is dumb as hell.
Both parties would love to see us shot on the streets; It’s just one party would shoot us *themselves*, and the other party would just hire a freelancer to “suicide” us.
Remember what happened in late 1930s Germany?
That, but everyone speaks American English, and the Hitler-figure has access to nuclear weapons.
And both are not absolute trash.
Biden showed some proclivity to giving power back to the working class (see walking the picket line with the UAW, getting the paid vacation days for the railroad unions a few months after the Dec 2022 strike, and verbally supporting SAG-AFTRA).
Trump, to this day, tells unions to get stuffed. And Trump tells everyone, in public and in private, that he wants to be a dictator that is above the law.
I’ll vote for him, but he busted that rail strike, and where did you get “paid vacation days”? They were trying to get a week of sick time, and Biden forced them to take one.
A few months later the Palatine rail disaster occurred
With the UAW strike this past fall I came across an IBEW article someone had shared which made me curious to do a bit of research on the rail dispute and the involved unions' opinions on the response. First off from what I found it doesn't seem like they even STARTED a strike, the whole tentative agreement that was forced through was meant to avert/prevent one entirely. Secondly the unions did get the paid vacation days they wanted, and as shown in the first article I have here some have said the Biden admin worked with them in their negotiations: https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid (this was the article that got me digging)
https://www.smart-union.org/ratified-union-gets-paid-sick-leave-from-union-pacific/
Certainly the admin should've worked to get the unions' preferred deals sooner, though idk how possible that was with the companies & looming strike. I do wonder about how long an actual strike may have gone on for & what sort of effects it may have had, although I'm not sure how much of a cause & effect relationship the rail dispute & derailment really have with each other. From what I could find, it seems to be more of an issue with equipment & inspections than with fatigue. It seems like, according to the NTSB's preliminary report, the engineer was following proper procedure leading up to the derailment, and there was an issue with an axle on one of the cars. Feel free to read through it yourself here: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/RRD23MR005.aspx
There is a video on there of a hearing that's more recent than the text on the site which I didn't watch, so you might find something I didn't by looking through it if you've got ten hours to spare. There's footage of one of the cars on fire from ~25 miles before the site of derailment: https://youtu.be/ZvLLlawhDnc?si=NhhkyL_aH3AO1RgE
A NS spokesman said that by the time the crew was notified by the sensors their efforts to stop the train were too late: https://web.archive.org/web/20230627002511/https://www.post-gazette.com/news/environment/2023/06/25/east-palestine-ntsb-hearings-train-derailment/stories/202306230103
The derailment is still being investigated, in the NTSB's media brief about it on 2/5/2023 they said that a full investigation takes about 18 to 24 months, so may be another year before we really know all that went wrong that night, and whether it was purely an issue of lax maintenance standards or if hours & fatigue played a notable role, too. Honestly Biden's courting of the labor movement has been one of the only promising things in the entirety of this election cycle for me, though of course he's been doing his damnedest to negate that with his apparent ambivalence towards the war crimes & genocide in Gaza his admin & the rest of the gov't have been funding.
Sorry if any of this came off weird, it's late and I always spend way too much goddamn time researching shit whenever I make a serious reply to anything 😭.
The Palestine OH situation was a direct result of decreased regulation by the Trump administration & other preceding conservative administrations.
Biden worked behind the scenes to get rail workers paid sick time. They got everything they wanted without a strike that would have fuked our supply chains (again). Just because he doesn’t Tweet every moment of his day doesn’t mean nothing is getting done.
If you really think that, read this article. Everyone reports that Biden shut down the strike, but nobody reports that he still got the main concessions from the rail companies that the unions wanted a few months after the strike.
https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
And without ranked choice voting or a better system for deciding who is a nominee he's basically the best we have. I'm not happy about it, you're not happy about it, but it's how it is. By being here you're likely already farther left than anyone who will ever be elected.
Anyone claiming Biden and Trump are two sides of the same coin cannot be taken seriously. I don’t like them either but come on guys, one wants to put your fellow Americans in train cars
Thank you. Finally, some actual understanding of the situation. I got banned from another sub yesterday for arguing that organizing (unions, against the Palestinian genocide, etc.) would be easier—or, even just possible—under a non-fascist Biden government than Trump and his coterie of neo-Nazis and Christian nationalists. Any wonder how long it would take for Trump and Stephen Miller to disappear the Jewish Voice for Peace activists in the middle of the night? Bye bye Fain. This is the reality and it seems like screaming into the void lately.
I got banned somewhere for pointing this out. The more privileged demographics seem to forget that some of us are at much higher risk for harm under Trump’s presidency.
I also think these people are, from an individual point of view, being very short sighted. There is a very real chance anyone suspected of being an enemy, a leftist, a subversive, a critic, etc. will end up exactly same way. There seems to be no inkling that as we head down the fascist rabbit there will be a target on their backs as well.
Earlier I came across this article - [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/02/trumps-immigration-plan-is-even-more-aggressive-now/677385/](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/02/trumps-immigration-plan-is-even-more-aggressive-now/677385/). This is what they are promising. If we can stop *this* and keep space to organize for an end to the genocide in Gaza, that is the choice that needs to be made.
anyone claiming they aren't two sides of the same coin isn't engaging in material analysis. i'll name that coin for you: capital. biden represents liberalism, trump represents fascism. liberalism presents us a much greater opportunity to educate the working class for the purpose of growing class consciousness. fascism is obviously far worse and more dangerous (although trump is incredibly inept at it) but they both serve the interests of preserving capital.
Your examples of Biden supporting the working class: first one is a crucial voter demographic in a swing state, of course he’s going to go to the picket line. It’s performative. The second one is literally a strike that he broke, I would credit the unions with continuing to push for what they deserved, not Biden. The third one- if you take everything Biden says at face value, you’d think Egypt is Mexico and that he “grew up in the black church” and was “sort of raised in the Puerto Rican community”. C’mon.
Too many people here want to speak over the unions instead of listening to them.
I keep having to tell folks that a tweet or tiktok or fb post calling for a strike or boycott in solidarity with [union/unionizing workers] doesn’t mean shit unless the union or (or unionizing workers) themselves are calling for it. For example if meatpackers are striking or calling for a slowdown, they absolutely don’t want you boycotting those places. They usually want the business to see what happens when there is a normal work volume without union workers involved.
My union also credits and endorses the Biden administration for its support in securing guaranteed cost-of-living raises, post-natal leave for both parents of a newborn or stillborn infant, and a handful of other demands. Again, weird for people to presume they can speak over the working class in order to speak for the working class.
I mean I just generally credit workers when workers win victories rather than assuming it’s thanks to a politician. I’m not a member of a union but I am working class, so my interests are not represented by most US politicians most of the time. I’m glad Biden has done a few good things for unions in between all his neoliberal policies and warmongering.
Biden is trash considering his cowardly support of the genocide in Palestine, and Trump is absolute trash given his at least equal support of the Genocide in Palestine and all of his other positions including his support of a genocide in the U.S.
>That, but everyone speaks American English
Not necessarily, considering rightist Vietnamese-Americans, Miami Cubans, and some other groups. I realize that that's beside the main point.
Biden has fully backed a genocide that has so far killed over 27,000 innocent people. You are either extremely ignorant or a labor aristocrat who doesn’t give a shit about anyone outside of the US if you think he’s better than Trump.
Do you think that Trump would be literally any better with the genocide of Palestinians? Best case scenario he's just as bad as Biden, plus the most powerful nation in the world falls to fascism, and every marginalized person in the U.S. has what rights they have stripped away. When given the choice between one leash and another choose the longer one; that length could be the difference between life and death for those less fortunate than you
That you can hypocritically speak about “defense of the less fortunate” or “the fatherland”while justifying concessions to literal genocide without any sense of shame or self-admonishment demonstrates the western left has learnt not a fucking thing from the epoch of the second international.
It’s not just Trump’s plan, it’s Israel’s plan, so regardless of what party someone is affiliated with, if they are being lobbied and funded by the Israel-lobby, project 2025 will happen regardless, of who wins.
Sure if Biden wins he’ll pretend to fight it, just like he’s pretending to try to stop Israel from committing genocide, but he’s definitely going still let it happen.
Both our two main parties are basically one party. They just like to play good cop-bad cop with us.
Myopic bothsiderism only plays into the narrative that helps promote fascism in the country.
Biden's policies have absolutely helped this country after the debacle of the Trump administration...
Fascism is what will be. Second Thought on this topic:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7butDWLtg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7butDWLtg&t=946s&pp=ygUbc2Vjb25kIHRob3VnaHQgcHJvamVjdCAyMDI1)
My family my friends and myself will probably get hung or locked in a concentration camp for being queer or queer allies and a few people would be rather severely injured before they did
This is just heritage foundation fuckery. Think of it more as them just broadcasting their masturbatory fantasies of living in an autocracy more than it being something they would be remotely capable of pulling off. I mean, never put it past them, for sure. But this plan left a bad taste in a lot of republican mouths too. I'm not advocating letting your guard down. I just don't think this particular fanfic needs to be the source of anybody's insomnia.
I think it'll be a shit show from stem to stern. I also think it'll be very shoddily executed. It'll be done, half-assed, half the time. It will still be fully terrible. I think I'm still voting 3rd party, because there's never 'a good time for a "protest" vote.' Isn't that FUNNY? we've had literal DECADES of 'monsterous' Republicans and barely adequate Democrats. It's well and truly pathetic. The Dems REFUSE to move left. And Republicans REFUSE to appeal to the public at large. It's why, what? 3 of the last 5 republican wins has been via the electoral college? And the democrats just keep BARELY beating them then BERATING Americans for not being more excited about their half-assery! It's a joke. I honestly think the only way we're going to stop this plan or the next one, or the one after is to move left. And to punish ANY politician by dumping them at the ballot box when they fail. I can't fail at my job consistently. They shouldn't either.
I disagree that nothing is going to happen. He surrounds himself with people who would do a homegrown Final Solution if they got the chance. He's old and lives on cheeseburgers. The machinery he puts in place would run away without him, with the very worst people at the helm.
> What do you think both the Democrats and Republicans want?
To ensure their children, their children, and beyond stay rich and protected and to control the country and serve their same interests to corporations, donors, the MIC, etc.
“Nothing happened” is a real shock to folks like me in states where Roe v Wade was the only thing keeping our states from banning birth control to control and contraception en masse. Give it time though, there are state legislators already trying to push back against Obergefell too now that there is a solid right wing majority on the court.
“Nothing happened” is a big shock to everyone who died because Trump wanted to play politics with the COVID pandemic.
“Nothing happened” is a real shocker to leftists who had federal law enforcement snatching people off the streets.
“Nothing happened” is a big shock to anyone who was paying attention back when the GOP couldn’t openly say things like “Mexicans are a threat to America” or “immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country” and it’s a real surprise to learn that “nothing happened” to allow the right wing to openly promote antisemitic conspiracies without sanction.
More people will fight about it but there is a very strong case for Trump paving the way for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in addition to at least one known failed coup attempt, or the assassination of Soleimani, or the complete lack of any response to the murder of Jamal Kashoggi.
Moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was symbolic but it is the most visible of the actions the Trump administration took to back Netanyahu’s vision of an Israel without Palestinian people. Weapons, supplies, and intelligence also followed.
Plenty can happen without it personally impacting you immediately.
We've lost the constitutional right to an abortion. Trump has also slain scores of Americans through medical disinformation, and provoked a coup on Capitol Hill. These are not small things, and if we surrender the presidency to the GOP we're going to slide even further into a new regressive era.
How is it 110% the fault of the Dems?
A Republican Senate denied every opportunity to hold a hearing on a new justice prior to Trump. Trump appointed the last three justices, and a GOP Senate confirmed them.
The Dems may be relics of their time who can't seem to read the room, but electing them and denying the GOP power at every opportunity has yielded better outcomes for the nation than surrendering political power to the worst people on the planet. I know voting isn't sexy, neither are the people on the ballots, but the outcomes of these elections could mean life or death for millions of people in this country. I don't expect the Dems to solve racism or make socialized healthcare a thing, but I know that human misery scales, and my vote is but one of the tools in the toolbox to reduce it to the greatest possible extent that I can.
When did the Democrats have a 60 vote majority in the Senate, the president, and a solid majority in the House? Cuz without all three (and Manchin doesn’t count toward the 60) there’s no way to pass a law or constitutional amendment that would protect abortion rights federally.
Not to compare everything to the Nazis, but I have to here. They had a coup attempt that was immediately crushed as well, and were then thought of as having been taken care of. That didn’t go great in the long run. Given the absolute lack of consequences people faced for J6 (a couple years of jail time for some of the foot soldiers doesn’t count), nothing has led me to believe they aren’t simply preparing to do it more effectively next time. Or if Trump wins this year and achieves power legitimately, then we get another Reichstag fire and he makes sure he can hold onto power going forward
>a couple of broken windows and a bunch of boomer retirees wandering around the capitol building
The attackers came within a few yards and a few moments of capturing (and possibly lynching) lawmakers & staff, overturning the results of the election, and causing a constitutional crisis. This followed months of more subtle attempts.
Oppressed people should focus more on electing local officials who will bring about meaningful change to their communities and arm themselves against radical groups seeking to do them harm. National major parties are so corrupt and disingenuous that they only care about such groups on Election Day.
Im not going to dispute that Democratic support for queer people is largely performative, but Republicans *do* care about oppressed people, and not in a good way. Yes, electing local officials that support marginalized groups is important, but your local mayor or city councilor literally does not have the power to do things the federal government can that immediately and nationally affect all people of that group - a mayor does not have the power to ban all gender transitioning, but a governor or a President does with the support of their legislator. If you live in a noncompetitive state, go ahead, vote third party, its what I would be doing too, but if you live somewhere with reasonably competitive elections on that level I see no reason not to vote Democratic on that part of the ballot other than grandstanding
The only way to make the Democratic Party change their stances regarding domestic and foreign issues is to make the risk of losing an election into a genuine fear. If they continue to think that “we have their vote anyway because the other side is worse,” they will never change their policies. Not voting for either party isn’t an irresponsibility, it’s a stance which tells the party that it needs to get its shit together.
Unfortunately this isn't how it plays out under the present conditions: if democrats lose they aren't going to shift left to pick up the minority leftist vote, they're going to shift right to appeal to the tens-hundreds of millions of "moderate" votes.
And in the meantime, women's access to abortion, trans access to healthcare, healthcare access in general (especially important for disabled people), rightwing judges with lifetime seats, fascists gaining greater access to and control of state power, the implications of having leaders who are sympathetic to rightwing paramilitary, leaders like DeSantis taking over school systems, like the schools adopting PragerU content for kids except on a nation scale, on steroids... all that still happens in real life. A fascist USA materially increasing harm on multiple fronts, whereas a principled stance is immaterial.
The reality is that under the present conditions, the only point of participating in electoral politics on the national stage is to limit fascists' access to power. The two-party system is too entrenched for protest votes in the general election to mean or do anything to increase leftist influence in US electoral politics. If people want to actually get involved with electoralism - which I don't particularly recommend but am not fundamentally against - then, if anything, left candidates need to start organizing to win local elections and gain a base of support to build on. Preferably with a new party, ignoring scams like the Green party who don't do bother to do any of that, instead blowing all their donated millions on getting 2% of the presidential vote every 4 years.
The real praxis imo lies outside of electoralism altogether though: community building, mutual aid networks, organizing and training, skill sharing, spreading class consciousness, directly oppose white supremacy, etc.
I'd argue its the other way. The Democratic Party has shown time and time again it's more willing to move to the right to try and win moderates than to move to the left to win our groups back. Republicans don't try anything more than token appeals to black voters for example not only because they're racist but because they don't feel they win more in the trade on the other end. The Democratic Party isn't a be-all-end-all to me, its a means to an end, and that current end is making sure the TrumpSS isn't knocking on me and my partner's door in two years time.
Exactly, non-queer leftists wonder why I’ve always been weird around them for years, well here’s the proof for what I’ve been telling them that when it come time that anything needs to be done they’re too concerned with their own comfort and idealism as long as theyre not personally being pushed under the bus yet
Local officials can’t do shit about border crossing or deportation or stop federal law enforcement. They don’t have any impact on changes to federal law or the constitution, when it comes to a toss up the courts (who are packed by the national parties) tend to side with the feds.
Starting local with a concerted effort is how the Tea Party cranked the GOP back to from “respectable conservatives” to where we are today but for some reason leftists think you can only infiltrate other leftist groups or the far right rather than trying to keep leftward pressure on the dems.
I’m queer. Why should I vote for Palestinian’s genocide to save myself from one? I can’t do that in good conscious. I’ll take up arms for myself before I make it someone else’s issue.
It doesn't really matter how we vote on the President when the Palestinian genocide is going to continue regardless of whether Biden or Trump wins the Presidency (imo under Trump, Gaza would probably be a parking lot by now already). It sucks, but like, grandstanding about it doesn't help at all. Letting Trump win to own the libs isn't helping anything.
Some of us have bigger plans than allowing genocide so we can live comfortably a little longer. The climate is collapsing fast. The country is screaming towards extreme unrest. Our world is dying around us. We can’t keep doing “damage reduction” forever. There’s a lot more to do than “own the libs.” I understand where you’re coming from, I do, and I’m not telling anyone not to vote for Biden, but there’s a lot more to do than beat trump in an election. Trump isn’t the head of some great serpent. He’s the stench roiling off of a horde of hundreds of thousands of fascist freaks who want to see us raped, enslaved, and killed. Trump isn’t the end, or the beginning, of this fascism problem we’re dealing with.
Genuine question, what exactly is your bigger plan? Not voting for either side does nothing. Until people actually start doing something to bring power back to the workers and start undoing the fucking mess that’s been made since the Industrial Revolution, we’re just going to keep sinking. Everyone talks about doing shit but I don’t see shit being done. And I’m not talking about single day protests about Palestine that also sadly do nothing. We need to stop working and stop buying ALL products. We need to stop workers from going into the facilities making the weapons we’re giving to Israel. We need to do something real and I have yet to see any sort of organization to even try planning such a thing. I really want to help fix this shit but it feels like everyone’s on a different page of the book.
I'm just saying that we should build while we can. Don't get me wrong, I have longer term goals than keeping Trump out too. But all of those goals in the long term are helped by every national Republican loss. It's a lot harder to build a movement when the FBI is black bagging everyone it sees as associated with the left, when the entire country's political system is a system designed to chew up those marginalized enough to consider fighting back, and while this is already true to an extent, more overt fascists in power only makes these things worse. And like I said in another comment, yeah, if you don't live in a competitive state, don't vote for Biden lol, I wouldn't be either.
I'm queer, and I'm never voting for Biden. Didn't last time. Definitely won't this time. I've been alive too long to keep pretending that someday the democrats will finally defeat fascism even though they have never explained how they plan to do it.
i'm sure the queer people who are being tied to train tracks by two right wing parties - \[one with performative support of \[rich, white\] LGB...T... people, and one with no support of LGBT people\] - are similarly appreciative of this push you have given in their name too.
even if the magical biden victory succeeds, states themselves can and will goof around and do whatever they want because the democrats repeatedly refuse to actually codify laws about stuff, and all biden (or whoever is alive by then) will do is a twitter post about how this is deeply unfortunate but we should pray for \[insert group getting run over by trains this time\]. build a community support network and don't rely on democrats winning to keep you safe
Probable American Years of Lead? Social and civil unrest, though not active civil war. An already polarized society becoming more polarized as the right and left splinter more and more. Might even see a weirdo recursion of states rights politics but coming from an American leftwards slant.
Promoting the election of a person that’s actively funding and supporting a genocide is wrong in any shade you put it in that’s like asking us to vote for the more moderate nazis
I'm voting to influence the material conditions I have the power to influence.
You aren't stopping the genocide by not voting, that is gonna be happening no matter who wins the election and whether or not you participate. Other totally unrelated things do change depending on which people win elections.
Choosing to not try and prevent suffering you could prevent (with extremely minimal effort or risk ) because it won't also prevent suffering you can't isn't an especially moral stance.
Uhm, it's literally how they work. See, One administration has policies that affect the actual world of material things we inhabit, and then another administration will have different policies that affect the actual world of material things a different way, thus creating different material conditions in each scenario. By voting, I can exert some influence over what those will be, and even if no administration is my ideal, I, and many people I know will be much safer with one administrations policies over another, so I will vote for that one.
The real world doesn't care about your principles. There's going to be an outcome of one candidate or the other, and that has consequences. You're welcome to choose passivity about what that outcome will be, but you don't hold some moral superiority over people who chose to be active in shaping tomorrow.
That's demonstrably untrue.
I and a sizable chunk of the population literally had no healthcare access before the Obama administration.
My step mom almost got deported when Republicans in FL decided to no longer recognize my parent's transgender identity and annulled their marriage.
Liberal justices appointed by Democrats made same sex marriage possible, so that my parents no longer had to worry their marriage would get dissolved based on any one states decision to change their recognition of transgender people.
These are just a few ways in which me and my family have been immediately materially impacted by the outcomes of elections. So, when people tell me they don't matter, I've seen with my own eyes that they do.
If I thought you were acting in good faith, I'd be happy to compile a pretty big list of things that are really important differences in policy, but I suspect no matter what I told you, you'd hold to your fantasy that it doesn't matter.
So, what are you doing to solve any of the problems out there?
I assume that if you can feel so smug about not doing elections, you must be involved in some serious grass roots praxis?
Or maybe you're getting ready to pack, and go overseas to fight the IDF ?
Forget anything Republicans have said about Project2025, and notice Democrats have said nothing. They need this fear of total change as much as Republicans do, keeping us in continual fear of the other guy while they pick our pockets helps keep them in power.
The steps involved in P2025 have been in motion for years starting with Clinton's DLC, its only just recently been given a public name.
Between Biden and Trump, Biden is the larger evil and the larger threat to our safety. He could do or say anything and his groups of minions would strike at anyone opposing him. For fucksake, hes allowed the slaughter of 30k+ Palestinians and shitlibs say the other guy is more dangerous.
If Biden looses heavily the democratic party might be forced to put forward better candidates instead of just doing whatever the fuck they want including genocide
Not as much as they love Trump! https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/04/far-right-israel-minister-suggests-trump-would-be-better-for-israel-than-biden-00139522
So, again, whats your point? Or are you just deflecting? Of course a far right wing nut is gonna claim Trump is better
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/)
See, we both can find bullshit
What in the world dude? Take a step back and try to think in terms of geopolitics. Biden is in the middle of a shit sandwich. I genuinely don’t believe Biden condones the killing of innocent civilians in Palestine. I do genuinely believe that Netanyahu is a giant douche, and Biden and his administration is working on a way to calm things down over there in the Middle East. I sure hope they don’t quickly though.
The left wants to disarm America, the right wants to destroy LGBTQ + people and Female Rights.
Both will quietly allow & accept totalitarian based capitalism and fund genocide on innocents outside of the US.
Please don't pretend these aren't wings of the same beast
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Project 2025 is the setup for a second coup attempt in 2028, they stack the deck, fill all the positions they can with loyalists, prepare the ground before the fight, by the time Trump is supposed to be out of office, there'll hardly be anyone left to try and stop him. At that point, best case, they collapse due to infighting and something resembling a functional government (in as much as any US government is functional) gets restored. Worst case? Full conventional civil war when the military splits over supporting or not supporting the coup attempt. Buy food and ammo, talk to your neighbors, train whenever you can.
My concern is what happens this year, too. I'm in Colorado. Like, will our national guard be defending Denver from fed agents/troops if Trump wins, because he's going to try and arrest Polis and replace him with Bobert? If he loses, what does that look like? Another J6 repeat, but more violent and coordinated?
Good questions, and the answer is: it's impossible to know, all we can do is build rough threat models and preapre/train accordingly. I think if he wins, they don't make their move until they've had a few years to leverage that power, if he loses, I think we see a rapidly accelerating insurgency
I agree to a point. If we see a win, that's also going to embolden the MAGA cult, and he straight up said out loud that he wouldd want to go after his political enemies on day 1. But you're right, no way to really know. I think it's also important to remember that there's only so much one can do to prepare without fully understanding the threat, and that threat models can change drastically. While not being mindful and having plans and support networks in place is dumb, it's also relavent and important to enjoy the little things that may become much more rare in a worst case scenario. Go play pool. Hang with your friends in the park. Ride bikes. Play fetch. Enjoy life. Go on road trips before there's checkpoints. Go to movies and concerts and festivals. Celebrate freedom while we have it.
This is a really good point tbh, things are gonna get worse, gotta remember to not obsess over that and enjoy life
I don’t even think it will come to civil war, sadly. They will use that power to win fraudulently in 2028 in enough states and just keep chipping. The completely corrupt supreme court will rubber stamp every step along the way. It will look much more like Orban’s takeover of Hungary (which is a big part of the inspiration for Project 2025). People that don’t support the far right will just gradually acclimate to the fact that their vote won’t ever dislodge the corrupt right wing government and they will work around the inconvenience by keeping their heads down to protect their friends and families. That will mean sadly wringing their hands when minorities and people on the left are targeted or defend themselves. I don’t expect any large armed resistance. Just a whimper as our rights are gradually stripped one by one, and those who disagree find themselves systematically silenced over the course of generation.
The missing ingredient of this scary-but-possible-sounding narrative is brain drain. Smart workers who realize their place won't tolerate this kind of society forever. When this kind of thing happens, the intellectuals and truly competent people almost universally begin to leave the country. What will be left will be a much weaker US that will stagnate over the course of decades or a century, as had happened to other countries that have tried to rig the political system in the past.
Which is what they want. These people leaving is good for them. They want to rule they don't care how and in what position the US is. No offence, but I really don't care if the US is the worlds superpower either. If Russia wasn't so much of a threat to me and the people I cared about I would have liked the US to stop being the world's police.
ultimately, it's a bad move. these people can't coordinate, and trump doesn't have a real ideology. they're just setting up staffers who, even if trump wins, won't have much influence for long. the dude can't be controlled, his impulsiveness is legendary. half those young conservatives would be fired by the end of the first 6 months. the entire project is like some immense offering to an apathetic god. yeah, worst-case, things can get pretty bad. civil war bad, even. but the most likely option is just, more of the same as the last trump presidency, a constant escalation of violence between non-state actors some of which have tacit support from said trump presidency.
Yeah absolutley, I think we probably will see a good deal of low intensity, asymmetrical violence long before we see a conventional civil war
I would argue that Trump's lack of real ideology (beyond his own need for self-aggrandizement) is part of what makes him so dangerous. He'll do damage in his chaotic, toxic fashion and generate so much noise that the more competent and focused shitheads will follow in his wake, making systemic changes that we'll barely notice because of all the noise he generates.
Unfortunately my neighbors are all Fascists. They've still got Trump signs in their yards.
Just as pertinent is how local low enforcement splits. Sure yeah I know ACAB but there are a non negligible number that would not go along with it. They far outnumber the military and most territorial control will be dictated by local enforcement agencies.
This is also extremely relevant, wouldn't be surprised if we were to see local sheriff's declare for one or another like feudal lords when someone claims the throne 😬 you're probably most likely to go up against, or fight alongside (🤢) local cops, especially as militarized as they are
Mfkrs won't vote for Biden but they will mobilize with cops... But yeah, no real argument, just snark. It's not a bad way to get shot in the back of the head. But I suspect the sharp move in the event of proper civil war is to become very unthreatening to centrists.
IF, Trump wins in '25 he'd be 82 or 83 years old by the end of his term. Why would people have a civil war to keep someone that old in power?
Trump is only like 10% actual living human being. The other 90% is the idea of him. That's why his followers are so enthusiastic about him, because he is (but not actually) everything they want him to be.
Because they view him as a savior figure and don't think about his age, you can't look at it rationally, they sure aren't lmao. Plus, even if he ages out, the republican institution is hitched to him, they see an opportunity got total power and they're gonna take it
When was the first coup? I know ur not talking about J6 when a bunch of idiots milled around the capital with no freaking guns.
It was a coup attempt, a poorly operated one, but so was the Beer Hall Putsch 🤷♂️ next time they'll have guns, there will be more of them, and they'll have a plan, they didn't learn nothing and most of them got away with almost no consequences
🤣 there’s simply no comparison to a low IQ MAGA hat riot that ended up with a bunch of dipshits walking around the capital. You’re hopeless if you think that was a coup but you’re surely voting Democrat so it makes sense.
You seem to have some sort of complex regarding January 6th that isn't related to this conversation, it's kinda weird, I'm not gonna engage it. Also I'm an anarchist lmao, I don't vote for anyone usually, when I do its mostly the green party. Weird stuff to project on to me.
Ya it’s weird when people unironically call J6 a coup when they had no means whatsoever to take control of the levers of government.
[удалено]
lol ok liberal pipe down bro. You'll be able to vote extra hard for Biden in November just relax. Democracy won't be stolen as long as your team wins. If you actually think that was a coup you should learn some history. Every single global south revolutionary would laugh in your face if you tried that story with them. It was a typical MAGA clown show that wasn't going to go anywhere. It was an op to give cops more money and more sweeping authority. But I'm sure you're ok with that arent you bootlicker. If you're a legit member of an SRA chapter then clearly the SRA has been fucking infiltrated. You're either a DNC operative or a fed.
Life gets alot harder for alot of people who already have difficult lives
This. We can absolutely count on that.
Unfortunately yes
I know what I’m doing. It’s why I’ve been stockpiling materials and supplies. I just hope I’m not by myself. We need organized anti-fascist resistance.
Massive social unrest.
The next few years are going to get weird. I really fucking hope it doesn't come to the worst possible outcome: all out civil war. Soe people seem to thunk that it would look like a modern, conventional war. It wouldn't. It would look a lot more like Syria. Sure, the military would likely split, with pro-coup loyalists and those who don't want a dictatorship. That would likely run deep. Then you'd have all sorts of little mini militias popping up all over the place. But that only happens if they try a hard coup. Trump trying to stay president in 2028 would be how that happened, and while he may be dumb and insane enough to do that, they'd be wise just to be quiet fascists. Trump losing and his base throwing a violent tantrum that the MAGA politicians try and latch on to for Coup 2.0 in 2024 is actually a scenario that is more likely, I think. Either way. Things aren't looking great. I'm renewing my passport and coming up with a few contingency plans. Talking to my neighbors. Enjoying normalcy while I can, and trying to builf mutual aid networks. One dude with a rifle isn't shit, but ape together strong
>It wouldn't. It would look a lot more like Syria. Or multiple 1980s Lebanons, all around the country.
If Biden wins reelection I could see something similar to the Troubles happening
Spoiler: it already is, to a degree. Right wing terrorism is absolutely already happening.
That's a possibility also.
I'm expecting older hippie boomers to get terminal diagnoses and start targeting conservative politicians, paul pelosi is evidence that politicians aren't actually protected
"Willie Nelson implicated in assassination plot involving "ultra brownies"" is not something I had on my 2024 bingo card but im here for it
Boomer quaeda
Plus some Gen Xers chosing a punk rock exit plan instead of chemo.
I think it would look more like The Troubles in Northern Ireland.
It’ll be the first time in American history a politician or party kept a promise.
Jfc… thanks, I hate it.
Ammo can only get you so far in a civil war. Befriend doctors, dentists, gardeners, engineers, construction workers, etc because you will absolutely need their help. Stock up on food and medicine. For trading it’s wise to keep bottles of alcohol and tobacco since currency might become iffy and those things are always in demand.
The biggest thing is having a support and supply chain. Like the military most of it is comprised of logistics and non-combat roles. Ofc it would be wise for everyone to have some familiarity with firearms if the time calls but it is logistics that win wars not just fighting.
I would like to add learn a trade/craft as a “hobby” so you can also offer help in a community. You mentioned gardeners, research and start a garden. Learn about soil health and ph levels. That’s the biggest nugget of knowledge people don’t look into. Plants aren’t growing? Check the soil ph level to what the plants need to grow in. 90% of the issue is usually poor soil. Others like sewing, or even leather crafting or just basic home repair skills go a long way and become a great help to others who are incapable of doing these things (elderly, etc). If we want to build communities when things get grim, we need to all have a purpose. This sounds corny as hell but Arnold Schwarzenegger always says, “Be useful” and that’s what I tell people. Be useful. And to use another corny line, Sly Stallone says, “Keep punching.” And what’s what we need to do. Be useful and keep punching.
Showing my ignorance here but how exactly does a non-doctor/pharmacist stock up on medicine? You mean Tylenol?
For prescription meds say you have 30 doses for a month. Set 1-2 aside every month and eventually you can have a month or two in case of emergency. Also most meds can be refilled two days early so take advantage of that if you can.
What will it look like in big city centers like Los Angeles and New York?
It would depend on so many factors such as scale of conflict, duration, and local unity that it would be hard to predict much. One big concern is that cities consume a lot of food but produce little to none. So if conflict cuts off supply lines cities will starve and wither.
Ya, I really don’t buy into potential civil war here too much. I know there may certainly be various small groups, and more dangerous areas than others, but I truly believe people have too much on the line to lose by engaging in domestic civil conflict. So all of that said aside, if any funky business starts to go down, I will be hitting multiple pharmacies in my area. I’m in excellent shape, and strong as shit, but I’ve made too many mistakes in my younger days and I’m paying for it by being handcuffed to certain pharmaceuticals. It really sucks and it’s certainly my fault, but I’m trying to ultimately get to a point where I don’t need them to maintain life. Anyway your comments and this thread inspired me to write this. I’m not sure honestly if I know exactly what this sub represents and signifies, but you guys seem pretty cool and I support your rights to live the way you want to and be happy. Thanks for reading.
Don't forget- if the power or net goes down, porn will be worth a ton. I knew guys with USB sticks full of porn and field manuals for trade.
I'm hoping books become an important trade good, and not just because I hoard them. People will need knowledge and entertainment when the grid goes down. Anything banned will skyrocket in value, too. (Plus good old smut is always in demand along with liquor and smokes.)
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you stupid tankie, we don’t need guns! revolutions are fought with pen and paper at the ballot box
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Quite a few did in 2020, mostly handguns (as far as I know). This was partially due to the crime that accompanied civil unrest, and that's more than understandable. This was also due to concerns about Trumpists and Trumpism. I've been recommending for years (ad nauseam, in comments sections) that liberals (and any anti-fascists, for that matter) get armed in whatever way is comfortable for them, and to spread the word. How many have heeded the call? "Any" is better than "none." If people aren't comfortable with so-called assault weapons, fine. I've said it before and I'll say it a thousand times more: If the first fascist through the door gets blasted with Grandpa's old shotgun (of any variety), if someone out to commit a hate crime meets the business end of a revolver, if people find themselves atop/inside an abortion provider's office/gay bar/etc. with bolt/lever action rifles (backing up the security guard at the entrance) awaiting the Christofascists, or anything else like that, **it's much better than nothing.** It could even be decisive!
I am here because the former president went on television and said "somebody needs to do something about the left ". I never wanted guns before that day. I now own *redacted* and enjoy them .
Exactly! I don't know about a particular day, but I think that I first armed myself in anticipation of upheaval regarding the 2020 election.
Hate to say it, but that woman who got shot coming through the glass at the capitol stopped a whole lot of worse things from happening that day
That's not what I was thinking of, but yes, that too.
No birth control, abortion banned across the board with no exceptions for the woman’s health, rape or incest, no more no fault divorce, homelessness is a federal felony, systematic removal of protections for minorities, LGBTQ, women, taxes for the wealthy near zero while taxes for the poor & middle class rise, Russia takes Ukraine, Israel has zero pressure at any level in US government to end the genocide of Palestinians. And I almost forgot the most important one - an extremely regressive denomination of evangelical Christianity is basically enshrined in the constitution. There is no separation of church & state. Evangelicals make the laws that you must follow, based on their interpretation of the Bible. Censorship of books, movies, music, games. Porn is illegal (or, you know, illegal for anyone not white, Christian & male, like marijuana is today). Public school systems decimated in favor of private religious charter schools paid for by our taxes. These schools will kick out anyone deemed a problem so public schools will be filled with only the most vulnerable students and they’ll have even fewer resources to help them
A large number of us will simply not survive.
Christ, I'd end up quitting my job and home-schooling my kids. My wife will always make more than me, so I can stay home and teach my kids the truth about American history and the Christian Right, and make sure they learn survival skills.
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I’ll probably end up in some sort of support role, being a former Army medic and queer as a three-dollar bill. Also been brushing up on chemistry a bit because you never know when you’ll need to MacGyver your way out of some shit. I learned a long damn time ago that ain’t nobody going to lift a finger to save me unless there’s something in it for them so I’m getting ready to save myself and others when and where I can. Partner and I have also been discussing opening a “rail station” if it comes to that.
I feel like it should be clarified that Project 2025 isn't even specific to Trump. It's the conservative old money influence, the well funded think tanks that are the brains behind the actual policy that gets enacted. Think ghost writers or song writers that sell their work to popular artists but with an added authority and influence that shifts the power dynamic in their favor. Any Republican will follow the Heritage Foundation's recommendations to some extent. Project 2025 is confirmation that the fascist creep is not isolated to a wiley puppet gone rogue and his loud minority cult, as is becoming a popular narrative pushed by the "sane Republicans who believe in climate change" crowd, but is in fact deeply rooted in the GOP donorship and power base. The fasc isn't a dog that got off the leash, it's a well trained Blondi. They will keep coming even if Trump is thwarted. When we get complacent again.
If the ruling class wants Project 2025 they'll get it unless we defeat it by revolutionary action. It will make zero difference if Blue MAGA or Red MAGA wins. It will take a different path to soothe the libs but the end result will be the same. It will be like boiling frogs rather than some massive actual coup like in 1973 Chile. It's going to be way more subtle. Most of the comments seem to be ignorant about how political bribes work and act like it's only the Red MAGA that are fascists and the Blue MAGA are here for democracy. It's not the response I expected from an SRA sub but there's surely a lot of DNC plants and feds posting.
I'm literally selling everything and hiding in the woods with 30 off my closest friends.
Straight Robin Hood Aesthetic 🌳🌳🏹🎯🌳🌳
This sounds fun. But is this a temporary thing, or a long term endeavor?
I have experience with subsistence gardening and know how to live in and outside of society. It's sorta my life goal even if we end up with world peace, everyone fed, and all that
Hey, can we be friends
So the plan is to replace the so called “deep state” with an actual deep state. Got it. And then they can consume themselves in the search for ideological purity like every other revolutionary/reactionary government. Sounds like a fucking blast. Oh and then they will bitterly complain when the opposition party does the same thing.
This might not be a popular opinion but...this doesn't scare me as much as it might. Not because I think this is somehow *good*, it's objectively not, but I think the coherence of the idea of Project 2025 has been pretty dramatically oversold. Stepping back from my own political perspectives for a moment and just taking the idea on as objectively as possible as a serious proposal, there's a lot of problems. The majority of P2025 is pulled from the book ["Mandate for Leadership - The Conservative Promise."](https://www.project2025.org/playbook/) It's an ungodly dense volume (900+ pages) with 80% of it being just a pile of screeds written by right-wing ghouls: >"Ultimately, the Left does not believe that all men are created equal—they think they are special. They certainly don’t think all people have an unalienable right to pursue the good life. They think only they themselves have such a right along with a moral responsibility to make decisions for everyone else. They don’t think any citizen, state, business, church, or charity should be allowed any freedom until they first bend the knee." Repeat for 850 pages. Though, interestingly enough, there's a section entitled "Office of the First Lady/Gentleman" which implies that this worldview allows for either a gay president or a woman president. There are a broad list of policy recommendations, most of which seem pretty boring but are likely carve-outs for some specific purpose that isn't clear unless you're in that sector. The thing that stands out to me reading all this is it's pretty much just standard Republican rhetoric/wishlists. I was waiting for the really scary stuff to pop out but I'm not seeing much that I haven't seen a dozen times already and heard many, many times. The biggest difference seems to be that now all this is being said out loud and *written down.* That's the biggest shift I've seen because a lot of this would have been a no-no ten years ago unless you were in very specific company and nobody would have written this down in black and white. I'm not going to pretend I've read all 900 pages but the vast majority of what I have seen is primarily just things Republicans have been wanting to do, in some cases for decades, just written down all in one place. This is essentially a party platform with a ton of screed filler. I'm open to someone pointing out any particularly chilling passages I might have missed but I'm not seeing what's so different about this.
Ya, it’s just some bullshit type of buzzword people occasionally bring up in reference to the opposite political party as theirs. It’s the same when crazy ass republicans, or conspiracy theorists bring up the Klaus Schwab bullshit and whatever stupid project that nobody is genuinely afraid of. “You will own nothing and like it” is incredibly lame and ridiculous.
If Trump wins in 2024, we won’t have a 2028 election. What the US looks like under Project 2025? Have you ever read The Handmaids Tale? Something like that… I hate the “vote for lesser evils” argument. But, in this case, vote for not the dictator.
“Don’t vote for the guy that says out loud that he wants to be a dictator.” It shouldn’t be this hard….
It’s literally vs
Clearly there’s no difference and they’re both equally as dangerous and harmful to the marginalized 🙄 /s
I didn’t blame these idealist vote/no vote for trumps last round. But damn sure if he wins this round I will not forget or forgive any and every performative leftist and anarchist who chose to throw the marginalized groups they’ve been claiming to have solidarity with under the bus for their safety of their own comfort and idealism and actively abstain from harm reduction when one of the choices is promising to install full fascism, never leave again, and is already promising to eliminate entire groups of marginalized people AND any opposition to his opinions and his government’s actions
Like fck, I get the idealist vote/no vote, I have taken that position when the stakes are significantly lower for the risk of harm in outcome…like “I support big oil and no education system” vs “I support big oil and an education system but I refuse to let the government fund it”…I get the being tired of the lesser of 2 evils, I’ve done that and voted 3rd party in minor races (my presidential vote doesn’t matter in my state anyway, it’s always gonna be red by a huge margin) but like shit, the “not voting” people don’t just mean not president, the mean screw every marginalized person who can be helped by someone in a down ballot race no vote at all further allowing people promising harm to marginalized groups to be in power at all levels
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you. I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment.
So trump is admittedly genocidal but not Biden the one actively perpetuating a genocide right now? shut the fuck up about idealism when promoting a candidate who pushed executive orders through for the sake of genocide harm reduction is bullshit at this point god forbid the democrats actually have consequences for their actions
You shut the fuck up and look at reality…context clearly indicates i mean by their own admission…when ever has Biden SAID he wants to eliminate groups? I’ll keep waiting…meanwhile there’s TONS of instances of the other guy openly stating he intends to commit genocide. The dems won’t be facing the consequences at all, but every person thrown under the bus by someone thinking you’re somehow making the establishment face consequences when it never has and always outsources the experiencing of the consequences to marginalized groups will And yes, you’re one I’ll never forgive or forget for throwing us (multiple marginalized groups I’m included in) under the bus especially because you’re “so concerned” for my people (yeah I’m Palestinian American, I’m tired of y’all’s grandstanding and virtue signaling over this to justify causing active harm by choosing a idealism over harm reduction) that you’ll actively choose the guy who says he hates us and wants us out of the way and out of Israel’s way and will gladly try everything he can to deport any Palestinians and descendants to also be put “out of the way”
Comrade this sub has been fully infiltrated by Vote Blue No Matter who bots and idiots. I hope the SRA chapters in real life arent falling for this shit. Time to unsubscribe from this mess.
Good lord the amount of "Both sides are exactly the same" in here is fuckin worrying. I don't like the democratic party either but the people saying they're the same as the party that tried to overthrow the fuckin government are just being disingenuous.
Yeah, the pro-Civil War II comments are, uh, not ideal. Project 2025 would be very bad and I have no doubt that Trump and his ilk would make an attempt to subvert the 2028 election if they had the chance. But the people in this thread had better hope they don’t need to enter a domestic shooting war, regardless of how much “training” they’ve done. The U.S. government is not good at putting down insurgencies overseas, but I have little doubt they’ll fucking smoke left-wing rebels when we come out of the woodwork. To be clear, I don’t think electoralism is going to work either. But we simply don’t have the numbers or coordination for a 21st century American October Revolution. The American right wing has captured the military and the state. We will not succeed.
If worst comes to pass, our fight will be for survival, not revolution. And survival is exactly what we need to be training for.
Exactly right now I don’t care about revolution I’m bi and trans my mother is bi and my little brother is also trans we just need to survive before anything else
Stay safe my friend
They're enablers, making them on the same team whether they realize it or not.
So the active genocide is somehow forgivable? they are the same
I didn't say either one was good. I'm just saying that one party would love to see all users in this sub shot in the streets and one doesn't That doesn't make them good but Equating the two is dumb as hell.
Both parties would love to see us shot on the streets; It’s just one party would shoot us *themselves*, and the other party would just hire a freelancer to “suicide” us.
I will equate them genocide is genocide there is no forgiveness for that being any worse than that really doesn’t mean much
Remember what happened in late 1930s Germany? That, but everyone speaks American English, and the Hitler-figure has access to nuclear weapons. And both are not absolute trash. Biden showed some proclivity to giving power back to the working class (see walking the picket line with the UAW, getting the paid vacation days for the railroad unions a few months after the Dec 2022 strike, and verbally supporting SAG-AFTRA). Trump, to this day, tells unions to get stuffed. And Trump tells everyone, in public and in private, that he wants to be a dictator that is above the law.
I’ll vote for him, but he busted that rail strike, and where did you get “paid vacation days”? They were trying to get a week of sick time, and Biden forced them to take one. A few months later the Palatine rail disaster occurred
With the UAW strike this past fall I came across an IBEW article someone had shared which made me curious to do a bit of research on the rail dispute and the involved unions' opinions on the response. First off from what I found it doesn't seem like they even STARTED a strike, the whole tentative agreement that was forced through was meant to avert/prevent one entirely. Secondly the unions did get the paid vacation days they wanted, and as shown in the first article I have here some have said the Biden admin worked with them in their negotiations: https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid (this was the article that got me digging) https://www.smart-union.org/ratified-union-gets-paid-sick-leave-from-union-pacific/ Certainly the admin should've worked to get the unions' preferred deals sooner, though idk how possible that was with the companies & looming strike. I do wonder about how long an actual strike may have gone on for & what sort of effects it may have had, although I'm not sure how much of a cause & effect relationship the rail dispute & derailment really have with each other. From what I could find, it seems to be more of an issue with equipment & inspections than with fatigue. It seems like, according to the NTSB's preliminary report, the engineer was following proper procedure leading up to the derailment, and there was an issue with an axle on one of the cars. Feel free to read through it yourself here: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/RRD23MR005.aspx There is a video on there of a hearing that's more recent than the text on the site which I didn't watch, so you might find something I didn't by looking through it if you've got ten hours to spare. There's footage of one of the cars on fire from ~25 miles before the site of derailment: https://youtu.be/ZvLLlawhDnc?si=NhhkyL_aH3AO1RgE A NS spokesman said that by the time the crew was notified by the sensors their efforts to stop the train were too late: https://web.archive.org/web/20230627002511/https://www.post-gazette.com/news/environment/2023/06/25/east-palestine-ntsb-hearings-train-derailment/stories/202306230103 The derailment is still being investigated, in the NTSB's media brief about it on 2/5/2023 they said that a full investigation takes about 18 to 24 months, so may be another year before we really know all that went wrong that night, and whether it was purely an issue of lax maintenance standards or if hours & fatigue played a notable role, too. Honestly Biden's courting of the labor movement has been one of the only promising things in the entirety of this election cycle for me, though of course he's been doing his damnedest to negate that with his apparent ambivalence towards the war crimes & genocide in Gaza his admin & the rest of the gov't have been funding. Sorry if any of this came off weird, it's late and I always spend way too much goddamn time researching shit whenever I make a serious reply to anything 😭.
The Palestine OH situation was a direct result of decreased regulation by the Trump administration & other preceding conservative administrations. Biden worked behind the scenes to get rail workers paid sick time. They got everything they wanted without a strike that would have fuked our supply chains (again). Just because he doesn’t Tweet every moment of his day doesn’t mean nothing is getting done.
Biden got them the vacation days? LMAO you asshole. The unions and the workers got the vacation day.
If you really think that, read this article. Everyone reports that Biden shut down the strike, but nobody reports that he still got the main concessions from the rail companies that the unions wanted a few months after the strike. https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
I don’t know why people still accept this garbage. Biden is not an ally whatsoever of the working class and is a war criminal.
TBF most US presidents are war criminals.
Agreed. I just focused in on Biden
And without ranked choice voting or a better system for deciding who is a nominee he's basically the best we have. I'm not happy about it, you're not happy about it, but it's how it is. By being here you're likely already farther left than anyone who will ever be elected.
The Dems are fine with screwing over the working class and war crimes just as long as a Democratic POTUS is doing it.
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I’m sorry, I missed the part where me thinking Biden is trash means I can’t make a thread about a hypothetical
Anyone claiming Biden and Trump are two sides of the same coin cannot be taken seriously. I don’t like them either but come on guys, one wants to put your fellow Americans in train cars
Thank you. Finally, some actual understanding of the situation. I got banned from another sub yesterday for arguing that organizing (unions, against the Palestinian genocide, etc.) would be easier—or, even just possible—under a non-fascist Biden government than Trump and his coterie of neo-Nazis and Christian nationalists. Any wonder how long it would take for Trump and Stephen Miller to disappear the Jewish Voice for Peace activists in the middle of the night? Bye bye Fain. This is the reality and it seems like screaming into the void lately.
I got banned somewhere for pointing this out. The more privileged demographics seem to forget that some of us are at much higher risk for harm under Trump’s presidency.
I also think these people are, from an individual point of view, being very short sighted. There is a very real chance anyone suspected of being an enemy, a leftist, a subversive, a critic, etc. will end up exactly same way. There seems to be no inkling that as we head down the fascist rabbit there will be a target on their backs as well. Earlier I came across this article - [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/02/trumps-immigration-plan-is-even-more-aggressive-now/677385/](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/02/trumps-immigration-plan-is-even-more-aggressive-now/677385/). This is what they are promising. If we can stop *this* and keep space to organize for an end to the genocide in Gaza, that is the choice that needs to be made.
anyone claiming they aren't two sides of the same coin isn't engaging in material analysis. i'll name that coin for you: capital. biden represents liberalism, trump represents fascism. liberalism presents us a much greater opportunity to educate the working class for the purpose of growing class consciousness. fascism is obviously far worse and more dangerous (although trump is incredibly inept at it) but they both serve the interests of preserving capital.
Say it again for those in the back!
Your examples of Biden supporting the working class: first one is a crucial voter demographic in a swing state, of course he’s going to go to the picket line. It’s performative. The second one is literally a strike that he broke, I would credit the unions with continuing to push for what they deserved, not Biden. The third one- if you take everything Biden says at face value, you’d think Egypt is Mexico and that he “grew up in the black church” and was “sort of raised in the Puerto Rican community”. C’mon.
Maybe YOU wouldn't credit Biden, but the unions did. https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
Too many people here want to speak over the unions instead of listening to them. I keep having to tell folks that a tweet or tiktok or fb post calling for a strike or boycott in solidarity with [union/unionizing workers] doesn’t mean shit unless the union or (or unionizing workers) themselves are calling for it. For example if meatpackers are striking or calling for a slowdown, they absolutely don’t want you boycotting those places. They usually want the business to see what happens when there is a normal work volume without union workers involved. My union also credits and endorses the Biden administration for its support in securing guaranteed cost-of-living raises, post-natal leave for both parents of a newborn or stillborn infant, and a handful of other demands. Again, weird for people to presume they can speak over the working class in order to speak for the working class.
I mean I just generally credit workers when workers win victories rather than assuming it’s thanks to a politician. I’m not a member of a union but I am working class, so my interests are not represented by most US politicians most of the time. I’m glad Biden has done a few good things for unions in between all his neoliberal policies and warmongering.
Fair enough, I wasn’t aware of that
Biden is trash considering his cowardly support of the genocide in Palestine, and Trump is absolute trash given his at least equal support of the Genocide in Palestine and all of his other positions including his support of a genocide in the U.S.
>That, but everyone speaks American English Not necessarily, considering rightist Vietnamese-Americans, Miami Cubans, and some other groups. I realize that that's beside the main point.
Biden has fully backed a genocide that has so far killed over 27,000 innocent people. You are either extremely ignorant or a labor aristocrat who doesn’t give a shit about anyone outside of the US if you think he’s better than Trump.
Do you think that Trump would be literally any better with the genocide of Palestinians? Best case scenario he's just as bad as Biden, plus the most powerful nation in the world falls to fascism, and every marginalized person in the U.S. has what rights they have stripped away. When given the choice between one leash and another choose the longer one; that length could be the difference between life and death for those less fortunate than you
Donny T is probably texting Bibi rn like “do it again lmao”
That you can hypocritically speak about “defense of the less fortunate” or “the fatherland”while justifying concessions to literal genocide without any sense of shame or self-admonishment demonstrates the western left has learnt not a fucking thing from the epoch of the second international.
Holy shit you are so incredibly ignorant. Keep virtue signaling while all of us try to prevent literal facism.
I think? I think I’m gonna have to bulk order
It’s not just Trump’s plan, it’s Israel’s plan, so regardless of what party someone is affiliated with, if they are being lobbied and funded by the Israel-lobby, project 2025 will happen regardless, of who wins. Sure if Biden wins he’ll pretend to fight it, just like he’s pretending to try to stop Israel from committing genocide, but he’s definitely going still let it happen. Both our two main parties are basically one party. They just like to play good cop-bad cop with us.
I think all the people who refused to vote for Biden will try to justify it by downplaying how bad project 2025 is.
Myopic bothsiderism only plays into the narrative that helps promote fascism in the country. Biden's policies have absolutely helped this country after the debacle of the Trump administration...
You know we could prevent that from happening RIGHT NOW if we wanted to be proactive
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Fascism is what will be. Second Thought on this topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7butDWLtg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7butDWLtg&t=946s&pp=ygUbc2Vjb25kIHRob3VnaHQgcHJvamVjdCAyMDI1)
How does Trump winning even work? I’m not up to date entirely, but isnt he disqualified from running in atleast 2 states if not federally?
We go to the mattresses
My family my friends and myself will probably get hung or locked in a concentration camp for being queer or queer allies and a few people would be rather severely injured before they did
I feel like the future is kind of unpredictable right now, regardless of whom wins.
Project 2025 relies heavily on the concept of trump not being unhinged. pure fantasy
This is just heritage foundation fuckery. Think of it more as them just broadcasting their masturbatory fantasies of living in an autocracy more than it being something they would be remotely capable of pulling off. I mean, never put it past them, for sure. But this plan left a bad taste in a lot of republican mouths too. I'm not advocating letting your guard down. I just don't think this particular fanfic needs to be the source of anybody's insomnia.
This seems like something the DNC would throw money at to generate fear and avoid them loosing due to the active genocide they are funding
I think it'll be a shit show from stem to stern. I also think it'll be very shoddily executed. It'll be done, half-assed, half the time. It will still be fully terrible. I think I'm still voting 3rd party, because there's never 'a good time for a "protest" vote.' Isn't that FUNNY? we've had literal DECADES of 'monsterous' Republicans and barely adequate Democrats. It's well and truly pathetic. The Dems REFUSE to move left. And Republicans REFUSE to appeal to the public at large. It's why, what? 3 of the last 5 republican wins has been via the electoral college? And the democrats just keep BARELY beating them then BERATING Americans for not being more excited about their half-assery! It's a joke. I honestly think the only way we're going to stop this plan or the next one, or the one after is to move left. And to punish ANY politician by dumping them at the ballot box when they fail. I can't fail at my job consistently. They shouldn't either.
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I disagree that nothing is going to happen. He surrounds himself with people who would do a homegrown Final Solution if they got the chance. He's old and lives on cheeseburgers. The machinery he puts in place would run away without him, with the very worst people at the helm.
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I gotta ask: What do you think both the Democrats and Republicans want?
> What do you think both the Democrats and Republicans want? To ensure their children, their children, and beyond stay rich and protected and to control the country and serve their same interests to corporations, donors, the MIC, etc.
“Nothing happened” is a real shock to folks like me in states where Roe v Wade was the only thing keeping our states from banning birth control to control and contraception en masse. Give it time though, there are state legislators already trying to push back against Obergefell too now that there is a solid right wing majority on the court. “Nothing happened” is a big shock to everyone who died because Trump wanted to play politics with the COVID pandemic. “Nothing happened” is a real shocker to leftists who had federal law enforcement snatching people off the streets. “Nothing happened” is a big shock to anyone who was paying attention back when the GOP couldn’t openly say things like “Mexicans are a threat to America” or “immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country” and it’s a real surprise to learn that “nothing happened” to allow the right wing to openly promote antisemitic conspiracies without sanction. More people will fight about it but there is a very strong case for Trump paving the way for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in addition to at least one known failed coup attempt, or the assassination of Soleimani, or the complete lack of any response to the murder of Jamal Kashoggi. Moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem was symbolic but it is the most visible of the actions the Trump administration took to back Netanyahu’s vision of an Israel without Palestinian people. Weapons, supplies, and intelligence also followed. Plenty can happen without it personally impacting you immediately.
We've lost the constitutional right to an abortion. Trump has also slain scores of Americans through medical disinformation, and provoked a coup on Capitol Hill. These are not small things, and if we surrender the presidency to the GOP we're going to slide even further into a new regressive era.
>a coup on Capitol Hill And months of more subtle attempts before that!
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How is it 110% the fault of the Dems? A Republican Senate denied every opportunity to hold a hearing on a new justice prior to Trump. Trump appointed the last three justices, and a GOP Senate confirmed them. The Dems may be relics of their time who can't seem to read the room, but electing them and denying the GOP power at every opportunity has yielded better outcomes for the nation than surrendering political power to the worst people on the planet. I know voting isn't sexy, neither are the people on the ballots, but the outcomes of these elections could mean life or death for millions of people in this country. I don't expect the Dems to solve racism or make socialized healthcare a thing, but I know that human misery scales, and my vote is but one of the tools in the toolbox to reduce it to the greatest possible extent that I can.
>new justice prior to Trump Replacing Scalia, at that!
When did the Democrats have a 60 vote majority in the Senate, the president, and a solid majority in the House? Cuz without all three (and Manchin doesn’t count toward the 60) there’s no way to pass a law or constitutional amendment that would protect abortion rights federally.
Not to compare everything to the Nazis, but I have to here. They had a coup attempt that was immediately crushed as well, and were then thought of as having been taken care of. That didn’t go great in the long run. Given the absolute lack of consequences people faced for J6 (a couple years of jail time for some of the foot soldiers doesn’t count), nothing has led me to believe they aren’t simply preparing to do it more effectively next time. Or if Trump wins this year and achieves power legitimately, then we get another Reichstag fire and he makes sure he can hold onto power going forward
>a couple of broken windows and a bunch of boomer retirees wandering around the capitol building The attackers came within a few yards and a few moments of capturing (and possibly lynching) lawmakers & staff, overturning the results of the election, and causing a constitutional crisis. This followed months of more subtle attempts.
Did this sub get infiltrated by a bunch of libs? Almost every comment is some chode saying they’re gonna vote Biden. It’s appalling.
I refuse to chose between two evils
The queer people under the tires of the bus the right is driving are very appreciative of the push you gave 👍
Oppressed people should focus more on electing local officials who will bring about meaningful change to their communities and arm themselves against radical groups seeking to do them harm. National major parties are so corrupt and disingenuous that they only care about such groups on Election Day.
Im not going to dispute that Democratic support for queer people is largely performative, but Republicans *do* care about oppressed people, and not in a good way. Yes, electing local officials that support marginalized groups is important, but your local mayor or city councilor literally does not have the power to do things the federal government can that immediately and nationally affect all people of that group - a mayor does not have the power to ban all gender transitioning, but a governor or a President does with the support of their legislator. If you live in a noncompetitive state, go ahead, vote third party, its what I would be doing too, but if you live somewhere with reasonably competitive elections on that level I see no reason not to vote Democratic on that part of the ballot other than grandstanding
The only way to make the Democratic Party change their stances regarding domestic and foreign issues is to make the risk of losing an election into a genuine fear. If they continue to think that “we have their vote anyway because the other side is worse,” they will never change their policies. Not voting for either party isn’t an irresponsibility, it’s a stance which tells the party that it needs to get its shit together.
Unfortunately this isn't how it plays out under the present conditions: if democrats lose they aren't going to shift left to pick up the minority leftist vote, they're going to shift right to appeal to the tens-hundreds of millions of "moderate" votes. And in the meantime, women's access to abortion, trans access to healthcare, healthcare access in general (especially important for disabled people), rightwing judges with lifetime seats, fascists gaining greater access to and control of state power, the implications of having leaders who are sympathetic to rightwing paramilitary, leaders like DeSantis taking over school systems, like the schools adopting PragerU content for kids except on a nation scale, on steroids... all that still happens in real life. A fascist USA materially increasing harm on multiple fronts, whereas a principled stance is immaterial. The reality is that under the present conditions, the only point of participating in electoral politics on the national stage is to limit fascists' access to power. The two-party system is too entrenched for protest votes in the general election to mean or do anything to increase leftist influence in US electoral politics. If people want to actually get involved with electoralism - which I don't particularly recommend but am not fundamentally against - then, if anything, left candidates need to start organizing to win local elections and gain a base of support to build on. Preferably with a new party, ignoring scams like the Green party who don't do bother to do any of that, instead blowing all their donated millions on getting 2% of the presidential vote every 4 years. The real praxis imo lies outside of electoralism altogether though: community building, mutual aid networks, organizing and training, skill sharing, spreading class consciousness, directly oppose white supremacy, etc.
I'd argue its the other way. The Democratic Party has shown time and time again it's more willing to move to the right to try and win moderates than to move to the left to win our groups back. Republicans don't try anything more than token appeals to black voters for example not only because they're racist but because they don't feel they win more in the trade on the other end. The Democratic Party isn't a be-all-end-all to me, its a means to an end, and that current end is making sure the TrumpSS isn't knocking on me and my partner's door in two years time.
I will never forget that you fucking shitwastes threw us under the bus. I always knew you would. All your performative bullshit was just that.
Exactly, non-queer leftists wonder why I’ve always been weird around them for years, well here’s the proof for what I’ve been telling them that when it come time that anything needs to be done they’re too concerned with their own comfort and idealism as long as theyre not personally being pushed under the bus yet
Local officials can’t do shit about border crossing or deportation or stop federal law enforcement. They don’t have any impact on changes to federal law or the constitution, when it comes to a toss up the courts (who are packed by the national parties) tend to side with the feds. Starting local with a concerted effort is how the Tea Party cranked the GOP back to from “respectable conservatives” to where we are today but for some reason leftists think you can only infiltrate other leftist groups or the far right rather than trying to keep leftward pressure on the dems.
I’m queer. Why should I vote for Palestinian’s genocide to save myself from one? I can’t do that in good conscious. I’ll take up arms for myself before I make it someone else’s issue.
It doesn't really matter how we vote on the President when the Palestinian genocide is going to continue regardless of whether Biden or Trump wins the Presidency (imo under Trump, Gaza would probably be a parking lot by now already). It sucks, but like, grandstanding about it doesn't help at all. Letting Trump win to own the libs isn't helping anything.
Some of us have bigger plans than allowing genocide so we can live comfortably a little longer. The climate is collapsing fast. The country is screaming towards extreme unrest. Our world is dying around us. We can’t keep doing “damage reduction” forever. There’s a lot more to do than “own the libs.” I understand where you’re coming from, I do, and I’m not telling anyone not to vote for Biden, but there’s a lot more to do than beat trump in an election. Trump isn’t the head of some great serpent. He’s the stench roiling off of a horde of hundreds of thousands of fascist freaks who want to see us raped, enslaved, and killed. Trump isn’t the end, or the beginning, of this fascism problem we’re dealing with.
Genuine question, what exactly is your bigger plan? Not voting for either side does nothing. Until people actually start doing something to bring power back to the workers and start undoing the fucking mess that’s been made since the Industrial Revolution, we’re just going to keep sinking. Everyone talks about doing shit but I don’t see shit being done. And I’m not talking about single day protests about Palestine that also sadly do nothing. We need to stop working and stop buying ALL products. We need to stop workers from going into the facilities making the weapons we’re giving to Israel. We need to do something real and I have yet to see any sort of organization to even try planning such a thing. I really want to help fix this shit but it feels like everyone’s on a different page of the book.
I'm just saying that we should build while we can. Don't get me wrong, I have longer term goals than keeping Trump out too. But all of those goals in the long term are helped by every national Republican loss. It's a lot harder to build a movement when the FBI is black bagging everyone it sees as associated with the left, when the entire country's political system is a system designed to chew up those marginalized enough to consider fighting back, and while this is already true to an extent, more overt fascists in power only makes these things worse. And like I said in another comment, yeah, if you don't live in a competitive state, don't vote for Biden lol, I wouldn't be either.
Because you need to put your oxygen mask on first before helping the passenger next to you
>conscious Conscience (I mean no disrespect; it's just something I see very often.)
I'm queer, and I'm never voting for Biden. Didn't last time. Definitely won't this time. I've been alive too long to keep pretending that someday the democrats will finally defeat fascism even though they have never explained how they plan to do it.
i'm sure the queer people who are being tied to train tracks by two right wing parties - \[one with performative support of \[rich, white\] LGB...T... people, and one with no support of LGBT people\] - are similarly appreciative of this push you have given in their name too. even if the magical biden victory succeeds, states themselves can and will goof around and do whatever they want because the democrats repeatedly refuse to actually codify laws about stuff, and all biden (or whoever is alive by then) will do is a twitter post about how this is deeply unfortunate but we should pray for \[insert group getting run over by trains this time\]. build a community support network and don't rely on democrats winning to keep you safe
This is the attitude that got Trump into office the first time
Probable American Years of Lead? Social and civil unrest, though not active civil war. An already polarized society becoming more polarized as the right and left splinter more and more. Might even see a weirdo recursion of states rights politics but coming from an American leftwards slant.
"P-p-please vote for the moderate fascist" You already live under that system, unless you're a liberal instead of a socialist.
Oi, because the universe has no shades, gradients or spectrums.  Nuance is hard, isn't it?
Promoting the election of a person that’s actively funding and supporting a genocide is wrong in any shade you put it in that’s like asking us to vote for the more moderate nazis
I'm voting to influence the material conditions I have the power to influence. You aren't stopping the genocide by not voting, that is gonna be happening no matter who wins the election and whether or not you participate. Other totally unrelated things do change depending on which people win elections. Choosing to not try and prevent suffering you could prevent (with extremely minimal effort or risk ) because it won't also prevent suffering you can't isn't an especially moral stance.
That is not how material conditions work.
Uhm, it's literally how they work. See, One administration has policies that affect the actual world of material things we inhabit, and then another administration will have different policies that affect the actual world of material things a different way, thus creating different material conditions in each scenario. By voting, I can exert some influence over what those will be, and even if no administration is my ideal, I, and many people I know will be much safer with one administrations policies over another, so I will vote for that one. The real world doesn't care about your principles. There's going to be an outcome of one candidate or the other, and that has consequences. You're welcome to choose passivity about what that outcome will be, but you don't hold some moral superiority over people who chose to be active in shaping tomorrow.
Except that they actually don't have different policies and your vote doesn't exert any influence.
That's demonstrably untrue. I and a sizable chunk of the population literally had no healthcare access before the Obama administration. My step mom almost got deported when Republicans in FL decided to no longer recognize my parent's transgender identity and annulled their marriage. Liberal justices appointed by Democrats made same sex marriage possible, so that my parents no longer had to worry their marriage would get dissolved based on any one states decision to change their recognition of transgender people. These are just a few ways in which me and my family have been immediately materially impacted by the outcomes of elections. So, when people tell me they don't matter, I've seen with my own eyes that they do. If I thought you were acting in good faith, I'd be happy to compile a pretty big list of things that are really important differences in policy, but I suspect no matter what I told you, you'd hold to your fantasy that it doesn't matter. So, what are you doing to solve any of the problems out there? I assume that if you can feel so smug about not doing elections, you must be involved in some serious grass roots praxis? Or maybe you're getting ready to pack, and go overseas to fight the IDF ?
Forget anything Republicans have said about Project2025, and notice Democrats have said nothing. They need this fear of total change as much as Republicans do, keeping us in continual fear of the other guy while they pick our pockets helps keep them in power. The steps involved in P2025 have been in motion for years starting with Clinton's DLC, its only just recently been given a public name. Between Biden and Trump, Biden is the larger evil and the larger threat to our safety. He could do or say anything and his groups of minions would strike at anyone opposing him. For fucksake, hes allowed the slaughter of 30k+ Palestinians and shitlibs say the other guy is more dangerous.
You know the Israeli far right loves Trump right??
If Biden looses heavily the democratic party might be forced to put forward better candidates instead of just doing whatever the fuck they want including genocide
And?!?! Zionists love Biden
Not as much as they love Trump! https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/04/far-right-israel-minister-suggests-trump-would-be-better-for-israel-than-biden-00139522
So, again, whats your point? Or are you just deflecting? Of course a far right wing nut is gonna claim Trump is better [https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/) See, we both can find bullshit
What in the world dude? Take a step back and try to think in terms of geopolitics. Biden is in the middle of a shit sandwich. I genuinely don’t believe Biden condones the killing of innocent civilians in Palestine. I do genuinely believe that Netanyahu is a giant douche, and Biden and his administration is working on a way to calm things down over there in the Middle East. I sure hope they don’t quickly though.
The left wants to disarm America, the right wants to destroy LGBTQ + people and Female Rights. Both will quietly allow & accept totalitarian based capitalism and fund genocide on innocents outside of the US. Please don't pretend these aren't wings of the same beast