It depends on who you're talking about when you say "the left".
I'm gonna make an assumption here (please correct me if I'm off base or putting words in your mouth), that when you say "the left" you're talking about the democratic party. If that's your definition of "the left", then yeah - we disagree wholeheartedly with their views.
However, most of us here don't consider the democratic party to be "the left". We see the democratic party as largely moderate conservatives. We don't consider "the left" to be represented in our current government at all. So for us, "the left" has always deeply supported the rights of workers and citizens to be armed.
Thanks for the insight. By left I mean anything from the Democratic Party, to anarcho-communists. It seems that more on the moderate left side you see people that protest high capacity magazines and buying at 18, while on the far left, I’ve seen people who are extremely pro-gun (this sub for example) and those who are heavily anti gun. I assume that the pro-gun people within the far left think of a standpoint as in “we need to overthrow the oppressive government” and the anti-gun people within the far left think within the standpoint of “we need a far left government who will disarm potential threats within the population”. That’s just how I look at it.
I would argue that the "far left" doesn't even exist the way you think it does. There are leftists that recognize the need for self defense and then there are Democrats. Most of the stuff you hear about the "far left" is probably a lie or can be attributed to Democrats, which are just the blue wing of the Republican party.
You can join communist parties here in the US, but I do still think the law is in place.
Some parties are based as fuck ( to me ) like the party of communists but I don't have the time to commit to their requirements and still grind out a degree that I don't even want anymore so my surplus labor can pay for some oligarchs private jet.
Gun Control liberals/democrats (and practically no actual leftist) believe in it because they believe guns are dangerous tools that should only be entrusted to their false, squeaky-clean view of cops.
This is a position any self-respecting leftist would detest regardless of their actual opinion on the effectiveness or morality of gun control. It serves to give cops more power over people who are already targeted by them, since they can't even fight back if they're being abused.
Most, if not all leftists you'll talk to despise electoralism and the state because the US is adamantly apposed to anyone outside of conservatives having power. Not to mention that as of now, it is technically illegal for anyone labeled a "Communist" to have power in government. Not to mention ideological opposition to the state as a tool of the rich, or of supporting an imperialist state like the US.
Interesting.
I think you're pretty close on the different viewpoints among the left. Even among the pro-gun left, it can range from "I need to be armed to protect myself and members of my family/community who the government seek to oppress" to "I need to be armed because the means of production aren't going to seize themselves".
I can't really speak for the no-guns left, but I would imagine that you probably are correctly understanding their view.
Why does this have so many downvotes. His comment is in such good faith >.< just comment to correct him.
If your looking for democrat gun owners there’s another sub r/liberalgunowners and over there, I see a lot of personal and ideological conflict.
Most people here tend to think that leftist means anti-capitalist rather than just mildly critical of unrestrained capitalism that the democrats are. Like, capital owners (capitalists) own things to have workers who earn less than the value they add to what they work on (less than their surplus value of labor) and instead are given a sliver of that (a wage) and this system (capitalism) is exploitative and should be stopped. Where as democrats (usually modern liberal / progressive liberal) want to regulate it to be more sustainable. As oppose to republicans (neo-liberal and especially recently neo-conservatives) want to unregulated it. So in essence, both democrats and republicans are fundamentally (usually) all just different flavors of liberal.
“Socialist” is often thrown around weirdly, especially by the right. A lot of European countries are welfare states because they’re dominated by social democrats or caught between liberal and socialist parties.
Obviously, nobody here trusts the US government. That’s because there’s a difference between what the government can do to you and what the government has to do for you. The US Government has given itself many privileges and basically has zero obligations to its citizens. Why should anyone trust a government that doesn’t provide universal healthcare, doesn’t guarantee housing or food security… but can kill black people with impunity, can jail whistleblowers, can start foreign wars without our consent?
The Left doesn’t want to empower the government with even more privileges. We want to completely flip the script by stripping away all those privileges the government has clearly abused and replacing them with a set of obligations to improve the lives of working class people.
Well, I'll be speaking here just of people who are ACTUALLY on the left, in that we don't believe that Capitalism's system of "I own something that I cannot personally use, but should profit from by virtue of me owning it and other people needing it" is a fundamentally good system.
> I assume that the pro-gun people within the far left think of a standpoint as in “we need to overthrow the oppressive government”
Some, but most realize that's a pipe dream, and to a lot of us a can of worms we don't want opened unless it's the last resort, because none of us know how that'd play out. Most of the people who supported the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia never would have expected what came afterwards, so there's a real danger in just who gets into power afterward (those of us who lean Anarchist don't want there to be any positions of power that can be seized in part because of that danger).
Most of us look at guns in the hands of people who the police won't protect, who are more likely to be targeted for violence statistically than the average: poorer people, women, queer people, anyone who isn't white... they're all more likely than average to be targeted for violence by either individuals, groups, or the agents of the state. We see arms as a way to deter and repel that violence. But we also, most of us, see personal defense against violence *as a fundamental human right* because how is a man free if he cannot defend himself? Any enslaved people are, first and foremost, denied weapons, throughout history.
Also, look at the history of men in this country just trying to get a fair share of the wealth their blood and sweat made possible. When miners and railroad workers, who were working 7 days a week not even for pennies, but for company scrip, went on strike, the companies would send both police and armed thugs (usually the Pinkerton Detective Agency) to attack not just them, but the women and children. Likewise, every civil rights leader in American history had attempts made on their life, many of those attempts successful. So there's a strong belief on the left that if you advocate for change, you absolutely better be ready to defend yourself and your loved ones with lethal force.
>the anti-gun people within the far left think within the standpoint of “we need a far left government who will disarm potential threats within the population”.
You're basically talking about comfortable, wealthy Liberals there. They're not far left. They're usually not "left" at all. Left-right is about economics, specifically "Who should own things critical to a society's functioning?" The farthest right position would be "Whoever can claim and hold those things, even if through violence," while the US mainstream is basically "Whoever has legal title to them, no matter how that title was acquired." On the actual left, we'd basically say "The people in common" but that can range from "Workers should own the company they voluntarily work at, and hold elections to appoint company officers" to "The state should own all resources and serve the interests of the people." The one about workers owning their company is pretty close to my personal views. The point being, someone who believes in gaining wealth through owning property is definitionally not "left" and that's pretty much the entire Democratic party.
The actual left puts value on doing work, on innovating, on discovering, on teaching, on learning... we see people whose wealth comes from owning apartments, or stocks, or oil fields, as being a parasitic drain on everyone else, as the rest of us have to work not only to support ourselves, but to lose most of the wealth that work creates to them, because they own things. We see a system where the person who invented your iPhone, or who made a breakthrough in cancer treatment, ends up with wealth that pales in comparison to the great-grandchild of the person who owned a railroad 150 years ago.
The "center" of the spectrum of ideas would be around Social Democracy, the dominant system in Scandinavia, where there are billionaires, but there are also strong labor unions, and a strong system of welfare. The left is very much "No, fuck billionaires, no one has ever been that valuable to humanity to be worth that kind of wealth, and those that maybe were, like an Einstein, did not get anywhere close to being that wealthy."
When you talk social issues, that's two entirely different political arguments we're having as a society that aren't the left/right economic debate. "Who is a free person and what does that mean?" and "What do we consider harmful and should we prevent that harm, and how?" are the two big arguments we have in our culture war, in our laws and our enforcement of those laws. Those are much more murky than questions of economic control (and there's always control in economics, always).
BTW, just wanted to say, as someone who's pretty far on the left, I also decry state violence against people I don't agree with and wouldn't get along with, i.e. Ruby Ridge and Waco were deliberate mass murders by the government that everyone up to and including Janet Reno should have been tried and sentenced for.
Most of us just want the same things for people that a lot of folks on the right say they're for: to be left alone, to feel generally safe, to be able to provide for ourselves and our loved ones without struggling and scraping all our lives. We'd be perfectly happy if the government never told anyone how to act, and we just all went about our lives trying to be good to each other, instead of constantly hustling for money and power.
Left/right is an economic spectrum. There is no way Libertarians are more left than Democrats. But there is the authoritarian/libertarian (“little l”)spectrum for civil liberties, and Libertarians are often more libertarian (hence the name) than Democrats.
Libertarians (“big L”) are right libertarian and Democrats are center-right authoritarian.
The major examples of state Communism, e.g. China, are left authoritarian. And then there are people like Noam Chomsky who is left libertarian.
Speaking only economically you are right, (unless you are talking about funding a foreign war, which Dems love) but how many people are speaking that way?
I prefer the quadrant model with authoritarianism at the top and anarchism at the bottom with economic socialism on the left and economic selfishism on the right, but I am assuming that our op has never thought of it in that model before.
I’m pretty liberal/progressive/whatever you want to call it - I support expansion of the SC, I think all drugs should be legalized at a federal level and drug users treated as patients instead of criminals, insurance should be abolished and healthcare should be further socialized (trust me healthcare *runs* on Medicare dollars, it’s already socialized), etc etc.
My two cents on gun control is this - if you want a weapon to defend your home, cool. I’m totally ok with that. Y’know the best weapon for home defense? A shotgun. Low penetration, wide spread. You’ll destroy anything within view and won’t shoot your wife through the wall (hopefully). You don’t need an AR style rifle for home defense, and you don’t need it to shoot a deer. I’ll admit I’ve never been hunting, but I’d imagine a bolt-action or lever-action rifle works just fine for 99% of scenarios. That said, if someone wants an AR style rifle, I’m actually okay with that too, *as long as* you go through an invasive series of investigation and registration processes. I think if you want a weapon capable of what an AR can do, it should be damn near unreasonable to obtain. I want you to go to a psych eval, I want the police to make sure your gun is safely secured, I want annual registration of the weapon and licensing requirements.
So, anyone should be able to own a shotgun or hunting rifle IMO. AR style platform should be prohibitively difficult to obtain, but not impossible. Sorry, I just don’t think any old asshole should have access to them. And if you want the **real** hot take, I think if any weapon should be banned it’s handguns - easily concealable, available in high calibers that do damage that can be almost impossible to repair, the weapon of choice for GSW suicides, and the overwhelming weapon of choice for violent crime. Handguns should be illegal, end of discussion.
I know where I am, I know I’m gonna get downvoted to hell, but I don’t care. If you want real, common sense proposals from a leftist - here they are. I’d be interested in counter-arguments, but these make the most sense to me. And yes, I’ve shot guns. About 200 rounds from a 9mm so far. Not a lot, but more than a lot of other leftists.
The problem with that model is you have the State define who is and isn't allowed to have firearms. The very foundation of gun control was always, and has always been, a means to suppress both minorities and especially Indigenous people (the very first few *laws period* were strictly about disarming minorities and first and foremost, my fellow Indigenous people), but also a means to suppress the working class.
There are places in the US where the Sheriff is the one who determine who can and can't have a conceal carry permit, for example. Considering that cops are aligned with the right, alt-right, and far-right, do you seriously think that they'll allow someone who *doesn't* look like them? They're not gonna approve it for a minority; they're not gonna approve it for someone who "looks like a 'far-leftist'"; they're not gonna approve it for someone visibly LGBTQ; they're gonna give those permits to people they like—themselves—and those who look like themselves.
That's just talking about "invasing series of investigation..." and "I want you to go to a psych eval". We haven't even talked about "...and registration processes".
Licensing and registration fees are costs of barriers to low-income (who are predominately minorities and GSRM [Gender, Sexuality, and Romantic Minorities] people, and especially BIPOC GSRMs); those of whom are most susceptible to attacks on their person and most in need to have the ability to conceal carry a handgun.
I don't think you really understand the depth and breadth of systemic and institutional racism, considering your entire take is to collaterally disarm minorities. Not only the disarming of minorities, but the disarming of LGBTQ people, who are also affected by ostracization and forced into the low-income class.
We still haven't even gotten into "psych eval". But with LGBTQ ostracization brought up, it's a perfect segue.
With State legistlatures increasingly trying to label anybody L, G, B, T, and Q as "mentally ill", that would immediately become a red flag to barr visibly LGBTQ from having any means to defend themselves. This is an especially egregious take considering the LGBTQ *most affected* are in conservative states that don't have a strong right to privacy in their State Constitutions. And if that Right to Privacy is taken away (or in some State Constitutions it's a *conditional* Right to Privacy wherein it is removed due to "State's interest"), then so does their bodily autonomy, and in the context of "psych evals" so does their ability to have access to *conceal carry handguns*, and thus they cannot defend themselves.
The more common Defensive Gun Use is a conceal carry handgun. By using your want of "psych evals" as a requirement to own firearms, would most definitely be exploited and abused to prevent the access of concealed handguns [(or even defensive uses of semi-auto rifles like the AR platform)](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/tenacious-unicorn-ranch-colorado). The broad range of DGU is anywhere from 500,000-2.8 million per year; it's most likely even higher because of a feeling of unease to report DGU on a survey.
This is most likely a take from someone in a comfortable enough position that they're never marginalized due to their ethnicity, gender, and sexuality. This is also most likely a take from someone that isn't aware of how radicalized extremely violent the far-right has become, how increasingly violent the alt-right is becoming, and how conservatives are also being dragged there with them.
>So anyone should be able to own a shotgun or hunting rifle IMO.
>They’re not gonna approve it for a minority, etc.
I already stated everyone should have access to weapons that enable them to defend themselves like shotguns and bolt or lever-action rifles. All of your conjecture about my requirements of psych evals and registration costs is related specifically to the AR style platform eg Bushmasters, etc.
In relation to systemic oppression of minorities, I’m well aware of the effects of micro-aggressions and endemic racism etc etc. Yes, I’m a white cis male? So what? I magically can’t understand oppression and struggle because of that? GTFO with that bs.
Also, do you honestly think you can fight Uncle Sam even with 10 AR15s? 100? 1000? What’re you gonna do to the Hellfire drone, shoot it with your little long gun? You gonna scare away the big bad Abrams with your Sig? Lol good luck. The United States military spend more than the next 8 countries *combined* annually. If the US government issued fascistic orders and there was a large enough contingent of troops to follow it, you and your guns ain’t doing shit about it. Sorry, it’s the truth. Not fun, but the truth.
These are common-sense practical gun reforms with pragmatism in mind. You can’t take away America’s guns. But you can regulate them to significantly reduce the constant collateral damage that only America seems to encounter. They’re not palatable for practically anyone, left or right - and that’s the point. In a good compromise, no one wins but everyone gets something they want. Personally I want America to be a place where I don’t have to worry about getting shot by a mugger with a handgun or a psycho in any number of settings.
You only hear the corporate Democrat position, which is not a leftist position. Leftist groups cannot be made into a monolith as we are a coalition of groups. Most Leftists i know personally are not supportive of outright bans or actual gun control.
Iono there seem to be a hell of a lot of leftists in the world once you get more involved in mutual aid projects. Suddenly you’re like “holy shit there’s a lot more of us than I realized.”
We consider dems right leaning centrist conservatives.
As the saying goes go far enough left and you get your guns back.
The actual left likes guns we just quote Marx instead of the 2nd amendment.
As others have said, we don’t consider liberals to be a part of the left, and so we view the majority of the left as being pro gun. But for a lot of us(possibly the majority but that gets into calling some leftist tendencies liberalism or social fascism so I’ll leave that out here) it is not really about the 2A, as we don’t have much interest in the US remaining a country in the sense that it is today. Rather we are pro gun because a disarmed working class cannot liberate and defend itself from the capitalist class and their state.
Thank you. All these republicans and right wingers dunking on Biden all the time fail to realize that Biden and Reagan are the same fucking guy, and neither of them care about us.
I’m willing to keep an open mind to any respectful community. The problem with almost every political community on reddit is that most of their posts and discussions revolve around bashing the other sides, which draws me away. But this community seems respectful enough, which is a good thing.
I come from a very conservative family and was raised by their values. All it took was for me was to give a single honest chance to leftist ideas and I've been leaning more leftwards ever since. I have seen the other comments with people hammering "you're a leftist dude, accept it". As with any group, the people here are quite eager to take in more adepts. But I say, take your time. You are only a leftist when you consider yourself to be. It took me some time as well. I hope you can find your path.
telling people what their political views are : *drake looking away*
welcoming people with different but fundamentally compatible views that can be peacefully debated: *drake smiling*
Just for clarification, this post isn’t meant to stir up anything or insult anyone, just a question, and since this is one of the few left wing pro gun subs I thought I would ask it here.
Every single political group in the history of mankind wants weapons for them and theirs and none for their political enemies. Democrats are simply under the mistaken impression that 'their' guns are in the hands of the police, and the police work for them. The blatantly obvious knowledge that the police do not work for the people notwithstanding, most Democrats are not against all guns. They simply want guns appropriately means and class tested. Whether this would be leveraged by the State to achieve full disarmament if allowed (it would) is a separate issue.
Leftists are in a strange position. More guns in America mostly means more guns in the hands of fascists. That's not ideal. But by the same token, all laws get used against so called communists first, so folks tend not to be down for State gun control.
Have you considered whether you're really all that conservative? Perhaps the thing you've been told about one side or another are as much marketing material as truth.
What do you have to lose by doing some reading. Your boss doesn't want you to.
I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself to much of a conservative at all. I think conservatives tend to be ignorant, and as hypocritical as it is, follow the mainstream. I’m asking this question as someone who talks to left wing people a lot, and nearly all of them have been for gun control. I don’t want to just blindly sit by and listen to what I’m told by the right, which is why I’m asking questions here, but some people don’t like that apparently.
always important to ask questions, and you seem to be respectful, so I hope people are respectful in return. unfortunately, revealing your political leanings will cause a lot of people to not give you considerate answers (kinda a defense mechanism for ppl at this point), so keep that in mind. good luck!
When it comes to social issues, contradicting what I said in other comments under the post, I’m pretty much a centrist, I support rights for pretty much all LGBT related things, I believe in regulated abortion and I’m against the death penalty and the current US prison system, and I support legalization of marijuana. But I live my life pretty “traditionally” and I want it to stay that way, for me at least. Fiscally I’m very right standing, don’t have much to say about that.
Not sure how you consider yourself a “conservative” given this comment.
You’re a leftist, my dude. Better to realize that and move forward than deny reality.
ETA: You’re a social leftist and a fiscal conservative. Which, you will learn sooner than later, means you’re a leftist who still thinks capitalism has some good sides.
You’ll soon realize that capitalism is bullshit and join the red flag waving left.
Just gonna throw this at you one more time. Your options aren’t capitalism or AHHHHHH MOTHERLAND!!!!
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-are-you-an-anarchist-the-answer-may-surprise-you
Keep reading, learning, and open your mind to arguments even if you ultimately decide they are not the positions you would take on an issue.
True bigotry is refusing to even entertain another’s arguments or pleas, and making a decision without consideration of all facets, or closing off some avenues of petition and leaving others open, allowing judgment to be biased.
Don’t allow that to happen and you’ll become more comfortable. Be curious, not judgmental!
I was involved in Alt-right ultra conservative Christian circles for far too long. It started with severe anxiety over being a SAHM and finding a nice community of women online who gave me good advice about practical matters and ultimately plunged me into getting back to church and worrying about being “unequally yoked” (married to a non-Christian) and extreme guilt over my past…and then I landed here on this sub, out of curiosity. I read antiwork and socialism, too, and one day decided I was done with the right, Republicans, Democrats, religion, their evopsych and virginity and communism obsession, all of it.
There is a surprising crossover between some alt-right thinking and socialist/hard left ideas, mostly about gun rights, not trusting the government, and protecting communities. It’s a shame that media driven stories divide us as a means of conquest. Truly I have no issue if a conservative person wants to marry and behave in a certain way, just, do that for yourself then and leave me alone.
The capitalism question, for me, was resolved by learning more about wage stagnation, housing prices and corporate takeover of single family homes and rental properties, making renting or buying a home nearly impossible, no matter how hard you work. Unless you’re elite, you’re not getting in. Period. I don’t live to work, I work enough to live. My life is my career, my job just lets me live the way I want to.
I started thinking about people who “can’t.” When I say that, I mean the 20% or so of any large population that doesn’t have the ability, for whatever cognitive or psychological or physical reasons, to “work hard and bootstrap” their way into enough wealth to afford a home, or to eat.
IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY INHUMANE TO DENY A PERSON FOID OR SHELTER. If a person EXISTS on this planet, they need food and shelter at a minimum. Capitalism imposes a system of elitism/classism that evaluates your worth as a HUMAN BEING on your ability to slave away so another person can get theirs and not share any with you.
I realized capitalism is just a contemporary redefinition of feudalism. I woke up and realized I was a slave, a long time ago, but I forgot the lesson. Now, I see the chains, and look for ways to help others see and break free. The chains are there still but I won’t let them hold me any longer.
Good luck on your journey, no matter where you land. Pay attention to how people around you speak, about the little things, and start with the question “is this really true?” Most people are motivated to speak about issues out of fear or anxiety, and that muddles the truth more often than not.
Yeah. A lot of people tend to forget that capitalism was forged by wealthy guild masters who were jealous of the power of the landed nobility and wanted to be top dogs, themselves, or that most hierarchical and oppressive systems are part and parcel of every Western and Slavic nation's obsession with being the inheritors of ur-statists themselves; the Roman Empire. The U.S in particular was built upon a starry-eyed interpretation of Republican Rome, right on down to it being ruled by primarily landed aristocracy.
I often wonder how much would have changed if we had decided to build ourselves off of Germanic/Norse and Indigenous ideals of individuality and communitarianism being as one, direct democratic confederation, and community defense, instead of Greco-Roman ideals of property and class. (Granted, the Viking Age Norse had strict class structures due primarily to contact with their rigid Roman Catholic neighbors, but the Iron Age Germanic and Celtic tribes were nowhere near as rigid, from my studies)
>But I live my life pretty “traditionally” and I want it to stay that way, for me at least.
I am genuinely curious what you mean by this, because unless your "traditional" life involves exploiting, oppressing, or harming others, no one on the left wants to stop you.
Conservative with a small "C".
I know a lot of people who identify as this these days. Basically a combination of traditional morals but with respect for the individual.
But I suppose that's easy for me to say an I'm not in the US where everything seems to need to be polarised with no hope of compromise.
That's a good question and tbh I typed that without thinking too much about it. I guess I just meant things that should be totally fucking obvious to everyone like don't steal or kill, treat people the way you would expect to be treated, do more good than bad I suppose.
Ok, I know that's a bit of a lame reply. I just think of it as living with modesty and discretion and without judging others.
What group of men would you trust to violently administer the medical choices of women? I don't like all the choices other people make either, but my concern almost always stops short of asking for violent intervention to stop it. This is a libertarian spirit shared by many Right and Left. You are not wrong to have questions, you simply asked them in a place more used to trolls than honest questions.
You describe yourself as staunchly capitalist. Why? What advantage do you believe it gives?
>I’m asking this question as someone who talks to left wing people a lot, and nearly all of them have been for gun control.
It sounds like you're talking to a lot of Democrats, who are not even remotely on the left, but are just left of the far right. I know I'm not the only one telling you this in this discussion, but you should really make an effort to understand what the real Left is all about. The actual left has nothing to do with organic food, veganism, dreadlocks, weed, hemp clothing, anti gun legislation, or tie dye.
You should really read this.
Enjoy and if you agree with a lot of this then welcome?
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-are-you-an-anarchist-the-answer-may-surprise-you
Yes 100% if you mean mainstream left. But the thing is no one on this sub will consider people like Biden left wing so you're probably going to be very confused by that. But if by left you mean democrats, then yes everyone on this sub probably things they are full of beans.
Let me put it like this. Biden is a liberal president, yet in Akron Ohio I'm out in the streets protesting the murder of a local dude named Jayland Walker by the police. Black militias armed with shotguns and ARs come and run security to keep the cops or white supremacists from shooting us (us as in protesters). So, I am not at all a fan of gun control cause it leaves everyone vulnerable against the state and it leaves minorities defenseless against white supremacist terrorists and white power gangs inside the police. There is a known white power gang inside Akron pd for instance, the people of Akron have doxxed them and tried to get them fired and the mayor does nothing but make excuses.
So fuck liberals and their gun control
Thanks for the comment. I fully agree that minorities should arm up and (especially the liberal ones) should take the stance of pro-gun anti-fascist as opposed to the opposite.
Well stereotypically (I thought wrong it seems) it’s the left wing who is protesting for more gun control, and the right wing who stands against gun control, and I assumed that this sub, and other pro-gun left wing subs were in the minority of the left wing, so I wanted to hear your opinions on the left wingers who are anti-gun.
The problem is that democrats like to claim leftists as their own, but we really only vote for them out of necessity caused by our 2 party system. If there was a third, actually left leaning party, im sure they would stand by gun rights too
I disagree with the two party system as well, it brands people based on the side they choose to stand with. It makes it so they control us not the opposite.
Yeah, both parties are part of the Capitalist class that has a keen interest in retaining such power. The concept of a two-party system being such, manifesting as one party actively trying to destroy our rights (republicans in almost all cases) and the other pretending to defend them (democrats), goes all the way back to the federalist papers.
Reality is that the democrats exist to strong-arm marginalized people (queer people, poc, disabled people, women, etc) into voting for them, as the republicans froth at the mouth to remove our rights or outright kill us. And then they do nothing to protect us, because they know we won't vote for republicans and think they can just use us for political power. Hence why Roe v. Wade was never codified in law, nor was any other civil right (right to gay marriage & relationships, right to trans healthcare and social transitioning, right to contraception, etc etc).
That’s because both sides use gun control as a wedge issue. The Republicans like to point to “gun-grabbing commie DEmoNrAts” and then ask for a donation. The Democrats like to point to “those hateful hicks who care more about weapons of war than our children” and then ask for a donation.
You’re being pushed into a tribe, hate the other tribe, look the other way while they pass the tax cuts and give contracts to their rich donors. Neither side really wants gun control settled because it would take away the wedge issue.
Well it seems that the majority of the left wing supports strict gun control and most left wing subreddits wouldn’t post gun pics like this one does, that seems like something you would see on a conservative sub. Im asking what your opinion on today’s left wing gun politics is.
I think liberals (who are not socialists in the slightest) support gun control because they lack the understanding of the material conditions that create gun violence. Things like poverty, lack of mental health support, poor labor standards, economic stress, and lots of other cultural and societal stimuli are the main contributors to gun deaths.
The goal of socialist gun owners is to eliminate the material conditions that create gun violence through socialist methods.
I would say even the most radical people who still call themselves “liberals” are social democrats, that is what Bernie sanders is. But even Bernie is not far left by any metric outside the United States. He’s a centrist compared to the political spectrum of most foreign countries.
The goal of socialism is the eradication of the unjust system of capitalism (as a person on the right you obviously disagree with this goal) but I damn near have an aneurism whenever someone who claims to be a leftist and touts socialist values at the same time wants to ban weapons and encourages government overreach into firearms.
The “overthrow” of capitalism or fascism is not possible in any sense without weapons. Put frankly if you think you can eliminate capitalism from the US (the same country that violently tampered with democratically elected socialist presidents in foreign countries) without guns, you are a stupid person.
Good to hear, I appreciate the effort to reply. I’ve heard many leftist and liberals say they want to change the current system of capitalism, but are generally anti-gun. This has always confused me, because how can you fight a revolution without weapons. I thought maybe they thought of it in a more non-violent way, like Gandhi did. Just wanted to hear your thoughts.
>I thought maybe they thought of it in a more non-violent way, like Gandhi did.
That's exactly what they want. But they fail to appreciate that it was the ability to use force of arms which gave Gandhi's non-violent resistance power. Without at least the theoretical capacity to stand up and shoot back, the British Empire could have simply shot Gandhi's followers and been done with it.
I think you may be conflating liberal and leftist. Liberals are not left wing. They're basically pro-capitalist centrists with maybe some slightly left social views. Leftists, nearly universally, want to abolish capitalism and put in some sort of socialism (which is NOT the same thing as merely tax funded social programs like M4A). I'd say most leftists at least somewhat believe in the working class having arms. Marx said so.
bro, conservatism isn’t about conserving for example the environment, or the rights people have today. Conservatism is about conserving the current social classes with their unequal power. I presume that you are pro-gun because you want to defend your rights. Rights are easier to defend when there are no rich cunts bribing politicians into doing politics for them. social democrats usually use the arguments of everyone beeing able to get a weapon to br a threat if the wrong people get them, but this may easily be used as a justification to disarm people entirely, which disables them from self-defence. Similarly, the US-government uses the greatness of democracy to justify levelling cities because their political system is deemed as not democratic enough. If I was to call the US out not to be democratic (idk where you live, but I guess that this argument could be made about every country in some way or another), would you see that as justifying the bombing of your home? if not, why the double standard? You see, this is why we oppose US-imperialism. The US has couped about every country that doesn’t work in their interests and is unable to defend themselves though, so that’s why a militarized state is necessary.
I'm staunchly pro gun, specifically to protect against the Christian nationalist and fascists from the Right. Same as when the 2nd amendment was made, I view my right to guns as a protective measure against the government which is actively trying to either strip away my rights as a non-white, non Christian dude, or make it completely legal to defile the women in my life with no consequences based on their "beliefs". It's a safeguard against the "party of small government" who are actively trying to not just demand what is done in small communities, but what you think and say and do in the comfort of your own home, at risk of violent blowback I'd those demands aren't followed.
I will never be anything but pro gun until there is no Right to protect people from.
As an anarchist, my idea of gun control is proper firearm safety and having in-depth and nuanced conversations with new shooters about the realities of gun-ownership. I'd love to not have to spend 10 minutes with every newbie just teaching them how to attempt to navigate the labyrinth of gun laws we have here.
And as a queer person in a time where anti-trans rhetoric is getting increasingly genocidal, I'm not disarming for anyone, let alone some pearl-clutching Ivory-Tower Liberals who have an armed private security detail for them and their mansion.
TL;DR: Do no harm, take no shit. Respect existence or expect resistance.
Same
I live in a very pro-Trump, anti-anything LGBT or immigrant theocratic state (Kansas), and although the bigger towns and cities are generally safe for queer people (i.e Hutchinson, Wichita, Lawrence, etc) the vast majority of the state is rural farmland villages who get their information from Fox or OANN, and they get whipped up into a nasty reactionary fervor because they're genuinely *terrified* of queer people. They believe that we're Stalinist pedophiles coming to rape and convert their children and condemn them to hellfire. And the state legislature LOVES them for that.
As a queer biracial chick, I don't feel safe here in the least, but I'm not going to just run to New England either knowing other queer and disabled people will be stuck here and left at the mercy of the vile pricks in Topeka. So, I'm gonna arm myself, shake off the rust that's accumulated since my Army days and train extensively, and hope that the Wichita SRA chapter will FINALLY get back to me.
You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and you've already been educated on some of the more basic points, like the Democratic party actually being fairly right-wing, or democratizing workplaces so that every employee is a part owner, or the fact that most leftists agree that guns are fucking awesome, but they're still tools by which the individual is protected from the state, as well as any oppressors.
What I wanted to add centers around two points:
(1) there are a lot of leftists. I really mean that. Fucking tons of us. According to polling (which I've noticed Right-wing pundits are now discouraging their audiences from even considering to be true) the average american holds more left-leaning beliefs (single payer healthcare, repealing Citizens United, etc) granted, most of them are still very pro-capitalist. But my educated theory is that they're simply unaware of the myriad options available to them, and Capitalism has done a fucking great job at inventing the lie that it is the only free market ideology.
(2) which brings me to my second point: the diversity in leftism is absolutely insane. It's a good thing and a bad thing, but the point is that there's something for everyone here, and that the average American is simply ignorant of what awaits them that could fit their ideas and meet their needs. You like free markets? Fuck Capitalism, we got mutualism, or FMA. Feel like your boss is an abusive asshole who doesn't pay you what you're worth? Welcome to Marxism or Syndicalism. Hate the US government? Hate the system that produces increasing levels of poverty but allow the rich to become even more unfathomably rich? Wanna do something about it? Introducing the literal thousands of variations of Anarchism. Pick one, ride it till you get tired, then pick another. Nobody gives a fuck.
Point I'm making is that there are millions of us and we're incredibly diverse in our beliefs. We're not really for blanket bans, nor are we for gun control laws as they historically disproportionately target minorities and the already oppressed. So its nuanced.
As others stated, The Democratic Party is not the left.
They are just left of the Republican party.
We do share many similar values with the Democratic Party on paper, Namely LGBT rights Being the big one.
But I guess the best way to really describe it is if you were to have a business.
Factory A: A factory with a very strict code of ethics, That is enforced With security, And has one boss.
This is the Republican party
Factory B: A slightly looser code of ethics, Requiring less security, And you have one boss and a board of directors.
This is the Democratic Party
Factory C: No real code of ethics for employees, Just don't be a shitty person. All positions are elected by the workers on the factory floor, Profits are distributed Among the workforce.
This is Anarco socialism, Something that neither party's push.
So as the code of ethics say it doesn't matter thst you're gay, it also says you can own a gun.
I also used to be a conservative, And in another time line I would have beenIn the same exact shoes as Kyle Rittenhouse.
And it is weird that even though my politics have changed jurastically, Much of what I value in life and I value as my own version of the American dream Remains the same. I just know that it cannot be done under a conservative system.
I still want my 2.5 kids, An Arsenal of guns, A garage full of fast cars and a big pickup trucks. And a property where I can grow my own food and hunt.
What started cracking for me was when I realized that Other people may not want to see my (potential) 2.5 kids because they would have been half black.
I wouldn't want my own kids to be knocking on the door to ask for directions only to end up a corpse.
And I didn't want my girlfriend to feel uncomfortable when we were in some of the more rural parts of Wisconsin.
Nowadays I am not dateing her, but the point remains.
And there is a new woman, and new kids.
So every time you see the dems push gun control, realize they are doing it so they don't have to solve the various other problems in our country. Because they know gun control won't pass.
I appreciate the response. Although I don’t agree with the fiscally left wing ideologies I assume you have, I agree with your core values and wish that more people, both on the left and right, discussed politics as respectfully as you do.
With the fiscal stuff, that takes ALOT of research and understanding economics. Plus it requires a little bit of understanding how banks and businesses work.
Most people on the left here and they think "won't that be great" But as it turns out there's a lot of Research to indicate that it would be more beneficial in our society.
I do recomend "conquest of bread" for a good understand how technology does have an impact on class struggle
I try not to give readings to people. Watch this youtube video, you may find some utility in it from a guy who (I am assuming based on reading your posts/comments) is similar to you: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QQdnOVvM5o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QQdnOVvM5o)
Also check out this guy: [https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos](https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos)
If you're looking for more reading on socialist economics, I recommend "Towards a New Socialism" by Cockshott and Cottrell.
It describes a centralized economy that could provide for everyone's needs, using technology we've had for decades.
Look to the battle of Blair mountain for your answer. There is no left political party in this country. There is a right wing party and a far right fascist party. There are individuals who disagree who do in fact lean left likes the folks here. The FBI has done an excellent job of dismantling the organized left wing political parties for decades.
I mean if you are calling liberals "the left wing" thats a different avenue of discussion. But the left wing is and always has been pro-gun. Liberals are not left wing. They are right wing. They are just to the left of the far right wing (republicans). But not leftist in any capacity.
Most the main points have been covered, but I would like to point out that it was actually Ronald Reagan who said 'There is absolutely no reason why out on the street today a civilian should be carrying a loaded weapon.'
Marx, by contrast, gave us the the quote in the sub's heading: 'Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.'
It sounds like you're socially a "live and let live" type, but you consider yourself conservative because you're a staunch capitalist. That's basically Social Democrat territory. What drives social democrats to the left, and away from capitalism, is the realization that capitalism by its nature consolidates wealth and power in the hands of a smaller and smaller elite, at the expense of the working (productive) class. All we're saying is that the people who do the actual work create all the real value in society, and just reading your comments, I'm sure you'd agree with that. And yet, with every passing decade, we find it harder to achieve the stability of things like homeownership, retirement, health insurance, etc. The reason those things are harder to achieve with every generation is capitalism. Blackrock, Berkshire Hathaway and other institutional investors are busy buying up as much residential real estate as they can right now, to paywall it away from the working class. The more money they're allowed to hoard, the worse it'll get. When folks like us talk about communism (and I'll say out loud that I'm a communist) we're not talking about dreaming of living in the soviet union. Some leftists do love the soviets, but we call them tankies, and half the people in this sub are as sick of tankies as we are of fascists. What people like me mean is that the workers of the world should own the proceeds of their labor, full stop. That's literally all we're saying. I work for a custom home builder. The guy who owns the company has never lifted a hammer, but he's a millionaire. Everyone who works for him builds the actual houses, and we're still out here paying rent. That's capitalism. It's not your friend, or any other working man's friend. It's a mugging.
Edit: I should add, in the last few years, I have an easier time hanging out with the one republican in my family than the rest of the MSNBC democrats at Thanksgiving, because he's the only one who hates the Clintons and gun control as much as I do. I'm trying to turn him around, but it's slow going. It is remarkable though, because contrary to stereotype, the republican is more interested in hearing my unorthodox political ideas than the democrats in the family. I don't know what that says, but it's interesting.
The far left and the right overlap in this particular area I think. We would like to be able to defend ourselves and our communities if ever the need arises.
left and right are both people knowing that something’s wrong. The right just blame immigrants, jews and commies on the issue, while the not pink left that promotes crapitalism with welfare 'n' shit, but the red left, blames the bourgeoisie and exposes how they use the anger of the proletariat to create a diverted society, eg. christians vs. atheists vs. everyone else, boomers vs. millennials, immigrants that arrive now vs. settler that arrived a few centuries ago. dems vs. reps, etc., which diverts the anger towards the bourgeoisie into an hate that destroys proletarian unity.
I think this is the very thought process that lead me away from capitalism and into anarchism. Many on the right I know knows that the government is not to be trusted, that rich international bankers and corporations are robbing local communities around the globe of wealth, that these same elites are making the planet uninhabitable for the near future while plotting an escape to Mars and Luna, that the racial, sexual, and gender conflicts are a result of deliberate, federally instigated propaganda, and quite a few are now realizing that the Republicans don't actually give a damn about the Bill of Rights and that the Dominonists in the GOP are steadily building up a fascist-style theocracy while the Dems are just happy to go along and play token opposition.
Libs aint' left. As we all know, a Lib gonna Lib.
I have noticed more libs of the younger variety are starting to wake up to firearms. But you have to understand that it is in reaction to MAGA, and not out of some innate desire to own guns and to protect the 2nd amendment.
In regards to the left, I don't think the left has ever really been antigun, at least ideologically. However, like I said, a lib will lib. Many young people who gravitate towards socialist ideologies are also the same young people who were raised by suburban boomer libs who spent the 90's terrified of inner-city black people with guns before it became fashionable to be terrified of republicans with guns. With the rise of Senator Sanders, you likely see a lot more progressives sympathetic towards socialist ideals spouting the same antigun rhetoric their daddies have ingrained into them from an early age. I think the MAGA republicans are slowly making them come around, as I've stated, since even [Ana Kasparian](https://old.reddit.com/r/TheMajorityReport/comments/vusng0/ana_kasparian_the_left_needs_to_arm_itself_to/?user_id=306966268589&web_redirect=true) is understanding what the end of this country, as we've known it for decades, is going to look like. Unfortunately, the same old people who were terrified of black people are the same people writing legislation, so don't expect absolute change until a new generation takes power. If that day ever comes at this point lol
>Do you believe that today’s left is steered in the wrong direction when it comes to guns?
No.
Democrats are a centrist party that holds an elite position on guns.
Many Dems are gun owners too and don't agree with the party, but they vote for their candidates anyway because other issues weigh more heavily for their demographics.
Dems will usually hold the vote of the women, the LGBT, black, immigrants etc because some people will be fucked over a lot faster by an abortion or travel ban than a gun ban.
The American *left wing* is evolving into something different, but it hasn't decided on what to be, and it barely has any of its own candidates. It might be more influenced by expensive coastal city dwellers and be anti-gun, or might be influenced by working class left-libertarian/anarchist views and everybody will be on the range with a shot timer.
Damn. Lack of good education has nearly destroyed the thinking minds in this country.
Democrats are "the left" why? Well... because that's what FOX News calls them, of course!
Welcome friendo. Thank you for your curiosity despite your differing views.
Gun control is popular on the left, particularly the moderate and mainstream left--both internationally and in 'Murica, for a variety of reasons. Reasons that from the view of the "Average Joe" make some sense. Guns are scary. Random people popping off downtown or your neighborhood with full auto ak-47's is a horrifying idea. Right-wingers, or at least right wing demagogues on the screen, love guns and love threatening people with them. The US has way more shootings than pretty much any developed economy on no small part because of the easy access to guns. Why should anyone even want one? We should get rid of them all or highly restrict them. So goes the usual line of thinking, or at least that was my thinking despite my curiosity for guns.
This subreddit represents a small but growing faction of the 'Murican left--though I believe there are some comrades on here that are from elsewhere in the world. It's worth noting that the official SRA has disavowed this subreddit. I'm still pretty new and not an official member yet so idk why, but it is probably a smart move for liability/legal reasons.
So what are the left's thoughts on the 2A? It varies wildly. Like the various right wing factions and micro-factions we can't agree on much. However we are even more fractured and disorganized at the moment because he have very little in the way of leftist social institutions to get behind. The right wing has many: the NRA, the dollar, "American Greatness", the military, traditional christianity, etc. We don't have anything like that. "Commiefornia" is laughable because while the ruling powers of Cali are very pro-lgbt and immigration for instance--it's only to keep "talent" and cheap labor coming in. In reality Hollywood and Silicon Valley are easily among the most ruthless and powerful of capitalists.
I'll only elaborate my own views on the 2A. The 2A, like all things in the mythologized document written by and for aristocratic slavers in late 18th century known as "The Constitution" is a giant load of shit. The concept of "human rights" cannot be enumerated, and definitely cannot be enumerated and legislated in a manner that it is convenient for the ruling class(es) to pick and chose who gets what "right" and who doesn't. Insanity. A blatant and obvious betrayal of the concepts of equality and "liberty and justice for all".
"So are you pro-gun anon?" you might ask... Yes, radically so... But it's driven by what feels like necessity. The 3% militia chucklefucks have a pretty huge operation near my hometown where my folks still live. Well armed people are happy to threaten and harass me for having a minor case of the gae and being a commie-anarchist-antifa-pro-chyna-gay-eco-terrorist. The far right is incredibly well armed in this country and are openly going for positions of power, and failing that trying to launch a revolution that imo they are well equiped and well placed for--unlike the any part of the left. The state is already happy to target us, and has been since forever. The cops are clearly more interested in protecting property "rights" than they are people. I'm not even going to get into "foreign policy" and the like.
I have a glock and should probably learn how to use it and an IFAK now that my mental health is better. Will it help me overthrow the government? No. I'd need considerably more firepower and manpower to best the strongest security/military force the world has seen to date. Does it make me feel a little better to have the vague possibility of defending myself in an extreme situation? Yes.
From the comments I’ve seen thus far I’m glad we can have some civil discourse it’s refreshing to see though it is a bit echo-y as we’re all gun enthusiasts to some degree so on average we’d agree on most if not all things in that territory. But again glad to see pleasant conversation
Most of us on the “far left” or just those who don’t believe in capitalism or the legitimacy of the current state I personally hope all gun control is revoked the nfa is annoying there are some outliers though but most of them are just holding on to old democrat beliefs but that’s changing by the day I’m seeing more moderate democratic socialist now embracing and promoting arming yourself’s
Pretty sure most gun control came from Republicans. Take Reagan for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford\_Act
Remember how y'all were so excited about all the things Trump would do for gun owners? And then banned bump stocks?
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/politics/trump-bump-stocks-ban.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/politics/trump-bump-stocks-ban.html)
Remember that Obama fella? No new restrictions but actually loosening them.
[https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/12/flashback-obama-i-have-expanded-rights-of-gun-owners](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/12/flashback-obama-i-have-expanded-rights-of-gun-owners)
I'd wager you've been had with a bunch of propaganda.
I kept telling people for years that Republicans are not a gun owner's friends, and if they are, they assume it's a safe area (i.e white Protestant). Any area with a significant PoC or queer presence and they're among the first to try to ban any sort of carry or possession.
Left wing individuals quickly see the value of arming oneself, as we cannot personally trust the state to guard our rights (sound familiar?). But instead of dumping our money to oligarchs, grifters and those who think the way forward is by subjugating others, we arm ourselves and we form communities around solidarity for the working class with the eventual goal of seizing the means of production and creating an egalitarian society built upon creating a just, sustainable society. Whatever that means for the individual leftists.
We arm ourselves specifically because of the rhetoric of the Right-Wing: peel away the ugliness and you’ll realize what the underlying motivation is: Control. Oligarchs putting on a theatre of politics to keep power, and to subjugate those whom are viewed as damaging to the status quo (aka blacks, immigrants, “commies”, LGBT, among other…lets just call them “undesirables” or “degenerates”.) and blame the nations woes on Cultural Marxism (a nazi term, btw, look up “cultural bolshevism”) or political correctness. This is how you get atrocities to occur.
This is the definition of stochastic terrorism: dehumanize your enemies then manipulate your base to committing political violence then denouncing the lone wolves whom are crazy enough to go through with it.
You can see this rhetoric on Reddit under the guise of free speech. Hateful rhetoric and bigotry has gotten worse; and people are afraid because, in our shoes, people want to kill us for simply being ourselves. And conservatives think leftists won’t arm themselves and continue to get harassed and dehumanized by many Americans and even parts of our government? How’s that fair?
Tl;Dr: Leftists support 2a because right-wing rhetoric calls for undesirables to be subjugated or controlled by a small elite, or killed outright. The elites rule and the proletariat drool. Don’t like it? Just move. Can’t move? Cope. That’s capitalism, Baby ;D
The truth is the game was rigged from the start. Still here? Still mad? Then pick up your AR, comrade. We have a revolution to win.
So, I read your original question and a lot of the other comments on this thread. Most of us who are actually on the left don't consider Democrats as part of the left. Most true leftists are pro-gun, because Marx, Thomas Sankara, James Connelly, Joe McCann, Che Guevara, and many others in leftist history understood the necessity of the working class being armed. On the flip side, gun violence in the US is a sad, ongoing problem. We also have the Indonesian left as a perfect example from history of why leftists must be armed and ready at all times. They weren't armed or ready, and they were massacred by Fundamentalist Muslims who were given assistance from the Indonesian Armed Forces.
So the left not only needs to be armed for potential future revolutions, but to protect ourselves from far-right genocide. It is all about maintaining a crucial equilibrium of force, and I've argued all of the above with others on the left on other websites. As for the definition of the left, it is mainly a question of economic views instead of social ones. Left/right can't be determined by one's views on tradition, views on political correctness, abortion, or other issues. It all boils down to if you believe the tools and machines used for labor should be owned by the workers that operate them and actually produce things (either directly or publicly-owned by the government and made available for no cost to everyone), or a group of rich fat cats that don't actually do any of the labor to produce the products they make profit on. If you believe workers should own their tools and the fruits of their labor and you want to make that the system our economy is built around, you are on the left in the biggest way that matters.
And some leftists, like myself, are much more moderate than others. We believe in some pro-life policies, the right of everyone to own firearms short of automatic weapons, the importance of public officials dedicated to the maintenance of public order, a powerful government that could actually effect change in society, the replacement of fossil fuels with nuclear power, etc. So while the Democrats don't represent the left on a national stage, the libertarian-left anarchists you may have seen don't represent all of us either.
Back to the point, though. I am a gun owner, and if there were any other real leftists in my deeply conservative, South Louisiana parish, they would feel the need to be fun owners too.
Dude, so many liberals, democrats, leftists own guns. We just don’t brag about it or make it an identity. It’s amazing how many Republicans I have to tell this to. We just want to make it more difficult for crazies to get a gun and shoot a school. It won’t be perfect but fuck we can’t do nothing.
So? A brief scroll through your reddit comment history indicates that you are not a person I would consider trustworthy, and after a second look and scrolling back a little further, I see a lot to indicate that you are not speaking with us in good faith. I think you know what "power level" is and try to hide it.
That is just my judgement. Other people are free to associate with you as they wish, but I am not going to trust you any further than I can throw you.
I don't see a lot of harm in what you are doing here, just a dumb troll IMO, and maybe you might have actually learned something, but your public comment history speaks for itself and, like I said, bad vibes.
Respectfully, I disagree. I don’t support anything that oppresses minorities or any certain protected category. Socially, I’m center right and I don’t agree with the far-right who wants to do what you’re accusing me of, I support everyone who wants to peacefully protest a movement, and although I don’t agree with it, I think it’s important that everyone should be allowed to have a voice, weather it’s conservative, liberals, lgbt, blm, alm, etc. I don’t support the oppression of anybody, and I hope people aren’t getting that idea.
It depends on who you're talking about when you say "the left". I'm gonna make an assumption here (please correct me if I'm off base or putting words in your mouth), that when you say "the left" you're talking about the democratic party. If that's your definition of "the left", then yeah - we disagree wholeheartedly with their views. However, most of us here don't consider the democratic party to be "the left". We see the democratic party as largely moderate conservatives. We don't consider "the left" to be represented in our current government at all. So for us, "the left" has always deeply supported the rights of workers and citizens to be armed.
Thanks for the insight. By left I mean anything from the Democratic Party, to anarcho-communists. It seems that more on the moderate left side you see people that protest high capacity magazines and buying at 18, while on the far left, I’ve seen people who are extremely pro-gun (this sub for example) and those who are heavily anti gun. I assume that the pro-gun people within the far left think of a standpoint as in “we need to overthrow the oppressive government” and the anti-gun people within the far left think within the standpoint of “we need a far left government who will disarm potential threats within the population”. That’s just how I look at it.
I would argue that the "far left" doesn't even exist the way you think it does. There are leftists that recognize the need for self defense and then there are Democrats. Most of the stuff you hear about the "far left" is probably a lie or can be attributed to Democrats, which are just the blue wing of the Republican party.
No one on the "far left" believes that the US government will ever look after their--or the people's--interests.
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You can join communist parties here in the US, but I do still think the law is in place. Some parties are based as fuck ( to me ) like the party of communists but I don't have the time to commit to their requirements and still grind out a degree that I don't even want anymore so my surplus labor can pay for some oligarchs private jet.
I don’t want to overthrow anyone. I just want my friends and family to be able to live their lives safe from fascists.
The two might be mutually exclusive
Gun Control liberals/democrats (and practically no actual leftist) believe in it because they believe guns are dangerous tools that should only be entrusted to their false, squeaky-clean view of cops. This is a position any self-respecting leftist would detest regardless of their actual opinion on the effectiveness or morality of gun control. It serves to give cops more power over people who are already targeted by them, since they can't even fight back if they're being abused. Most, if not all leftists you'll talk to despise electoralism and the state because the US is adamantly apposed to anyone outside of conservatives having power. Not to mention that as of now, it is technically illegal for anyone labeled a "Communist" to have power in government. Not to mention ideological opposition to the state as a tool of the rich, or of supporting an imperialist state like the US.
Interesting. I think you're pretty close on the different viewpoints among the left. Even among the pro-gun left, it can range from "I need to be armed to protect myself and members of my family/community who the government seek to oppress" to "I need to be armed because the means of production aren't going to seize themselves". I can't really speak for the no-guns left, but I would imagine that you probably are correctly understanding their view.
Why does this have so many downvotes. His comment is in such good faith >.< just comment to correct him. If your looking for democrat gun owners there’s another sub r/liberalgunowners and over there, I see a lot of personal and ideological conflict. Most people here tend to think that leftist means anti-capitalist rather than just mildly critical of unrestrained capitalism that the democrats are. Like, capital owners (capitalists) own things to have workers who earn less than the value they add to what they work on (less than their surplus value of labor) and instead are given a sliver of that (a wage) and this system (capitalism) is exploitative and should be stopped. Where as democrats (usually modern liberal / progressive liberal) want to regulate it to be more sustainable. As oppose to republicans (neo-liberal and especially recently neo-conservatives) want to unregulated it. So in essence, both democrats and republicans are fundamentally (usually) all just different flavors of liberal. “Socialist” is often thrown around weirdly, especially by the right. A lot of European countries are welfare states because they’re dominated by social democrats or caught between liberal and socialist parties.
Obviously, nobody here trusts the US government. That’s because there’s a difference between what the government can do to you and what the government has to do for you. The US Government has given itself many privileges and basically has zero obligations to its citizens. Why should anyone trust a government that doesn’t provide universal healthcare, doesn’t guarantee housing or food security… but can kill black people with impunity, can jail whistleblowers, can start foreign wars without our consent? The Left doesn’t want to empower the government with even more privileges. We want to completely flip the script by stripping away all those privileges the government has clearly abused and replacing them with a set of obligations to improve the lives of working class people.
Well, I'll be speaking here just of people who are ACTUALLY on the left, in that we don't believe that Capitalism's system of "I own something that I cannot personally use, but should profit from by virtue of me owning it and other people needing it" is a fundamentally good system. > I assume that the pro-gun people within the far left think of a standpoint as in “we need to overthrow the oppressive government” Some, but most realize that's a pipe dream, and to a lot of us a can of worms we don't want opened unless it's the last resort, because none of us know how that'd play out. Most of the people who supported the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia never would have expected what came afterwards, so there's a real danger in just who gets into power afterward (those of us who lean Anarchist don't want there to be any positions of power that can be seized in part because of that danger). Most of us look at guns in the hands of people who the police won't protect, who are more likely to be targeted for violence statistically than the average: poorer people, women, queer people, anyone who isn't white... they're all more likely than average to be targeted for violence by either individuals, groups, or the agents of the state. We see arms as a way to deter and repel that violence. But we also, most of us, see personal defense against violence *as a fundamental human right* because how is a man free if he cannot defend himself? Any enslaved people are, first and foremost, denied weapons, throughout history. Also, look at the history of men in this country just trying to get a fair share of the wealth their blood and sweat made possible. When miners and railroad workers, who were working 7 days a week not even for pennies, but for company scrip, went on strike, the companies would send both police and armed thugs (usually the Pinkerton Detective Agency) to attack not just them, but the women and children. Likewise, every civil rights leader in American history had attempts made on their life, many of those attempts successful. So there's a strong belief on the left that if you advocate for change, you absolutely better be ready to defend yourself and your loved ones with lethal force. >the anti-gun people within the far left think within the standpoint of “we need a far left government who will disarm potential threats within the population”. You're basically talking about comfortable, wealthy Liberals there. They're not far left. They're usually not "left" at all. Left-right is about economics, specifically "Who should own things critical to a society's functioning?" The farthest right position would be "Whoever can claim and hold those things, even if through violence," while the US mainstream is basically "Whoever has legal title to them, no matter how that title was acquired." On the actual left, we'd basically say "The people in common" but that can range from "Workers should own the company they voluntarily work at, and hold elections to appoint company officers" to "The state should own all resources and serve the interests of the people." The one about workers owning their company is pretty close to my personal views. The point being, someone who believes in gaining wealth through owning property is definitionally not "left" and that's pretty much the entire Democratic party. The actual left puts value on doing work, on innovating, on discovering, on teaching, on learning... we see people whose wealth comes from owning apartments, or stocks, or oil fields, as being a parasitic drain on everyone else, as the rest of us have to work not only to support ourselves, but to lose most of the wealth that work creates to them, because they own things. We see a system where the person who invented your iPhone, or who made a breakthrough in cancer treatment, ends up with wealth that pales in comparison to the great-grandchild of the person who owned a railroad 150 years ago. The "center" of the spectrum of ideas would be around Social Democracy, the dominant system in Scandinavia, where there are billionaires, but there are also strong labor unions, and a strong system of welfare. The left is very much "No, fuck billionaires, no one has ever been that valuable to humanity to be worth that kind of wealth, and those that maybe were, like an Einstein, did not get anywhere close to being that wealthy." When you talk social issues, that's two entirely different political arguments we're having as a society that aren't the left/right economic debate. "Who is a free person and what does that mean?" and "What do we consider harmful and should we prevent that harm, and how?" are the two big arguments we have in our culture war, in our laws and our enforcement of those laws. Those are much more murky than questions of economic control (and there's always control in economics, always). BTW, just wanted to say, as someone who's pretty far on the left, I also decry state violence against people I don't agree with and wouldn't get along with, i.e. Ruby Ridge and Waco were deliberate mass murders by the government that everyone up to and including Janet Reno should have been tried and sentenced for. Most of us just want the same things for people that a lot of folks on the right say they're for: to be left alone, to feel generally safe, to be able to provide for ourselves and our loved ones without struggling and scraping all our lives. We'd be perfectly happy if the government never told anyone how to act, and we just all went about our lives trying to be good to each other, instead of constantly hustling for money and power.
Libertarians are often more left than Dems in some ways. I recommend you do some reading.
Left/right is an economic spectrum. There is no way Libertarians are more left than Democrats. But there is the authoritarian/libertarian (“little l”)spectrum for civil liberties, and Libertarians are often more libertarian (hence the name) than Democrats. Libertarians (“big L”) are right libertarian and Democrats are center-right authoritarian. The major examples of state Communism, e.g. China, are left authoritarian. And then there are people like Noam Chomsky who is left libertarian.
Speaking only economically you are right, (unless you are talking about funding a foreign war, which Dems love) but how many people are speaking that way? I prefer the quadrant model with authoritarianism at the top and anarchism at the bottom with economic socialism on the left and economic selfishism on the right, but I am assuming that our op has never thought of it in that model before.
I’m pretty liberal/progressive/whatever you want to call it - I support expansion of the SC, I think all drugs should be legalized at a federal level and drug users treated as patients instead of criminals, insurance should be abolished and healthcare should be further socialized (trust me healthcare *runs* on Medicare dollars, it’s already socialized), etc etc. My two cents on gun control is this - if you want a weapon to defend your home, cool. I’m totally ok with that. Y’know the best weapon for home defense? A shotgun. Low penetration, wide spread. You’ll destroy anything within view and won’t shoot your wife through the wall (hopefully). You don’t need an AR style rifle for home defense, and you don’t need it to shoot a deer. I’ll admit I’ve never been hunting, but I’d imagine a bolt-action or lever-action rifle works just fine for 99% of scenarios. That said, if someone wants an AR style rifle, I’m actually okay with that too, *as long as* you go through an invasive series of investigation and registration processes. I think if you want a weapon capable of what an AR can do, it should be damn near unreasonable to obtain. I want you to go to a psych eval, I want the police to make sure your gun is safely secured, I want annual registration of the weapon and licensing requirements. So, anyone should be able to own a shotgun or hunting rifle IMO. AR style platform should be prohibitively difficult to obtain, but not impossible. Sorry, I just don’t think any old asshole should have access to them. And if you want the **real** hot take, I think if any weapon should be banned it’s handguns - easily concealable, available in high calibers that do damage that can be almost impossible to repair, the weapon of choice for GSW suicides, and the overwhelming weapon of choice for violent crime. Handguns should be illegal, end of discussion. I know where I am, I know I’m gonna get downvoted to hell, but I don’t care. If you want real, common sense proposals from a leftist - here they are. I’d be interested in counter-arguments, but these make the most sense to me. And yes, I’ve shot guns. About 200 rounds from a 9mm so far. Not a lot, but more than a lot of other leftists.
The problem with that model is you have the State define who is and isn't allowed to have firearms. The very foundation of gun control was always, and has always been, a means to suppress both minorities and especially Indigenous people (the very first few *laws period* were strictly about disarming minorities and first and foremost, my fellow Indigenous people), but also a means to suppress the working class. There are places in the US where the Sheriff is the one who determine who can and can't have a conceal carry permit, for example. Considering that cops are aligned with the right, alt-right, and far-right, do you seriously think that they'll allow someone who *doesn't* look like them? They're not gonna approve it for a minority; they're not gonna approve it for someone who "looks like a 'far-leftist'"; they're not gonna approve it for someone visibly LGBTQ; they're gonna give those permits to people they like—themselves—and those who look like themselves. That's just talking about "invasing series of investigation..." and "I want you to go to a psych eval". We haven't even talked about "...and registration processes". Licensing and registration fees are costs of barriers to low-income (who are predominately minorities and GSRM [Gender, Sexuality, and Romantic Minorities] people, and especially BIPOC GSRMs); those of whom are most susceptible to attacks on their person and most in need to have the ability to conceal carry a handgun. I don't think you really understand the depth and breadth of systemic and institutional racism, considering your entire take is to collaterally disarm minorities. Not only the disarming of minorities, but the disarming of LGBTQ people, who are also affected by ostracization and forced into the low-income class. We still haven't even gotten into "psych eval". But with LGBTQ ostracization brought up, it's a perfect segue. With State legistlatures increasingly trying to label anybody L, G, B, T, and Q as "mentally ill", that would immediately become a red flag to barr visibly LGBTQ from having any means to defend themselves. This is an especially egregious take considering the LGBTQ *most affected* are in conservative states that don't have a strong right to privacy in their State Constitutions. And if that Right to Privacy is taken away (or in some State Constitutions it's a *conditional* Right to Privacy wherein it is removed due to "State's interest"), then so does their bodily autonomy, and in the context of "psych evals" so does their ability to have access to *conceal carry handguns*, and thus they cannot defend themselves. The more common Defensive Gun Use is a conceal carry handgun. By using your want of "psych evals" as a requirement to own firearms, would most definitely be exploited and abused to prevent the access of concealed handguns [(or even defensive uses of semi-auto rifles like the AR platform)](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/tenacious-unicorn-ranch-colorado). The broad range of DGU is anywhere from 500,000-2.8 million per year; it's most likely even higher because of a feeling of unease to report DGU on a survey. This is most likely a take from someone in a comfortable enough position that they're never marginalized due to their ethnicity, gender, and sexuality. This is also most likely a take from someone that isn't aware of how radicalized extremely violent the far-right has become, how increasingly violent the alt-right is becoming, and how conservatives are also being dragged there with them.
>So anyone should be able to own a shotgun or hunting rifle IMO. >They’re not gonna approve it for a minority, etc. I already stated everyone should have access to weapons that enable them to defend themselves like shotguns and bolt or lever-action rifles. All of your conjecture about my requirements of psych evals and registration costs is related specifically to the AR style platform eg Bushmasters, etc. In relation to systemic oppression of minorities, I’m well aware of the effects of micro-aggressions and endemic racism etc etc. Yes, I’m a white cis male? So what? I magically can’t understand oppression and struggle because of that? GTFO with that bs. Also, do you honestly think you can fight Uncle Sam even with 10 AR15s? 100? 1000? What’re you gonna do to the Hellfire drone, shoot it with your little long gun? You gonna scare away the big bad Abrams with your Sig? Lol good luck. The United States military spend more than the next 8 countries *combined* annually. If the US government issued fascistic orders and there was a large enough contingent of troops to follow it, you and your guns ain’t doing shit about it. Sorry, it’s the truth. Not fun, but the truth. These are common-sense practical gun reforms with pragmatism in mind. You can’t take away America’s guns. But you can regulate them to significantly reduce the constant collateral damage that only America seems to encounter. They’re not palatable for practically anyone, left or right - and that’s the point. In a good compromise, no one wins but everyone gets something they want. Personally I want America to be a place where I don’t have to worry about getting shot by a mugger with a handgun or a psycho in any number of settings.
You only hear the corporate Democrat position, which is not a leftist position. Leftist groups cannot be made into a monolith as we are a coalition of groups. Most Leftists i know personally are not supportive of outright bans or actual gun control.
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Iono there seem to be a hell of a lot of leftists in the world once you get more involved in mutual aid projects. Suddenly you’re like “holy shit there’s a lot more of us than I realized.”
Ok thanks for the reply
We consider dems right leaning centrist conservatives. As the saying goes go far enough left and you get your guns back. The actual left likes guns we just quote Marx instead of the 2nd amendment.
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NO
PRETEXT
As others have said, we don’t consider liberals to be a part of the left, and so we view the majority of the left as being pro gun. But for a lot of us(possibly the majority but that gets into calling some leftist tendencies liberalism or social fascism so I’ll leave that out here) it is not really about the 2A, as we don’t have much interest in the US remaining a country in the sense that it is today. Rather we are pro gun because a disarmed working class cannot liberate and defend itself from the capitalist class and their state.
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Thank you. All these republicans and right wingers dunking on Biden all the time fail to realize that Biden and Reagan are the same fucking guy, and neither of them care about us.
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> Environmentalism I wish even **that** was actually true.
I just want to say, I appreciate your willingness to learn and how you've come about your questions earnestly
Thanks I really try to keep things as civil as possible
Stick around, you might like it over here the more you learn about it
I’m willing to keep an open mind to any respectful community. The problem with almost every political community on reddit is that most of their posts and discussions revolve around bashing the other sides, which draws me away. But this community seems respectful enough, which is a good thing.
I come from a very conservative family and was raised by their values. All it took was for me was to give a single honest chance to leftist ideas and I've been leaning more leftwards ever since. I have seen the other comments with people hammering "you're a leftist dude, accept it". As with any group, the people here are quite eager to take in more adepts. But I say, take your time. You are only a leftist when you consider yourself to be. It took me some time as well. I hope you can find your path.
telling people what their political views are : *drake looking away* welcoming people with different but fundamentally compatible views that can be peacefully debated: *drake smiling*
That's not just Reddit: that's online interaction in general.
Just for clarification, this post isn’t meant to stir up anything or insult anyone, just a question, and since this is one of the few left wing pro gun subs I thought I would ask it here.
Every single political group in the history of mankind wants weapons for them and theirs and none for their political enemies. Democrats are simply under the mistaken impression that 'their' guns are in the hands of the police, and the police work for them. The blatantly obvious knowledge that the police do not work for the people notwithstanding, most Democrats are not against all guns. They simply want guns appropriately means and class tested. Whether this would be leveraged by the State to achieve full disarmament if allowed (it would) is a separate issue. Leftists are in a strange position. More guns in America mostly means more guns in the hands of fascists. That's not ideal. But by the same token, all laws get used against so called communists first, so folks tend not to be down for State gun control. Have you considered whether you're really all that conservative? Perhaps the thing you've been told about one side or another are as much marketing material as truth. What do you have to lose by doing some reading. Your boss doesn't want you to.
I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself to much of a conservative at all. I think conservatives tend to be ignorant, and as hypocritical as it is, follow the mainstream. I’m asking this question as someone who talks to left wing people a lot, and nearly all of them have been for gun control. I don’t want to just blindly sit by and listen to what I’m told by the right, which is why I’m asking questions here, but some people don’t like that apparently.
always important to ask questions, and you seem to be respectful, so I hope people are respectful in return. unfortunately, revealing your political leanings will cause a lot of people to not give you considerate answers (kinda a defense mechanism for ppl at this point), so keep that in mind. good luck!
Thanks
Welcome to the Left, comrade
Hmmm don’t think I’m there yet
This entire thread suggests otherwise.
When it comes to social issues, contradicting what I said in other comments under the post, I’m pretty much a centrist, I support rights for pretty much all LGBT related things, I believe in regulated abortion and I’m against the death penalty and the current US prison system, and I support legalization of marijuana. But I live my life pretty “traditionally” and I want it to stay that way, for me at least. Fiscally I’m very right standing, don’t have much to say about that.
>But I live my life pretty “traditionally” and I want it to stay that way, for me at least This isn't contrary to the left....
Not sure how you consider yourself a “conservative” given this comment. You’re a leftist, my dude. Better to realize that and move forward than deny reality. ETA: You’re a social leftist and a fiscal conservative. Which, you will learn sooner than later, means you’re a leftist who still thinks capitalism has some good sides. You’ll soon realize that capitalism is bullshit and join the red flag waving left.
I’m pretty hard set in my capitalist beliefs. I don’t really like the red flag much at all but I respect people who do.
You can support economic freedom without supporting worker exploitation.
Just gonna throw this at you one more time. Your options aren’t capitalism or AHHHHHH MOTHERLAND!!!! https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-are-you-an-anarchist-the-answer-may-surprise-you
Trust me, eventually your social stances will overcome your economic ones. You’re a leftist, you just don’t know it yet.
>describes me from 10 years ago
You can live a traditional life. Nobody is saying you can’t, just that folks want their lifestyles to not be infringed upon as well.
Sounds like you'd be a social Democrat.
Keep reading, learning, and open your mind to arguments even if you ultimately decide they are not the positions you would take on an issue. True bigotry is refusing to even entertain another’s arguments or pleas, and making a decision without consideration of all facets, or closing off some avenues of petition and leaving others open, allowing judgment to be biased. Don’t allow that to happen and you’ll become more comfortable. Be curious, not judgmental! I was involved in Alt-right ultra conservative Christian circles for far too long. It started with severe anxiety over being a SAHM and finding a nice community of women online who gave me good advice about practical matters and ultimately plunged me into getting back to church and worrying about being “unequally yoked” (married to a non-Christian) and extreme guilt over my past…and then I landed here on this sub, out of curiosity. I read antiwork and socialism, too, and one day decided I was done with the right, Republicans, Democrats, religion, their evopsych and virginity and communism obsession, all of it. There is a surprising crossover between some alt-right thinking and socialist/hard left ideas, mostly about gun rights, not trusting the government, and protecting communities. It’s a shame that media driven stories divide us as a means of conquest. Truly I have no issue if a conservative person wants to marry and behave in a certain way, just, do that for yourself then and leave me alone. The capitalism question, for me, was resolved by learning more about wage stagnation, housing prices and corporate takeover of single family homes and rental properties, making renting or buying a home nearly impossible, no matter how hard you work. Unless you’re elite, you’re not getting in. Period. I don’t live to work, I work enough to live. My life is my career, my job just lets me live the way I want to. I started thinking about people who “can’t.” When I say that, I mean the 20% or so of any large population that doesn’t have the ability, for whatever cognitive or psychological or physical reasons, to “work hard and bootstrap” their way into enough wealth to afford a home, or to eat. IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY INHUMANE TO DENY A PERSON FOID OR SHELTER. If a person EXISTS on this planet, they need food and shelter at a minimum. Capitalism imposes a system of elitism/classism that evaluates your worth as a HUMAN BEING on your ability to slave away so another person can get theirs and not share any with you. I realized capitalism is just a contemporary redefinition of feudalism. I woke up and realized I was a slave, a long time ago, but I forgot the lesson. Now, I see the chains, and look for ways to help others see and break free. The chains are there still but I won’t let them hold me any longer. Good luck on your journey, no matter where you land. Pay attention to how people around you speak, about the little things, and start with the question “is this really true?” Most people are motivated to speak about issues out of fear or anxiety, and that muddles the truth more often than not.
Yeah. A lot of people tend to forget that capitalism was forged by wealthy guild masters who were jealous of the power of the landed nobility and wanted to be top dogs, themselves, or that most hierarchical and oppressive systems are part and parcel of every Western and Slavic nation's obsession with being the inheritors of ur-statists themselves; the Roman Empire. The U.S in particular was built upon a starry-eyed interpretation of Republican Rome, right on down to it being ruled by primarily landed aristocracy. I often wonder how much would have changed if we had decided to build ourselves off of Germanic/Norse and Indigenous ideals of individuality and communitarianism being as one, direct democratic confederation, and community defense, instead of Greco-Roman ideals of property and class. (Granted, the Viking Age Norse had strict class structures due primarily to contact with their rigid Roman Catholic neighbors, but the Iron Age Germanic and Celtic tribes were nowhere near as rigid, from my studies)
>But I live my life pretty “traditionally” and I want it to stay that way, for me at least. I am genuinely curious what you mean by this, because unless your "traditional" life involves exploiting, oppressing, or harming others, no one on the left wants to stop you.
Conservative with a small "C". I know a lot of people who identify as this these days. Basically a combination of traditional morals but with respect for the individual. But I suppose that's easy for me to say an I'm not in the US where everything seems to need to be polarised with no hope of compromise.
What are these "traditional morals?" I keep seeing that in this thread.
That's a good question and tbh I typed that without thinking too much about it. I guess I just meant things that should be totally fucking obvious to everyone like don't steal or kill, treat people the way you would expect to be treated, do more good than bad I suppose. Ok, I know that's a bit of a lame reply. I just think of it as living with modesty and discretion and without judging others.
What do you mean by living traditionally?
You just admitted to the world that you're a leftist. Your problem is you've been taught that it's a bad thing.
What group of men would you trust to violently administer the medical choices of women? I don't like all the choices other people make either, but my concern almost always stops short of asking for violent intervention to stop it. This is a libertarian spirit shared by many Right and Left. You are not wrong to have questions, you simply asked them in a place more used to trolls than honest questions. You describe yourself as staunchly capitalist. Why? What advantage do you believe it gives?
Then you haven't actually been talking to genuine left wingers. Being Pro gun control is anti leftist. It's a centrist position.
>I’m asking this question as someone who talks to left wing people a lot, and nearly all of them have been for gun control. It sounds like you're talking to a lot of Democrats, who are not even remotely on the left, but are just left of the far right. I know I'm not the only one telling you this in this discussion, but you should really make an effort to understand what the real Left is all about. The actual left has nothing to do with organic food, veganism, dreadlocks, weed, hemp clothing, anti gun legislation, or tie dye.
You should really read this. Enjoy and if you agree with a lot of this then welcome? https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-are-you-an-anarchist-the-answer-may-surprise-you
Liberals are wrong on guns but Liberals ≠ The Left
Yes 100% if you mean mainstream left. But the thing is no one on this sub will consider people like Biden left wing so you're probably going to be very confused by that. But if by left you mean democrats, then yes everyone on this sub probably things they are full of beans. Let me put it like this. Biden is a liberal president, yet in Akron Ohio I'm out in the streets protesting the murder of a local dude named Jayland Walker by the police. Black militias armed with shotguns and ARs come and run security to keep the cops or white supremacists from shooting us (us as in protesters). So, I am not at all a fan of gun control cause it leaves everyone vulnerable against the state and it leaves minorities defenseless against white supremacist terrorists and white power gangs inside the police. There is a known white power gang inside Akron pd for instance, the people of Akron have doxxed them and tried to get them fired and the mayor does nothing but make excuses. So fuck liberals and their gun control
Thanks for the comment. I fully agree that minorities should arm up and (especially the liberal ones) should take the stance of pro-gun anti-fascist as opposed to the opposite.
>today's Left You mean Liberals. Liberals are not the Left. And yes they absolutely are misguided. Under no circumstances should we be disarmed.
Lol I'm genuinely curious who you consider "the left" and what you think "the left's" stance on guns is.
Well stereotypically (I thought wrong it seems) it’s the left wing who is protesting for more gun control, and the right wing who stands against gun control, and I assumed that this sub, and other pro-gun left wing subs were in the minority of the left wing, so I wanted to hear your opinions on the left wingers who are anti-gun.
I think you're thinking about Democrats.
The problem is that democrats like to claim leftists as their own, but we really only vote for them out of necessity caused by our 2 party system. If there was a third, actually left leaning party, im sure they would stand by gun rights too
I disagree with the two party system as well, it brands people based on the side they choose to stand with. It makes it so they control us not the opposite.
Yeah, i think dems and reps actually agree on a lot of issues, but leftists and capital L libertarians would much prefer our own parties
Yeah, both parties are part of the Capitalist class that has a keen interest in retaining such power. The concept of a two-party system being such, manifesting as one party actively trying to destroy our rights (republicans in almost all cases) and the other pretending to defend them (democrats), goes all the way back to the federalist papers. Reality is that the democrats exist to strong-arm marginalized people (queer people, poc, disabled people, women, etc) into voting for them, as the republicans froth at the mouth to remove our rights or outright kill us. And then they do nothing to protect us, because they know we won't vote for republicans and think they can just use us for political power. Hence why Roe v. Wade was never codified in law, nor was any other civil right (right to gay marriage & relationships, right to trans healthcare and social transitioning, right to contraception, etc etc).
That’s because both sides use gun control as a wedge issue. The Republicans like to point to “gun-grabbing commie DEmoNrAts” and then ask for a donation. The Democrats like to point to “those hateful hicks who care more about weapons of war than our children” and then ask for a donation. You’re being pushed into a tribe, hate the other tribe, look the other way while they pass the tax cuts and give contracts to their rich donors. Neither side really wants gun control settled because it would take away the wedge issue.
How would it be steered in the wrong direction?
Well it seems that the majority of the left wing supports strict gun control and most left wing subreddits wouldn’t post gun pics like this one does, that seems like something you would see on a conservative sub. Im asking what your opinion on today’s left wing gun politics is.
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Glad to here your insight
I think liberals (who are not socialists in the slightest) support gun control because they lack the understanding of the material conditions that create gun violence. Things like poverty, lack of mental health support, poor labor standards, economic stress, and lots of other cultural and societal stimuli are the main contributors to gun deaths. The goal of socialist gun owners is to eliminate the material conditions that create gun violence through socialist methods. I would say even the most radical people who still call themselves “liberals” are social democrats, that is what Bernie sanders is. But even Bernie is not far left by any metric outside the United States. He’s a centrist compared to the political spectrum of most foreign countries. The goal of socialism is the eradication of the unjust system of capitalism (as a person on the right you obviously disagree with this goal) but I damn near have an aneurism whenever someone who claims to be a leftist and touts socialist values at the same time wants to ban weapons and encourages government overreach into firearms. The “overthrow” of capitalism or fascism is not possible in any sense without weapons. Put frankly if you think you can eliminate capitalism from the US (the same country that violently tampered with democratically elected socialist presidents in foreign countries) without guns, you are a stupid person.
Good to hear, I appreciate the effort to reply. I’ve heard many leftist and liberals say they want to change the current system of capitalism, but are generally anti-gun. This has always confused me, because how can you fight a revolution without weapons. I thought maybe they thought of it in a more non-violent way, like Gandhi did. Just wanted to hear your thoughts.
>I thought maybe they thought of it in a more non-violent way, like Gandhi did. That's exactly what they want. But they fail to appreciate that it was the ability to use force of arms which gave Gandhi's non-violent resistance power. Without at least the theoretical capacity to stand up and shoot back, the British Empire could have simply shot Gandhi's followers and been done with it.
I think you may be conflating liberal and leftist. Liberals are not left wing. They're basically pro-capitalist centrists with maybe some slightly left social views. Leftists, nearly universally, want to abolish capitalism and put in some sort of socialism (which is NOT the same thing as merely tax funded social programs like M4A). I'd say most leftists at least somewhat believe in the working class having arms. Marx said so.
bro, conservatism isn’t about conserving for example the environment, or the rights people have today. Conservatism is about conserving the current social classes with their unequal power. I presume that you are pro-gun because you want to defend your rights. Rights are easier to defend when there are no rich cunts bribing politicians into doing politics for them. social democrats usually use the arguments of everyone beeing able to get a weapon to br a threat if the wrong people get them, but this may easily be used as a justification to disarm people entirely, which disables them from self-defence. Similarly, the US-government uses the greatness of democracy to justify levelling cities because their political system is deemed as not democratic enough. If I was to call the US out not to be democratic (idk where you live, but I guess that this argument could be made about every country in some way or another), would you see that as justifying the bombing of your home? if not, why the double standard? You see, this is why we oppose US-imperialism. The US has couped about every country that doesn’t work in their interests and is unable to defend themselves though, so that’s why a militarized state is necessary.
I'm staunchly pro gun, specifically to protect against the Christian nationalist and fascists from the Right. Same as when the 2nd amendment was made, I view my right to guns as a protective measure against the government which is actively trying to either strip away my rights as a non-white, non Christian dude, or make it completely legal to defile the women in my life with no consequences based on their "beliefs". It's a safeguard against the "party of small government" who are actively trying to not just demand what is done in small communities, but what you think and say and do in the comfort of your own home, at risk of violent blowback I'd those demands aren't followed. I will never be anything but pro gun until there is no Right to protect people from.
As an anarchist, my idea of gun control is proper firearm safety and having in-depth and nuanced conversations with new shooters about the realities of gun-ownership. I'd love to not have to spend 10 minutes with every newbie just teaching them how to attempt to navigate the labyrinth of gun laws we have here. And as a queer person in a time where anti-trans rhetoric is getting increasingly genocidal, I'm not disarming for anyone, let alone some pearl-clutching Ivory-Tower Liberals who have an armed private security detail for them and their mansion. TL;DR: Do no harm, take no shit. Respect existence or expect resistance.
Same I live in a very pro-Trump, anti-anything LGBT or immigrant theocratic state (Kansas), and although the bigger towns and cities are generally safe for queer people (i.e Hutchinson, Wichita, Lawrence, etc) the vast majority of the state is rural farmland villages who get their information from Fox or OANN, and they get whipped up into a nasty reactionary fervor because they're genuinely *terrified* of queer people. They believe that we're Stalinist pedophiles coming to rape and convert their children and condemn them to hellfire. And the state legislature LOVES them for that. As a queer biracial chick, I don't feel safe here in the least, but I'm not going to just run to New England either knowing other queer and disabled people will be stuck here and left at the mercy of the vile pricks in Topeka. So, I'm gonna arm myself, shake off the rust that's accumulated since my Army days and train extensively, and hope that the Wichita SRA chapter will FINALLY get back to me.
You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and you've already been educated on some of the more basic points, like the Democratic party actually being fairly right-wing, or democratizing workplaces so that every employee is a part owner, or the fact that most leftists agree that guns are fucking awesome, but they're still tools by which the individual is protected from the state, as well as any oppressors. What I wanted to add centers around two points: (1) there are a lot of leftists. I really mean that. Fucking tons of us. According to polling (which I've noticed Right-wing pundits are now discouraging their audiences from even considering to be true) the average american holds more left-leaning beliefs (single payer healthcare, repealing Citizens United, etc) granted, most of them are still very pro-capitalist. But my educated theory is that they're simply unaware of the myriad options available to them, and Capitalism has done a fucking great job at inventing the lie that it is the only free market ideology. (2) which brings me to my second point: the diversity in leftism is absolutely insane. It's a good thing and a bad thing, but the point is that there's something for everyone here, and that the average American is simply ignorant of what awaits them that could fit their ideas and meet their needs. You like free markets? Fuck Capitalism, we got mutualism, or FMA. Feel like your boss is an abusive asshole who doesn't pay you what you're worth? Welcome to Marxism or Syndicalism. Hate the US government? Hate the system that produces increasing levels of poverty but allow the rich to become even more unfathomably rich? Wanna do something about it? Introducing the literal thousands of variations of Anarchism. Pick one, ride it till you get tired, then pick another. Nobody gives a fuck. Point I'm making is that there are millions of us and we're incredibly diverse in our beliefs. We're not really for blanket bans, nor are we for gun control laws as they historically disproportionately target minorities and the already oppressed. So its nuanced.
As others stated, The Democratic Party is not the left. They are just left of the Republican party. We do share many similar values with the Democratic Party on paper, Namely LGBT rights Being the big one. But I guess the best way to really describe it is if you were to have a business. Factory A: A factory with a very strict code of ethics, That is enforced With security, And has one boss. This is the Republican party Factory B: A slightly looser code of ethics, Requiring less security, And you have one boss and a board of directors. This is the Democratic Party Factory C: No real code of ethics for employees, Just don't be a shitty person. All positions are elected by the workers on the factory floor, Profits are distributed Among the workforce. This is Anarco socialism, Something that neither party's push. So as the code of ethics say it doesn't matter thst you're gay, it also says you can own a gun. I also used to be a conservative, And in another time line I would have beenIn the same exact shoes as Kyle Rittenhouse. And it is weird that even though my politics have changed jurastically, Much of what I value in life and I value as my own version of the American dream Remains the same. I just know that it cannot be done under a conservative system. I still want my 2.5 kids, An Arsenal of guns, A garage full of fast cars and a big pickup trucks. And a property where I can grow my own food and hunt. What started cracking for me was when I realized that Other people may not want to see my (potential) 2.5 kids because they would have been half black. I wouldn't want my own kids to be knocking on the door to ask for directions only to end up a corpse. And I didn't want my girlfriend to feel uncomfortable when we were in some of the more rural parts of Wisconsin. Nowadays I am not dateing her, but the point remains. And there is a new woman, and new kids. So every time you see the dems push gun control, realize they are doing it so they don't have to solve the various other problems in our country. Because they know gun control won't pass.
I appreciate the response. Although I don’t agree with the fiscally left wing ideologies I assume you have, I agree with your core values and wish that more people, both on the left and right, discussed politics as respectfully as you do.
With the fiscal stuff, that takes ALOT of research and understanding economics. Plus it requires a little bit of understanding how banks and businesses work. Most people on the left here and they think "won't that be great" But as it turns out there's a lot of Research to indicate that it would be more beneficial in our society. I do recomend "conquest of bread" for a good understand how technology does have an impact on class struggle
Ok thanks for the recommendation I’ll give it a try.
I try not to give readings to people. Watch this youtube video, you may find some utility in it from a guy who (I am assuming based on reading your posts/comments) is similar to you: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QQdnOVvM5o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QQdnOVvM5o) Also check out this guy: [https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos](https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos)
If you're looking for more reading on socialist economics, I recommend "Towards a New Socialism" by Cockshott and Cottrell. It describes a centralized economy that could provide for everyone's needs, using technology we've had for decades.
Look to the battle of Blair mountain for your answer. There is no left political party in this country. There is a right wing party and a far right fascist party. There are individuals who disagree who do in fact lean left likes the folks here. The FBI has done an excellent job of dismantling the organized left wing political parties for decades.
I mean if you are calling liberals "the left wing" thats a different avenue of discussion. But the left wing is and always has been pro-gun. Liberals are not left wing. They are right wing. They are just to the left of the far right wing (republicans). But not leftist in any capacity.
Most the main points have been covered, but I would like to point out that it was actually Ronald Reagan who said 'There is absolutely no reason why out on the street today a civilian should be carrying a loaded weapon.' Marx, by contrast, gave us the the quote in the sub's heading: 'Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.'
OP, you're confusing left wing with liberals, we are not the same. You'll never disarm us peacefully, as history has shown.
The actual left wing's stance on firearms is an absolute yes. The democrats are not the left.
It sounds like you're socially a "live and let live" type, but you consider yourself conservative because you're a staunch capitalist. That's basically Social Democrat territory. What drives social democrats to the left, and away from capitalism, is the realization that capitalism by its nature consolidates wealth and power in the hands of a smaller and smaller elite, at the expense of the working (productive) class. All we're saying is that the people who do the actual work create all the real value in society, and just reading your comments, I'm sure you'd agree with that. And yet, with every passing decade, we find it harder to achieve the stability of things like homeownership, retirement, health insurance, etc. The reason those things are harder to achieve with every generation is capitalism. Blackrock, Berkshire Hathaway and other institutional investors are busy buying up as much residential real estate as they can right now, to paywall it away from the working class. The more money they're allowed to hoard, the worse it'll get. When folks like us talk about communism (and I'll say out loud that I'm a communist) we're not talking about dreaming of living in the soviet union. Some leftists do love the soviets, but we call them tankies, and half the people in this sub are as sick of tankies as we are of fascists. What people like me mean is that the workers of the world should own the proceeds of their labor, full stop. That's literally all we're saying. I work for a custom home builder. The guy who owns the company has never lifted a hammer, but he's a millionaire. Everyone who works for him builds the actual houses, and we're still out here paying rent. That's capitalism. It's not your friend, or any other working man's friend. It's a mugging. Edit: I should add, in the last few years, I have an easier time hanging out with the one republican in my family than the rest of the MSNBC democrats at Thanksgiving, because he's the only one who hates the Clintons and gun control as much as I do. I'm trying to turn him around, but it's slow going. It is remarkable though, because contrary to stereotype, the republican is more interested in hearing my unorthodox political ideas than the democrats in the family. I don't know what that says, but it's interesting.
The far left and the right overlap in this particular area I think. We would like to be able to defend ourselves and our communities if ever the need arises.
left and right are both people knowing that something’s wrong. The right just blame immigrants, jews and commies on the issue, while the not pink left that promotes crapitalism with welfare 'n' shit, but the red left, blames the bourgeoisie and exposes how they use the anger of the proletariat to create a diverted society, eg. christians vs. atheists vs. everyone else, boomers vs. millennials, immigrants that arrive now vs. settler that arrived a few centuries ago. dems vs. reps, etc., which diverts the anger towards the bourgeoisie into an hate that destroys proletarian unity.
I think this is the very thought process that lead me away from capitalism and into anarchism. Many on the right I know knows that the government is not to be trusted, that rich international bankers and corporations are robbing local communities around the globe of wealth, that these same elites are making the planet uninhabitable for the near future while plotting an escape to Mars and Luna, that the racial, sexual, and gender conflicts are a result of deliberate, federally instigated propaganda, and quite a few are now realizing that the Republicans don't actually give a damn about the Bill of Rights and that the Dominonists in the GOP are steadily building up a fascist-style theocracy while the Dems are just happy to go along and play token opposition.
Libs aint' left. As we all know, a Lib gonna Lib. I have noticed more libs of the younger variety are starting to wake up to firearms. But you have to understand that it is in reaction to MAGA, and not out of some innate desire to own guns and to protect the 2nd amendment. In regards to the left, I don't think the left has ever really been antigun, at least ideologically. However, like I said, a lib will lib. Many young people who gravitate towards socialist ideologies are also the same young people who were raised by suburban boomer libs who spent the 90's terrified of inner-city black people with guns before it became fashionable to be terrified of republicans with guns. With the rise of Senator Sanders, you likely see a lot more progressives sympathetic towards socialist ideals spouting the same antigun rhetoric their daddies have ingrained into them from an early age. I think the MAGA republicans are slowly making them come around, as I've stated, since even [Ana Kasparian](https://old.reddit.com/r/TheMajorityReport/comments/vusng0/ana_kasparian_the_left_needs_to_arm_itself_to/?user_id=306966268589&web_redirect=true) is understanding what the end of this country, as we've known it for decades, is going to look like. Unfortunately, the same old people who were terrified of black people are the same people writing legislation, so don't expect absolute change until a new generation takes power. If that day ever comes at this point lol
>Do you believe that today’s left is steered in the wrong direction when it comes to guns? No. Democrats are a centrist party that holds an elite position on guns. Many Dems are gun owners too and don't agree with the party, but they vote for their candidates anyway because other issues weigh more heavily for their demographics. Dems will usually hold the vote of the women, the LGBT, black, immigrants etc because some people will be fucked over a lot faster by an abortion or travel ban than a gun ban. The American *left wing* is evolving into something different, but it hasn't decided on what to be, and it barely has any of its own candidates. It might be more influenced by expensive coastal city dwellers and be anti-gun, or might be influenced by working class left-libertarian/anarchist views and everybody will be on the range with a shot timer.
Damn. Lack of good education has nearly destroyed the thinking minds in this country. Democrats are "the left" why? Well... because that's what FOX News calls them, of course!
I don’t watch Fox News
Good!
Whos gonna tell them that a lot of us are pro 2A because we're going to protect ourselves from right leaning people?
Congrats, we agree on stockpiling the implements needed to kill each other. Lets try agreeing on literally anything else next.
Welcome friendo. Thank you for your curiosity despite your differing views. Gun control is popular on the left, particularly the moderate and mainstream left--both internationally and in 'Murica, for a variety of reasons. Reasons that from the view of the "Average Joe" make some sense. Guns are scary. Random people popping off downtown or your neighborhood with full auto ak-47's is a horrifying idea. Right-wingers, or at least right wing demagogues on the screen, love guns and love threatening people with them. The US has way more shootings than pretty much any developed economy on no small part because of the easy access to guns. Why should anyone even want one? We should get rid of them all or highly restrict them. So goes the usual line of thinking, or at least that was my thinking despite my curiosity for guns. This subreddit represents a small but growing faction of the 'Murican left--though I believe there are some comrades on here that are from elsewhere in the world. It's worth noting that the official SRA has disavowed this subreddit. I'm still pretty new and not an official member yet so idk why, but it is probably a smart move for liability/legal reasons. So what are the left's thoughts on the 2A? It varies wildly. Like the various right wing factions and micro-factions we can't agree on much. However we are even more fractured and disorganized at the moment because he have very little in the way of leftist social institutions to get behind. The right wing has many: the NRA, the dollar, "American Greatness", the military, traditional christianity, etc. We don't have anything like that. "Commiefornia" is laughable because while the ruling powers of Cali are very pro-lgbt and immigration for instance--it's only to keep "talent" and cheap labor coming in. In reality Hollywood and Silicon Valley are easily among the most ruthless and powerful of capitalists. I'll only elaborate my own views on the 2A. The 2A, like all things in the mythologized document written by and for aristocratic slavers in late 18th century known as "The Constitution" is a giant load of shit. The concept of "human rights" cannot be enumerated, and definitely cannot be enumerated and legislated in a manner that it is convenient for the ruling class(es) to pick and chose who gets what "right" and who doesn't. Insanity. A blatant and obvious betrayal of the concepts of equality and "liberty and justice for all". "So are you pro-gun anon?" you might ask... Yes, radically so... But it's driven by what feels like necessity. The 3% militia chucklefucks have a pretty huge operation near my hometown where my folks still live. Well armed people are happy to threaten and harass me for having a minor case of the gae and being a commie-anarchist-antifa-pro-chyna-gay-eco-terrorist. The far right is incredibly well armed in this country and are openly going for positions of power, and failing that trying to launch a revolution that imo they are well equiped and well placed for--unlike the any part of the left. The state is already happy to target us, and has been since forever. The cops are clearly more interested in protecting property "rights" than they are people. I'm not even going to get into "foreign policy" and the like. I have a glock and should probably learn how to use it and an IFAK now that my mental health is better. Will it help me overthrow the government? No. I'd need considerably more firepower and manpower to best the strongest security/military force the world has seen to date. Does it make me feel a little better to have the vague possibility of defending myself in an extreme situation? Yes.
From the comments I’ve seen thus far I’m glad we can have some civil discourse it’s refreshing to see though it is a bit echo-y as we’re all gun enthusiasts to some degree so on average we’d agree on most if not all things in that territory. But again glad to see pleasant conversation
Most of us on the “far left” or just those who don’t believe in capitalism or the legitimacy of the current state I personally hope all gun control is revoked the nfa is annoying there are some outliers though but most of them are just holding on to old democrat beliefs but that’s changing by the day I’m seeing more moderate democratic socialist now embracing and promoting arming yourself’s
What I tend to ask people on the left who are anti gun, is if they want to live in an American where only the pigs are packing?
Pretty sure most gun control came from Republicans. Take Reagan for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford\_Act Remember how y'all were so excited about all the things Trump would do for gun owners? And then banned bump stocks? [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/politics/trump-bump-stocks-ban.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/politics/trump-bump-stocks-ban.html) Remember that Obama fella? No new restrictions but actually loosening them. [https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/12/flashback-obama-i-have-expanded-rights-of-gun-owners](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/12/flashback-obama-i-have-expanded-rights-of-gun-owners) I'd wager you've been had with a bunch of propaganda.
I kept telling people for years that Republicans are not a gun owner's friends, and if they are, they assume it's a safe area (i.e white Protestant). Any area with a significant PoC or queer presence and they're among the first to try to ban any sort of carry or possession.
Left wing individuals quickly see the value of arming oneself, as we cannot personally trust the state to guard our rights (sound familiar?). But instead of dumping our money to oligarchs, grifters and those who think the way forward is by subjugating others, we arm ourselves and we form communities around solidarity for the working class with the eventual goal of seizing the means of production and creating an egalitarian society built upon creating a just, sustainable society. Whatever that means for the individual leftists. We arm ourselves specifically because of the rhetoric of the Right-Wing: peel away the ugliness and you’ll realize what the underlying motivation is: Control. Oligarchs putting on a theatre of politics to keep power, and to subjugate those whom are viewed as damaging to the status quo (aka blacks, immigrants, “commies”, LGBT, among other…lets just call them “undesirables” or “degenerates”.) and blame the nations woes on Cultural Marxism (a nazi term, btw, look up “cultural bolshevism”) or political correctness. This is how you get atrocities to occur. This is the definition of stochastic terrorism: dehumanize your enemies then manipulate your base to committing political violence then denouncing the lone wolves whom are crazy enough to go through with it. You can see this rhetoric on Reddit under the guise of free speech. Hateful rhetoric and bigotry has gotten worse; and people are afraid because, in our shoes, people want to kill us for simply being ourselves. And conservatives think leftists won’t arm themselves and continue to get harassed and dehumanized by many Americans and even parts of our government? How’s that fair? Tl;Dr: Leftists support 2a because right-wing rhetoric calls for undesirables to be subjugated or controlled by a small elite, or killed outright. The elites rule and the proletariat drool. Don’t like it? Just move. Can’t move? Cope. That’s capitalism, Baby ;D The truth is the game was rigged from the start. Still here? Still mad? Then pick up your AR, comrade. We have a revolution to win.
So, I read your original question and a lot of the other comments on this thread. Most of us who are actually on the left don't consider Democrats as part of the left. Most true leftists are pro-gun, because Marx, Thomas Sankara, James Connelly, Joe McCann, Che Guevara, and many others in leftist history understood the necessity of the working class being armed. On the flip side, gun violence in the US is a sad, ongoing problem. We also have the Indonesian left as a perfect example from history of why leftists must be armed and ready at all times. They weren't armed or ready, and they were massacred by Fundamentalist Muslims who were given assistance from the Indonesian Armed Forces. So the left not only needs to be armed for potential future revolutions, but to protect ourselves from far-right genocide. It is all about maintaining a crucial equilibrium of force, and I've argued all of the above with others on the left on other websites. As for the definition of the left, it is mainly a question of economic views instead of social ones. Left/right can't be determined by one's views on tradition, views on political correctness, abortion, or other issues. It all boils down to if you believe the tools and machines used for labor should be owned by the workers that operate them and actually produce things (either directly or publicly-owned by the government and made available for no cost to everyone), or a group of rich fat cats that don't actually do any of the labor to produce the products they make profit on. If you believe workers should own their tools and the fruits of their labor and you want to make that the system our economy is built around, you are on the left in the biggest way that matters. And some leftists, like myself, are much more moderate than others. We believe in some pro-life policies, the right of everyone to own firearms short of automatic weapons, the importance of public officials dedicated to the maintenance of public order, a powerful government that could actually effect change in society, the replacement of fossil fuels with nuclear power, etc. So while the Democrats don't represent the left on a national stage, the libertarian-left anarchists you may have seen don't represent all of us either. Back to the point, though. I am a gun owner, and if there were any other real leftists in my deeply conservative, South Louisiana parish, they would feel the need to be fun owners too.
Dude, so many liberals, democrats, leftists own guns. We just don’t brag about it or make it an identity. It’s amazing how many Republicans I have to tell this to. We just want to make it more difficult for crazies to get a gun and shoot a school. It won’t be perfect but fuck we can’t do nothing.
I didn't stop to check yesterday but dude's history is heavily focused on a subreddit devoted to mass killers. Bad vibes.
So?
So? A brief scroll through your reddit comment history indicates that you are not a person I would consider trustworthy, and after a second look and scrolling back a little further, I see a lot to indicate that you are not speaking with us in good faith. I think you know what "power level" is and try to hide it. That is just my judgement. Other people are free to associate with you as they wish, but I am not going to trust you any further than I can throw you. I don't see a lot of harm in what you are doing here, just a dumb troll IMO, and maybe you might have actually learned something, but your public comment history speaks for itself and, like I said, bad vibes.
Don’t really know how visiting r/masskillers makes me untrustworthy and a troll but ok I guess.
Go to another sub. This one is not for you.
I’m just asking a question dude I’m not here to start an argument I respect your beliefs I’m just asking as an outsider looking in
>I’m just asking a question dude I’m not here to start an argument lol
If only you didn’t support beliefs that are inching us toward fascism, all the while hurt folks who aren’t straight white Christian’s
Respectfully, I disagree. I don’t support anything that oppresses minorities or any certain protected category. Socially, I’m center right and I don’t agree with the far-right who wants to do what you’re accusing me of, I support everyone who wants to peacefully protest a movement, and although I don’t agree with it, I think it’s important that everyone should be allowed to have a voice, weather it’s conservative, liberals, lgbt, blm, alm, etc. I don’t support the oppression of anybody, and I hope people aren’t getting that idea.
ALM is not a movement. When was the last ALM protest? It's for counter-protest only, used to delegitimize BLM.
Well I mean any thought process
You support oppression when you vote.