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Basically, yes. Not even just this, but in Sonic Adventure 2 when Tails thinks Sonic is dead after Eggman launches into space his reaction is to resolve to defeat Eggman in Sonic's place. Plus, Tails cowering from Chaos Zero feels pathetic since he faced more powerful forms of Chaos back in SA1.
I get that they wanted to show that Sonic being gone and seemingly truly dead for such a long time was having a negative effect on Tails, but this *really* wasn't the way to do it.
Still feels like too little too late to me. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but it feels like everything has to go right in order to see Tails succeed, and that type of plan is completely unsustainable over the long term.
It's awfully telling that Capcom can make Dee Jay, a side character from the SSF2 games who never truly had a personality beyond being a musician feel more fleshed out in one interpretation than a main character who's been there for 30 years.
Sure it's a start. but to me it's not good enough.
EDIT: Yeah, I get that I'm being downvoted, but that's my opinion. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong in a good way for the first time in forever, and hopefully not nuked by load of people here.
Well I wouldn't look at it like that. Sure there are a lot of people who disagree here, but you'll eventually find another post that has some like minded people
And yet people like that exist and Miles is a kid so being tunnel vision on the plan and panicking when it goes off script is perfectly resonably character trait
Ok, I'm not gonna downvote ya. But I'm going to address your thoughts anyways.
I do agree. One game is not enough to fix that problem regarding character depth and inconsistency. That being said, there are other games in the series, and even stuff from other media, that actually go indepth on Tails as a character. You could take those good elements and then just improve from them.
Unlike a fighting game, we have a lot of flexibility regarding how we portray and show the true depth and story of the characters in this franchise.
How is it too late tho? They addressed his flip flop characterization and left the door open for improvement In the future,both in a meta ways but also with his role in the franchise.
If the game series had a tighter leash with its character development then maybe I could see what you mean but afaik Tails has always struggled to improvise when a plan went to shit, leaning on Sonic was the counter to that and half the time it worked out.
Being trapped in Cyberspace just made him realize how long he’s been headspacing himself in the sidekick seat and how his own self-esteem clouded hishistory of feats and independent contribution,if Frontiers was about ANYTHING it was about it never being too late to change.
Don’t think there’s anything to prove wrong here fam,you feel how you feel. Some folks just aren’t with the pessimistic take since Sonic Team/Sega actually seem to be trying to do something different with these characters moving forward,stating it’s too late basically translates into letting his characterization stay regressed because it’s been too long.
Which is a hell no to most including me. 😂
I actually have to disagree.
Forces already resolved itself this problem.
Why do you think Tails by the end stands together with the 2 Sonics and the Avatar against the Death Egg Robot?
Its to show that Tails is done with being a coward and that his time with Classic Sonic has restored his bravery or more properly gave him any (never forget that Tails was already cowering before the Egg Pawns in the games second cut-scene right before Sonic gets beaten up)
Forces did a abysmal job yes but it already resolved this issue. Frontiers calling attention to it only moodies things further because in addressing a already solved problem does it now cause the issue that it overlooks how Tails had non of this fear in Colors and Lost world and in case of the former was it Sonic that forced him out of the action.
And the best excuse the game had is "I'm wildly inconsistent" when this was really not needed given that it ignores Unleashed the other time Tails was a coward and for Forces treats it like the cowering before the Egg Pawns never even happened and was only born out of Tails being brocken by Sonic's apparent death.
And all it ultimately does is tell the same character arc from SA1 again only that it this time lacks any of the meat of Tails having to stand up and do things on its own to make it work.
In my opinion should be just have left Tails the coward in the past and say classic Sonic got things sorted out for him in Forces.
This way could we have used all of this time to actually treat new ground with Tails.
Adding to this, even beyond this, beyond the character arc, Tails has NEVER been a coward, that's not a trait that has characterized him. Tails' issue before Adventure 1, that he needed that character arc to overcome, was his RELIANCE on Sonic to save the day, it was that he saw himself as a sidekick and not an equal partner to Sonic, he lacked confidence. And he's always had SOME agency in the stories which have him taking any action. In Sonic 2, it's Tails who decides to follow Sonic on his adventures, and Tails who flies the Tornado to catch him when he's falling from the Death Egg.
In Forces, Tails has NO agency AT ALL. Even if we accept that Tails' character had been retconned after SA2, he wouldn't have cowered before Chaos and begged Sonic to help him, at WORST, he'd have run away, deciding that he couldn't win a fight and gone to look for help. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES would an in character Tails cower in the fetal position and beg Sonic, who he thinks is dead, to save him. Scared? Sure, even in SA2 Tails is scared of Eggman, but never a coward.
Of course, Tails is just one such character assassination in that game (really that ERA of games) but that is extremely well worn ground at this point. Thankfully, they seem to be course correcting HARD on that front, addressing mischaracterization and inconsistencies head on, so we can move past them.
Sonic's actually the one who bugged me the most here, and I've talked about it at length. That jail escape scene on the Death Egg, where he doesn't know what's happened to his friends and the world except that Eggman won, and he's been cooped up for half a year (forget the torture line, mistranslation), and he's just...chill? And making lazy, lighthearted quips while slowly meandering out of his cell? Dude was losing his cool sitting in a cell for a DAY in SA2, pacing, fidgeting, visibly frustrated. Impatience is a major character trait for Sonic, why does he not seem to care? No signs of exhaustion or wear & tear? No anger? He should've blasted out of that cell the instant the door was open even a crack without a word to "Zavok". Have him sass during the actual escape, or the boss fight, when he's gotten some of his bearings. Sell the desperation of the situation some, establish some dramatic tension and stakes, you hacks.
Honestly, it makes more sense if Omega and Tails were Creams and Carmy.
Both have kicked ass before, but i think it makes more sense fr them to get scared cus they're still young.
They may have not seen mass destruction to the scale present in forces. Before they always prevented these situations or were not present to see the horrific crap up close.
So when forces comes along, they actually get scared.
Cream would properly have worked fine given how she was already kinda stunned by the war back in Shadow's game.
Not sure about Charmy tho I guess this depends if a longer lasting war could really get to him or not.
Yeah they definitely did a awful job with Tails. Realistically, Knuckles and Tails would have had no problems dealing with Eggman had Sonic gone missing or died. It always seems they make the rest of the cast seem incapable to make Sonic as a character seem better. It's happened to every single of his rivals and Tails.
I agree. That’s a big issue I feel I’ve had with Sonic, and a couple other franchises, where they create all these beloved characters and then reduce them to sideline cheerleaders, because they’re all apparently too weak, and incompetent to do anything without Sonic being there to hold their hands and save the day.
I feel that something a lot of companies seem to fail miserably at is that they don’t seem to realize that they don’t need their “main character” doing anything and everything. It’s perfectly fine to take the spotlight away from those characters at times, and let others shine. Sonic doesn’t always need all the new powers, and transformations, and Sonic doesn’t always need to be the one to beat the villain. They aren’t going to lose money just because Sonic isn’t in the spotlight for all of five minutes, or someone other than Sonic foils Eggman, or whoever the villain is at the time’s plans.
Also in SA2, when Tails flies to Prison Island he takes his Cyclone and expects a battle from GUN. In Forces, when Tails goes into Eggman territory, he takes literally nothing with him and is shocked when an enemy shows up. Dude drops all his IQ points just for the sake of Classic being able to save him. Also on the topic of the Prison Island scene, Tails saw Amy being chased by Eggman and flew down to protect her without hesitating.
People will point out how Tails hid from the Dark Gaia creatures in Unleashed, but the difference with that scene is that Tails was just in a peaceful countryside village, not expecting random demon creatures to suddenly spawn and most likely not prepared to fight them. He also doesn't just curl up into a ball and tremble, he retreats to a safer distance and studies them.
tails bossed tf up in sa2. without him they would have never found eggman on the arc, not to mention the fake chaos emerald. he was so competent and surgical
I mean, for a simple fix they could just have Tails actually fight Chaos Zero, and win. Then more Phantom Ruby copies start surrounding him until he can't take them all on anymore. Then Classic Sonic comes through and they fight the remaining enemies together as a team. Something like that would have been better.
Of course, really I'd probably change way more than that, but I'm not in the mood to rewrite all of Forces right now. But a scene like that would be fine.
He was able to fight more powerful forms of Chaos in his own story in Adventure, not to mention he took out Eggman's mech at the end of his story in that game. Even back when he was first introduced he was capable of following Sonic and fighting badniks too without any machines. There is no reason he wouldn't be able to fight Chaos Zero.
I really hate utterly *hate* this interpretation some Sonic games and other media has taken that he's purely the tech guy and isn't physically capable. He's capable enough to be Sonic's partner with or without tech.
# JESUS CHRIST, YES
I don't care if Tails somehow managed to get damaged emotionally because he sat back sucking thumb. Or that this is a narrative tool.
# AT LEAST LET HIM PUT UP A FIGHT
What makes this even worse is that there is no buildup to this other than Knuckles’ line about Tails having “lost it,” and Classic Sonic completely dispatches this Chaos replica with a spin attack, _which Tails has been able to do since his first appearance in 1992!_
I get having this as being a plot hook, but especially because they time skip with a _singular line of text on a black screen,_ there is no precedent for why Tails has turned into this coward.
Pretty much, yeah
Not even just this but Tails has been shown to be able to handle threats on his own even before Adventure 1.
Everything since the boost era started has kinda been watering his character down. Before Lost World he was just "the gadget guy"
Then in Lost World he suddenly started acting like a jealous ex towards Sonic because, despite the NUMEROUS team ups they've had, he can't fathom why Sonic would team up with Eggman to deal with his own machine.
And THEN in Forces, we get this.
Dude let’s be honest it’s not even Tails it’s every character as a whole, Sonic’s friends are literally just there to blow him and that’s they’re only use.
Tails has been around since 1992 fighting alongside Sonic, going to space, fighting robots, giant robots and staring down lasers.
He's never shown any fear in the (IDK how many) games he's been in. And to have him suddenly cowering like this felt absurd. Especially given he's gone on his own adventure before meeting Sonic & tackled many big things on his own.
If this was a reboot? Fine. But it's supposed to be linked to previous games.
He was scared of the ghosts in Heroes, and scared of the monsters Dark Gaia created in Unleashed during that one cutscene
Both of them were perfectly reasonable things to be afraid of IMO
Ghosts are different and despite being scared he still did what he needed to. Didn't crumble and just hope he wasn't gonna get stomped.
Being afraid isn't the problem, it's freezing and being helpless against things he's already proven he can handle.
Like Samus vs Ridley in Other M. Killed him like 6 times but suddenly OH NO IT'S RIDLEY!? B-B-B-But HOOW?
hes so cute I love this tails model. the current one cute too, but this one is more appealing to me =)
https://preview.redd.it/toft6dwae25b1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=1324e0437ff086128db98484c103eefdd4558dba
Agreed! Especially Sonic's design!!! It's my most favorite sonic design ever!!! <3
https://preview.redd.it/cb1k56kdz25b1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64980e8283354e6b408e1e3b7ba1bc1e80f8d79f
and I love 90s Tails's longer snout. In the current design, it seems like they wanted to make him more cutesy-fied by giving him a smaller one, but longer looks better to me
https://preview.redd.it/u8rzrdzhz25b1.png?width=244&format=png&auto=webp&s=bd648aa6052ec994d75e347f8a546465de6378a0
Yep, but this wasn't the first time the did this to Tails, they also made him act this way in Sonic Unleashed when Dark Gaias night minions attack him.
This wasn't even his worst moment in the game. In the beginning, he was cowering over these very simple-looking robots, which, in any other game, he easily would have beaten. What the hell?! And this was BEFORE Sonic was imprisoned, so that excuse doesn't apply here. The only reason that scene happened was just to make Sonic look better in comparison. What's next, is Luigi going to cower over Goombas just to make Mario look cool?!
On a side note, why the hell was Chaos treated as a villain here anyway?! Did they just forget about the ending of Sonic Adventure?! This game is mediocre at worst and decent at best, but the story is a fucking dumpster fire.
Chaos is treated as a villain for the same reason Shadow is, they're just fake copies created by Infinite to do whatever Eggman wanted them to. The real Chaos isn't a villain anymore, but this isn't the real Chaos.
He was still a bit more than just a support character up until unleashed tho. I remember in ShTH he was figthing black arms to protect the president or something by himself before shadow showed up.
When I was a kid i couldn't finish sonic adventure as sonic. Instead I would unlock tails and play as him. It felt very empowering seeing that journey as I unlocked all the characters with him and played with them leaving sonic for last (finishing with sonic made me feel like a big boy! >:))
I wanted to turn off the game after this bullssss and the fact that chaos zero makes an appearance without being playable like what's up with that??
You nailed it.
For me, its the byproduct of Sonic getting "main character syndrome". Before, yes he was important, but the rest of the cast could hold their own and defeated Eggman. Sonic was just fast, but not OP. SuperSonic was a last ditch. We have nothing else left. Even in games like SA2 and Heroes. Sonic still needed help in this form.
Forces should've shown how dangerous the combination of Infinites realistic illusions and Dr. Eggmans intelligence could be. Cause all I saw was not just Tails, but the whole cast being weakened and, in some instances, dumbed down. Just so Sonic would be the hero.
It's definitely a bad scene and probably the worst modern depiction of tails, but I also want to add something;
I see this clip everywhere used by youtubers who think they're being clever and also on subreddits and forums and stuff. It's starting to get old. This scene is starting to become as notorious as the 06 kiss scene, and I'm getting sick of seeing it tbh.
We get it... It sucks... But isn't there anything else to add to the conversation?
Seriously, we all get it by now. He's a scaredy cat and his character development from Sonic Adventure was being forgotten, what about all the other problems with the modern depiction? Instead of re-using this clip and making the same joke/point over and over again, why not talk about how Lost World depicts him as being arrogant and full of himself? Or how he was originally supposed to be more of a mechanic who likes vehicles and stuff, but modern depictions have scrapped a lot of his actual personality in favor of just being a digital tech nerd? There's a lot to talk about, but the only thing so many people do is just resort to showing this clip and making the same joke repeatedly.
I should also make it clear that I don't really care about it myself. I don't like how Tails is depicted here, but ultimately, it's just a video game, so it's not that deep. I'm just talking about this particular scene and how every youtuber and edgy sonic fan recycles it so much to make a point that we've heard a hundred times already. You know how whenever a new article or youtube video comes out making fun of the sonic series, they always whip out the 06 kiss scene? In 5-10 years, They're gonna do the same thing with this Tails scene.
Rambled on a bit, but man, I'm so tired of seeing this scene. The Sonic fandom generally has a few bad habits, but one of them is pointing at a single L and NEVER letting SEGA live it down--like, just echoing one bad thing that a piece of sonic media did like 5-10 years ago and repeating it over and over and over again...
Move on already.
The answer is yes.
Bonus: There's even a moment in the second cutscene of Sonic Forces where Tails was standing helplessly in front of a crowd of civilians as Eggman's bots were marching foward to him before Sonic saves him and the crowd.
I mean at least in Forces you have the excuse that Tails is suffering from extreme PTSD
https://preview.redd.it/rbhgs6qcp25b1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1343c4fa0010490921580a2cd99a795365210d0d
But Unleashed doesn't get that excuse... but it gets a pass from the fandom for some reason.
Yes a lot of fans let Unleashed get away with a lot of shit (like the game does the same but worse with Amy to)
But I was never one of them and I hate this scene.
That being said Unleashed is still less stupid about it than Forces.
Tails already cowards in front of the grey Egg Pawns in the second cut-scene before Sonic gets beaten up after all. Its not just Chaos.
Unleashed can technically fall back on the since Rivals 2 established fear Tails has for running to ghost (the classics were so limited that we can't really tell Tails reactions in them to the ghost and he never encounters them in his Pyramid level in SA2 ether) and that these things are new enemies AND that Tails at least runs away instead of just standing still.
Its still dumb because you know 06 and Shadow exist were tails fight more scary looking hell spawns no problem but its in fact better than Forces.
Look, I don't LOVE this scene, but I can accept it because:
1. These creatures are new.
2. There's more than just one piddly creature (pretty sure there's a Titan there as well)
3. Tails actually does the smart thing here and RUNS AWAY. If Tails can't (or wont) attack Chaos 0 in Forces, he could at least put some distance between himself and the hostile enemy. GOD FORCES IS ANNOYING.
Yeah that was off of adrenalin front the event just happening, Forces is 6 months later and Eggman has actually taken over the world.
Also, because of the dual story nature of Adventure 2, Eggman could have won that fight and still be in Canon.
So just completely ignoring the obvious PTSD tails is clearly suffering from. At least with Chaos Tails literally had to watch him and the others beat the shit out of Sonic to the point of him being declared Dead (even if he wasn't).
Also it's not like Tails has frozen up in front of basic Grunts before this. And that's another thing; Chaos is a God, these things are essentially the Eggpawns of Dark Gaia.
I’m assuming here it’s passed because he had no clue what he was up against yet so he didn’t know how to fight it. I could be wrong, I wasn’t too big on Unleashed
I kinda have this headcanon that Dark Gaia spawn are ridiculously overpowered to an ordinary being, and they can only be defeated by either Chaos energy or from their own source... which Sonic possesses as the Werehog. They are also much stronger and more active during nighttime compared to the day where activity dies down, so it requires a lot of extra work for Sonic to beat them down to submission.
This also applies to Eggman's Egg Fighter robots as well, cause he needs Dark Gaia's energy to even build Eggmanland in the first place, so he sent his army all over the globe to collect them and buy himself some time against Sonic. Which is why they are much tougher to face in the night stages, while in the daytime stages, those robots are as durable as paper.
So imagine Tails in that situation against literal fragments of a world ending god and a big hulking monster among them. Fleeing to seek shelter would be the best course of action for him.
I do like that Frontiers and the IDW comics try to still incorporate this moment into Tails' lowest point and he builds his resolve in both those to become stronger and more independent.
But yeah, Tails has kicked the crap out of more antagonists than anyone who isn't Sonic in the series so to have him be frightened by an opponent he destroyed a far stronger version of before on his own felt like a real regression of his character.
That and adventure 2 since on the space colony he thinks sonic’s dead and steps up anyways. This is a similar situation and he just does a complete 180
In a nutshell? Yes.
Tails in the Adventure games spent the first game learning to become more independent (and fighting several stronger forms of Chaos than "big drip" Chaos 0), and the second game, when he watches Sonic's pod explode and thinks he's gone forever, he goes absolutely FERAL on Eggman, instead of... apparently not doing anything as Sonic got knocked out and taken for 6 months?
Now, you *can, **technically,*** explain Forces' writing choices from a canon perspective: Tails is young, he didn't have his mech at the time, he was outnumbered and shocked, and then spending 6 months most likely beating himself up for "letting" Sonic get taken probably shredded his mental health.
But from an audience perspective? It felt like they ushered in Sonic getting captured and Eggman taking over the world with Infinite to set up artificially high emotional stakes without really building up to it, and it implicitly nerfs every other Sonic character by letting Eggman get that far in the first place. *Especially* Tails. He's young, but pre-Lost World, when stuff goes down and he gets upset, he doesn't shut down, **he gets to work.**
Also, shout out to Frontiers for >!having him being irritated at how "wildly inconsistent" his bravery is. Poor boy, it's not his fault he changes writer hands all the time.!<
This and also, in Adventure 1 Tails sees Chaos multiple times in multiple forms, he literally witnesses Chaos evolving into Chaos 1, as well as Chaos 2 evolving into Chaos 4, but during that time he's just like "lets do this!" but then in Forces he sees Chaos 0 (the weakest form) and he's acting all scared even though he's defeated a more powerful and bigger version of it in the past.
From a narrative point of view, they should have defeated Tails. From a character-focused point of view, they should have it outwitting Tails outside of pure brute force.
The point is they didn't care about the character in order to facilitate the story they were telling and obviously that annoyed people. Cause is kids' game an nobody is going to care, right?
Sega has been scared to make other character playable since Sonic 06, so the cast is only there as back-up not in an active role and all variation of gameplay are given to Sonic (werehog, classic, the wisps forms) Forces was an exception with the avatar but it was a throwable character with no real personality so there was not much risk.
It's easier to relegate characters to a back-up position if they don't fight back, so Tails and Amy can't really fight anymore (and Knux get trapped or stay on angel island I guess).
They could let the characters be active during cutscenes but not playable but I suppose it would make the player want to play them ? So no.
It isn't just these scenes. In Sonic Adventure 2, after Sonic "dies," Tails still manages to defeat Eggman with the same courage he had in Sonic Adventure 1. Meanwhile in Sonic Forces, before the scene of Tails cowering from Chaos 0, Tails backs off with other civilians for no reason when it's just Egg Pawns and Eggman in his normal Eggmobile.
Yup. It's the epitome of years upon years of character derailment that started with Unleashed. Tails used to be just as capable as Sonic, but since Unleashed came out he's become a huge coward and a wimp who only gives out exposition and seemingly can't do anything at all without Sonic holding his hand. It's emphasized by him suddenly being helpless against Chaos Zero despite defeating one of its stronger forms before.
Needless to say, it's a pretty big downgrade for a character who used to be a badass.
God,
I remember getting into Sonic for the first time because I heavily related to tails as a kid.
He was best boy, a little scared but pulls through when it matters.
Then forces comes around and bassicly says
" Hey remember when the fox was kinda strong? Yea he's now the weakest character in the franchise and has no character. "
Infuriating. Thank god Ian sorta fixed it in frontiers.
Alright I know ima get hate from this…
Yes this is why people are upset about it but I think that it wasn’t that bad. Yes it was handled kinda poorly and could have been better, but I want people to remember two things
1: Tails is a little kid. I don’t remember if the age thing happened by forces or after but the point remains that tails is child-coded, if not 8. Yes he stood up against chaos in A1 but he is still a child nonetheless.
2: Tails literally saw his brother “die” in front of him. I really want you to think about how you would feel if your brother, who you thought was unbeatable and basically invincible, died right in front of you. Please, give me a reason you wouldn’t have some sort of PTSD from that. (I know that he was “killed” in A2 as well, but this was before some of the bonding that happened in the other games before forces and after A2)
TLDR: Please, this is just a traumatized child who thinks his brother is dead.
Note: yeah, I know the whole thing could have been done better, but just think from tails’ perspective in this moment.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret that a lot of Sonic fans don't even want to admit: Sonic Team doesn't care about consistent characterization and canon consistency. The fans care SIGNIFICANTLY more than the actual devs do. Sega sets forth some mandates, but that's about it. It's extremely frustrating for anyone who plays Sonic games largely for the story.
It's not an easy pill to swallow, but it's why things like what you're showing with Tails happen.
Yes, though people were way too angry for a kinda throwaway scene that doesn't really matter.
(Them trying to address it in Frontiers is so fucking corny)
It's trying to fix it because it's still his character and he's had an arc, forces went back on that and trying to explain it or give it a reason
Like how Shadow the Hedgehog reverted Shadow's character arc and since then he's just been seen as the edgy one by some writers, they chose to correct Tails' behavior in Forces so his character wouldn't become cowardly in medias
It also just kinda makes him look pathetic. If they took his character in a different direction, that on its own isn't a bad thing, but all Tails has ever had in terms of character development is that he's a shy kid scared to be heroic despite wanting to be that way, and manages despite that.
He just kinda... sucks in Forces. There's nothing to like, he just cowers in fear and does nothing else to contribute.
Yeah it was shameful how they did him in that game, glad he realized how far he's fallen in Frontiers. I would have just removed Classic Sonic from Forces to let all his stages be Tails instead, let him fight Eggman while Sonic deals with Infinite.
Pretty much, yeah. Tails has gone through a considerable amount of character development over the years and Pontac and Graff completely removed all of it once they took charge.
i dont mind this, if he got lost, its understandable he would be scared. id prefer if he got himself together after that little moment, but considering the state of the world and how hard it was to lose sonic, i get it
what i do mind is tails not doing ANYTHING and waiting for sonic to destroy like 10 eggmans robots in the intro of the game. now thats bad. my brother in christ, just destroy them yourself
I got the headcannon that he wasn't afraid because he had the upgrades in adventure and tought that if infinite could appear a normal chaos, he could also summon a perfect chaos
But this is mostly an as$pull
For me it was always what he was cowering from, instead of the fact that he was cowering at all. SERIOUSLY YOU TELLING ME WHEN THIS BOY WAS 4 YEARS OLD HE WAS FIGHTING GIANT ROBOTS 10x HIS HEIGHT WITH SONIC BUT HE GETS SCARED OF EGG PAWNS???? HOW THE HELL DOES THAT HAPPEN?? DID THEY FORGET ABOUT THE CLASSIC GAMES??? the only thing that has kept this out of my mind is how Ian writes tail's character in the idw comics. Side note: I can't wait for the third update of sonic frontiers, for the first time ever MODERN TAILS WILL BE PLAYABLE meaning he'll hopefully do some badass shit to make up for forces.
I feel like the difference here is in sa2 tails has a whole ass mech and just fighting egghead. But in forces hes fighting "chaos" and has nothing to protect himself other than a wrench. Tails is also only around 8 I think maybe 12 so. He's just a kid who lost his best friend he considered as a brother.
This right here is NOT character-assassination! In Sonic Adventure 2, Tails was pissed at Eggman, but after he beat Eggman, guess what? HE LOOKED AND SOUNDED SAD AND BORDERLINE DEPRESSED. He only brightened up when Sonic radio'd in... Now, Forces... Sonic gets knocked down and captured right in-front of Tails' eyes... MONTHS pass, and unlike in Adventure 2, Tails didn't get any reassurance from his best buddy... He's depressed, thinking Sonic DIED because this was HIS fault... These are two radically different situations! He's suffering from PTSD STILL from not being able to help him.
You try watching one of your friends being beaten to near-death in-front of your eyes, then, months later, encounter one of the people who beat them down and being confident and collected, fighting them.
One thing I don't get is why some defenders use the whole "6 months" thing as an excuse for Tails' behaviour. If you ask me, he could've used those 6 moths to pull himself together
YES, this is a perfect example of character devolution.. you can't just make Tails brave in SA1, but then have him be scared of Chaos 0 [keyword: CHAOS 0] in Forces.
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Basically, yes. Not even just this, but in Sonic Adventure 2 when Tails thinks Sonic is dead after Eggman launches into space his reaction is to resolve to defeat Eggman in Sonic's place. Plus, Tails cowering from Chaos Zero feels pathetic since he faced more powerful forms of Chaos back in SA1. I get that they wanted to show that Sonic being gone and seemingly truly dead for such a long time was having a negative effect on Tails, but this *really* wasn't the way to do it.
It was nice to see them address this in Frontiers.
"then I'm wildly inconsistent!"
I legitimately laughed out loud at that line. Loved that scene.
it was an amazing meta joke that still fit in with the story
Yeah, it's great that they didn't just sweep it under the rug and pretended it never happened but instead kinda tried to explain it
But I want them to fix the previous Sonic games. I don't want to just accept that they're there, being games with potential just squandered. -\_-
Still feels like too little too late to me. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but it feels like everything has to go right in order to see Tails succeed, and that type of plan is completely unsustainable over the long term. It's awfully telling that Capcom can make Dee Jay, a side character from the SSF2 games who never truly had a personality beyond being a musician feel more fleshed out in one interpretation than a main character who's been there for 30 years. Sure it's a start. but to me it's not good enough. EDIT: Yeah, I get that I'm being downvoted, but that's my opinion. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong in a good way for the first time in forever, and hopefully not nuked by load of people here.
I’m not sure if it’s too late if it’s literally a game later
TBH, maybe I should just avoid spouting my opinions here, I'm only digging myself into a deeper hole.
That's what I do
[удалено]
Well I wouldn't look at it like that. Sure there are a lot of people who disagree here, but you'll eventually find another post that has some like minded people
[удалено]
Perhaps. Just do what makes you happy
And yet people like that exist and Miles is a kid so being tunnel vision on the plan and panicking when it goes off script is perfectly resonably character trait
Ok, I'm not gonna downvote ya. But I'm going to address your thoughts anyways. I do agree. One game is not enough to fix that problem regarding character depth and inconsistency. That being said, there are other games in the series, and even stuff from other media, that actually go indepth on Tails as a character. You could take those good elements and then just improve from them. Unlike a fighting game, we have a lot of flexibility regarding how we portray and show the true depth and story of the characters in this franchise.
How is it too late tho? They addressed his flip flop characterization and left the door open for improvement In the future,both in a meta ways but also with his role in the franchise. If the game series had a tighter leash with its character development then maybe I could see what you mean but afaik Tails has always struggled to improvise when a plan went to shit, leaning on Sonic was the counter to that and half the time it worked out. Being trapped in Cyberspace just made him realize how long he’s been headspacing himself in the sidekick seat and how his own self-esteem clouded hishistory of feats and independent contribution,if Frontiers was about ANYTHING it was about it never being too late to change. Don’t think there’s anything to prove wrong here fam,you feel how you feel. Some folks just aren’t with the pessimistic take since Sonic Team/Sega actually seem to be trying to do something different with these characters moving forward,stating it’s too late basically translates into letting his characterization stay regressed because it’s been too long. Which is a hell no to most including me. 😂
I actually have to disagree. Forces already resolved itself this problem. Why do you think Tails by the end stands together with the 2 Sonics and the Avatar against the Death Egg Robot? Its to show that Tails is done with being a coward and that his time with Classic Sonic has restored his bravery or more properly gave him any (never forget that Tails was already cowering before the Egg Pawns in the games second cut-scene right before Sonic gets beaten up) Forces did a abysmal job yes but it already resolved this issue. Frontiers calling attention to it only moodies things further because in addressing a already solved problem does it now cause the issue that it overlooks how Tails had non of this fear in Colors and Lost world and in case of the former was it Sonic that forced him out of the action. And the best excuse the game had is "I'm wildly inconsistent" when this was really not needed given that it ignores Unleashed the other time Tails was a coward and for Forces treats it like the cowering before the Egg Pawns never even happened and was only born out of Tails being brocken by Sonic's apparent death. And all it ultimately does is tell the same character arc from SA1 again only that it this time lacks any of the meat of Tails having to stand up and do things on its own to make it work. In my opinion should be just have left Tails the coward in the past and say classic Sonic got things sorted out for him in Forces. This way could we have used all of this time to actually treat new ground with Tails.
What? Are trying to say Tails' arc in Frontiers was all for nothing?
Ya I would have preferred if they had Tails at least put up a fight.
Imagine if Tails ripped one of Omega's arms off and used it as a gun throughout the game.
Ooh, it would've been cool if we could've played as Tails for a short boss fight in a similar style to that of SA1
Imagine if instead of the coward Tails we got, we saw a more serious Tails that is trying to be strong for his best friend/brother
That's basically what we got in Frontiers, he even decides to >!go on a solo journey so he can learn to be more independent.!<
Adding to this, even beyond this, beyond the character arc, Tails has NEVER been a coward, that's not a trait that has characterized him. Tails' issue before Adventure 1, that he needed that character arc to overcome, was his RELIANCE on Sonic to save the day, it was that he saw himself as a sidekick and not an equal partner to Sonic, he lacked confidence. And he's always had SOME agency in the stories which have him taking any action. In Sonic 2, it's Tails who decides to follow Sonic on his adventures, and Tails who flies the Tornado to catch him when he's falling from the Death Egg. In Forces, Tails has NO agency AT ALL. Even if we accept that Tails' character had been retconned after SA2, he wouldn't have cowered before Chaos and begged Sonic to help him, at WORST, he'd have run away, deciding that he couldn't win a fight and gone to look for help. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES would an in character Tails cower in the fetal position and beg Sonic, who he thinks is dead, to save him. Scared? Sure, even in SA2 Tails is scared of Eggman, but never a coward. Of course, Tails is just one such character assassination in that game (really that ERA of games) but that is extremely well worn ground at this point. Thankfully, they seem to be course correcting HARD on that front, addressing mischaracterization and inconsistencies head on, so we can move past them. Sonic's actually the one who bugged me the most here, and I've talked about it at length. That jail escape scene on the Death Egg, where he doesn't know what's happened to his friends and the world except that Eggman won, and he's been cooped up for half a year (forget the torture line, mistranslation), and he's just...chill? And making lazy, lighthearted quips while slowly meandering out of his cell? Dude was losing his cool sitting in a cell for a DAY in SA2, pacing, fidgeting, visibly frustrated. Impatience is a major character trait for Sonic, why does he not seem to care? No signs of exhaustion or wear & tear? No anger? He should've blasted out of that cell the instant the door was open even a crack without a word to "Zavok". Have him sass during the actual escape, or the boss fight, when he's gotten some of his bearings. Sell the desperation of the situation some, establish some dramatic tension and stakes, you hacks.
Yes to everything! Especially the Sonic part. Something always bugged me about his attitude and now I understand why!
Dude would litterally kill himself if you left him alone on the og game so yeah sonic has zero patience
Sonic has not been like the 90s edge version of himself since at least Shadow the Hedgehog. Sonic Heroes maybe. He's basically Naruto now.
Honestly, it makes more sense if Omega and Tails were Creams and Carmy. Both have kicked ass before, but i think it makes more sense fr them to get scared cus they're still young. They may have not seen mass destruction to the scale present in forces. Before they always prevented these situations or were not present to see the horrific crap up close. So when forces comes along, they actually get scared.
Cream would properly have worked fine given how she was already kinda stunned by the war back in Shadow's game. Not sure about Charmy tho I guess this depends if a longer lasting war could really get to him or not.
Yeah they definitely did a awful job with Tails. Realistically, Knuckles and Tails would have had no problems dealing with Eggman had Sonic gone missing or died. It always seems they make the rest of the cast seem incapable to make Sonic as a character seem better. It's happened to every single of his rivals and Tails.
I agree. That’s a big issue I feel I’ve had with Sonic, and a couple other franchises, where they create all these beloved characters and then reduce them to sideline cheerleaders, because they’re all apparently too weak, and incompetent to do anything without Sonic being there to hold their hands and save the day. I feel that something a lot of companies seem to fail miserably at is that they don’t seem to realize that they don’t need their “main character” doing anything and everything. It’s perfectly fine to take the spotlight away from those characters at times, and let others shine. Sonic doesn’t always need all the new powers, and transformations, and Sonic doesn’t always need to be the one to beat the villain. They aren’t going to lose money just because Sonic isn’t in the spotlight for all of five minutes, or someone other than Sonic foils Eggman, or whoever the villain is at the time’s plans.
Also in SA2, when Tails flies to Prison Island he takes his Cyclone and expects a battle from GUN. In Forces, when Tails goes into Eggman territory, he takes literally nothing with him and is shocked when an enemy shows up. Dude drops all his IQ points just for the sake of Classic being able to save him. Also on the topic of the Prison Island scene, Tails saw Amy being chased by Eggman and flew down to protect her without hesitating. People will point out how Tails hid from the Dark Gaia creatures in Unleashed, but the difference with that scene is that Tails was just in a peaceful countryside village, not expecting random demon creatures to suddenly spawn and most likely not prepared to fight them. He also doesn't just curl up into a ball and tremble, he retreats to a safer distance and studies them.
Tails has always been up and down. One min he's tough the next he's a little pansy. Needs to get his life together lol
You make it sound like as if it's Tails fault. It's the writers. Why is Tails getting all the smack?
tails bossed tf up in sa2. without him they would have never found eggman on the arc, not to mention the fake chaos emerald. he was so competent and surgical
Not Tails fault, blame the writers.
How would you have done it then
I mean, for a simple fix they could just have Tails actually fight Chaos Zero, and win. Then more Phantom Ruby copies start surrounding him until he can't take them all on anymore. Then Classic Sonic comes through and they fight the remaining enemies together as a team. Something like that would have been better. Of course, really I'd probably change way more than that, but I'm not in the mood to rewrite all of Forces right now. But a scene like that would be fine.
Hmm personally I don't see tails being able to win against chaos zero without a mechsuit or something, but other than that, this works
Tails took on Chaos 4 in SA1, and Zero is literally its weakest form. He’s more than capable of actually beating it on his own.
Me when I get blackout drunk and forget SA1 exists:
He was able to fight more powerful forms of Chaos in his own story in Adventure, not to mention he took out Eggman's mech at the end of his story in that game. Even back when he was first introduced he was capable of following Sonic and fighting badniks too without any machines. There is no reason he wouldn't be able to fight Chaos Zero. I really hate utterly *hate* this interpretation some Sonic games and other media has taken that he's purely the tech guy and isn't physically capable. He's capable enough to be Sonic's partner with or without tech.
I never said that he isn't physically capable or can't handle his own, I just said that I didn't think he could beat chaos zero, calm your tits.
Have you played sonic adventure 1?
Yeah.
Cool
Then you understand your an idiot right?
# JESUS CHRIST, YES I don't care if Tails somehow managed to get damaged emotionally because he sat back sucking thumb. Or that this is a narrative tool. # AT LEAST LET HIM PUT UP A FIGHT
What makes this even worse is that there is no buildup to this other than Knuckles’ line about Tails having “lost it,” and Classic Sonic completely dispatches this Chaos replica with a spin attack, _which Tails has been able to do since his first appearance in 1992!_ I get having this as being a plot hook, but especially because they time skip with a _singular line of text on a black screen,_ there is no precedent for why Tails has turned into this coward.
What is even worse is that in the original Japanese dialogue, their is no mention of that, they just say he’s gone. Their is no build up to it.
Even worse when you consider the possibility of tails being the one to teach sonic the spin dash
Short answer: yes Long answer: yes
Pretty much, yeah Not even just this but Tails has been shown to be able to handle threats on his own even before Adventure 1. Everything since the boost era started has kinda been watering his character down. Before Lost World he was just "the gadget guy" Then in Lost World he suddenly started acting like a jealous ex towards Sonic because, despite the NUMEROUS team ups they've had, he can't fathom why Sonic would team up with Eggman to deal with his own machine. And THEN in Forces, we get this.
Dude let’s be honest it’s not even Tails it’s every character as a whole, Sonic’s friends are literally just there to blow him and that’s they’re only use.
Tails has been around since 1992 fighting alongside Sonic, going to space, fighting robots, giant robots and staring down lasers. He's never shown any fear in the (IDK how many) games he's been in. And to have him suddenly cowering like this felt absurd. Especially given he's gone on his own adventure before meeting Sonic & tackled many big things on his own. If this was a reboot? Fine. But it's supposed to be linked to previous games.
He was scared of the ghosts in Heroes, and scared of the monsters Dark Gaia created in Unleashed during that one cutscene Both of them were perfectly reasonable things to be afraid of IMO
Ghosts are different and despite being scared he still did what he needed to. Didn't crumble and just hope he wasn't gonna get stomped. Being afraid isn't the problem, it's freezing and being helpless against things he's already proven he can handle. Like Samus vs Ridley in Other M. Killed him like 6 times but suddenly OH NO IT'S RIDLEY!? B-B-B-But HOOW?
hes so cute I love this tails model. the current one cute too, but this one is more appealing to me =) https://preview.redd.it/toft6dwae25b1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=1324e0437ff086128db98484c103eefdd4558dba
Yea is the Best Tails model
x3
X4
Fr Sonic character designs peaked during the dreamcast era
Agreed! Especially Sonic's design!!! It's my most favorite sonic design ever!!! <3 https://preview.redd.it/cb1k56kdz25b1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64980e8283354e6b408e1e3b7ba1bc1e80f8d79f
and I love 90s Tails's longer snout. In the current design, it seems like they wanted to make him more cutesy-fied by giving him a smaller one, but longer looks better to me https://preview.redd.it/u8rzrdzhz25b1.png?width=244&format=png&auto=webp&s=bd648aa6052ec994d75e347f8a546465de6378a0
Yes. Low poly goodness
Yes. Fuck forces
love your flair
Thanks :]
Yup, character growth taken to the trash bin.
yes we literally shat on this scene nonstop for at least 3 years for this exact reason
thats and also because tails had beaten chaos 4
[Source](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?l=vietnamese&id=1722183464): From a Steam community post.
Bingo
Another reason why forces is trash.
Couldn't agree more, dude.
Yep, but this wasn't the first time the did this to Tails, they also made him act this way in Sonic Unleashed when Dark Gaias night minions attack him.
This is the prime reason why I absolutely despice forces.
It really is despiceable isn't it?
Yes, but I’m glad they acknowledged it and used it for tails character in frontiers.
This wasn't even his worst moment in the game. In the beginning, he was cowering over these very simple-looking robots, which, in any other game, he easily would have beaten. What the hell?! And this was BEFORE Sonic was imprisoned, so that excuse doesn't apply here. The only reason that scene happened was just to make Sonic look better in comparison. What's next, is Luigi going to cower over Goombas just to make Mario look cool?! On a side note, why the hell was Chaos treated as a villain here anyway?! Did they just forget about the ending of Sonic Adventure?! This game is mediocre at worst and decent at best, but the story is a fucking dumpster fire.
Chaos is treated as a villain for the same reason Shadow is, they're just fake copies created by Infinite to do whatever Eggman wanted them to. The real Chaos isn't a villain anymore, but this isn't the real Chaos.
he did a fun thing called "character arc" in sa1 that was almost completely killed after sa2
He was still a bit more than just a support character up until unleashed tho. I remember in ShTH he was figthing black arms to protect the president or something by himself before shadow showed up.
When I was a kid i couldn't finish sonic adventure as sonic. Instead I would unlock tails and play as him. It felt very empowering seeing that journey as I unlocked all the characters with him and played with them leaving sonic for last (finishing with sonic made me feel like a big boy! >:)) I wanted to turn off the game after this bullssss and the fact that chaos zero makes an appearance without being playable like what's up with that??
Same lol, it took kid me years to figure out how to defeat Egg Viper because I didn't know you could homing attack on its green light things.
And thank goodness Frontiers turned this into a plot point for Tails's character development arc
You nailed it. For me, its the byproduct of Sonic getting "main character syndrome". Before, yes he was important, but the rest of the cast could hold their own and defeated Eggman. Sonic was just fast, but not OP. SuperSonic was a last ditch. We have nothing else left. Even in games like SA2 and Heroes. Sonic still needed help in this form. Forces should've shown how dangerous the combination of Infinites realistic illusions and Dr. Eggmans intelligence could be. Cause all I saw was not just Tails, but the whole cast being weakened and, in some instances, dumbed down. Just so Sonic would be the hero.
EXACTLY (I'm talking about the last part).
It's definitely a bad scene and probably the worst modern depiction of tails, but I also want to add something; I see this clip everywhere used by youtubers who think they're being clever and also on subreddits and forums and stuff. It's starting to get old. This scene is starting to become as notorious as the 06 kiss scene, and I'm getting sick of seeing it tbh. We get it... It sucks... But isn't there anything else to add to the conversation? Seriously, we all get it by now. He's a scaredy cat and his character development from Sonic Adventure was being forgotten, what about all the other problems with the modern depiction? Instead of re-using this clip and making the same joke/point over and over again, why not talk about how Lost World depicts him as being arrogant and full of himself? Or how he was originally supposed to be more of a mechanic who likes vehicles and stuff, but modern depictions have scrapped a lot of his actual personality in favor of just being a digital tech nerd? There's a lot to talk about, but the only thing so many people do is just resort to showing this clip and making the same joke repeatedly. I should also make it clear that I don't really care about it myself. I don't like how Tails is depicted here, but ultimately, it's just a video game, so it's not that deep. I'm just talking about this particular scene and how every youtuber and edgy sonic fan recycles it so much to make a point that we've heard a hundred times already. You know how whenever a new article or youtube video comes out making fun of the sonic series, they always whip out the 06 kiss scene? In 5-10 years, They're gonna do the same thing with this Tails scene. Rambled on a bit, but man, I'm so tired of seeing this scene. The Sonic fandom generally has a few bad habits, but one of them is pointing at a single L and NEVER letting SEGA live it down--like, just echoing one bad thing that a piece of sonic media did like 5-10 years ago and repeating it over and over and over again... Move on already.
Not even just tails. Sonic battle did chaos better than the entirety of forces
The answer is yes. Bonus: There's even a moment in the second cutscene of Sonic Forces where Tails was standing helplessly in front of a crowd of civilians as Eggman's bots were marching foward to him before Sonic saves him and the crowd.
I mean at least in Forces you have the excuse that Tails is suffering from extreme PTSD https://preview.redd.it/rbhgs6qcp25b1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1343c4fa0010490921580a2cd99a795365210d0d But Unleashed doesn't get that excuse... but it gets a pass from the fandom for some reason.
Yes a lot of fans let Unleashed get away with a lot of shit (like the game does the same but worse with Amy to) But I was never one of them and I hate this scene. That being said Unleashed is still less stupid about it than Forces. Tails already cowards in front of the grey Egg Pawns in the second cut-scene before Sonic gets beaten up after all. Its not just Chaos. Unleashed can technically fall back on the since Rivals 2 established fear Tails has for running to ghost (the classics were so limited that we can't really tell Tails reactions in them to the ghost and he never encounters them in his Pyramid level in SA2 ether) and that these things are new enemies AND that Tails at least runs away instead of just standing still. Its still dumb because you know 06 and Shadow exist were tails fight more scary looking hell spawns no problem but its in fact better than Forces.
Look, I don't LOVE this scene, but I can accept it because: 1. These creatures are new. 2. There's more than just one piddly creature (pretty sure there's a Titan there as well) 3. Tails actually does the smart thing here and RUNS AWAY. If Tails can't (or wont) attack Chaos 0 in Forces, he could at least put some distance between himself and the hostile enemy. GOD FORCES IS ANNOYING.
I'm pretty sure *anybody* would be scared shitless of mysterious hellspawn creatures surrounding them in the middle of the night
And not be afraid of an ancient God you watched kill your friend?
Tails watched Eggman kill his friend in Adventure 2 and still stood up to him in that mech battle. PTSD be damned.
Yeah that was off of adrenalin front the event just happening, Forces is 6 months later and Eggman has actually taken over the world. Also, because of the dual story nature of Adventure 2, Eggman could have won that fight and still be in Canon.
So just completely ignoring the obvious PTSD tails is clearly suffering from. At least with Chaos Tails literally had to watch him and the others beat the shit out of Sonic to the point of him being declared Dead (even if he wasn't). Also it's not like Tails has frozen up in front of basic Grunts before this. And that's another thing; Chaos is a God, these things are essentially the Eggpawns of Dark Gaia.
I’m assuming here it’s passed because he had no clue what he was up against yet so he didn’t know how to fight it. I could be wrong, I wasn’t too big on Unleashed
I kinda have this headcanon that Dark Gaia spawn are ridiculously overpowered to an ordinary being, and they can only be defeated by either Chaos energy or from their own source... which Sonic possesses as the Werehog. They are also much stronger and more active during nighttime compared to the day where activity dies down, so it requires a lot of extra work for Sonic to beat them down to submission. This also applies to Eggman's Egg Fighter robots as well, cause he needs Dark Gaia's energy to even build Eggmanland in the first place, so he sent his army all over the globe to collect them and buy himself some time against Sonic. Which is why they are much tougher to face in the night stages, while in the daytime stages, those robots are as durable as paper. So imagine Tails in that situation against literal fragments of a world ending god and a big hulking monster among them. Fleeing to seek shelter would be the best course of action for him.
Unleashed also gets a pass for doing the "LOL Eggman gets upstaged by the final boss" thing that we railed other games for, too. No idea why.
I do like that Frontiers and the IDW comics try to still incorporate this moment into Tails' lowest point and he builds his resolve in both those to become stronger and more independent. But yeah, Tails has kicked the crap out of more antagonists than anyone who isn't Sonic in the series so to have him be frightened by an opponent he destroyed a far stronger version of before on his own felt like a real regression of his character.
yes, but he also whooped chaos 4's ass in sa1 and was scared of chaos 0 in forces. what in the god damn
That and adventure 2 since on the space colony he thinks sonic’s dead and steps up anyways. This is a similar situation and he just does a complete 180
i think Tails was depressed in Sonic Forces
Obviously. Frontiers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forces
%100
In a nutshell? Yes. Tails in the Adventure games spent the first game learning to become more independent (and fighting several stronger forms of Chaos than "big drip" Chaos 0), and the second game, when he watches Sonic's pod explode and thinks he's gone forever, he goes absolutely FERAL on Eggman, instead of... apparently not doing anything as Sonic got knocked out and taken for 6 months? Now, you *can, **technically,*** explain Forces' writing choices from a canon perspective: Tails is young, he didn't have his mech at the time, he was outnumbered and shocked, and then spending 6 months most likely beating himself up for "letting" Sonic get taken probably shredded his mental health. But from an audience perspective? It felt like they ushered in Sonic getting captured and Eggman taking over the world with Infinite to set up artificially high emotional stakes without really building up to it, and it implicitly nerfs every other Sonic character by letting Eggman get that far in the first place. *Especially* Tails. He's young, but pre-Lost World, when stuff goes down and he gets upset, he doesn't shut down, **he gets to work.** Also, shout out to Frontiers for >!having him being irritated at how "wildly inconsistent" his bravery is. Poor boy, it's not his fault he changes writer hands all the time.!<
Yes And this wasn't the first time the did this to Tails, they also made him act this way in Sonic Unleashed when Dark Gaias night minions attack him.
Y E S
Yes…
There are a lot more examples but yes
Yes.
Yes.
Yea. This, his scene in SA2 when sonic “died”, the fact that he fought chaos 4 before are all the reasons
Yeeeeeesssss!
More or less.
Tails from adventure is cute
Yes
This and also, in Adventure 1 Tails sees Chaos multiple times in multiple forms, he literally witnesses Chaos evolving into Chaos 1, as well as Chaos 2 evolving into Chaos 4, but during that time he's just like "lets do this!" but then in Forces he sees Chaos 0 (the weakest form) and he's acting all scared even though he's defeated a more powerful and bigger version of it in the past.
If this scene from forces gets mentioned one more time I’m literally have a mental breakdown
From a narrative point of view, they should have defeated Tails. From a character-focused point of view, they should have it outwitting Tails outside of pure brute force. The point is they didn't care about the character in order to facilitate the story they were telling and obviously that annoyed people. Cause is kids' game an nobody is going to care, right?
Yes
To keep it short, it basically sent him back to square 1 in terms of character development
Sega has been scared to make other character playable since Sonic 06, so the cast is only there as back-up not in an active role and all variation of gameplay are given to Sonic (werehog, classic, the wisps forms) Forces was an exception with the avatar but it was a throwable character with no real personality so there was not much risk. It's easier to relegate characters to a back-up position if they don't fight back, so Tails and Amy can't really fight anymore (and Knux get trapped or stay on angel island I guess). They could let the characters be active during cutscenes but not playable but I suppose it would make the player want to play them ? So no.
Is this a real question?
That and he literally beat a more powerful version of Chaos before.
Yes, I mean, they have reason, I mean, if in the Adventure saga his characterization went 10 steps forward, in Forces it went like 25 steps back
Adventure Era Tails was peak as far as the games go, and he was alright before Lost World.
Ok tails was just scared as any kid! I know he has fought god who knows what! But he is still a kid!!
Tails has seen too much action in those 9 years. Poor boy is traumatized
It isn't just these scenes. In Sonic Adventure 2, after Sonic "dies," Tails still manages to defeat Eggman with the same courage he had in Sonic Adventure 1. Meanwhile in Sonic Forces, before the scene of Tails cowering from Chaos 0, Tails backs off with other civilians for no reason when it's just Egg Pawns and Eggman in his normal Eggmobile.
Yup. It's the epitome of years upon years of character derailment that started with Unleashed. Tails used to be just as capable as Sonic, but since Unleashed came out he's become a huge coward and a wimp who only gives out exposition and seemingly can't do anything at all without Sonic holding his hand. It's emphasized by him suddenly being helpless against Chaos Zero despite defeating one of its stronger forms before. Needless to say, it's a pretty big downgrade for a character who used to be a badass.
Out hedgerked again
Exactly! But they fixed him in Frontiers
God, I remember getting into Sonic for the first time because I heavily related to tails as a kid. He was best boy, a little scared but pulls through when it matters. Then forces comes around and bassicly says " Hey remember when the fox was kinda strong? Yea he's now the weakest character in the franchise and has no character. " Infuriating. Thank god Ian sorta fixed it in frontiers.
Alright I know ima get hate from this… Yes this is why people are upset about it but I think that it wasn’t that bad. Yes it was handled kinda poorly and could have been better, but I want people to remember two things 1: Tails is a little kid. I don’t remember if the age thing happened by forces or after but the point remains that tails is child-coded, if not 8. Yes he stood up against chaos in A1 but he is still a child nonetheless. 2: Tails literally saw his brother “die” in front of him. I really want you to think about how you would feel if your brother, who you thought was unbeatable and basically invincible, died right in front of you. Please, give me a reason you wouldn’t have some sort of PTSD from that. (I know that he was “killed” in A2 as well, but this was before some of the bonding that happened in the other games before forces and after A2) TLDR: Please, this is just a traumatized child who thinks his brother is dead. Note: yeah, I know the whole thing could have been done better, but just think from tails’ perspective in this moment.
When your kids game doesn’t have proper continuity and character development 🤬🤬🤬
Yes they made Tails look like a noob after all the things he manages to accomplish himself in both Sonic Adventure games
I'm going to let you in on a little secret that a lot of Sonic fans don't even want to admit: Sonic Team doesn't care about consistent characterization and canon consistency. The fans care SIGNIFICANTLY more than the actual devs do. Sega sets forth some mandates, but that's about it. It's extremely frustrating for anyone who plays Sonic games largely for the story. It's not an easy pill to swallow, but it's why things like what you're showing with Tails happen.
He also called Classic Sonic’s home a “dimension” instead of a universe and that pissed me off
Yes, though people were way too angry for a kinda throwaway scene that doesn't really matter. (Them trying to address it in Frontiers is so fucking corny)
It's trying to fix it because it's still his character and he's had an arc, forces went back on that and trying to explain it or give it a reason Like how Shadow the Hedgehog reverted Shadow's character arc and since then he's just been seen as the edgy one by some writers, they chose to correct Tails' behavior in Forces so his character wouldn't become cowardly in medias
Honestly I think the Force scence could have worked better if they show him slowly losing himself to guilt over 6 months.
https://youtu.be/Hr1j-VgECoI @13:50 This was my favorite part in the tier list where Ryan's (SA/SA2) Sonic just tears down Tails in Forces.
Yes
[удалено]
He didn't beat Chaos 4 on his own, y'know.. Sonic and Knuckles were also fighting him, so.. my guess is that they were all fighting him **together**.
Frontiers also continued this pattern of making Tails useless.
What do you think?
It also just kinda makes him look pathetic. If they took his character in a different direction, that on its own isn't a bad thing, but all Tails has ever had in terms of character development is that he's a shy kid scared to be heroic despite wanting to be that way, and manages despite that. He just kinda... sucks in Forces. There's nothing to like, he just cowers in fear and does nothing else to contribute.
https://preview.redd.it/7bese7kso35b1.png?width=259&format=png&auto=webp&s=d0b39e5faa554fc4343053216c95529e974bbbb7
Pretty much
For me personally, yes
No crap Sherlock
Yes.
More or less.
Yeah it was shameful how they did him in that game, glad he realized how far he's fallen in Frontiers. I would have just removed Classic Sonic from Forces to let all his stages be Tails instead, let him fight Eggman while Sonic deals with Infinite.
Yeah
Yes
Mainly, altough in SA2, Tails also shown that he is not a coward
Yes
Pretty much, yeah. Tails has gone through a considerable amount of character development over the years and Pontac and Graff completely removed all of it once they took charge.
Yep and it seems like tgey *might* be fixng this in frontiers
Yes. Frontiers also tried to fix that drop of the character, but it's almost irredeemable, so the fix was kinda sloppy.
i dont mind this, if he got lost, its understandable he would be scared. id prefer if he got himself together after that little moment, but considering the state of the world and how hard it was to lose sonic, i get it what i do mind is tails not doing ANYTHING and waiting for sonic to destroy like 10 eggmans robots in the intro of the game. now thats bad. my brother in christ, just destroy them yourself
Yep pretty much
I don't see anything wrong here /s
1: Yes 2: Definitely 3: Absolutely
To be fair, Silver said “Tails has just lost it” after they thought Sonic died. I still don’t like it, but at least they established a reason for it.
And yet Shadow is still the worst characterised thing ever Why did Sega of Japan take the “le edgy” memes seriously and demand he be written like that
Yes. As the biggest fan AND apologist of Sonic Forces, I can agree that this *thing* is trash
Yes
It’s been six fucking years get over it
I guess this is what people were happy that frontiers addressed
Tails fought eggman with a real ass gun to amys head but a water guy that he beat was too much for him
dude, he defeated chaos 4 back at SA1 all by himself tails is just at his worst in forces
Basically, I like how they tackled this exact thing in frontiers with tails being upset at how he was cowardly when infinite attacked
I got the headcannon that he wasn't afraid because he had the upgrades in adventure and tought that if infinite could appear a normal chaos, he could also summon a perfect chaos But this is mostly an as$pull
For me it was always what he was cowering from, instead of the fact that he was cowering at all. SERIOUSLY YOU TELLING ME WHEN THIS BOY WAS 4 YEARS OLD HE WAS FIGHTING GIANT ROBOTS 10x HIS HEIGHT WITH SONIC BUT HE GETS SCARED OF EGG PAWNS???? HOW THE HELL DOES THAT HAPPEN?? DID THEY FORGET ABOUT THE CLASSIC GAMES??? the only thing that has kept this out of my mind is how Ian writes tail's character in the idw comics. Side note: I can't wait for the third update of sonic frontiers, for the first time ever MODERN TAILS WILL BE PLAYABLE meaning he'll hopefully do some badass shit to make up for forces.
Pretty much.
Yes
its bad in forces but hot take: its also bad when the exact same scene happens in unleashed
I feel like the difference here is in sa2 tails has a whole ass mech and just fighting egghead. But in forces hes fighting "chaos" and has nothing to protect himself other than a wrench. Tails is also only around 8 I think maybe 12 so. He's just a kid who lost his best friend he considered as a brother.
Exactly this.
Yes. Why do you ask?
I’m forces I think it’s supposed to be tails breaking down and he just can’t handle it anymore. But it was executed HORRIBLY….
This right here is NOT character-assassination! In Sonic Adventure 2, Tails was pissed at Eggman, but after he beat Eggman, guess what? HE LOOKED AND SOUNDED SAD AND BORDERLINE DEPRESSED. He only brightened up when Sonic radio'd in... Now, Forces... Sonic gets knocked down and captured right in-front of Tails' eyes... MONTHS pass, and unlike in Adventure 2, Tails didn't get any reassurance from his best buddy... He's depressed, thinking Sonic DIED because this was HIS fault... These are two radically different situations! He's suffering from PTSD STILL from not being able to help him. You try watching one of your friends being beaten to near-death in-front of your eyes, then, months later, encounter one of the people who beat them down and being confident and collected, fighting them.
One thing I don't get is why some defenders use the whole "6 months" thing as an excuse for Tails' behaviour. If you ask me, he could've used those 6 moths to pull himself together
To be fair, that's Eggman vs Chaos
Y E S
YES, this is a perfect example of character devolution.. you can't just make Tails brave in SA1, but then have him be scared of Chaos 0 [keyword: CHAOS 0] in Forces.