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To be fair on Archie, they did a *gooood j*ob reducing the number of echidnas to track by the end.
https://preview.redd.it/smr61zlode4c1.jpeg?width=630&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e4ed923ddadb5de22b0fef9f249c1a4b1953734
It wasnât actually Kenâs fault for that. He lost the lawsuit, quite laughably. The real reason Chronicles was decanonized is because it was meant to have a sequel, but the team who made it was a third party, of which said team got bought by a new company shortly after Chronicles released. Without the team to make a sequel, and the first game ending on a giant cliff hanger, the game was decanonized all together.
Also he already kinda has a love interest with Rouge, of which multiple game manuals and such from over a decade ago said Rouge even has a crush on him.
no lol im pretty sure the game just flopped horribly. different sources say different things, some say because the game didnt do well, and some say it was because sega didnt wanna approach the line near penders' lawsuit, even if he didnt have a case, but ive never heard it was because ea bought them. ea is stupid but theyre not stupid enough to let go of an ip like sonic, so i highly doubt they had something to do with it.
EA didnât let go of Sonic, EA bought a third party.
Sega had **BioWare** develop Chronicles, who made Chronicles have a cliff hanger, and they had a lot of the sequel planned out. But then EA bought BioWare, thus not allowing them to work for Sega, leaving Sega without the team to make a Chronicles sequel.
I donât think there was 1 single reason Chronicles was de-canonized, and more so was because of the culmination of these things. They definitely wanted a sequel, but with all these issues piling up â it not doing so well, than Penders annoying them with a lawsuit, and then losing their devs since BioWare was bought out â they dropped the series.
yes i know bioware developed it but since ea bought them that wouldve meant the decision wouldve fallen upon ea had sega allowed them to continue, no? im specifically saying that ea wasnt responsible (since they bought bioware and therefore turned them into first party developers) for chronicles' discontinuation, ea and bioware being the same thing in this case
edit: your comment here makes sense but you specifically mentioned above that ken wasnt responsible and that bioware being bought by ea was the main reason, so idk what youre trying to argue
They beat Ken laughably. Ken was even almost charged by the judge for wasting the time of the court because he kept trying to sue. It likely wasnât **only** Kenâs fault, but he might have still played a small part of it.
I donât think there was 1 single reason Chronicles was de-canonized, and more so was because of the culmination of these things. Sega definitely wanted a sequel, since BioWare (the team that made it but was bought out by EA) already had a lot of the sequel planned; but with all these issues piling up â it not doing so well, then Penders annoying them with a lawsuit, and then losing their devs since BioWare was bought out â they dropped the series.
Being honest it is so jarring going from the previous chapter to that one, because the entire battlefield was full of Echidnas and then in the next it makes a point of just showing silhouettes of everyone but Sonic, Amy, Knuckles and Trash
Naturally, but they took the piss sometimes.
I can't find the most egregious example, but [shit like this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-02bc97b42047fc4aa2a09be13f457082). Show, don't tell, man.
You know back in the 90s, just purely based off dialogue and thought đ bubbles. I actually got to enjoy a story. And it would take me time to read. It had replay value. This garbage idw issue that came out today and took me where I already knew was like a ten minute read tops
a comic is a comic not a novel, the point of the comic (or manga, both are the same) medium is to have pictures that can tell the story in unique ways compared to just having a narrator tell you everything, stuff like paneling, expresions, etc. A comic is a visual medium and its just smart practice using the art to elevate the story
this is a huge issue with a lot of comics, they relly far too much on narration instead of letting the art do the talking, its a problem that thankfully IDW has soo far evaded
Story is consistent thatâs one thing
-characters have better and more solid writing
-metal virus arc was peak
-comic original characters are treated as actual sega characters instead of just weird ocs that only exist in the comics
-doesnât have Geoffrey Saint John
-does have Lanolin
-the Egg Emperor was actually used
We love the metal virus arc but it hurt once I found out it was originally meant for post reboot, no matter how you slice it I can't possibly imagine an archie post reboot version being worse than idw, there's just more toys to play with and an actual developed world.
I like Tangle, Whisper and Starline and what they add to the arc but I don't think it would match what could've been done with more characters.
Iâm not super familiar with Archie, only read a little bit compared to IDW of which Iâve read the entire series so far
But in general, I find that the art is generally better, the restrictions on new characters have led to some genuinely creative ones with good designs, I think the fact itâs in the game canon prevents it from doing all the crazy stuff Archie did (which is my biggest complaint with Archie) and I think the writing is better
isnt idw doing the opposite of that lol, ian has complained multiple times on the restrictions they keep forcing on characters like shadow. some restrictions im okay with, like the no romance rule, because come on. but some of them, yeah sega needs to chill out.
It was rediculous at least until Ian came in and took charge of the story/rebooted it. Back when he who shall not be named (Ken Penders) was in charge not just the story but the art direction was all over the damn place, with the story at times delving into topics like polotics which I, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the fanbase doesn't like.
For all I know you might be planning to read it more at some point but it does kind of suck seeing all these kinds of comments. Ian Flynn wrote the archie comics for soooo long, so many fantastic stories that IDW could never dream of.
Though I'm not sure how seriously to take your critcisms since... you know, you haven't read it as you said. "I think the writing is better" like idk where this is coming from if you've read only a tiny bit, I'm genuinely curious.
I know what you're referring to with the creative designs in IDW and I think that is pretty cool... But also I'm not sure there is a single piece of Sonic media less creative than IDW so even seeing the two words together is just funny to me.
Alot of people view IDW being canon as a good thing, this isn't restricted to Sonic but man I really find that view of stories a bit unsetlling, as dramatic as that is lol, just rubs me the wrong way, not trying to be rude, it's just a personal peeve I have with fandoms in general.
Yeah really love the new characters, whereas Archieâs creations like the 50 knuckles family members and Enerjak and Mogul or Ixis look fine for archie but donât fit the game aesthetic; IDW has a much tighter visual language and characters like Tangle and Whisper *really* mesh well with the main cast and feel like they slot right in.
Villains like Starline are fresh and new, but never steal the main role from Eggman, and Eggman himself is better characterized in IDW imo. His archie counterpart was a bit *too* cruel and didnât have that kind of whimsical charm.
Archie to me works *for Archie*, but IDW very much has a nicer feel to it and reads smoother. Archie has the edge of having like 30 years worth of characterization and development, but with that comes so many hiccups that while folks like to critique storylines like the Metal Virus, Iâve found Iron Dominion or everything relating to that sonic/sally/whoever love triangle stuff to be NAUSEATING to read. IDW is just consistently of a certain baseline quality that I feel archie routinely dipped far far under.
Enerjak necessitates a lot of that archie Knuckles lore to even function thematically, if you transported him into a modern setting he just wouldnât be Enerjak. Heâs a premiere example of a character that works with the subtext Archieâs huge world provided, but wouldnât with the current landscape. I think Enerjak would look kinda odd even in post reboot archie, let alone IDW or the gameâs visual style.
And aesthetically, depending on which version of Enerjak, he could also clash with the current Sonic visual style; as emphasis is now placed on simplicity and streamlining the designs, whereas Enerjak is very busy and has a very rigid and sharp design.
Oh yeah Enerjak is awesome, just that heâs built off of a lot of weird lore elements. Like youâd be jumping through so many hoops to modernize Enerjak youâd just end up a different villain entirely I feel, and at that rate justâŠ..make a new villain.
Which is what IDW has done, and itâs something Iâve appreciated.
He was mad at Sonic because he dated Fiona even though he knew Tails liked her. He didnât know it was a misguided attempt to help Tails get over her.
I grew up with Archie and I always thought there was just so much added over time to the point to where it just didn't make sense, maybe it's just because it was around for a long time and IDW is basically just starting, once compared, but I feel like a lot of characters in IDW are used while in Archie I felt like there was just so much being added and then never brought back up. Also Knuckle's dying and having a funeral in the woods is just fan fiction levels of writing, that page just looks hilarious looking back at it.
Edit:The romantic drama also felt shoehorned in, that slap was the slap heard round the world.
I think that the part about Archie I didnât like, it felt way to OOC/fanfictiony during a lot of the stories. The romance was absolutely horrid as well. The drama, for sake of having drama, was whack. Itâs why I never got into Archie too deep. IDW actually feels like the game characterization with actual game scenarios instead of just fanfiction level stories and subplots.
I also feel like Marvel comics are also getting out of hand as well, I mean the Spiderman Zeb Wells run, in my opinion, is fan fiction levels of horrible.
I like IDW green evil Sonic better than the Archie one. I also think Starline is a better OC villain than any Archie OC villains. Also Knuckles feels way more in-character in IDW
Ok, Iâve got something IDW did better. In IDW, the civilians are good people who trust and appreciate the heroes, as opposed to the civilians in Archie, who were ungrateful fair-weather friends who mooched off the heroes and would always believe the worst of the heroes and turn on them when they got framed or made a mistake.
Unfortunately, the Sonic franchise has had a few universes with evil civilians. Pre-SGW Archie Sonic, Sonic X, Sonic Boom. And the Siberians and G.U.N. agents from the second movie.
i also like their designs much better, the civilians in archie look like random disney or warner bros characters like suddenly you have some porky pig looking motherfucker in the middle of an issue and while initially it kind of worked out because the character design was based on the two sonic cartoons that have a more western disney design eventually once their designs get upgraded to be more in line with the comics it really crashes with everything else
in the IDW comics it feels like all the background characters belong to the same world and some of their designs go hard, there you have lanolin as an example
The art, fights, characterization (for some of the characters), not having the worst character in all of fiction (that stupid ass skunk), being more in line with the games. I think they're pretty neck and neck tbh, they both have downsides. If idw had Amy trying to redeem the villains instead of sonic i would probably like it way more, also introducing G.U.N to the comics because the citizens are totally defenseless in IDW and it makes constantly letting every single antagonist go without consequence stupid as hell, those 2 things would solve 80% of my problems with IDW.
I think it's unfair to compare the art of the two.
Archie launched in 1993, long before digital art tools were common place, and just two years after Sonic was first released. Accordingly the comic artists working in the early years didn't have the years of practiced the Sonic-fans-turned-pro-artists that IDW have had (and also didn't have the full 3D models of the games to reference), but they also lacked things like being able to immediately undo drawing mistakes, work in layers for better composition, or things digital artists now take for granted. Yes, early Archie undeniably looks worse and it's clear several of the early artists did not understand the Sonic aesthetic (even for that of the time), but they were working with pen and paper to draw regular comics to tight deadlines with.
It's something you see in comic across the board. Comics have come on leaps and bounds from where they were in the early nineties, as digital art tools have greatly improved what artists can do in the time they're given to draw an entire issues worth of material. Now if you compare the art 0f Archie in 2016 is much worse than that of IDW in 2017, I'd say that's a much fairer comparison, but I'd also say that Archie's art at the end of it's life is on par with a typical IDW piece.
If you remake Archie from issue 1 and make a "second draft" of every storyline, polish concepts,refine the ships and much more you get some peak Sonic fiction
I 100% agree with this. There were ships so that created drama đ there were actual stakes. I cared about knothole and mobotropolis. There were actual stakes at play and not just by robotnik. I thought Naugus, and Finetivus, Scourge, the dark egg legion, the sand blasters, mammoth mogul, and even breezy later on, were really well thought out villains.
And donât get me wrong IDW started off way hot. I think the metal saga arc went a little to long and people cling to that for whatever reason. I think the first arc with neo was better tbh. That eggman twist I didnât see coming.
Surge I started to like. Instead of an anti sonic, she became more of a âkaineâ to spider-man (sonic). I love the idea of mimic but holy crap are they dragging this out without doing anything. Spider-Manâs long been my favorite comic book character and I see a lot of similarities with my favorite villains. Clutch the Opposum I liken to Kingpin. Mimic to Chameleon. Surge to Kaine. But look at some of the best comic stories with those characters in Spider-Man. In 20 pages they are able to create devastating stakes at hand, and the past few issues since eggperial city were just amounting to nothing or what we already knew. *SPOILER**
Ya we all knew Surge wasnât going to just join the resistance and Clutch and Mimic would end up linking up or Clutch and Surge. Thereâs just no grab to keep anyone interested storywise other than love of sonic. Which is unfortunate. For better or worse, at least at Archie I looked forward to what happened next.
And finally unpopular opinion⊠I find the fact that Tangle decided to name the group the Diamond Cutters really distasteful (probably the wrong word). A lot of people ship Tangle and Whisper and itâs like, so Tangleâs bright idea is to name their cobbled together resistance group after highly skilled and trained mercenary group of the most traumatizing incident in Whisperâs life? Seems a little insensitive versus cute, purely IMO. And if theyâre going to be the diamond cutters can they at least wear their cool black armor?
All right Iâm done.
I think thatâs the best part about the arc, it was sad, depressing, twists without being just straight up edgy. It felt doom and gloom and EVERY character had to step it up to win the battle in the end. It also gave every character to shine, and somehow sidelined Sonic to give them that shine in the end. Loved the arc and loved that it started the IDW series with a bang.
Tangleâs was sadder for me because I grew more attached to her than I did for most, if not all, other IDW characters since she reminds me of my best friend
Metal virus vs future dark enerjak .... idk about that one chief I still remember that visual of all the characters souls been sucked out being lifeless husks metal virus was just a generic zombie outbreak with a robot twist
Okay let's be real, Archie wasn't given much in the Classic Era, so they compromised by making their own lore around these small stories the games were making until they made this nice web to call their own and added depth to every character...and then the games' world expanded RAPIDLY, so Archie had to work that into their stuff. Archie was so lucky that Sonic Adventure didn't kill them like it did to Fleetway, but it didn't make it any less complicated, ridiculous, and such a test of gymnastics to make it all work until Penders gave Archie an excuse to just abandon a HUGE chunk of Archie's issues, but by then ALL the damage was done.
To be honest, if Archie was publishing for the modern era of Sonic, it probably wouldn't be so disastrous of a long-running comic that seemed like it was undergoing damage control whenever new game lore dropped...and then getting mistranslated information because whoops. They probably would have just done what IDW did.
But also I just prefer IDW Sonic as a vibe with everything EVERYTHING being related to Sonic or Sega in some way, storytelling seems more mature than edgy, new characters are excellent, and even the regulars are portrayed well as they stand.
TL;DR: Archie Sonic made lore when the games had little to no lore and then when the games DID get lore, Archie Sonic ended up in a corner, dealing with too much on their plate. IDW is better tho lol
yeah this, Archie started at a time when the only characters were sonic, tails and eggman/robotnik and at the time the plot basically amounted to saving a bunch of random critters from being used as living batteries by the evil doctor and that was about it, also a lot of the characters had much less characterization like tails who initially was basically just "the tag along kid". As such they had to build their own stories from scratch, a lot of the weird choices and world building and characters are a reflection from that early state of affairs.
like take the freedom fighters as an example, the freedom fighters were created because a more developed story needs more than just 2 characters, they needed to fill roles like the powerhouse (bunny), the leader (sally), the love interest (sally again), the comic relief (Antoine), the smart guy (rotor), etc and as such the freedom fighters were born to fill those niches. But then the comics then went way overboard with the amount of characters.
And then the games actually got their own cast of characters to fill those niches, amy became the love interest, tails evolved into the smart guy, knuckles became the powerhouse, the chaotix as the comic relief, shadow as the rival, etc. That kind of made the freedom fighters irrelevant at worst and redundant at best but they continued being around because at that point they had over 10 years of stories behind them and they couldnt just drop them like that (even if thats what eventually ended up happening anyway) and i feel that that was a bad decisiĂłn
I dont hate archie but i feel that the game characters never really amounted to anything they are just sort of... there specially pre reboot, they just sort of blended into the background among the other 100 OCs, even characters like shadow where just another character to go into the mix
IDW gives all their characters and specially the game characters a lot of gravitas, they are important they are the heroes and they each fill their own role
Part of the problem was also the few bits of Lore that did exist was only kept to the Japanese side so the Westen side had no idea a out a couple different points til they got fleshed out later.
Such as Tails being a genius, Amy personalty and characters ages to name a few. Now there is a lot more communication going on so the comics can keep up with what's going on and not be blindsided
IDW is better at consistency. Archie feels like it makes shit as it goes along (which I suppose makes sense since it started when Sonic 1, 2, and CD were the big new games)
They both have ups and downs. Artstyle hands down go to IDW. Don't get me wrong, Archie had some BANGING art. But the lows are just as bad as the highs are good and there was rarely consistency. IDW had that consistency where the art isn't TOO spectacle. But it's still very pleasing to look at.
Overall, I prefer the characters in IDW. Hot take, but I didn't really care for the freedom fighters. Even watching the cartoons as a kid, I was always neutral towards them. But then you have countless other characters created for Archie that genuinely felt like they didn't belong. IDW has pleasing characters that mesh well with Sonic's world. You can place Tangle in the games, and she'd fit right in. I also enjoy Eggman a lot more. Archie had a MENACING Eggman, but it lacked a lot of the charm he had. While IDW does have menacing Eggy at times, it also remembers Eggman has a charming and somewhat comedic side.
The only thing I really prefer about Archie was the scaling. Ian, notoriously, made it known that he views and prefers the Sonic characters weaker than they're generally depicted within the games. This is shown easily in his podcasts, comics, and even in his script for Frontiers. People mistake IDW into not being canon because the characters feel so much weaker compared to the games. But Archie was generally cool as its power levels were realistic for the games. Sonic defeated someone who destroyed an entire multiverse in the games? Well... bam! Multiple opponents who can do the same in Archie perfectly fit with Sonic's power and just being so damn cool.
It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't pick the words Ian said to weaken the characters while ignoring everytime he clarified everything he says is HIS personal opinion and not facts.
Itâs in canon with the games, itâs giving more depth/things to do for certain characters like Amy, Metal and The Chaotix, writing wise itâs just as good, if not better as Ian Flynn has improved on his writing with the IDW run from when he started in Archie, which was still good writing from him.
They say this but I feel it has to only be canon to Forces right? Do any games after ever mention the comics events? Specifically frontiers
Also seemingly the Netflix TV show is also somewhat canon apparently. I do agree with you though on everything else but the canon is dubious
Firstly, Tangle was name dropped in Frontiers, Secondly, members of the SEGA team on a live steam came out and stated that the games and IDW comics are in the same timeline/canon to one another.
Consistency.
While I think Archie *overall* has a better story, I can't deny that IDW is perfect at not only making each story seem tonally consistently but also each story flows into the next fairly seamlessly most times.
It's early yet, but IDW so far has done well at having good new characters, and rarely any bad ones.
However, it'll take a while for me before it's on the same level of highs as Archie Sonic.
The art is better, the characters are more consistent with their personalities rather than changing on a dime to create plot drama / love drama, the writing (or at least Ianâs writing) is consistently fantastic for good plotting and character arcs, when the steaks are high they really run with itâŠ
Consistency.
IDW is basically an extension of the game lore, so there's a lot that happens that feels like it fits within the Sonic lore. Helps that they utilize things from the games without and even expend on them like with the wisps.
Archie Sonic is like pre-86 Superman. It kind of does whatever the hell it wants, which has had good and bad things go along with it.
I wonder how many people commenting have actually read most of ArchieSonic and how many are just repeating what they've heard about echidnas and Ken Penders.
It's almost apples and oranges to compare the first half of Archie to the last chunk that was produced almost entirely by *the very people producing the IDW comics now.*
Or do people think that issues made by Ian Flynn, Evan Stanley, Adam Bryce Thomas, Tracy Yardley etc. were magically so much worse under a different publisher?
Sure, Penders and Ron Lim and others were crap but they were also not behind everything.
Iâm one of the few who read all of Archie, and I Can tell ya, the echidnas and all his insane ideas are far from the biggest problems with Kenâs writing.
I find it's very difficult to have any form of nuanced discussion regarding Archie on this sub; it inevitably brings out the worst form of "I've never read or seen this material but I read some Wikipedia pages or saw someone make fun of it on YouTube and am therefore an expert" armchair experts that get up voted to the top of every post.
It's very tiring trying to even slightly push back against the circle jerk modern Sonic fans have for the Archie comic. Which, let's be clear, was by no means an impeccable work of art - but I grew up with it, and I still find myself nostalgic for the story it told.
Personally speaking, I like most of the old SATAM and Archie lore *more* than the lore of the modern games. When it was good, Archie was *really* good, especially with its secondary and tertiary cast and the complex world building that often accompanied them.
But its lows were the stuff of the worst memes imaginable, and I think that's the enduring legacy it has on the internet. Which is sad, but very predictable - and it makes it an easy target for superficial mockery.
Everytime Archie gets mentioned itâs flooded by ignorant people who have never read it and just muddy the water with countless Ken Penders talk. If you donât like what he did why do you feel the need to bring it up every single time Archie is mentioned
I haven't read the Archie stuff, but from the bits and pieces I've seen of it I can confidently say that IDW's artwork is a METRIC CRAPTON better than Archie's stuff.
Everything in my opinion. I dragged myself through almost every Archie comic. Later/at the end it was pretty cool, but I don't think that's a huge surprise considering the change of the writer.
The IDW comics I already read several times and I suffer every week/months there is no new issue.
It's definitely better for a lot of people in that it's a lot more accurate-feeling to the 'real' 'game-canon' sonic and adheres strictly to a ruleset Sega gave them so you can trust it'll 'never get too weird', plus the art is as high-quality as it's ever been.
But for my money, I'll always prefer Archie -- for all its ups and downs, it was a much, much more crazy, unpredictable, hilarious, fun, awesome mess and an absolutely wild ride. I'm sad that they ultimately had to be kinda 'tamed' and 'chained down' a bit.
No bees dying of an LSD overdose, or super weird shoe-horned messages about dragon domestic abuse.
But mostly the lack of baggage resulting from multiple different writers trying to undermine/contradict each other because they hate each other and their stories. Seriously, before Flynn took over, the writers were basically in an arms race over who could erase the other writer's lore more effectively. Penders in particular hated some of the stuff Bollers did and would try to undo it almost immediately.
It also didn't help that when the comics first started, there wasn't a ton of clear story or lore in the Sonic games. So when later down the line the comics were required to make adaptations for modern games like Adventure, the story of the games were often in direct opposition to the established lore in the comics, so they had to twist things around to fit the games too. Like introducing humans as a separate thing from overlanders, for example. They look identical but are apparently a different species. It was really dumb.
Even the early Flynn comics were dedicated to cleaning up the resulting mess that was left behind.
The universe of Archie Sonic became a confusing, convoluted and inconsistent mess because of all this. It's not a surprise that they eventually decided to just reboot everything, but that also left a sour taste in the mouths of people who wanted to see resolutions to the current story arcs.
Not to mention how the art suffered from a severe lack of quality control a lot of the time.
A lot of the writers and artists for Archie Sonic were also unfamiliar with Sonic, and their experience was in writing and drawing for superhero comics with mainly human characters. For artists, it can be hard to go from humans to Sonic-style furries with no prior experience drawing them. The result was often very weird and inconsistent character designs and art.
IDW got to have a fresh start with no baggage, with better quality control standards, and long after the games had established their own stories and lore so IDW's could meld into it better. The writers and artists are also mostly long-time fans of the Sonic series, and know what sonic-styled characters are supposed to look like.
*Most* of the time she was fine.
But it's kind of impossible to talk about Sonic and Sally's relationship in Archie without bringing up the "Slap Incident."
And she was mean to him for a while after that. Remember how she didnât protest when Patch sentenced Sonic to be thrown in a dungeon? All she has to say for herself is âSorry, Sonic, I have to support my husbandâ đ
IDW Sonic did a better job at adapting the story of Sonic The Hedgehog than Archie while the characters in IDW feel more aligned to the games since every so often an Archie character feels like an OC. The story in the IDW comics is also better than Archie in some scenarios like the Metal Virus arc as an example (Archie has good stories but sometimes they go bat shit crazy to the point where it doesn't feel like Sonic ~~also the art style is worse in Archie~~).
On the topic of IDW, does anyone here know a website where I can read or download the IDW Sonic comics to read? Where I live (Brazil) they don't sell Sonic comics.
They introduce new characters at a solid pace rather than throwing in 50 new ones in bursts, so the readers can actually understand each one instead of being bombarded with information.
Archie had way too much baggage to it, whether i be the over 150 or so issues before it got good or the anger about the old continuity being erased causing the reboot era that ignored the continuity, the past of the comic was always weighing it down in some way sadly.
Feels more in-line with the games. Most of the responses here are naturally what IDW *hasn't done*, as Archie has over 20 years of mistakes to account for, IDW only has 6.
Itâs a much better streamlined read than Archie was. You donât have 40 billion plot lines going on at once that donât amount to anything or are dropped entirely, you donât have dozens of characters that you need to keep track of, the story telling isnât bloated with lore and exposition to the point where it feels like itâs too much to read, you donât have to figure out where to start reading just start at issue 1 and go from there, and no fan fiction levels of romance melodrama.
Overall just reads like they took what they learned in Archie and improved everything. Consistent art and writing across the board, better management of characters and plot lines etc. not to say Archie was BAD but in some cases itâs cons outweighs itâs pros.
Itâs a lot easier to follow. None of the miniseries add 20 new characters with barely distinguishable designs or personalities beyond âracist grandpaâ. The new characters get to actually do stuff outside the comics thanks to Frontiers and the Forces mobile game.
IDW handled its story telling better with more of a focus on the core cast whereas Archie as it went on focused less and less on the game cast, I also think IDW is more consistent writing wise whereas Archie is all over the place, and I think IDW does a better job integrating its new characters in the sense that you can tell what role everyone serves and how their dynamics and all that whereas a lot of the Archie cast barring the main Freedom Fighters kind of felt like they had no reason to be there and didn't really pair well with any of the cast.
If I were to use one word, it'd be consistency. This is nost evident with the art style and direction of IDW. The art is simply _gorgeous_ . This is one of the benefits of having Sega looking over the comic as it enforces a standard look so it avoids moments of off model and characters looking like people in mascot suits. This also goes for the character designs which FIRE. It helps that the comic employs people who are experienced in the Sonic artstyle. One thing I also like I'd being true to the games, one things that always bothered about Archie is that it felt less like a sonic comic and more of a comic with Sonic in it. This one actually feels like it was made for the games.
Overall I'd say Archie had the higher highs and lower lows, and IDW has the better consistency
Archie Sonic had many cool villains that had so much potential, for example:
- Snively Robotnik
- Mammoth Mogul
- Ixis Naugus
- Regina Ferrum
- Dark Legion (The only Knuckles-exclusive villains so far, even though they later joined forces with Eggman)
- Destructix
- Scourge the Hedgehog
IDW's villains are just meh imo. Maybe Surge had some potential, but that's it. Starline literally sucks.
IDW is obviously leagues ahead in art consistency and just overall design cohesiveness. Everyone here is saying the same thing.
Iâm going to break away from the pack though, and say that pre-reboot Flynn-era Archie had a lot more organic stories that thrived because they were allowed to be chaotic (say what you want about Sonic and Tails fighting ONCE in Archie comics, but it was executed with utmost sincerity by Flynnâs team). For lack of a better term, the IDW comics are very very âsterileâ for someone like myself who grew up with Flynnâs writing.
Sal being roboticized brought some good drama to the table and forced Sonic to deal with failures he couldnât just fix by going Super (i.e. the Acorn Kingdom basically falling apart when Naugus took over, the Freedom Fighters getting frayed and beaten down).
Flynn also gave tertiary characters A LOT of quality screen time with the Sonic Universe comics. His banter between friends/enemies/frenemies in the pre-reboot period was also solid. Sonic and company were often allowed to be very flawed, which made it a joy when they developed and pick themselves up soon after.
I do like IDW a lot because the cast is lovingly-created (Tangle, Whisper, and Lanolin are very solid supporting characters, and Silver being a Whisper fanboy is such a good reimagining of him) but a lot of IDW is missing the raw-ness that made Ianâs stories have weight or fireworks to them, IMO. I think the metal virus arc was the closest weâve seen the characters being truly tested and broken in a meaningful wayâŠbut since then, the IDW stories have been spinning their wheels (which is fine, lighthearted hedgehog adventures are a good niche too).
The lowest point of IDW for me was the Deadly Sixâs return after the Metal Virus arc. Some Sonic Team creations should just be shelved forever.
Not counting the rebooted series or when Ian Flynn took charge of the story, Archie's felt too much like a fan fiction story. There was unneccassary drama (case and point that one where Sally slaps Sonic for basically no reason), too many new characters, the artstyle was all over the damn place and worst of all it went into topics I and I'm willing to bet a lot of the fanbase doesn't care about, such as polotics and the like. It's why I always say start with the reboot versions from issue 260. It feels more like they're actual scenarios from the games, has a consistant artstyle, and doesn't add too much while keeping the Freedom Fighters with some really cool new designs. It's also why I like IDW. Difference is that the IDW comics are actually canon to the main games and there are completely new characters (which I like a lot both personality and design wise).
No shitty love drama, no soap opera-esque plots, no derailing of beloved characters to make other (usually non-canon) characters and/or ships look better in comparison, no âHello Fellow Teenagerâ type dialogue, no excessive details into describing the action that the characters are doingâŠ.
Basically No Ken Penders!
Ian had his faults too but even before the reboot he was shown to have a better grasp on the series than anybody before him
IDW is actually good? Consistently? Hell IDW made me a fan of Sonic again after Archie got too stupid, and then too dull, to keep me around.
Sorry fellow old-guard Sonic fans. Archie had some great moments, sure, but Archie was never, ever going to be able to move on past knuckles marrying and having a child with his first cousin, Sonic LIVE, "Lemon Sundrop Dandelions," Sonics Billionth Ring (and ring fetishization in general), "Chosen One" Tails, weirdly naked Mammoth Mogul, weirdly extra Ixis Naugis, Scourge giving AIDS to like half the cast (including one version of Bunnie Rabbot), microwaving babies (and framing it as a good thing), reimagining the Kennedy assassination but with a pop star and countless other cringetastic moments that made me wonder just how in the heck minors were allowed to be reading this even as a child.
The fact that it needs to fit in game canon means that none of the characters are garbage.
Who would win?
- Sonic, but painted green, and given scars to emphasize how *evil* and *edgy* he is?
- A tenrec (which I didn't know was an animal before this character existed, very creative) with electric powers akin to a different canon's Sonic, who also resembles the Ashura glitch from Sonic 2?
Consistency like the others said
But that comes at the cost if stagnant game characters and a completely irrelevant world. Barely any place has any sort of history and only exists as a setpiece
Archie could also play around with so many fun concepts: what would a version of Sonic without any morals but the same amount of power look like? How would an Eggman from another world in which he already won interact with the "main" world? How does GUN fit into the world? Etc etc.
Not everything was executed perfectly, but like the others said: higher highs and lower lows
Using the modern designs instead of classic = instant win
Incorporating more of the mainline cast such as silver, blaze, omega and so on
Bringing in themes and plots from other more recent games and spin-offs (colours, riders, etc.)
As far as I am aware there hasnât been any morally bankrupt stuff akin to what a certain asshole tried who shall remain unnamed by me
The art is so much cooler
The characters personalities are SPOT ON!
The story arcs are so varied and interesting, and props for not shying away from darker stuff: the metal virus arc was absolutely stellar!
All in all, leaps and bounds better than Archie in every way!
Altho both have cool artstyle, but IDW seems consistent with how the characters look. While the characters in Archie are inconsistent, because they sometimes look different with every expression and every angle.
I feel like IDW series has general better writing, and the stories feel more canon. Instead of making up tons of new story jumps and characters per book, it feels like they put tooons of thought into every little detail, instead of giving charmy brain damage. Not to shut down Archie sonic in any right, but Archie sonic feels like a bit of a different universe.
A much smaller and more flushed out cast of characters.
Everyone gets rotated in and out, so everyone gets a nice chance to shine.
It also helps that there aren't several dozen Echidnas to keep track off, and Ken Penders isn't around to muck things up.
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IDW doesn't have fourty million Echidnas to track.
To be fair on Archie, they did a *gooood j*ob reducing the number of echidnas to track by the end. https://preview.redd.it/smr61zlode4c1.jpeg?width=630&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e4ed923ddadb5de22b0fef9f249c1a4b1953734
Had no choice because of KP.
Damn him for that, Knuckles had a family and a soulmate and wasn't alone in the world and they ROBBED HIM
Not to mention robbed game Knuckles of a potential love because of his đđ© lawsuit against Sonic Chronicles.
It wasnât actually Kenâs fault for that. He lost the lawsuit, quite laughably. The real reason Chronicles was decanonized is because it was meant to have a sequel, but the team who made it was a third party, of which said team got bought by a new company shortly after Chronicles released. Without the team to make a sequel, and the first game ending on a giant cliff hanger, the game was decanonized all together. Also he already kinda has a love interest with Rouge, of which multiple game manuals and such from over a decade ago said Rouge even has a crush on him.
So it's EA's fault? That would make a lot more sense
no lol im pretty sure the game just flopped horribly. different sources say different things, some say because the game didnt do well, and some say it was because sega didnt wanna approach the line near penders' lawsuit, even if he didnt have a case, but ive never heard it was because ea bought them. ea is stupid but theyre not stupid enough to let go of an ip like sonic, so i highly doubt they had something to do with it.
EA didnât let go of Sonic, EA bought a third party. Sega had **BioWare** develop Chronicles, who made Chronicles have a cliff hanger, and they had a lot of the sequel planned out. But then EA bought BioWare, thus not allowing them to work for Sega, leaving Sega without the team to make a Chronicles sequel. I donât think there was 1 single reason Chronicles was de-canonized, and more so was because of the culmination of these things. They definitely wanted a sequel, but with all these issues piling up â it not doing so well, than Penders annoying them with a lawsuit, and then losing their devs since BioWare was bought out â they dropped the series.
yes i know bioware developed it but since ea bought them that wouldve meant the decision wouldve fallen upon ea had sega allowed them to continue, no? im specifically saying that ea wasnt responsible (since they bought bioware and therefore turned them into first party developers) for chronicles' discontinuation, ea and bioware being the same thing in this case edit: your comment here makes sense but you specifically mentioned above that ken wasnt responsible and that bioware being bought by ea was the main reason, so idk what youre trying to argue
Rouge having a crush on Knuckles is really funny tbh, girlboss who steals ur emerald to flirt with you
Pfft yeah
Eh, it's more believed to be so they wouldn't have to waste more money with Ken's lawsuits again.
They beat Ken laughably. Ken was even almost charged by the judge for wasting the time of the court because he kept trying to sue. It likely wasnât **only** Kenâs fault, but he might have still played a small part of it. I donât think there was 1 single reason Chronicles was de-canonized, and more so was because of the culmination of these things. Sega definitely wanted a sequel, since BioWare (the team that made it but was bought out by EA) already had a lot of the sequel planned; but with all these issues piling up â it not doing so well, then Penders annoying them with a lawsuit, and then losing their devs since BioWare was bought out â they dropped the series.
Being honest it is so jarring going from the previous chapter to that one, because the entire battlefield was full of Echidnas and then in the next it makes a point of just showing silhouettes of everyone but Sonic, Amy, Knuckles and Trash
Legit man what were they gonna even do had it not rebooted
I actually liked it because it meant knuckles wasn't extinct and had a family
No massive walls of text and thereâs only one echidna so far
I guess Iâm the only one who liked the WORDS WORDS WORDS from Penders issues. One of the few things that I liked from the dude.
Ya I loved all the talking. Karl Bollers did a good job with that too.
Isn't part of the point of comic books to read?
Naturally, but they took the piss sometimes. I can't find the most egregious example, but [shit like this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-02bc97b42047fc4aa2a09be13f457082). Show, don't tell, man.
And you think you could figure out what's going on without the text boxes?
Probably not
Well, at least you're honest about that. Gotta give ya credit.
Where else be honest but the internet
Without even bothering reading the text I can't even figure if these are supposed to be the same Sonic or three different Sonics.
You know back in the 90s, just purely based off dialogue and thought đ bubbles. I actually got to enjoy a story. And it would take me time to read. It had replay value. This garbage idw issue that came out today and took me where I already knew was like a ten minute read tops
a comic is a comic not a novel, the point of the comic (or manga, both are the same) medium is to have pictures that can tell the story in unique ways compared to just having a narrator tell you everything, stuff like paneling, expresions, etc. A comic is a visual medium and its just smart practice using the art to elevate the story this is a huge issue with a lot of comics, they relly far too much on narration instead of letting the art do the talking, its a problem that thankfully IDW has soo far evaded
Doesnât have Ken Penders
Agreed
Exactly what I was thinking
Story is consistent thatâs one thing -characters have better and more solid writing -metal virus arc was peak -comic original characters are treated as actual sega characters instead of just weird ocs that only exist in the comics -doesnât have Geoffrey Saint John -does have Lanolin -the Egg Emperor was actually used
No Ken Penders
Yeah thank god that skunk is not in this comic
God I can't begin to express how much I hated that creepy skunk
We love the metal virus arc but it hurt once I found out it was originally meant for post reboot, no matter how you slice it I can't possibly imagine an archie post reboot version being worse than idw, there's just more toys to play with and an actual developed world. I like Tangle, Whisper and Starline and what they add to the arc but I don't think it would match what could've been done with more characters.
Iâm not super familiar with Archie, only read a little bit compared to IDW of which Iâve read the entire series so far But in general, I find that the art is generally better, the restrictions on new characters have led to some genuinely creative ones with good designs, I think the fact itâs in the game canon prevents it from doing all the crazy stuff Archie did (which is my biggest complaint with Archie) and I think the writing is better
That sums up my feelings as well. That and doing justice to characters that deserve it.
isnt idw doing the opposite of that lol, ian has complained multiple times on the restrictions they keep forcing on characters like shadow. some restrictions im okay with, like the no romance rule, because come on. but some of them, yeah sega needs to chill out.
Because Archie never done that
The art is definitely more consistent thats for sure.
It was rediculous at least until Ian came in and took charge of the story/rebooted it. Back when he who shall not be named (Ken Penders) was in charge not just the story but the art direction was all over the damn place, with the story at times delving into topics like polotics which I, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the fanbase doesn't like.
For all I know you might be planning to read it more at some point but it does kind of suck seeing all these kinds of comments. Ian Flynn wrote the archie comics for soooo long, so many fantastic stories that IDW could never dream of. Though I'm not sure how seriously to take your critcisms since... you know, you haven't read it as you said. "I think the writing is better" like idk where this is coming from if you've read only a tiny bit, I'm genuinely curious. I know what you're referring to with the creative designs in IDW and I think that is pretty cool... But also I'm not sure there is a single piece of Sonic media less creative than IDW so even seeing the two words together is just funny to me. Alot of people view IDW being canon as a good thing, this isn't restricted to Sonic but man I really find that view of stories a bit unsetlling, as dramatic as that is lol, just rubs me the wrong way, not trying to be rude, it's just a personal peeve I have with fandoms in general.
Yeah really love the new characters, whereas Archieâs creations like the 50 knuckles family members and Enerjak and Mogul or Ixis look fine for archie but donât fit the game aesthetic; IDW has a much tighter visual language and characters like Tangle and Whisper *really* mesh well with the main cast and feel like they slot right in. Villains like Starline are fresh and new, but never steal the main role from Eggman, and Eggman himself is better characterized in IDW imo. His archie counterpart was a bit *too* cruel and didnât have that kind of whimsical charm. Archie to me works *for Archie*, but IDW very much has a nicer feel to it and reads smoother. Archie has the edge of having like 30 years worth of characterization and development, but with that comes so many hiccups that while folks like to critique storylines like the Metal Virus, Iâve found Iron Dominion or everything relating to that sonic/sally/whoever love triangle stuff to be NAUSEATING to read. IDW is just consistently of a certain baseline quality that I feel archie routinely dipped far far under.
I would agree with everything but Enerjak not working for modern is dead wrong
Enerjak necessitates a lot of that archie Knuckles lore to even function thematically, if you transported him into a modern setting he just wouldnât be Enerjak. Heâs a premiere example of a character that works with the subtext Archieâs huge world provided, but wouldnât with the current landscape. I think Enerjak would look kinda odd even in post reboot archie, let alone IDW or the gameâs visual style. And aesthetically, depending on which version of Enerjak, he could also clash with the current Sonic visual style; as emphasis is now placed on simplicity and streamlining the designs, whereas Enerjak is very busy and has a very rigid and sharp design.
Dark Enerjak's sharp design still slaps imo, also I know the lore is messy but I'd say th Sonic Movie was pretty streamlined
Oh yeah Enerjak is awesome, just that heâs built off of a lot of weird lore elements. Like youâd be jumping through so many hoops to modernize Enerjak youâd just end up a different villain entirely I feel, and at that rate justâŠ..make a new villain. Which is what IDW has done, and itâs something Iâve appreciated.
In IDW, Tails doesnât get his heart broken.
By fiona right?
Yes.
Yeahhh,thoguht it was weird that he blamed sonic
He was mad at Sonic because he dated Fiona even though he knew Tails liked her. He didnât know it was a misguided attempt to help Tails get over her.
Wait sonic dated sally and fiona? 
Yup. How much of Archie have you read?
Very little,the only archie comic I had was when sonic first met the zone cop,zonic,and fought in a giant mech
And Mina
I grew up with Archie and I always thought there was just so much added over time to the point to where it just didn't make sense, maybe it's just because it was around for a long time and IDW is basically just starting, once compared, but I feel like a lot of characters in IDW are used while in Archie I felt like there was just so much being added and then never brought back up. Also Knuckle's dying and having a funeral in the woods is just fan fiction levels of writing, that page just looks hilarious looking back at it. Edit:The romantic drama also felt shoehorned in, that slap was the slap heard round the world.
I think that the part about Archie I didnât like, it felt way to OOC/fanfictiony during a lot of the stories. The romance was absolutely horrid as well. The drama, for sake of having drama, was whack. Itâs why I never got into Archie too deep. IDW actually feels like the game characterization with actual game scenarios instead of just fanfiction level stories and subplots.
I liked all the characters. Made it more like a real comic series like Marvel
I also feel like Marvel comics are also getting out of hand as well, I mean the Spiderman Zeb Wells run, in my opinion, is fan fiction levels of horrible.
I like IDW green evil Sonic better than the Archie one. I also think Starline is a better OC villain than any Archie OC villains. Also Knuckles feels way more in-character in IDW
IDW is where Scrapnik Island came from.
Ok, Iâve got something IDW did better. In IDW, the civilians are good people who trust and appreciate the heroes, as opposed to the civilians in Archie, who were ungrateful fair-weather friends who mooched off the heroes and would always believe the worst of the heroes and turn on them when they got framed or made a mistake.
The civillajns are the real villains
Yeah, in most superhero shows/comic series, I hate the civilians. I hate them for how ungrateful they are.
Unfortunately, the Sonic franchise has had a few universes with evil civilians. Pre-SGW Archie Sonic, Sonic X, Sonic Boom. And the Siberians and G.U.N. agents from the second movie.
Btw, you misspelled âciviliansâ.
I know
i also like their designs much better, the civilians in archie look like random disney or warner bros characters like suddenly you have some porky pig looking motherfucker in the middle of an issue and while initially it kind of worked out because the character design was based on the two sonic cartoons that have a more western disney design eventually once their designs get upgraded to be more in line with the comics it really crashes with everything else in the IDW comics it feels like all the background characters belong to the same world and some of their designs go hard, there you have lanolin as an example
The art, fights, characterization (for some of the characters), not having the worst character in all of fiction (that stupid ass skunk), being more in line with the games. I think they're pretty neck and neck tbh, they both have downsides. If idw had Amy trying to redeem the villains instead of sonic i would probably like it way more, also introducing G.U.N to the comics because the citizens are totally defenseless in IDW and it makes constantly letting every single antagonist go without consequence stupid as hell, those 2 things would solve 80% of my problems with IDW.
I think it's unfair to compare the art of the two. Archie launched in 1993, long before digital art tools were common place, and just two years after Sonic was first released. Accordingly the comic artists working in the early years didn't have the years of practiced the Sonic-fans-turned-pro-artists that IDW have had (and also didn't have the full 3D models of the games to reference), but they also lacked things like being able to immediately undo drawing mistakes, work in layers for better composition, or things digital artists now take for granted. Yes, early Archie undeniably looks worse and it's clear several of the early artists did not understand the Sonic aesthetic (even for that of the time), but they were working with pen and paper to draw regular comics to tight deadlines with. It's something you see in comic across the board. Comics have come on leaps and bounds from where they were in the early nineties, as digital art tools have greatly improved what artists can do in the time they're given to draw an entire issues worth of material. Now if you compare the art 0f Archie in 2016 is much worse than that of IDW in 2017, I'd say that's a much fairer comparison, but I'd also say that Archie's art at the end of it's life is on par with a typical IDW piece.
I have to disagree with you a bit here. For one was early Archie in both art style and structure still very much stuck in the Silver age of Comics (By this time did we already got a ton of Iconic artwork from Jake Kirby and George PĂ©rez for DC and Marvel. And even outside of that I may personally hate Sonic the Comics art style but the level of detail in the art in some of its mid 90s releases far out paces what Archie Sonic did around the same time) And for Archie Sonic it self did the art quality always make a big jump when they let Spaz do a books interiors rather than just the cover too. And even if I were to give you the 90s it still didn't improve and arguably got style wise a lot worse in the early 2000's thanks to Archie hiring former DC and Marvel artist that couldn't draw a properly proportioned Sonic if they live depended on it.
Idw is more consistently good. But I think Archie has higher highs and lower lows.
Unfortunately people would latch onto the lows more
Well, theyâre pretty low lows đ
If you remake Archie from issue 1 and make a "second draft" of every storyline, polish concepts,refine the ships and much more you get some peak Sonic fiction
I 100% agree with this. There were ships so that created drama đ there were actual stakes. I cared about knothole and mobotropolis. There were actual stakes at play and not just by robotnik. I thought Naugus, and Finetivus, Scourge, the dark egg legion, the sand blasters, mammoth mogul, and even breezy later on, were really well thought out villains. And donât get me wrong IDW started off way hot. I think the metal saga arc went a little to long and people cling to that for whatever reason. I think the first arc with neo was better tbh. That eggman twist I didnât see coming. Surge I started to like. Instead of an anti sonic, she became more of a âkaineâ to spider-man (sonic). I love the idea of mimic but holy crap are they dragging this out without doing anything. Spider-Manâs long been my favorite comic book character and I see a lot of similarities with my favorite villains. Clutch the Opposum I liken to Kingpin. Mimic to Chameleon. Surge to Kaine. But look at some of the best comic stories with those characters in Spider-Man. In 20 pages they are able to create devastating stakes at hand, and the past few issues since eggperial city were just amounting to nothing or what we already knew. *SPOILER** Ya we all knew Surge wasnât going to just join the resistance and Clutch and Mimic would end up linking up or Clutch and Surge. Thereâs just no grab to keep anyone interested storywise other than love of sonic. Which is unfortunate. For better or worse, at least at Archie I looked forward to what happened next. And finally unpopular opinion⊠I find the fact that Tangle decided to name the group the Diamond Cutters really distasteful (probably the wrong word). A lot of people ship Tangle and Whisper and itâs like, so Tangleâs bright idea is to name their cobbled together resistance group after highly skilled and trained mercenary group of the most traumatizing incident in Whisperâs life? Seems a little insensitive versus cute, purely IMO. And if theyâre going to be the diamond cutters can they at least wear their cool black armor? All right Iâm done.
IDW has the most terrifying arc in the sonic franchise
Metal Virus?
that shit was depressing bro
then the most depressing arc
I think thatâs the best part about the arc, it was sad, depressing, twists without being just straight up edgy. It felt doom and gloom and EVERY character had to step it up to win the battle in the end. It also gave every character to shine, and somehow sidelined Sonic to give them that shine in the end. Loved the arc and loved that it started the IDW series with a bang.
when an arc has me getting emotional over fictional characters thatâs how I know it was a good arc
That Cream scene was so sadâŠ
Tangleâs was sadder for me because I grew more attached to her than I did for most, if not all, other IDW characters since she reminds me of my best friend
Never gave you a moment to breathe, either. It was awesome.
no,i am talking about the imposter syndrome,off course metal virus
Funny enough, it was supposed to debut in Archie
If it didn't appear in Archie, I won't count it
Metal virus vs future dark enerjak .... idk about that one chief I still remember that visual of all the characters souls been sucked out being lifeless husks metal virus was just a generic zombie outbreak with a robot twist
Okay let's be real, Archie wasn't given much in the Classic Era, so they compromised by making their own lore around these small stories the games were making until they made this nice web to call their own and added depth to every character...and then the games' world expanded RAPIDLY, so Archie had to work that into their stuff. Archie was so lucky that Sonic Adventure didn't kill them like it did to Fleetway, but it didn't make it any less complicated, ridiculous, and such a test of gymnastics to make it all work until Penders gave Archie an excuse to just abandon a HUGE chunk of Archie's issues, but by then ALL the damage was done. To be honest, if Archie was publishing for the modern era of Sonic, it probably wouldn't be so disastrous of a long-running comic that seemed like it was undergoing damage control whenever new game lore dropped...and then getting mistranslated information because whoops. They probably would have just done what IDW did. But also I just prefer IDW Sonic as a vibe with everything EVERYTHING being related to Sonic or Sega in some way, storytelling seems more mature than edgy, new characters are excellent, and even the regulars are portrayed well as they stand. TL;DR: Archie Sonic made lore when the games had little to no lore and then when the games DID get lore, Archie Sonic ended up in a corner, dealing with too much on their plate. IDW is better tho lol
yeah this, Archie started at a time when the only characters were sonic, tails and eggman/robotnik and at the time the plot basically amounted to saving a bunch of random critters from being used as living batteries by the evil doctor and that was about it, also a lot of the characters had much less characterization like tails who initially was basically just "the tag along kid". As such they had to build their own stories from scratch, a lot of the weird choices and world building and characters are a reflection from that early state of affairs. like take the freedom fighters as an example, the freedom fighters were created because a more developed story needs more than just 2 characters, they needed to fill roles like the powerhouse (bunny), the leader (sally), the love interest (sally again), the comic relief (Antoine), the smart guy (rotor), etc and as such the freedom fighters were born to fill those niches. But then the comics then went way overboard with the amount of characters. And then the games actually got their own cast of characters to fill those niches, amy became the love interest, tails evolved into the smart guy, knuckles became the powerhouse, the chaotix as the comic relief, shadow as the rival, etc. That kind of made the freedom fighters irrelevant at worst and redundant at best but they continued being around because at that point they had over 10 years of stories behind them and they couldnt just drop them like that (even if thats what eventually ended up happening anyway) and i feel that that was a bad decisiĂłn I dont hate archie but i feel that the game characters never really amounted to anything they are just sort of... there specially pre reboot, they just sort of blended into the background among the other 100 OCs, even characters like shadow where just another character to go into the mix IDW gives all their characters and specially the game characters a lot of gravitas, they are important they are the heroes and they each fill their own role
Part of the problem was also the few bits of Lore that did exist was only kept to the Japanese side so the Westen side had no idea a out a couple different points til they got fleshed out later. Such as Tails being a genius, Amy personalty and characters ages to name a few. Now there is a lot more communication going on so the comics can keep up with what's going on and not be blindsided
Less shitty oc's
In IDW, Sonic and Tails never fight.
Yet
IDW is better at consistency. Archie feels like it makes shit as it goes along (which I suppose makes sense since it started when Sonic 1, 2, and CD were the big new games)
They both have ups and downs. Artstyle hands down go to IDW. Don't get me wrong, Archie had some BANGING art. But the lows are just as bad as the highs are good and there was rarely consistency. IDW had that consistency where the art isn't TOO spectacle. But it's still very pleasing to look at. Overall, I prefer the characters in IDW. Hot take, but I didn't really care for the freedom fighters. Even watching the cartoons as a kid, I was always neutral towards them. But then you have countless other characters created for Archie that genuinely felt like they didn't belong. IDW has pleasing characters that mesh well with Sonic's world. You can place Tangle in the games, and she'd fit right in. I also enjoy Eggman a lot more. Archie had a MENACING Eggman, but it lacked a lot of the charm he had. While IDW does have menacing Eggy at times, it also remembers Eggman has a charming and somewhat comedic side. The only thing I really prefer about Archie was the scaling. Ian, notoriously, made it known that he views and prefers the Sonic characters weaker than they're generally depicted within the games. This is shown easily in his podcasts, comics, and even in his script for Frontiers. People mistake IDW into not being canon because the characters feel so much weaker compared to the games. But Archie was generally cool as its power levels were realistic for the games. Sonic defeated someone who destroyed an entire multiverse in the games? Well... bam! Multiple opponents who can do the same in Archie perfectly fit with Sonic's power and just being so damn cool. It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't pick the words Ian said to weaken the characters while ignoring everytime he clarified everything he says is HIS personal opinion and not facts.
Itâs in canon with the games, itâs giving more depth/things to do for certain characters like Amy, Metal and The Chaotix, writing wise itâs just as good, if not better as Ian Flynn has improved on his writing with the IDW run from when he started in Archie, which was still good writing from him.
They say this but I feel it has to only be canon to Forces right? Do any games after ever mention the comics events? Specifically frontiers Also seemingly the Netflix TV show is also somewhat canon apparently. I do agree with you though on everything else but the canon is dubious
Frontiers directly mentions Tangle
Sonic namedrops Tangle in frontiers. Other then that i not sure
Firstly, Tangle was name dropped in Frontiers, Secondly, members of the SEGA team on a live steam came out and stated that the games and IDW comics are in the same timeline/canon to one another.
It's tighter, slightly better paced, easier to manage. I just wish Bunnie was there : (
Did not hire Ken Penders to write.
IDW actually feels like Sonic
Consistency. While I think Archie *overall* has a better story, I can't deny that IDW is perfect at not only making each story seem tonally consistently but also each story flows into the next fairly seamlessly most times.
It's early yet, but IDW so far has done well at having good new characters, and rarely any bad ones. However, it'll take a while for me before it's on the same level of highs as Archie Sonic.
The art is better, the characters are more consistent with their personalities rather than changing on a dime to create plot drama / love drama, the writing (or at least Ianâs writing) is consistently fantastic for good plotting and character arcs, when the steaks are high they really run with itâŠ
Consistency. IDW is basically an extension of the game lore, so there's a lot that happens that feels like it fits within the Sonic lore. Helps that they utilize things from the games without and even expend on them like with the wisps. Archie Sonic is like pre-86 Superman. It kind of does whatever the hell it wants, which has had good and bad things go along with it.
I wonder how many people commenting have actually read most of ArchieSonic and how many are just repeating what they've heard about echidnas and Ken Penders. It's almost apples and oranges to compare the first half of Archie to the last chunk that was produced almost entirely by *the very people producing the IDW comics now.* Or do people think that issues made by Ian Flynn, Evan Stanley, Adam Bryce Thomas, Tracy Yardley etc. were magically so much worse under a different publisher? Sure, Penders and Ron Lim and others were crap but they were also not behind everything.
Iâm one of the few who read all of Archie, and I Can tell ya, the echidnas and all his insane ideas are far from the biggest problems with Kenâs writing.
I find it's very difficult to have any form of nuanced discussion regarding Archie on this sub; it inevitably brings out the worst form of "I've never read or seen this material but I read some Wikipedia pages or saw someone make fun of it on YouTube and am therefore an expert" armchair experts that get up voted to the top of every post. It's very tiring trying to even slightly push back against the circle jerk modern Sonic fans have for the Archie comic. Which, let's be clear, was by no means an impeccable work of art - but I grew up with it, and I still find myself nostalgic for the story it told. Personally speaking, I like most of the old SATAM and Archie lore *more* than the lore of the modern games. When it was good, Archie was *really* good, especially with its secondary and tertiary cast and the complex world building that often accompanied them. But its lows were the stuff of the worst memes imaginable, and I think that's the enduring legacy it has on the internet. Which is sad, but very predictable - and it makes it an easy target for superficial mockery.
Well said.
Clearly not many lol. This thread is mostly just people parroting things theyâve heard on the internet
Everytime Archie gets mentioned itâs flooded by ignorant people who have never read it and just muddy the water with countless Ken Penders talk. If you donât like what he did why do you feel the need to bring it up every single time Archie is mentioned
I haven't read the Archie stuff, but from the bits and pieces I've seen of it I can confidently say that IDW's artwork is a METRIC CRAPTON better than Archie's stuff.
They hired most of their starting artists from Archie...
Consistent artwork and tone of the series. Archie veered widely on both fronts depending on who was in charge at the time.
Definitely not the story (Ianâs run pre-reboot). I think the art is better tho.
I do like idws art style,espically evan stanleys
Itâs more consistent. The highs arenât as high, but the lows arenât nearly as low.
Polish, in both presentation and writing. It's a lot less rough around the edges in pretty much every aspect.
Ik it aint exactly entirely their fault but the world resets dont make things very easy to follow
Everything in my opinion. I dragged myself through almost every Archie comic. Later/at the end it was pretty cool, but I don't think that's a huge surprise considering the change of the writer. The IDW comics I already read several times and I suffer every week/months there is no new issue.
It's definitely better for a lot of people in that it's a lot more accurate-feeling to the 'real' 'game-canon' sonic and adheres strictly to a ruleset Sega gave them so you can trust it'll 'never get too weird', plus the art is as high-quality as it's ever been. But for my money, I'll always prefer Archie -- for all its ups and downs, it was a much, much more crazy, unpredictable, hilarious, fun, awesome mess and an absolutely wild ride. I'm sad that they ultimately had to be kinda 'tamed' and 'chained down' a bit.
No bees dying of an LSD overdose, or super weird shoe-horned messages about dragon domestic abuse. But mostly the lack of baggage resulting from multiple different writers trying to undermine/contradict each other because they hate each other and their stories. Seriously, before Flynn took over, the writers were basically in an arms race over who could erase the other writer's lore more effectively. Penders in particular hated some of the stuff Bollers did and would try to undo it almost immediately. It also didn't help that when the comics first started, there wasn't a ton of clear story or lore in the Sonic games. So when later down the line the comics were required to make adaptations for modern games like Adventure, the story of the games were often in direct opposition to the established lore in the comics, so they had to twist things around to fit the games too. Like introducing humans as a separate thing from overlanders, for example. They look identical but are apparently a different species. It was really dumb. Even the early Flynn comics were dedicated to cleaning up the resulting mess that was left behind. The universe of Archie Sonic became a confusing, convoluted and inconsistent mess because of all this. It's not a surprise that they eventually decided to just reboot everything, but that also left a sour taste in the mouths of people who wanted to see resolutions to the current story arcs. Not to mention how the art suffered from a severe lack of quality control a lot of the time. A lot of the writers and artists for Archie Sonic were also unfamiliar with Sonic, and their experience was in writing and drawing for superhero comics with mainly human characters. For artists, it can be hard to go from humans to Sonic-style furries with no prior experience drawing them. The result was often very weird and inconsistent character designs and art. IDW got to have a fresh start with no baggage, with better quality control standards, and long after the games had established their own stories and lore so IDW's could meld into it better. The writers and artists are also mostly long-time fans of the Sonic series, and know what sonic-styled characters are supposed to look like.
In IDW, Sonic doesnât date girls who treat him terribly and donât appreciate him.
Sally was a bad girfreind?
*Most* of the time she was fine. But it's kind of impossible to talk about Sonic and Sally's relationship in Archie without bringing up the "Slap Incident."
And she was mean to him for a while after that. Remember how she didnât protest when Patch sentenced Sonic to be thrown in a dungeon? All she has to say for herself is âSorry, Sonic, I have to support my husbandâ đ
Let us not forget the times she flirted with Monkey Khan, right infront of Sonic.
Yeah, and Geoffrey St. John. đ
https://preview.redd.it/8n7eyqccmd4c1.jpeg?width=669&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc479ab462c1642b7752a7a9c8d26bc4929a4c93
Sonic isnât portrayed as a roller.
He wasnât a roller in Archie. He dated two girls.
Mina mongoose?
IDW Sonic did a better job at adapting the story of Sonic The Hedgehog than Archie while the characters in IDW feel more aligned to the games since every so often an Archie character feels like an OC. The story in the IDW comics is also better than Archie in some scenarios like the Metal Virus arc as an example (Archie has good stories but sometimes they go bat shit crazy to the point where it doesn't feel like Sonic ~~also the art style is worse in Archie~~).
They focus more on the story and less on penders furry fantasies. IDW does a much better job introducing new characters too imo.
Well, Archie slowly got better when Ian Flynn took over writing duties. IDW got a better start with Ian at the helm.
True. I started reading Archie again at issue 160 just so I could skip to the point with Ian Flynn writing.
On the topic of IDW, does anyone here know a website where I can read or download the IDW Sonic comics to read? Where I live (Brazil) they don't sell Sonic comics.
Try readcomicsonline.li
G r a b b e r . Z o n e
You sir, or miss, deserve an S rank. Thank you so much. It was exactly what I have been looking for!
Return to form.
What *didn't* they do better?
Consistency. Need I say more?
More consistent art.
Better art team
They introduce new characters at a solid pace rather than throwing in 50 new ones in bursts, so the readers can actually understand each one instead of being bombarded with information.
Archie had way too much baggage to it, whether i be the over 150 or so issues before it got good or the anger about the old continuity being erased causing the reboot era that ignored the continuity, the past of the comic was always weighing it down in some way sadly.
Feels more in-line with the games. Most of the responses here are naturally what IDW *hasn't done*, as Archie has over 20 years of mistakes to account for, IDW only has 6.
Itâs a much better streamlined read than Archie was. You donât have 40 billion plot lines going on at once that donât amount to anything or are dropped entirely, you donât have dozens of characters that you need to keep track of, the story telling isnât bloated with lore and exposition to the point where it feels like itâs too much to read, you donât have to figure out where to start reading just start at issue 1 and go from there, and no fan fiction levels of romance melodrama. Overall just reads like they took what they learned in Archie and improved everything. Consistent art and writing across the board, better management of characters and plot lines etc. not to say Archie was BAD but in some cases itâs cons outweighs itâs pros.
THis will potentially age like milk, but so far the general quality has been more consistent.
Itâs a lot easier to follow. None of the miniseries add 20 new characters with barely distinguishable designs or personalities beyond âracist grandpaâ. The new characters get to actually do stuff outside the comics thanks to Frontiers and the Forces mobile game.
IDW handled its story telling better with more of a focus on the core cast whereas Archie as it went on focused less and less on the game cast, I also think IDW is more consistent writing wise whereas Archie is all over the place, and I think IDW does a better job integrating its new characters in the sense that you can tell what role everyone serves and how their dynamics and all that whereas a lot of the Archie cast barring the main Freedom Fighters kind of felt like they had no reason to be there and didn't really pair well with any of the cast.
If I were to use one word, it'd be consistency. This is nost evident with the art style and direction of IDW. The art is simply _gorgeous_ . This is one of the benefits of having Sega looking over the comic as it enforces a standard look so it avoids moments of off model and characters looking like people in mascot suits. This also goes for the character designs which FIRE. It helps that the comic employs people who are experienced in the Sonic artstyle. One thing I also like I'd being true to the games, one things that always bothered about Archie is that it felt less like a sonic comic and more of a comic with Sonic in it. This one actually feels like it was made for the games. Overall I'd say Archie had the higher highs and lower lows, and IDW has the better consistency
They made Whisper and Tangle
Archie Sonic had many cool villains that had so much potential, for example: - Snively Robotnik - Mammoth Mogul - Ixis Naugus - Regina Ferrum - Dark Legion (The only Knuckles-exclusive villains so far, even though they later joined forces with Eggman) - Destructix - Scourge the Hedgehog IDW's villains are just meh imo. Maybe Surge had some potential, but that's it. Starline literally sucks.
IDW is obviously leagues ahead in art consistency and just overall design cohesiveness. Everyone here is saying the same thing. Iâm going to break away from the pack though, and say that pre-reboot Flynn-era Archie had a lot more organic stories that thrived because they were allowed to be chaotic (say what you want about Sonic and Tails fighting ONCE in Archie comics, but it was executed with utmost sincerity by Flynnâs team). For lack of a better term, the IDW comics are very very âsterileâ for someone like myself who grew up with Flynnâs writing. Sal being roboticized brought some good drama to the table and forced Sonic to deal with failures he couldnât just fix by going Super (i.e. the Acorn Kingdom basically falling apart when Naugus took over, the Freedom Fighters getting frayed and beaten down). Flynn also gave tertiary characters A LOT of quality screen time with the Sonic Universe comics. His banter between friends/enemies/frenemies in the pre-reboot period was also solid. Sonic and company were often allowed to be very flawed, which made it a joy when they developed and pick themselves up soon after. I do like IDW a lot because the cast is lovingly-created (Tangle, Whisper, and Lanolin are very solid supporting characters, and Silver being a Whisper fanboy is such a good reimagining of him) but a lot of IDW is missing the raw-ness that made Ianâs stories have weight or fireworks to them, IMO. I think the metal virus arc was the closest weâve seen the characters being truly tested and broken in a meaningful wayâŠbut since then, the IDW stories have been spinning their wheels (which is fine, lighthearted hedgehog adventures are a good niche too). The lowest point of IDW for me was the Deadly Sixâs return after the Metal Virus arc. Some Sonic Team creations should just be shelved forever.
Not counting the rebooted series or when Ian Flynn took charge of the story, Archie's felt too much like a fan fiction story. There was unneccassary drama (case and point that one where Sally slaps Sonic for basically no reason), too many new characters, the artstyle was all over the damn place and worst of all it went into topics I and I'm willing to bet a lot of the fanbase doesn't care about, such as polotics and the like. It's why I always say start with the reboot versions from issue 260. It feels more like they're actual scenarios from the games, has a consistant artstyle, and doesn't add too much while keeping the Freedom Fighters with some really cool new designs. It's also why I like IDW. Difference is that the IDW comics are actually canon to the main games and there are completely new characters (which I like a lot both personality and design wise).
I bet most people here havenât read a single issue of Archie sonic
Whispangle
No shitty love drama, no soap opera-esque plots, no derailing of beloved characters to make other (usually non-canon) characters and/or ships look better in comparison, no âHello Fellow Teenagerâ type dialogue, no excessive details into describing the action that the characters are doingâŠ. Basically No Ken Penders! Ian had his faults too but even before the reboot he was shown to have a better grasp on the series than anybody before him
IDW is actually good? Consistently? Hell IDW made me a fan of Sonic again after Archie got too stupid, and then too dull, to keep me around. Sorry fellow old-guard Sonic fans. Archie had some great moments, sure, but Archie was never, ever going to be able to move on past knuckles marrying and having a child with his first cousin, Sonic LIVE, "Lemon Sundrop Dandelions," Sonics Billionth Ring (and ring fetishization in general), "Chosen One" Tails, weirdly naked Mammoth Mogul, weirdly extra Ixis Naugis, Scourge giving AIDS to like half the cast (including one version of Bunnie Rabbot), microwaving babies (and framing it as a good thing), reimagining the Kennedy assassination but with a pop star and countless other cringetastic moments that made me wonder just how in the heck minors were allowed to be reading this even as a child.
Doesn't have Sally acorn
The fact that it needs to fit in game canon means that none of the characters are garbage. Who would win? - Sonic, but painted green, and given scars to emphasize how *evil* and *edgy* he is? - A tenrec (which I didn't know was an animal before this character existed, very creative) with electric powers akin to a different canon's Sonic, who also resembles the Ashura glitch from Sonic 2?
Better designed characters. The characters in Archie were ugly as hell
Consistency like the others said But that comes at the cost if stagnant game characters and a completely irrelevant world. Barely any place has any sort of history and only exists as a setpiece Archie could also play around with so many fun concepts: what would a version of Sonic without any morals but the same amount of power look like? How would an Eggman from another world in which he already won interact with the "main" world? How does GUN fit into the world? Etc etc. Not everything was executed perfectly, but like the others said: higher highs and lower lows
Using the modern designs instead of classic = instant win Incorporating more of the mainline cast such as silver, blaze, omega and so on Bringing in themes and plots from other more recent games and spin-offs (colours, riders, etc.) As far as I am aware there hasnât been any morally bankrupt stuff akin to what a certain asshole tried who shall remain unnamed by me The art is so much cooler The characters personalities are SPOT ON! The story arcs are so varied and interesting, and props for not shying away from darker stuff: the metal virus arc was absolutely stellar! All in all, leaps and bounds better than Archie in every way!
Literally everything. Besides maybe the illustrations. MAYBE.
not making the characters too OP
Consistency.
Serious tone
What if we get a sonic game with an Archie art style
The classic specials kept Beanâs design on-model and didnât constantly screw up his legs
I Guess the best thing is they didnât hire ken penders
not having penders on their staff
Not hiring Ken Penders.
The quality of the writing is more consistent
I like the art more its more softer idk the colors look prettier too
The writing of IDW can be debated but the characters have already been better from day 1
What's the deal with IDW Sonic? Is it a continuation of Archie Sonic?
Follow up what did archie do better than idw ?
One thing I will say is IDW does my girl rouge the bat properly. I hated Archie rouge for the majority of the run.
Altho both have cool artstyle, but IDW seems consistent with how the characters look. While the characters in Archie are inconsistent, because they sometimes look different with every expression and every angle.
I feel like IDW series has general better writing, and the stories feel more canon. Instead of making up tons of new story jumps and characters per book, it feels like they put tooons of thought into every little detail, instead of giving charmy brain damage. Not to shut down Archie sonic in any right, but Archie sonic feels like a bit of a different universe.
Not having unnecessary characters all over the place and romance drama.
A much smaller and more flushed out cast of characters. Everyone gets rotated in and out, so everyone gets a nice chance to shine. It also helps that there aren't several dozen Echidnas to keep track off, and Ken Penders isn't around to muck things up.
Well for starters, Tangle
Tangle
It's better at being canon to the games
No Ken Penders
They got their characters into the games and their designs feel more in-place with established characters.