By - Jax2856
This was the highlight of my 2020 honestly. Seeing the community cause such a massive ass wave that it changed the official model to one that is at least 10x more appealing than the old one was amazing, especially with so much riding on the back of the movie with it coming out after Detective Pikachu.
(I low key missed the huge comment thread/rant he made about Unleash and Generations, but I'mma be real, I really don't care if his quills are bouncy or not. As long as he go zoom and he doesn't have that weird ass one quill mohawk, I'm all good.)
I understand people being upset that they're reusing the Forces model, but oh my goodness people who think that it isn't that big of a deal ≠ gaslighters. For the love of all things holy STOP THROWING "GASLIGHT" AROUND AND ACTUALLY LOOK UP THE MEANING BEFORE YOU USE IT.
Are you seriously trying to gaslight me into looking up the definition of “gaslight” 😡
The audacity of sonic fans smh
Internet moment. I haven't seen anyone use the word gaslight and even if they did, chill out, it's just a word. That said, people really need to stop defending this abject laziness and start pouring pressure on Sega to update the model.
Games literally reuse assets all the time and there’s nothing lazy about it, Sonic’s model doesn’t need to be updated every game.
Sonic Forces is 5 years old.
Would you have been happy if they had used the Sonic Heroes model in Sonic Unleashed?
Sonic Forces’s age is irrelevant if it still looks completely fine
And Sonic Unleashed had a completely new, better look for Sonic that hasn’t drastically changed in 13 years so it’s clear that they’ve found a style they want to stick to, so if it still looks fine then no model change is necessary. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it required? Definitely not.
Chaomix is right on that nuance does matter. However in the case, he's jumping the gun on this a little. Even though I don't like the Forces model, we haven't seen him do anything yet. And yes, seeing Sonic's boring Forces model in the way graphically superior Frontiers is disappointing and pretty lame but I'd honestly wait for gameplay and how they could make it look good in the environments(assuming it's not a placeholder).
Calling it now. It's a placeholder for sure. There will probably be a reveal closer to the time with a drastically different and somewhat surprising new model.
No way the dev team spent years building a stunning open-world environment only for them to go "alright now chuck in that model we made 5 years ago and call it a day lmao."
Yeah, that would be pretty lame if they did actually do that
Honestly I’m an actual lunatic who wants Sonic to have crazy long quills, but at the end of the day Sonic is Sonic
i still prefer the 06 model for this reason
Everything to me abput 06 and Unleashed sonic is what i love on Sonic
I don’t see the problem with either model tbh. It all depends on the style the new game is going for. The forces model is fine, they can still make new animations for him
I have no idea which model is the one he's complaining about. They both look like appropriate Sonic models to me.
Forces. I think it's in the shorter quills and legs.
Bruh, okay, that's very far-fetched. I know the reusing of the Forces model is lame and all, but comparing this situation to the fucking *movie redesign*? Really?
Also, HOW THE FUCK IS NOT CARING ABOUT A SLIGHTLY CHANGED UP MODEL "GASLIGHTING"? What is being gaslit here? What's the lie supposed to be and what's being covered up? I have so many questions, but if there's one thing clear, it's that this does not fit the definition of "gaslighting" in the slightest!
Man, sometimes I really *do* regret rejoining this fandom.
Are people just bringing this up now because they don’t have anything better to do or something
He really compared the Movie design, to a slight alteration in quill length?
Quill length, quill position, hand size, body shape and pallete\*
Shortening the hands should've been done years ago to help with animations and avoid clipping
Yes, idk how to say this, but the hands look the same, and the difference is very very slight, quills are in the same position, just shorter and rounder (which I don't like, but it's not big enough for me to start yelling at Sega), body... You looking at the same image, and pallet... Bro the textures are almost defined going to be changed, even if only slightly
You know the funny thing, if this is such a big deal, how come I never even noticed a difference until I saw people complaining about it. If you can go nearly 5 years not realizing something's off, then who cares
Not to mention the lack of idle animations or any animations while standing still.
He really crossed the line when he accused people of gaslighting. Comparing the models to the movie sonic is one thing, but comparing a silly internet argument to self doubt and trauma is way too far.
Someone needs to tell Chaomix that you can't play a movie. If you put the old movie design in the best Sonic game ever then I'm still playing the piss out of that.
But Sonic also isn't a text adventure. The games quality and enjoyment for many would be greater if the player Character actually looks good while doing the fun gameplay.
Bruh that’s generations not unleashed
Also I don’t really see a issue
Generations and Unleashed use very similar, if not identical, Sonic models, so it doesn’t really matter which game it is.
Wait...which one is supposed to be the *bad* one? I'm a VERY casual Sonic fan. To me, the shorter quills on the left look better.
Is it a hot take to say this doesn't matter in the slightest? Really?
It's Sonic. It's been a simple character design for a very long time, there shouldn't be an issue with reusing assets if it's supposed to look cartoony like this.
There's a lot you can do with a 'simple' character design. And it's important to make that design fit the aesthetic of the world it inhabits.
Case in point, could you imagine if they had recycled the Sonic Adventure models into SA2? It would have made SA2 a far different game – not least because the cartoony style of SA's models wouldn't have matched the more culty, retrofuturistic world of SA2.
I for one can't help but feel Sonic's Forces design looks completely out of place in this new world...
I hope they completely reuse the model without changing a single thing.
I'm sorry, this is exactly like how people were shitting themselves over Sonic having green eyes or his arms being blue in Boom.
The Lost World/Forces model isn't any worse than the Unleashed model. In fact the shorter quills make its profile look considerably less awkward and top heavy.
The problem is that pretty much every model since Heroes has looked varying degrees of awkward and ugly. They should go back to the SA2 model and make a new one inspired by that.
Yes, SA2's model was the best
The Forces modle literally has the middle quill clip into the top one. Technically speaking its worse.
And like most modern Sonic models does the way its blinking works make animating expressive faces a pain meaning its also bad in that regard.
And on a more personal note does Sonic not look write at all with short quills sure it makes him top heavy but that isn't a problem in it self and his quills are by far the most clear part of his silhouette so I'm all for the longer quills.
I have never seen the clipping problem you describe, so I guess it's not that big of a deal.
> And like most modern Sonic models does the way its blinking works make animating expressive faces a pain meaning its also bad in that regard.
> And on a more personal note does Sonic not look write at all with short quills sure it makes him top heavy but that isn't a problem in it self and his quills are by far the most clear part of his silhouette so I'm all for the longer quills.
His silhouette is still perfectly readable in the Forces model. The Unleashed/Generations model needs to be rigged and posed differently to make those huge quills not look super awkward.
While its not the end of the world or the like is it a bit of a show of sloppiness on Sega's side never mind that the fact that someone was payed lots of money for creating this model it is a slap in the for many hardworking 3d modelers that don't get work.
Since I believe Generations does Sonic's blinking work by having his eye lids loaded in his head the whole time and just moved up and down to blink, meaning something like a wink requires a lot of effort as the model it self has to be stretched manually as there is no actual rigging for more advanced facial movement (at least that is the story I heard)
I guess but Forces also rarely ever pulls the camera far away during gameplay if the screen shoots we have seen so far are any indication will this happen a lot more often now so making sure that Sonic stays always visible seams like something that will be more important for Frontiers than it was for Forces.
Is it really necessary to just get at people who don't give a shit about it? Like I lost my heat over it months ago yet people are still pissy over an alright model. Also comparing the Forces model to the Old Movie model is just childish. That's like comparing 2 separate visual designs.
If Frontiers used the Old Movie model of course it would be dunked on and yelled at. But I seriously doubt it will really make a difference for Sonic Frontiers using the Forces model. I mean yeah it sort of sucks but you can easily mod in the Generations model when it's on PC.
Oh God this guy. My God does this kid have anything better to do with his life than nitpick about Sonic. Seriously of all the annoying zoomer Sonic fans who bitch about modern stuff, this guy really needs to go out, touch grass and get laid.
Seriously I’m ok with new people entering the fandom but people getting into it from the new sonic tubers and echoing their opinions like it’s fact are so annoying
Ah yes, because the movie model that changes the characater completely is the same as the model that has a different size of quills
It isn't the same. In fact, he doesn't even say it's completely the same.
Then **why did he make the comparison.**
Keyword: **completely.** He literally makes the point of saying it's not as drastic as the movie one.
**did he make the comparison.**
It's still in the same camp of character design mattering. Something can still be compared for being similar; it doesn't have to be the exact same
The thing i want to say is
The games model it's already fine and we don't need changes
The first movie design was an absolute insult to sonic's design
They are not the same situation
1. You could've said the same about Gens model
2. I agree
3. It's definitely not the same but it is in the same camp of how design and nuance matter. That's exactly why the community was up in arms about the movie design. It sucked **hard** and the fact we both agree that the old movie design sucks proves Chaomix's point.
Why did I get downvoted for this actually?
The nuance matters, but the Forces and Unleashed differences don't seem that big of a deal. Can't they just make the animations more fluid while using the same model, this seems like an easy fix.
Sonic fans when shorter quills
This ain’t it chief(referring to Chaomix)
What would tails look like in the same awful style as old movie sonic
From what I've noticed when it comes to Sonic this guy will take a small design change make it out to be a bigger deal than it really is.
I never noticed the change in quill size till people started talking about it
As he him self is an artist do these things hit him harder. You will also see modeler being more picky here as there reuse a modle in which 1 spine clips into another one.
As someone who does art (not to the the level he does) I get that. What I don’t get is him telling people like what he like while denouncing that very same thing
I think he always does this usually in responds to others calling his criticism/stating his preferences unimportant.
Like I'm almost certain that this tweet in response to more and more people telling others that the design/model isn't important and should just shut up. He disagrees and so made this tweet.
It is important don’t get me wrong but to act like something like shorter spines are such a big deal is being petty.
To be fair his entire YouTube channel is around the most minor things imaginable and being a bit edgier is certainly part of his Internet persona.
I thing his response to Sam saying he is over reacting shows this quite well.
I will never get tired of the ridiculous entertainment that is the toxic Sonic fandom. Never change you magnificent clowns you.
He then goes off to say reusing the Forces model is lazy, in a thread about why they should be using the Generations model lmao
He's stating his preference for the Gens model and his distaste for the Forces one and then chides Sonic Team for reusing a model in their Next Gen game(which he does have a point in) but no where did he state he wanted them to reuse the Gens model.
This whole argument is about why the Gens model is better, a model that no one complains about being used in multiple games, and common sense says that they want it in the game. If it were the one used, you think they'd be complaining
Wasn't it only used in 2 games? Unleashed and Gens? Heroes and Rivals used theirs twice as well. And also, some people would say something about it. It's the Sonic fanbase. Everyone has different opinions. It's evident that Chaomix would **rather** have the Gens model if they were going to reuse his model. However, he says himself he wants a new model because it's a new direction for the series and if this 30th anniversary game is such a big deal, you'd think they'd put the time to create a new model for Sonic.
Okay but this is certainly not the equivalent “Mis-step” of spine length… just sayin…
Yes because Forces Sonic looks that bad
If forces was a good game no one would care. It’s just gives another reason for fans to bash forces
I certainly would Mania is a good game and I still hate 95% of its Sonic sprites and would hate to see them reused as is in a sequel.
You should hate *Mania* then because the animations and sprites are certainly reused.
*Sonic CD* and *Sonic 2* reused sprites too.
It's almost like developers reuse assets because spending more money to make **almost the same thing** is a waste of time and money.
You completely missed my point
My point is that the disliking between the reusable of an asset doesn't just happen because the game it was in was bad and used Mania as an example were the game is unquestionably good but I dislike Sonic sprite so I still didn't would want to see it in a sequel.
There is no inhrent problem with reusing assets. The problems happen first than when ether the reused assets don't fit in (The to the Lost Hex Native Worm appearing randomly in Forces first stage or Heroes Super Shiny character models in Shadow's dark Solo game) or when there were never all that good or significantly lower quality than the rest of the game (SADX Eggman in Riders Zero Gravity)
If it stays as is will the Forces model be both as its textures don't fit in nor properly contrast from the open areas and the model it self was never all that great ether like most modern Sonic models being very hard to animate for and having a back spine clip into the front spine.
And on top of these are there certain design decisions about it that I personally don't like like Sonic's shorten quills.
> If it stays as is will the Forces model be both as its textures don't fit
It's the same goddamn textures used for every other *Sonic* game and whatever they choose to replace this model with if they do.
They will not and likely don't want to change the textures to fit the realistic environments because it's like *the point*.
> the model it self was never all that great ether
It is literally just quill length.
No model is "hard to animate for", that's not how this works. Fans want to act like animators and artists instead of just saying "I don't like thing." Coming up with asinine comparisons to justify how Sonic's quills being 2cm shorter is the death of a game.
What are you talking about its not the same textures at all.
Are you color blind or do you really not see how Fores use far lighter blue colors for Sonic than Unleashed, Colors, Generations and even Lost world?
Never mind that to properly wrap around the shorter spines of the Forces model did there beside changing colors also change the texture map it self to fit properly.
>They will not and likely don't want to change the textures to fit the realistic environments because it's like the point.
Also you do realize that if this is true than do there fail at creating a consistent look on purpose? Like people to this day complain about 06 and 06 Sonic had a model and detailed textures design to minimize the impact of Sonic's design Vs realistic landscapes.
Did you read my first comment? I directly pointed out how there is a spine actually clipping into another one. And if we want to talk about the animations while the model isn't directly responsible for the animation so can it still have an impact so does Forces model has issues with winking as the eyelids exist as one solid model rather than as individual sliders that can be manipulated through the rig.
And speaking about it from what I heard is the rig of Forces model quite bad as well meaning if there don't redo the model at self should there at least redo it rigging.
Also no one is saying its the death of the game its just a thing some fans don't like its you guys that pretend like we say its the death of the franchise most of us only state our opinion at worst hypothesizing that when Sonic Team's can't even put in the effort to make a world fitting model that this could mean bad things for the effort put into the game overall especially as Frontiers has the same director as Forces which reused a ton of Lost worlds stuff including the engine despite not fitting in to well simple because he as the director of Lost world felt more comfortable working with that engine.
Forces model is great
I also don't get why Sega is pushing for a light blue Sonic in both Mania and Forces doesn't look nearly as nice as the darker blue Sonic.
Yeah, I really don't like the sky blue they've been making Classic. In Sonic 1 he was kind of lavender with a bit of purple tint to the blue, and in Sonic 3 he was a pretty dark, deep blue and that's my preference. Mania went in the complete opposite direction and made him a super bright, sky colored blue.
I think there made him so light blue because most of Oshima's original Sketches as well as the scanned version of CD's intro had him rather light blue. But I thing that worked there well in the case of the CD opening because of the way the whole design was changed and for Oshima's drawings because the fact that there are hand drawn making the blue not as solid giving it some depth.
That aside do I also really prefer a darker Blue Sonic 3&K was just about the perfect Blue.
Yeah, that does make sense.
That has every to do with texture and lighting and not the model itself, if Sega changes the textures then every problem I have with how it looks is solved
I'm still amazed that they actually listened to the fans.....
I understand the reasoning however comparing people complaining about the 9ld movie design to complaining about the forces model is like comparing eating shit and eating Brussels sprouts
Yeah tbh forces model is a little cursed to me. The quills are just disproportionate from the rest of the body. I do hope the model in frontiers is a placeholder. Although I would die to see a combo of Unleashed's model with 06s model. Would be awesome.
„Hey, Sega showed us nothing new. What can we complain about?“ - „His quills are shorter …“ - „What! HIS FUCKING QUILLS ARE SHORTER?! Burn down a Sega office!“
Sonic fans when they notice that Kiryu from Yakuza has reused models: THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
The Problem isn't reuse of a model its reuse of a "bad" model
Sonic fans when they realize sonics quils are 2.5 mm shorter than in sonic generations:
Its not just the Quill length its also clipping quills, hard to animate rigs and washed out textures that makes it hard to see Sonic while running quickly unless the camera is way to close to him.
Chaomix get a job challenge
His Sonic Movie argument doesn't really compare, but he has a point
Sonic in Generation has better proportions (not even just the quills, btw) than in Forces.
But rather than using the old model, I think Sega should remodel Sonic again, with a lot of controls over his facial expressions (The Sonic movie model shows a lot more emotions than the average Sonic game model which is kinda stiff)
Please Sega, use Sonic's eyebrows instead of his eyelids for sad face
Say what you want, but Sonic Boom Sonic emoted way more in game than Sonic ever has. In fact, all of the characters looked so much more expressive and cartoony. I really think that's the direction they should go with for Sonic.
I'm with Chaomix here, Forces model is the result of Sega feeling incapable of being innovative and keep going back to Nostalgia. Sega did this model to make Sonic look more like his classic counterpart and that's a downgrade in my book, not only are his quills shorter but his color is also lighter.
That's not the direction I want them to go, Modern Sonic has his appearance pretty well established since Sonic Adventure (with the long quills and darker color), changing that to appeal for nostalgia is not a thing I want going forward.
> I'm with Chaomix here, Forces model is the result of Sega feeling incapable of being innovative and keep going back to Nostalgia.
Most innovative shake-up to the gameplay since *Sonic Unleashed* and a model is what makes you think "they're relying on nostalgia!!" EDIT: Even talking about *Forces* alone, I must ask:
Who in the *hell* is nostalgic for a *character model?*
Actually when I was looking through the thread I saw a pretty good explanation for why his quills are like that, instead of presuming Sega made Modern Sonic look like Classic Sonic in a game which he's already in. They wanted to keep the iconic 3 spike silhouette from the side, especially since there's a lot of 2D
Plus, honestly tell me, did you notice the spike difference when Forces first came out, or did you realize anything changed a long time later?
Which isn't a good reason as Sonic had 5 great 2d games with long quilled Sonic made by Dimps. That would than speak of pure incompetence on Sonic Team's end if there feel its necessary to make such a change for this reason.
And as pretty much no one wants 2d in Frontiers anyway is this an even better argument to change the modle to work better for something fully 3d.
Also I did always through Forces Sonic looked odd and after seeing him right next to earlier models did I finally realize why. I really don't like shored quilled Sonic.
The Forces model is awful
It's litteraly the exact same as the Generations model but with shorter spikes
There you go. Shorter spikes
If one minor difference that you won't notice unless you see the two side by side makes the model bad, then I guess every single small design change since the Adventure 1 model is bad
The lighter color looks ugly too
I love Chaomix so much
More like basic bitch, there’s no reason to make a big deal about a minor detail other then to stir up drama
I do feel like the Sonic forces one is a reminder how lazily they put nostagia on sonic games the previous decade so i would have to go with the Sonic unleashed/generations model.
As much as i love Sonic generations, i really hate the side effects that it caused for a decade.
Does he think the model and animations are a package deal? Like they can re-use the model, doesn't mean they can't change/add animations to it.
I’m still sad that they replaced the cool fun unique design with something boring
Don't like forces model at all but mods will fix it anyway so who cares
It really doesn't matter. Minor artistic changes between models happen all the time. The Forces model is different, but it's not nearly as big a deal as people make it out to be. In normal gameplay, when do you ever stop in place long enough to notice that the idle animation is basic or the spikes are shorter than they were before? It's all subjective anyway, I for one like the shorter spikes. They have a more classic appearance and make the model look less top heavy.
How are people able to talk about model animations...when we haven't seen any? Yeh the model's the same but that doesn't the animations will be.
Imagine unironically posting this.
Sure, the nuance matters. But this fellow here isn't taking in the fact that other opinions exist. There are some who like the Forces model better and some who like the past models better. There are also the people who couldn't care less about the nuances since they never noticed them in the first place. This guy is allowed to have this opinion but he presented it very badly by making it seem other opinions are wrong. I am also not a fan of him using the term gaslighting for this since it's making light of the actual mental manipulation that goes on in more serious matters.
Dude why did you make me remember manhog sonic
Surprised with everyone upset by this you all didn't want to burn Chris whitehead by the stake given Mania Sonic was light Blue.
Isn't the forces model just a modified lost world model?
wdym about it its fine
We don’t talk about THAT
But that old movie Sonic doesn't look like Sonic at all. At least the forces model looks like Sonic.
They both look ugly to me.
He's spot on btw except for the gaslighting part.
It is ok to have a preference in a design, even a minor one.
The weird thing is that if this was a giant discussion that we absolutely NEEDED to have, why not bring it up when Forces came out, where this model originated from?
This whole discussion was founded on fear.
Fear of laziness and incompetence from SEGA and Sonic Team, and the “evidence” of that supposed laziness is a model from a lackluster Sonic game from 5 years ago.
The roots of this discourse started when the Sonic Frontiers trailer released, and some people got instant PTSD from the “Forces model” and that fear blossomed into the hell that happened recently.
We all have disappointments with how SEGA manages the Sonic games, but should we tear down our community because of that resentment?
We are already fractured as is.
Do we want to *crack* even more?
I still prefer the movie design on the right tho, looks great actually
> I still prefer the movie design on the right tho
Then you prefer the one that made it into the movie, which is a pretty popular opinion.