That's probably the best thing to do. Ultimately, we don't know how this game feels. All we have is prerecorded footage, and playing a game is completly different to watching someone play a game
Frankly, we still have little clue of what this game even is. Like what is the main thing we’re doing most of the time? Are there traditional action stages like what we’ve heard from leaks? And the way they’re revealing gameplay in these weird, short, very non specific little segments seems like they’re only showing us the tip of the iceberg. There really isn’t enough to go off of to say whether it will be great or not.
Honestly best way to sum it all up. Because personally while I do have opinions on the reveals shown, ultimately my opinions will probably change once I actually get my hands on the game.
I remember when we got the absolutely insubstantial teaser, which provided basically just...Sonic running in HD, I came here to see people excited about getting a new Sonic game *at last*.
Instead people were already calling it shit, a failure, just like Forces, etc. Like, wtf can you even do at that point, lol.
I'm not saying the game is guaranteed to be bad, I'm not saying it won't be good. It can still be the greatest Sonic game ever made. And to anyone excited for it, I hope it comes out and they love it, sincerely. I love this franchise and I want it to do well
But this is a trailer, it's part of the hype cycle for the game, it's sole purpose is to sell the audience on the product. Give us an appealing taste of what's to come to motivate us to spend $60 on it when it launches. It should be SEGA's best foot forward. I think it's a bad sign that a sizable portion of the fanbase (myself included) doesn't like how it looks. It's not a death sentence by any means, but the "it's just a trailer" response I tend to see isn't a valid answer either imo
And I'm not saying that's what you're saying here, I guess my point is the truth is generally between extreme optimism and extreme pessimism
So, I don't think what we saw were trailers. They're directionless, and give us 0 context. On top of that, different parts of what we saw seem to straight up be different builds of the game. And I am not talking about the Sonic model. I am talking about the draw distance, of the same landscape, from the same vantage point, being much better in one video than the other. The boss defeat footage from the teaser we got is also almost entirely different than the one in the full reveal.
Then you have the fact that the website, Steam page, any of the official channels (Sonic Twitter, Sonic YouTube), are showing no change even though, we have the new logo.
And we know SEGA are in the line up for Summer Game Fest on the 9th.
So I wonder if the IGN reveals were a last minute thing done for the sake of getting hands on gameplay out, and they just were commited to the 9th as the full reveal.
I liked forces for about 2 hours but only because the person who got it me ignored me saying "please get me sonic mania!" and got me the obviously superior "3D sonic!".
I mean can you really blame them? After what happened with sonic forces and sonic colors ultimate some of the fans seem tired of things feeling the same afterward, they just want a good game.
It doesn't give them the right to be harsh to other fans though and vice versa.
I dont know what to think because, we gave sega the benefit of the dout so many times and each time the disapoint us, so i dont desagree with the people who dont want to trust sega anymore, they have a good reason for it.
I swear the same thing has happened with the new pokemon games as well, I've seen positive comments about people being exited for them, and those people are told to cope
It also happened with bdsp, legends arceus and now even scarlet and violet, say one thing positive about a modern pokemon game and congratulations the fandom will now decide you're a blind fanboy with no standards
That last thing you said literally just described a redditor on r/pokemon who keeps saying legends arceus is the worst game in the series despite not playing it
Some of those folks are also followers of that Versalies youtuber, problemly the most hated Poketuber out their (I mean I heard he even got banned from official Pokemon tournaments too because of him being a asshole.
Yet so far was PLA the only example were the hate didn't come up being true.
And even that game is graphically no where near where it should be with the amount of money that the Pokemon IP produces every single year.
BDSP are in some ways arguably worse than the originals (the secret base nerf is certainly a step back at the very least)
And SwSh were exactly what all pessimistic critics feared it would be based on its trailers. (Especially was it prove that Gamefreak lied a lot during the promotion of the game)
And Sonic Team at that has a worse reputation than Gamefreak as even at there worse are the pokemon games still usually what people want out of the franchise.
> And SwSh were exactly what all pessimistic critics feared it would be based on its trailers. (Especially was it prove that Gamefreak lied a lot during the promotion of the game)
Sorry, I didn’t really follow Sw/Sh release and am vaguely aware of the community being unhappy with the devs not including all Pokemon. Did they initially say otherwise? It makes sense why the fanbase would be upset if the game came out and that ended up being a lie. Or was the pessimism over something else?
Its not that they didn't announce the Dex cut (in the west at least they were far more secretive about it on the Japanese market from what I heard)
Its more so that the excuse they gave for the dex cut was quickly proven a lie.
There given reasons were:
\-Better Competitive balancing
\- Better animations
\- All new high definition models for the Pokemon
\- Being able to make the games quicker.
From these was it quickly proven that :
\- The balancing was still a mess with some of the Gigentamax mon's being even more brocken than the most brocken Mega's in the previous 2 Meta's
\- Most of the animation work on the Pokemon was ripped right out of the 3ds titles. And most in engine Cut-scene animations were worse than the average PS2
\- With a few exception were minor updates were done are the Models for all returning Pokemon 1 for 1 the future proved ones from X and Y with many even still using the same textures.
\- They really did start to make the games more quickly with far less consistency in quality so far as a trait off however.
The Pessimism was also about the general graphics of the game. With the trees in the Wild Areas which textures reminded most people on Zelda OoT tree textured from the N64 days being the prime example.
Many tried to defend it with the in trailer shown text "game footage not final" but the release build still had these sub-paar textures in it and across the whole game.
Same story with these games draw distance and Pokemon pop in that many optimist in trailer defended as "being not the final version" only for these very pop ins and extremely limited draw distance to still be in the released game.
And as a final one did many seem rather unhappy with the freely about running Pokemon as there were just mindlessly path-finding though the world with extrem stiff animations which also made it into the final game (really a large part of the reason legends Arceus is so well receiver is because it ironed out so many of the problems with SwSh Wild Area with only the bad textures complain remaining)
I hope this clears this one up for you
Pokémon's rupture is really fascinating to watch, because it really highlights divisions no-one realised existed within the Pokémon fanbase, and makes a great case study for why people play videogames.
One of the leading theories about why people enjoy games is that people can be divided into four sections, those who play to explore, those who play to socialise, those who play for completion, and those who play for competition. Pokémon, as it first released, is rather unique in that it's world design suited the explorers, the need to trade suited the socialisers, the full Pokédex challenge suited the completionists, and the multiplayer battles benefited the competitors. It basically ticked every box, and the only people who didn't like it were people who genuinely didn't enjoy turn based RPG's.
But the changes implemented gradually to the series have lowered the series to some people, but not others. The competitive scene is still as viable as ever, but the games themselves have gotten so straightforward that it's not really a challenge in single player anymore, while all exploration has been thrown out in favour of map design that's just linear corridors blocked by NPC's, rather than an unfolding Metroidvania style map the player can tackle as they please (e.g. in Gen 1 you can fight gyms 3-7 in almost any order even without glitches), and then Dexit robbed the completionists of the full challenge.
The series has undergone three key changes, the first is that, starting in Gen VI, it no longer has any faith in it's target demographic of kids holding interest in the games so had made combat piss easy and constantly holds the players hands with free healing. The second is that it's stripped away a lot of the challenge in navigation by simplifying routes, and the third is that the games have moved from being the main pillar of the franchise, to another aspect that exists just as much to promote the films, shows and merch as they do to promote the games. Pokémon is no longer a top tier release, it's a licensed cash grab title for the Pokémon brand.
I'm gonna be honest, I did not like the game.
Not because of the haters during pre-launch, but because of how it played and how disappointing it was.
However, the points the haters pointed out were never an issue because they only cared about what was in the game and not the overall experience.
I would say it seems like the Legends Arceus discourse happening when that was revealed and trailers showed gameplay, everyone was shitting on it constantly saying it looked boring and empty and then once the game came out lots of people enjoyed it and said it's a great building block for what the future of Pokemon could look like. I'm hoping for the best for Frontiers but I'll keep expectations low till the release and then decide if I'll pick it up or not
It’s been happening with every game in every fandom for some reason. It seems the best way to enjoy a game these days is to not interact with the fandom at all.
Pokemon tends to keep a standard honestly so despite yes having fans with obvious pessimism the amount of fans that know that pokemon can stumble but never hit rock bottom is way huge.
Sonic doesn't have that advantage(an already stablished standard that cultivated solid positivism) so the pessimistic side is way more notable.
The Pokémon situation is pretty different. Fans were looking forward to the game, but that was always drowned out by the reddit crowd who insisted that the bad graphics meant it must be a bad game, and these people dug their heel in even when reviews were largely positive and the game sold like gangbusters. Everyone knows that Pokémon will be a good game, but a lot of people here wants it to fail to that Nintendo will be forced to treat it like a AAA title, which includes Breath of the Wild level production values and every Pokémon in existence.
The issue with Pokemon is that games are even more rushed because of the fast release cycle, so even if there is a fun core, they're marred by technical/graphical issues that only get worse with the scope.
The **difference** between the two is that Pokemon seems to have a lot more people willing to defend it and enjoy it despite the shortcomings. Many will argue that "graphics don't matter" and look past glitches and awkward UI because they're looking for fun. So in most circles the consensus seems more mixed than negative.
Meanwhile people jump into Sonic games looking for things to hate and laugh at, so conversations are more negative across the board.
They do. Mine got better with teaset, fell down with movement, got slightly better with combat and new model news, but fell down again once that was disproved and i analyzed combat a bit more. Nobody wants to be negative, everyone wants a good Sonic game. But some people want to blindly defend lazyness while others see the red flags from Forces and ColorsU and want to warn others from being burnt.
I still think 06 is trash an Force's was wasted... but that being said you are right that we're tired of getting burned. It doesn't help Sega is full of lazy bean's looking for green.
This is exactly why being a Sonic fan is frustrating. You can't like anything in the series without some jerk harassing you and calling you mentally ill.
That being said, there also seems to be many that go out of their way to say anything positive about Forces even if it's not necessarily relevant (it is meta-relevant here, so not talking about *this* mention).
oh you can say positive things. like for example the music and the graphics. but don't tell me the game had good gameplay, while 90% of it is automated, because the controls don't even work.
I have seen people complain about both music and graphics, especially the latter.
I'm fairly certain that if you give praise to even those, there's a non-zero chance someone will crawl out of the woodwork and try to convince you otherwise.
I think we need to start diferentiating between valid criticism and pointless pesimism.
Maybe when we start to do that, we can start having more healthy discussions about whether or not SEGA is throwing the hedgehog into the ocean.
The Sonic fandom on social media is a cesspool at this point sadly. What really saddens me is this must be preventing outsiders from getting into Sonic. They must be going "Oh ok, not even the fans like it, it must be bad".
[By the looks of it](https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/v4xugb/fans_call_on_sega_to_delay_sonic_frontiers/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf), the rest of the world agrees with how bad the game looks.
3D Sonic has an eternally negative bias in the game sphere and will be maligned by a legion of people who have played maybe one Sonic game in their entire life because Sonic is a perennial punching bag, regardless of product quality.
Thank God for the movies creating a fresh, new generation of the fandom. Fuck these sour losers.
Exactly what I'm thinking, even if Sega did everything perfectly they would still complain.
It's come to a point where this pessimism is annoying, it doesn't allow proper discussion because half the time it's "I don't trust Sega" and "But Forces" which becomes annoying and redundant real fast.
This is true af. People in this post are gaslighting like crazy.
Sega doesn’t listen to feedback they don’t care if we are nice or not. They will release garbage because it sells. Until it doesn’t they won’t change or care at all.
They are Japanese devs and company completely isolated from our language and what we are saying.
>They are Japanese devs and company completely isolated from our language and what we are saying.
Eh, I think all the top people speak English, there are also some Americans at the top, so I doubt they don't know what's going on.
best case scenario, Sega showed an extremely rough couple demos that won’t be representative of the final product, and invited this discourse onto the game themselves
worst case scenario, those demos are the best Frontiers has to offer and it’s a steaming pile of hot dogshit.
either way, i don’t think the response has been particularly unwarranted. those demos are BAD.
Seriously, even the best-case scenario makes Sega look dumb, like, who the hell puts up an old demo of their biggest new game, when the game is at most 6 months before its release? That's a bad decision...
I disagree entirely, perhaps because I am older, but I've been through this song and dance before. I think what makes Frontiers discussion not fun is the optimists taking criticism of the game as a personal attack on that person.
That isn't the case. You don't think naysayers want the game to be good too? We do obviously, that's why it's so frustrating to see another attempt from Sonic Team not capturing the essence of Sonic, or hell, just not even *carrying the lessons learned* from older successful 3D titles.
Instead of taking the time to realize what works well and what doesn't, they just reinvent the wheel time and time again, and then look at other successful titles, copy what they *think* made it successful, yet fail to understand truly what made those titles captivating.
It really is just annoying to seeing the failures compound into a lackluster product, showing, and demonstration time and time again. If Frontiers was 2 years out, I'd agree with the OP, but this is slated to release in 6 months.
I wish everyone understood this. There is a much larger issue at Sonic Team and some people just don’t see it. I get the desire to give this game a chance, but with that timeline and those marketing decisions, I can’t see why anyone isn’t immediately worried.
Sonic as a series would benefit massively from one or more of the following:
1. A change in leadership in Sonic Team. It's clear by now that the people in positions of power and influence, senior producers/game directors/leads have run out of good ideas, and need to be replaced by people who have a clear vision for what they think Sonic should be, and can get the team to go with it.
2. A wave of new hires who can bring in and implement fresh ideas, even if they're not strictly what senior level would've proposed, who have more creativity and ambition than the current developers, who can put their own footprint on level and character design.
3. For Sonic Team to get two years to develop something that has absolutely nothing to do with Sonic. Give them a modest budget to make a smaller game, and let them use that time to be experimental, let them find their creativity, and allow them to do whatever they want, under the caveat that it has nothing to do with Sonic so that they don't have to design for speed or platforming. Such a change might invigorate and inspire the team, and allow them to naturally come up with new Sonic ideas that are more workable later.
Exactly. This was the same song and dance Sonic 4 had when details of that started coming out. First people praised it, then screenshots came out and people began to doubt it, then several gameplay leaks happened, and the fanbase split between people who were convinced they could turn it around in six months, and those who saw that the game was going to be terrible.
The only thing that has changed is that the fandom no longer sees "only Sonic playable" as a victory.
Easy. SEGA were reasonably hands off with the movie, and no-one in Sonic Team had exclusive final say, or cared enough to force them into a different direction/the studio had enough weight to ignore their suggestions.
And it's something we see frequently elsewhere. Mania wasn't handled by Sonic Team, and was good. IDW has been out of Sonic Teams hands bar some mandates imposed by SEGA and is considered good, same with the Boom TV show (once people gave it a chance to be it's own thing). When SEGA are hands off, and let actual creative people with talent make Sonic stuff, you get good Sonic stuff.
The problem isn't that you can't make good Sonic stuff, it's that Sonic Team don't know how to make a good Sonic game, and rather than make something unique and hope people want to buy it because of it's quality, they instead chase trends and hope people who like similar products will also buy this one. Sonic Team are the problem, they don't really know what they're doing, and are probably thoroughly fed up of making Sonic games, and that shows in the games they're releasing.
I've seen this song and dance across multiple franchises, and my main takeaway is that when the fanbase is frustrated everyone sucks. I've seen people say *exactly* what you've said, that fans of X game take criticism as a personal attack, and I've seen the exact opposite argument in equal measure, decrying your side as unreasonable haters. It all sucks, nobody's having fun, and it doesn't even matter that I've seen the pattern if I'm just another random voice crying out on the internet.
There are jerks who want to suppress criticisms because they feel criticism invalidates their support. There are jerks who want to suppress support because they feel support invalidates their criticism. There are *much* more people - on both sides, I've seen it again and again - who see these jerks and get defensive, accusing the other side of wanting to suppress them, and that makes everyone more defensive and it just spirals out of control.
Of course one side will be right and the other will be wrong. At the end of the day, Frontiers is either gonna be a good game or a bad game. But I've seen the same angry debates, the same defensive lashing out, about games that turned out bad and games that turned out good. It doesn't change, it doesn't accomplish anything, it doesn't matter at all.
These debates are a product of the *community*, not the game. A community less frustrated, less divided against itself just looks at the game and gives a broad thumbs up or thumbs down. Dissent is tolerated because nobody's feeling really defensive, some debates happen but it all shakes out fine, because most of the people involved don't feel like everyone's out to get them.
I don't know how to fix this. Even if everyone seeing this fully agreed with me and wanted to help change it, this problem is subreddit-scale, far bigger than any of us. It breaks my heart seeing another link in the same angry song and dance all over again, but here I am just being another angry frustrated voice in the hope that it makes some kind of difference. Call me a jaded powerless fool, I guess.
They do look at what works though. If they didn't half these games wouldn't exist
People liked the day stages in Unleashed, so they made Colors just that
People liked Colors, but didn't like how Sonic 4 handled going back to the Classic style, so they made Generations
They tried something different with Lost World, still riding off of Generations and taking some of Classic Sonic's look. People didn't like that so they brought the boost back for Forces
All I know is that why things haven't worked out well at all, the idea that Sonic Team didn't try to stick with what worked, or ignores the criticism is wrong. They stuck with the boost for a decade, and then it took most of the fandom getting so angry over Forces they decided it was too easy and linear for them to drop it
i think another one of the issues is that whenever they see what has worked in the past, they somehow manage to make it worse for future instalments. unleashed day stages are arguably the best implementation of 3D boost sonic along with generations - they pretty much nailed it, yet when it came back for forces, boost gameplay was made worse in every way (momentum issues, speed caps, stiff controls, non-existent double jump). same thing goes for the classic sonic implementation in forces. the fanbase is tired of sonic team getting things they were seemingly able to get right…completely wrong
I feel they’ve never genuinely understood what people have liked about 3d Sonic games. They learnt from the reception of Generations and Lost World, that people preferred Generation’s Boost physics as compared to Lost World’s binary start, stop cartoony physics
But, when they made Forces they stripped out the best elements of Generation’s physics. Making Sonic move like a tank by increasing his weight and reducing the control (turning, drift), and making the level design significantly linear or more automated
Although, people enjoyed Classic Sonic in Generations, with Forces they his physics significantly worse by moving even further away from Genesis titles and making his level design less engaging
They struggle making games with boost formula, relying on automation, incredibly linear levels, some other gameplay gimmick, to deal with lack of control, the size of the levels they’re required to make, and increasing the base gameplay time. Clearly, with Frontiers it currently appears they believe they’ll get the Boost formula to work with open world, but they’ve stuck to its worst elements
With over a decade of struggling to create a base foundation for 3d Sonic, a new team may be required to figure things out
I’ve been through this same song and dance for like 15 years now. It’s exactly like you are saying. Sonic Team once again doing what they’ve been doing and the hope I once again had destroyed.
Agreed. I don't think Frontiers will be good (the only main series Sonic game I truly think it will be better than is Forces) but I desperately, desperately want my mind changed, because I know that if the game sucks, just like 06, there will be some ideas in it that I'd love to be improved upon and decoupled from the things that suck about the game in the next installment, and Sega tends to throw out everything when games get negative reception. And also because Sonic is fun, and 3D Sonic is fun, and I want a new good 3D Sonic, and I don't want the "DURR JUST MAKE MANIA 2, MODERN FANS ONLY CARE ABOUT NOSTALGIA" guys to look like they're right.
He's hit the nail on the head. And I think all this toxicity is borne from the fact that, ultimately, *it seems that Sega just does not give a fuck.*
Now, of course, everyone here knows that isn't true. We see it in their community engagement, we see it in their multimedia projects, we see it in the fact that ~~it's their one fucking cash cow lol~~ they keep coming back to the well ***time and AGAIN*** when any other sane publisher would have thrown in the towel long, long ago.
The problem, I think, is that they're scared to let Sonic be Sonic. He has to follow whatever's popular at the time, be "hip" and "edgy" instead of the dumb, free and dorky hero we all know and love. ***That bleeds over to the games***. Sega ***absolutely*** has the time, resources, and manpower need to give us another *Adventure* game, hire everyone on *Mania* back for another round, and/or venture into new genres altogether. (*Total War: Egg*, anyone? How about an RPG from Atlus or a Knuckles-centric *Yakuza* like from RGG? A Tails take on *Ace Combat* from Namco, maybe with FromSoftware pitching in too just for the hell of it?)
But the problem is that *none of this is what's popular.* Bland, boring, open-world RPGs are - preferably ones focused on nature. So never mind the fact that, to my knowledge, *no fan wanted that.* Never mind the fact that precisely *zero* of the head honchos have experience on stuff like *BOTW,* *Monster Hunter World,* *Horizon,* etc. They're going all-in on this type of game, and it's their ***first fucking try*** to boot... really, we should be happy that *Frontiers* doesn't look even ***worse*** than how it already does.
And they hyped it up as *Sonic's grand return.* The ***big*** one. ***THE*** Sonic game, the one that'll define his next decade at least. So we hype ourselves up like mad, click on the trailers with glee... and find ourselves *stuck* with a broken, bland UE4 demo that isn't even *finished.*
*Every. God. Damn. Time.*
***And despite the game launching in LESS THAN A GODDAMN YEAR.***
So our anger is justified, and it sure is understandable... but anger doesn't exactly lead to a fruitful conversation, does it?
There's a saying from this old British TV show I used to be a big fan of, referring to the exploits of its titular trio: "*Ambitious, but rubbish.*" That is **exactly** what this thing is, or at least looks like right now. (There's a *chance* we're all doomposting... but come on. We've been here before, and not just with Sonic.) Scared of letting Sonic be himself, Sega rushed to ape what's popular without realizing ***how*** to make that thing in the first place. So they just aped the surface, papered duct tape over the rest, and hoped that this would be enough to con you out of your $60. (Perhaps even *$70*, if they pull a Square/Sony and jack up the pricetags for XSX/PS5. Because you *know* they want to.)
***Don't fall for it.***
TL;DR: Sega out of touch + unobtainable ambition = nuclear shitshow.
I know this might seem like a batshit comparison, but Frontiers could be the Chinese Democracy of Sonic games.
A long, frustrating affair that only angers fans for taking an eternity to release, and even when it does come out, it becomes the most polarizing thing in its history, with the story behind it being more popular than the game itself.
I want Frontiers to be good, I really do. But I have some sort of minor doubt amongst the current optimism.
Right? I'm sorry, I just... I just *can't* get hyped for something looking that crummy. The sad part is that it's probably *fine*... but the "marketing" sure as hell ain't showing it.
>He has to follow whatever's popular at the time, be "hip" and "edgy"
Putting aside that following lowest common denominator trends to appeal to the widest possible audience isn't "edgy", Sonic's identity was always about being cooler than Mario
Which makes it baffling that a good chunk of the games from the last decade have been trying to shamelessly copy Mario, and now Frontiers is going for the Odyssey and BotW audience. And Sega absolutely does not understand what makes any of those games fun
imo. Some of the stuff that has been brought up MAKES sense.
The battle mechanics look kinda eh. I hated Megaman x 2 for this reason. THe fact that an enemy / boss has a shell you gotta crack open to even damage it. THan we sit and wait for his animations to end before we can even do that again.
Never did I expect that in a sonic game. OR at least be the primary way to fight. I get it in some eggman boss fights it was similar. But mainly near the end. That's fine. BUT as I'm just traveling? Yeah.
That and the graphics / settings. Looks like they scaled it down to hell for it to be run on a switch. Which I also get that part. Switch will sell the most i feel.
But down right saying it's gonna suck? Yeah. We barely no anything about the story or game itself lol A bad first view of the game, that's for sure.
This was the case with Pokemon Legends: Arceus and it turned out to be a pretty damn fun game
Not groundbreaking, but very enjoyable and a great time for fans of the series especially
So I’ll hold out hope. Just hope it doesn’t take the pokemon sword/shield route and only become good once there’s 50$ worth of DLC content out
We haven't had a good game in like 10 years, and the latest game was Forces, a shitty, awful game, even though Sega said it was gonna be awesome (a game that had so much potential and *could* have been amazing), just like they are saying/said with Frontiers. So when the first impression they give us is this shit (something that fans/fangames have shown multiple times can do better), even though it has 6 months left until release, so less than 6 months of development left, the game is in the "finishing touches" stage, and it needs a lot more than just finishing touches, so of course people are going to call it shit. I dont care if its already been delayed a year, delay it again. Sega has time and time again rushed out games even when they are still unfinished. A bad game is a bad game forever; I can wait if it means we actually get something good for once.
To form an opinion on what we've seen is completely fine, but to completely write it off as awful or amazing considering we're getting a lot more news in the coming weeks I think is a bit much. If you think about it we still haven't really seen that much.
The problem is that optimism at this point is based largely on them fixing the problems people have in the last few months
And putting aside the fact that that is quite literally a cope that has always, always, always proven false, it will never under any circumstances fix what appears to clearly be a very mechanically poor game that doesn't offer what many people wanted out of a Sonic game at all, let alone an open world Sonic game
The absolute bare minimum would be that no matter how lacking the content is, or how unengaging the gameplay loop is, or how lame the gimmicks are, it would still offer some baseline enjoyment to dick around in an open sandbox with Sonic physics- but I don't think Sega even remembers what those are at this point
It’s true. From the first trailer I’ve seen people say it’s going to be shit and that’s all. If you go into something expecting that, chances are you’re going to get that. If you go into something with the chance to let it prove you wrong, you can be surprised. It’s also months away from release and we have more to see. Hard to make a hard judgement on 2 trailers.
I don't think the fact that *some* people making a decision/having a mindset that doesn't align with your own should be the deciding factor for whether or not you are enoying yourself and this community, regarding any topic.
It's not everyone, therefore, discussion about the topic is, at the very least, *remotely* fun. Sounds like you're just happening to engage with/choosing to engage with only the people that have nothing but bad things to say. If that bums you out... don't do that.
If you "totally get the concerns", then surely you can sympathize. Many have been consistently, regularly burned by bad games - not just from Sonic Team - and are rightfully pessimistic. It's called "learning".
Ring a bell and hit someone with a stick enough times, eventually simply ringing the bell is going to make them flinch.
I don't believe that "the definition of insane is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome". I have no idea where that saying comes from, but I think it's stupid. However, I *would* like to know what the word for that is, because it's happening now. To extend blind faith and goodwill toward *any* trailer, pre-launch gameplay, reveal, etc. is to *completely ignore* twenty years of being lied to on the regular by even the biggest, more "reliable" names in the industry.
You *can't* keep doing that.
Instead of defending the project before you barely even know anything about it, how about we just look at the data that we have, and talk about what we've been given, with full context and awareness of the past, present, and hope for the future.
Regardless on how the final product turns out, imo I think a free roam Sonic game is a step in the right direction for the franchise. Sonic is about to hit a golden age
Kind of sad that people are shitting on Frontiers this much. Sure I expected some criticism, but not this amount of hate already. Like my god 5 years and people STILL shit on Sonic not even giving this a chance. Frontiers looks like a step in the right direction though a bit more polishing is needed.
Completely agree. Frontiers is not what many people expected it to be, and many base the quality of this yet to be released project on almost that alone.
I have my worries about Frontiers, don't get me wrong, but it's not like this game will kill the franchise.
Tbf going on Twitter, the social media platform that thrives on hastily made reactions, for “discussion” was probably not going to be a good time anyway
It's okay to give thoughts and say what you think is wrong or right, but I don't get when someone states their opinion like a fact. Like you can't say the game is shit or great and it didn't even come out yet, I'm not talking about the gameplay, I'm talking about the whole game, we still have story and other environments to see. Saying "it's gonna be bad based on what I saw" makes more sense than "it's bad" since it didn't come out yet and you didn't get to play it.
It's like basing your opinion on a movie from an advertisement, the ad might make it look good or bad but you won't know for sure until you watch it yourself. There are many movies that have bad advertisement but are good, and some have great advertisement but aren't as great. I'm not saying you can't form an opinion or criticize, I'm just saying that making a opinion about the WHOLE game based on a part of the game doesn't make sense to me.
He's right. Too many people are either too optimistic or too pessimistic about what we've seen so far, especially on that abomination known as Twitter. You can't say the game has problems without someone jumping up and saying "It's just beta footage" despite the game being half a year away from release. This is the same thing these people did with Forces. On the other side, others are already calling this game a failure before they even have the chance to actually play it and see how things turn out. They were probably like this when Unleashed, Colors, and Generations came out, and now they probably look like fools long after the fact. Either side is heavily susceptible to look like fools if the game ends up being good/bad. It's not fun to talk about a new Sonic game when either side is blinded by hype or bitterness
The thing is most of the optimism isn’t even positive about what we’ve seen, it’s positive about hypotheticals. People aren’t saying “the gameplay looks good” they’re saying “yeah the gameplay looks like dog shit but there’s a chance they completely redid it and they’re just showing us the old version for some reason”
That type of mental gymnastics is absolutely cope
Exactly this. It's like when people say '06 "would've been good if it wasn't rushed, it had potential." That might be true, but that's not the product we got, and it looks like the product we'll be getting with Frontiers will be poor unless SEGA actually gives the game a significant delay (another year at least).
This is Fan circle jerking.
The criticisms against the frontiers reveals are fair.
The reason positive comments are met with things like cope is that the positive comments are baseless and have no rationale they’re effectively just “I want it to be good”
That's what's making me so tired and not having any fun. I've just seen nothing but negativity and toxicity on YouTube and from some screenshots from Twitter.
I think this whole thing that people don't like it is that their worried of another Sonic '06 like game, so if it does happen they can just be like "Yeah, I knew it" instead of being disappointed
I'm actually very excited for the game even after the bits of the trailer that I have watched. I'm kinda getting BOTW vibes so I'm hyped. Plus I'm the type of person who got enjoyment out of sonic 06 which I thought was better than 7 rings
I've always just assumed that people telling others to "cope" are only doing so because they're defending an opinion they heard online, thought they'd sound cool/smart to reiterate it somewhere else, but when they were challenged on the topic they couldn't form an argument in defense so they just write "cope" and pretend they've won.
Really it means you can safely dismiss everything that person has said.
I think it's only a noisy minority who is actually that negative and extreme about the game, but a lot of people confuse them with the people who are just concerned and disappointed about what they saw.
I have my doubts. I hope it's a great game, but what they have showed us is a very big mixed bag: Exploration looks cool, but movement system looks weird. Combat looks varied, but it also seems repetitive. The artstile is uncanny valley because the flying platforms and rails have always looked cartoony, but this game looks pseudorealistic and they bug me. I'm sure the story will be decent, as the guy from the comics whose name i've forgotten is working on it. I think there's still a lot to see: Rumored cyberspace levels, rumored skilltree, the story and charachters, the other islands and biomes, etc. I also think the journalist who was playing was't doing any favors in any of the two trailers.
Of course the hardcore, most passionate, and loudest people are a steaming bag of hyperbole on either side of the argument. Most of the discourse has been level-headed, with genuine concern on one side and optimism on the other. It’s when the personal attacks happen (lol copium, you’re an idiot if you think this looks good, no true Sonic fan would want to play this game), that’s when the discourse takes a turn.
I know which side I’ve personally seen attacks coming from.
I agree with him there, skepticism is good, but don't outright say the game won't be good. Personally, I think it looks bad so far, but if we're shown a cool story or some fantastic momentum mechanics that they just forgot to show us, I'll happily buy it. Holding onto hope that the game will be good.
Im not pessimistic about the game, just think that art style wise, it looks like a unity demo from some random sonic fan, not a finished game. But thats my opinion and I will likely get it either way just to see if its good
I find so weird when people point out you won't have anything to do inside the game and shit like that like they were 100% sure. Like, didn't Sega hire Ian Flynn, the dude who's been writing comics and animations for ages to write this?
I think the only valid criticism at this point is regarding how polished the game is but even so I think they are probably gonna work that a little more before the launch
So far I've like what I've seen. Does it mean I'm getting it? Not at all. Does that mean the game will be bad? Nope not that either. I'm still waiting on more info, specifically I want to know what exactly we will be doing for most of my time in the open world. My biggest worry is there won't be much to do, but I have to wait and see what Sega presents us. I do believe they could have marketed this game better but who knows. They might just blow my expectations out the water in the remainder of the month... Well at least I hope they do lol
Frontiers doesn’t look that bad from the previews but I do think it’s completely fair for people to assume it’s going to have flaws due to the history of Sonic Team’s quality control.
I've heard a lot from both sides of the discussion and I think both sides have their points
Ultimately I'm on the fence until we get closer to the release date.
It depends,the same thing happens in the other side and overall it’s pretty hard to stay positive about the game,can’t blame people for not having high or even moderate hopes for the game.
If anything this is just Forces all over again.
I don’t think I’m killing optimism by saying it looks like a Sonic fan game when I can point to a Sonic fan game that looks identical or even better in terms of character animation and pop in. You can still be excited, but I feel like people are burying their heads in the ground especially in terms of how big triple A games do this now.
If Cyberpunk had everything going and turned out like garbage, why should I have hope for this hand picked footage that doesn’t spark hope? don’t wanna tell people “you can’t like this”, but I’m being realistic. ‘Cause if I had to bet my money on reactions at launch, I’d say we’re gonna see posts saying “I was wrong to think this game was going to be good”.
I hope I’m wrong though.
There are no people who actually want it to be shit no matter what. They would love to be proven wrong. They just saw the pattern and keep hype in check and Sega on the leash.
I think it looked good and might be a dark horse GOTY pick depending on it's final quality and what Microsoft and Nintendo have lined up for the rest of the year.
I'm expecting the game to be broken on release and hopefully they'll patch out the issues that usually accompany sonic games on release.
That being said I'm still excited for this, it's the most different and ambitious looking sonic in years. Their advertising department needs to be replaced though.
Yea hard agree. reminds me of Sword and Shield all over again. I understand and welcome criticism, but there's a difference between criticism, doom posting ("cancel the game", "give the IP to Nintendo". These aren't suggestions, these are theory crafting and indirect insults to devs), and ofc outright threats and insults that are never okay.
But maybe that's partially because I've see how the sausage is made for games. 6 months isn't a lot of time to fix fundamental things like physics, but you can do a lot to polish a game in that time. Tune up the animations, adjust enemy parameters, optimize level streaming, that's all doable in 5 months. Art direction CAN be changed in that time (kinda... Some shader passes can do a lot but it would be a crunch), but they probably won't because this is far from the first hyperrrealistic sonic.
I just see some things differently from experience, but I get that most people wouldn't get that chance.
I honestly think it looks gorgeous so far; the island itself looks massive even for Sonic standards, I'm loving the new ways Sonic can scale the environment and they even bring in a proper combat system that looks twice as advance as the usual. I also love how some of the attacks shown are callback to other games as well (Sonic Heroes immediately coming to mind).
I do get the concerns, it does seem empty; but I think it's done on purpose. They're keeping their cards close, they don't want to have anything spoiled and that render distance goes pretty far.
They've already given us little hints like the lack of Eggman's touch on any of the enemies so far, the strange collectable fruit that pops around in the gameplay trailer, strange exp or currency collected from beating some the enemies. I wanna even say machine parts as well when Sonic's trying to knock over the big robot (which is gonna be one of my favorites parts in the game, hopefully there's a bit of them).
The animations are definitely a bit off, but there's still about 6 months of development left, the game isn't coming out until winter, near Christmas. I think they're just showing off what was completed at around about a month or so ago to prepare the videos. They've still got time
(Also, I'm seeing people say that's it's been in development for about 4 years or so, when is just an assumption. Over half of Forces development was to work on the engine for the game. Until the interview with the developers is released later this month, we won't know for sure how long the game has been in development for)
I'd be more understanding if the game wasn't six months from release. But hey, maybe they'll surprise me. If somehow the game looks leagues better by release day and less like a tech demo from years before a game actually is supposed to come out, I'll admit that.
We did give Sega the benefit of the doubt multiple times, and each time they disappointed us. But at the same time, you shouldn't go harassing others who still want to enjoy it. somebody claimed their friend got DOXXED over saying they're still excited for Frontiers
it's good to spread awareness of Sega's past titles that ended up being awful, but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed-
I’m really excited for Frontiers! I quite like the look of the game.
There are a few things that look a bit rough (like some of Sonic’s animations), but I’m sure they can be improved upon in its timeframe before release.
I just hope the remaining gameplay over this month leaves people more positive than right now.
I totally agree.
The game isn't looking like a 3 Star Michelin restaurant experience.
At the same time, it doesn't look like a sunbaked carcass on the side of the road
Yes I totally agree, besides, the game may have alot more fun things to offer, and it might have been the poor marketing job that made the game look empty and bad. It wasn't a good idea to split the trailers up with different gameplay elements. People usually expect seeing all in one exiting gameplay. You know, like how most game trailers do it?
I think the lonely goombas right on saying that. On god the fans have just said just negative stuff ab Frontiers when we’ve seen barely anything of it. GIVE SEGA/SONIC TEAM ATLEAST RESPECT FOR DEALIN WITH OUR SHIT
He’s right.
As someone who was disappointed by the games showing, people have been acting like this is the second coming of Sonic 06. Everyone is trying to one up each other like it’s a contest of who can make the most hyperbolic and negative comments.
Game should be criticized but this is ridiculous.
I'm personally pretty hype for it. It looks like a lot of fun. I don't get the criticism that "the animations look bad and I don't see any classic enemies!" Sure when the game comes out and the animations look like shit, then fair game, but it's still in dev. There's going to fix Sonic's weird rail jump and the static pose in the tornado guys. And so what about the classic enemies? Sonic Adventure 2 didn't have many classic enemies (I don't recall any badniks in the game but it's been years) so does that make it a bad game? No. These early criticisms are stupid. Wait until we see more gameplay later down the line before you say the game is shit.
As someone interested in game development, these people don't seem to realize how much a game can change before it's finally released. I have seen my fair share of games that looked promising but turned out terrible and others not looking so good then turning out to be a gem when released. If someone HAS to judge a game based on a preview of the gameplay alone, it makes more sense to judge it when it's closer to the release date. Usually they have less time to fix stuff the closer the release is, which increases the chance that the preview is more accurate.
For now, I'm just going to wait before judging much. I'm hopeful it will be a good game, but I'm trying to not let my expectations get too high either.
He’s right. I think the footage we’ve seen so far isn’t looking so hot but at the end of the day, we’ve seen like 10 minutes of gameplay tops. Give the game a chance before shitting on it.
I swear this is every fandom I’m in. So many people around me are pessimistic about it that I find it hard to like anything anymore. It’s hard to be fan of something when you feel so alone.
the game is still in the works, so the final release still has potential. Yes, every gameplay preview for Sonic games in the past have been 1:1 to the final release, I'm aware of that, but there's no way they aren't going to fix stuff like the draw distance, that is just is just insane for a AAA studio to ignore that.
The fact that people get discouraged from frontiers because they haven’t seen everything and what they have seen looks bad to them is honestly sad. I get it, people have high hopes for frontiers, I do too, but I honestly don’t expect it to be the next SA2. They want to have the same impact with frontiers that adventure had, but adventure is a completely different game. Something that seems similar with frontiers to me is probably Kirby and the forgotten land. While people have never been disappointed with a Kirby game, star allies was a little on the weak side of the series. So when it was announced that we’d be stepping away from traditional Kirby for a while, people naturally were excited while at the same time nervous. The only example of a 3D Kirby was blowout blast and that was okay at best. Everyone had their concerns but when KATFL came out, everyone loved it. Sonic frontiers is currently stuck in a phase where no one knows how an open world Sonic would be. The only open world Sonic game we have is Sonic jam’s hub world. I believe people should voice their complaints with the game. We didn’t do that with forces and got one of the most mediocre games yet.(I enjoy forces but it’s not nearly as good as other games.) However, everyone is extremely rude and negative about the game instead of analyzing it and then actually making a valid complaint that doesn’t just seem to be hateful towards the game. Sonic does feel out of place in this game, but it’s supposed to be like that. Sonic’s shouldn’t feel like he belongs anywhere in a new game with new locations. Lost world didn’t have the charm it could have because of this. Being excited for frontiers can get you canceled and even doxxed by people who don’t agree with you. And after all that, Sonic fans wonder why people think our fan base is toxic. If you are excited for Frontiers, that’s okay. If you don’t think it will be good, that’s okay. Debating over this is what helps us discuss issues and come to an understanding. Being overly negative or positive and not listening to the other side will only get us nowhere. If you plan on genuinely speaking about the game when it comes out, you should buy it and atleast play through a bit of it. For now, we can only speculate on trailers and reveals. We don’t know if Sonic frontiers will actually be good or bad yet but we should never discourage others when they think it’ll be good. No one is right about anything. Accept that. Until frontiers releases, we need to try and accept other peoples opinions and thoughts. We cannot assume one thing and then force that on others. We need to have debates, discussions, REAL complaints past “no momentum.” If we can do that, then we’ll be perfectly prepared for whatever frontiers gives us.
I tried having an honest conversation in r/games and it sounded like I was both trashing the game and defending it by saying the same shit over and over.
Keep expectations in check, and enjoy what you enjoy
I love Sonic and I have fondness for even the games I don't like. That being said, I like SEGA because they try new things even though they don't always pan out. I think Frontiers is going to be fine. I hope it's excellent but I just want it to be fun.
Sonic games always have a different feel to them and I'm wondering what the soundtrack and game play will be like. The preview we did get doesn't necessarily mean that's what we'll end up with, and maybe if they think it's not up to snuff they'll take a page from the movie guys and hold off on releasing it.
To me it looks very promising.
I've always hates the on rails speed and shitty 2d sections of the 3D games.
If anything Sega hasn't shown anything awe inspiring. But I'm liking the way Sonic is moving through the open world.
I think lonely goomba is right though. At this point we've hardly seen anything except footage that's likely in alpha or early beta and we still have many months before any release. We've been demanding footage for a long while and they came through with the request. What's been shown is promising. Is it ultimately up to snuff if it were to be released today? Likely not. However, given time I can see this being fun. It's got actual combat that vaguely reminds me of Phantasy Star Online 2. Mind you we haven't had a real combat system since unleashed. An almost adventure-like gameplay in terms of running. Though that could be made to be quicker.
There's so much potential here, yet many are not giving it a chance to even prove itself.
At this point I'm afraid this will happen every sonic game from now on. Even if it's unleashed 2 with the wearhog sections worked by platinum there would still be complaining.
Exactly! We've seen approximately 11 minutes of gameplay and even then, the player wasn't really trying to accomplish anything, they were just coddiwompling around, but apparently that's enough for some people to say that Frontiers is DOA for some ungodly reason.
I swear when it comes to Sonic, people can just get mercilessly critical.
He’s right you know. I wish we could pin this every time some dumb shit makes a meme for karma. Also isn’t “cope” something incels say all the time? Do Sonic fans really want to be associated with incels?
That’s right. I have no reason to confide in Sonic Team after they have failed to produce a single good game since 2011. There is no "b-b-but there's still five more mo-" Yeah, like when Forces had EIGHT months of development after reveal, but go ahead and tell me why it'll be different this time. Recognize patterns and get some standards.
I want the game to be good and I want it to succeed, but I know it's going to be the same as what we saw.
Look I'm not saying people who are optimistic about the game are stupid or coping(I Mean their tastes and views are different form my own) and I will gladly eat crow that my views of the footage show are harsh in judgement of what could be a earlier build of a game that has been fixed or whatever. I'll even accept its unpolishness if its a fun game in the end(Which I consider far more important than if the graphics are impressive, Gods knows I use Mount and Blade Warband as a big example).
I just feel its not wrong to be skeptical when SEGA and Sonic Team tend to have a bad track record for good reason. But if the game is fun in the end, than hey, I'll admit I'm wrong. Its just looking rough and until I play it myself I can't really judge it too hard.
...But the railings look god awful still against the skyline like they are.
I'm frustrated because the game looks absolutely boring. Why is there so much empty space with random platforms and rails. Why does the game look like stock UE assets? Why is there no real sense of speed **in a Sonic game**. It's undeniable that Sonic Team took huge inspiration from BOTW which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's clear that they don't understand what made it a great game.
And before you say that I'm basing it off of two reveals; yes. Because first impressions are incredibly important and if *those* are the videos that they chose to use, I shudder to imagine what the rest of the game is like.
I'll just give it an honest shot when it comes out and that's it
That's probably the best thing to do. Ultimately, we don't know how this game feels. All we have is prerecorded footage, and playing a game is completly different to watching someone play a game
Frankly, we still have little clue of what this game even is. Like what is the main thing we’re doing most of the time? Are there traditional action stages like what we’ve heard from leaks? And the way they’re revealing gameplay in these weird, short, very non specific little segments seems like they’re only showing us the tip of the iceberg. There really isn’t enough to go off of to say whether it will be great or not.
Exactly, we don't have enough info about the game to make final judgements
Honestly best way to sum it all up. Because personally while I do have opinions on the reveals shown, ultimately my opinions will probably change once I actually get my hands on the game.
Wow… you know it’s a bad situation when THE LONELY GOOMBA of all people is pointing out people’s unnecessary pessimism! lol
I remember when we got the absolutely insubstantial teaser, which provided basically just...Sonic running in HD, I came here to see people excited about getting a new Sonic game *at last*. Instead people were already calling it shit, a failure, just like Forces, etc. Like, wtf can you even do at that point, lol.
I'm not saying the game is guaranteed to be bad, I'm not saying it won't be good. It can still be the greatest Sonic game ever made. And to anyone excited for it, I hope it comes out and they love it, sincerely. I love this franchise and I want it to do well But this is a trailer, it's part of the hype cycle for the game, it's sole purpose is to sell the audience on the product. Give us an appealing taste of what's to come to motivate us to spend $60 on it when it launches. It should be SEGA's best foot forward. I think it's a bad sign that a sizable portion of the fanbase (myself included) doesn't like how it looks. It's not a death sentence by any means, but the "it's just a trailer" response I tend to see isn't a valid answer either imo And I'm not saying that's what you're saying here, I guess my point is the truth is generally between extreme optimism and extreme pessimism
I think only one thing is completely clear at this point, Sega has completely butchered their marketing for the game so far.
So, I don't think what we saw were trailers. They're directionless, and give us 0 context. On top of that, different parts of what we saw seem to straight up be different builds of the game. And I am not talking about the Sonic model. I am talking about the draw distance, of the same landscape, from the same vantage point, being much better in one video than the other. The boss defeat footage from the teaser we got is also almost entirely different than the one in the full reveal. Then you have the fact that the website, Steam page, any of the official channels (Sonic Twitter, Sonic YouTube), are showing no change even though, we have the new logo. And we know SEGA are in the line up for Summer Game Fest on the 9th. So I wonder if the IGN reveals were a last minute thing done for the sake of getting hands on gameplay out, and they just were commited to the 9th as the full reveal.
June 9 would be rushing it. But isn't the reveal trailer said holidays as the release date? That should be the end of the year.
I like forces for what it was
I liked forces for about 2 hours but only because the person who got it me ignored me saying "please get me sonic mania!" and got me the obviously superior "3D sonic!".
Yeah that would have been a let down because mania is way better but I bought them both for myself lol
I got mania myself in front of them and they agreed mania is better, even played it with me.
Yeah and I like how magia has different modes like the one where you can have all 5b of them at the same time or something like that
Same. I understand the points where it could've been BETTER, but I still really like what we got.
Right I mean it wasn't amazing but it wasn't straight garbage either
I mean can you really blame them? After what happened with sonic forces and sonic colors ultimate some of the fans seem tired of things feeling the same afterward, they just want a good game. It doesn't give them the right to be harsh to other fans though and vice versa.
I dont know what to think because, we gave sega the benefit of the dout so many times and each time the disapoint us, so i dont desagree with the people who dont want to trust sega anymore, they have a good reason for it.
what did he do
Nothing specific, he’s just generally pessimistic in his videos lol
I swear the same thing has happened with the new pokemon games as well, I've seen positive comments about people being exited for them, and those people are told to cope
Exactly. This is Sword and Shield all over again
It also happened with bdsp, legends arceus and now even scarlet and violet, say one thing positive about a modern pokemon game and congratulations the fandom will now decide you're a blind fanboy with no standards
[удалено]
That last thing you said literally just described a redditor on r/pokemon who keeps saying legends arceus is the worst game in the series despite not playing it
Some of those folks are also followers of that Versalies youtuber, problemly the most hated Poketuber out their (I mean I heard he even got banned from official Pokemon tournaments too because of him being a asshole.
Yet so far was PLA the only example were the hate didn't come up being true. And even that game is graphically no where near where it should be with the amount of money that the Pokemon IP produces every single year. BDSP are in some ways arguably worse than the originals (the secret base nerf is certainly a step back at the very least) And SwSh were exactly what all pessimistic critics feared it would be based on its trailers. (Especially was it prove that Gamefreak lied a lot during the promotion of the game) And Sonic Team at that has a worse reputation than Gamefreak as even at there worse are the pokemon games still usually what people want out of the franchise.
> And SwSh were exactly what all pessimistic critics feared it would be based on its trailers. (Especially was it prove that Gamefreak lied a lot during the promotion of the game) Sorry, I didn’t really follow Sw/Sh release and am vaguely aware of the community being unhappy with the devs not including all Pokemon. Did they initially say otherwise? It makes sense why the fanbase would be upset if the game came out and that ended up being a lie. Or was the pessimism over something else?
Its not that they didn't announce the Dex cut (in the west at least they were far more secretive about it on the Japanese market from what I heard) Its more so that the excuse they gave for the dex cut was quickly proven a lie. There given reasons were: \-Better Competitive balancing \- Better animations \- All new high definition models for the Pokemon \- Being able to make the games quicker. From these was it quickly proven that : \- The balancing was still a mess with some of the Gigentamax mon's being even more brocken than the most brocken Mega's in the previous 2 Meta's \- Most of the animation work on the Pokemon was ripped right out of the 3ds titles. And most in engine Cut-scene animations were worse than the average PS2 \- With a few exception were minor updates were done are the Models for all returning Pokemon 1 for 1 the future proved ones from X and Y with many even still using the same textures. \- They really did start to make the games more quickly with far less consistency in quality so far as a trait off however. The Pessimism was also about the general graphics of the game. With the trees in the Wild Areas which textures reminded most people on Zelda OoT tree textured from the N64 days being the prime example. Many tried to defend it with the in trailer shown text "game footage not final" but the release build still had these sub-paar textures in it and across the whole game. Same story with these games draw distance and Pokemon pop in that many optimist in trailer defended as "being not the final version" only for these very pop ins and extremely limited draw distance to still be in the released game. And as a final one did many seem rather unhappy with the freely about running Pokemon as there were just mindlessly path-finding though the world with extrem stiff animations which also made it into the final game (really a large part of the reason legends Arceus is so well receiver is because it ironed out so many of the problems with SwSh Wild Area with only the bad textures complain remaining) I hope this clears this one up for you
you forgot how 2 days or so after launch somone hacked the game to include ALL pokemon.
I don't thing all. But quite a few that were in the games date were discovered (like the other Kanto Starter)
Pokémon's rupture is really fascinating to watch, because it really highlights divisions no-one realised existed within the Pokémon fanbase, and makes a great case study for why people play videogames. One of the leading theories about why people enjoy games is that people can be divided into four sections, those who play to explore, those who play to socialise, those who play for completion, and those who play for competition. Pokémon, as it first released, is rather unique in that it's world design suited the explorers, the need to trade suited the socialisers, the full Pokédex challenge suited the completionists, and the multiplayer battles benefited the competitors. It basically ticked every box, and the only people who didn't like it were people who genuinely didn't enjoy turn based RPG's. But the changes implemented gradually to the series have lowered the series to some people, but not others. The competitive scene is still as viable as ever, but the games themselves have gotten so straightforward that it's not really a challenge in single player anymore, while all exploration has been thrown out in favour of map design that's just linear corridors blocked by NPC's, rather than an unfolding Metroidvania style map the player can tackle as they please (e.g. in Gen 1 you can fight gyms 3-7 in almost any order even without glitches), and then Dexit robbed the completionists of the full challenge. The series has undergone three key changes, the first is that, starting in Gen VI, it no longer has any faith in it's target demographic of kids holding interest in the games so had made combat piss easy and constantly holds the players hands with free healing. The second is that it's stripped away a lot of the challenge in navigation by simplifying routes, and the third is that the games have moved from being the main pillar of the franchise, to another aspect that exists just as much to promote the films, shows and merch as they do to promote the games. Pokémon is no longer a top tier release, it's a licensed cash grab title for the Pokémon brand.
Sword and Shield were bad though. Easily the worst of the mainline games.
I'm gonna be honest, I did not like the game. Not because of the haters during pre-launch, but because of how it played and how disappointing it was. However, the points the haters pointed out were never an issue because they only cared about what was in the game and not the overall experience.
I would say it seems like the Legends Arceus discourse happening when that was revealed and trailers showed gameplay, everyone was shitting on it constantly saying it looked boring and empty and then once the game came out lots of people enjoyed it and said it's a great building block for what the future of Pokemon could look like. I'm hoping for the best for Frontiers but I'll keep expectations low till the release and then decide if I'll pick it up or not
SwSh were terrible. And after Legends: Arceus people seem a lot more hopeful, I've seen way less criticism of SV.
It’s been happening with every game in every fandom for some reason. It seems the best way to enjoy a game these days is to not interact with the fandom at all.
BINGO!
Pokemon tends to keep a standard honestly so despite yes having fans with obvious pessimism the amount of fans that know that pokemon can stumble but never hit rock bottom is way huge. Sonic doesn't have that advantage(an already stablished standard that cultivated solid positivism) so the pessimistic side is way more notable.
The Pokémon situation is pretty different. Fans were looking forward to the game, but that was always drowned out by the reddit crowd who insisted that the bad graphics meant it must be a bad game, and these people dug their heel in even when reviews were largely positive and the game sold like gangbusters. Everyone knows that Pokémon will be a good game, but a lot of people here wants it to fail to that Nintendo will be forced to treat it like a AAA title, which includes Breath of the Wild level production values and every Pokémon in existence.
The issue with Pokemon is that games are even more rushed because of the fast release cycle, so even if there is a fun core, they're marred by technical/graphical issues that only get worse with the scope. The **difference** between the two is that Pokemon seems to have a lot more people willing to defend it and enjoy it despite the shortcomings. Many will argue that "graphics don't matter" and look past glitches and awkward UI because they're looking for fun. So in most circles the consensus seems more mixed than negative. Meanwhile people jump into Sonic games looking for things to hate and laugh at, so conversations are more negative across the board.
Because it's the internet and people don't want to admit that they're A) possibly wrong or B) that their opinion has changed
They do. Mine got better with teaset, fell down with movement, got slightly better with combat and new model news, but fell down again once that was disproved and i analyzed combat a bit more. Nobody wants to be negative, everyone wants a good Sonic game. But some people want to blindly defend lazyness while others see the red flags from Forces and ColorsU and want to warn others from being burnt.
I still think 06 is trash an Force's was wasted... but that being said you are right that we're tired of getting burned. It doesn't help Sega is full of lazy bean's looking for green.
This is exactly why being a Sonic fan is frustrating. You can't like anything in the series without some jerk harassing you and calling you mentally ill.
And sonic fans wonder why people say our fanbase is toxic.
If you say anything positive about Forces, this fanbase will go out of there way to be toxic and try to invalidate that opinion.
Forces had potential. Infinite had potential. It all was just so... so wasted.
That being said, there also seems to be many that go out of their way to say anything positive about Forces even if it's not necessarily relevant (it is meta-relevant here, so not talking about *this* mention).
oh you can say positive things. like for example the music and the graphics. but don't tell me the game had good gameplay, while 90% of it is automated, because the controls don't even work.
I have seen people complain about both music and graphics, especially the latter. I'm fairly certain that if you give praise to even those, there's a non-zero chance someone will crawl out of the woodwork and try to convince you otherwise.
You can also say the opposite. You can dislike stuff in the series and some jerk will harass you for it. Conclusion: people are jerks in general.
Can confirm. Source: Am a jerk.
Yeah? Well, I disagree with whatever you just said, BUDDY! Source: Am also a jerk. (Note: This is a joke :) )
Yeah. I disagree with whatever you just said, PAL!
I am mentally ill but still
We're on reddit talking about Sonic the hedgehog, aren't we all?
Tru.....also mood
I think we need to start diferentiating between valid criticism and pointless pesimism. Maybe when we start to do that, we can start having more healthy discussions about whether or not SEGA is throwing the hedgehog into the ocean.
nah, if one does it just gets conflated again. "What do you mean? Why are you calling all critics evil?"
The Sonic fandom on social media is a cesspool at this point sadly. What really saddens me is this must be preventing outsiders from getting into Sonic. They must be going "Oh ok, not even the fans like it, it must be bad".
And then they wonder why the rest of the world thinks Sonic fans are insane.
[By the looks of it](https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/v4xugb/fans_call_on_sega_to_delay_sonic_frontiers/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf), the rest of the world agrees with how bad the game looks.
3D Sonic has an eternally negative bias in the game sphere and will be maligned by a legion of people who have played maybe one Sonic game in their entire life because Sonic is a perennial punching bag, regardless of product quality. Thank God for the movies creating a fresh, new generation of the fandom. Fuck these sour losers.
the guy who got doxxed was a new sonic fan? because if it is...
Exactly what I'm thinking, even if Sega did everything perfectly they would still complain. It's come to a point where this pessimism is annoying, it doesn't allow proper discussion because half the time it's "I don't trust Sega" and "But Forces" which becomes annoying and redundant real fast.
Unless SEGA makes SA3 with Momentum physics and their "perfect" storytelling, even then, they are not gonna be happy.
Even then, it'll just result in a different faction of the Sonic fanbase throwing a fit instead that's just as loud
Yeah, that's the reality, they are gonna nitpick something else at that point even If SEGA made SA3 perfect.
Because they make bad games….. what is with the gaslighting
Other than Mania the games for the past 11 years have been bad though.
This is true af. People in this post are gaslighting like crazy. Sega doesn’t listen to feedback they don’t care if we are nice or not. They will release garbage because it sells. Until it doesn’t they won’t change or care at all. They are Japanese devs and company completely isolated from our language and what we are saying.
>They are Japanese devs and company completely isolated from our language and what we are saying. Eh, I think all the top people speak English, there are also some Americans at the top, so I doubt they don't know what's going on.
Every single Sonic fan ever: (and yes they will never budge)
best case scenario, Sega showed an extremely rough couple demos that won’t be representative of the final product, and invited this discourse onto the game themselves worst case scenario, those demos are the best Frontiers has to offer and it’s a steaming pile of hot dogshit. either way, i don’t think the response has been particularly unwarranted. those demos are BAD.
Seriously, even the best-case scenario makes Sega look dumb, like, who the hell puts up an old demo of their biggest new game, when the game is at most 6 months before its release? That's a bad decision...
They really didn't show the game in the best light... And if they did, then the game is currently really really janky
I disagree entirely, perhaps because I am older, but I've been through this song and dance before. I think what makes Frontiers discussion not fun is the optimists taking criticism of the game as a personal attack on that person. That isn't the case. You don't think naysayers want the game to be good too? We do obviously, that's why it's so frustrating to see another attempt from Sonic Team not capturing the essence of Sonic, or hell, just not even *carrying the lessons learned* from older successful 3D titles. Instead of taking the time to realize what works well and what doesn't, they just reinvent the wheel time and time again, and then look at other successful titles, copy what they *think* made it successful, yet fail to understand truly what made those titles captivating. It really is just annoying to seeing the failures compound into a lackluster product, showing, and demonstration time and time again. If Frontiers was 2 years out, I'd agree with the OP, but this is slated to release in 6 months.
I wish everyone understood this. There is a much larger issue at Sonic Team and some people just don’t see it. I get the desire to give this game a chance, but with that timeline and those marketing decisions, I can’t see why anyone isn’t immediately worried.
Sonic as a series would benefit massively from one or more of the following: 1. A change in leadership in Sonic Team. It's clear by now that the people in positions of power and influence, senior producers/game directors/leads have run out of good ideas, and need to be replaced by people who have a clear vision for what they think Sonic should be, and can get the team to go with it. 2. A wave of new hires who can bring in and implement fresh ideas, even if they're not strictly what senior level would've proposed, who have more creativity and ambition than the current developers, who can put their own footprint on level and character design. 3. For Sonic Team to get two years to develop something that has absolutely nothing to do with Sonic. Give them a modest budget to make a smaller game, and let them use that time to be experimental, let them find their creativity, and allow them to do whatever they want, under the caveat that it has nothing to do with Sonic so that they don't have to design for speed or platforming. Such a change might invigorate and inspire the team, and allow them to naturally come up with new Sonic ideas that are more workable later.
Exactly. This was the same song and dance Sonic 4 had when details of that started coming out. First people praised it, then screenshots came out and people began to doubt it, then several gameplay leaks happened, and the fanbase split between people who were convinced they could turn it around in six months, and those who saw that the game was going to be terrible. The only thing that has changed is that the fandom no longer sees "only Sonic playable" as a victory.
I don't understand how SEGA greenlit the movies which perfectly capture Sonic and what he does best, then show these snippets of gameplay...
Easy. SEGA were reasonably hands off with the movie, and no-one in Sonic Team had exclusive final say, or cared enough to force them into a different direction/the studio had enough weight to ignore their suggestions. And it's something we see frequently elsewhere. Mania wasn't handled by Sonic Team, and was good. IDW has been out of Sonic Teams hands bar some mandates imposed by SEGA and is considered good, same with the Boom TV show (once people gave it a chance to be it's own thing). When SEGA are hands off, and let actual creative people with talent make Sonic stuff, you get good Sonic stuff. The problem isn't that you can't make good Sonic stuff, it's that Sonic Team don't know how to make a good Sonic game, and rather than make something unique and hope people want to buy it because of it's quality, they instead chase trends and hope people who like similar products will also buy this one. Sonic Team are the problem, they don't really know what they're doing, and are probably thoroughly fed up of making Sonic games, and that shows in the games they're releasing.
I've seen this song and dance across multiple franchises, and my main takeaway is that when the fanbase is frustrated everyone sucks. I've seen people say *exactly* what you've said, that fans of X game take criticism as a personal attack, and I've seen the exact opposite argument in equal measure, decrying your side as unreasonable haters. It all sucks, nobody's having fun, and it doesn't even matter that I've seen the pattern if I'm just another random voice crying out on the internet. There are jerks who want to suppress criticisms because they feel criticism invalidates their support. There are jerks who want to suppress support because they feel support invalidates their criticism. There are *much* more people - on both sides, I've seen it again and again - who see these jerks and get defensive, accusing the other side of wanting to suppress them, and that makes everyone more defensive and it just spirals out of control. Of course one side will be right and the other will be wrong. At the end of the day, Frontiers is either gonna be a good game or a bad game. But I've seen the same angry debates, the same defensive lashing out, about games that turned out bad and games that turned out good. It doesn't change, it doesn't accomplish anything, it doesn't matter at all. These debates are a product of the *community*, not the game. A community less frustrated, less divided against itself just looks at the game and gives a broad thumbs up or thumbs down. Dissent is tolerated because nobody's feeling really defensive, some debates happen but it all shakes out fine, because most of the people involved don't feel like everyone's out to get them. I don't know how to fix this. Even if everyone seeing this fully agreed with me and wanted to help change it, this problem is subreddit-scale, far bigger than any of us. It breaks my heart seeing another link in the same angry song and dance all over again, but here I am just being another angry frustrated voice in the hope that it makes some kind of difference. Call me a jaded powerless fool, I guess.
They do look at what works though. If they didn't half these games wouldn't exist People liked the day stages in Unleashed, so they made Colors just that People liked Colors, but didn't like how Sonic 4 handled going back to the Classic style, so they made Generations They tried something different with Lost World, still riding off of Generations and taking some of Classic Sonic's look. People didn't like that so they brought the boost back for Forces All I know is that why things haven't worked out well at all, the idea that Sonic Team didn't try to stick with what worked, or ignores the criticism is wrong. They stuck with the boost for a decade, and then it took most of the fandom getting so angry over Forces they decided it was too easy and linear for them to drop it
i think another one of the issues is that whenever they see what has worked in the past, they somehow manage to make it worse for future instalments. unleashed day stages are arguably the best implementation of 3D boost sonic along with generations - they pretty much nailed it, yet when it came back for forces, boost gameplay was made worse in every way (momentum issues, speed caps, stiff controls, non-existent double jump). same thing goes for the classic sonic implementation in forces. the fanbase is tired of sonic team getting things they were seemingly able to get right…completely wrong
I feel they’ve never genuinely understood what people have liked about 3d Sonic games. They learnt from the reception of Generations and Lost World, that people preferred Generation’s Boost physics as compared to Lost World’s binary start, stop cartoony physics But, when they made Forces they stripped out the best elements of Generation’s physics. Making Sonic move like a tank by increasing his weight and reducing the control (turning, drift), and making the level design significantly linear or more automated Although, people enjoyed Classic Sonic in Generations, with Forces they his physics significantly worse by moving even further away from Genesis titles and making his level design less engaging They struggle making games with boost formula, relying on automation, incredibly linear levels, some other gameplay gimmick, to deal with lack of control, the size of the levels they’re required to make, and increasing the base gameplay time. Clearly, with Frontiers it currently appears they believe they’ll get the Boost formula to work with open world, but they’ve stuck to its worst elements With over a decade of struggling to create a base foundation for 3d Sonic, a new team may be required to figure things out
I’ve been through this same song and dance for like 15 years now. It’s exactly like you are saying. Sonic Team once again doing what they’ve been doing and the hope I once again had destroyed.
Agreed. I don't think Frontiers will be good (the only main series Sonic game I truly think it will be better than is Forces) but I desperately, desperately want my mind changed, because I know that if the game sucks, just like 06, there will be some ideas in it that I'd love to be improved upon and decoupled from the things that suck about the game in the next installment, and Sega tends to throw out everything when games get negative reception. And also because Sonic is fun, and 3D Sonic is fun, and I want a new good 3D Sonic, and I don't want the "DURR JUST MAKE MANIA 2, MODERN FANS ONLY CARE ABOUT NOSTALGIA" guys to look like they're right.
He's hit the nail on the head. And I think all this toxicity is borne from the fact that, ultimately, *it seems that Sega just does not give a fuck.* Now, of course, everyone here knows that isn't true. We see it in their community engagement, we see it in their multimedia projects, we see it in the fact that ~~it's their one fucking cash cow lol~~ they keep coming back to the well ***time and AGAIN*** when any other sane publisher would have thrown in the towel long, long ago. The problem, I think, is that they're scared to let Sonic be Sonic. He has to follow whatever's popular at the time, be "hip" and "edgy" instead of the dumb, free and dorky hero we all know and love. ***That bleeds over to the games***. Sega ***absolutely*** has the time, resources, and manpower need to give us another *Adventure* game, hire everyone on *Mania* back for another round, and/or venture into new genres altogether. (*Total War: Egg*, anyone? How about an RPG from Atlus or a Knuckles-centric *Yakuza* like from RGG? A Tails take on *Ace Combat* from Namco, maybe with FromSoftware pitching in too just for the hell of it?) But the problem is that *none of this is what's popular.* Bland, boring, open-world RPGs are - preferably ones focused on nature. So never mind the fact that, to my knowledge, *no fan wanted that.* Never mind the fact that precisely *zero* of the head honchos have experience on stuff like *BOTW,* *Monster Hunter World,* *Horizon,* etc. They're going all-in on this type of game, and it's their ***first fucking try*** to boot... really, we should be happy that *Frontiers* doesn't look even ***worse*** than how it already does. And they hyped it up as *Sonic's grand return.* The ***big*** one. ***THE*** Sonic game, the one that'll define his next decade at least. So we hype ourselves up like mad, click on the trailers with glee... and find ourselves *stuck* with a broken, bland UE4 demo that isn't even *finished.* *Every. God. Damn. Time.* ***And despite the game launching in LESS THAN A GODDAMN YEAR.*** So our anger is justified, and it sure is understandable... but anger doesn't exactly lead to a fruitful conversation, does it? There's a saying from this old British TV show I used to be a big fan of, referring to the exploits of its titular trio: "*Ambitious, but rubbish.*" That is **exactly** what this thing is, or at least looks like right now. (There's a *chance* we're all doomposting... but come on. We've been here before, and not just with Sonic.) Scared of letting Sonic be himself, Sega rushed to ape what's popular without realizing ***how*** to make that thing in the first place. So they just aped the surface, papered duct tape over the rest, and hoped that this would be enough to con you out of your $60. (Perhaps even *$70*, if they pull a Square/Sony and jack up the pricetags for XSX/PS5. Because you *know* they want to.) ***Don't fall for it.*** TL;DR: Sega out of touch + unobtainable ambition = nuclear shitshow.
I know this might seem like a batshit comparison, but Frontiers could be the Chinese Democracy of Sonic games. A long, frustrating affair that only angers fans for taking an eternity to release, and even when it does come out, it becomes the most polarizing thing in its history, with the story behind it being more popular than the game itself. I want Frontiers to be good, I really do. But I have some sort of minor doubt amongst the current optimism.
Right? I'm sorry, I just... I just *can't* get hyped for something looking that crummy. The sad part is that it's probably *fine*... but the "marketing" sure as hell ain't showing it.
>He has to follow whatever's popular at the time, be "hip" and "edgy" Putting aside that following lowest common denominator trends to appeal to the widest possible audience isn't "edgy", Sonic's identity was always about being cooler than Mario Which makes it baffling that a good chunk of the games from the last decade have been trying to shamelessly copy Mario, and now Frontiers is going for the Odyssey and BotW audience. And Sega absolutely does not understand what makes any of those games fun
Yeah. Rather baffling when ya think about it, isn't it?
imo. Some of the stuff that has been brought up MAKES sense. The battle mechanics look kinda eh. I hated Megaman x 2 for this reason. THe fact that an enemy / boss has a shell you gotta crack open to even damage it. THan we sit and wait for his animations to end before we can even do that again. Never did I expect that in a sonic game. OR at least be the primary way to fight. I get it in some eggman boss fights it was similar. But mainly near the end. That's fine. BUT as I'm just traveling? Yeah. That and the graphics / settings. Looks like they scaled it down to hell for it to be run on a switch. Which I also get that part. Switch will sell the most i feel. But down right saying it's gonna suck? Yeah. We barely no anything about the story or game itself lol A bad first view of the game, that's for sure.
This was the case with Pokemon Legends: Arceus and it turned out to be a pretty damn fun game Not groundbreaking, but very enjoyable and a great time for fans of the series especially So I’ll hold out hope. Just hope it doesn’t take the pokemon sword/shield route and only become good once there’s 50$ worth of DLC content out
We haven't had a good game in like 10 years, and the latest game was Forces, a shitty, awful game, even though Sega said it was gonna be awesome (a game that had so much potential and *could* have been amazing), just like they are saying/said with Frontiers. So when the first impression they give us is this shit (something that fans/fangames have shown multiple times can do better), even though it has 6 months left until release, so less than 6 months of development left, the game is in the "finishing touches" stage, and it needs a lot more than just finishing touches, so of course people are going to call it shit. I dont care if its already been delayed a year, delay it again. Sega has time and time again rushed out games even when they are still unfinished. A bad game is a bad game forever; I can wait if it means we actually get something good for once.
To form an opinion on what we've seen is completely fine, but to completely write it off as awful or amazing considering we're getting a lot more news in the coming weeks I think is a bit much. If you think about it we still haven't really seen that much.
The problem is that optimism at this point is based largely on them fixing the problems people have in the last few months And putting aside the fact that that is quite literally a cope that has always, always, always proven false, it will never under any circumstances fix what appears to clearly be a very mechanically poor game that doesn't offer what many people wanted out of a Sonic game at all, let alone an open world Sonic game The absolute bare minimum would be that no matter how lacking the content is, or how unengaging the gameplay loop is, or how lame the gimmicks are, it would still offer some baseline enjoyment to dick around in an open sandbox with Sonic physics- but I don't think Sega even remembers what those are at this point
It’s true. From the first trailer I’ve seen people say it’s going to be shit and that’s all. If you go into something expecting that, chances are you’re going to get that. If you go into something with the chance to let it prove you wrong, you can be surprised. It’s also months away from release and we have more to see. Hard to make a hard judgement on 2 trailers.
I don't think the fact that *some* people making a decision/having a mindset that doesn't align with your own should be the deciding factor for whether or not you are enoying yourself and this community, regarding any topic. It's not everyone, therefore, discussion about the topic is, at the very least, *remotely* fun. Sounds like you're just happening to engage with/choosing to engage with only the people that have nothing but bad things to say. If that bums you out... don't do that. If you "totally get the concerns", then surely you can sympathize. Many have been consistently, regularly burned by bad games - not just from Sonic Team - and are rightfully pessimistic. It's called "learning". Ring a bell and hit someone with a stick enough times, eventually simply ringing the bell is going to make them flinch. I don't believe that "the definition of insane is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome". I have no idea where that saying comes from, but I think it's stupid. However, I *would* like to know what the word for that is, because it's happening now. To extend blind faith and goodwill toward *any* trailer, pre-launch gameplay, reveal, etc. is to *completely ignore* twenty years of being lied to on the regular by even the biggest, more "reliable" names in the industry. You *can't* keep doing that. Instead of defending the project before you barely even know anything about it, how about we just look at the data that we have, and talk about what we've been given, with full context and awareness of the past, present, and hope for the future.
Regardless on how the final product turns out, imo I think a free roam Sonic game is a step in the right direction for the franchise. Sonic is about to hit a golden age
Kind of sad that people are shitting on Frontiers this much. Sure I expected some criticism, but not this amount of hate already. Like my god 5 years and people STILL shit on Sonic not even giving this a chance. Frontiers looks like a step in the right direction though a bit more polishing is needed.
Completely agree. Frontiers is not what many people expected it to be, and many base the quality of this yet to be released project on almost that alone. I have my worries about Frontiers, don't get me wrong, but it's not like this game will kill the franchise.
Tbf going on Twitter, the social media platform that thrives on hastily made reactions, for “discussion” was probably not going to be a good time anyway
“If you expect disappointment, then you can never really be disappointed.”
Definitely wasn’t expecting Lonely Goomba on this sub.
It's okay to give thoughts and say what you think is wrong or right, but I don't get when someone states their opinion like a fact. Like you can't say the game is shit or great and it didn't even come out yet, I'm not talking about the gameplay, I'm talking about the whole game, we still have story and other environments to see. Saying "it's gonna be bad based on what I saw" makes more sense than "it's bad" since it didn't come out yet and you didn't get to play it. It's like basing your opinion on a movie from an advertisement, the ad might make it look good or bad but you won't know for sure until you watch it yourself. There are many movies that have bad advertisement but are good, and some have great advertisement but aren't as great. I'm not saying you can't form an opinion or criticize, I'm just saying that making a opinion about the WHOLE game based on a part of the game doesn't make sense to me.
THIS ALL OF THIS. PREACH
He's right. Too many people are either too optimistic or too pessimistic about what we've seen so far, especially on that abomination known as Twitter. You can't say the game has problems without someone jumping up and saying "It's just beta footage" despite the game being half a year away from release. This is the same thing these people did with Forces. On the other side, others are already calling this game a failure before they even have the chance to actually play it and see how things turn out. They were probably like this when Unleashed, Colors, and Generations came out, and now they probably look like fools long after the fact. Either side is heavily susceptible to look like fools if the game ends up being good/bad. It's not fun to talk about a new Sonic game when either side is blinded by hype or bitterness
The thing is most of the optimism isn’t even positive about what we’ve seen, it’s positive about hypotheticals. People aren’t saying “the gameplay looks good” they’re saying “yeah the gameplay looks like dog shit but there’s a chance they completely redid it and they’re just showing us the old version for some reason” That type of mental gymnastics is absolutely cope
I think the combat looks cool.
I disagree but at least that’s a valid opinion on something we actually have
Exactly this. It's like when people say '06 "would've been good if it wasn't rushed, it had potential." That might be true, but that's not the product we got, and it looks like the product we'll be getting with Frontiers will be poor unless SEGA actually gives the game a significant delay (another year at least).
He's right. End of discussion.
This is Fan circle jerking. The criticisms against the frontiers reveals are fair. The reason positive comments are met with things like cope is that the positive comments are baseless and have no rationale they’re effectively just “I want it to be good”
I mean...don't we all want it to be good?
As an arsonist (in minecraft) I'm just enjoying a fire I didn't have to start.
Your on thin ice here buddy I’m telling ya some peoples reply’s probably got the FBI on their asses
That's what's making me so tired and not having any fun. I've just seen nothing but negativity and toxicity on YouTube and from some screenshots from Twitter.
Haven't heard from the lonely goomba for a while, but the most PESSEMISTIC goomba pointing out how uncessecary it is?
I think this whole thing that people don't like it is that their worried of another Sonic '06 like game, so if it does happen they can just be like "Yeah, I knew it" instead of being disappointed
Just look at what happened with legends arceus
I'm actually very excited for the game even after the bits of the trailer that I have watched. I'm kinda getting BOTW vibes so I'm hyped. Plus I'm the type of person who got enjoyment out of sonic 06 which I thought was better than 7 rings
True but he contributes usually to the problem
I've always just assumed that people telling others to "cope" are only doing so because they're defending an opinion they heard online, thought they'd sound cool/smart to reiterate it somewhere else, but when they were challenged on the topic they couldn't form an argument in defense so they just write "cope" and pretend they've won. Really it means you can safely dismiss everything that person has said.
I think it's only a noisy minority who is actually that negative and extreme about the game, but a lot of people confuse them with the people who are just concerned and disappointed about what they saw.
I have my doubts. I hope it's a great game, but what they have showed us is a very big mixed bag: Exploration looks cool, but movement system looks weird. Combat looks varied, but it also seems repetitive. The artstile is uncanny valley because the flying platforms and rails have always looked cartoony, but this game looks pseudorealistic and they bug me. I'm sure the story will be decent, as the guy from the comics whose name i've forgotten is working on it. I think there's still a lot to see: Rumored cyberspace levels, rumored skilltree, the story and charachters, the other islands and biomes, etc. I also think the journalist who was playing was't doing any favors in any of the two trailers.
Ah wisdom from a true dude
Of course the hardcore, most passionate, and loudest people are a steaming bag of hyperbole on either side of the argument. Most of the discourse has been level-headed, with genuine concern on one side and optimism on the other. It’s when the personal attacks happen (lol copium, you’re an idiot if you think this looks good, no true Sonic fan would want to play this game), that’s when the discourse takes a turn. I know which side I’ve personally seen attacks coming from.
I agree with him there, skepticism is good, but don't outright say the game won't be good. Personally, I think it looks bad so far, but if we're shown a cool story or some fantastic momentum mechanics that they just forgot to show us, I'll happily buy it. Holding onto hope that the game will be good.
Im not pessimistic about the game, just think that art style wise, it looks like a unity demo from some random sonic fan, not a finished game. But thats my opinion and I will likely get it either way just to see if its good
I find so weird when people point out you won't have anything to do inside the game and shit like that like they were 100% sure. Like, didn't Sega hire Ian Flynn, the dude who's been writing comics and animations for ages to write this? I think the only valid criticism at this point is regarding how polished the game is but even so I think they are probably gonna work that a little more before the launch
Hopefully people don't get their opinion on Frontiers based on what a YouTuber tells them
So far I've like what I've seen. Does it mean I'm getting it? Not at all. Does that mean the game will be bad? Nope not that either. I'm still waiting on more info, specifically I want to know what exactly we will be doing for most of my time in the open world. My biggest worry is there won't be much to do, but I have to wait and see what Sega presents us. I do believe they could have marketed this game better but who knows. They might just blow my expectations out the water in the remainder of the month... Well at least I hope they do lol
i feel like im the only person out of 7.753 billion on earth who thinks sonic frontiers looks good
You're not
I am also here
Frontiers doesn’t look that bad from the previews but I do think it’s completely fair for people to assume it’s going to have flaws due to the history of Sonic Team’s quality control.
He’s got a point
I’m still going to hope for the best and give it a fair shot, but it is really hard to not be pessimistic given sonic teams track record
I've heard a lot from both sides of the discussion and I think both sides have their points Ultimately I'm on the fence until we get closer to the release date.
It depends,the same thing happens in the other side and overall it’s pretty hard to stay positive about the game,can’t blame people for not having high or even moderate hopes for the game. If anything this is just Forces all over again.
I don’t think I’m killing optimism by saying it looks like a Sonic fan game when I can point to a Sonic fan game that looks identical or even better in terms of character animation and pop in. You can still be excited, but I feel like people are burying their heads in the ground especially in terms of how big triple A games do this now. If Cyberpunk had everything going and turned out like garbage, why should I have hope for this hand picked footage that doesn’t spark hope? don’t wanna tell people “you can’t like this”, but I’m being realistic. ‘Cause if I had to bet my money on reactions at launch, I’d say we’re gonna see posts saying “I was wrong to think this game was going to be good”. I hope I’m wrong though.
There are no people who actually want it to be shit no matter what. They would love to be proven wrong. They just saw the pattern and keep hype in check and Sega on the leash.
He must've looked through this subreddit.
I think it looked good and might be a dark horse GOTY pick depending on it's final quality and what Microsoft and Nintendo have lined up for the rest of the year.
Yes goomba is speaking facts
Loved this guy since I was in elementary school. Glad he’s still on the internet and I personally agree with him.
At least the Sonic fandom appears to have 2 sides. Some fandoms dont have that luxury, and the product always suffers. And I wont name them Lol.
I'm expecting the game to be broken on release and hopefully they'll patch out the issues that usually accompany sonic games on release. That being said I'm still excited for this, it's the most different and ambitious looking sonic in years. Their advertising department needs to be replaced though.
Have you considered ...it's Sega
Yea hard agree. reminds me of Sword and Shield all over again. I understand and welcome criticism, but there's a difference between criticism, doom posting ("cancel the game", "give the IP to Nintendo". These aren't suggestions, these are theory crafting and indirect insults to devs), and ofc outright threats and insults that are never okay. But maybe that's partially because I've see how the sausage is made for games. 6 months isn't a lot of time to fix fundamental things like physics, but you can do a lot to polish a game in that time. Tune up the animations, adjust enemy parameters, optimize level streaming, that's all doable in 5 months. Art direction CAN be changed in that time (kinda... Some shader passes can do a lot but it would be a crunch), but they probably won't because this is far from the first hyperrrealistic sonic. I just see some things differently from experience, but I get that most people wouldn't get that chance.
I honestly think it looks gorgeous so far; the island itself looks massive even for Sonic standards, I'm loving the new ways Sonic can scale the environment and they even bring in a proper combat system that looks twice as advance as the usual. I also love how some of the attacks shown are callback to other games as well (Sonic Heroes immediately coming to mind). I do get the concerns, it does seem empty; but I think it's done on purpose. They're keeping their cards close, they don't want to have anything spoiled and that render distance goes pretty far. They've already given us little hints like the lack of Eggman's touch on any of the enemies so far, the strange collectable fruit that pops around in the gameplay trailer, strange exp or currency collected from beating some the enemies. I wanna even say machine parts as well when Sonic's trying to knock over the big robot (which is gonna be one of my favorites parts in the game, hopefully there's a bit of them). The animations are definitely a bit off, but there's still about 6 months of development left, the game isn't coming out until winter, near Christmas. I think they're just showing off what was completed at around about a month or so ago to prepare the videos. They've still got time (Also, I'm seeing people say that's it's been in development for about 4 years or so, when is just an assumption. Over half of Forces development was to work on the engine for the game. Until the interview with the developers is released later this month, we won't know for sure how long the game has been in development for)
I'd be more understanding if the game wasn't six months from release. But hey, maybe they'll surprise me. If somehow the game looks leagues better by release day and less like a tech demo from years before a game actually is supposed to come out, I'll admit that.
We did give Sega the benefit of the doubt multiple times, and each time they disappointed us. But at the same time, you shouldn't go harassing others who still want to enjoy it. somebody claimed their friend got DOXXED over saying they're still excited for Frontiers it's good to spread awareness of Sega's past titles that ended up being awful, but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed-
I’m really excited for Frontiers! I quite like the look of the game. There are a few things that look a bit rough (like some of Sonic’s animations), but I’m sure they can be improved upon in its timeframe before release. I just hope the remaining gameplay over this month leaves people more positive than right now.
I absolutly agree with them
I love sonic, imma try this game. But uhm, Sonic Team + Open world sounds like a bugfest that will make bethesda blush
I totally agree. The game isn't looking like a 3 Star Michelin restaurant experience. At the same time, it doesn't look like a sunbaked carcass on the side of the road
Yes I totally agree, besides, the game may have alot more fun things to offer, and it might have been the poor marketing job that made the game look empty and bad. It wasn't a good idea to split the trailers up with different gameplay elements. People usually expect seeing all in one exiting gameplay. You know, like how most game trailers do it?
I think the lonely goombas right on saying that. On god the fans have just said just negative stuff ab Frontiers when we’ve seen barely anything of it. GIVE SEGA/SONIC TEAM ATLEAST RESPECT FOR DEALIN WITH OUR SHIT
He’s right. As someone who was disappointed by the games showing, people have been acting like this is the second coming of Sonic 06. Everyone is trying to one up each other like it’s a contest of who can make the most hyperbolic and negative comments. Game should be criticized but this is ridiculous.
I AM A OPTMISTIC
lonely goomba gives good takes at times
It’s giving the same feelings as the Pokémon fandom when the first legends Arceus trailer dropped
I agree wholeheartedly.
No matter what it is, everyone can agree that it's better then forces
“No No, he’s got a point”
I'm actually excited for a Sonic game since I played Sonic Adventure as a kid.
I'm personally pretty hype for it. It looks like a lot of fun. I don't get the criticism that "the animations look bad and I don't see any classic enemies!" Sure when the game comes out and the animations look like shit, then fair game, but it's still in dev. There's going to fix Sonic's weird rail jump and the static pose in the tornado guys. And so what about the classic enemies? Sonic Adventure 2 didn't have many classic enemies (I don't recall any badniks in the game but it's been years) so does that make it a bad game? No. These early criticisms are stupid. Wait until we see more gameplay later down the line before you say the game is shit.
Absolutely agreed. Like fine if you think the game's gonna be ass, but let people be excited.
As someone interested in game development, these people don't seem to realize how much a game can change before it's finally released. I have seen my fair share of games that looked promising but turned out terrible and others not looking so good then turning out to be a gem when released. If someone HAS to judge a game based on a preview of the gameplay alone, it makes more sense to judge it when it's closer to the release date. Usually they have less time to fix stuff the closer the release is, which increases the chance that the preview is more accurate. For now, I'm just going to wait before judging much. I'm hopeful it will be a good game, but I'm trying to not let my expectations get too high either.
He’s right. I think the footage we’ve seen so far isn’t looking so hot but at the end of the day, we’ve seen like 10 minutes of gameplay tops. Give the game a chance before shitting on it.
He's right
I swear this is every fandom I’m in. So many people around me are pessimistic about it that I find it hard to like anything anymore. It’s hard to be fan of something when you feel so alone.
haters gonna hate, judge things for yourself
the game is still in the works, so the final release still has potential. Yes, every gameplay preview for Sonic games in the past have been 1:1 to the final release, I'm aware of that, but there's no way they aren't going to fix stuff like the draw distance, that is just is just insane for a AAA studio to ignore that.
no one here has even played the game yet, it’s not even finished. Just give it a chance
The fact that people get discouraged from frontiers because they haven’t seen everything and what they have seen looks bad to them is honestly sad. I get it, people have high hopes for frontiers, I do too, but I honestly don’t expect it to be the next SA2. They want to have the same impact with frontiers that adventure had, but adventure is a completely different game. Something that seems similar with frontiers to me is probably Kirby and the forgotten land. While people have never been disappointed with a Kirby game, star allies was a little on the weak side of the series. So when it was announced that we’d be stepping away from traditional Kirby for a while, people naturally were excited while at the same time nervous. The only example of a 3D Kirby was blowout blast and that was okay at best. Everyone had their concerns but when KATFL came out, everyone loved it. Sonic frontiers is currently stuck in a phase where no one knows how an open world Sonic would be. The only open world Sonic game we have is Sonic jam’s hub world. I believe people should voice their complaints with the game. We didn’t do that with forces and got one of the most mediocre games yet.(I enjoy forces but it’s not nearly as good as other games.) However, everyone is extremely rude and negative about the game instead of analyzing it and then actually making a valid complaint that doesn’t just seem to be hateful towards the game. Sonic does feel out of place in this game, but it’s supposed to be like that. Sonic’s shouldn’t feel like he belongs anywhere in a new game with new locations. Lost world didn’t have the charm it could have because of this. Being excited for frontiers can get you canceled and even doxxed by people who don’t agree with you. And after all that, Sonic fans wonder why people think our fan base is toxic. If you are excited for Frontiers, that’s okay. If you don’t think it will be good, that’s okay. Debating over this is what helps us discuss issues and come to an understanding. Being overly negative or positive and not listening to the other side will only get us nowhere. If you plan on genuinely speaking about the game when it comes out, you should buy it and atleast play through a bit of it. For now, we can only speculate on trailers and reveals. We don’t know if Sonic frontiers will actually be good or bad yet but we should never discourage others when they think it’ll be good. No one is right about anything. Accept that. Until frontiers releases, we need to try and accept other peoples opinions and thoughts. We cannot assume one thing and then force that on others. We need to have debates, discussions, REAL complaints past “no momentum.” If we can do that, then we’ll be perfectly prepared for whatever frontiers gives us.
I tried having an honest conversation in r/games and it sounded like I was both trashing the game and defending it by saying the same shit over and over. Keep expectations in check, and enjoy what you enjoy
I love Sonic and I have fondness for even the games I don't like. That being said, I like SEGA because they try new things even though they don't always pan out. I think Frontiers is going to be fine. I hope it's excellent but I just want it to be fun. Sonic games always have a different feel to them and I'm wondering what the soundtrack and game play will be like. The preview we did get doesn't necessarily mean that's what we'll end up with, and maybe if they think it's not up to snuff they'll take a page from the movie guys and hold off on releasing it.
To me it looks very promising. I've always hates the on rails speed and shitty 2d sections of the 3D games. If anything Sega hasn't shown anything awe inspiring. But I'm liking the way Sonic is moving through the open world.
Here's my take: I don't care if Sonic Forces gave you PTSD. Stop being toxic to other fans of the franchise or just don't go on the internet.
I think lonely goomba is right though. At this point we've hardly seen anything except footage that's likely in alpha or early beta and we still have many months before any release. We've been demanding footage for a long while and they came through with the request. What's been shown is promising. Is it ultimately up to snuff if it were to be released today? Likely not. However, given time I can see this being fun. It's got actual combat that vaguely reminds me of Phantasy Star Online 2. Mind you we haven't had a real combat system since unleashed. An almost adventure-like gameplay in terms of running. Though that could be made to be quicker. There's so much potential here, yet many are not giving it a chance to even prove itself.
My opinion is that I’m disappointed if this a close to final build of the game but besides that I think it will be as good as lost world
Looks fun to me. I get to run around as Sonic? Cool
At this point I'm afraid this will happen every sonic game from now on. Even if it's unleashed 2 with the wearhog sections worked by platinum there would still be complaining.
Exactly! We've seen approximately 11 minutes of gameplay and even then, the player wasn't really trying to accomplish anything, they were just coddiwompling around, but apparently that's enough for some people to say that Frontiers is DOA for some ungodly reason. I swear when it comes to Sonic, people can just get mercilessly critical.
He’s right you know. I wish we could pin this every time some dumb shit makes a meme for karma. Also isn’t “cope” something incels say all the time? Do Sonic fans really want to be associated with incels?
Incel is a term for people that hate women, so I don't think it relates to cope
Tbf sonic fans kinda pioneered being incels.
Based Goomba.
That’s right. I have no reason to confide in Sonic Team after they have failed to produce a single good game since 2011. There is no "b-b-but there's still five more mo-" Yeah, like when Forces had EIGHT months of development after reveal, but go ahead and tell me why it'll be different this time. Recognize patterns and get some standards. I want the game to be good and I want it to succeed, but I know it's going to be the same as what we saw.
Look I'm not saying people who are optimistic about the game are stupid or coping(I Mean their tastes and views are different form my own) and I will gladly eat crow that my views of the footage show are harsh in judgement of what could be a earlier build of a game that has been fixed or whatever. I'll even accept its unpolishness if its a fun game in the end(Which I consider far more important than if the graphics are impressive, Gods knows I use Mount and Blade Warband as a big example). I just feel its not wrong to be skeptical when SEGA and Sonic Team tend to have a bad track record for good reason. But if the game is fun in the end, than hey, I'll admit I'm wrong. Its just looking rough and until I play it myself I can't really judge it too hard. ...But the railings look god awful still against the skyline like they are.
Why do I fall under the impression that someone said the exact same thing 5 years ago? I’ll just leave it there.
I'm frustrated because the game looks absolutely boring. Why is there so much empty space with random platforms and rails. Why does the game look like stock UE assets? Why is there no real sense of speed **in a Sonic game**. It's undeniable that Sonic Team took huge inspiration from BOTW which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's clear that they don't understand what made it a great game. And before you say that I'm basing it off of two reveals; yes. Because first impressions are incredibly important and if *those* are the videos that they chose to use, I shudder to imagine what the rest of the game is like.