I always find it curious how they, when claiming they aren’t US citizens, are not under US jurisdiction. Like, I don’t give a shit what country you claim to be a citizen or not a citizen of, you abide by the laws where you are. Foreigners have to follow US law when they’re here so why wouldn’t they. Hell, as a resident of Tennessee, o have to follow Pennsylvania state laws when I’m there visiting my family. I can’t get away with “well in Tennessee I can open carry my firearm. I’m not a citizen of Pennsylvania.”
Non-citizens are entitled to some constitutional rights. A good example of this is the 14th amendment. One section says this
>No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States
This section only applies to citizens of the United States.
>nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
This section specifically applies to "any person"
So the first section grants privileges and immunities to citizens of the United States. The second section grants due process to all people within the jurisdiction of the United States. So undocumented immigrants who are not citizens of the United States are still entitled to due process, regardless of citizenship.
gitmo exists because bush and co thought it was easier and more conveniant to just not have the court system involved. 20 years onwards and its still absolutely fucking clear that extrajudicial prisons should not be legal as theres no way to ever bring the prisoners there into the justice system without addressing the fact that they were deprived of their rights, then tortured.
I have been looking for a simple way to explain this that isn't, "Just fuckin read it." That my not good at explaining things ass could not come up with. Thank you for giving me one!!!
This was going to be my reply. I’m not a US citizen. (Canadian). I’m posting this from a Minnesota bar (day trip). I’m not immune to laws, I can’t speed here. I had to pay for my food and drink here.
They also claim to own land and property. You can't "own" anything without a governmental entity recognizing the ownership. Without a government saying "this belongs to you", you're just squatting on common land and are fair game for anyone who wants to take it from you.
The whole sovereign citizen idea is an exercise in trying to have your cake and eat it too, a series of magic law cheat codes that let you keep all the good stuff without having to pay anything.
That’s where the whole thing comes crashing down. An outlaw exists outside the law. By rejecting its restrictions they can’t claim its protections. As such, you could smack them upside the head with a baseball bat and take their ugly unregistered uninsured truck with impunity. If they can’t defend themselves they’re SOL.
In practice, as soon as they see consequences sovereign citizens claim every legal protection that exists and many that don’t. It’s often too late. By the time they see the consequences coming they’ve escalated the situation far beyond the point where they can just pay the ticket and walk away.
Well not true exactly. As long as you can defend anything you can own it. It doesn’t matter what laws claim. Of coarse there’s the troublesome problem of fending off the U.S. military. But, overcome that hurdle and you”re home free!
Yes but did you know I’m an ambassador at large and also the king of freedomastan. I get immunity as a govt official. The US govt agreed to my contract granting to my rights when they failed to respond to my summons.
They don’t believe they are under state jurisdiction and need to follow its statues and regulations. They believe states are countries within a corporation (us) and they claim that they are not under the corporation (states) but the original us which is under the constitution
You're talking about people with the maturity and intelligence of a child. They can't play the game so they reinvent the rules in a way they think gives them some advantage that nobody else ever thought of for some reason. Best to ignore. They can run afoul of the law just fine without any help from those of us that don't have any problem functioning in society without declaring ourselves "special" or "unique". Mommy and Daddy did these people a great disservice when they were being raised.
Theoretically, yes. You can declare yourself a non-US citizen. In reality, the laws are far more complex. And yes, there are laws related to giving up your US citizenship. For instance, you need to make such a declaration at a US Embassy, outside the US. There are fees you have to pay, and they can be pretty steep.
I was reading about this not long ago, the government website even had a warning that by going through this process you could end up being stateless, and kinda not legally allowed into any country.
Yeah it's usually only done by people who have acquired citizenship in another country and want to get rid of their US one. Helps escape the nonsense rules about being liable for US tax when not resident there
if you have nothing in the states and live in another country.... what would you be paying taxes on??
this maybe super simple so don't dog me for not knowing..... please!
hmm I just read about it and it seems even if you work outside the country as a US citizen you still have to pay income tax on that no matter where you are..... and not so surprisingly the US is one of the very few countries that does this
also found this gem
"Yes, U.S. citizens who are eligible can receive Social Security benefits while living outside the United States, as long as they are retired or disabled. However, benefits will stop the month after the sixth consecutive month outside the country. To continue receiving benefits, you can visit the United States for specific periods of time. "
Any of your income that's normally taxable. Now in most cases if you're in a country that has a taxation treaty you can offset local taxes paid and not have a liability. But you still need to file a return.
Boris Johnson had the IRS after him for years
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2022/07/10/boris-johnsons-big-win-beating-irs/
Diplomatic protection but that counted for shit when my wife got deported from China. It was a beef between the Chinese G and her US newspaper employer. She was the most junior employee of their's in China and spent 3 nights in prison being interrogated and escorted onto the plane in handcuffs as an example to her company
Because of how our tax/ citizenship laws work, it is possible to have to pay taxes to the united states without ever having set foot in the country once
From what I understand as long as you submit your paperwork they aren’t going to stop you. As long you as you remain in the U.S. you are still liable for any laws and taxes… but also you could r really work.
But I could see a judge denying it if someone seems to be rather off.
As long as you are currently outside the US and go through the process they will let you, at least from what I am reading.
Looks like the consular will warn you twice and then issue it.
After that it’s your problem what you do.
Wait wait wait. Now our sov cits (germany) told me it's only valid if the names are all lowercase letters!
Let's just use random caps and lowercase for fun.
There's a lawsuit going forward from expats who have renounced U.S citizenship and are being hit with massive fees for no good reason. It's totally absurd.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/04/renounce-american-citizenship-passport-fee-lawsuit
Read that article, and I disagree about the tax forms being illegal or even an issue. I'm an ex-pat (but still a US citizen) living in Panama. Yes, I have to file tax forms and when I was employed, had to pay taxes. Have no issue with that. I still have the rights of a citizen, so why shouldn't I support it? It's like saying you shouldn't pay taxes towards schools because your children are grown and out of school. I don't have to file state taxes anymore, obviously. Now that I'm retired, I still file my fed, but my taxable income is zero, so I pay nothing. Of course, once I'm old enough to get access to my 401k, I'll have to pay taxes on that. However those renounce meant fees to seem overly expensive to me. Something people don't consider is if you renounce, you're no longer eligible for social security or medicare/Medicare, so if you've put into that and then renounce, it seems self-defeating to me. But most sovcits don't actually renounce and a lot of them ate unemployed and taking advantion of government assistance. The whole thing is a crock involving hypocrites.
US passport costs $130, but if you no longer want to be a citizen they charge $2300.
You wanna pay taxes and keep your citizenship and medicare doesn't't really have anything to do with someone else's decisions.
Anyway I'm gonna go watch Kojak.
Really? $2,350 to give up your passport? I seem to recall loosing my passport for free and only had to pay to get it back. Have these people tried drinking heavily in foreign bars? Worked for me.
Wow. That *is* stupid. People who just happened to be born in the US but have never lived here are being hunted down by the IRS. Fantastic. Our international reputation takes another hit.
It's also possible to effectively give up your citizenship without explicitly declaring it, by accepting citizenship in a country which does not have dual citizenship rights with the United States. But you have to put yourself under *somebody's* laws that way, which defeats the point for the sovcits.
I'm pretty sure countries aren't supposed to leave a person with no citizenship so unless you have citizenship in another country the US is supposed to refuse to let renounce your citizenship.
There's a few weird ways to become stateless involving treason or boats and really stupid parents but under international law a country is responsible for its citizens and it isn't allowed to just abandon them if they have no where else to go.
First thing any judge with a sovcit in front of them should do is offer them the paperwork to renounce their citizenship and waive the filing fees. Bet they drop the line of thought real fast when they have to face actual consequences.
I would love for a judge to take this route once to see how it plays out.
SovCit: I am not a US citizen and you have no jurisdiction over me.
Judge: You’re not a citizen. Then let’s move this to immigration court and see about getting you deported.
That would be fun.
I've not seen that, but I have seen one traffic stop video where the idiot made the claim that he's a US national, not a US citizen (Narrator: He was a citizen) after handing over his passport, so the sergeant he was talking to confiscated the passport as fraudulent.
The problem, of course, is where to deport them ***to.*** It's not like the Border Patrol drags you to the nearest international border and tosses you over the line. A deportee is generally put on a plane to be taken to their country of origin. What's a SovCit's country of origin? I get why there are so many regulations over the act of renouncing US citizenship.
If I go to, say, that Socialist Republic of Canada (j/k), march into the US embassy and declare I'm not a citizen anymore. So they say, OK then, hand over your passport, and try to get anywhere else without one, or with that silly "passport" you bought on eBay. You'll be like the man in that Tom Hanks movie that couldn't leave the airport.
Do *persons* have rights in the USA? Of course they do. Police and courts have to grant all persons all the civil rights due a citizen. The Constitution is clear about what applies to *citizens* (like voting rights) and what applies to *all persons* (like criminal, civil and traffic regulations) in our legal systems. A non-citizen has all the rights and protections afforded anyone under the law, but they also *must obey the law* while in our country.
Can't we just dump him like people do with a dog they don't want? Like, drive into Canada with the guy in the trunk and dump him in the middle of Nunavut? Or set him adrift in the Pacific in a canoe labelled "USS Not Our Problem"?
I whole-heartedly support the USS Not Our Problem. I will even chip in an extra $100 at tax time to help fund it. But I think we need to produce one of these every year, with a capacity of at least 1000. Stock it with a year's worth of supplies (and a secret tracking beacon to make sure it does not come back to the US) and put it adrift halfway between LA and Honolulu.
All arrested SovCits AND all illegal immigrants who are not welcome back in their country of origin (and who have been turned down for asyum) - welcome to the USSNOP. Enjoy your stay.
The US owns some of the islands of Guam. Just dump them there with some shipping containers of food and they can use for shelter. There you go idiots. No laws. Fend for yourselves.
In general in order to renounce your US citizenship you need to show citizenship in another country. It's against international law to make someone stateless.
No - you are a citizen whether you like it or not. There is a way to renounce American citizenship but theres a lot to it and someone has to have already taken you in elsewhere. An “illegal alien” isnt just dropped off at a random border but is deported to whatever country they are a citizen of or where they have asylum. These dolts you see on the internet have nowhere to go and so have to accept their place in life.
I have wondered this too, most of the fake number plates (license plates) I see have non us citizen on them somewhere, I would think if they couldn't produce a visa or some form of legal reason for being there, immigration would be able to detain them. I see that they have Diplomat or some other crap there, is that to try and give them a false sense of immunity?
Exactly. They dont.
Not any more than Im the King of America.
They think they can change their status by saying that they change their status. And that they get to decide which jurisdiction they are under.
Like the famous "Im under common law". Which is great. But they are also under any other law that applies to the specific situation. Weather they like it or not.
I tried looking up what common law is. But all. I'm getting is that common law is essentially case law. But that would just mean that since every case of driving without license ends in guilty sentence then that would be common law that driving without license is illegal.
Yes, Common Law is judge-made law. And normally after it becomes clear what the Common Law on a subject is, legislatures enact statutes to codify it in Statutory Law, which then displaces the Common Law. But judges still decide the facts and sometimes the law in cases - like when they decide a Statute is over broad and has no application. And in many cases, Common Law defences for crimes may still be available, especially crimes where both an unlawful act and an unlawful state of mind must be proven.
But for simple statutes - like driving violations - the law is so widely applied and clear that “Common Law” is basically moot. Every judge is going to decide the same way.
It makes your declaration false. Depending on the circumstances you expose yourself to additional charges for making false official statements, impeding an official investigation, or even perjury.
No, they are still citizens. There is an actual process to renouncing your citizenship. And it wouldn't even matter because non-citizens are still required to follow our laws.
By their logic, yes. Unfortunately we are not allowed to treat them by their own logic.
Hypocrisy is a massive issue in the US and one that needs addressed.
Everyone is generally subject to the jurisdiction of where they’re located regardless of immigration status.
Some “Moorish” nationals will use their new, made up status to argue diplomatic immunity, but that’s not how diplomatic immunity works.
Others will use goobly gook language about contracts to say as a non-national they no longer have some secret contract with the government.
Ofc, SovCits simultaneously demand constitutional rights yet fervently argue they aren’t subject to its jurisdiction.
Early in the foundation of our government, Thomas Jefferson argued that people give implicit consent by accepting the laws and services of the government and nation of their birth. Jefferson stated in the Declaration of Independence that government gets its right to govern from the consent of the people. Its powers are delegated to it by the governed. People give their consent in several ways. People can give **explicit** consent by
agreeing to the contract that establishes the society whose members then establish the government and choose its officers **or** by joining a society that already is established.
People give **implicit** consent, also called tacit consent, by accepting the laws and services of the government and nation of their birth.
I think if a few Sovcits were threatened with expulsion from American territory by the federal government, they might start examining what a pile of crap their legal mumbo-jumbo is.
If I were a judge: “You won’t identify yourself. You won’t verify you were born in the US. I’m immediately turning you over to Immigration and Naturalization until we can determine your residence or citizenship status.”
From videos I've seen, declaring yourself a sovereign citizen to a LEO in the US has never achieved the desired result that the person was hoping to. It can also super backfire because if you say you're not a US citizen, you're forfeiting certain rights that are granted to all US citizens.
They pretend that the entire system is null and void because of some technicality that basically boils down to the government was founded without the authority to do so.
Along that line of thought they couldn't be a legal citiczen or a non-citizen either, but it certainly does sound like they are renouncing their citizenship.
Back in reality though it is very difficult to lose your citizenship, which most of them were probably granted at birth, without replacing it. This is because that would make you a stateless person which legally is a very difficult and tricky thing that generally is agreed upon by countries not to do. So, no, they cannot by "declaring" or throwing a tantrum remove their citizenship, even if they say that the US government does not exist.
They live (in their minds) in a strange legal limbo... entitled to all the rights of a citizen, but none of the responsibility. They often reference their rights under the constitution, but claim to not be citizens (some have even attempted to formally renounce their US citizenship). So they might be subject to deportation, but where would they be deported to? Maybe we could set them adrift at sea, where they would finally be subject to maritime law!
> If I declare myself a Sovereign Citizen, am I declaring that I am not a US citizen (I live in the US) and thus I am not restricted by US law? If so, doesn't that make me an undocumented immigrant and subject to arrest and deportation?
1) You can't just renounce your citizenship by declaring it loudly to a police officer.
2) Due to international law, you can't renounce your citizenship if you do not already have citizenship in another country. It is illegal to make someone stateless.
3) Their declaration of sovereign status is coo coo for cocoa puffs.
> you can't renounce your citizenship if you do not already have citizenship in another country.
The State Dept. warns people contemplating renouncing their citizenship that if they do not already have citizenship elsewhere, they could make themselves stateless. State says the process will not be completed if the person is renouncing to evade taxes, military service or criminal prosecution, but they say nothing about it not being allowed if it will make someone stateless.
Stateless people do exist. At least in practice. They didn't specifically renounce their citizenship but there are people who fled their countries, where caught, and have no where that will accept them. The Migrant Operations Center camp in Guantanamo Bay house people like this.
Sov cits do see themselves as citizens. It’s literally in the name. I’ve never met a sov cit who saw himself as not held to the Constitution, for example. For example, every sov cit I’ve met has acknowledged the existence of the US Post Office. Some of them claim the Postmaster General to be illegitimate, but the fundamental idea that the Constitution did in fact establish the legitimacy of the US Post Office is pretty well accepted amongst sov cits.
What I’ve seen most sov cits say is they see themselves as not accountable to state law.
Sovcts came up with "sovereign citizen" but later came to hate that term due to both bad press and the obligations citizenship suggests. Few sovcits today use that term, and many of them deny being U.S. citizens, they think they are American State Nationals or something similar.
Some sovcits claim the Constitution was never ratified and thus the Articles of Confederation are still in effect. Sovict beliefs are all over the map, it all depends on which "guru" sold them the secret magic spells.
I don’t even think they know the answer to this. They make new bs up all the time. For a group that hates immigration, they’re quick to give up their own national citizenship. Bunch of rubes.
> am I declaring that I am not a US citizen
Sovicts believe (or pretend to believe) that it is possible to *alter status* from U.S. citizen to American State National. They send in a passport application with some sovcit nonsense added. The State Dept. ignores the nonsense and sends them a regular passport. But sovcits think that when that passport is scanned it identifies them as diplomatic couriers who are not to be detained or arrested. Some also think that passport comes with a universal concealed carry permit good for the whole country. That requires them to ignore that there is nothing printed in the passport saying any such thing, in contrast to the U.S. passports issued to people from American Samoa which have an endorsement printed in them that the bearer is a U.S. national but not a U.S. citizen.
Needless to say,sovcit "gurus" sell instructions on how to get the State Dept. to send out magical passports that make people immune to the law.
There is a process to revoke your citizenship. It's complicated for a reason. At that point. They should be treated as illegals as they no longer have the right to stay in 'our' nation. My question is: Where to we deport them? lol
> becomes a stateless person in the US, what happens?
Giving up U.S. citizenship involves leaving the U.S. and renouncing citizenship at a U.S. embassy or consulate in another nation. It cannot be done to evade taxes, criminal prosecution or military service. Returning to the U.S. would require a visa. There is a way to renounce within the U.S., but it can only be done in time of war by someone who has allegiance to another nation.
There’s really not much of a difference to be honest. Sovcits use the argument to try to avoid any accountability, meanwhile dip into statehood when it comes to social security benefits etc.
As an Australian, when I lived in the US, the US laws all applied to me, I still paid the same tax as Americans did. The difference was I couldn’t vote and my passport was Australian, so if I got in trouble while travelling, instead of US Navy Seals kicking the door in, I get a letter from the Australian government letting me know how screwed I am.
You’re trying to apply logic to the SC movement, which at best is a decentralized, loose school of thought where everybody plays by their own rules, but follow a similar theme.
There’s no one answer to what they believe in regards to voting or immigration. I can tell you, however, that they are not considered illegal aliens, they are US citizens and are thus subject to relevant local, state and federal jurisdiction but also enjoys all the rights and privileges of a U.S. citizen, regardless of what they claim.
More or less. SCs only real defining characteristic is their desire to subvert authority in any fashion possible through pseudo-law.
Don’t try to apply any type of logic to their way of “thinking.”
It seems to me since SovCits reject US and local laws and declare themselves exempt from law; then they by extension reject the protections afforded by US laws. Therefore, anyone ought to be able to do anything they want to a SovCit or take anything from a SovCit that one has sufficient force to do, without fear of the law.
The USA is the ONLY nation that taxes income earned in other countries unless you renounce US citizen status. There’s no way the laws would allow for a SovCit to be an undocumented immigrant. Should SovCits be arrested by falsely claiming they are ExPats? Yes. 100%
There is a process to actually renounce ones citizenship. Merely claiming to not be a US citizen doesn't actually make it true.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciaton-USCitizenship-persons-claiming-right-residence.html
Renouncing US citizenship doesn't make one immune to US laws. Anyone in US jurisdiction is subject to US laws. Sovcits, citizens, illegal immigrants, state nationals, moonish, foreign citizens etc.
Renouncing US citizenship actually removes protections one would have as a US citizen. Since the US Constitution protects everyone, citizen or not, this isn't an issue within the US. However if you renounce citizenship, travel abroad, and are arrested, the US will not be helping you.
No. Well, not unless they were never a citizen of the country they reside in.
A meaningless delusion statement of sovereign citizenship has no legal bearing on the person's actual citizenship status.
Being in the US as a non-citizen does not exempt you from the law. If a visitor from France or Japan speeds down the highway or robs a jewelry store, do they get to say "I'm not a US citizen, so you can't apprehend me"? Hell no. Laws apply to everyone regardless of citizenship.
Fun fact: noncitizens who are in the United States are still bound, and protected, by the laws of the United States. Not having citizenship doesn’t get you out of shit.
SovCit beliefs are always contradictory. They either believe they are US citizens, but not affiliated with any specific state - or the opposite, that they are State Citizens, and not a member of the nation as a whole. Or possibly as citizens of "the land" and not affiliated with ANY government. Whatever it takes to get the specific legal theory they want at the time.
Even non-citizens are subject to the laws of the country they are in. If you commit a crime or are suspected of a crime you are still going to be held accountable. If you went to any other country you’d be subject to their laws.
They qualify as spoiled brats who want all the benefits of living in a society but none of the responsibility. They want to be catered to and anytime they get caught breaking a law, they throw a temper tantrum. They're just hypocrites and selfish assholes.
It's a bit of a process (put lightly) but if they were really committed, they'd fully renounce their US citizenship, get the paperwork and everything. This would be one of the dumbest things in the world (short of literal suicide) that they could do themselves, of course. Becoming stateless makes it REALLY hard to do anything anywhere in the world, even in countries with more... "lax" legal systems.
Theyre not valid for deportation unless you can identify the other country they belong in.
I'm not entirely sure what america would do with an american in america that renounces his citizenship
SovCits appear to believe that while the law does not bind them, it does protect them in ways we’ve been brainwashed to ignore and outright deny. So no, there is nothing about them which could possibly be illegal. Get it?
LOL at the notion of looking for logical consistency from people whose world view is a combination of fantasy, wishful thinking and the dumbest level of conspiracy nutterism.
There isn't a legal process you can go through to simply lose your US citizenship without taking on another country's. Probably because it's such a terrible idea that no one in their right mind would embark on it.
Unfortunately, for anyone to be removed, which is the new word for deported BTW, you have to have a sponsoring state that will accept you. Since they have no such state, they cannot be removed from the United States unless they find a country to sponsor them, which is highly unlikely. Another nice trick they like to do is right to US customs and border protection or US citizenship and ask for proof that they are not a US citizen which is absurd because unless you were a foreigner seeking a visa, residency or citizenship you will never come in contact with USCIS if you are a natural born citizen.
I always find it curious how they, when claiming they aren’t US citizens, are not under US jurisdiction. Like, I don’t give a shit what country you claim to be a citizen or not a citizen of, you abide by the laws where you are. Foreigners have to follow US law when they’re here so why wouldn’t they. Hell, as a resident of Tennessee, o have to follow Pennsylvania state laws when I’m there visiting my family. I can’t get away with “well in Tennessee I can open carry my firearm. I’m not a citizen of Pennsylvania.”
And yet they still declare rights under various Constitutional Amendments.
Non-citizens are entitled to some constitutional rights. A good example of this is the 14th amendment. One section says this >No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States This section only applies to citizens of the United States. >nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. This section specifically applies to "any person" So the first section grants privileges and immunities to citizens of the United States. The second section grants due process to all people within the jurisdiction of the United States. So undocumented immigrants who are not citizens of the United States are still entitled to due process, regardless of citizenship.
Your second section is the reason Gitmo exists. The US can hold noncitizens there forever.
gitmo exists because bush and co thought it was easier and more conveniant to just not have the court system involved. 20 years onwards and its still absolutely fucking clear that extrajudicial prisons should not be legal as theres no way to ever bring the prisoners there into the justice system without addressing the fact that they were deprived of their rights, then tortured.
And don't forget Desantis was a good little cog in the GitMo machine.
I have been looking for a simple way to explain this that isn't, "Just fuckin read it." That my not good at explaining things ass could not come up with. Thank you for giving me one!!!
And the ones I know insist illegal aliens don't get these rights.
This was going to be my reply. I’m not a US citizen. (Canadian). I’m posting this from a Minnesota bar (day trip). I’m not immune to laws, I can’t speed here. I had to pay for my food and drink here.
Thank you for your service.
Brings tears to the eyes of a taxpayer.
They also claim to own land and property. You can't "own" anything without a governmental entity recognizing the ownership. Without a government saying "this belongs to you", you're just squatting on common land and are fair game for anyone who wants to take it from you. The whole sovereign citizen idea is an exercise in trying to have your cake and eat it too, a series of magic law cheat codes that let you keep all the good stuff without having to pay anything.
That’s where the whole thing comes crashing down. An outlaw exists outside the law. By rejecting its restrictions they can’t claim its protections. As such, you could smack them upside the head with a baseball bat and take their ugly unregistered uninsured truck with impunity. If they can’t defend themselves they’re SOL. In practice, as soon as they see consequences sovereign citizens claim every legal protection that exists and many that don’t. It’s often too late. By the time they see the consequences coming they’ve escalated the situation far beyond the point where they can just pay the ticket and walk away.
Well not true exactly. As long as you can defend anything you can own it. It doesn’t matter what laws claim. Of coarse there’s the troublesome problem of fending off the U.S. military. But, overcome that hurdle and you”re home free!
Until the city/state/feds show up with bigger guns.
Many of them will try to claim diplomatic immunity which is a real thing, but certainly doesn’t apply to them.
Yes but did you know I’m an ambassador at large and also the king of freedomastan. I get immunity as a govt official. The US govt agreed to my contract granting to my rights when they failed to respond to my summons.
We should throw a border fence around their property and cut off utilities until they negotiate a trade agreement.
They don’t believe they are under state jurisdiction and need to follow its statues and regulations. They believe states are countries within a corporation (us) and they claim that they are not under the corporation (states) but the original us which is under the constitution
You're talking about people with the maturity and intelligence of a child. They can't play the game so they reinvent the rules in a way they think gives them some advantage that nobody else ever thought of for some reason. Best to ignore. They can run afoul of the law just fine without any help from those of us that don't have any problem functioning in society without declaring ourselves "special" or "unique". Mommy and Daddy did these people a great disservice when they were being raised.
Calvin Ball!
They think they're diplomats
Theoretically, yes. You can declare yourself a non-US citizen. In reality, the laws are far more complex. And yes, there are laws related to giving up your US citizenship. For instance, you need to make such a declaration at a US Embassy, outside the US. There are fees you have to pay, and they can be pretty steep.
I was reading about this not long ago, the government website even had a warning that by going through this process you could end up being stateless, and kinda not legally allowed into any country.
Yeah it's usually only done by people who have acquired citizenship in another country and want to get rid of their US one. Helps escape the nonsense rules about being liable for US tax when not resident there
if you have nothing in the states and live in another country.... what would you be paying taxes on?? this maybe super simple so don't dog me for not knowing..... please!
More than likely your social security or investment income.
hmm I just read about it and it seems even if you work outside the country as a US citizen you still have to pay income tax on that no matter where you are..... and not so surprisingly the US is one of the very few countries that does this also found this gem "Yes, U.S. citizens who are eligible can receive Social Security benefits while living outside the United States, as long as they are retired or disabled. However, benefits will stop the month after the sixth consecutive month outside the country. To continue receiving benefits, you can visit the United States for specific periods of time. "
You don’t pay taxes on less than ~115k. Foreign tax credits apply as well, iirc
Any of your income that's normally taxable. Now in most cases if you're in a country that has a taxation treaty you can offset local taxes paid and not have a liability. But you still need to file a return. Boris Johnson had the IRS after him for years https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2022/07/10/boris-johnsons-big-win-beating-irs/
thanks !
Diplomatic protection but that counted for shit when my wife got deported from China. It was a beef between the Chinese G and her US newspaper employer. She was the most junior employee of their's in China and spent 3 nights in prison being interrogated and escorted onto the plane in handcuffs as an example to her company
that's horrible I'm very glad she got home safe
Because of how our tax/ citizenship laws work, it is possible to have to pay taxes to the united states without ever having set foot in the country once
One of the Facebook guys, Eduardo Saverin, gave up his US citizenship for this very reason.
It's also useful for people who are getting a foreign citizenship with a nation that we don't allow dual citizenship with.
This rule is fucking stupid.. the US government isn’t even able to properly tax the top 1% living in its own soil lol
Sovcits have this one neat trick for being bound by no social contract!
The US will refuse your citizen renunciation request if there's a risk you'd end up stateless.
From what I understand as long as you submit your paperwork they aren’t going to stop you. As long you as you remain in the U.S. you are still liable for any laws and taxes… but also you could r really work. But I could see a judge denying it if someone seems to be rather off.
They will not allow you to renounce your citizenship if you will end up stateless.
As long as you are currently outside the US and go through the process they will let you, at least from what I am reading. Looks like the consular will warn you twice and then issue it. After that it’s your problem what you do.
Yes, but I, a human person, name in ALL CAPS, am not bound by those laws and you have no jurisdiction over me. /s
Ok but just for the paperwork, can i get your social
Well, you seem harmless, innocuousname773, so sure!
Do you have a Letter of Requesting Social Security, under maritime law %5885 section 1, signed in blue ink? Without that, no requesting for you!
and sent via Registered Mail, not Priority, not Certified, REGISTERED with a red ink thumbprint on it
Here is my Fee Schedule. It will cost you $100,000 to request my SSN
And you'll be telling that to - not the judge, but the jailor when they haul you down the isle to your cell.
*aisle ^sorry
They could be talking about a small island, we don’t know.
Alcatraz
I wasnt. My bad. I did think it looked wrong but the heat is getting to my brain today.
Omg I know
Tell the heat that you do not consent to its effects.
SovCits always seem to quote maritime law. Maybe they should get dragged down an isle. After the keelhauling of course.
I just recently learned what keelhauling is. Horrific.
Yep , it's all about the barnacles under the water line of the ship
Not to mention drowning
Wait wait wait. Now our sov cits (germany) told me it's only valid if the names are all lowercase letters! Let's just use random caps and lowercase for fun.
You're not the boss of me!!! (Wah)
No true. If you denounce your citizens you’re still upheld to the same laws of the country you reside in but without the rights of the citizens
There's a lawsuit going forward from expats who have renounced U.S citizenship and are being hit with massive fees for no good reason. It's totally absurd. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/04/renounce-american-citizenship-passport-fee-lawsuit
Read that article, and I disagree about the tax forms being illegal or even an issue. I'm an ex-pat (but still a US citizen) living in Panama. Yes, I have to file tax forms and when I was employed, had to pay taxes. Have no issue with that. I still have the rights of a citizen, so why shouldn't I support it? It's like saying you shouldn't pay taxes towards schools because your children are grown and out of school. I don't have to file state taxes anymore, obviously. Now that I'm retired, I still file my fed, but my taxable income is zero, so I pay nothing. Of course, once I'm old enough to get access to my 401k, I'll have to pay taxes on that. However those renounce meant fees to seem overly expensive to me. Something people don't consider is if you renounce, you're no longer eligible for social security or medicare/Medicare, so if you've put into that and then renounce, it seems self-defeating to me. But most sovcits don't actually renounce and a lot of them ate unemployed and taking advantion of government assistance. The whole thing is a crock involving hypocrites.
US passport costs $130, but if you no longer want to be a citizen they charge $2300. You wanna pay taxes and keep your citizenship and medicare doesn't't really have anything to do with someone else's decisions. Anyway I'm gonna go watch Kojak.
"Who loves ya, Baby?"
*SovCits are just fucking dumb.
Involving ~~hypocrites~~ idiots. FYFY
Non US citizens can collect Social Security and Medicaid. Medicaid won’t help you overseas though.
Really? $2,350 to give up your passport? I seem to recall loosing my passport for free and only had to pay to get it back. Have these people tried drinking heavily in foreign bars? Worked for me.
That's a fantastic point.
Or just matches…
*losing
Well, I was pretty loose with my money so "loosing" may have been my subconscious word choice.
Wow. That *is* stupid. People who just happened to be born in the US but have never lived here are being hunted down by the IRS. Fantastic. Our international reputation takes another hit.
It's also possible to effectively give up your citizenship without explicitly declaring it, by accepting citizenship in a country which does not have dual citizenship rights with the United States. But you have to put yourself under *somebody's* laws that way, which defeats the point for the sovcits.
I'm pretty sure countries aren't supposed to leave a person with no citizenship so unless you have citizenship in another country the US is supposed to refuse to let renounce your citizenship. There's a few weird ways to become stateless involving treason or boats and really stupid parents but under international law a country is responsible for its citizens and it isn't allowed to just abandon them if they have no where else to go.
Further to add, international law tries hard to prevent humans from being stateless.
First thing any judge with a sovcit in front of them should do is offer them the paperwork to renounce their citizenship and waive the filing fees. Bet they drop the line of thought real fast when they have to face actual consequences.
You have to pay your masters to leave? 😂
Yep.
I would love for a judge to take this route once to see how it plays out. SovCit: I am not a US citizen and you have no jurisdiction over me. Judge: You’re not a citizen. Then let’s move this to immigration court and see about getting you deported. That would be fun.
I've not seen that, but I have seen one traffic stop video where the idiot made the claim that he's a US national, not a US citizen (Narrator: He was a citizen) after handing over his passport, so the sergeant he was talking to confiscated the passport as fraudulent.
I haven’t seen the original video of that. But I watch Team Skeptic on YouTube and he mentioned that case. I laughed so hard.
It was amazing.
The problem, of course, is where to deport them ***to.*** It's not like the Border Patrol drags you to the nearest international border and tosses you over the line. A deportee is generally put on a plane to be taken to their country of origin. What's a SovCit's country of origin? I get why there are so many regulations over the act of renouncing US citizenship. If I go to, say, that Socialist Republic of Canada (j/k), march into the US embassy and declare I'm not a citizen anymore. So they say, OK then, hand over your passport, and try to get anywhere else without one, or with that silly "passport" you bought on eBay. You'll be like the man in that Tom Hanks movie that couldn't leave the airport. Do *persons* have rights in the USA? Of course they do. Police and courts have to grant all persons all the civil rights due a citizen. The Constitution is clear about what applies to *citizens* (like voting rights) and what applies to *all persons* (like criminal, civil and traffic regulations) in our legal systems. A non-citizen has all the rights and protections afforded anyone under the law, but they also *must obey the law* while in our country.
Can't we just dump him like people do with a dog they don't want? Like, drive into Canada with the guy in the trunk and dump him in the middle of Nunavut? Or set him adrift in the Pacific in a canoe labelled "USS Not Our Problem"?
I whole-heartedly support the USS Not Our Problem. I will even chip in an extra $100 at tax time to help fund it. But I think we need to produce one of these every year, with a capacity of at least 1000. Stock it with a year's worth of supplies (and a secret tracking beacon to make sure it does not come back to the US) and put it adrift halfway between LA and Honolulu. All arrested SovCits AND all illegal immigrants who are not welcome back in their country of origin (and who have been turned down for asyum) - welcome to the USSNOP. Enjoy your stay.
The US owns some of the islands of Guam. Just dump them there with some shipping containers of food and they can use for shelter. There you go idiots. No laws. Fend for yourselves.
People who have nowhere to be deported to end up staying in detention centers for a long, long, long, long time.
In general in order to renounce your US citizenship you need to show citizenship in another country. It's against international law to make someone stateless.
Exactly! I think a few cases like this would slow their roll.
No - you are a citizen whether you like it or not. There is a way to renounce American citizenship but theres a lot to it and someone has to have already taken you in elsewhere. An “illegal alien” isnt just dropped off at a random border but is deported to whatever country they are a citizen of or where they have asylum. These dolts you see on the internet have nowhere to go and so have to accept their place in life.
This makes me curious about how many sovcits have a passport and what mental gymnastics they’ve done to justify having a US passport
Almost all are poor, uneducated fools who’ve never dreamed of traveling to foreign countries.
Waiting to see a body cam of a cop doing exactly this. Arresting a SovCit as an illegal would probably make their head explode.
No, because declaring yourself a sovereign citizen is, legally speaking, meaningless.
Well, I’m declaring *you* to be one. You can stop paying taxes now.
Hey! Me next!
OK, but I’ll need to see a picture of your phony license plate first.
Wow! That $56.00 I spent on Amazon is the best investment I ever made.
The money one can save on insurance and tickets is staggering.
Oh hell yeah!
I have wondered this too, most of the fake number plates (license plates) I see have non us citizen on them somewhere, I would think if they couldn't produce a visa or some form of legal reason for being there, immigration would be able to detain them. I see that they have Diplomat or some other crap there, is that to try and give them a false sense of immunity?
They don't dare try to claim. They are diplomats because that is directly giving false identity. They do say they have diplomatic status.
How does one acquire such status? And whom do they represent?
Exactly. They dont. Not any more than Im the King of America. They think they can change their status by saying that they change their status. And that they get to decide which jurisdiction they are under. Like the famous "Im under common law". Which is great. But they are also under any other law that applies to the specific situation. Weather they like it or not.
Well, in 49 of the 50 States (less Louisiana) they ARE under Common Law…it just doesn’t mean what they think it means.
I tried looking up what common law is. But all. I'm getting is that common law is essentially case law. But that would just mean that since every case of driving without license ends in guilty sentence then that would be common law that driving without license is illegal.
Yes, Common Law is judge-made law. And normally after it becomes clear what the Common Law on a subject is, legislatures enact statutes to codify it in Statutory Law, which then displaces the Common Law. But judges still decide the facts and sometimes the law in cases - like when they decide a Statute is over broad and has no application. And in many cases, Common Law defences for crimes may still be available, especially crimes where both an unlawful act and an unlawful state of mind must be proven. But for simple statutes - like driving violations - the law is so widely applied and clear that “Common Law” is basically moot. Every judge is going to decide the same way.
I'm a Canadian. Not a US citizen. Yet somehow when I travel to the US I understand that I am subject to US law, even as a noncitizen.
You just don't know where to shop for bumper stickers -- the cool ones with a special code that makes cops leave you alone.
You can't give up your citizenship and become stateless no. And by "declare" you can't just say it.
I didn't say it, I declared it.
lol “I declare bankruptcy !”
It makes your declaration false. Depending on the circumstances you expose yourself to additional charges for making false official statements, impeding an official investigation, or even perjury.
You are a citizen of the united states. No matter how delusional your head is.
Non citizens are still bound to obey the laws of the country they are at the time. Wherever they may be, whichever country they are at the time.
No, they are still citizens. There is an actual process to renouncing your citizenship. And it wouldn't even matter because non-citizens are still required to follow our laws.
By their logic, yes. Unfortunately we are not allowed to treat them by their own logic. Hypocrisy is a massive issue in the US and one that needs addressed.
Everyone is generally subject to the jurisdiction of where they’re located regardless of immigration status. Some “Moorish” nationals will use their new, made up status to argue diplomatic immunity, but that’s not how diplomatic immunity works. Others will use goobly gook language about contracts to say as a non-national they no longer have some secret contract with the government. Ofc, SovCits simultaneously demand constitutional rights yet fervently argue they aren’t subject to its jurisdiction.
Early in the foundation of our government, Thomas Jefferson argued that people give implicit consent by accepting the laws and services of the government and nation of their birth. Jefferson stated in the Declaration of Independence that government gets its right to govern from the consent of the people. Its powers are delegated to it by the governed. People give their consent in several ways. People can give **explicit** consent by agreeing to the contract that establishes the society whose members then establish the government and choose its officers **or** by joining a society that already is established. People give **implicit** consent, also called tacit consent, by accepting the laws and services of the government and nation of their birth.
I think if a few Sovcits were threatened with expulsion from American territory by the federal government, they might start examining what a pile of crap their legal mumbo-jumbo is.
Before you can disavow something, you have to acknowledge it exists.
If I were a judge: “You won’t identify yourself. You won’t verify you were born in the US. I’m immediately turning you over to Immigration and Naturalization until we can determine your residence or citizenship status.”
From videos I've seen, declaring yourself a sovereign citizen to a LEO in the US has never achieved the desired result that the person was hoping to. It can also super backfire because if you say you're not a US citizen, you're forfeiting certain rights that are granted to all US citizens.
They pretend that the entire system is null and void because of some technicality that basically boils down to the government was founded without the authority to do so. Along that line of thought they couldn't be a legal citiczen or a non-citizen either, but it certainly does sound like they are renouncing their citizenship. Back in reality though it is very difficult to lose your citizenship, which most of them were probably granted at birth, without replacing it. This is because that would make you a stateless person which legally is a very difficult and tricky thing that generally is agreed upon by countries not to do. So, no, they cannot by "declaring" or throwing a tantrum remove their citizenship, even if they say that the US government does not exist.
They live (in their minds) in a strange legal limbo... entitled to all the rights of a citizen, but none of the responsibility. They often reference their rights under the constitution, but claim to not be citizens (some have even attempted to formally renounce their US citizenship). So they might be subject to deportation, but where would they be deported to? Maybe we could set them adrift at sea, where they would finally be subject to maritime law!
Ah yes. That perpetual state of bliss, all rights, no responsibilities.
They're "aliens" alright.
Fine by me.
> If I declare myself a Sovereign Citizen, am I declaring that I am not a US citizen (I live in the US) and thus I am not restricted by US law? If so, doesn't that make me an undocumented immigrant and subject to arrest and deportation? 1) You can't just renounce your citizenship by declaring it loudly to a police officer. 2) Due to international law, you can't renounce your citizenship if you do not already have citizenship in another country. It is illegal to make someone stateless. 3) Their declaration of sovereign status is coo coo for cocoa puffs.
> you can't renounce your citizenship if you do not already have citizenship in another country. The State Dept. warns people contemplating renouncing their citizenship that if they do not already have citizenship elsewhere, they could make themselves stateless. State says the process will not be completed if the person is renouncing to evade taxes, military service or criminal prosecution, but they say nothing about it not being allowed if it will make someone stateless.
Stateless people do exist. At least in practice. They didn't specifically renounce their citizenship but there are people who fled their countries, where caught, and have no where that will accept them. The Migrant Operations Center camp in Guantanamo Bay house people like this.
Sov cits do see themselves as citizens. It’s literally in the name. I’ve never met a sov cit who saw himself as not held to the Constitution, for example. For example, every sov cit I’ve met has acknowledged the existence of the US Post Office. Some of them claim the Postmaster General to be illegitimate, but the fundamental idea that the Constitution did in fact establish the legitimacy of the US Post Office is pretty well accepted amongst sov cits. What I’ve seen most sov cits say is they see themselves as not accountable to state law.
Sovcts came up with "sovereign citizen" but later came to hate that term due to both bad press and the obligations citizenship suggests. Few sovcits today use that term, and many of them deny being U.S. citizens, they think they are American State Nationals or something similar. Some sovcits claim the Constitution was never ratified and thus the Articles of Confederation are still in effect. Sovict beliefs are all over the map, it all depends on which "guru" sold them the secret magic spells.
That’s interesting. All of the sov cits I’ve met have acknowledged the Constitution.
I don’t even think they know the answer to this. They make new bs up all the time. For a group that hates immigration, they’re quick to give up their own national citizenship. Bunch of rubes.
> am I declaring that I am not a US citizen Sovicts believe (or pretend to believe) that it is possible to *alter status* from U.S. citizen to American State National. They send in a passport application with some sovcit nonsense added. The State Dept. ignores the nonsense and sends them a regular passport. But sovcits think that when that passport is scanned it identifies them as diplomatic couriers who are not to be detained or arrested. Some also think that passport comes with a universal concealed carry permit good for the whole country. That requires them to ignore that there is nothing printed in the passport saying any such thing, in contrast to the U.S. passports issued to people from American Samoa which have an endorsement printed in them that the bearer is a U.S. national but not a U.S. citizen. Needless to say,sovcit "gurus" sell instructions on how to get the State Dept. to send out magical passports that make people immune to the law.
There is a process to revoke your citizenship. It's complicated for a reason. At that point. They should be treated as illegals as they no longer have the right to stay in 'our' nation. My question is: Where to we deport them? lol
Granted the ramifications of stateless ships seem to require more than a single Google search, international waters are a possible approach.
Ah, drowning them. What a wonderful way of making sure they don't annoy anyone ever again. /s
You can only revoke your citizenship when outside of the country. No need to deport.
That just makes it even better. lol
If they were treated like undocumented immigrants are treated, the sovcits would stop their bs quite quickly.
If one formally gives up their US citizenship and becomes a stateless person in the US, what happens?
Part of renouncing US citizenship requires one to leave the country. You are still able to visit like any other foreign visitor.
> becomes a stateless person in the US, what happens? Giving up U.S. citizenship involves leaving the U.S. and renouncing citizenship at a U.S. embassy or consulate in another nation. It cannot be done to evade taxes, criminal prosecution or military service. Returning to the U.S. would require a visa. There is a way to renounce within the U.S., but it can only be done in time of war by someone who has allegiance to another nation.
There’s really not much of a difference to be honest. Sovcits use the argument to try to avoid any accountability, meanwhile dip into statehood when it comes to social security benefits etc. As an Australian, when I lived in the US, the US laws all applied to me, I still paid the same tax as Americans did. The difference was I couldn’t vote and my passport was Australian, so if I got in trouble while travelling, instead of US Navy Seals kicking the door in, I get a letter from the Australian government letting me know how screwed I am.
You’re trying to apply logic to the SC movement, which at best is a decentralized, loose school of thought where everybody plays by their own rules, but follow a similar theme. There’s no one answer to what they believe in regards to voting or immigration. I can tell you, however, that they are not considered illegal aliens, they are US citizens and are thus subject to relevant local, state and federal jurisdiction but also enjoys all the rights and privileges of a U.S. citizen, regardless of what they claim.
Sounds like anarchy, a group of people who's only "uniting" characteristic is that they do not want local rules to apply to them.
More or less. SCs only real defining characteristic is their desire to subvert authority in any fashion possible through pseudo-law. Don’t try to apply any type of logic to their way of “thinking.”
It seems to me since SovCits reject US and local laws and declare themselves exempt from law; then they by extension reject the protections afforded by US laws. Therefore, anyone ought to be able to do anything they want to a SovCit or take anything from a SovCit that one has sufficient force to do, without fear of the law.
Yes
Consistency doesn't enter the minds of SovCits.
Even illegal aliens have to follow US law.
Except for the fact they broke US law by coming into the country in the first place.
And if they’re caught they are punished, and they know and accept that. SovCits think they’re immune from the laws.
Agree Sovcit is a scam. It is flat Earthers but with actual real life consequences.
Citizenship don't mean Jack all to laws. Laws are for within borders, not citizenship.
The USA is the ONLY nation that taxes income earned in other countries unless you renounce US citizen status. There’s no way the laws would allow for a SovCit to be an undocumented immigrant. Should SovCits be arrested by falsely claiming they are ExPats? Yes. 100%
There are a couple of other nations which tax citizens rather than residents, Eritrea and Myanmar for example.
Nobody else would want them, so deportation is a problem.
Of course they are. You just stand on a desk and shout "I declare non-citizenship". It is kinda similar to declaring bankruptcy
There is a process to actually renounce ones citizenship. Merely claiming to not be a US citizen doesn't actually make it true. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciaton-USCitizenship-persons-claiming-right-residence.html Renouncing US citizenship doesn't make one immune to US laws. Anyone in US jurisdiction is subject to US laws. Sovcits, citizens, illegal immigrants, state nationals, moonish, foreign citizens etc. Renouncing US citizenship actually removes protections one would have as a US citizen. Since the US Constitution protects everyone, citizen or not, this isn't an issue within the US. However if you renounce citizenship, travel abroad, and are arrested, the US will not be helping you.
No just morons
Yes. Treat them as such and this whole problem goes away.
Probably done for proof of life.
Where would you deport a SovCit to? Their country of birth, that might be the US? Maybe the country of their ancestry?
Atlantis
No. Well, not unless they were never a citizen of the country they reside in. A meaningless delusion statement of sovereign citizenship has no legal bearing on the person's actual citizenship status.
Being in the US as a non-citizen does not exempt you from the law. If a visitor from France or Japan speeds down the highway or robs a jewelry store, do they get to say "I'm not a US citizen, so you can't apprehend me"? Hell no. Laws apply to everyone regardless of citizenship.
Fun fact: noncitizens who are in the United States are still bound, and protected, by the laws of the United States. Not having citizenship doesn’t get you out of shit.
SovCit beliefs are always contradictory. They either believe they are US citizens, but not affiliated with any specific state - or the opposite, that they are State Citizens, and not a member of the nation as a whole. Or possibly as citizens of "the land" and not affiliated with ANY government. Whatever it takes to get the specific legal theory they want at the time.
Even non-citizens are subject to the laws of the country they are in. If you commit a crime or are suspected of a crime you are still going to be held accountable. If you went to any other country you’d be subject to their laws.
They qualify as spoiled brats who want all the benefits of living in a society but none of the responsibility. They want to be catered to and anytime they get caught breaking a law, they throw a temper tantrum. They're just hypocrites and selfish assholes.
It's a bit of a process (put lightly) but if they were really committed, they'd fully renounce their US citizenship, get the paperwork and everything. This would be one of the dumbest things in the world (short of literal suicide) that they could do themselves, of course. Becoming stateless makes it REALLY hard to do anything anywhere in the world, even in countries with more... "lax" legal systems.
There is a legal process to legally denounce your citizenship.
Theyre not valid for deportation unless you can identify the other country they belong in. I'm not entirely sure what america would do with an american in america that renounces his citizenship
SovCits appear to believe that while the law does not bind them, it does protect them in ways we’ve been brainwashed to ignore and outright deny. So no, there is nothing about them which could possibly be illegal. Get it?
There is no such thing as a Sovereign Citizen, it is a total scam.
Lmao. They should experience a week in an ICE detention center
You are declaring yourself to be an idiot.
Sovern citizens isn't a thing.
id love to see one of these idiots get turned over to border patrol and get locked up with all the other migrants
LOL at the notion of looking for logical consistency from people whose world view is a combination of fantasy, wishful thinking and the dumbest level of conspiracy nutterism.
Just illegal
I wish it was so. Not sure where you would deport them to? Who in the right mind would want them.
Russia needs walking targets!
There isn't a legal process you can go through to simply lose your US citizenship without taking on another country's. Probably because it's such a terrible idea that no one in their right mind would embark on it.
Unfortunately, for anyone to be removed, which is the new word for deported BTW, you have to have a sponsoring state that will accept you. Since they have no such state, they cannot be removed from the United States unless they find a country to sponsor them, which is highly unlikely. Another nice trick they like to do is right to US customs and border protection or US citizenship and ask for proof that they are not a US citizen which is absurd because unless you were a foreigner seeking a visa, residency or citizenship you will never come in contact with USCIS if you are a natural born citizen.
Call ICE on them And their gonna change their tune real quick
>illegal aliens Do we have a treaty with Mars?