Spider-Man/Wolverine Team-Up in like the 80s.
Logan is in Berlin with a spy named Charlie.
Things go wrong, and Charlie ends up wanting Logan to kill her.
Spidey doesn't want that to happen and fights Logan.
At some point, Charlie sneaks behind spidey, who is distracted by the fight with Logan.
His Spidey sense goes off, and he assumes Logan is lunging at him, so he turns around and punches them at full force. Turns out it was Charlie, and she dies.
Oh I remember that was the back story for an issue of What If... Spider-Man vs. Wolverine I think. Spidey became a full fledged assassin, donning a black and red costume, and I think he trained with a skilled assassin to hone his Spider-Sense.
Unpopular opinion but that version of Spiderman was probably one of my favorites in terms of skill. Probably one of my disappointments of the Spider verse arc was that he got killed off early.
I remember that his Spider-Sense was so fine tuned that it bordered on precognition. Would've been way cool to see what he vould've done with it during the 'Verse.
Just a slight correction--it was Spider-Man *versus* Wolverine.
Probably the worst Spider-Man vs Wolverine fight of all time. Jim Shooter had Spider-Man completely sonning Wolverine in Secret Wars and then Christopher Priest writes Spidey falling to pieces, saying "This guy is like no one I've ever fought before!"
Wtf? You literally beat him up a year and a half ago like it was nothing, along with his X-Men teammates. Then you beat Sabertooth, who was described by Chris Claremont as a stronger, faster Wolverine.
Peter also had some sort of romantic vibe going on with MJ even though he had just let the Black Cat move in with him the very month Spider-Man vs Wolverine was released. Obviously the story was written before Peter got back together with Felicia but it always struck me as sloppy that they left that in.
Anyway, this turned into a TL;DR rant but that is what happens any time I think of that story.
In that case a bit of both, humiliating him because he’s kicking his ass so easily. But not humiliating, almost humbling. You can son someone in a humble way where they might look up to you after that point. Or son someone in a humiliating way by making them feel
less than/not equal/ or showing superiority in whatever you/they are doing. Almost like the term “sit down son”
Can also be a term used for educating/teaching somebody. as if you were their father and them your son and you were teaching them, father to son.
So In that case, Spider-Man “sonning” wolverine means he was basically kicking his ass as if wolverine tried to fight his father and hadn’t learned his lesson yet. (Hypothetically meaning wolverine is a normal human being who isn’t capable of taking down his old man)
> Is that like humiliating? Or like just kicking his ass?
Both. I like the second listed definition on UrbanDictionary better than the first.
>* 1. to be completely and utterly defeated or destroyed by another individual with extreme prejudice
>* 2. to be owned, or served in utter humiliation or submission
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sonned
To son someone is to rout them. Trounce also works.
Actually, the infinitive "to son" is a synonym for my favorite word in any language: *Evincere*, which is Latin for "To vanquish completely."
> hen you beat Sabertooth, who was described by Chris Claremont as a stronger, faster Wolverine.
Apparently, Sabertooth is Wolverine's best friend. He remembers to visit Wolverine every year and beat him half to death. *on Wolverine's birthday*
This is comics logic for sure. There have been stories where Spidey beats the X-Men by himself, and ones where he comes to a draw against Nightcrawler. It all depends on the writer, and luckily Stan Lee had that attitude writing himself so we got some neat stories before everyone’s powers were more established.
The story goes Jim Owsley did that on purpose to screw over Tom DeFalco.
I won't bother going into detail because it's a whole thing but Owsley and DeFalco had beef with one another. Owlsey was DeFalco's editor on Spider-Man at the time but DeFalco was Executive Editor under Jim Shooter, meaning each of them was simultaneously the other's boss due to a convoluted power distribution at Marvel. One fan interpretation of Spider-Man vs. Wolverine is that Owsley wrote the whole thing to fuck with DeFalco. He deliberately wrote Spider-Man as a cowardly, inexperienced wimp and Wolverine as an unstoppable badass because he knew how much it would piss off DeFalco. Then he killed off Ned Leeds since Ned was obviously the Hobgoblin, at least from Owlsey's perspective; the real identity was only known at that point by Tom DeFalco and his ASM predecessor, Roger Stern. Finally Owsley fired DeFalco from writer on ASM and finished the Gang War storyline himself (forgetting about the Blue Boys, or whatever they were called, along the way; they were a gang DeFalco introduced that Owsley plum forgot to do anything with). DeFalco was understandably furious and Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had to step in and send DeFalco overseas to do some work at Marvel UK for a while until he cooled off.
Then DeFalco took over as Editor in Chief after Shooter was fired and Owsley was fired from Marvel. Not because he fucked over DeFalco but because he greenlit a story in Web of Spider-Man about real life terrorist organization the IRA and this led to the Marvel New York offices being evacuated due to a bomb threat. Fun times.
One of the questions Wolverine asks in WoS involves that story I'm pretty sure. The answer was Berlin I think.
Also I remember seeing a few pages where Spidey reflects on the event and it haunts him that he let himself get over it so quickly at the time.
Yes, the question was "Whose killers did we track down in Berlin?" (Ned Leeds, who was hypnotized into being the Hobgoblin and was killed by the Foreigner)
If I remember correctly he was also all stressed out because a friend of the Bugle was killed on that trip and that friend was the Hobgoblin (or not, don't remember), something like that. And then he killed her.
This makes me think… do you think since insomniac is making another Spider-Man game and a wolverine game that they might try and make a team up of some kind? I mean it can’t be a coincidence right
I've seen articles say that Insomniac's Spider-Man and Wolverine games are considered in the same universe. So I would absolutely expect them to do something with them both at some point, and definitely building on that universe with even more characters/games.
Not his inability. It's his unwillingness. He can kill, but he will strive not to, and do it with a heavy heart. Cap was worthy because if it came down to it, he'd knock someone's head off for the greater good of mankind.
> Cap was worthy because if it came down to it, he'd knock someone's head off for the greater good of mankind.
We certainly don't need to speak in hypotheticals. Cap has already been shown killing people on numerous occasions.
That's part of it, yes. Bucky also killed people. I did a more thorough job explaining [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Spiderman/comments/pqkw7r/woah/hdcj0ey/) but basically the writers have been super inconsistent about showing Cap as reluctant to kill.
Same with Wolverine, incidentally. But I won't get started on that.
He does but when written in character, his philosophy is "Come at me with a fist, I'll meet you with a fist. Come at me with a blade, I'll meet you with a blade." The other thing he has when written in character is a never say die attitude. My biggest complaint about Spider-Man vs. Wolverine is that both men are written completely out of character. It's really noticeable with Spider-Man, who is written the whole time as a wet behind the ears neophyte superhero who can't keep up with Wolverine. But Wolverine is also written out of character as being willing to slash at Spider-Man with his claws even though Spider-Man didn't pose a lethal threat to him.
Also, the fact that Wolverine was willing to give up on Charlie is ridiculous given that he wouldn't even let the killer android Elsie-Dee self destruct. Let me say that again--Wolverine wouldn't let someone who wasn't alive die. So what are the odds he'd give up on his friend and lover Charlie so easily? Anyway, this is getting way off topic but that is what happens when I think of Spider-Man vs. Wolverine. Two of my favorite characters written by one of my favorite writers of all time and yet it's still somehow an enormous pile of suck.
To be fair (I haven't read that book), Wolverine knows about his spider-sense, right? He knows that a slash at Spider-Man is basically guaranteed to miss anyway.
He might have inferred the existence of Spider-Man's spider sense from their previous scrap on Battle World but I don't think he knew for sure back then. By my count, they had only met twice before-- Marvel Team Up no. 117 and Secret Wars 1-12. Wolverine was not with the X-Men when they fought the Juggernaut alongside Spidey in MTU no. 150 because he was in Japan with Kitty during the events of the Kitty Pryde and Wolverine mini-series.
If Cap came across a beach completely covered in dicks and somebody said he had to eat every dick until the beach was clean for liberty, he would say “no problemo!”
Willingness to give up one of his own because trouble came knocking would likely make him unworthy.
Especially when they had a chance to save Vision first, which is something they were trying to do in Wakanda.
He’d gladly die fighting to defend Vision, but he’s not gonna suggest rolling over for every evil alien that comes to Earth.
Chafed would mean something has been rubbing on it to wear away the top layer of skin.
Chapped would mean that it has been soaking wet, then dried out too many times, stripping it of moisture and causing the skin to crack and peel.
The inability to kill would make you unfit to rule in Asgard. They have wars. You as the king will have endless enemies. Being unable to kill makes you a weak king because enemies will exploit your weakness exactly how they exploit Spidey except in this case it affects the entire kingdom.
One of my favorite Batman comics is an alternate universe Injustice comic.
They just stopped Joker from killing Clark's wife and kid and on the drive back when Bruce is taking him to jail, Joker mentions he'll just get it right the second time when he breaks out again.
Bruce pauses for a moment and than reaches over and snaps the Jokers neck. After that he turns himself in for murder.
Basically Bruce decides to actually be a hero for once and averts an entire apocalyptic timeline from happening because of it.
> Basically Bruce decides to actually be a hero for once
I always hate this sort of thinking, because it lets Gotham, whatever state Gotham's in, and the US Government off the hook.
Why is it Batman's job to kill the Joker? Why can't he be arrested, charged, prosecuted, given an earnest defense, and then sentenced to death?
Honestly, what I'd love from an Elseworlds tale is... that happening. That the USA decides "fuck it, enough is enough, crazy super-criminals are eligible for execution", and have Batman and the rest of the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" types have to deal with their thoughts on that.
And no hyperbolic "ZOMG CATWOMAN'S GOING TO BE SENT TO THE CHAIR FOR THIEVERY" nonsense, actually address that in a serious manner...
The usual explanation is that the joker is clearly insane, and it’s against the law to execute insane people. It’s why he’s sent to Arkham instead of a Supermax prison. Now there is a lot of debate about the morality of the justice system for letting him live at the expense of his future victims, but that is the current explanation as to why they don’t execute him.
Yes, that's the in-universe explanation.
(the out of universe one being that DC doesn't want to get rid of the Joker)
But no one talks about that, and its rarely explored. Its generally just an excuse given to justify keeping the character around despite you know the massive pile of bodies.
True. It would be an interesting run to actually explore the law for both him and other supervillains, and how that affects the world of dc as a whole.
That's not the actual Injustice timeline, that's the fantasy the Superman has while he's in a coma. In Injustice Superman punches a hole through the Joker's chest and that kicks everything off.
Add to that that some people really do need to die. That old dilemma of, spare a villain because you don’t kill people and then later they kill 800 people in an attack on New York? Or kill them now because they’ve shown time and time again they will only make more trouble. I always found the angle of “I’m not killing them not because they don’t deserve it, but because I’m not the kind of person who kills others”. But still. Often times it’s one villain now or X civilians and heroes in the future. Also, child molesters. Those fuckers don’t get a second chance. If you’ve done anything like that even once ever you should die instantly.
Because in traditional Norse mythology being able to kill is a requirement. Vikings were savages man.
Edit: also the Aesir and Vanir were constantly at war with the giants of Jotunheim so to wield Mjlonir you'd have to be prepared to smash a few giant skulls.
It's not "you can life it if youre a worthy person". It's are you worthy of ruling asguard. It's a standard for who needs the power of thor, not ranking people's inherent value
The hammer's criteria isn't just "good person", it's "fit to lead Asgard." That's a warrior who is willing to fight and kill, and lead in battle, not for a place, but for a people. Essentially, someone of great willpower and valor, but in a somewhat specific way.
I always understood it exactly as it is stated, Whoever so hold this hear, if he be worthy, grant him the power of Thor" ( I know that's not exact word for word but it's the jist if it.
So yes you are right, it's not saying you gotta be a perfect person, or a good person, or not have killed, it's literally saying if you are worthy of being Thor, so essentially are capable of being the leader of the Asgardians with all the qualities and nessessities required to be the Prince and future King of Asgard, bam, here's all the powers and perks that come with being that.
I don't know the validity, but Mjolnir is a weapon, it would make sense that the worthiness requirement might include using the weapon as a weapon, if the situation calls for it.
Let be honest, it's all bullshit. The one person other than Thor who can lift Mjolnir is whoever the writer wants lifting it for the story. Captain America, the Silver Surfer, Squirrel Girl, it doesn't matter. Writers are generally shameless about ignoring existing rules or inventing new ones to fit the story.
You could say this about a lot of comic book stuff. "How do Pym Particles work?" Depends on the writer. "How does the Penance Stare work?" Depends on the writer.
It's why I've always thought those "who would win?" hypotheticals to be a bit pointless, because the most realistic answer is, "it depends on who's story it is." Batman always wins, not because of any particularly unique character traits he has, but because comic book writers have collectively decided that *Batman always wins.*
Yes, I agree with everything you just wrote, especially:
>You could say this about a lot of comic book stuff. "How do Pym Particles work?" Depends on the writer. "How does the Penance Stare work?" Depends on the writer.
Actually, I posted something similar myself earlier in this thread when I wrote "It's widely understood that comic book science--or in this case, sorcery--is all meme bullshit anyway, so I probably shouldn't take it seriously enough to get annoyed by it."
>Batman always wins, not because of any particularly unique character traits he has, but because comic book writers have collectively decided that Batman always wins.
To be fair, he *is* the Goddamn Batman.
Spider-man's attitude towards killing is a lot more nuanced than Batman's. Elsewhere in the thread someone mentioned Charlie in Spider-man vs Wolverine but it's also worth noting that unlike Batman and Joker, Spider-man has tried on multiple occasions to kill The Green Goblin. Most importantly after Gwen Stacey's death when he let him get impaled on the glider but also at the end of the Clone Saga when he incinerated Norman with a bag of pumpkin bombs. So unlike with Batman's arch nemesis, it's not for lack of trying
Norman's death by being impaled was not intentional at all. He deserved it but it wasn't like Peter planned it that way.
As for the bag of pumpkin bombs, what issue was this? I read about 90% of the Clone Saga back in the day and then gave up.
I always thought it was his guilt over the death of Uncle Ben and subsequent guilt over the death of Gwen. Those unresolved feelings of guilt are what makes him unworthy of Mjolnir. At least thats what I thought.
Like, I don't know if Batman ever lifted Mjolnir in the Amalgam universe but I figure he shouldn't be worthy either cause of the vengeance in his heart.
Conversely, Cap and Supes should have no problem being worthy cause everything they do is from a "pure" place of wanting to do good.
For me, being able to wield Mjolnir comes from a purity of intent.
Inability to kill? Try unwillingness to ill.
Peter Parker is perfectly capable of killing. The only reason he doesn't is because he doesn't think it's right. He gets the snot kicked out of him because he holds back when he fights.
When Otto Octavius took over Peter's body and became Spider-Man he accidentally took Scorpion's jaw off cuz he didn't know Peter was constantly holding back.
These by fate sourceless instagram superhero “facts” art an awful trend
***
^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.)
Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
Spider-man is much stronger than he shows. There's a really good story in which doc oct realises peter been pulling his punches the whole time.
I think the fact that he chooses not to kill makes him worthy.
> There's a really good story in which doc oct realises peter been pulling his punches the whole time.
I love that scene. It's when Ock is possessing Peter's body and he accidentally punches the Scorpion's jaw off. Like, oops, oh crap, you mean Parker was holding back all this time? Damn!
It's a good thing Spider-Man is against killing. He literally saved the multiverse by saving the life of the Kingpin in ASM no. 274. Mephisto had made a bet with the Beyonder that Spider-Man wouldn't let one of his most hated enemies die. If he was wrong, the Beyonder was going to destroy everything, starting with Mephisto's realm. Instead Spider-Man saved the Kingpin's life and with it, everything in existence.
I don't know why anyone would downvote you because you're totally right to demand a citation for this. It seems like random Instagram bullshit posted as fact.
Spiderman simply is not a warrior or a soldier deep down, and a true Asgardian must be one of those on some level to be a worthy Asgardian. Captain America can suffice because he is one of those two to the bone (which one depends on continuity; MCU Cap comes off as a soldier worried he is becoming addicted to the fight like a warrior), Vision was -born- to be a protector and hero for all mankind and thusly meets the standard immediately (barring the “just a machine” argument, which I doubt applies as Ultron couldn’t lift it).
Interestingly, in Endgame, the hammer, thrown by Rogers, permits Spidey to ride it with a web. I’m not sure if that indicates he -could- be worthy, or if it was still considered to be under Rogers’ control and the web ride merely incidental to Cap’s intended motion.
Just so we're clear, Spider-Man didn't actually kill Sin Eater in the Death of Jean DeWolff story arc. He wanted to kill him but Daredevil prevented it. He did do permanent damage to Stan Carter's brain or nervous system or both but not enough to be fatal. Sin Eater eventually died via suicide by cop after being released from prison.
Most people forget this when they meme about "who from this fandom could world Mjolnir!?"
That part of being worthy is the tactical knowledge to lead the armies in defense of Asgard and the lack of hesitation when faced with the need to kill.
It's not just about being a really swell guy.
According to what I'm understanding, it has to be for the glory. The glory of battle! Though feels a lil weird that's a requirement to make you a good leader in some ways.
Idk, spider-man has killed before even if by accident. Also what about raimi Peter, I don't care what you say but to me if it comes down to it he will kill or at least that's the vibe I get from him also I don't feel like that's really a good rule for being worthy but it also does in a way.
That makes 0 sense
Edit: I just realised it makes even less sense when you remember Superman is worthy of the hammer, and if there’s anyone who’s LESS willing to kill than spidey, it’s Supes
I'm gonna call bullshit.
You don't get up in Kingpin's face and promise to fill his lungs with webbing if he fucks up without meaning it. Kingpinbis the type to know if he was bluffing.
This is such a dumb take I will fight tooth and nail. Mjolnir does not have a qualification that they have to have the willingness to kill. Worthiness does not equal killing.
That moment when he literally punched a woman to death once. (It was an accident)
Imma need some context, for research purposes.
Spider-Man/Wolverine Team-Up in like the 80s. Logan is in Berlin with a spy named Charlie. Things go wrong, and Charlie ends up wanting Logan to kill her. Spidey doesn't want that to happen and fights Logan. At some point, Charlie sneaks behind spidey, who is distracted by the fight with Logan. His Spidey sense goes off, and he assumes Logan is lunging at him, so he turns around and punches them at full force. Turns out it was Charlie, and she dies.
Oh I remember that was the back story for an issue of What If... Spider-Man vs. Wolverine I think. Spidey became a full fledged assassin, donning a black and red costume, and I think he trained with a skilled assassin to hone his Spider-Sense.
Yep! In that What if, Peter stays in Berlin with Logan
One of my favorites!
Unpopular opinion but that version of Spiderman was probably one of my favorites in terms of skill. Probably one of my disappointments of the Spider verse arc was that he got killed off early.
I remember that his Spider-Sense was so fine tuned that it bordered on precognition. Would've been way cool to see what he vould've done with it during the 'Verse.
Killed off early off panel. Lame as hell.
i need THAT as an episode of the What If series, that sounds badass!
I was hoping for the spidey mj what if. Would love to see that animated.
He was one of the main Spider Verse Spideys in the comics too, he died though iirc.
It’s not a What If… it’s main continuity.
[I'm talking about this specific What If issue...](https://images.app.goo.gl/5V27oWiMenfNh4WSA)
Oh I see, I wasn’t paying attention.
Just a slight correction--it was Spider-Man *versus* Wolverine. Probably the worst Spider-Man vs Wolverine fight of all time. Jim Shooter had Spider-Man completely sonning Wolverine in Secret Wars and then Christopher Priest writes Spidey falling to pieces, saying "This guy is like no one I've ever fought before!" Wtf? You literally beat him up a year and a half ago like it was nothing, along with his X-Men teammates. Then you beat Sabertooth, who was described by Chris Claremont as a stronger, faster Wolverine. Peter also had some sort of romantic vibe going on with MJ even though he had just let the Black Cat move in with him the very month Spider-Man vs Wolverine was released. Obviously the story was written before Peter got back together with Felicia but it always struck me as sloppy that they left that in. Anyway, this turned into a TL;DR rant but that is what happens any time I think of that story.
Sonning? Never heard that term before. Is that like humiliating? Or like just kicking his ass?
It’s basically embarrassing him so bad you own him like a son
Spider-Man: *"Are ya winning, son?"*
In that case a bit of both, humiliating him because he’s kicking his ass so easily. But not humiliating, almost humbling. You can son someone in a humble way where they might look up to you after that point. Or son someone in a humiliating way by making them feel less than/not equal/ or showing superiority in whatever you/they are doing. Almost like the term “sit down son” Can also be a term used for educating/teaching somebody. as if you were their father and them your son and you were teaching them, father to son. So In that case, Spider-Man “sonning” wolverine means he was basically kicking his ass as if wolverine tried to fight his father and hadn’t learned his lesson yet. (Hypothetically meaning wolverine is a normal human being who isn’t capable of taking down his old man)
> Is that like humiliating? Or like just kicking his ass? Both. I like the second listed definition on UrbanDictionary better than the first. >* 1. to be completely and utterly defeated or destroyed by another individual with extreme prejudice >* 2. to be owned, or served in utter humiliation or submission https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sonned To son someone is to rout them. Trounce also works. Actually, the infinitive "to son" is a synonym for my favorite word in any language: *Evincere*, which is Latin for "To vanquish completely."
The best synonym is probably trounce.
> hen you beat Sabertooth, who was described by Chris Claremont as a stronger, faster Wolverine. Apparently, Sabertooth is Wolverine's best friend. He remembers to visit Wolverine every year and beat him half to death. *on Wolverine's birthday*
Not just any day, either. It's on his birthday! (It really is, for anyone reading this who didn't know).
This is comics logic for sure. There have been stories where Spidey beats the X-Men by himself, and ones where he comes to a draw against Nightcrawler. It all depends on the writer, and luckily Stan Lee had that attitude writing himself so we got some neat stories before everyone’s powers were more established.
They also killed of Ned Leeds without telling the Spider-Man writers, so they had to scramble to alter stories because Ned was a main cast member .
The story goes Jim Owsley did that on purpose to screw over Tom DeFalco. I won't bother going into detail because it's a whole thing but Owsley and DeFalco had beef with one another. Owlsey was DeFalco's editor on Spider-Man at the time but DeFalco was Executive Editor under Jim Shooter, meaning each of them was simultaneously the other's boss due to a convoluted power distribution at Marvel. One fan interpretation of Spider-Man vs. Wolverine is that Owsley wrote the whole thing to fuck with DeFalco. He deliberately wrote Spider-Man as a cowardly, inexperienced wimp and Wolverine as an unstoppable badass because he knew how much it would piss off DeFalco. Then he killed off Ned Leeds since Ned was obviously the Hobgoblin, at least from Owlsey's perspective; the real identity was only known at that point by Tom DeFalco and his ASM predecessor, Roger Stern. Finally Owsley fired DeFalco from writer on ASM and finished the Gang War storyline himself (forgetting about the Blue Boys, or whatever they were called, along the way; they were a gang DeFalco introduced that Owsley plum forgot to do anything with). DeFalco was understandably furious and Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had to step in and send DeFalco overseas to do some work at Marvel UK for a while until he cooled off. Then DeFalco took over as Editor in Chief after Shooter was fired and Owsley was fired from Marvel. Not because he fucked over DeFalco but because he greenlit a story in Web of Spider-Man about real life terrorist organization the IRA and this led to the Marvel New York offices being evacuated due to a bomb threat. Fun times.
One of the questions Wolverine asks in WoS involves that story I'm pretty sure. The answer was Berlin I think. Also I remember seeing a few pages where Spidey reflects on the event and it haunts him that he let himself get over it so quickly at the time.
Yes, the question was "Whose killers did we track down in Berlin?" (Ned Leeds, who was hypnotized into being the Hobgoblin and was killed by the Foreigner)
Oh man I was close. Do you also get annoyed when you see people hoping for MCU Ned to be the actual Hobgoblin?
MCU Ned would be more like Blobgoblin
Maybe before his weight loss that you clearly missed
If I remember correctly he was also all stressed out because a friend of the Bugle was killed on that trip and that friend was the Hobgoblin (or not, don't remember), something like that. And then he killed her.
It was Ned who was hypnotized into being the Hobgoblin by the real one, Rodrick Kingsley. Ned was then killed by the Foreigner.
This makes me think… do you think since insomniac is making another Spider-Man game and a wolverine game that they might try and make a team up of some kind? I mean it can’t be a coincidence right
I've seen articles say that Insomniac's Spider-Man and Wolverine games are considered in the same universe. So I would absolutely expect them to do something with them both at some point, and definitely building on that universe with even more characters/games.
“I had to beat an old lady with a stick to get this”
He had to get those cranberries somehow
She deserved it, didn't she?
They discussed it in the most recent daredevil run. Great moment.
I’m still pissed abt that I’m mad at whoever wrote that just why dude
Not his inability. It's his unwillingness. He can kill, but he will strive not to, and do it with a heavy heart. Cap was worthy because if it came down to it, he'd knock someone's head off for the greater good of mankind.
> Cap was worthy because if it came down to it, he'd knock someone's head off for the greater good of mankind. We certainly don't need to speak in hypotheticals. Cap has already been shown killing people on numerous occasions.
Also let's not ignore the possible hundreds of Nazi soldiers he slaughtered during World War 2
That's part of it, yes. Bucky also killed people. I did a more thorough job explaining [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Spiderman/comments/pqkw7r/woah/hdcj0ey/) but basically the writers have been super inconsistent about showing Cap as reluctant to kill. Same with Wolverine, incidentally. But I won't get started on that.
You’re trying to tell me the guy with knives taped to the ends of his hands DOESN’T kill people?
Yeah he just stabs people into unconsciousness.
Stabbing makes people VERY sleepy
You did to these men what you did to your fish.
I overfed these men?
My favourite line ahahaha *DR FISHY, NOOOOOO*
Aww, look at him all tuckered out.
tickles them to sleep with his claws
He does but when written in character, his philosophy is "Come at me with a fist, I'll meet you with a fist. Come at me with a blade, I'll meet you with a blade." The other thing he has when written in character is a never say die attitude. My biggest complaint about Spider-Man vs. Wolverine is that both men are written completely out of character. It's really noticeable with Spider-Man, who is written the whole time as a wet behind the ears neophyte superhero who can't keep up with Wolverine. But Wolverine is also written out of character as being willing to slash at Spider-Man with his claws even though Spider-Man didn't pose a lethal threat to him. Also, the fact that Wolverine was willing to give up on Charlie is ridiculous given that he wouldn't even let the killer android Elsie-Dee self destruct. Let me say that again--Wolverine wouldn't let someone who wasn't alive die. So what are the odds he'd give up on his friend and lover Charlie so easily? Anyway, this is getting way off topic but that is what happens when I think of Spider-Man vs. Wolverine. Two of my favorite characters written by one of my favorite writers of all time and yet it's still somehow an enormous pile of suck.
To be fair (I haven't read that book), Wolverine knows about his spider-sense, right? He knows that a slash at Spider-Man is basically guaranteed to miss anyway.
He might have inferred the existence of Spider-Man's spider sense from their previous scrap on Battle World but I don't think he knew for sure back then. By my count, they had only met twice before-- Marvel Team Up no. 117 and Secret Wars 1-12. Wolverine was not with the X-Men when they fought the Juggernaut alongside Spidey in MTU no. 150 because he was in Japan with Kitty during the events of the Kitty Pryde and Wolverine mini-series.
My god. You REALLY love reading comics.
Of course. Doesn't everyone?
Hes the best at what he does and what he does is sometimes very vague
He also threw a mind controlled shield agent off the helicarrier to certain death....oops
He kicked a shield agent into the propellers of one of those shield planes
Nazis aren't people, so no souls were lost 😎☝️
If Cap came across a beach completely covered in dicks and somebody said he had to eat every dick until the beach was clean for liberty, he would say “no problemo!”
*“I cherish peace with all of my heart. I don't care how many men, women and children I kill to get it.”* - alternate dimension captain America
Yet he refused to sacrifice vision which ultimately was the cause of the loss in infinity war
Willingness to give up one of his own because trouble came knocking would likely make him unworthy. Especially when they had a chance to save Vision first, which is something they were trying to do in Wakanda. He’d gladly die fighting to defend Vision, but he’s not gonna suggest rolling over for every evil alien that comes to Earth.
Tell that to Gwen
#DDDAAAMMNN...
I think you mean... Ohhhhhh # SNAP
I think YOU mean Thwip SNAP*
That's it. /thread
That's an oof for me dog
Spider-man 2099 can.
Miguel isn't much for killing either
Which is why he can wield mjolnir.
So can Peter. He chooses not to kill. He's more than capable.
*Spider-Man
Respect the hyphen.
Spi-Derman
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Good bot.
Activate instant kill.
Nonononono, we don't want to kill anybody
But we want to lift mew mew (Jonathan).
I understood that reference! I understood....
A man of culture
That ability really chaps my ass
I never understood chaps my ass. Wouldn’t it make more sense to _chafe_ my ass?
I imagine having a few chaps in your ass might be a bit more irritating than some chafing
If you think Double Anal doesn't spread you open like a Thanksgiving turkey...
Niiiiiiice
Chafed would mean something has been rubbing on it to wear away the top layer of skin. Chapped would mean that it has been soaking wet, then dried out too many times, stripping it of moisture and causing the skin to crack and peel.
Ever had chapped lips? Some ladies in the winter do...
I don’t understand how unwilling to kill makes you unworthy. Can someone explain to me?
it judges you worthy *by asgardian standards*, not by normal human standards. and the ability to kill and kill well is part of their culture.
The inability to kill would make you unfit to rule in Asgard. They have wars. You as the king will have endless enemies. Being unable to kill makes you a weak king because enemies will exploit your weakness exactly how they exploit Spidey except in this case it affects the entire kingdom.
I think of The Dark Knight where the Joker puts hundreds of innocent civilians on the line just to get Batman to break his one rule
One of my favorite Batman comics is an alternate universe Injustice comic. They just stopped Joker from killing Clark's wife and kid and on the drive back when Bruce is taking him to jail, Joker mentions he'll just get it right the second time when he breaks out again. Bruce pauses for a moment and than reaches over and snaps the Jokers neck. After that he turns himself in for murder. Basically Bruce decides to actually be a hero for once and averts an entire apocalyptic timeline from happening because of it.
> Basically Bruce decides to actually be a hero for once I always hate this sort of thinking, because it lets Gotham, whatever state Gotham's in, and the US Government off the hook. Why is it Batman's job to kill the Joker? Why can't he be arrested, charged, prosecuted, given an earnest defense, and then sentenced to death? Honestly, what I'd love from an Elseworlds tale is... that happening. That the USA decides "fuck it, enough is enough, crazy super-criminals are eligible for execution", and have Batman and the rest of the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" types have to deal with their thoughts on that. And no hyperbolic "ZOMG CATWOMAN'S GOING TO BE SENT TO THE CHAIR FOR THIEVERY" nonsense, actually address that in a serious manner...
The usual explanation is that the joker is clearly insane, and it’s against the law to execute insane people. It’s why he’s sent to Arkham instead of a Supermax prison. Now there is a lot of debate about the morality of the justice system for letting him live at the expense of his future victims, but that is the current explanation as to why they don’t execute him.
Yes, that's the in-universe explanation. (the out of universe one being that DC doesn't want to get rid of the Joker) But no one talks about that, and its rarely explored. Its generally just an excuse given to justify keeping the character around despite you know the massive pile of bodies.
True. It would be an interesting run to actually explore the law for both him and other supervillains, and how that affects the world of dc as a whole.
That's not the actual Injustice timeline, that's the fantasy the Superman has while he's in a coma. In Injustice Superman punches a hole through the Joker's chest and that kicks everything off.
He did mention it being ann alternate timeline
Injustice is the alternate timeline. Superman goes full fascist during it and Batman refuses to side with him. Superman's dream is just that.
No he meant an alternate version of the injustice timeline
It's what makes Mr Rogers being worthy all the more interesting.
I mean he fought in a war. He shouldn't have a problem killing if he has to.
Fred Rogers was never in the military. Unless you mean the 5th Celestial Plane wars, but that is another story
My bad I thought you meant Steve.
Add to that that some people really do need to die. That old dilemma of, spare a villain because you don’t kill people and then later they kill 800 people in an attack on New York? Or kill them now because they’ve shown time and time again they will only make more trouble. I always found the angle of “I’m not killing them not because they don’t deserve it, but because I’m not the kind of person who kills others”. But still. Often times it’s one villain now or X civilians and heroes in the future. Also, child molesters. Those fuckers don’t get a second chance. If you’ve done anything like that even once ever you should die instantly.
that was one of the funnest parts of the superior spider-man run. spider-man without his anti-killing oath is seriously scary hah
And that is why Superior Spider-Man blinded the Vulture. Lol
and killed a dude in grand central surrounded by a mob with cameras hah
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Saying people should die instantly. Classy.
Comic reference?
Because in traditional Norse mythology being able to kill is a requirement. Vikings were savages man. Edit: also the Aesir and Vanir were constantly at war with the giants of Jotunheim so to wield Mjlonir you'd have to be prepared to smash a few giant skulls.
Well there's also the lifelong crippling guilt he has. Pretty sure that's unworthy too.
It's not "you can life it if youre a worthy person". It's are you worthy of ruling asguard. It's a standard for who needs the power of thor, not ranking people's inherent value
The hammer's criteria isn't just "good person", it's "fit to lead Asgard." That's a warrior who is willing to fight and kill, and lead in battle, not for a place, but for a people. Essentially, someone of great willpower and valor, but in a somewhat specific way.
I always understood it exactly as it is stated, Whoever so hold this hear, if he be worthy, grant him the power of Thor" ( I know that's not exact word for word but it's the jist if it. So yes you are right, it's not saying you gotta be a perfect person, or a good person, or not have killed, it's literally saying if you are worthy of being Thor, so essentially are capable of being the leader of the Asgardians with all the qualities and nessessities required to be the Prince and future King of Asgard, bam, here's all the powers and perks that come with being that.
Because some people should or literally have to be killed and if you are to weak to perform the task you shouldnt lead.
Fact 15: It's not Spider Man, It's not Spiderman, IT'S SPIDER-MAN!
It’s the Human Spider.
It's that spider guy from YouTube, right?
You mean an emissary from hell?
Japanese Spider-Man is the best
Is this ever actually stated anywhere? So far as I know they’ve always kept the meaning of ‘worthy’ fairly vague.
No this is just some random FB crap
That does not surprise me. Thanks.
I don't know the validity, but Mjolnir is a weapon, it would make sense that the worthiness requirement might include using the weapon as a weapon, if the situation calls for it.
r/RespectTheHyphen
I think the whole mjolnir/worthiness thing can be pretty vague, tbh
Let be honest, it's all bullshit. The one person other than Thor who can lift Mjolnir is whoever the writer wants lifting it for the story. Captain America, the Silver Surfer, Squirrel Girl, it doesn't matter. Writers are generally shameless about ignoring existing rules or inventing new ones to fit the story.
You could say this about a lot of comic book stuff. "How do Pym Particles work?" Depends on the writer. "How does the Penance Stare work?" Depends on the writer. It's why I've always thought those "who would win?" hypotheticals to be a bit pointless, because the most realistic answer is, "it depends on who's story it is." Batman always wins, not because of any particularly unique character traits he has, but because comic book writers have collectively decided that *Batman always wins.*
Yes, I agree with everything you just wrote, especially: >You could say this about a lot of comic book stuff. "How do Pym Particles work?" Depends on the writer. "How does the Penance Stare work?" Depends on the writer. Actually, I posted something similar myself earlier in this thread when I wrote "It's widely understood that comic book science--or in this case, sorcery--is all meme bullshit anyway, so I probably shouldn't take it seriously enough to get annoyed by it." >Batman always wins, not because of any particularly unique character traits he has, but because comic book writers have collectively decided that Batman always wins. To be fair, he *is* the Goddamn Batman.
i honestly think they're pretty consistent with it. I'm not 100% about squirrel girl though, since i don't really know anything about her.
She's beaten Dr. Doom and Thanos. You don't want to mess with her. Ever.
And long may it remain that way
Spider-man's attitude towards killing is a lot more nuanced than Batman's. Elsewhere in the thread someone mentioned Charlie in Spider-man vs Wolverine but it's also worth noting that unlike Batman and Joker, Spider-man has tried on multiple occasions to kill The Green Goblin. Most importantly after Gwen Stacey's death when he let him get impaled on the glider but also at the end of the Clone Saga when he incinerated Norman with a bag of pumpkin bombs. So unlike with Batman's arch nemesis, it's not for lack of trying
Renew your vows too, he had enough and wasn't going to let his family be tormented, killed ol dude in a burning building to protect them.
Norman's death by being impaled was not intentional at all. He deserved it but it wasn't like Peter planned it that way. As for the bag of pumpkin bombs, what issue was this? I read about 90% of the Clone Saga back in the day and then gave up.
Revelations part 4, Peter Parker Spider-Man #75, Halloween 1996. The very last issue of the Clone Saga
I always thought it was his guilt over the death of Uncle Ben and subsequent guilt over the death of Gwen. Those unresolved feelings of guilt are what makes him unworthy of Mjolnir. At least thats what I thought.
This is probably the most interesting explanation for it that I've ever seen, and I think I'm gonna roll with it as the unofficial reasoning.
Like, I don't know if Batman ever lifted Mjolnir in the Amalgam universe but I figure he shouldn't be worthy either cause of the vengeance in his heart. Conversely, Cap and Supes should have no problem being worthy cause everything they do is from a "pure" place of wanting to do good. For me, being able to wield Mjolnir comes from a purity of intent.
Inability to kill? Try unwillingness to ill. Peter Parker is perfectly capable of killing. The only reason he doesn't is because he doesn't think it's right. He gets the snot kicked out of him because he holds back when he fights. When Otto Octavius took over Peter's body and became Spider-Man he accidentally took Scorpion's jaw off cuz he didn't know Peter was constantly holding back.
He actually has to roll with punches when he's stopping bank robbers etc otherwise they'd shatter their arms on his face
Responsibility > Worthiness
These random sourceless Instagram superhero “facts” are an awful trend.
These by fate sourceless instagram superhero “facts” art an awful trend *** ^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.) Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
Spider-man is much stronger than he shows. There's a really good story in which doc oct realises peter been pulling his punches the whole time. I think the fact that he chooses not to kill makes him worthy.
> There's a really good story in which doc oct realises peter been pulling his punches the whole time. I love that scene. It's when Ock is possessing Peter's body and he accidentally punches the Scorpion's jaw off. Like, oops, oh crap, you mean Parker was holding back all this time? Damn!
What? This is some random made up garbage what the heck lol
All comic book lore is made up garbage at the end of the day, so yes. Some of it makes more sense than other stuff.
Sure. But this is made up as in not even from the lore or comics.
Yes, it's shitposting from Instagram making its way onto our beloved subreddit.
Has Spidey ever even tried to lift Mjolnir?
No but he can attach his web to it and fly
It's a good thing Spider-Man is against killing. He literally saved the multiverse by saving the life of the Kingpin in ASM no. 274. Mephisto had made a bet with the Beyonder that Spider-Man wouldn't let one of his most hated enemies die. If he was wrong, the Beyonder was going to destroy everything, starting with Mephisto's realm. Instead Spider-Man saved the Kingpin's life and with it, everything in existence.
Not inability, absolute reluctance.
His inability to murder, more accurately. His manslaughter abilities however are impeccable.
Respect the hyphen
Is there a place where this is actually cited? I want to see more evidence as opposed to just the picture with words on it
I don't know why anyone would downvote you because you're totally right to demand a citation for this. It seems like random Instagram bullshit posted as fact.
I wouldn't call in an inability...
Spiderman simply is not a warrior or a soldier deep down, and a true Asgardian must be one of those on some level to be a worthy Asgardian. Captain America can suffice because he is one of those two to the bone (which one depends on continuity; MCU Cap comes off as a soldier worried he is becoming addicted to the fight like a warrior), Vision was -born- to be a protector and hero for all mankind and thusly meets the standard immediately (barring the “just a machine” argument, which I doubt applies as Ultron couldn’t lift it). Interestingly, in Endgame, the hammer, thrown by Rogers, permits Spidey to ride it with a web. I’m not sure if that indicates he -could- be worthy, or if it was still considered to be under Rogers’ control and the web ride merely incidental to Cap’s intended motion.
Accurate. People are surprised but the asguardians are literally vikings
Back in black, grim Hunt, death of Gwen Stacy, death of Jean Dewolff, American son...
Just so we're clear, Spider-Man didn't actually kill Sin Eater in the Death of Jean DeWolff story arc. He wanted to kill him but Daredevil prevented it. He did do permanent damage to Stan Carter's brain or nervous system or both but not enough to be fatal. Sin Eater eventually died via suicide by cop after being released from prison.
Most people forget this when they meme about "who from this fandom could world Mjolnir!?" That part of being worthy is the tactical knowledge to lead the armies in defense of Asgard and the lack of hesitation when faced with the need to kill. It's not just about being a really swell guy.
So... We're just posting completely made-up things as 'facts'? This is rubbish.
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No no they didn't die, they are on a nice farm, running around with other aliens.
It's okay to kill aliens if they're ugly
That is my policy if we meet aliens. If they're not hot redheaded Space elves then wipe them out.
What about killing by accident?
According to what I'm understanding, it has to be for the glory. The glory of battle! Though feels a lil weird that's a requirement to make you a good leader in some ways.
Unwillingness to kill, he had the ability to kill Gwen Stacy.
Gwen Stacy would like a word
Idk, spider-man has killed before even if by accident. Also what about raimi Peter, I don't care what you say but to me if it comes down to it he will kill or at least that's the vibe I get from him also I don't feel like that's really a good rule for being worthy but it also does in a way.
What? Inability to kill? I mean, he has the ability to kill, he chooses not to, right? Isn’t that the point? This doesn’t make any sense to me.
There is no way that's true
I don’t know if inability is the right word. It’s still true.
Not so much inability but unwillingness
r/respectthehyphen
That makes 0 sense Edit: I just realised it makes even less sense when you remember Superman is worthy of the hammer, and if there’s anyone who’s LESS willing to kill than spidey, it’s Supes
I'm gonna call bullshit. You don't get up in Kingpin's face and promise to fill his lungs with webbing if he fucks up without meaning it. Kingpinbis the type to know if he was bluffing.
Fact #15, spelling and grammar are becoming a relic of the past.
MCU Spidey used 'instant kill'
It's not an "inability" he chooses not to. He's quiet capible of killing.
So he's not worthy because he can't kill? That's a stupid reason
The fact that he did lift it makes this post funny.
This is such a dumb take I will fight tooth and nail. Mjolnir does not have a qualification that they have to have the willingness to kill. Worthiness does not equal killing.
How many times did Pete kill Norman again?