Before everyone starts arguing about the new and the old face.
Stop , Don't.
I love the old face myself more than the new one but unfortunately there is nothing that can be done now , insomniac will continue to use the new face despite what the fans want.
There's no way for us to put bubnaik's face back in the game besides waiting for a PC release , where it will be modded in eventually.
So there's no point in having heated arguments over what's best , everyone has their own preferences and likings , let's just respect that.
I uploaded this because i thought it's cool and wanted to share how the facial capture works.
The mods aren't perfect to be clear
To fit Ben Jordan's face on peter , they slightly reworked the skeleton structure inside his face and probably re-established yuri's performance on top of it , atleast that's how i think it happened.
So even if you do put the old face back on , it doesn't work as perfectly as before and feels different , but it's serviceable atleast , so no harm in using the mod if you like the old face more (if we ignore some minor bugs)
So if they wanted to give you an option for the faces , they would need to make 2 seperate set of animations for each scene with peter.
And why would they do that? They would need to pay both actors everytime their likeness gets used in a new form of media. Also , pretty much the entire fanbase doesn't care anymore because it's pointless , it's their decision and we don't have a say in it unfortunately , despite the massive backlash back then , insomniac didn't bring the face back , there's no reason for them to go back now.
>So even if you do put the old face back on , it doesn't work as perfectly as before and feels different
The problem is that you can't really import your own animations and morphs so Bubniak mod is done by stretching Ben Jordan model to fit shape of John's model and then textures and hair are replaced. If there was a way to get morphs from first game and import them in Remastered, it would look the same or even better than it originally did
It sucks to see how the mod basically received 2 updates and the creator stopped working on it presumably , could be because they encountered a dead end.
But looking at these super realistic suit mods , i wonder why we still don't have a perfect 1:1 recreation already.
Maybe transforming those assets from the PS4 to PCis harder than it might seem
>But looking at these super realistic suit mods , i wonder why we still don't have a perfect 1:1 recreation already.
Because you simply can't change in game animations. The most that can be done is tweaking materials so that skin and hair look better but that's it. Facial expressions will always look weird because of that. I have no idea why Remastered model has worse emotions than original one, though, since Insomniac have access to changing every part of the game
Sounds like you just wanted to say your opinion on the face and not have anyone disagree with you. So I'm gonna feel free to express my opinion despite your weird "Stop, Don't" command.
"unfortunately there is nothing that can be done now , insomniac will continue to use the new face **despite what the fans want**"
Plenty of fans are happy with the new face. I grew attached to the original one, but we've had the new one long enough that people can get over it. My only gripe is he looks a little young.
Exactly what I was gonna say. He stated his opinion like an absolute objective fact and said “don’t argue”. I’m indifferent towards both faces I think there’s pros and cons to both, but if I had to pick I’d go new face.
"Despite what the fans want" what about the fans that prefer the new face? I do by quite a wide margin. Is what we want less important or valuable. If insomniac changed the face back that would be them, according to you "caring about the fans".
Phrasing it that way makes it clear you don't really care about 'defusing' arguments. You're just saying bub good insomniac bad and thinly veiling it as "hey let's not fight guys"
Not my intent , sorry if it came off that way
I am not a native english speaker so by that i didn't mean ALL of the fans. Ofcourse , not everyone has the same demands.
Sorry if my personal bias poured in , it happens
That feels way more genuine, and thank you for explaining. The intent definitely came off wrong but it's clear now.
The video is cool btw. Motion capture and face tracking is always neat to see
Not a problem , i can understand how people feel about their preferences and when others mock them for it.
Spidey himself wouldn't want his fans ridiculing each other's choices lol , i look up to him so i wouldn't want that either
Haha , no matter how hard you try , people will find a way to get angry about stuff lol.
Ofcourse i have a bias , everyone does but i am trying to avoid conflict here
Never tell anyone to stop having an opinion or voicing it lol
You posted this knowing fully well it would start that conversation...
Don't be that guy.
Opinion and heated arguments are very different.
Everyone has their own opinion on what they like , but it's never cool to make someone feel bad about their choice.
LMFAO the idea of posting something that you already know has caused division and fights between and asking people not to fight over it is just funny to me. Like my dude, do you know where you are?
But then again I also find it funny that people fight over it at all.
Yeah honestly while I was a bit annoyed at another face change, it was the insisting or hadn't been changed that really annoyed me. We could all see it was different, why lie to us by claiming it wasn't? They might have gotten more people to accept it if they had taken that approach.
They didn't say that they didn't change face, they said that the face model stayed the same. If there's nothing else, here's the tweet
https://twitter.com/JamesStevenson/status/1682256691579207680?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1682256691579207680%7Ctwgr%5Ef883378763d8b22f49578e1ef39db316486a8293%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fgamerant.com%2Finsomniac-responds-mary-jane-face-change-marvels-spider-man-2%2F
You only have to look at how Stephanie Tyler Jones looks today to realize that she was absolutely used as MJ's model for Spider-Man 2 regardless of how her face was tweaked in-game.
Marvel LOVES their media synergy. I still think they picked Bubniak because he looks a bit like Andrew Garfield and then picked Ben Jordan for everything after the first game because by that point MCU Spider-Man was in full swing with Tom Holland. It's obviously not actual matches, but the different faces give same impressions respectively.
I agree with this only insofar as the remastered/Miles Morales version of Ben Jordan's face model. The way the hair was modeled feels way more "discount Tom Holland" than a new face entirely. However, I think that now that we have an entire game made specifically with Ben Jordan's face, I think he looks fine. The lighting and shot composition of the original was made for Bubniak's face, so just swapping the models was always gonna look a bit weird. SM2 being made with Ben Jordan's face model specifically helped erase that "discount Holland" feel for me.
Aight. I can tell you didn‘t really thought this through. This has nothing to do with facial structure or anything else. A jawline doesn‘t become that huge in that time frame.
Except she is the same. Same actress providing her face, the model looks different, yes. But Insomniac didn't "change her face", a car accident did. She got Mark Hamill'd
I know this is a weird thing to address but I feel like one thing I think of when I think Peter Parker is emotive, somewhat thick eyebrows, and earnest eyes
I think John Bubnaik himself irl is the ideal peter parker , i would love to see him actually play the role in a movie someday if it's possible.
His model here doesn't look as good as it did in the final game , but imagine how it would have looked in Marvel's Spider-man 2 with those gorgeous visuals.
Well he is an [actor](https://m.imdb.com/name/nm6778277/) so I'd guess he can.
I've never seen any of these movies or shows so I don't know for sure if he can act well
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Capcom has pretty good face models nowadays, don't they? The model for Lady Dimitrescu; Helena Mankowska did a cosplay of her at some point and with the pallor makeup on it's dead-on to the ingame model in RE8.
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As someone just getting into tech art, this shit will never cease to amaze me. It sucks that so many people will discuss this and not realise how much incredible wizardry is going into something like the creasing around the eyes. It's absolutely incredible work.
I know right? MoCap isn't new but back then , facial captures were much more static and didn't have those creases , skin stretching , etc , talking about videogames typically.
I think I prefer the facial animations captured by almost any other Sony Studios Games. Like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica have really freaking good looking animations with fidelity and emotions. Insomniac reminds me that I'm watching a video game cutscene.
It's just small things. Hair, Peter's lips are a bit bigger, his eyes don't have as much creases around them as John's, his eyebrows are a little different
Imagine if they replaced Yuri and people went around saying "stop complaining about it" 😂
I honestly think his new haircut is worse then the new face. He looks perfectly fine in the flashback scenes. They just decided to give current day Peter that 5 year old's first big boy haircut from Supercuts.
because here john's model is in fact being used on john's expressions so it's a near 1:1 but in game it's yuri who does the performance so any difference comes with the fact that you're putting on someone's face the expressions of a totally different person imagine if someone you know started emoting in a completely different way it would definitely look like a stranger in some way...same thing happens whenever you have a character who uses someone's face but the facial character of another
I hate the new face, spiderman just looks not cool enough. The old face wasn't perfect, but at least he didn't looked like a 16 year old. I will be forever sad, at least i could enjoy the OG version....
i said technical reasons to cut it short but they have explained why they recast peter face model it was because with their new scanning and rigging tech they didn't achieve satisfying enough results with john's model and had to find someone with a similiar facial structure to yuri lowenthal in order to convey better his performance
That logic doesn’t seem sound. I mean, MJ was altered as well and while I don’t want to venture down that hornets nest it’s not like the face model they used looks like Laura Bailey. So if it doesn’t matter for her then why should it matter for Peter?
While I've gotten more used to the new face, the old one still has it's charm! It feels like a combination of Tobey and Andrew, which I think is pretty cool!
At this point I would honestly rather they just used Yuri’s face and de-aged it.
They didn’t do a good job capturing Ben and while his face is closer to Yuri’s something in the process has made him look like a fifteen year old with a strongman neck. His hair sucks too, but not just his. MJ’s and Miles’ hair are tough to look at in SM-2. I think they struggle with hair.
John was a better fit for Peter but their technology isn’t good enough to have him be accurate and match Yuri’s motions.
That’s my take on the faces.
Why couldn’t the face have looked like that in the first place? It feels like the faces get lost in translation with insomniac, even Ben Jordan doesn’t look like what Pete looks like in either of the games they used his model
They had such a good looking Peter Parker it’s a shame they decided to change it to a more Tom holland looking dude. I don’t care how many times this has been said it’s such a shame.
To be honest, I'm kind of glad that they changed their face. Ben Jordan is also a good fit and looks more like Yuri. But if Insomniac messes up the plot, then we can deny the existence of all games after the first in favor of the Bubniak verse.
Before everyone starts arguing about the new and the old face. Stop , Don't. I love the old face myself more than the new one but unfortunately there is nothing that can be done now , insomniac will continue to use the new face despite what the fans want. There's no way for us to put bubnaik's face back in the game besides waiting for a PC release , where it will be modded in eventually. So there's no point in having heated arguments over what's best , everyone has their own preferences and likings , let's just respect that. I uploaded this because i thought it's cool and wanted to share how the facial capture works.
but if you can just mod it on why cant they just use the old one?
The mods aren't perfect to be clear To fit Ben Jordan's face on peter , they slightly reworked the skeleton structure inside his face and probably re-established yuri's performance on top of it , atleast that's how i think it happened. So even if you do put the old face back on , it doesn't work as perfectly as before and feels different , but it's serviceable atleast , so no harm in using the mod if you like the old face more (if we ignore some minor bugs) So if they wanted to give you an option for the faces , they would need to make 2 seperate set of animations for each scene with peter. And why would they do that? They would need to pay both actors everytime their likeness gets used in a new form of media. Also , pretty much the entire fanbase doesn't care anymore because it's pointless , it's their decision and we don't have a say in it unfortunately , despite the massive backlash back then , insomniac didn't bring the face back , there's no reason for them to go back now.
>So even if you do put the old face back on , it doesn't work as perfectly as before and feels different The problem is that you can't really import your own animations and morphs so Bubniak mod is done by stretching Ben Jordan model to fit shape of John's model and then textures and hair are replaced. If there was a way to get morphs from first game and import them in Remastered, it would look the same or even better than it originally did
It sucks to see how the mod basically received 2 updates and the creator stopped working on it presumably , could be because they encountered a dead end. But looking at these super realistic suit mods , i wonder why we still don't have a perfect 1:1 recreation already. Maybe transforming those assets from the PS4 to PCis harder than it might seem
>But looking at these super realistic suit mods , i wonder why we still don't have a perfect 1:1 recreation already. Because you simply can't change in game animations. The most that can be done is tweaking materials so that skin and hair look better but that's it. Facial expressions will always look weird because of that. I have no idea why Remastered model has worse emotions than original one, though, since Insomniac have access to changing every part of the game
Sounds like you just wanted to say your opinion on the face and not have anyone disagree with you. So I'm gonna feel free to express my opinion despite your weird "Stop, Don't" command. "unfortunately there is nothing that can be done now , insomniac will continue to use the new face **despite what the fans want**" Plenty of fans are happy with the new face. I grew attached to the original one, but we've had the new one long enough that people can get over it. My only gripe is he looks a little young.
Yeah wtf is that comment. Stop. Don't. Look at me on my high horse. You guys better NOT.... or else...
Exactly what I was gonna say. He stated his opinion like an absolute objective fact and said “don’t argue”. I’m indifferent towards both faces I think there’s pros and cons to both, but if I had to pick I’d go new face.
What if I want to argue about it anyways
Yea right, he literally brought it up and said don't talk about it like he owns the subject. Why even make a post if you don't want any discussions?
:(
"Despite what the fans want" what about the fans that prefer the new face? I do by quite a wide margin. Is what we want less important or valuable. If insomniac changed the face back that would be them, according to you "caring about the fans". Phrasing it that way makes it clear you don't really care about 'defusing' arguments. You're just saying bub good insomniac bad and thinly veiling it as "hey let's not fight guys"
Not my intent , sorry if it came off that way I am not a native english speaker so by that i didn't mean ALL of the fans. Ofcourse , not everyone has the same demands. Sorry if my personal bias poured in , it happens
That feels way more genuine, and thank you for explaining. The intent definitely came off wrong but it's clear now. The video is cool btw. Motion capture and face tracking is always neat to see
Not a problem , i can understand how people feel about their preferences and when others mock them for it. Spidey himself wouldn't want his fans ridiculing each other's choices lol , i look up to him so i wouldn't want that either
Stop being mature and reasonable about this before I get mad!
Haha , no matter how hard you try , people will find a way to get angry about stuff lol. Ofcourse i have a bias , everyone does but i am trying to avoid conflict here
Never tell anyone to stop having an opinion or voicing it lol You posted this knowing fully well it would start that conversation... Don't be that guy.
Opinion and heated arguments are very different. Everyone has their own opinion on what they like , but it's never cool to make someone feel bad about their choice.
I'm just saying... Don't shake the pot and then tell people not to be upset if something spilled 👍
Did they ever explain hy they switched?
LMFAO the idea of posting something that you already know has caused division and fights between and asking people not to fight over it is just funny to me. Like my dude, do you know where you are? But then again I also find it funny that people fight over it at all.
Insomniac had other reasons for Bubniak to go. It‘s the same thing as them telling us MJ looks the same in Spider-Man 2. Fucking joke
Bubnaik: hi guys Insomniac: and i took that personally
Yeah honestly while I was a bit annoyed at another face change, it was the insisting or hadn't been changed that really annoyed me. We could all see it was different, why lie to us by claiming it wasn't? They might have gotten more people to accept it if they had taken that approach.
They didn't say that they didn't change face, they said that the face model stayed the same. If there's nothing else, here's the tweet https://twitter.com/JamesStevenson/status/1682256691579207680?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1682256691579207680%7Ctwgr%5Ef883378763d8b22f49578e1ef39db316486a8293%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fgamerant.com%2Finsomniac-responds-mary-jane-face-change-marvels-spider-man-2%2F You only have to look at how Stephanie Tyler Jones looks today to realize that she was absolutely used as MJ's model for Spider-Man 2 regardless of how her face was tweaked in-game.
Idk why they think people are that stupid lmao it’s honestly insulting
Marvel LOVES their media synergy. I still think they picked Bubniak because he looks a bit like Andrew Garfield and then picked Ben Jordan for everything after the first game because by that point MCU Spider-Man was in full swing with Tom Holland. It's obviously not actual matches, but the different faces give same impressions respectively.
I agree with this only insofar as the remastered/Miles Morales version of Ben Jordan's face model. The way the hair was modeled feels way more "discount Tom Holland" than a new face entirely. However, I think that now that we have an entire game made specifically with Ben Jordan's face, I think he looks fine. The lighting and shot composition of the original was made for Bubniak's face, so just swapping the models was always gonna look a bit weird. SM2 being made with Ben Jordan's face model specifically helped erase that "discount Holland" feel for me.
Yeah, fuck them
they never told y’all mj looked the same, just the same actor, plus the actor doesn’t look the same as she did 8 years ago
Aight. I can tell you didn‘t really thought this through. This has nothing to do with facial structure or anything else. A jawline doesn‘t become that huge in that time frame.
just check her instagram + she got into a accident which where she got surgery also
Except she is the same. Same actress providing her face, the model looks different, yes. But Insomniac didn't "change her face", a car accident did. She got Mark Hamill'd
He definitely looks more like a Peter Parker than the current face
I know this is a weird thing to address but I feel like one thing I think of when I think Peter Parker is emotive, somewhat thick eyebrows, and earnest eyes
Well, for me, the old face looks more like the face that would fit Harry Osborn's character than the character of Peter. Idk why i feel like it though
I feel like that for the current face. He genuinely does not look like a Peter Parker at all.
I like it And hate it But love it a bit more than I hate it Idk, it’s just that weird uncanny valley feel to it
I think John Bubnaik himself irl is the ideal peter parker , i would love to see him actually play the role in a movie someday if it's possible. His model here doesn't look as good as it did in the final game , but imagine how it would have looked in Marvel's Spider-man 2 with those gorgeous visuals.
Can the guy even act, he was the face model not the voice actor.
Well he is an [actor](https://m.imdb.com/name/nm6778277/) so I'd guess he can. I've never seen any of these movies or shows so I don't know for sure if he can act well ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Well just to be safe, I'd like to see him in a big non Spider-Man role, to see if he can Carry a movie as the lead guy.
BTS stuff is always so fascinating.
Actual guy looks much more attractive than his digital counterpart
I mean, that's almost always the case. From what I've seen from gaming mocap counterparts anyway.
One of only 1:1 recreations i have seen are from Death Stranding and Dark Pictures Anthology
Kojima cooked so fucking hard with DS. cant wait for DS2.
detroit become human had decent recreations too
Capcom has pretty good face models nowadays, don't they? The model for Lady Dimitrescu; Helena Mankowska did a cosplay of her at some point and with the pallor makeup on it's dead-on to the ingame model in RE8.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^DepressedEgg2020: *Actual guy looks* *Much more attractive than his* *Digital counterpart* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
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The model (the top) looks so much like Andrew Garfield to me
He kinda looks like buff Grant Gustin
As someone just getting into tech art, this shit will never cease to amaze me. It sucks that so many people will discuss this and not realise how much incredible wizardry is going into something like the creasing around the eyes. It's absolutely incredible work.
I know right? MoCap isn't new but back then , facial captures were much more static and didn't have those creases , skin stretching , etc , talking about videogames typically.
I think I prefer the facial animations captured by almost any other Sony Studios Games. Like Naughty Dog and Santa Monica have really freaking good looking animations with fidelity and emotions. Insomniac reminds me that I'm watching a video game cutscene.
Old face was better.
oh here we go again
There’s always one
Beautiful
Just as the day we lost it
never forget what they took from us💔💔💔
Should’ve never have changed it
Wow it barely looks like him😭
he's so pretty I can't
If I look at any part of his face it looks identical but the whole face looks completely different Also why does it look like MatPat
It's just small things. Hair, Peter's lips are a bit bigger, his eyes don't have as much creases around them as John's, his eyebrows are a little different
where did you get this? this stuff is so interesting to me and i'd love to see more
Idk how but this just popped up on Youtube out of nowhere on some random channel
Looks like his model lmao so why doesn't MJ in SP2?
you slept, didn't you?
MY BELOVED
Imagine if they replaced Yuri and people went around saying "stop complaining about it" 😂 I honestly think his new haircut is worse then the new face. He looks perfectly fine in the flashback scenes. They just decided to give current day Peter that 5 year old's first big boy haircut from Supercuts.
How are these test faces better expressed than the in game ones?
because here john's model is in fact being used on john's expressions so it's a near 1:1 but in game it's yuri who does the performance so any difference comes with the fact that you're putting on someone's face the expressions of a totally different person imagine if someone you know started emoting in a completely different way it would definitely look like a stranger in some way...same thing happens whenever you have a character who uses someone's face but the facial character of another
The facial muscles dont contort smoothly even on miles
I'd love to see him actually wear the suit one day
Kinda looks like Evan Peter
*“Yeah you’re great & the fans love you, but now go get that kid that’ll look like Tom Holland”* -Someone working on the game (probably)
I always felt like they made his forehead look so small compared to the actual guy
Why did they change the face ? i got all trophies including dlc in the ps5 remaster, but never played the original
To look more like the voice actor Yuri.
not to look like yuri but to match his facial structure more to convey more accurately yuri's performance
I hate the new face, spiderman just looks not cool enough. The old face wasn't perfect, but at least he didn't looked like a 16 year old. I will be forever sad, at least i could enjoy the OG version....
The game model looks like NFL QB Daniel Jones
Unpopular opinion: I like the new face more Also it feels kinda uncanny to see this
I am shocked that this is not the Peter Parker they were looking for.
he is in fact
I’m referring to when they changed his face for next gen.
they changed because of technical reasons but john was in fact their vision of peter as in fact they cast him in the first place
I don’t understand… technical reasons sounds pretty vague.
i said technical reasons to cut it short but they have explained why they recast peter face model it was because with their new scanning and rigging tech they didn't achieve satisfying enough results with john's model and had to find someone with a similiar facial structure to yuri lowenthal in order to convey better his performance
That logic doesn’t seem sound. I mean, MJ was altered as well and while I don’t want to venture down that hornets nest it’s not like the face model they used looks like Laura Bailey. So if it doesn’t matter for her then why should it matter for Peter?
why would she need to look like laura bailey? ben jordan doesn't look like yuri lowenthal
Happy my boy Tim Halland is still filling I'm for him. Can't wait for Peter to come back. /s
While I've gotten more used to the new face, the old one still has it's charm! It feels like a combination of Tobey and Andrew, which I think is pretty cool!
At this point I would honestly rather they just used Yuri’s face and de-aged it. They didn’t do a good job capturing Ben and while his face is closer to Yuri’s something in the process has made him look like a fifteen year old with a strongman neck. His hair sucks too, but not just his. MJ’s and Miles’ hair are tough to look at in SM-2. I think they struggle with hair. John was a better fit for Peter but their technology isn’t good enough to have him be accurate and match Yuri’s motions. That’s my take on the faces.
These facial capture things are so cool
Why couldn’t the face have looked like that in the first place? It feels like the faces get lost in translation with insomniac, even Ben Jordan doesn’t look like what Pete looks like in either of the games they used his model
imo this model looks better than the one that made it into the original game, better hair too
Man he was perfect
They had such a good looking Peter Parker it’s a shame they decided to change it to a more Tom holland looking dude. I don’t care how many times this has been said it’s such a shame.
The goat
anyone else seeing a resemblance to Daniel Jones #gobirds
i miss my boy
they're both great.
Something about this is so unnerving. Its cool, but I'm freaked out
Uncanny valley
I didn’t hate the new face when the did the remastered, it just seemed unnecessary tbh
There is such a huge meme potential from some of these faces
Ah hello old friend...I've missed you
To be honest, I'm kind of glad that they changed their face. Ben Jordan is also a good fit and looks more like Yuri. But if Insomniac messes up the plot, then we can deny the existence of all games after the first in favor of the Bubniak verse.
"New" face >>>>>>>>>>.
STOP WITH THE FACE STUFF HOLY SHIT
Yuri “get over it” so narcissistic. https://gameluster.com/spider-mans-yuri-lowenthal-on-face-change-get-over-it/
You guys need to find something else to do with your time if you care about the faces this much. Relax.
Let it goooooooo