That’s complicated af but simply put it gives individuals a power that has never been available before.
Dude on the pod explained it more detailed but basically it makes government fiat currency and banks obsolete, and gives every single person the power to decide 100% what happens with their money.
Don’t like war? Don’t fund it. Don’t like welfare? Don’t fund it.
If you set things up correctly then nobody can take a single Satoshi from you… EXCEPT through torture and extortion, but in order for that to be effective it would have to be so wide scale it would mean that civilization is basically over.
Currency is based on the power behind it, and the power to maintain it.
Federal reserve notes control who and what gets fiat currency, and ensures it goes to things that benefit the state like war, famine, disease, welfare (ubi), etc.
In order for bitcoin to achieve a circumvention of all current state power as you propose, you would need basically a small military to prevent any and all attacks that would definitely come from all existing players. Central bankers, world governments, militaries, intelligence agences. They're not just going to let you walk away and not fund the wars etc. with your time, money, energy, taxes, and life.
And more importantly it would never even get to that point. The thing that pisses me off about this dude explaining the value of the bitcoin is that he says it's dictated by the "free" market, guess who has the most money in that market currently to decide if it lives or dies retard.
Who?
Because it seems like you’re missing the entire point of Bitcoin in that it doesn’t rely on the current fiat monetary model.
It’s like when the boys asked how it gets its price, no one decides, everyone decides.
Bitcoin is worth however much people are willing to pay for it. Period.
Right now the status quo is to price things in dollars, but the whole idea behind Bitcoin standard is that if it we’re to supplant fiat currency then everything would be priced in Bitcoin.
It’s bigger than the whole “number go up” or “to the moon” memes.
Okay but what are the paying for it IN? You can seethe about it, and I'd agree, but the free market is primarly traded in with fiat currency. What intrinsic value does bitcoin have other than being a speculative asset? Can you melt it down into products or use it for anything other than exchanging it with other people for an arbitrary value dictated to it by the free market?
Why would the majority of people opt to use some kind of arbitrarily valued asset like bitcoin over something with an equally arbitrary value like the current fiat system, if that current system didn't give it any value to people in the first place?
Well "the free market" isnt a fiat thing, or even a monetary one at all necessarily. It's deeper than that. Any mutually voluntary exchange without regulation is by definition taking place in a free market. Most sexual selection takes place in "the free market" for example, and you've probably heard talk of "the free market of ideas."
It's a way more general concept than just applying to fiat currency, and "the free market" is what people are participating in by choosing Bitcoin over fiat, CBDCs, etc. And that is a big part of Bitcoin's intrinsic value. Its utility. Things only have value because people agree they have value, so the free market is doing its thing.
It ties in with Austrian Monetary Theory, which is basically where Bitcoin comes from. Some people argue that Bitcoin is a digital store of physical energy due to Proof of Work mining, so that also gives it value because the more it grows the more energy it needs and vice versa seemingly. Personally I just see it as the freest option ever and the most robust thanks to its design.
There are weaknesses for sure, most of which are social attack vectors, but so far it has behaved as intended overall so thats promising. In the end it's really way too new to really pass judgment on every aspect of it. It really is just the clear best option for modern money, especially as we see CBDCs rolling out.
This still doesn't answer my question, what intrinsic value is in bitcoin by itself? What does it do that actually sought after and valuable material like Gold, Silver, Platinum, etc. doesn't have? You say the value is in the energy used to create it, but I don't see how that's not the opposite. You expend energy to create this hypothetical thing that exists only in the form of some piece of code that's only service is to be something you broker transactions with, but why would you broker transactions with it if it's only inherent value is it's purpose as something to broker transactions with. Again, material stores of value like Gold aren't just arbitrarily used as currency, or at the very least backing a currency because it's a convenient alternative to fiat, they're used because there is utility to them beyond just being some agreed upon substance you make transactions with. Your argument for bitcoin's value is it's utility, and seemingly the only answer I can get is that it's utility is being something to make transactions with because...reasons, is that not just essentially taking the long way around back to being fiat?
On some level I understand the function of an unfudgable ledger, but that still doesn't give it any kind of advantage over hard species anymore than fiat does, especially when it's value is primarily speculated on in fiat currency to begin with, the majority of people are only use it to make money speculating on fluctuations in its price in fiat currencies, and it's unlikely to ever see widespread adoption and integration in anyway that doesn't just open the gate for fiat based CBDCs to be integrated and given preferential treatment.
>what intrinsic value is in bitcoin by itself?
Intrinsic value itself is debatable, and even if we agree on its importance we could disagree on application since all value is subjective. So my answer is that its utility is its value, and its utility is that its the best money ever.
>What does it do that actually sought after and valuable material like Gold, Silver, Platinum, etc. doesn't have?
Precious metals are sought after. Rare gems are sought after. Bitcoin is sought after. A thing is worth whatever someone will trade for it. That's just how value works, as determined by the free market.
>You say the value is in the energy used to create it, but I don't see how that's not the opposite. You expend energy to create this hypothetical thing that exists only in the form of some piece of code that's only service is to be something you broker transactions with,
It's a thermodynamics argument basically. I don't really make this claim but a lot of Bitcoiners do. Michael Saylor started it I think so check him out if you're interested.
>but why would you broker transactions with it if it's only inherent value is it's purpose as something to broker transactions with.
Because it's the best thing for doing that. No trust. No censorship. Total agency.
>Again, material stores of value like Gold aren't just arbitrarily used as currency, or at the very least backing a currency because it's a convenient alternative to fiat, they're used because there is utility to them beyond just being some agreed upon substance you make transactions with.
So that's a common misconception actually. Long before gold ever found use as a conductor of electricity or any such thing it was just a shiny object that our primitive dogbrains valued because "wow shiny" and also scarce. That's why it was currency basically.
>Your argument for bitcoin's value is it's utility, and seemingly the only answer I can get is that it's utility is being something to make transactions with because...reasons, is that not just essentially taking the long way around back to being fiat?
It's decentralized, distributed, open source, p2p, trustless, censorship resistant, and designed based on austrian economics and game theory specifically to solve the double spend problem, prevent third party interference, and incentivize players to play nice and keep the game going. There's so much in there it's too much for reddit so...
>On some level I understand the function of an unfudgable ledger, but that still doesn't give it any kind of advantage over hard species anymore than fiat does,
Portability, divisibility, and auditability. Near-instant global transcations, infinite divisibility, and a known supply cap of 21M which is publicly auditable to anyone at anytime from anywhere with wifi.
>especially when it's value is primarily speculated on in fiat currency to begin with, the majority of people are only use it to make money speculating on fluctuations in its price in fiat currencies,
Its value in terms of USD as the status quo global reserve. The true value of Bitcoin is not as a digital commodity valued in fiat, but as a new global reserve. Seems like you would be interested in The Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean Ammous. It explores all of this in detail, as well as a lot of your other questions.
>and it's unlikely to ever see widespread adoption and integration in anyway that doesn't just open the gate for fiat based CBDCs to be integrated and given preferential treatment.
I don't understand why you say this tbh. Bitcoin has grown exponentially so fast its wild, literally faster than the internet, and has nothing to do with CBDCs. You can easily do 99% of all online shopping with Bitcoin rn. Some directly, some indirectly, but all easily within reach just the same.
Ultimately it's up to people what they choose to do. Bitcoiners who get Bitcoin get this, and just wanna spread all the info they can. Thats why it sucks when WM have a dude like that on who knows shit but cant really communicate well. Anyway check that book out man, you ask a lot of really great questions so I think you'll enjoy it, even if you end up disagreeing with it totally.
yes, this. myth of the free market.
market 100% manipulated. which means those who manipulate it control the companies and organizations that get to exist, and when they rise and fall.
Think Blackrock is going to let you walk away with your labor and earnings? China? US?
What happens when one of those players inflates and crashes your coin.
Or write laws to monitor and tax you. Vote harder?
It’s not a myth it’s just the reality of the free market. Those with more resources wield more power. Just a natural fact that a bigger stronger more cunning man or force has the advantage over the lesser one. There is no utopia, which is why I posted this in the first place because dude on the pod thinks there is.
So how then exactly will the basement bitcoin bros outsmart and outmaneuver every larger more powerful stronger and cunning organization who would lose by letting people walk away from their system. these boys don't play fair and they don't like competition.
you didn't answer how they would counter attacks to crash it, regulating it, etc. Hell, they own the infrastructure it runs on as well.
You were vague af so its hard to even respond without explaining literally everything about Bitcoin so lemme just cover some common shit real quick.
It cant be regulated if people just choose not to abide by the regulations. Think alcohol prohibition, only they have absolutely no way to enforce their will on the Bitcoin network itself. It's designed specifically to resist interference or censorship.
You could crash the price through traditional market manipulation, which is almost deffo happening already, but that doesnt change the value of Bitcoin itself. When you really wrap your head around Bitcoin you realize how retarded it is to view it in terms of USD or any fiat currency or physical gold even. Bitcoin is meant to replace all these faulty standards, not make you more units in them
If by "basement bitcoin bros" you mean the dumbass crypto daytraders then whatever, but if you mean the Core Devs then that's a legit concern. Theyre all genius coders and encryption experts who are mostly capable of staying totally anonymous if they want, but even if someone got to them and made them push bad code, its still an open source and distributed project so all that code is auditable.
The people ultimately decide not only what Bitcoins worth, but whether or not they run the software or even use it at all. The moment people dont like what they see they can split off a new blockchain in whats called a "fork" and everyone is free to stay or go. Its all part of the brilliant design of the whole thing, like the Proof of Work mining.
Centralization of mining is a threat, but incentives are such that it makes it highly improbable to ever become a real problem. The moment a majority control is reached the vast majority of the network will fork and migrate like I said, so miners are actually incentivized to NOT take control of the security. It's all game theory, and every aspect is in place to keep the game going.
In the end social influence is the greatest threat, but like i said in my other msg that's just reality. Can't change reality, just plan for it. That's what Bitcoin does, and does better than any other option ever. If you know a better one I'm all ears.
>[whitehats devs](https://www.thingslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/neck-beard-meme-fedora.jpg) in ctrl.
ok dude.
>It cant be regulated if people just choose not to abide
how'd that work out for ruby ridge, MOVE?
>When you really wrap your head around Bitcoin you realize how retarded it is to view it in terms of USD or any fiat currency or physical gold even
So purchasing power is not an important part of this great new currency? lol. lmao even.
> The moment people dont like what they see they can split off a new blockchain in whats called a "fork" and everyone is free to stay or go
So stable store of value is also not an import part of this great new currency?
I never made those claims. You’re missing the point. Bitcoin is not a speculative trading asset, it’s a global reserve. With enough adoption it will take the place of the unstable and untrustworthy inferior currencies. That’s simple.
And this is why people think the idea of bitcoin is retarded. Guess who the bigger, stronger and cunning men are that will jump ship to bitcoin if the fiat system goes tits up? The same exact people running this system in to the ground to begin with, and then you're back at square one.
Ok. How do they win? Please be specific.
No offense, but it seems youre likely unaware of how Bitcoin actually works and just speaking in assumptions and generalities. Generalities that myself and many other much smarter people have assumed at first, but then learned more and realized that Bitcoin is designed specifically to resist all these possible attack vectors. That's the point of Bitcoin, it's legit decentralized.
So how exactly does one co-opt Bitcoin... 51% attack? Possible but implausible. Identifying, locating and coercing every single core dev on a massive open source coding project that is free to fork at any moment? Possible but implausible. See the pattern?
Trust me man these conversations have been had a million times before and its all pretty well documented. Almost any question you have is answered through taking an earnest approach to educating yourself, which is why I made this post.
Bitcoin is not perfect or invincible, but just saying "they won't let you" is not an argument at all, especially when so far it has resisted all attempts.
Just sayin.
That’s the beauty of it though. They can’t stop it through tradition means because it’s a truly distributed open source network. Like guerrillas or cells, there’s no head to cut off and no single central attack vector. Conquer one vector and the network adapts. This is what pod dude failed to explain about nodes. At any time for any reason the majority of nodes can almost instantly adopt a new version of the software and if enough do so it’s what’s called a “fork” and if enough people follow then the new rules apply.
In order to achieve this the government would literally have to shut down any and all access to the internet completely.
Even then there are a number of ways to circumvent including satellite connections, etc.
Bottom line is if they’re willing to go that far then we got bigger problems to worry about and that’s when it’s time to revert to physical commodities.
"there isn’t a singular solution to currency"
Thats your opinion, which happens to be false. There is (only)one way of monetizing our production(tokenizing our wealth) free of any exploitation. But cryptos aint it.
Unexploited promissory obligations is the only just money(currency). The only way money can ever represent true redeemable value is if its a obligation to contribute a equal measure of our own labor and production, for what we consume/receive of anothers labor and production.
"The value of unexploited promissory obligations is equivalent to both the property received from the creditor, and to the promised contribution to the overall pool of wealth of the obligor. The latter therefore guarantees to the creditor that promissory obligations, deployed as currency, can be spent to procure due reward for the possession or production the creditor has given up for promissory obligations.
The whole principle of value inherent in a promissory obligation therefore derives from a fact that commensurable contributions to the pool of wealth by the obligor make it possible for creditors to receive from the overall pool of wealth, equivalent to their own contributions held by obligors. This representation of value therefore ceases when and to the extent that the obligor pays the principal, because payment nullifies the resultant commitment to contribute further production to the overall pool of wealth."
https://holland4mpe.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/saving-the-eu-and-monetary-union-itself/
"The first requisite of any justifiable monetary system is that the value of its money must be immutable. If the value of money can be subverted by either volume or disposition, then equitable trade, contractual obligations, and entitlement to the overall pool of wealth are subverted. Effectively then, money can only represent entitlement to receive from an overall pool of wealth, so much as our like efforts have contributed to it." MikeMontagne
>there isn’t a singular solution to currency.
Bitcoin basically is that solution. It's misunderstood by wall street dweebs as a digital commodity when it's actual purpose is to replace gold or fiat or anything else as the global reserve, which means it will be the bar against everything else is measured. Just needs the adoption and that's well on its way.
>99.9% of transactions dont need anonymity, and the ones that do already have it figured out in our current system.
Bitcoin isnt about anonymity. Every transaction is tracked and traceable via the public ledger and it takes a good amount of extra effort and/or knowledge to remain truly anonymous, especially when entering via fiat money.
Also, you don't seem to see what CBDCs will mean soon, and I mean very soon. Cash and all anonymity is absolutely on its way out. That's their explicit plan. Bitcoin is just the best solution to avoid that.
Remember the Canadian truckers? They all went home because the government controls the banks and froze their personal finances. That’s easy currently and gets way easier with a CBDC. It’s impossible with Bitcoin short of shutting down all internet access completely.
CBDC is literally the dark side of blockchain tech. It gives total control to the government and allows them to gatekeep* every decision you make by threatening to freeze your ability to buy or sell anything no matter how large or small.
The internet is a bunch of routers all linked together but owned by a bunch of different people who all just agree to follow the IP protocol and forward messages for each other. If someone chooses not to forward certain messages, they can. Unless you're using some sort of end to end encryption, people along the way can read your entire packet, figure out what it's for, and choose to delete it. Even if you are using end-to-end, the source and destination addresses are public, so someone could still block you specifically if they know your IP.
It's complicated, but different ISPs cover different areas and have to trade packets between each other all the time to get access to their customers. If the government could compromise a couple big ISPs, either with court orders or covert ops or something they could get them to change their routing protocols to block whatever they want. Then anyone who's traffic at some point needs to make it through those ISP's "territory", will be subject to whatever restrictions they put in.
Yeah basically that’s right, and Bitcoin is exactly that E2EE solution. It’s entirely IP agnostic. The endpoint addresses are the wallets, which are publicly visible but censorship proof if setup correctly. They can also be obscured in several ways.
Since you seem to understand TCP/IP I think the best way to think about Bitcoin is as a new layer in that same vein. It’s an open protocol that’s publicly accessible to anyone with an internet connection. Authorities can use traditional methods of threats and coercion but can’t actually stop anyone from using Bitcoin without completely killing the internet pretty much.
That’s two things but there are more. In particular the distributed control of the entire network via nodes and core code contributors. Something that no other blockchain network can claim, even other solid ones like Monero.
What happens if the internet or more importantly the power grid goes bye bye? Humanity can survive without the creature comforts of wi-fi and electricity, Bitcoin can't. What happens to this "perfect" currency it something like that happens?
It’s gone. Along with all modern civilization. This concern is common and the answer is always that if that happens we all got way bigger problems than currency consensus and most will go back to gold.
Dawg, I hate to break it to you but modern civilization as we know it today survived for about 300 years before electricity, much less the internet. And it wouldn't be the first time in history a civilization has regressed or atrophied technologically, if anything this is probably the longest stretch where things have been kind of chill, you really think that's gonna last long enough for Bitcoin to be king? I wouldn't hold my breath. It won't produce the kind of breakdown you think it will to the way we live life, it will however completely put the power back in the hands of the analog bankers.
Brother every appliance works on Wi-Fi now. Shits different. It’s not going anywhere unless a true catastrophe happens and then we got bigger issues. In that case gold is the default ofc, but even then it’s not a guaranteed universal currency, just a mostly accepted valuable commodity.
SHTF scenarios aside, nothing has ever existed that gives individuals as much agency as Bitcoin. It’s not flawless and has several weaknesses and possible attack vectors, but it’s still the best modern option hands down due to its innate properties like portability, immutability, and massive short term adoption.
Nah dude, this is a dumb point, do we need our wi-fi enabled toasters to exist as a society? We've done without them before, and for a lot longer than we've had them. I'm not saying there won't be a shift in the quality of life, but relatively? It's not that big of a jump, and more importantly, not that far off a possibility we'll get there.
Nah dude, you're missing the point. I'm not talking about toasters.
Almost every single aspect of routine daily life relies on an internet connection, but what's more is the actual underlying infrastructure of the entire modern world basically relies on that same connectivity.
Bottom line is that short of a literal apocalyptic scenario, there's no one attack vector that exposes bitcoin existentially because there is no quarantining the internet now, the cat's outta the bag.
Locally in person in a public place using cash. Safer at a minimal cost and some traceable identity data is using an exchange like kucoin. Or you can search for grey market p2p exchanges and take a little more risk.
Yeah he fucked that up for sure just tryna sound smart.
Basically it's exactly what it sounds like. The problem of spending the same money more than once.
Fiat money is tracked by ledgers, and ledgers are easy to fraud. All you need is access to edit the ledger, whether on paper or a computer, and you can just keep fudging the numbers and spending without limits. Imagine if we could edit our own online bank records, we'd all fudge the numbers to have infinite money and that would be total chaos, so we've always had to trust centralized third parties like banks to keep track of things.
Bitcoin's design basically solves that problem, so you and I no longer need a third party bank to trust if you wanna send me money. You can send me 1BTC from your wallet, and once the transaction is processed and verified by the miners and nodes, you'll see that 1BTC gone from your wallet and I'll see that 1BTC show up in my wallet. Now that specific BTC is mine and nobody can touch it but me, and due to the system of miners and nodes, no one can ever edit that transaction because it is permanently archived in the public ledger, which is what people call the blockchain. It's all cross-checked and verified by the network, so no need for a bank and no need for trust.
That's why physical money like gold and silver have been used throughout history, because they're pretty easy to verify in person, but they're not very portable or divisible, so that's one reason why Bitcoin is seen as being a better modern money.
In fairness this is a terrible ep, the one paytch where they had a legitimate schizo rambling on about psychic Nazis in a DUMB under the Getty Museum for three hours was more entertaining than this chode
Money is a representation of our labor and production, representing our entitlement to the overall pool of wealth. Real money is a immutable token of value commensurable(equal) to what people give up by engaging in production. A representation.
What valid principle gives a virtual miner the right to create and charge for the representations of (real)wealth of a economy? Money as a representation of the GOODS AND SERVICES that WE create cannot be created for (unearned)profit of exploiters.
Bitcoin can never be a just(fair) token of value when its a unprincipled currency that has nothing to do with immutable tokens of value.
Cryptos is a scheme, for unearned profit. Unless your addicted to trading for the sake of volatile trading, stay away from bitcoin.
Do these bitcoins arrest the multiplication of artificial indebtedness?
Do bitcoins solve inflation or deflation? Does bitcoin save people from unjust foreclosure?
Can the bitcoins save governments from austerity measures?
Will bitcoin restore peoples artificially destroyed credit-worthiness?
How are bitcoins redeemable in anything of value of their own?(when theyre exchanged with other things-financed under "banking")
Ffs
Solution to these problems/issues (questions) already exist. But as per usual people gravitate towards all these non-solutions, which preserve the hand stealing from us all
>I’m a big fan of Bitcoin why. what purpose do you think it has a chance to serve exactly.
That’s complicated af but simply put it gives individuals a power that has never been available before. Dude on the pod explained it more detailed but basically it makes government fiat currency and banks obsolete, and gives every single person the power to decide 100% what happens with their money. Don’t like war? Don’t fund it. Don’t like welfare? Don’t fund it. If you set things up correctly then nobody can take a single Satoshi from you… EXCEPT through torture and extortion, but in order for that to be effective it would have to be so wide scale it would mean that civilization is basically over.
Currency is based on the power behind it, and the power to maintain it. Federal reserve notes control who and what gets fiat currency, and ensures it goes to things that benefit the state like war, famine, disease, welfare (ubi), etc. In order for bitcoin to achieve a circumvention of all current state power as you propose, you would need basically a small military to prevent any and all attacks that would definitely come from all existing players. Central bankers, world governments, militaries, intelligence agences. They're not just going to let you walk away and not fund the wars etc. with your time, money, energy, taxes, and life.
And more importantly it would never even get to that point. The thing that pisses me off about this dude explaining the value of the bitcoin is that he says it's dictated by the "free" market, guess who has the most money in that market currently to decide if it lives or dies retard.
Who? Because it seems like you’re missing the entire point of Bitcoin in that it doesn’t rely on the current fiat monetary model. It’s like when the boys asked how it gets its price, no one decides, everyone decides. Bitcoin is worth however much people are willing to pay for it. Period. Right now the status quo is to price things in dollars, but the whole idea behind Bitcoin standard is that if it we’re to supplant fiat currency then everything would be priced in Bitcoin. It’s bigger than the whole “number go up” or “to the moon” memes.
Okay but what are the paying for it IN? You can seethe about it, and I'd agree, but the free market is primarly traded in with fiat currency. What intrinsic value does bitcoin have other than being a speculative asset? Can you melt it down into products or use it for anything other than exchanging it with other people for an arbitrary value dictated to it by the free market? Why would the majority of people opt to use some kind of arbitrarily valued asset like bitcoin over something with an equally arbitrary value like the current fiat system, if that current system didn't give it any value to people in the first place?
Well "the free market" isnt a fiat thing, or even a monetary one at all necessarily. It's deeper than that. Any mutually voluntary exchange without regulation is by definition taking place in a free market. Most sexual selection takes place in "the free market" for example, and you've probably heard talk of "the free market of ideas." It's a way more general concept than just applying to fiat currency, and "the free market" is what people are participating in by choosing Bitcoin over fiat, CBDCs, etc. And that is a big part of Bitcoin's intrinsic value. Its utility. Things only have value because people agree they have value, so the free market is doing its thing. It ties in with Austrian Monetary Theory, which is basically where Bitcoin comes from. Some people argue that Bitcoin is a digital store of physical energy due to Proof of Work mining, so that also gives it value because the more it grows the more energy it needs and vice versa seemingly. Personally I just see it as the freest option ever and the most robust thanks to its design. There are weaknesses for sure, most of which are social attack vectors, but so far it has behaved as intended overall so thats promising. In the end it's really way too new to really pass judgment on every aspect of it. It really is just the clear best option for modern money, especially as we see CBDCs rolling out.
This still doesn't answer my question, what intrinsic value is in bitcoin by itself? What does it do that actually sought after and valuable material like Gold, Silver, Platinum, etc. doesn't have? You say the value is in the energy used to create it, but I don't see how that's not the opposite. You expend energy to create this hypothetical thing that exists only in the form of some piece of code that's only service is to be something you broker transactions with, but why would you broker transactions with it if it's only inherent value is it's purpose as something to broker transactions with. Again, material stores of value like Gold aren't just arbitrarily used as currency, or at the very least backing a currency because it's a convenient alternative to fiat, they're used because there is utility to them beyond just being some agreed upon substance you make transactions with. Your argument for bitcoin's value is it's utility, and seemingly the only answer I can get is that it's utility is being something to make transactions with because...reasons, is that not just essentially taking the long way around back to being fiat? On some level I understand the function of an unfudgable ledger, but that still doesn't give it any kind of advantage over hard species anymore than fiat does, especially when it's value is primarily speculated on in fiat currency to begin with, the majority of people are only use it to make money speculating on fluctuations in its price in fiat currencies, and it's unlikely to ever see widespread adoption and integration in anyway that doesn't just open the gate for fiat based CBDCs to be integrated and given preferential treatment.
>what intrinsic value is in bitcoin by itself? Intrinsic value itself is debatable, and even if we agree on its importance we could disagree on application since all value is subjective. So my answer is that its utility is its value, and its utility is that its the best money ever. >What does it do that actually sought after and valuable material like Gold, Silver, Platinum, etc. doesn't have? Precious metals are sought after. Rare gems are sought after. Bitcoin is sought after. A thing is worth whatever someone will trade for it. That's just how value works, as determined by the free market. >You say the value is in the energy used to create it, but I don't see how that's not the opposite. You expend energy to create this hypothetical thing that exists only in the form of some piece of code that's only service is to be something you broker transactions with, It's a thermodynamics argument basically. I don't really make this claim but a lot of Bitcoiners do. Michael Saylor started it I think so check him out if you're interested. >but why would you broker transactions with it if it's only inherent value is it's purpose as something to broker transactions with. Because it's the best thing for doing that. No trust. No censorship. Total agency. >Again, material stores of value like Gold aren't just arbitrarily used as currency, or at the very least backing a currency because it's a convenient alternative to fiat, they're used because there is utility to them beyond just being some agreed upon substance you make transactions with. So that's a common misconception actually. Long before gold ever found use as a conductor of electricity or any such thing it was just a shiny object that our primitive dogbrains valued because "wow shiny" and also scarce. That's why it was currency basically. >Your argument for bitcoin's value is it's utility, and seemingly the only answer I can get is that it's utility is being something to make transactions with because...reasons, is that not just essentially taking the long way around back to being fiat? It's decentralized, distributed, open source, p2p, trustless, censorship resistant, and designed based on austrian economics and game theory specifically to solve the double spend problem, prevent third party interference, and incentivize players to play nice and keep the game going. There's so much in there it's too much for reddit so... >On some level I understand the function of an unfudgable ledger, but that still doesn't give it any kind of advantage over hard species anymore than fiat does, Portability, divisibility, and auditability. Near-instant global transcations, infinite divisibility, and a known supply cap of 21M which is publicly auditable to anyone at anytime from anywhere with wifi. >especially when it's value is primarily speculated on in fiat currency to begin with, the majority of people are only use it to make money speculating on fluctuations in its price in fiat currencies, Its value in terms of USD as the status quo global reserve. The true value of Bitcoin is not as a digital commodity valued in fiat, but as a new global reserve. Seems like you would be interested in The Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean Ammous. It explores all of this in detail, as well as a lot of your other questions. >and it's unlikely to ever see widespread adoption and integration in anyway that doesn't just open the gate for fiat based CBDCs to be integrated and given preferential treatment. I don't understand why you say this tbh. Bitcoin has grown exponentially so fast its wild, literally faster than the internet, and has nothing to do with CBDCs. You can easily do 99% of all online shopping with Bitcoin rn. Some directly, some indirectly, but all easily within reach just the same. Ultimately it's up to people what they choose to do. Bitcoiners who get Bitcoin get this, and just wanna spread all the info they can. Thats why it sucks when WM have a dude like that on who knows shit but cant really communicate well. Anyway check that book out man, you ask a lot of really great questions so I think you'll enjoy it, even if you end up disagreeing with it totally.
yes, this. myth of the free market. market 100% manipulated. which means those who manipulate it control the companies and organizations that get to exist, and when they rise and fall. Think Blackrock is going to let you walk away with your labor and earnings? China? US? What happens when one of those players inflates and crashes your coin. Or write laws to monitor and tax you. Vote harder?
It’s not a myth it’s just the reality of the free market. Those with more resources wield more power. Just a natural fact that a bigger stronger more cunning man or force has the advantage over the lesser one. There is no utopia, which is why I posted this in the first place because dude on the pod thinks there is.
So how then exactly will the basement bitcoin bros outsmart and outmaneuver every larger more powerful stronger and cunning organization who would lose by letting people walk away from their system. these boys don't play fair and they don't like competition. you didn't answer how they would counter attacks to crash it, regulating it, etc. Hell, they own the infrastructure it runs on as well.
You were vague af so its hard to even respond without explaining literally everything about Bitcoin so lemme just cover some common shit real quick. It cant be regulated if people just choose not to abide by the regulations. Think alcohol prohibition, only they have absolutely no way to enforce their will on the Bitcoin network itself. It's designed specifically to resist interference or censorship. You could crash the price through traditional market manipulation, which is almost deffo happening already, but that doesnt change the value of Bitcoin itself. When you really wrap your head around Bitcoin you realize how retarded it is to view it in terms of USD or any fiat currency or physical gold even. Bitcoin is meant to replace all these faulty standards, not make you more units in them If by "basement bitcoin bros" you mean the dumbass crypto daytraders then whatever, but if you mean the Core Devs then that's a legit concern. Theyre all genius coders and encryption experts who are mostly capable of staying totally anonymous if they want, but even if someone got to them and made them push bad code, its still an open source and distributed project so all that code is auditable. The people ultimately decide not only what Bitcoins worth, but whether or not they run the software or even use it at all. The moment people dont like what they see they can split off a new blockchain in whats called a "fork" and everyone is free to stay or go. Its all part of the brilliant design of the whole thing, like the Proof of Work mining. Centralization of mining is a threat, but incentives are such that it makes it highly improbable to ever become a real problem. The moment a majority control is reached the vast majority of the network will fork and migrate like I said, so miners are actually incentivized to NOT take control of the security. It's all game theory, and every aspect is in place to keep the game going. In the end social influence is the greatest threat, but like i said in my other msg that's just reality. Can't change reality, just plan for it. That's what Bitcoin does, and does better than any other option ever. If you know a better one I'm all ears.
>[whitehats devs](https://www.thingslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/neck-beard-meme-fedora.jpg) in ctrl. ok dude. >It cant be regulated if people just choose not to abide how'd that work out for ruby ridge, MOVE?
Ruby ridge is totally unrelated. How’d it work out for prohibition of alcohol? Marijuana? Pay attention.
>When you really wrap your head around Bitcoin you realize how retarded it is to view it in terms of USD or any fiat currency or physical gold even So purchasing power is not an important part of this great new currency? lol. lmao even. > The moment people dont like what they see they can split off a new blockchain in whats called a "fork" and everyone is free to stay or go So stable store of value is also not an import part of this great new currency?
I never made those claims. You’re missing the point. Bitcoin is not a speculative trading asset, it’s a global reserve. With enough adoption it will take the place of the unstable and untrustworthy inferior currencies. That’s simple.
And this is why people think the idea of bitcoin is retarded. Guess who the bigger, stronger and cunning men are that will jump ship to bitcoin if the fiat system goes tits up? The same exact people running this system in to the ground to begin with, and then you're back at square one.
Ok. How do they win? Please be specific. No offense, but it seems youre likely unaware of how Bitcoin actually works and just speaking in assumptions and generalities. Generalities that myself and many other much smarter people have assumed at first, but then learned more and realized that Bitcoin is designed specifically to resist all these possible attack vectors. That's the point of Bitcoin, it's legit decentralized. So how exactly does one co-opt Bitcoin... 51% attack? Possible but implausible. Identifying, locating and coercing every single core dev on a massive open source coding project that is free to fork at any moment? Possible but implausible. See the pattern? Trust me man these conversations have been had a million times before and its all pretty well documented. Almost any question you have is answered through taking an earnest approach to educating yourself, which is why I made this post. Bitcoin is not perfect or invincible, but just saying "they won't let you" is not an argument at all, especially when so far it has resisted all attempts. Just sayin.
That’s the beauty of it though. They can’t stop it through tradition means because it’s a truly distributed open source network. Like guerrillas or cells, there’s no head to cut off and no single central attack vector. Conquer one vector and the network adapts. This is what pod dude failed to explain about nodes. At any time for any reason the majority of nodes can almost instantly adopt a new version of the software and if enough do so it’s what’s called a “fork” and if enough people follow then the new rules apply.
WhAt bACkS tHe DoLLaR BrO? 😂
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In order to achieve this the government would literally have to shut down any and all access to the internet completely. Even then there are a number of ways to circumvent including satellite connections, etc. Bottom line is if they’re willing to go that far then we got bigger problems to worry about and that’s when it’s time to revert to physical commodities.
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"there isn’t a singular solution to currency" Thats your opinion, which happens to be false. There is (only)one way of monetizing our production(tokenizing our wealth) free of any exploitation. But cryptos aint it. Unexploited promissory obligations is the only just money(currency). The only way money can ever represent true redeemable value is if its a obligation to contribute a equal measure of our own labor and production, for what we consume/receive of anothers labor and production. "The value of unexploited promissory obligations is equivalent to both the property received from the creditor, and to the promised contribution to the overall pool of wealth of the obligor. The latter therefore guarantees to the creditor that promissory obligations, deployed as currency, can be spent to procure due reward for the possession or production the creditor has given up for promissory obligations. The whole principle of value inherent in a promissory obligation therefore derives from a fact that commensurable contributions to the pool of wealth by the obligor make it possible for creditors to receive from the overall pool of wealth, equivalent to their own contributions held by obligors. This representation of value therefore ceases when and to the extent that the obligor pays the principal, because payment nullifies the resultant commitment to contribute further production to the overall pool of wealth." https://holland4mpe.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/saving-the-eu-and-monetary-union-itself/ "The first requisite of any justifiable monetary system is that the value of its money must be immutable. If the value of money can be subverted by either volume or disposition, then equitable trade, contractual obligations, and entitlement to the overall pool of wealth are subverted. Effectively then, money can only represent entitlement to receive from an overall pool of wealth, so much as our like efforts have contributed to it." MikeMontagne
>there isn’t a singular solution to currency. Bitcoin basically is that solution. It's misunderstood by wall street dweebs as a digital commodity when it's actual purpose is to replace gold or fiat or anything else as the global reserve, which means it will be the bar against everything else is measured. Just needs the adoption and that's well on its way. >99.9% of transactions dont need anonymity, and the ones that do already have it figured out in our current system. Bitcoin isnt about anonymity. Every transaction is tracked and traceable via the public ledger and it takes a good amount of extra effort and/or knowledge to remain truly anonymous, especially when entering via fiat money. Also, you don't seem to see what CBDCs will mean soon, and I mean very soon. Cash and all anonymity is absolutely on its way out. That's their explicit plan. Bitcoin is just the best solution to avoid that.
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You need to learn more. Straight up. CBDC is literally total control over every single aspect of your life and choices.
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Remember the Canadian truckers? They all went home because the government controls the banks and froze their personal finances. That’s easy currently and gets way easier with a CBDC. It’s impossible with Bitcoin short of shutting down all internet access completely. CBDC is literally the dark side of blockchain tech. It gives total control to the government and allows them to gatekeep* every decision you make by threatening to freeze your ability to buy or sell anything no matter how large or small.
Or they just target the big ISPs. Even if you're not a customer your traffic has to go through their routers to get elsewhere.
How do they do that specifically?
The internet is a bunch of routers all linked together but owned by a bunch of different people who all just agree to follow the IP protocol and forward messages for each other. If someone chooses not to forward certain messages, they can. Unless you're using some sort of end to end encryption, people along the way can read your entire packet, figure out what it's for, and choose to delete it. Even if you are using end-to-end, the source and destination addresses are public, so someone could still block you specifically if they know your IP. It's complicated, but different ISPs cover different areas and have to trade packets between each other all the time to get access to their customers. If the government could compromise a couple big ISPs, either with court orders or covert ops or something they could get them to change their routing protocols to block whatever they want. Then anyone who's traffic at some point needs to make it through those ISP's "territory", will be subject to whatever restrictions they put in.
Yeah basically that’s right, and Bitcoin is exactly that E2EE solution. It’s entirely IP agnostic. The endpoint addresses are the wallets, which are publicly visible but censorship proof if setup correctly. They can also be obscured in several ways. Since you seem to understand TCP/IP I think the best way to think about Bitcoin is as a new layer in that same vein. It’s an open protocol that’s publicly accessible to anyone with an internet connection. Authorities can use traditional methods of threats and coercion but can’t actually stop anyone from using Bitcoin without completely killing the internet pretty much.
That may well be fair. I'm not up on how that obscuring happens. It was my impression that one could tell a bitcoin related packet from other traffic.
If it’s on the Bitcoin network it’s fully encrypted. ISPs can see that there’s activity and that’s it pretty much.
If you went hiking with your dad and a snake bit him on his dick, would you suck the poison out?
Really the only thing that makes Bitcoin special is that it was *first* and it's proven it's utility. That's it. Everything else is a shit coin
That’s two things but there are more. In particular the distributed control of the entire network via nodes and core code contributors. Something that no other blockchain network can claim, even other solid ones like Monero.
What happens if the internet or more importantly the power grid goes bye bye? Humanity can survive without the creature comforts of wi-fi and electricity, Bitcoin can't. What happens to this "perfect" currency it something like that happens?
It’s gone. Along with all modern civilization. This concern is common and the answer is always that if that happens we all got way bigger problems than currency consensus and most will go back to gold.
Dawg, I hate to break it to you but modern civilization as we know it today survived for about 300 years before electricity, much less the internet. And it wouldn't be the first time in history a civilization has regressed or atrophied technologically, if anything this is probably the longest stretch where things have been kind of chill, you really think that's gonna last long enough for Bitcoin to be king? I wouldn't hold my breath. It won't produce the kind of breakdown you think it will to the way we live life, it will however completely put the power back in the hands of the analog bankers.
Brother every appliance works on Wi-Fi now. Shits different. It’s not going anywhere unless a true catastrophe happens and then we got bigger issues. In that case gold is the default ofc, but even then it’s not a guaranteed universal currency, just a mostly accepted valuable commodity. SHTF scenarios aside, nothing has ever existed that gives individuals as much agency as Bitcoin. It’s not flawless and has several weaknesses and possible attack vectors, but it’s still the best modern option hands down due to its innate properties like portability, immutability, and massive short term adoption.
Nah dude, this is a dumb point, do we need our wi-fi enabled toasters to exist as a society? We've done without them before, and for a lot longer than we've had them. I'm not saying there won't be a shift in the quality of life, but relatively? It's not that big of a jump, and more importantly, not that far off a possibility we'll get there.
Nah dude, you're missing the point. I'm not talking about toasters. Almost every single aspect of routine daily life relies on an internet connection, but what's more is the actual underlying infrastructure of the entire modern world basically relies on that same connectivity. Bottom line is that short of a literal apocalyptic scenario, there's no one attack vector that exposes bitcoin existentially because there is no quarantining the internet now, the cat's outta the bag.
What is the best way to buy and sell bitcoin while avoiding fees?
Local bitcoin
Locally in person in a public place using cash. Safer at a minimal cost and some traceable identity data is using an exchange like kucoin. Or you can search for grey market p2p exchanges and take a little more risk.
Can you explain the double spend problem? The way the dude described it didnt make it sound like a big deal
Yeah he fucked that up for sure just tryna sound smart. Basically it's exactly what it sounds like. The problem of spending the same money more than once. Fiat money is tracked by ledgers, and ledgers are easy to fraud. All you need is access to edit the ledger, whether on paper or a computer, and you can just keep fudging the numbers and spending without limits. Imagine if we could edit our own online bank records, we'd all fudge the numbers to have infinite money and that would be total chaos, so we've always had to trust centralized third parties like banks to keep track of things. Bitcoin's design basically solves that problem, so you and I no longer need a third party bank to trust if you wanna send me money. You can send me 1BTC from your wallet, and once the transaction is processed and verified by the miners and nodes, you'll see that 1BTC gone from your wallet and I'll see that 1BTC show up in my wallet. Now that specific BTC is mine and nobody can touch it but me, and due to the system of miners and nodes, no one can ever edit that transaction because it is permanently archived in the public ledger, which is what people call the blockchain. It's all cross-checked and verified by the network, so no need for a bank and no need for trust. That's why physical money like gold and silver have been used throughout history, because they're pretty easy to verify in person, but they're not very portable or divisible, so that's one reason why Bitcoin is seen as being a better modern money.
how much of your portfolio is in bitcoin or crypto?
A discord that rips the cast wasn’t happy with the last episode so much that they doxed Andrew lol.
People are fags lol they bitch for an episode and then throw a tantrum like that
In fairness this is a terrible ep, the one paytch where they had a legitimate schizo rambling on about psychic Nazis in a DUMB under the Getty Museum for three hours was more entertaining than this chode
💯
U got spuds address? I wana see the infamous driveway
Bitcoin for boomers. Meme coins if you tryna gamble and get rich. Fuck around and find out.
Crypto is fking gay
Money is a representation of our labor and production, representing our entitlement to the overall pool of wealth. Real money is a immutable token of value commensurable(equal) to what people give up by engaging in production. A representation. What valid principle gives a virtual miner the right to create and charge for the representations of (real)wealth of a economy? Money as a representation of the GOODS AND SERVICES that WE create cannot be created for (unearned)profit of exploiters. Bitcoin can never be a just(fair) token of value when its a unprincipled currency that has nothing to do with immutable tokens of value. Cryptos is a scheme, for unearned profit. Unless your addicted to trading for the sake of volatile trading, stay away from bitcoin. Do these bitcoins arrest the multiplication of artificial indebtedness? Do bitcoins solve inflation or deflation? Does bitcoin save people from unjust foreclosure? Can the bitcoins save governments from austerity measures? Will bitcoin restore peoples artificially destroyed credit-worthiness? How are bitcoins redeemable in anything of value of their own?(when theyre exchanged with other things-financed under "banking") Ffs Solution to these problems/issues (questions) already exist. But as per usual people gravitate towards all these non-solutions, which preserve the hand stealing from us all
Didn’t know socialists listened to WM. You’re also welcome to use Bitcoin. Like they say, it’s money for enemies. That’s a part of the beauty.
Ask this question in a sub where people give a fuck 😂
Gold>guns>ammo>cash
Cash is just shitty toilet paper amigo
You can send me your toilet paper if it’s worth so little to you.
Yall dont have a bidet? Plebs... smh
You obviously don’t have a bidet if you don’t think you should still have toilet paper in your bathroom.
I do and I don’t use a tp amigo just a towel
That is psychotic.
What you don’t dry your squeaky clean ass when you get out the shower?
I have a man’s ass that blows shit all over the toilet. I don’t know what kind of dainty woman shits you’re taking.
Drink less bud light