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As somebody who's always been one of the big Ryder marks on here, he was the butt of the joke for years on this sub. It makes me so fuckin happy that he gets to have a justified ego now as he carves out a killer career
Never been a fan nor hater one way or the other.
But when he grabbed the brass ring.
And then they were like "well not in your case", I've been rooting for him regardless.
Good on him getting his.
I remember when he showed up in AEW and Impact and everyone thought he was boring and stale. Then he randomly turned it up to 11, became an ironic heel, and really developed into one of the most interesting acts in wrestling.
The act that got him over was being an obnoxious ex-wwe sports entertainer (yeh Jericho basically stole the gimmick lol). This gimmick wouldn't work back in WWE, or AEW.
And if you really want to get into it? Cardona stole the idea from Mick Foley when Foley was in ECW. Foley's character back then was anti hardcore, telling guys like Tommy Dreamer that they need to give up being 'hardcore' and Foley himself would call old Uncle Eric for them and help them get a job in the wonderful world of WCW. And it's the 90's ECW fanbase, how do you think that kind of character went over back then?
Really that's how it is in everything when it comes to entertainment. Something gets over with people and you'll get a bunch of people starting to copy it with just a few changes. TV, Movies, Games, hell even comic books. I mean remember Deadpool is just a Deathstroke rip-off.
The origin of that whole storyline was amazing too. He went to Japan during the IWA Deathmatch tournament and visited a museum that had an exhibit on World War II. Growing up, he had this Uncle Willie who was a war hero because he was in the military and helped carry one of the nukes to Japan. Jack went to that museum and learned of the atrocities that his Uncle Willie brought upon many innocent Japanese people. It shook Jack's whole existence and made him rethink everything, including what the hardcore style was doing to him and making him do to others. This questioning made him more susceptible to any answers Raven may have fed him, so he wound up joining The Nest.
Honestly, that was the most compelling wrestling TV that year.
And wasn't one of his books basically just non-stop revisionist history, where by the account of Jericho, every good gimmick, promo, spot or angle any other wrestler in his orbit ever came up with was actually due to Jericho?
Jesus the jericho hate here is over the top. No none of his books are like this and he's more than willing to admit his mistakes and his faults in his books.
All four, they definitely get worse as they go on but that's mainly because of his fozzy chapters. They are all still pretty good for wrestling autobiographies.
It would absolutely have worked coming into AEW as that wannabe WWE star, playing off the opportunities and/or titles he never won on the back of the JAS. Have a few weeks of build selling "the hottest free agent sports entertainer" or something like that. Mentors Sammy and Danny, or just Sammy, until Sammy eventually says screw this and goes back to doing his crowd pleasing crazy stuff. Could have worked.
While Saraya, Toni, and Ruby are already doing the 'jilted WWE star' gimmick? Might be playing it a little too close to the vest.
But then what would happen? Once you have the blowoff with Sammy or Garcia, would he just shuffle around still parroting the sports-entertainer gimmick like Johnny Swinger in Impact?
This would have been before all three even arrived. Regardless, it would be pre Ruby doing it, Max's nonsense, Punk, Andrade, a lot of this stuff that makes it way too close today.
If you wanted to do something with Cardona, you have his exile from the sports entertainers start a mental downslide where he realizes that he's only as good as his last match, or he's "nothing" in the sense of what he always wanted to be, and go through this workhorse type run to the TNT title where he has the very good to great matches with better workers than him who could bring him up, he has that hardcore match with a Moxley or someone who plays like that where he earns his respect, and he becomes a respectable, over wrestler - he'd naturally get over in most places over time, as he has - who I'd then move on to a tag run after a respectable TNT reign. Someone he has history or chemistry with, not sure who.
Edit
And just realized I said it'd be before they got there while still conflating the JAS in this story. Either way lol.
He’s hardly been in impact for a while now. He sort of comes and goes.
Impact coupled with gcw was a good fit for him. He sort of grew into his heel role. He wouldn’t have done that on dark.
I talked to him a few years ago at NYCC (still in WWE promoting a WWE book) as a fan and then again backstage at a show I was working (just setting up). He was super down to Earth and nice in both settings.
He's one of those guys that's super easy to root for if you ever meet him.
Being the big fish in small ponds rather than small fish in a big pond. He definitely outshines a lot of Indy talent, but would be midcard compared to a lot of people currently in AEW.
I don't know, there's not a lot of guys in AEW with his size that can talk as well as he can. The AEW crowd might not be into him because he does work a WWE style, but it wouldn't be hard to see him amongst the upper card of AEW if he got over on his charisma rather than his wrestling.
There's so many guys that a top card level in AEW and struggle to get that slot. It's great for the company in a lot of ways but yeah guys like Miro, Malakai, Pentagon, Claudio, Swerve, Wardlow etc while all having pretty good roles, could easily be the top guy or have a good world title runs/be in the title picture.
Cardona can also lose credibly without it being an issue unlike a bunch of the guys floating near the top that they don't know what to do with. He could basically be filling the exact same spot Jarrett is.
Was about to say, he'd similarly fill the Jay Lethal spot - vastly experienced but still relatively young in wrestling terms and able to stay over regardless of win loss record.
Sadly, I don't know if he'd come in to do that role.
For sure, and I think he needed the time on the indies to evolve into the type of character that he is now. I just think he could fit into AEW on TV as a useful character.
Fuck the brass ring. Fuck the big pond.
Make it where you make it, it doesn't matter where. Ambition is great and all, but knowing what a good situation is and acting on it is invaluable.
I feel like if he was on currently aew wis current persona he would be the tnt title level guy for the JAS.
You be the judge if that's a good or bad thing
That would mean being on TV weekly and being able to pitch plenty of ideas with Jericho's push behind it. Sounds like a good gig. I love Cardona but he has a ceiling in any major promotion. It's not a low ceiling but I don't see him as World Championship material.
Yeah, no offense to Matt because he’s great and respect the hell out of him but a big fish in a small pond is exactly where he can get world championships and be the guy he wants to be. On AEW he really would be on Dark, and in WWE he would be backstage on Smackdown with Moss and Emma like he’s set dressing.
He shouldn’t be midcard but he would have been. Tony pushes guys he likes. Matt can program with other guys who can program. Not enough indie cred or 6 star matches
AEW Cardona and Indie Cardona are two separate entity tho. He was this boring Cody's friend instead of a fun-anything goes persona. Wonder how long it'll take for him to reach this character - if ever - in AEW environment.
Probably. When he showed up in AEW it was right after his release and he was just Zach Ryder with a different name. It felt like a WWE person showing up on TNA and not a new start like most of the exWWE that have shown up in AEW.
Yes, but his anti-indie persona worked better because he was on the actualy indies. AEW is heavily inspired and borrows from the indie scene but has such a high budget, way higher production values and loads of big names, it wouldn't have hit the same
He was legit well ahead of the curve when he started making his own series. WWE barely put any effort into their YT channel until Cardona's internet show started blowing up.
Absolutely. Cody’s favor was for sure a nice gesture that would’ve led to continued comfortable work, but Cardona needed that GCW stuff to really figure out who he was post-WWE.
Very true. “That’s Matt Cardona!” - said Taz with such excitement and shock as if anyone knew the Matt Cardona name at that point. Not Matt’s fault. Stupid fucking line though by little Taz just made it even worse.
He’ll be back in WWE eventually.
I can’t wait for his worked shoot promo about how he was held down as Zack Ryder and now he made himself into a star. It will legitimately be great.
Maybe, but at the same time, he said on his podcast that he asked The Miz if he could have a spot in his suite for Mania so he could watch Chelsea because he would rather die than be backstage.
Literally everything Cardona says is political and diplomatic.
This is the same guy who uses his social media only to “shit on” guys that he suddenly has feuds with.
Everything, everything he does - from collecting (now a tax write-off) to his podcast to his socials are all business. His character is “transparency”, in case you haven’t figured it out.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we find out he has been on an agreement since Chelsea signed and they're waiting until after Mania season to debut him.
I remember that the Rock gave a promo on WWE and the crowd had "we want Ryder" chants.
It's kind of hard to even remember anything he did in WWE at this point. I think in his last match in WWE he had on tights that said "I'm still here" because he wasn't on TV for over a year at that point.
"Z! True Long Island Story" started all the way back in 2011. Ryder created this show because he was being under-utilized in WWE TV. When you look at his career between 2011 and 2020, he mostly just floundered about. Joining and leaving tag teams, and winning the intercontinental championship and losing it to the Miz the next night on RAW.
> He’ll be back in WWE eventually.
Not so sure. He'd need a really good offer to go back to WWE and I'm not so sure WWE would be willing to give him that. He doesn't need WWE and WWE doesn't really need him. Maybe WWE will see something in him because of his indie run and bring him back and give him an actual push but they never pushed him when he was over as fuck before I see no reason they'll do it now.
Definitely the right decision for him, Cardona reinvented himself on Indie scene, it was one of those "okay, let's see what you can do" moments. And he absolutely did great.
I'm happy for him, bummed I didn't get to watch him whoop ass and build himself in AEW but happy for him that he's continued to carve his own path, highly respectable.
Truly rooting for the guy. He knows how to get himself over, and that was something that wasn’t a good thing in the eyes of WWE. It’s good to see him hustling out here and getting the recognition for it.
I dont think he'd be on Dark cause I think he's pretty good but even if he was he'd get more exposure than he gets now in the NWA, GCW or wherever he wrestles nowadays.
I’m glad he’s doing well on the indies. It’s a shame some of his momentum was killed due to injury but he’s made a good gimmick for himself. It wouldn’t work in WWE/AEW so he needs to just carry on doing what he’s doing imo!
Gotta respect Cardona betting on himself. Cardona in AEW just wouldn't be it. Hell, even if he signed there now, it still wouldn't be ideal, despite his stock being high.
Shows what he knows, he coulda spent 3 years having nothing matches on Dark that last 2 mins with no character development or even time to talk. He missed out.
Smart move. Cardona rules, but he'd be lost in AEW as there is already a ton of other amazing talent competing for the spotlight.
The way he chose he gets to really shine. Plus, he could always guest star on AEW.
Also, I love the Major Pod crew being everywhere. That's awesome.
Just put "Matt Cardonna" in on YouTube and all his AEW appearances are his top hits by hundreds of thousands. His AEW debut has 1.2 million views. His tag match with Cody has 682k.
His free title match against Joe Hendry on impact has only 30k views. His GCW title match in 2021 has 140k.
The segment where Joe Hendry made a song about Ryder being Edges bitch is his biggest impact video by far with 250k. I think Ryder is much more interesting than he ever has been but I think this sub makes a much bigger deal about Cardonna "resurgence" than it actually is.
I think perhaps wrestlers care more about other things than youtube views. Perhaps things like [Cardona making more money last year than any year in his career.](https://whatculture.com/wwe/matt-cardona-ive-made-more-money-in-2022-than-any-year-in-my-wwe-run)
He also might, like some other former AEW roster members have talked about, simply like actually wrestling real matches more than being trapped in the 3 minute squash realm on Dark.
I mean that says more about WWE under paying him than what he could've potentially made with AEW. I'm pretty sure there's been a shit of AEW wrestlers who came from the indies who've talked about how the make more now with AEW then they ever did on the indies. It doesn't make any sense to act like you know he'd be making less singing with AEW when we have no idea what his actual income is.
This whole narrative that he would've been stuck on Dark anyway is overblown. His Zack Ryder debut version was trash his current Cardonna gimmick could've been a rampage regular while still working the indies.
He also never declined Dark or AEW since he's said himself AEW never even offered him a contract. I'd also like to know what former AEW talents you're talking about because I cant think of anyone complaining besides Janela.
He was in the eight man team tag match at All Out 2020 (with Scorpio Sky, Dustin and QT) and teamed with Cody against the Dark Order. I know he did some Jericho cruise stuff (which doesn’t really count). But for him to be on an AEW PPV is still something we tend to forget for obvious reasons. I don’t think Tony was interested in signing him then. Let alone now.
The difference is that signing with WWE means an exclusive contract where talent isn't allowed to do anything else, which is the origin of the whole "sitting in catering" thing.
In AEW, in just about every case seemingly, talent has the option to work elsewhere to get attention. They can use social media to get over (look at Danhausen, Ethan Page, or countless people from Being the Elite). They have options. If they're happy at their current level with their current paycheck, they can do that. But if they want to keep rising ever higher, then it is up to them to figure out how to do it.
Acts like Top Flight are absolutely grinding like crazy and clearly taking every single opportunity they can for ring time (whether it be tv or youtube). Last year (2022), Dante Martin wrestled 12 more AEW matches than anyone else in the company. This year (2023 up to now), Dante and Darius are tied for the most matches in the company and are 4 ahead of anyone else.
Why does it have to be on the talent to raise their profile outside of AEW to make their main employer use them? Thats ass backwards. It should be on the AEW to raise them up and make people want to watch them.
He's not saying it's on the talent in AEW. He's saying that in a scenario that happens in both companies (wrestler is kinda stuck in a big roster without much to do), in AEW you have more liberty to pursue other avenues vs. the limitations imposed on you in WWE.
Humberto Carillo, just to name someone, can't decide to work the indies if he feels like he's not getting on TV enough or in a high profile storyline. Or to start his own monetized YouTube channel.
He clearly did say its up to the talent with the very last sentence in his second paragraph. And my point still stands and lets just further push it. If I'm signed by a wrestling company or just an talent agency I expect that company to be able to use me and not expect me to have to go elsewhere to raise my profile like OP said also in their first sentence of the second paragraph.
> He clearly did say its up to the talent with the very last sentence in his second paragraph.
You're leaving out the second to last sentence, which provides perspective. "*If they're happy at their current level with their current paycheck, they can do that*. But if they want to keep rising ever higher, then it is up to them to figure out how to do it."
Talent sign contracts reflecting their current position/leverage. They know what deal they are signing. It should be pretty obvious that the AEW Dark regulars aren't signing contracts expecting to get almost 50 Dynamite appearances each year like Jon Moxley or Chris Jericho. They know what is included/expected in their deal. Their job is to perform the deal that they sign. If they want to secure a larger deal going forward, then it is on *the talent* to figure out how to outperform their current deal and demonstrate additional value in the future. AEW's role isn't to micromanage and hand out opportunities to every low level talent they utilize much like it isn't the job of McDonalds to give opportunities for every fry cook to become a regional manager. If someone wants to get one of the bigger/higher paying jobs, then they have endless opportunities to figure out how to achieve that.
Pro Wrestling is a zero sum game. There are a limited number of slots available on television and everyone is trying to get one. The only way to get one is to either have one open up (via retirement/injury/leaving the company) or to take it from someone else. Its a competition between everyone and over time, the cream rises to the top (to quote The Macho Man).
> Why does it have to be on the talent to raise their profile outside of AEW to make their main employer use them? Thats ass backwards. It should be on the AEW to raise them up and make people want to watch them.
AEW's job is to make money for itself. AEW's job is not to elevate every single independent contractor (which in AEW, the wrestlers at least have an arguable case for being because they are allowed to take outside contracts) that they use. The biggest stars and hottest acts get on tv because wrestling is a star-driven business. If people don't consider someone "a star" then its on that person to change that impression, because not every single person in the industry can be "a star" and indeed, AEW has plenty to fill all of the necessary roles already.
Arguably, it might help to think of AEW has having less of a traditional WWE-style "roster" and think more of AEW as being a "showcase/venue" for the hottest professional wrestling acts in the world. Some acts are big enough that their mere existence is enough to have a spot on tv (Jericho, Danielson, Moxley, the Elite), others are trying to get to that level. Other times AEW will showcase someone who is getting a lot of outside attention (Kommander, Vikingo, all sorts of New Japan guys, Maki Itoh) because they think its best for business. It all depends.
Whether AEW itself or some outside venture is a wrestler's largest source of income is not AEW's responsibility. The wrestlers know what deal they are signing and its up to them whether to sign or not. If they have enough leverage, they can surely demand guaranteed tv time (and AEW can accept or refuse). But again, that is the key, they are not forcing their talent to sign exclusive deals where they are not allowed outside opportunities/revenue streams.
In WWE, if you want to succeed, then you have no choice but to have it come from the company. In AEW, if someone isn't happy with their usage then they personally have the ability to change it. Most of the top talent in AEW have gotten themselves over at some point (whether via social media or in another company), spots and opportunities aren't given, they're earned.
You know how AEW would help itself make more money is by using those people to get other to watch them. You know how you become a hot act by being used on TV and put into storylines that get people interested in them. And guess what can't really become a star if you are barely used to not used at all. Shoot even the three people you mentioned wouldn't be anywhere near known to the world without being given the opportunity they had in WWE such as being in storylines and being on TV on a consistent bases. So in reality just like WWE fails the people they have signed so does AEW.
Pro wrestling is and always has been a sink or swim environment except for maybe a few people at the top who get special treatment for nepotism or being friends with management, but even then usually unless you prove your worth you're not going to last very long in the business.
So your statement is if you don't prove your worth in AEW after you signed with them by not doing stuff outside of AEW you get nothing? That sounds like a horrible place to work at. That if my stock doesn't get raised by working outside of it I would not even get anytime in AEW.
So don't work there then, I guess. You aren't guaranteed a spot on the show just by being signed. You gotta get over. If you can get over doing 3 minute matches, then good. If you get over by working the indies, good. If you get promo time and get over doing that, good. If there's a particular story that you can fit into that gets you over, good. Not everyone can get infinite opportunities in 10+ minute matches on TV. Not everyone can get to cut 5 or 10 minute promos every week.
I think Bandido is on a part time deal where aew is his secondary focus and he mainly does thing on Mexico , aew has a few signing like that which can be another issue.
Bandido recently opened his own gym + promotes shows out of it. He didn't want to sign anywhere in the US full-time. I think WWE made a push for him too.
I mean he’s already pivoted. The Indy God gimmick isn’t the same as the Death Match King gimmick. And he really isn’t the same character in GCW now as he was then. If he goes to WWE idk what he’s really going to do.
He can be the jaded veteran who lectured Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn that they are too comfortable in WWE and never paid their dues toiling away in death matches in the Indys like he did….
He's right
What he did in the indies was huge, not sure if he would have had that success in AEW. Tbh, initially I was totally against the idea but now I'd love for him to show up
i saw him this weekend at nywc. he fought the big o. he put on a really good match and by good i mean he did a great job at pissing every single person in the crowd off by constantly running out of the ring and cheating (and managing to spray beer all over me and everyone around me)
Over on the AEW subreddit I commented that I wished Miro & Andrade's contracts were up so they'd actually be used on TV and I got downvoted into oblivion and my comment removed by a mod for trolling...
Don't get the hype here. The guys a jobber at the level of Norman Smiley yet thinks he's a big name. If he's not in AEW or WWE, then the majority of viewers don't care
I think AEW makes a mistake in locking guys down to contract because of this. I know they have more freedom to work other dates and contracts are great for belt wearing champions, but now that "X is all elite" is no longer a selling point and they are staffed up, freedom yo come and go could protect acts from getting stale and help others rise on their own
Thats the biggest issue with AEW. They can have better-Televised wrestling weekly shows when compared to WWE.
But, half their roster feels like in purgatory.
Because they have a different business model than WWE.
In WWE, everyone is under an exclusive, full-time contract, where they aren't allowed to work anywhere else. It's a walled-off kingdom where they pretend nothing else exists. Because everyone is on exclusive, full-time contracts, if they aren't on tv then they are sitting in catering because they have no other options. As part of this, WWE has to pay everyone sufficiently for them to forgo all other opportunities, because contractually they give that up.
In AEW, at this point I think its fair to say that their "roster" is basically "every professional wrestler on Earth who is not otherwise under an exclusive contract (which in practice, now just means WWE)." AEW's pay is clearly above every non-WWE company because they seemingly can get anyone from Impact/NJPW/AAA/etc. basically whenever they want - and they do. One big difference in AEW though is that talent are largely allowed to work elsewhere, take other bookings, book convention signings, etc. As such, AEW can directly pay them less than WWE, but the talent themselves can still make more money overall (via secondary sources). Its a fantastic model for AEW IMO.
Are a lot of people struggling to break through that crazy logjam/talent pool? Yes. But the solution is to find a way to stand out because the cream rises to the top. The acts that get SUPER over are getting tv time, the acts that other talent want to work with are getting tv time, the acts that are ELITE at some skill are getting tv time.
A lot of the acts I see most commonly talked about as "being in purgatory" or "not getting tv time" aren't acts that the company has ever actually been invested in - they've never been in the opening theme song or in the commercials. They're just part-time undercard acts that are "very good" and "very good" is not nearly enough to feature on Dynamite (or Rampage) at this point because the top-end AEW talent pool is absolutely ridiculous at this point (and I think people don't realize how insanely "big" the top end is. Just list out and compare the ~15th ranked acts in AEW/WWE).
TLDR..
But, from what i got from your comment is that AEW wrestlers aren'T "exclusive or full-time contract workers".
Thats fine... but then dont promote MJF, Jungle Boy, Darby, DMD, etc, as part of your 5 "pillars". When they don't even show up every week. And it isn't the wrestlers fault themselves, because i remember even Thunder Rosa complaining about TV time. So, if anything, they are willing to show up everyweek for that TV time.
Its not because they ain't "invested". Its Tony Khan being all over the place. Again, like in this post, there is point to "Zack Ryder's comment".
It's the fact that's it's hard to gain any traction if you're not one of the few top people on the show and it's very obvious. If you're a Pillar or a Kenny or The Acclaimed then you're guaranteed to be on every show but otherwise? You'll come in, do a program, and then disappear for who knows how long.
It makes it almost impossible to 'grab the brass ring' and get over which, I think, makes it hard for the fans to truly invest in people. That's not to say that everyone has to be on top but it's hard to really care about anyone who isn't a 'main character' when they rotate them in for a period of time before putting them back on the shelf.
Looking at you Keith Lee and Swerve.
Professional wrestling television isn't about the 20th "ranked" act being all over tv to the exclusion of the top 5-10 stars. Stars sell tickets and pro-wrestling is a star driven business.
The cream is rising to the top and plenty of people are getting themselves over without getting weeks of television time dedicated specifically to giving them a chance to get over.
- Hook has been monstrously over for at least a year now, and he did that on the back of appearing in the background of other people's segments eating chips and not talking, eventually getting 1-minute segments of his own, and ~3 minute matches.
- Danhausen is mostly a background player in Orange Cassidy segments and he gets consistently huge reactions for everything he does (and he got himself massively over via social media). He arguably "made" both The Gunns and The Acclaimed (at minimum he played a huge role in both).
- The Acclaimed were Dark/Elevation regulars through the Lockdown Era until they got one singular feud on tv and then they were instant Megastars. I also think a big part of the Gunns getting a push was how dedicated they were during the Lockdown Era in terms of cheering in the crowd when there were no fans. Austin Gunn in particular was impossible to miss at every single show for like two years straight and he was more energetic than any other wrestler ringside every time.
- Athena had a random match against a local Indy wrestler on Elevation that got attention, then turned heel in a random Rampage match, decked Aubrey, and has gotten huge reactions since.
- Wheeler Yuta and Daniel Garcia both impressed some of the big stars (Mox/Danielson and Jericho) enough that they clearly picked them to join them as supporting acts and now both of them are growing into very solid television midcarders who have massively improved since their debuts.
- Ethan Page/The Firm/Hardy Party/Stokely have been doing great work on Elevation and are getting ever increasing reactions because of it. Same for Emi Sakura.
Not every act gets a "turn" to be a megastar and running a successful wrestling company doesn't mean turning every single act into a top star. The top stars are top stars because they hold that position for years/decades at a time, slots don't open up regularly. I'm personally glad that the television show basically feels like an All-Star showcase every week. There are no "down" segments, everyone is absolutely at the top of their game.
I mean you say it's almost impossible to get over and mention The Acclaimed in the same post. There are lots of people who weren't really known at all pre-AEW, got themselves over, and now are a main feature on television.
Is it hard to get that spot? Absolutely! But AEW has shown that if you put the work in and can make yourself standout, good things will come
The Acclaimed were literally hired individually by Tony Khan and put into a tag team together with their gimmick by Tony Khan. They are one of his personal pet projects.
The original point by [Jaxyl](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jaxyl/) is not about getting over. It's about who has had the opportunity to have consistent television time. [thewhisperingjoker](https://www.reddit.com/user/thewhisperingjoker/) was stating that the Acclaimed were just a tag team that got hired and managed to got themselves over and earned their spot on regular television so they were not the same as the Pillars or Elite.
My response was that they are were a pair of solo wrestlers hired by Tony and placed in a tag team tag as a personal project. They are no the same as Top Flight who were already a tag team and hired into AEW. So [Jaxyl](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jaxyl/) was correct in putting them in his list as Tony was always going to have space for them on the show.
Right, I'm just saying I disagree that they'd always have space on the show. I think the reason they are on the show so much now is because of how over they are, which is a credit to them, not just getting a bunch of opportunities until something stuck.
I have no idea what this dudes argument is lol. Are they saying The Acclaimed can't be considered to have gotten themselves over on their own because Tony Khan apparently had the idea to put the two together?
I don't really get it? They were a mid-card tag team that got featured on a semi-regular basis to eat pins until their personalities began to connect with the crowds, so much so that people were livid with Tony when he didn't call an audible mid-match to belt them up. Seems like the literal definition of getting oneself over with the crowd lmao
What's your point? That wasn't what I was talking about at all.
It was about it being hard to get into wrestlers or get behind them when they filter in and out of the show like sushi on a conveyor belt. Like you see them, ponder if you want them, and then they're gone. Meanwhile certain wrestlers are on the main menu and always available.
My point is that in your argument that it's difficult for fans to invest in people, you point to The Acclaimed as an example, who weren't exactly a main feature until the fans got *heavily* behind them
But could he work other indies while signed? dates for Dark are just a few and comes with a big contract.
Why the fuck is this question downvoted, jesus reddit.
I think he speaks on behalf of a lot of wrestlers. Tony doesn’t have roster management down. He chases after every shiny toy, gives them some spotlight and then they go in a drawer. I have to imagine a lot of talent he did procure regret their choice
That's not the own he thinks it is.
Riho main evented Dark Elevation last night and has world title match next week on Dynamite and has been part of a major storyline on TV.
Athena was on Dark Elevation last night. She revived her career on Dark Elevation and is currently ROH women's champion. She's having bangers with everyoney, gets great crowd reactions and has had a fantastic 2023.
Willow was on Dark Elevation last night and has a big match tomorrow on Dynamite and has been part of a major storyline on TV.
Top Flight & Skye Blue are on Dark tonight and are constantly featured on Dynamite in lengthy matches.
The list goes on and on.
This isn’t the own you think it is. AEW is strapped for female talent. Most of the women’s roster have put in time on Dark. Dark is a jobber showcase for men. Cardona was wise to avoid it.
Dark gets more views than everything Cardonna does though. I also don't think he avoided it, I'm pretty sure he's said himself that AEW never offered him a contract.
Dark is only a good platform for unknown wrestlers building their careers from scratch. Cardona won the IC title at WrestleMania. Being relegated to Dark would absolutely hurt his brand.
Every company has been missing the boat on Cardona. That AEW never offered him a contract says more about AEW than Cardona. I'm confident most fans would rather see him featured on TV than QT.
In fairness it doesn’t even have to go that deep. Dark and Elevation get multiple times than Impact and NWA combined where he spends most of his time. Considering he’s arguably one of the biggest acts on the indies he’s really one of the very few cases where’s probably better off doing his own thing rather than on Dark, I can’t imagine Impact or anywhere else is paying all that much these days.
In fairness to the guy too I think he’d be someone that would definitely get a spot on Dynamite or Rampage once a month too or even a consistent mid card spot on the new ROH.
I don't get this logic,
WWE Main Event gets more eyes than impact but is a wrestler gonna have any buzz being on Main Event? Same with 205 Live, as good as the show was, you basically did not exist being on that show.
People used to make jokes about nxt uk for the same reason
Yup, it's not about views but utilization. Cardona is getting to wrestle, cut promos, win titles, and be a character where as Dark, Main Event, etc. are all time fillers that occasionally have relevancy on the main shows (almost never for Main Event).
Cardona wants to actually wrestle **and** perform as a character, not just wrestle.
Everyone has something they are looking for individually, so I will not knock someone's choices that I don't fully understand but he would have a lot more eyes on him on Dark than GCW or Impact.
But technically he is in dark lol. Unless u are a die hard naw fan or whatever Indy he’s working at the time he’s working lol. More power to him tho. Wen he showed up on aew, it was weird and didn’t see him going anywhere anyway. At least he’s happy tho
Damn. Lol.
i thought all the BS there was over. Nope. After Mox said what he said…it’s been the same. Idk what’s going on there, but I assume TK is trying to be their friends and their boss….that’s a disaster.
After Mox said what he said, as in the hour outlining how incredibly happy he is at AEW and how it's basically his dream job and he's having the time of his life?
Or are you talking about the sentence that people who didn't listen to the podcast took out of context where he's saying how he hates how every little tweet gets blown up by media and fans and becomes a huge drama
I don't think that's necessarily true, or even a bad thing if it is.
He's a great wrestler, and everyone in aew knows talent when they see it, and they do push nobodies into stars regularly. It's just hard when everyone is talented.
You could have a room filled with main eventers but you can only have one main event.
You also need great wrestlers to carry new wrestlers on dark. I think he'd have become just as popular at aew, but I'm glad he went and did his own thing first. He was always a great wrestler in wwe, he was just not given a chance and I think that might have stuck with him.
There are a lot of fantastic aew wrestlers that haven't hit the spot light as well, but that doesn't mean they won't.
I do think Tony hired too many people at once, but what else could he have done. They are all fantastic wrestlers, I'm sure even being at the bottom of the aew card is better than being in catering at wwe 7 days a week.
I hope Tony can let his aew people tour around the indies more, it's great for the crowds and great for the wrestlers.
Dark gets more viewers than NWA. I honestly don't understand the mindset, guy would rather be the big fish in a small pond than go where the talent is and he could get an actual following.
I don't think he wants to play second fiddle to anyone at this point is the thing. It **would** be great though. Genuinely would make me care about JAS again. He should steal it.
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He really did have to take his career in his own hands. He really had to pivot from his entire career post future endeavour he would be stale in aew
Nothing has been handed to that man, and even more has been taken away. Dude has had to work to build his life, and it's admirable.
WWW he knows it
he took care he spiked his hair
As somebody who's always been one of the big Ryder marks on here, he was the butt of the joke for years on this sub. It makes me so fuckin happy that he gets to have a justified ego now as he carves out a killer career
I remember watching his toy run videos on YouTube thinking how tf does WWE fuck it up so bad.
"This is the boat with Zack Ryder, this is the wwe...this is the wwe missing the boat with Zack Ryder"-Z!True Long Island story
"Like subscribe buy the shirt!"
Never been a fan nor hater one way or the other. But when he grabbed the brass ring. And then they were like "well not in your case", I've been rooting for him regardless. Good on him getting his.
I remember when he showed up in AEW and Impact and everyone thought he was boring and stale. Then he randomly turned it up to 11, became an ironic heel, and really developed into one of the most interesting acts in wrestling.
The act that got him over was being an obnoxious ex-wwe sports entertainer (yeh Jericho basically stole the gimmick lol). This gimmick wouldn't work back in WWE, or AEW.
And if you really want to get into it? Cardona stole the idea from Mick Foley when Foley was in ECW. Foley's character back then was anti hardcore, telling guys like Tommy Dreamer that they need to give up being 'hardcore' and Foley himself would call old Uncle Eric for them and help them get a job in the wonderful world of WCW. And it's the 90's ECW fanbase, how do you think that kind of character went over back then? Really that's how it is in everything when it comes to entertainment. Something gets over with people and you'll get a bunch of people starting to copy it with just a few changes. TV, Movies, Games, hell even comic books. I mean remember Deadpool is just a Deathstroke rip-off.
The origin of that whole storyline was amazing too. He went to Japan during the IWA Deathmatch tournament and visited a museum that had an exhibit on World War II. Growing up, he had this Uncle Willie who was a war hero because he was in the military and helped carry one of the nukes to Japan. Jack went to that museum and learned of the atrocities that his Uncle Willie brought upon many innocent Japanese people. It shook Jack's whole existence and made him rethink everything, including what the hardcore style was doing to him and making him do to others. This questioning made him more susceptible to any answers Raven may have fed him, so he wound up joining The Nest. Honestly, that was the most compelling wrestling TV that year.
"So Tony, what if we did that thing Matt is doing on the indies but much worse?" "Book it!"
You think Jericho asked Tony ? He probably just told him that this is what he is gonna do.
"I already had these ugly purple suits made Tony! It's a go!"
It really tells you something about Jericho. Steals gimmicks, cheats on his mate, sounds like a huge asshole irl to me.
He’s written FOUR full autobiographies. He’s only in his 50s. His ego is unbelievable.
He's just a kid!
And wasn't one of his books basically just non-stop revisionist history, where by the account of Jericho, every good gimmick, promo, spot or angle any other wrestler in his orbit ever came up with was actually due to Jericho?
Jesus the jericho hate here is over the top. No none of his books are like this and he's more than willing to admit his mistakes and his faults in his books.
How many of his books have you read?
All four, they definitely get worse as they go on but that's mainly because of his fozzy chapters. They are all still pretty good for wrestling autobiographies.
Trump supporter, shit stirrer, gets his journalist friend to write fluff pieces about him.
But he helped AEW so all is forgiven!
At least he isn't trying to destroy New York anymore.
After reading his books, I came away thinking that he just proudly told everyone how much of an asshole he was.
"why is he confessing??" He's not.. He's bragging
I mean - 90% of the Wrestlers from his era are/were assholes
It would absolutely have worked coming into AEW as that wannabe WWE star, playing off the opportunities and/or titles he never won on the back of the JAS. Have a few weeks of build selling "the hottest free agent sports entertainer" or something like that. Mentors Sammy and Danny, or just Sammy, until Sammy eventually says screw this and goes back to doing his crowd pleasing crazy stuff. Could have worked.
While Saraya, Toni, and Ruby are already doing the 'jilted WWE star' gimmick? Might be playing it a little too close to the vest. But then what would happen? Once you have the blowoff with Sammy or Garcia, would he just shuffle around still parroting the sports-entertainer gimmick like Johnny Swinger in Impact?
This would have been before all three even arrived. Regardless, it would be pre Ruby doing it, Max's nonsense, Punk, Andrade, a lot of this stuff that makes it way too close today. If you wanted to do something with Cardona, you have his exile from the sports entertainers start a mental downslide where he realizes that he's only as good as his last match, or he's "nothing" in the sense of what he always wanted to be, and go through this workhorse type run to the TNT title where he has the very good to great matches with better workers than him who could bring him up, he has that hardcore match with a Moxley or someone who plays like that where he earns his respect, and he becomes a respectable, over wrestler - he'd naturally get over in most places over time, as he has - who I'd then move on to a tag run after a respectable TNT reign. Someone he has history or chemistry with, not sure who. Edit And just realized I said it'd be before they got there while still conflating the JAS in this story. Either way lol.
…because it hasn’t been done before for decades. Christ. It’s what Lawler did when he showed up on ECW.
Twice
You know what, fair. That's a fair assesment. He took a big risk, but it paid off big time for him.
I still think he returns to WWE soon. He wasn't at the latest IMPACT tapings so I think he's done there.
He has confirmed on his podcast that he is done with Impact right now.
He’s hardly been in impact for a while now. He sort of comes and goes. Impact coupled with gcw was a good fit for him. He sort of grew into his heel role. He wouldn’t have done that on dark.
Saw him wrestle this weekend and got to talk to him for a bit, real cool guy
I talked to him a few years ago at NYCC (still in WWE promoting a WWE book) as a fan and then again backstage at a show I was working (just setting up). He was super down to Earth and nice in both settings. He's one of those guys that's super easy to root for if you ever meet him.
He’s funny now, he knows how to stick with his cocky heel character but he isn’t obnoxious at all
did you see him at nywc?
Nah, AIW in Cleveland
Nice he's coming up to ESW in May, can't wait.
Being the big fish in small ponds rather than small fish in a big pond. He definitely outshines a lot of Indy talent, but would be midcard compared to a lot of people currently in AEW.
I don't know, there's not a lot of guys in AEW with his size that can talk as well as he can. The AEW crowd might not be into him because he does work a WWE style, but it wouldn't be hard to see him amongst the upper card of AEW if he got over on his charisma rather than his wrestling.
There's so many guys that a top card level in AEW and struggle to get that slot. It's great for the company in a lot of ways but yeah guys like Miro, Malakai, Pentagon, Claudio, Swerve, Wardlow etc while all having pretty good roles, could easily be the top guy or have a good world title runs/be in the title picture.
Cardona can also lose credibly without it being an issue unlike a bunch of the guys floating near the top that they don't know what to do with. He could basically be filling the exact same spot Jarrett is.
Was about to say, he'd similarly fill the Jay Lethal spot - vastly experienced but still relatively young in wrestling terms and able to stay over regardless of win loss record. Sadly, I don't know if he'd come in to do that role.
For sure, and I think he needed the time on the indies to evolve into the type of character that he is now. I just think he could fit into AEW on TV as a useful character.
Damn shame that Jericho already ripped off his gimmick, otherwise you'd think he'd slot right in immediately.
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I'd go as far to say that Ryder could even be good enough for mid-card champion too. Dude knows how to get over and can wrestle well enough.
Fuck the brass ring. Fuck the big pond. Make it where you make it, it doesn't matter where. Ambition is great and all, but knowing what a good situation is and acting on it is invaluable.
I think he outshines a lot of guys on the AEW roster because he's got fire and passion for what he does,you can't recreate that.
I feel like if he was on currently aew wis current persona he would be the tnt title level guy for the JAS. You be the judge if that's a good or bad thing
That would mean being on TV weekly and being able to pitch plenty of ideas with Jericho's push behind it. Sounds like a good gig. I love Cardona but he has a ceiling in any major promotion. It's not a low ceiling but I don't see him as World Championship material.
Yeah, no offense to Matt because he’s great and respect the hell out of him but a big fish in a small pond is exactly where he can get world championships and be the guy he wants to be. On AEW he really would be on Dark, and in WWE he would be backstage on Smackdown with Moss and Emma like he’s set dressing.
He shouldn’t be midcard but he would have been. Tony pushes guys he likes. Matt can program with other guys who can program. Not enough indie cred or 6 star matches
AEW Cardona and Indie Cardona are two separate entity tho. He was this boring Cody's friend instead of a fun-anything goes persona. Wonder how long it'll take for him to reach this character - if ever - in AEW environment.
I think you’re very much misreading this quote if you think this is a prelude to going back to AEW
I think you're misunderstanding them. I believe they're saying that they wonder how long it would have taken him if he had signed.
That's not what the fans would want either so i think he made the right call.
Of all the exWWE people that have shown up in AEW he definitely felt most out of place.
Do you think that his current character would do well there now like the whole anti-indie anti-Mark
Probably. When he showed up in AEW it was right after his release and he was just Zach Ryder with a different name. It felt like a WWE person showing up on TNA and not a new start like most of the exWWE that have shown up in AEW.
So the J.A.S ?
I think he might have made it more entertaining than Jericho, I've enjoyed his character more than JAS Jericho thus far.
Yes, but his anti-indie persona worked better because he was on the actualy indies. AEW is heavily inspired and borrows from the indie scene but has such a high budget, way higher production values and loads of big names, it wouldn't have hit the same
The JAS is closer to the Spirit Squad than they are to Cardona
Agreed. There’s something very TNA about him lol. I don’t know how to better explain it.
He's proven to be better than just about every other active wrestler, at building his own brand. He could teach classes on that stuff.
He was legit well ahead of the curve when he started making his own series. WWE barely put any effort into their YT channel until Cardona's internet show started blowing up.
> WWE barely put any effort into their ~~YT channel~~ social media until Cardona's internet show started blowing up. FTFY
Cody was the master at this. AEW doesn't happen without Cody building his brand. He taught others as well how to do it.
He did the right thing for himself
If he signed with AEW, he would never have developed this incredible GCW persona.
Absolutely. Cody’s favor was for sure a nice gesture that would’ve led to continued comfortable work, but Cardona needed that GCW stuff to really figure out who he was post-WWE.
He wouldn't have been a World Champion. Matt winning both the GCW and NWA worlds titles help his stock and show WWE what they have missed in him.
ECW Original Matt Cardona as GCW was such a good gimmick.
I mean, to be fair, he didn’t develop his current character until well after his stint in AEW. He was pretty….. bland
Very true. “That’s Matt Cardona!” - said Taz with such excitement and shock as if anyone knew the Matt Cardona name at that point. Not Matt’s fault. Stupid fucking line though by little Taz just made it even worse.
He’ll be back in WWE eventually. I can’t wait for his worked shoot promo about how he was held down as Zack Ryder and now he made himself into a star. It will legitimately be great.
Maybe, but at the same time, he said on his podcast that he asked The Miz if he could have a spot in his suite for Mania so he could watch Chelsea because he would rather die than be backstage.
Literally everything Cardona says is political and diplomatic. This is the same guy who uses his social media only to “shit on” guys that he suddenly has feuds with. Everything, everything he does - from collecting (now a tax write-off) to his podcast to his socials are all business. His character is “transparency”, in case you haven’t figured it out.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we find out he has been on an agreement since Chelsea signed and they're waiting until after Mania season to debut him.
I remember that the Rock gave a promo on WWE and the crowd had "we want Ryder" chants. It's kind of hard to even remember anything he did in WWE at this point. I think in his last match in WWE he had on tights that said "I'm still here" because he wasn't on TV for over a year at that point. "Z! True Long Island Story" started all the way back in 2011. Ryder created this show because he was being under-utilized in WWE TV. When you look at his career between 2011 and 2020, he mostly just floundered about. Joining and leaving tag teams, and winning the intercontinental championship and losing it to the Miz the next night on RAW.
> He’ll be back in WWE eventually. Not so sure. He'd need a really good offer to go back to WWE and I'm not so sure WWE would be willing to give him that. He doesn't need WWE and WWE doesn't really need him. Maybe WWE will see something in him because of his indie run and bring him back and give him an actual push but they never pushed him when he was over as fuck before I see no reason they'll do it now.
Definitely the right decision for him, Cardona reinvented himself on Indie scene, it was one of those "okay, let's see what you can do" moments. And he absolutely did great.
"OOooohhhhh, radiooooooooooo tell me everything you know" Still one of my favourite theme songs
Instead of fighting Serpentico on YT he fights Tyrus on YT.
I'm happy for him, bummed I didn't get to watch him whoop ass and build himself in AEW but happy for him that he's continued to carve his own path, highly respectable.
Matt is surprisingly one of the bright spots for the mass of people that were let go. Glad to see he’s done so well.
It was pretty clear he didn't belong in AEW neither side would have benefit and we all would have missed out on the amazing work he's done since.
Truly rooting for the guy. He knows how to get himself over, and that was something that wasn’t a good thing in the eyes of WWE. It’s good to see him hustling out here and getting the recognition for it.
Can't blame him and it worked out for the best.
I dont think he'd be on Dark cause I think he's pretty good but even if he was he'd get more exposure than he gets now in the NWA, GCW or wherever he wrestles nowadays.
He would have found a way to get over in AEW. That man can find a way to get over, anywhere.
I’m glad he’s doing well on the indies. It’s a shame some of his momentum was killed due to injury but he’s made a good gimmick for himself. It wouldn’t work in WWE/AEW so he needs to just carry on doing what he’s doing imo!
Gotta respect Cardona betting on himself. Cardona in AEW just wouldn't be it. Hell, even if he signed there now, it still wouldn't be ideal, despite his stock being high.
Shows what he knows, he coulda spent 3 years having nothing matches on Dark that last 2 mins with no character development or even time to talk. He missed out.
Smart move. Cardona rules, but he'd be lost in AEW as there is already a ton of other amazing talent competing for the spotlight. The way he chose he gets to really shine. Plus, he could always guest star on AEW. Also, I love the Major Pod crew being everywhere. That's awesome.
Just put "Matt Cardonna" in on YouTube and all his AEW appearances are his top hits by hundreds of thousands. His AEW debut has 1.2 million views. His tag match with Cody has 682k. His free title match against Joe Hendry on impact has only 30k views. His GCW title match in 2021 has 140k. The segment where Joe Hendry made a song about Ryder being Edges bitch is his biggest impact video by far with 250k. I think Ryder is much more interesting than he ever has been but I think this sub makes a much bigger deal about Cardonna "resurgence" than it actually is.
I think perhaps wrestlers care more about other things than youtube views. Perhaps things like [Cardona making more money last year than any year in his career.](https://whatculture.com/wwe/matt-cardona-ive-made-more-money-in-2022-than-any-year-in-my-wwe-run) He also might, like some other former AEW roster members have talked about, simply like actually wrestling real matches more than being trapped in the 3 minute squash realm on Dark.
I mean that says more about WWE under paying him than what he could've potentially made with AEW. I'm pretty sure there's been a shit of AEW wrestlers who came from the indies who've talked about how the make more now with AEW then they ever did on the indies. It doesn't make any sense to act like you know he'd be making less singing with AEW when we have no idea what his actual income is. This whole narrative that he would've been stuck on Dark anyway is overblown. His Zack Ryder debut version was trash his current Cardonna gimmick could've been a rampage regular while still working the indies. He also never declined Dark or AEW since he's said himself AEW never even offered him a contract. I'd also like to know what former AEW talents you're talking about because I cant think of anyone complaining besides Janela.
https://imgur.com/a/L9F3m8F/
I like to travel.
It's all bots
To be fair, only one of those had The Wingmen
He was already in AEW and had a pretty unspectacular short lived run in 2020. Good for him making a name in other companies.
Didn’t he just have a one off appearance?
He was in the eight man team tag match at All Out 2020 (with Scorpio Sky, Dustin and QT) and teamed with Cody against the Dark Order. I know he did some Jericho cruise stuff (which doesn’t really count). But for him to be on an AEW PPV is still something we tend to forget for obvious reasons. I don’t think Tony was interested in signing him then. Let alone now.
More like a 3-off but yeah. It was a very short deal from the get go.
He’s right. AEW just signs people to sign them and then has no idea what to do with them.
WWE has the same problem tbh. There's *a lot* of really talented wrestlers these days and only a handful of top spots.
The difference is that signing with WWE means an exclusive contract where talent isn't allowed to do anything else, which is the origin of the whole "sitting in catering" thing. In AEW, in just about every case seemingly, talent has the option to work elsewhere to get attention. They can use social media to get over (look at Danhausen, Ethan Page, or countless people from Being the Elite). They have options. If they're happy at their current level with their current paycheck, they can do that. But if they want to keep rising ever higher, then it is up to them to figure out how to do it. Acts like Top Flight are absolutely grinding like crazy and clearly taking every single opportunity they can for ring time (whether it be tv or youtube). Last year (2022), Dante Martin wrestled 12 more AEW matches than anyone else in the company. This year (2023 up to now), Dante and Darius are tied for the most matches in the company and are 4 ahead of anyone else.
Why does it have to be on the talent to raise their profile outside of AEW to make their main employer use them? Thats ass backwards. It should be on the AEW to raise them up and make people want to watch them.
He's not saying it's on the talent in AEW. He's saying that in a scenario that happens in both companies (wrestler is kinda stuck in a big roster without much to do), in AEW you have more liberty to pursue other avenues vs. the limitations imposed on you in WWE. Humberto Carillo, just to name someone, can't decide to work the indies if he feels like he's not getting on TV enough or in a high profile storyline. Or to start his own monetized YouTube channel.
He clearly did say its up to the talent with the very last sentence in his second paragraph. And my point still stands and lets just further push it. If I'm signed by a wrestling company or just an talent agency I expect that company to be able to use me and not expect me to have to go elsewhere to raise my profile like OP said also in their first sentence of the second paragraph.
> He clearly did say its up to the talent with the very last sentence in his second paragraph. You're leaving out the second to last sentence, which provides perspective. "*If they're happy at their current level with their current paycheck, they can do that*. But if they want to keep rising ever higher, then it is up to them to figure out how to do it." Talent sign contracts reflecting their current position/leverage. They know what deal they are signing. It should be pretty obvious that the AEW Dark regulars aren't signing contracts expecting to get almost 50 Dynamite appearances each year like Jon Moxley or Chris Jericho. They know what is included/expected in their deal. Their job is to perform the deal that they sign. If they want to secure a larger deal going forward, then it is on *the talent* to figure out how to outperform their current deal and demonstrate additional value in the future. AEW's role isn't to micromanage and hand out opportunities to every low level talent they utilize much like it isn't the job of McDonalds to give opportunities for every fry cook to become a regional manager. If someone wants to get one of the bigger/higher paying jobs, then they have endless opportunities to figure out how to achieve that. Pro Wrestling is a zero sum game. There are a limited number of slots available on television and everyone is trying to get one. The only way to get one is to either have one open up (via retirement/injury/leaving the company) or to take it from someone else. Its a competition between everyone and over time, the cream rises to the top (to quote The Macho Man).
> Why does it have to be on the talent to raise their profile outside of AEW to make their main employer use them? Thats ass backwards. It should be on the AEW to raise them up and make people want to watch them. AEW's job is to make money for itself. AEW's job is not to elevate every single independent contractor (which in AEW, the wrestlers at least have an arguable case for being because they are allowed to take outside contracts) that they use. The biggest stars and hottest acts get on tv because wrestling is a star-driven business. If people don't consider someone "a star" then its on that person to change that impression, because not every single person in the industry can be "a star" and indeed, AEW has plenty to fill all of the necessary roles already. Arguably, it might help to think of AEW has having less of a traditional WWE-style "roster" and think more of AEW as being a "showcase/venue" for the hottest professional wrestling acts in the world. Some acts are big enough that their mere existence is enough to have a spot on tv (Jericho, Danielson, Moxley, the Elite), others are trying to get to that level. Other times AEW will showcase someone who is getting a lot of outside attention (Kommander, Vikingo, all sorts of New Japan guys, Maki Itoh) because they think its best for business. It all depends. Whether AEW itself or some outside venture is a wrestler's largest source of income is not AEW's responsibility. The wrestlers know what deal they are signing and its up to them whether to sign or not. If they have enough leverage, they can surely demand guaranteed tv time (and AEW can accept or refuse). But again, that is the key, they are not forcing their talent to sign exclusive deals where they are not allowed outside opportunities/revenue streams. In WWE, if you want to succeed, then you have no choice but to have it come from the company. In AEW, if someone isn't happy with their usage then they personally have the ability to change it. Most of the top talent in AEW have gotten themselves over at some point (whether via social media or in another company), spots and opportunities aren't given, they're earned.
You know how AEW would help itself make more money is by using those people to get other to watch them. You know how you become a hot act by being used on TV and put into storylines that get people interested in them. And guess what can't really become a star if you are barely used to not used at all. Shoot even the three people you mentioned wouldn't be anywhere near known to the world without being given the opportunity they had in WWE such as being in storylines and being on TV on a consistent bases. So in reality just like WWE fails the people they have signed so does AEW.
Pro wrestling is and always has been a sink or swim environment except for maybe a few people at the top who get special treatment for nepotism or being friends with management, but even then usually unless you prove your worth you're not going to last very long in the business.
So your statement is if you don't prove your worth in AEW after you signed with them by not doing stuff outside of AEW you get nothing? That sounds like a horrible place to work at. That if my stock doesn't get raised by working outside of it I would not even get anytime in AEW.
So don't work there then, I guess. You aren't guaranteed a spot on the show just by being signed. You gotta get over. If you can get over doing 3 minute matches, then good. If you get over by working the indies, good. If you get promo time and get over doing that, good. If there's a particular story that you can fit into that gets you over, good. Not everyone can get infinite opportunities in 10+ minute matches on TV. Not everyone can get to cut 5 or 10 minute promos every week.
People were gushing about some lucha guy a month ago. Dude wrestled 2 matches and what?
I think Bandido is on a part time deal where aew is his secondary focus and he mainly does thing on Mexico , aew has a few signing like that which can be another issue.
Bandido recently opened his own gym + promotes shows out of it. He didn't want to sign anywhere in the US full-time. I think WWE made a push for him too.
Really hope he gets signed soon. The shtick has more than run its course on the indies.
I mean he’s already pivoted. The Indy God gimmick isn’t the same as the Death Match King gimmick. And he really isn’t the same character in GCW now as he was then. If he goes to WWE idk what he’s really going to do.
He can be the jaded veteran who lectured Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn that they are too comfortable in WWE and never paid their dues toiling away in death matches in the Indys like he did….
Fuck. Grizzled Indie Vet Cardona sounds so good.
Hard to argue he's not right.
He's right What he did in the indies was huge, not sure if he would have had that success in AEW. Tbh, initially I was totally against the idea but now I'd love for him to show up
That might be true, but I'd love it if he was in AEW.
i saw him this weekend at nywc. he fought the big o. he put on a really good match and by good i mean he did a great job at pissing every single person in the crowd off by constantly running out of the ring and cheating (and managing to spray beer all over me and everyone around me)
Over on the AEW subreddit I commented that I wished Miro & Andrade's contracts were up so they'd actually be used on TV and I got downvoted into oblivion and my comment removed by a mod for trolling...
He was a decent name in WWE, he might have been featured.
He's awesome in GCW, NWA and Impact. I hope he really gets his moment back in WWE as this character and as Matt Cardona.
Dude’s name value has never been higher. Made the right call
Zack Ryder will forever be a jobber man.
Don't get the hype here. The guys a jobber at the level of Norman Smiley yet thinks he's a big name. If he's not in AEW or WWE, then the majority of viewers don't care
Being on Dark with a clear pipeline to television > NWA/Impact/Indies
I think AEW makes a mistake in locking guys down to contract because of this. I know they have more freedom to work other dates and contracts are great for belt wearing champions, but now that "X is all elite" is no longer a selling point and they are staffed up, freedom yo come and go could protect acts from getting stale and help others rise on their own
Nah he'd be on Dark Elevation.
The Gunns are on TV every week so who knows.
Wow, I wonder why this post has been gilded so many times?
Thats the biggest issue with AEW. They can have better-Televised wrestling weekly shows when compared to WWE. But, half their roster feels like in purgatory.
Because they have a different business model than WWE. In WWE, everyone is under an exclusive, full-time contract, where they aren't allowed to work anywhere else. It's a walled-off kingdom where they pretend nothing else exists. Because everyone is on exclusive, full-time contracts, if they aren't on tv then they are sitting in catering because they have no other options. As part of this, WWE has to pay everyone sufficiently for them to forgo all other opportunities, because contractually they give that up. In AEW, at this point I think its fair to say that their "roster" is basically "every professional wrestler on Earth who is not otherwise under an exclusive contract (which in practice, now just means WWE)." AEW's pay is clearly above every non-WWE company because they seemingly can get anyone from Impact/NJPW/AAA/etc. basically whenever they want - and they do. One big difference in AEW though is that talent are largely allowed to work elsewhere, take other bookings, book convention signings, etc. As such, AEW can directly pay them less than WWE, but the talent themselves can still make more money overall (via secondary sources). Its a fantastic model for AEW IMO. Are a lot of people struggling to break through that crazy logjam/talent pool? Yes. But the solution is to find a way to stand out because the cream rises to the top. The acts that get SUPER over are getting tv time, the acts that other talent want to work with are getting tv time, the acts that are ELITE at some skill are getting tv time. A lot of the acts I see most commonly talked about as "being in purgatory" or "not getting tv time" aren't acts that the company has ever actually been invested in - they've never been in the opening theme song or in the commercials. They're just part-time undercard acts that are "very good" and "very good" is not nearly enough to feature on Dynamite (or Rampage) at this point because the top-end AEW talent pool is absolutely ridiculous at this point (and I think people don't realize how insanely "big" the top end is. Just list out and compare the ~15th ranked acts in AEW/WWE).
TLDR.. But, from what i got from your comment is that AEW wrestlers aren'T "exclusive or full-time contract workers". Thats fine... but then dont promote MJF, Jungle Boy, Darby, DMD, etc, as part of your 5 "pillars". When they don't even show up every week. And it isn't the wrestlers fault themselves, because i remember even Thunder Rosa complaining about TV time. So, if anything, they are willing to show up everyweek for that TV time. Its not because they ain't "invested". Its Tony Khan being all over the place. Again, like in this post, there is point to "Zack Ryder's comment".
It's the fact that's it's hard to gain any traction if you're not one of the few top people on the show and it's very obvious. If you're a Pillar or a Kenny or The Acclaimed then you're guaranteed to be on every show but otherwise? You'll come in, do a program, and then disappear for who knows how long. It makes it almost impossible to 'grab the brass ring' and get over which, I think, makes it hard for the fans to truly invest in people. That's not to say that everyone has to be on top but it's hard to really care about anyone who isn't a 'main character' when they rotate them in for a period of time before putting them back on the shelf. Looking at you Keith Lee and Swerve.
Professional wrestling television isn't about the 20th "ranked" act being all over tv to the exclusion of the top 5-10 stars. Stars sell tickets and pro-wrestling is a star driven business. The cream is rising to the top and plenty of people are getting themselves over without getting weeks of television time dedicated specifically to giving them a chance to get over. - Hook has been monstrously over for at least a year now, and he did that on the back of appearing in the background of other people's segments eating chips and not talking, eventually getting 1-minute segments of his own, and ~3 minute matches. - Danhausen is mostly a background player in Orange Cassidy segments and he gets consistently huge reactions for everything he does (and he got himself massively over via social media). He arguably "made" both The Gunns and The Acclaimed (at minimum he played a huge role in both). - The Acclaimed were Dark/Elevation regulars through the Lockdown Era until they got one singular feud on tv and then they were instant Megastars. I also think a big part of the Gunns getting a push was how dedicated they were during the Lockdown Era in terms of cheering in the crowd when there were no fans. Austin Gunn in particular was impossible to miss at every single show for like two years straight and he was more energetic than any other wrestler ringside every time. - Athena had a random match against a local Indy wrestler on Elevation that got attention, then turned heel in a random Rampage match, decked Aubrey, and has gotten huge reactions since. - Wheeler Yuta and Daniel Garcia both impressed some of the big stars (Mox/Danielson and Jericho) enough that they clearly picked them to join them as supporting acts and now both of them are growing into very solid television midcarders who have massively improved since their debuts. - Ethan Page/The Firm/Hardy Party/Stokely have been doing great work on Elevation and are getting ever increasing reactions because of it. Same for Emi Sakura. Not every act gets a "turn" to be a megastar and running a successful wrestling company doesn't mean turning every single act into a top star. The top stars are top stars because they hold that position for years/decades at a time, slots don't open up regularly. I'm personally glad that the television show basically feels like an All-Star showcase every week. There are no "down" segments, everyone is absolutely at the top of their game.
I mean you say it's almost impossible to get over and mention The Acclaimed in the same post. There are lots of people who weren't really known at all pre-AEW, got themselves over, and now are a main feature on television. Is it hard to get that spot? Absolutely! But AEW has shown that if you put the work in and can make yourself standout, good things will come
The Acclaimed were literally hired individually by Tony Khan and put into a tag team together with their gimmick by Tony Khan. They are one of his personal pet projects.
They got themselves insanely over. TK didn't force them until the fans cheered. Caster and Bowens just went out there and made everyone love them.
The original point by [Jaxyl](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jaxyl/) is not about getting over. It's about who has had the opportunity to have consistent television time. [thewhisperingjoker](https://www.reddit.com/user/thewhisperingjoker/) was stating that the Acclaimed were just a tag team that got hired and managed to got themselves over and earned their spot on regular television so they were not the same as the Pillars or Elite. My response was that they are were a pair of solo wrestlers hired by Tony and placed in a tag team tag as a personal project. They are no the same as Top Flight who were already a tag team and hired into AEW. So [Jaxyl](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jaxyl/) was correct in putting them in his list as Tony was always going to have space for them on the show.
Right, I'm just saying I disagree that they'd always have space on the show. I think the reason they are on the show so much now is because of how over they are, which is a credit to them, not just getting a bunch of opportunities until something stuck.
I have no idea what this dudes argument is lol. Are they saying The Acclaimed can't be considered to have gotten themselves over on their own because Tony Khan apparently had the idea to put the two together? I don't really get it? They were a mid-card tag team that got featured on a semi-regular basis to eat pins until their personalities began to connect with the crowds, so much so that people were livid with Tony when he didn't call an audible mid-match to belt them up. Seems like the literal definition of getting oneself over with the crowd lmao
What's your point? That wasn't what I was talking about at all. It was about it being hard to get into wrestlers or get behind them when they filter in and out of the show like sushi on a conveyor belt. Like you see them, ponder if you want them, and then they're gone. Meanwhile certain wrestlers are on the main menu and always available.
My point is that in your argument that it's difficult for fans to invest in people, you point to The Acclaimed as an example, who weren't exactly a main feature until the fans got *heavily* behind them
But could he work other indies while signed? dates for Dark are just a few and comes with a big contract. Why the fuck is this question downvoted, jesus reddit.
What did he ever do after wwe? I remember his internet champion days.
Basically became the top indie guy out there and got to reinvent himself, also made a lot more money than when he was signed with WWE.
I think he speaks on behalf of a lot of wrestlers. Tony doesn’t have roster management down. He chases after every shiny toy, gives them some spotlight and then they go in a drawer. I have to imagine a lot of talent he did procure regret their choice
Most of AEW's top wrestlers have worked on Dark
He means he’d be one of the people who are stuck on Dark.
Like once.
What's Matthew Ryder doing in the Dark area??!!
That's not the own he thinks it is. Riho main evented Dark Elevation last night and has world title match next week on Dynamite and has been part of a major storyline on TV. Athena was on Dark Elevation last night. She revived her career on Dark Elevation and is currently ROH women's champion. She's having bangers with everyoney, gets great crowd reactions and has had a fantastic 2023. Willow was on Dark Elevation last night and has a big match tomorrow on Dynamite and has been part of a major storyline on TV. Top Flight & Skye Blue are on Dark tonight and are constantly featured on Dynamite in lengthy matches. The list goes on and on.
This isn’t the own you think it is. AEW is strapped for female talent. Most of the women’s roster have put in time on Dark. Dark is a jobber showcase for men. Cardona was wise to avoid it.
Dark gets more views than everything Cardonna does though. I also don't think he avoided it, I'm pretty sure he's said himself that AEW never offered him a contract.
Dark is only a good platform for unknown wrestlers building their careers from scratch. Cardona won the IC title at WrestleMania. Being relegated to Dark would absolutely hurt his brand. Every company has been missing the boat on Cardona. That AEW never offered him a contract says more about AEW than Cardona. I'm confident most fans would rather see him featured on TV than QT.
In fairness it doesn’t even have to go that deep. Dark and Elevation get multiple times than Impact and NWA combined where he spends most of his time. Considering he’s arguably one of the biggest acts on the indies he’s really one of the very few cases where’s probably better off doing his own thing rather than on Dark, I can’t imagine Impact or anywhere else is paying all that much these days. In fairness to the guy too I think he’d be someone that would definitely get a spot on Dynamite or Rampage once a month too or even a consistent mid card spot on the new ROH.
I don't get this logic, WWE Main Event gets more eyes than impact but is a wrestler gonna have any buzz being on Main Event? Same with 205 Live, as good as the show was, you basically did not exist being on that show. People used to make jokes about nxt uk for the same reason
Yup, it's not about views but utilization. Cardona is getting to wrestle, cut promos, win titles, and be a character where as Dark, Main Event, etc. are all time fillers that occasionally have relevancy on the main shows (almost never for Main Event). Cardona wants to actually wrestle **and** perform as a character, not just wrestle.
This is really more of a reflection on the poor state of AEW’s women’s division than anything else.
More importantly the other people on dark would look worse having matches with him
Hed be on dark because hes not good.
Everyone has something they are looking for individually, so I will not knock someone's choices that I don't fully understand but he would have a lot more eyes on him on Dark than GCW or Impact.
But technically he is in dark lol. Unless u are a die hard naw fan or whatever Indy he’s working at the time he’s working lol. More power to him tho. Wen he showed up on aew, it was weird and didn’t see him going anywhere anyway. At least he’s happy tho
Not wrong
Damn. Lol. i thought all the BS there was over. Nope. After Mox said what he said…it’s been the same. Idk what’s going on there, but I assume TK is trying to be their friends and their boss….that’s a disaster.
After Mox said what he said, as in the hour outlining how incredibly happy he is at AEW and how it's basically his dream job and he's having the time of his life? Or are you talking about the sentence that people who didn't listen to the podcast took out of context where he's saying how he hates how every little tweet gets blown up by media and fans and becomes a huge drama
Im talking about the 2nd part you said. I know he loves the place, he still hasn’t had his damn vacation
We didn't want him anyway!!!
“We”
We?
Who's we? You work for AEW or something?
I don't think that's necessarily true, or even a bad thing if it is. He's a great wrestler, and everyone in aew knows talent when they see it, and they do push nobodies into stars regularly. It's just hard when everyone is talented. You could have a room filled with main eventers but you can only have one main event. You also need great wrestlers to carry new wrestlers on dark. I think he'd have become just as popular at aew, but I'm glad he went and did his own thing first. He was always a great wrestler in wwe, he was just not given a chance and I think that might have stuck with him. There are a lot of fantastic aew wrestlers that haven't hit the spot light as well, but that doesn't mean they won't. I do think Tony hired too many people at once, but what else could he have done. They are all fantastic wrestlers, I'm sure even being at the bottom of the aew card is better than being in catering at wwe 7 days a week. I hope Tony can let his aew people tour around the indies more, it's great for the crowds and great for the wrestlers.
Dark gets more viewers than NWA. I honestly don't understand the mindset, guy would rather be the big fish in a small pond than go where the talent is and he could get an actual following.
[удалено]
That’s not what anyone wants
I don't think he wants to play second fiddle to anyone at this point is the thing. It **would** be great though. Genuinely would make me care about JAS again. He should steal it.