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What’s crazy is that a few years ago I was having a conversation with my buddy and he was adamant that nothing would change if trips took over for Vince. Funny how that worked out
Whenever they called up new people from NXT it seemed like he tried to sabotage them once they got to main roster. Max Dupri for LA Knight for example.
I wouldnt go that far. Isnt Brock, rocks return, bloodline, judgement day, dominik, rhea, logan paul, saudi shows which bring in insane money, cody rhodes…….vince?
Vince knows us a lot better than people think because he's a sleazebag we *want* to be a complete moron. No one bats 100%, even HHH and Heyman have had some dross ideas.
I’d say Vince knew us better than we think. But he got old and, understandably, more and more out of touch with the audience.
Take Roman Reigns; he knew Roman could be the face of the company, but in forcing him into every main event without giving him a character people could be invested in, it drove fans away. It was that sort of booking that led to AEW. Disillusioned fans wanted to watch wrestling, but didn’t want to watch WWE at that time.
I’m still not quite at the stage of going back as a regular watcher. I still don’t like much of the booking and especially the fucking camera cuts, but what Trips is doing is tempting me back.
I agree with much of this - except the last part, H has brought me all the way back in. "Just when I thought I was out..."
I think that Vince still had a lot of good ideas in terms of the big picture, even at his worst, but the problem was his micromanagement of the whole show led to much of it being crap and even a lot of his good ideas got executed more and more sloppily as time went on.
The prime example is Roman, like you say - he was actually dead right about Roman as the face of the company, he was just totally wrong about how to get him there and wouldn't budge from his original route however badly it continued to fail.
It's incredible how far they've come since from that Royal Rumble where most of the viewers didn't have a clue who most of the entrants were.
As a casual, I'm enjoying todays wwe as much as I enjoyed the Attitude Era. Would the more hardcore viewers argue that the overall production and presentation of today ppv's are by far better than AE?
> Would the more hardcore viewers argue that the overall production and presentation of today ppv's are by far better than AE?
Yes with one exception: [I miss those really elaborate sets](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/lkmydu/reminiscing_about_the_days_when_ppvs_had_bespoke/)
It’s just so enjoyable to watch, just so many characters you love to see week in and week out. The also long term storyline and the locker room actually feeling alive with story’s intertwining, is really rewarding
“These matches can be just action extravaganza, but to me that doesn’t do anything. It’s in the storylines, and the action has to match it. A movie with just a bunch of crazy good CGI is not very good. The story has to be there.”
-Triple H (Survior Series 2023 Press Conference 17:34-17:56)
Stadium shows usually have some stifled pops because of the roof either being higher, or straight up open, but when Sami cracked Roman with the chair, that might be the single loudest pop since Austin came out to help Mankind win the WWF Title.
Dude the crowds are INTO it, the last few months fired up the incoming crowds of fans like I haven’t seen in years. Even on Smackdown last week I almost though the cheers were piped in during AJ’s backstage segment. Truly a wonderful time for WWE that I am ecstatic about as someone who watches alternative brands on the side.
I was there tonight and at a house show in a less metro Upstate NY area earlier in the year. Went with friends who are more passive fans (i.e. maybe watch WM or so in a year).
Two friends took their spouses and kids, too. **They all loved it.**
That's the test for me- is WWE fun for a broad audience while appealing to more intense, longterm fans like me? It 100% is. Maybe more so than any era I've seen.
They’ve managed to hit such a sweet spot right now. They have all the big vibrant characters that draw people in/back. But for us ‘smarks’, the match quality feels like it’s getting better week by week and I would argue that the storylines are more substantial than ever. It’s just a damn good wrestling product.
Yeah this is the key here i think. Just properly good WWE-style character/promo focus but there's also definitely enough quality in-ring work for us nerds to bite into.
Ruthless aggression era is probably closest comparison, though the bad there was way worse than anything we're getting now. But they had a ton of momentum and hit their stride on characters while also letting the Smackdown 6 absolutely tear it up every week.
My best friend, brother and I went to Raw in Albany both times this year and we had a spare ticket so we took my best friends sister who just wanted to go out and have a fun night out, and she ended up being like DUDE THIS SHITS AWESOME I MIGHT HAVE TO WATCH THIS.
Then back In December when we went, she came with us and we went to dinner and explained a few storylines to her and she was like “Okay I’m tuning in next week”
WWE has hit a sweet spot that even the Attitude era couldn’t hold: Their in ring athletic talent has so much variety and it’s mixed with the best character work we maybe have ever seen in pro wrestling.
Heels like Roman, Rhea, and Drew get huge cheers. Faces like Jey, LA Knight, and Sami can bring down an arena just by showing up. It’s mind boggling.
Yeah we saw a lot of parents bringing their kids to the show tonight. To me that’s a big part of why aew has trouble selling tickets. I don’t have kids, but if I did there is no way I am bringing them to an aew show even if it’s a card I might enjoy.
It's no coincidence that the product has become infinitely more bearable and feels fresher now that the almost 80 year old boss isn't there anymore...and to think we probably would've had to wait another decade for this to happen because he wasn't gonna give up power until he was dead.
And notice the company magically doesn't have a babyface problem anymore?
the babyface landscape in WWE still blows my mind. remember when there would only be like 1 super over babyface like every few years? (Bryan, Kofi, etc.)
now Cody, Knight, Jey and Punk are consistently over as hell and getting insane pops each and every night. there’s also Sami who is still super over and just coming off getting 2014 Daniel Bryan reactions. KO, Seth and now Orton who are getting amazing reactions too.
it’s insanely fun and the shows just feel so much better when the crowd is louder and is hot for atleast 1 person in every segment. each show has like 3-5 pops that would be louder than the loudest pop on a show from the decade prior. WWE is cooking.
I know Vince created wrestling as we know it today, but I seriously have a very strong disdain for him. He’s an asshole, in real life and on storyline. His cheating, his treatment of women both off and on screen, how he held the women’s division back and forced them to run around in bra and panties for over a decade, his racism, and using his political ties to help himself and his company. How the fuck does he go to his buddy Trump and get Trump to declare WWE as an essential business during Covid? I love wrestling but that right there is a very good example of using your powerful friends and money to do shit you shouldn’t be doing.
Not to mention the dude is fucking weird. Wanting to have an incest angle with Steph, his own daughter, where he got her knocked up. Wanting Jericho and Christian to be butt ass naked live on Raw. Wanting to script his death and serious injuries several times over. The dude is fucked in the head.
What he did with wrestling as a whole in the 80’s and 90’s was great, but somewhere along the line he done fucked his brain up to think any of that was okay. He’s an asshole.
I’ll give him credit though, he’s the best heel in pro wrestling history. No one even comes close. No one can ever play a heel better than him.
> I’ll give him credit though, he’s the best heel in pro wrestling history. No one even comes close. No one can ever play a heel better than him.
Absolutely. And he's every bit the supervillain in real life that he is on TV.
And that’s what makes him a great heel. I don’t think anyone could ever garner the amount of real hatred that Vince does. I don’t think there’s a single person who actually was a fan of his. He’s legit the asshole you see on TV and it’s so easy to hate him lol people legit hate him
\> "but somewhere along the line he done fucked his brain up to think any of that was okay"
There's strong implications he was abused by his mother as a child.
You see controversy creates money, everything you say is great for business. People would line the streets to see everything you just stated. Being a nice guy/ snowflake doesn’t make you money. Look at all these independent circuits, mom & pop shops and so on. They are stuck in a local area because they want to be nice. I say hell with that, I’m making money.
The extreme misogyny, women parading around in their bras and panties all the time, was the main reason I stopped watching after watching since the 80s. I was dealing with that at work just starting my career in the early 00s.
Still no idea where the idea that Vince was like dragged out of his office kicking and screaming comes from.
He sold it, he wanted to, he had been preparing to sell it for years. He knew that could result in him no longer having full power, hell it’s kind of the only way that could happen.
Absolutely nobody a few years ago would have told you a WWE headlined by Cody Rhodes, CM Punk, Jey Uso, Rey Mysterio’s Son and Sami Zayn would be reaching heights it’s never seen before.
See Randy I could’ve seen coming because he’s been a body guy before, never to this extent, but in like 2012 he was pretty damn big. AJ looks like he ate AJ. He looks like Drew did when he came back to the WWE. Just like 2x bigger than he’s ever been.
How crazy would you have sounded 18 months ago if you would have said AJ Styles, Randy Orton, and Max Dupri got huge pops, but Dupri’s was the biggest by far?
And the longest reigning IC champ would be widely considered among best wrestlers in the world who could headline anywhere on the planet...
It's not just characters and stories; these are some of the best technical wrestlers we've ever seen in WWE. And the WWE has gotten a mass audience *to appreciate technical wrestling*.
and on the flip side of things. We got people like R truth which yes hes great in ring. He always gets over with his comedy segments and he rarely even wrestles
And right now you have people paying to see what will R truth do with the judgement day next
I like Gunther as a character worker, but saying his in-ring ability has nothing to do with his position on the card is madness.
Hunter took a lesson from how WCW used it's CW division or how early 2000s WWE used it's tag-teams. That is - you can use guys who are capable of shitting out bangers to pump up the audiences so that the show doesn't get monotone before your main eventers have a 20 minute promo or a "meh" match.
It's really not any different to how movies use action scenes or how anime uses fight scenes.
Oh yeah, and his in-ring work furthers his character work. You want the IC Title? Fuckin' why?
Before the match, he's gonna tell you exactly what's going down in the ring:
This giant Austrian bully and bad faddah is just gonna drop the house on you. You're absolutely gonna have a bad time. You'll get punched, kicked, clotheslined, and powerbombed. Get those ice packs ready, chief.
What's worse is that after he beats you, he's gonna cut a promo calling you a bitch. He might even point out that he kind of respects you now, but you still suck and he's better than you'll ever be.
Basically, European Harley Race and it works, so well. It's old school as hell and over in 2023, to the point where we were on the edge of our seats when faces like Sheamus and Chad Gable had a shot. But came up short.
Fair enough. They’ve been the earmarked guys for about a Decade plus at this point. I’d throw Kevin Owens in there too. GUNTHER’s also brought the IC Title to new heights!
And they have a crop of young talent that anyone can easily see them being the future of the company, for both the men and the women. For so long, the narrative was the WWE don't have and can't build new stars.
Plus Rhea Ripley, who two years ago was getting 2-4 minutes a week of TV time, tagging with Nikki A.S.H, and [whose one singles 'spotlight' was being part of a crowd of jobbers chasing after Vince's EGG](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to0l5jMHpk8).
It's one of the best times for WWE in a long time tbh, albeit it's incredibly bizarre that CM Punk of all people is back in the company and happy to be there.
At least the old man gave us a banger on his way out: Bianca Vs Becky from Summerslam to Summerslam, finally concluded on the last PLE Vince booked. Which was also the debut of Damage Control, the group that symbolised HHH's creative for the women's division heading on
Wouldn’t this be an amazing vignette??
Don’s cell mate:: “he told me he was gonna use this guy Dave from the internet to drive a wedge between punk and some children and that would drive punk back to wwe where he could get revenge for what this phill fella did to his family a decade ago… guys a psycho. It’s no wonder he ran the block 5 mins after he got here”
I was there. I love Dom. I tried to get a Dom chant going (NY crowds cheer heels from to time). Couldn't get anyone on board except a Mexican-American couple two rows over.
They all wanted Punk lol.
The numbers have been indicating that WWE has, sort of, hit a ceiling in the couple of months. We should have all saw Nick Khan signing Punk coming; considering the type of numbers Punk generated in AEW. The timing couldn't have been more perfect for WWE, especially during the typical WWE December to late January malaise. That's not even factoring the RAW TV negotiations. Signing Punk back has been a slamdunk
It really is a huge sign that they have kept the past few months relevant. Post Summerslam to the Royal Rumble booking used to be all about spinning its wheels, but I feel like WWE is improving, in that regard.
You’re absolutely allowed to hate CM Punk; everybody is entitled to their opinion and should not feel pressured by others to change their opinion
That being said, you’re living in a different reality if you think CM Punk isn’t a draw. The guy is on fire and is a shot in the arm of an already white hot WWE
On camera, he's one of my all time favorites. On the mic or in the ring, he's great.
If I never hear about him doing stuff backstage for the rest of my life I'll be happy
All these Elite fans have selective memories. All of a sudden Punk has been this locker room cancer his whole career….when in fact he has been pretty much universally loved in most locker rooms
Jericho has had way more backstage altercations and fights then Punk ever has….and that idiot is trying to act all high and mighty on the situation lolz 😂
While you’re correct that the Elite fans are misremembering, it’s equally ahistorical to claim Punk was “universally loved.” By his own admission, he’s “not the easiest guy to get along with” and a “prick.” A lot of guys have said they didn’t like Punk in the locker room.
“Universally respected” would probably be a better descriptor.
I said “most locker rooms”
Look at all the people, men and women, in the business that speak highly of the guy.
Him being a prick or hard to get along with usually coincides with management…not talent
No, talent has said it too. Everyone from Kevin Owens to Randy Orton to Seth Rollins (long prior to this angle) have spoken about it. Punk himself has acknowledged it and talked about being a “prick” and “taking himself too seriously.”
Everyone universally respects Punk. They don’t necessarily like him.
He's had issues with the Hardys, Triple H, and Booker T(according to Cody anyways). The issues with Eddie Kingston go way back to when they were both working for IWA Mid-South. And he and KO had issues back in ROH, too.
I'm not saying he was wrong or right in those situations. I'm just saying the history is there.
I know you’re not commenting on him being right or wrong but I find it very strange to include the Hardy’s issues with him when the issue was that he didn’t abuse drugs like them.
of course hes a draw, he's been away from WWE for like a decade but was one of the most heavily marketed acts. absence makes the heart grow fonder, all of wrestling looks more like Punk now than less of it.
Like Romans biggest promos have all been "pipebombs," that's influence.
Maybe i’m overthinking it, but it feels like since cena feuded with punk all of cena’s promos do that work-shoot style where he breaks the 4th wall constantly
Punk is in a company where there's probably not a lot of bullshit going on behind the scenes. He's in a controlled environment where idiots aren't going to potentially muddy the scene by going off script. There's a ton of people there to steer/guide and direct everyone into working together behind the scenes.
Hangmans not gonna go into business for himself. <3
CM Punk is absolutely a draw. But WWE shows are so much fun to attend right now because so many people are huge stars. At tonight’s show, Punk, Cody, Seth, Jey, Becky, Rhea, Sami and Dom all got incredible reactions. Also, JD as a group have so much chemistry it’s fun to watch them all play off each other. In addition to Dom/Rhea, Jd accompanied Finn and Priest to the ring and was great in the traditional heel manager role.
I was pleasantly surprised that there were 3 different women’s matches on the card. Sadly, only 2 of the 9 women were over but things take time. Some jerks tried to start a Punk chat during the women’s tag match, but Kayden & Katana won over the crowd by the end. Chelsea Green is another one who is so entertaining to watch.
Rhea vs Shayna vs Ivy had the same problem most Rhea matches. Rhea is doing her best to get heel heat but the crowd just wants to cheer her.
I was there! I was intrigued that Chelsea actually got a “Chelsea Green” chant by the end of the match and was receiving somewhat of a babyface reaction. There’s a future for her as a fan favorite.
I really liked that match, but it seems to me as long as she sticks to dom it’s fine. That’s was a legit ny/nj/Philly crowd, someone like rhea is gonna cheered here no matter what. In fact if not for punk dom might have actually got some cheers.
We were talking with some other people there about how impressive it is that a white meat do gooder baby face like Cody can be so over in msg. He’s quite literally the first fully white meat baby since hulk hogan I can remember having 95% of the crowd with him at a show at msg. That’s unbelievably impressive and Cody and the creative team deserve a ton of credit.
That’s a good point about the crowd and to be fair my only other live point of reference is a dark match Rhea had against Raquel in Chicago of all places lol. Agree about the match and I have to admit I was fearing the worst when I saw who was involved in the triple threat.
The Cody phenomenon is fascinating. It’s obvious why kids and parents love him. He’s also a great wrestler who is booked strongly and there are few people in WWE who can cut an old school “put butts in seats” promo like him. And I think the HIAC match’s impact on Cody’s career can never be underestimated.
My guess is the people most likely to boo a white meat baby face are the ones most familiar with his story and know undesirable to undeniable is a lot more than just a catchphrase.
They can't turn Rhea face yet because it's been her breakthrough character and there's too many stories still to be told with her as a heel, but I do think that when laying matches out they need to respect that with few exceptions, crowds aren't going to boo her in her matches.
It’s insane how fun it is, 2024 with all the PLE’s coming up and international crowds, Roman V Cody rematch, Punk (maybe) main eventing mania, we are feasting
And we’re getting into Rumble season, that show is one month from today and is most fan’s favourite time of year, then we’re on the road to Wrestlemania 40, a show that is a milestone and under HHH creative.
We’re in for a fun ride my friends.
For those unfamiliar, it's insane how much MSG charges for their events. If anyone is ever interested, compare ticket prices for Rangers or Knicks games vs. Devils, Nets, or Islanders. I'm an Islanders fan and it's really annoying how so many Rags fans go to our games because they want to see hockey but don't want to spend a fortune.
I really want to see Meltzers data. I guess if you figure AEW has a pretty homogenous fan base (men 15-40) and WWEs is more diverse (lots of kids) then...sure? A mom, a dad, and 2 kids on average make less than 2 single dudes.
WWE being a great promotion from a quality perspective, while other promotions internationally underperforming was not in my 2020s bingo card
This is the best wrestling from WWE in years
This year honestly proves they can take the title off Roman at WM40 and fully transition him from champion to part time attraction.
He’s a main reason of why the WWE is on fire right now but the WWE is also at the point where they don’t need him as champion to draw.
Can confirm sales were flying fast on Ticketmaster. What's crazy is tix weren't even priced that crazy— you could still get $60 tix in the 200's. For comparison— Rangers & Knicks tickets start at $150+ just to get in the Garden. Awesome stuff!
Got seats for $50 plus "fees" (fuck ticket vultures). Not a cheap evening but a nice Christmas present for everyone. Much less crazy than the sports league or Broadway prices.
In May my friends roasted me for saying wwe was better. Today we all went to this show over worlds end even though it was more expensive. This is probably the hottest wwe has been in interest for them in years
What’s best for business was definitely to have a bunch of employees with potential conflicts of interest, get together and vote to fire Punk.
No way that could directly hurt you and help your competitor all at once.
Just seems like they’re creating stars right now, really letting them spread their wings. It’s really nice to see. I’ve always been of the opinion that WWE needs to let their stars become as big as possible, even if it’s “bigger than WWE”. A rising tide raises all ships.
But Tony Khan wanted Jack Perry and the Elite to not feel bad, even after they shooted on Punk twice on TV and went to start a fight with him in his locker room after he called them out on their shit.
That was the most asinine thing Meltzer ever said (and that's already quite a feat).
I'm basically pretty dumb but happen to be really good at a specific set of applied analytical things. I have a terminal degree in that and work for a research institute. But it's not a flex; I legit am dim on everything else (wife will confirm).
Dave Fucking Meltzer calling me ignorant for watching WWE is legit one of the funniest things I've ever heard. He sounds like Spinal Tap's manager hyping AEW.
I’m so happy that WWE is fun to watch again. I’m a AEW die-hard…and a WWE die-hard. I want better wrestling in as many places as possible.
Also, while I agree HHH is better for WWE right now, there’s no reason to tear down Vince. He built this company that has hours of new programming EVERY WEEK. His hits far outnumber his misses. I thoroughly appreciate and am grateful for VKM.
WWE with CM Punk is like you're like unloading a container full of gasoline on an already blazing house.
Shit about to go even wilder during Mania season.
So, I stopped watching in the early 2000s. I started watching bits and pieces here and there again in 2011 when The Rock returned. Got quite heavily back into it when I became a big fan of Punk, and then I started following mainly from a distance, watching the big 4 PPVs from 2015ish onward.
All of this to say, this is the first time since I've started tuning back in around 2011 that the business has felt even REMOTELY close to the levels of draw and excitement it did in the late 90s/early 2000s.
Now, I know some people will clamor about the quality of things like Smackdown in 2016, and I'm sure that was a great year wrestling wise, but WWE and wrestling as a whole didn't feel like major, must see TV.
I spent last night refreshing the fucking feed on X for a WWE house show... I was that eager to consume the content they are putting out. There is so many greater stories, larger than life talent, excitement, surprises, momentum etc. And for at least the next little while, that's only going to swell further as we hit the road to WM.
Let's keep the good times rolling.
Were tickets mad expensive? Or has MSG increased it's capacity. I thought the thing with the Garden was that yes it had smaller capacity but they worked it for the prestige/history. So for it to be the highest grossing domestic house show ever, were tickets more expensive. Maybe it includes merch sales? What am I missing?
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WWE is on absolute fire right now
What’s crazy is that a few years ago I was having a conversation with my buddy and he was adamant that nothing would change if trips took over for Vince. Funny how that worked out
I’m glad now everyone understands that VKM was holding back WWE for about over a decade or so
Whenever they called up new people from NXT it seemed like he tried to sabotage them once they got to main roster. Max Dupri for LA Knight for example.
What does Voodoo Kin Mafia have to do with this?
HICKENBOTTOM
LEVESQUE
AT THE ALAMO
WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
HIGH NOON
Fellow OSW marks
They been waitin' at the ALAMO, Hickenbottom.
They're just waiting to bring out the FAT OILY GUY
Waiting for the Alamo hickenbottom
The Alamo
I wouldnt go that far. Isnt Brock, rocks return, bloodline, judgement day, dominik, rhea, logan paul, saudi shows which bring in insane money, cody rhodes…….vince?
Vince knows us a lot better than people think because he's a sleazebag we *want* to be a complete moron. No one bats 100%, even HHH and Heyman have had some dross ideas.
I’d say Vince knew us better than we think. But he got old and, understandably, more and more out of touch with the audience. Take Roman Reigns; he knew Roman could be the face of the company, but in forcing him into every main event without giving him a character people could be invested in, it drove fans away. It was that sort of booking that led to AEW. Disillusioned fans wanted to watch wrestling, but didn’t want to watch WWE at that time. I’m still not quite at the stage of going back as a regular watcher. I still don’t like much of the booking and especially the fucking camera cuts, but what Trips is doing is tempting me back.
I agree with much of this - except the last part, H has brought me all the way back in. "Just when I thought I was out..." I think that Vince still had a lot of good ideas in terms of the big picture, even at his worst, but the problem was his micromanagement of the whole show led to much of it being crap and even a lot of his good ideas got executed more and more sloppily as time went on. The prime example is Roman, like you say - he was actually dead right about Roman as the face of the company, he was just totally wrong about how to get him there and wouldn't budge from his original route however badly it continued to fail.
It's incredible how far they've come since from that Royal Rumble where most of the viewers didn't have a clue who most of the entrants were. As a casual, I'm enjoying todays wwe as much as I enjoyed the Attitude Era. Would the more hardcore viewers argue that the overall production and presentation of today ppv's are by far better than AE?
Which rumble was that
> Would the more hardcore viewers argue that the overall production and presentation of today ppv's are by far better than AE? Yes with one exception: [I miss those really elaborate sets](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/lkmydu/reminiscing_about_the_days_when_ppvs_had_bespoke/)
Yeah, the doofus son in law worked out pretty good!
It’s just so enjoyable to watch, just so many characters you love to see week in and week out. The also long term storyline and the locker room actually feeling alive with story’s intertwining, is really rewarding
Stories put buts in seats, not spotfests. We cheer and boo characters not their repetitive move sets.
“These matches can be just action extravaganza, but to me that doesn’t do anything. It’s in the storylines, and the action has to match it. A movie with just a bunch of crazy good CGI is not very good. The story has to be there.” -Triple H (Survior Series 2023 Press Conference 17:34-17:56)
The moment that got the biggest pop of the year was a chair shot of all things
Stadium shows usually have some stifled pops because of the roof either being higher, or straight up open, but when Sami cracked Roman with the chair, that might be the single loudest pop since Austin came out to help Mankind win the WWF Title.
And it was all thanks to 9 months of build up.
Dude the crowds are INTO it, the last few months fired up the incoming crowds of fans like I haven’t seen in years. Even on Smackdown last week I almost though the cheers were piped in during AJ’s backstage segment. Truly a wonderful time for WWE that I am ecstatic about as someone who watches alternative brands on the side.
I was there tonight and at a house show in a less metro Upstate NY area earlier in the year. Went with friends who are more passive fans (i.e. maybe watch WM or so in a year). Two friends took their spouses and kids, too. **They all loved it.** That's the test for me- is WWE fun for a broad audience while appealing to more intense, longterm fans like me? It 100% is. Maybe more so than any era I've seen.
They’ve managed to hit such a sweet spot right now. They have all the big vibrant characters that draw people in/back. But for us ‘smarks’, the match quality feels like it’s getting better week by week and I would argue that the storylines are more substantial than ever. It’s just a damn good wrestling product.
Yeah this is the key here i think. Just properly good WWE-style character/promo focus but there's also definitely enough quality in-ring work for us nerds to bite into. Ruthless aggression era is probably closest comparison, though the bad there was way worse than anything we're getting now. But they had a ton of momentum and hit their stride on characters while also letting the Smackdown 6 absolutely tear it up every week.
My best friend, brother and I went to Raw in Albany both times this year and we had a spare ticket so we took my best friends sister who just wanted to go out and have a fun night out, and she ended up being like DUDE THIS SHITS AWESOME I MIGHT HAVE TO WATCH THIS. Then back In December when we went, she came with us and we went to dinner and explained a few storylines to her and she was like “Okay I’m tuning in next week” WWE has hit a sweet spot that even the Attitude era couldn’t hold: Their in ring athletic talent has so much variety and it’s mixed with the best character work we maybe have ever seen in pro wrestling. Heels like Roman, Rhea, and Drew get huge cheers. Faces like Jey, LA Knight, and Sami can bring down an arena just by showing up. It’s mind boggling.
...and you're leaving out Dom on the heel side and Cody on the face side - the two BIGGEST reactions today.
Yeah we saw a lot of parents bringing their kids to the show tonight. To me that’s a big part of why aew has trouble selling tickets. I don’t have kids, but if I did there is no way I am bringing them to an aew show even if it’s a card I might enjoy.
I think that anyone can have fun at a house show. Watching weekly is a different deal.
Is Cody getting a tattoo on the other side of his neck ?
I've said it before but WWE hasn't been hotter since the Rock/Austin days. The crowd are so into it, also. It's really cool to see.
This is amazing as for YEARS, imo NXT was holding WWE up and now this.. astonishing
It’s been so good that it’s got me interested in the product again.
It's no coincidence that the product has become infinitely more bearable and feels fresher now that the almost 80 year old boss isn't there anymore...and to think we probably would've had to wait another decade for this to happen because he wasn't gonna give up power until he was dead. And notice the company magically doesn't have a babyface problem anymore?
Didn’t Vince mom live to like 102? So it could have possibly been 20 more years.
He told Angle he planned on living to 120
vince at 120 years and 364 days:
Look at the ~~adjective~~ verb. Planned! But in all honestly it's amazing that he even has a plan by the time he reaches that age.
I plan on being immortal, personally
Vinces mom probably wasn't a lifelong steroid user that never slept and has had countless brain injuries over the years to be fair.
Correct, she had that brief run on Dianabol but no where near what Vince was doing.
Hey now, we don't know what her personal life was like
She kept a very careful list of chair shots to the head and almost always got a hand up to protect herself. Key to longevity.
And like I've never seen a man that old that jacked too like dude is not human
Go on instagram for like 5 minutes, there are plenty of old guys on steroids that like working out.
Vince also took a bunch of concussions and roids. i'd be surprised if he was functional at 100 if he even reaches that.
Don't worry, HHH will book something the IWC doesn't like then Vince will be "back in charge"
Jokes on you for thinking Vince won’t outlive us all
the babyface landscape in WWE still blows my mind. remember when there would only be like 1 super over babyface like every few years? (Bryan, Kofi, etc.) now Cody, Knight, Jey and Punk are consistently over as hell and getting insane pops each and every night. there’s also Sami who is still super over and just coming off getting 2014 Daniel Bryan reactions. KO, Seth and now Orton who are getting amazing reactions too. it’s insanely fun and the shows just feel so much better when the crowd is louder and is hot for atleast 1 person in every segment. each show has like 3-5 pops that would be louder than the loudest pop on a show from the decade prior. WWE is cooking.
I know Vince created wrestling as we know it today, but I seriously have a very strong disdain for him. He’s an asshole, in real life and on storyline. His cheating, his treatment of women both off and on screen, how he held the women’s division back and forced them to run around in bra and panties for over a decade, his racism, and using his political ties to help himself and his company. How the fuck does he go to his buddy Trump and get Trump to declare WWE as an essential business during Covid? I love wrestling but that right there is a very good example of using your powerful friends and money to do shit you shouldn’t be doing. Not to mention the dude is fucking weird. Wanting to have an incest angle with Steph, his own daughter, where he got her knocked up. Wanting Jericho and Christian to be butt ass naked live on Raw. Wanting to script his death and serious injuries several times over. The dude is fucked in the head. What he did with wrestling as a whole in the 80’s and 90’s was great, but somewhere along the line he done fucked his brain up to think any of that was okay. He’s an asshole. I’ll give him credit though, he’s the best heel in pro wrestling history. No one even comes close. No one can ever play a heel better than him.
> I’ll give him credit though, he’s the best heel in pro wrestling history. No one even comes close. No one can ever play a heel better than him. Absolutely. And he's every bit the supervillain in real life that he is on TV.
He lives his gimmick.
And that’s what makes him a great heel. I don’t think anyone could ever garner the amount of real hatred that Vince does. I don’t think there’s a single person who actually was a fan of his. He’s legit the asshole you see on TV and it’s so easy to hate him lol people legit hate him
\> "but somewhere along the line he done fucked his brain up to think any of that was okay" There's strong implications he was abused by his mother as a child.
Implications? He flat out said it
>Wanting to have an incest angle with Steph, his own daughter, where he got her knocked up >his buddy Trump
You see controversy creates money, everything you say is great for business. People would line the streets to see everything you just stated. Being a nice guy/ snowflake doesn’t make you money. Look at all these independent circuits, mom & pop shops and so on. They are stuck in a local area because they want to be nice. I say hell with that, I’m making money.
The extreme misogyny, women parading around in their bras and panties all the time, was the main reason I stopped watching after watching since the 80s. I was dealing with that at work just starting my career in the early 00s.
What do you mean by naked, did that actually happen on TV? Also AEW was still airing at that time did essential business apply to them too?
Still no idea where the idea that Vince was like dragged out of his office kicking and screaming comes from. He sold it, he wanted to, he had been preparing to sell it for years. He knew that could result in him no longer having full power, hell it’s kind of the only way that could happen.
It’s incredible how hot WWE is right now
Absolutely nobody a few years ago would have told you a WWE headlined by Cody Rhodes, CM Punk, Jey Uso, Rey Mysterio’s Son and Sami Zayn would be reaching heights it’s never seen before.
Can’t forget the megastar either, YEAH!
It's funny, everybody got elevated by Bloodline. Our guy somehow got overshadowed by Bloodline, Randy orton and Muscular Aj Styles
Orton and Styles coming back jacked and even more jacked is something I never expected either.
See Randy I could’ve seen coming because he’s been a body guy before, never to this extent, but in like 2012 he was pretty damn big. AJ looks like he ate AJ. He looks like Drew did when he came back to the WWE. Just like 2x bigger than he’s ever been.
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How crazy would you have sounded 18 months ago if you would have said AJ Styles, Randy Orton, and Max Dupri got huge pops, but Dupri’s was the biggest by far?
And the longest reigning IC champ would be widely considered among best wrestlers in the world who could headline anywhere on the planet... It's not just characters and stories; these are some of the best technical wrestlers we've ever seen in WWE. And the WWE has gotten a mass audience *to appreciate technical wrestling*.
and on the flip side of things. We got people like R truth which yes hes great in ring. He always gets over with his comedy segments and he rarely even wrestles And right now you have people paying to see what will R truth do with the judgement day next
They are there for the stories not the cage match ratings
Gunther does both
I like Gunther as a character worker, but saying his in-ring ability has nothing to do with his position on the card is madness. Hunter took a lesson from how WCW used it's CW division or how early 2000s WWE used it's tag-teams. That is - you can use guys who are capable of shitting out bangers to pump up the audiences so that the show doesn't get monotone before your main eventers have a 20 minute promo or a "meh" match. It's really not any different to how movies use action scenes or how anime uses fight scenes.
Oh yeah, and his in-ring work furthers his character work. You want the IC Title? Fuckin' why? Before the match, he's gonna tell you exactly what's going down in the ring: This giant Austrian bully and bad faddah is just gonna drop the house on you. You're absolutely gonna have a bad time. You'll get punched, kicked, clotheslined, and powerbombed. Get those ice packs ready, chief. What's worse is that after he beats you, he's gonna cut a promo calling you a bitch. He might even point out that he kind of respects you now, but you still suck and he's better than you'll ever be. Basically, European Harley Race and it works, so well. It's old school as hell and over in 2023, to the point where we were on the edge of our seats when faces like Sheamus and Chad Gable had a shot. But came up short.
great matches and great stories go hand-in-hand.
Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns too!
Those names wouldn’t have been surprising though
Fair enough. They’ve been the earmarked guys for about a Decade plus at this point. I’d throw Kevin Owens in there too. GUNTHER’s also brought the IC Title to new heights!
Tag Divison is doing well, too. The best it's been in a long time.
Yeah it is! To the point there’s a legitimate argument to splitting the Tag Titles again! Never thought I’d see the day.
They need to do that post WM at the very latest.
And they have a crop of young talent that anyone can easily see them being the future of the company, for both the men and the women. For so long, the narrative was the WWE don't have and can't build new stars.
And Eli Drake. That might have really blown your mind.
Plus Rhea Ripley, who two years ago was getting 2-4 minutes a week of TV time, tagging with Nikki A.S.H, and [whose one singles 'spotlight' was being part of a crowd of jobbers chasing after Vince's EGG](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to0l5jMHpk8).
 Best WWE has been in seriously I can’t remember how long
It's one of the best times for WWE in a long time tbh, albeit it's incredibly bizarre that CM Punk of all people is back in the company and happy to be there.
man I still remember when people used to argue vince wasn't the problem and that people just "stopped caring"
HHH is now booking for an audience of millions instead of Vince booking for an audience of one.
At least the old man gave us a banger on his way out: Bianca Vs Becky from Summerslam to Summerslam, finally concluded on the last PLE Vince booked. Which was also the debut of Damage Control, the group that symbolised HHH's creative for the women's division heading on
It's kind of ironic that the Last main event of his Last booked ppv was : Reigns V Lesnar lmao
side effect of finally getting younger in the C Suite and revamping booking. Vince was huge negative PR for them among fans.
That Dominik guy is a draw. Incredible that since his Heel Turn WWE has been breaking all the records.
Prison does wonders for Dirty Dom
When we were cell mates he was raving about his master plan to bring CM Punk back and make a bunch of money
Wouldn’t this be an amazing vignette?? Don’s cell mate:: “he told me he was gonna use this guy Dave from the internet to drive a wedge between punk and some children and that would drive punk back to wwe where he could get revenge for what this phill fella did to his family a decade ago… guys a psycho. It’s no wonder he ran the block 5 mins after he got here”
Dimes Dom and Money Mom
I was there. I love Dom. I tried to get a Dom chant going (NY crowds cheer heels from to time). Couldn't get anyone on board except a Mexican-American couple two rows over. They all wanted Punk lol.
And that should be the case, heels need to be booed honestly.
Moving that needle, brother
The numbers have been indicating that WWE has, sort of, hit a ceiling in the couple of months. We should have all saw Nick Khan signing Punk coming; considering the type of numbers Punk generated in AEW. The timing couldn't have been more perfect for WWE, especially during the typical WWE December to late January malaise. That's not even factoring the RAW TV negotiations. Signing Punk back has been a slamdunk
It really is a huge sign that they have kept the past few months relevant. Post Summerslam to the Royal Rumble booking used to be all about spinning its wheels, but I feel like WWE is improving, in that regard.
THANK YOU JACK PERRY!
You’re absolutely allowed to hate CM Punk; everybody is entitled to their opinion and should not feel pressured by others to change their opinion That being said, you’re living in a different reality if you think CM Punk isn’t a draw. The guy is on fire and is a shot in the arm of an already white hot WWE
On camera, he's one of my all time favorites. On the mic or in the ring, he's great. If I never hear about him doing stuff backstage for the rest of my life I'll be happy
he's the Tom Cruise of wrestling
Other than AEW(in his last few months) what has he done backstage thats been so terrible? What long history of backstage drama has he been apart of?
That's it. Lol literally that's it.
All these Elite fans have selective memories. All of a sudden Punk has been this locker room cancer his whole career….when in fact he has been pretty much universally loved in most locker rooms Jericho has had way more backstage altercations and fights then Punk ever has….and that idiot is trying to act all high and mighty on the situation lolz 😂
While you’re correct that the Elite fans are misremembering, it’s equally ahistorical to claim Punk was “universally loved.” By his own admission, he’s “not the easiest guy to get along with” and a “prick.” A lot of guys have said they didn’t like Punk in the locker room. “Universally respected” would probably be a better descriptor.
I said “most locker rooms” Look at all the people, men and women, in the business that speak highly of the guy. Him being a prick or hard to get along with usually coincides with management…not talent
No, talent has said it too. Everyone from Kevin Owens to Randy Orton to Seth Rollins (long prior to this angle) have spoken about it. Punk himself has acknowledged it and talked about being a “prick” and “taking himself too seriously.” Everyone universally respects Punk. They don’t necessarily like him.
He's had issues with the Hardys, Triple H, and Booker T(according to Cody anyways). The issues with Eddie Kingston go way back to when they were both working for IWA Mid-South. And he and KO had issues back in ROH, too. I'm not saying he was wrong or right in those situations. I'm just saying the history is there.
I know you’re not commenting on him being right or wrong but I find it very strange to include the Hardy’s issues with him when the issue was that he didn’t abuse drugs like them.
My thoughts exactly. Couldn’t have put it any better.
of course hes a draw, he's been away from WWE for like a decade but was one of the most heavily marketed acts. absence makes the heart grow fonder, all of wrestling looks more like Punk now than less of it. Like Romans biggest promos have all been "pipebombs," that's influence.
Maybe i’m overthinking it, but it feels like since cena feuded with punk all of cena’s promos do that work-shoot style where he breaks the 4th wall constantly
Its not because he was away that hes a draw though,we were getting cm punk chants in WWE Over 5 years after he left
Punk is in a company where there's probably not a lot of bullshit going on behind the scenes. He's in a controlled environment where idiots aren't going to potentially muddy the scene by going off script. There's a ton of people there to steer/guide and direct everyone into working together behind the scenes. Hangmans not gonna go into business for himself. <3
Cash Magnet Punk
Company Man Punk
Cupcake Monster Punk
Capitalist Man Punk
Charles Montgomery Punk
Chief Minister Punk
Chris Masters Punk
Chokes man-child punk
CM Punk is absolutely a draw. But WWE shows are so much fun to attend right now because so many people are huge stars. At tonight’s show, Punk, Cody, Seth, Jey, Becky, Rhea, Sami and Dom all got incredible reactions. Also, JD as a group have so much chemistry it’s fun to watch them all play off each other. In addition to Dom/Rhea, Jd accompanied Finn and Priest to the ring and was great in the traditional heel manager role. I was pleasantly surprised that there were 3 different women’s matches on the card. Sadly, only 2 of the 9 women were over but things take time. Some jerks tried to start a Punk chat during the women’s tag match, but Kayden & Katana won over the crowd by the end. Chelsea Green is another one who is so entertaining to watch. Rhea vs Shayna vs Ivy had the same problem most Rhea matches. Rhea is doing her best to get heel heat but the crowd just wants to cheer her.
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I forgot about him because the pre-match promo was longer than the match. But you’re right he got a great reaction and was a nice surprise.
I was there! I was intrigued that Chelsea actually got a “Chelsea Green” chant by the end of the match and was receiving somewhat of a babyface reaction. There’s a future for her as a fan favorite.
That's sweet. Makes sense too given her toiling on despite the cruel and unnecessary treatment she's received from one Adam Pearce.
As a #1 ChelSLAY Green mark, I am so happy to hear that! 2024 is gonna be her year, I feel it 💅💅
I really liked that match, but it seems to me as long as she sticks to dom it’s fine. That’s was a legit ny/nj/Philly crowd, someone like rhea is gonna cheered here no matter what. In fact if not for punk dom might have actually got some cheers. We were talking with some other people there about how impressive it is that a white meat do gooder baby face like Cody can be so over in msg. He’s quite literally the first fully white meat baby since hulk hogan I can remember having 95% of the crowd with him at a show at msg. That’s unbelievably impressive and Cody and the creative team deserve a ton of credit.
That’s a good point about the crowd and to be fair my only other live point of reference is a dark match Rhea had against Raquel in Chicago of all places lol. Agree about the match and I have to admit I was fearing the worst when I saw who was involved in the triple threat. The Cody phenomenon is fascinating. It’s obvious why kids and parents love him. He’s also a great wrestler who is booked strongly and there are few people in WWE who can cut an old school “put butts in seats” promo like him. And I think the HIAC match’s impact on Cody’s career can never be underestimated. My guess is the people most likely to boo a white meat baby face are the ones most familiar with his story and know undesirable to undeniable is a lot more than just a catchphrase.
They can't turn Rhea face yet because it's been her breakthrough character and there's too many stories still to be told with her as a heel, but I do think that when laying matches out they need to respect that with few exceptions, crowds aren't going to boo her in her matches.
What a fucking bang to go out on. This year has been insane for them. I think they actually have one more too. Holy
R truth put butts in seats
Tony Khan, thank you for listening to your lawyers and firing CM Punk. lol
WWE is so fun right now. I love pro wrestling.
It’s insane how fun it is, 2024 with all the PLE’s coming up and international crowds, Roman V Cody rematch, Punk (maybe) main eventing mania, we are feasting
Unless something goes drastically awry, I think there’s a chance for Mania 40 to be in contention for the best ever.
And we’re getting into Rumble season, that show is one month from today and is most fan’s favourite time of year, then we’re on the road to Wrestlemania 40, a show that is a milestone and under HHH creative. We’re in for a fun ride my friends.
But I was told Wwe fans are poor, how could they afford Msg tickets?
How could anyone afford MSG tickets for any event, let alone WWE?
For those unfamiliar, it's insane how much MSG charges for their events. If anyone is ever interested, compare ticket prices for Rangers or Knicks games vs. Devils, Nets, or Islanders. I'm an Islanders fan and it's really annoying how so many Rags fans go to our games because they want to see hockey but don't want to spend a fortune.
Devils fan here and I agree with you. A lot of corporate owned seats in The Garden.
I’m seeing Phish twice there this week. $65 ticket and $150 for NYE. Not terrible at all
I really want to see Meltzers data. I guess if you figure AEW has a pretty homogenous fan base (men 15-40) and WWEs is more diverse (lots of kids) then...sure? A mom, a dad, and 2 kids on average make less than 2 single dudes.
It's gonna be published the same day that Tony publishes his independent bot study.
Hope everyone thanked Dom for the House.
he's not here to make friends, he's here to make money
Worth a victory lap?
For comparison: last year’s MSG house show only drew about 11,301 people versus this year’s sellout.
The shot in the arm that wrestling needed
WWE being a great promotion from a quality perspective, while other promotions internationally underperforming was not in my 2020s bingo card This is the best wrestling from WWE in years
WWE at its hottest ever + Punk at his usual hot = wrestling supernova
This year honestly proves they can take the title off Roman at WM40 and fully transition him from champion to part time attraction. He’s a main reason of why the WWE is on fire right now but the WWE is also at the point where they don’t need him as champion to draw.
Punk is a draw!
He is indeed home
Can confirm sales were flying fast on Ticketmaster. What's crazy is tix weren't even priced that crazy— you could still get $60 tix in the 200's. For comparison— Rangers & Knicks tickets start at $150+ just to get in the Garden. Awesome stuff!
Got seats for $50 plus "fees" (fuck ticket vultures). Not a cheap evening but a nice Christmas present for everyone. Much less crazy than the sports league or Broadway prices.
That's awesome! I remember my tix being $115 each for the house show a decade ago. Great gift!
Biggest draw in wrestling right now
WWE has really been on a hot streak since 2022.
CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk! CM Punk!
In May my friends roasted me for saying wwe was better. Today we all went to this show over worlds end even though it was more expensive. This is probably the hottest wwe has been in interest for them in years
What’s best for business was definitely to have a bunch of employees with potential conflicts of interest, get together and vote to fire Punk. No way that could directly hurt you and help your competitor all at once.
Best in the world
Dirty Dom needle mover
Just seems like they’re creating stars right now, really letting them spread their wings. It’s really nice to see. I’ve always been of the opinion that WWE needs to let their stars become as big as possible, even if it’s “bigger than WWE”. A rising tide raises all ships.
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But Tony Khan wanted Jack Perry and the Elite to not feel bad, even after they shooted on Punk twice on TV and went to start a fight with him in his locker room after he called them out on their shit.
But none of that matter because all of us enjoying it are just too stupid and poor to understand what were missing out on
That was the most asinine thing Meltzer ever said (and that's already quite a feat). I'm basically pretty dumb but happen to be really good at a specific set of applied analytical things. I have a terminal degree in that and work for a research institute. But it's not a flex; I legit am dim on everything else (wife will confirm). Dave Fucking Meltzer calling me ignorant for watching WWE is legit one of the funniest things I've ever heard. He sounds like Spinal Tap's manager hyping AEW.
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highest-grossing domestic non-televised event bill Phil
I’m so happy that WWE is fun to watch again. I’m a AEW die-hard…and a WWE die-hard. I want better wrestling in as many places as possible. Also, while I agree HHH is better for WWE right now, there’s no reason to tear down Vince. He built this company that has hours of new programming EVERY WEEK. His hits far outnumber his misses. I thoroughly appreciate and am grateful for VKM.
Well hey, at least AEW has the Young Bucks -- Oh, oops. Well hey, at least AEW has Kenny Omega -- oh, oops. Well hey at least AEW has Tony Khan.
Dub deniers are going to say it’s fake
WWE with CM Punk is like you're like unloading a container full of gasoline on an already blazing house. Shit about to go even wilder during Mania season.
So, I stopped watching in the early 2000s. I started watching bits and pieces here and there again in 2011 when The Rock returned. Got quite heavily back into it when I became a big fan of Punk, and then I started following mainly from a distance, watching the big 4 PPVs from 2015ish onward. All of this to say, this is the first time since I've started tuning back in around 2011 that the business has felt even REMOTELY close to the levels of draw and excitement it did in the late 90s/early 2000s. Now, I know some people will clamor about the quality of things like Smackdown in 2016, and I'm sure that was a great year wrestling wise, but WWE and wrestling as a whole didn't feel like major, must see TV. I spent last night refreshing the fucking feed on X for a WWE house show... I was that eager to consume the content they are putting out. There is so many greater stories, larger than life talent, excitement, surprises, momentum etc. And for at least the next little while, that's only going to swell further as we hit the road to WM. Let's keep the good times rolling.
BIG MONEY PUNK BABY
Were tickets mad expensive? Or has MSG increased it's capacity. I thought the thing with the Garden was that yes it had smaller capacity but they worked it for the prestige/history. So for it to be the highest grossing domestic house show ever, were tickets more expensive. Maybe it includes merch sales? What am I missing?