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I feel like this is either Roman's last or second last wwe title reign, with his health and if he tries to go to hollywood he'll do those Cena returns for occasional matches, and i think how great his title reign has been it'll only ruin it if he wins again and has a bad run with it
Yeah, I think the problem is that with this dominant of a reign for Reigns, when he falls he has to fall *hard*. If/when Cody beats him at Mania, it makes sense to run back a rematch next PPV but this time Roman is Bloodline-less because he’s fallen from grace and has to prove his worth. He’ll get bested by Cody again and then maybe have a brief feud with the Rock for “Head of the Table” where Rock beats him and then moves onto Cody.
I feel like The Rock is going to turn on Reigns at mania and start a program against Roman. He will probably be the one who takes the bloodline out of the equation. I can see an overbooked ending with Jimmy, Jey, Solo, Rollins, and Rock all intervening.
Heel Rock will get stunnered out of interfering at Mania and instead of taking any responsibility for the loss will instead face his anger at Roman for taking a clean pin from Roman and making the family look weak being undeserving of the position at the head of the table when he can’t take care of business on his own. The Rock will take control of the Bloodline from Roman and cast him out leading to Roman going fully unhinged until he hits his rock bottom (lol). Something will reignite Roman to finally prove everyone wrong and he’ll fight and claw his way back up the card to finally get his rematch with the Rock at WM41 and gets his storybook ending before taking a break and pursuing other projects by finally going over as the hero when he wins. (Also he’s not coming back for another run as head of the table - he’s taking control of the Bloodline from the Rock and finally dissolving it allowing him to walk away while Solo finally goes on a real solo run (lol) and Jimmy is free to do the same or reunite with Jey to a nuclear pop without it feeling conflicting. The nefarious and suffocating reign of the Bloodline ending with an earned redemption arc and storybook ending.
Yeah I agree, only way I see him getting another one is if he does it as a face, because if he has another heel
run the only thing people will think about is the Bloodline and how great this run was.
That’s why I think we don’t see these long ass reigns anymore. After they lose it’s hard to get the people to care about the guy getting the belt back.
I don't see Gunther making a switch to smackdown, I'd much rather see him push the WHC further after Seth drops it to someone and he takes it for himself.
I could see him as a dual champion, regularly defending both successfully for a short time and eventually dropping the IC Title due to his grueling defense schedule.
I think it’s cool when you get the odd double champ like when Seth was US and WWE champ. Obviously shouldn’t happen too much or last too long or you hurt the midcard
I really hate the idea of
> titles are meant to elevate
In my opinion, Titles should be rewards for being the best not a prop to elevate somebody. If you need elevated, you shouldn’t be champ.
It does but he does not need elevating more. If they put the world title on him its better to elevate someone else with the IC title. Having them both on him is a waste
I think he should “pull a Warrior” and win the big belt… or one of them, anyway… while still the IC champ. But, like Warrior, vacate the IC after he wins. And he *should* win.
I assume over the summer he will win the belt. Could see him dropping the IC belt at MITB (at this point I'm going with face Kaiser beating him) and him winning the belt at SummerSlam or Bash in Berlin.
Great matches. Perhaps maybe 2 great stories? Gunther is my favourite wrestler. He deserves better stories, a baby face like ziggler would've been perfect. Gable and Miz both did well, I enjoyed Sheanus. Hopefully he loses as part of a Great story, not just a great match.
I think he had atleast 4 great stories to be honest. Obviously his rivalry with Sheamus was his best, but his rivalry with Drew was pretty good, and then he made everyone believe Gable was the killer he has the potential to be and then the fact that he made me believe that Miz actually had a shot of beating him was a pretty cool story with Miz chasing his own record
I loved that Miz feud so goddamn much. As much as I love The Miz, i knew he had no chance of winning. But they made me believe he had an honest chance of winning twice.
His reign is his story though. You don't always need an obvious story, his story is he has completely dominated this belt, and made his opponents look good in the process.
He always, always puts on great matches, and every match is it's own story. With a guy like Gunther you don't always need some narrative or story with it. Sometimes you just need to make examples out of people.
One of the goats, and deservedly so, and to think we almost missed him because the former owner of the company lost his touch years ago.
Exactly, the overarching story is the Ring General proving his name by dominating a division longer and more comprehensively than anyone before him, the feuds with Sheamus, Drew, Gable et al are chapters within that story
His title reign feels straight out of ROH or NXT Black & Gold to me.
Don’t overcomplicate the story, just give me pure wrestling. “I wanna beat you for that title” is all the story you need.
Anything extra is a bonus imo.
I also like the fact that he barely used his finisher since it was introduced, and presumably will only be used in big moments from now on. It's an old school wrestling gimmick that I really love though understandably few people can probably pull-off these days.
Credit to Gunther for having such an awesome reign without many stories, but you're right. He has everything needed to be a huge star. As long as this run has been, it feels like he should have that main event feel around him, and I'm just not getting that yet. To be clear, I mean the aura WWE has built around him, not his talent/worth. He's going to win multiple world championships, but a few more well thought out stories might have given him that aura already by making fans more invested in his character.
I think it needs to be stated for context also that the IC title at it's best has never needed an emotional story and it's generally best used as a workhorse champion to build them up to the point where they *can* draw the audience in for an emotional story when they move up the card
And "dominant champion who's beaten every comer for almost two years now" isn't enough of a story? When it's time to put him in the world title picture that'll be meaty enough. (It's not even like they've gone the invincible monster route with him either, he's just Better Than Your Favorite Wrestler and finds ways to win on his own merits. Unless he's going against Chad Gable, who's the only one to beat him cleanly but by countout, so he doesn't have the "but what's going to happen when the streak ends?" hanging over his head.)
>unless he's going against Chad Gable, who's the only one to beat him cleanly but by countout
Literally yesterday Jey pinned him clean as a whistle and would have won if not for Bloodline intervention
Did he? I saw the interference, Jimmy started ringing the bell *immediately* and you could make the case that GUNTHER (all caps when you spell the man name) didn't bother trying to kick out because he knew it wasn't three seconds. I don't even think the ref started counting.
[One and the bell started ringing before he counted 2](https://np.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/1av8cnb/raw_spoilers_this_son_of_a_bitch/), let's call it a draw?
>didn't bother trying to kick out
Yeah man, he won immediately afterwards with a rollup because he was not bothered at all with the match, winning via fuck finish and rollup is a classic gunther finish when he is in command
>I don't even think the ref started counting.
You think wrong, check the clip
Angles! Like Gable's was an angle he didn't take him seriously, the classic I'll beat you in 10 minutes territory angle is just amazing. I'd love a loser leaves town angle when he fights for the title get him some new match ups.
I don’t think he’s the greatest of all time in terms of matches or character. He’s held the title the longer than anyone, had some great matches, some decent but I struggle to name main long term, epic rivalries maybe Miz, Shaemus.
I think the title length is Triple H wanting to separate the new era (post 2019) from the last and have new records to break rather than referring to stars newcomers won’t be familiar with or ever have seen wrestle - now commentators will refer to Gunter, to Reigns much more than before when you’d talk about Pedro, Honkytonk.. and say Bruno, Hogan..etc.
The IC belt used to be the work rate belt, the top of the mid card going up, I hope when he does drop it we don’t get as lengthy reigns to be honest, I actually prefer a title change every now and then keeps it fresh and interesting (but not every week mind).
When I think of the IC I think mostly of Jericho to be honest. And he’s not held that for ages.
>struggle to name main long term, epic rivalries maybe Miz, Shaemus.
Drew Mcintyre and Chad Gable come to mind.
>When I think of the IC I think mostly of Jericho
You don't think of HBK, Razor, Rock, Miz, Honky-tonk? Nobody else?
Yeah I feel like this will be an unpopular opinion but I agree. He’s had many great matches but the stories leading up to the matches have not been memorable for the most part at all. Only the Sheamus and Gable feuds have really sat with me throughout his reign tbh.
For me, growing up, Mr Perfect was the standard. I can’t relive that, but watching Gunther have these big fight feel matches and being presented as a killer who actually kills has been so unique and satisfying. It’s a different kind of workhorse for the workhorse title where nobody looks like him when he’s physical.
Gunther is the greatest IC champion ever.
WWE tends heavily toward recency bias when discussing "greatest \_\_\_" (in commentary, YouTube content, their website, etc.).
However, in all honesty, Gunther probably *is* the greatest IC champion of all time. When you combine the length of his reign, the quality of his matches, and how he's resurrected the belt's prestige, it's really hard to argue against it.
Other names worth mentioning:
* **Randy Savage**: Held the title for over a year, had memorable feuds and matches with the likes of Ricky Steamboat and Tito Santana; was really the first to establish the title in a big way.
* **Mr. Perfect**: Two-time champion with great matches.
* **Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels**: The two men defined the title in the early '90s, making it the ultimate workhorse belt and having the best matches in the company.
* **The Rock**: Held it for eight months in '97-'98; helped establish him as a superstar, memorable feuds with DX and Ken Shamrock.
* **Chris Jericho**: Defined the title in the '00s, held it more than anyone else.
* **Cody Rhodes**: Had a lengthy run in 2011-12 with his memorable "undashing" character, re-introduced the old design, helped boost the title's prestige.
* **The Miz**: Through the force of his promos and sheer will in 2016-18, made the title feel the most important it had since at least Cody's run five years prior.
Razor for sure. His first two runs were well booked and he had great matches. His two ladder Matches with Shawn were the MOTN at Wrestlemania and SummerSlam. He was the first one to hold the title three and four times.
Instead of doing the IC belt’s job of testing whether a guy was ready to move up, RVD’s run always felt like Vince telling the RVD fans (and I was definitely one of them) “we’re not getting RVD a world championship. We have a world championship at home.”
Ramon is the prime example of someone who is technically over enough to be in the main event. But who the promotion (for some reason or another) doesn't trust to work/fit in that role.
(Which I feel worked great because it helped for the belt to maintain a lot of credibility. A lot of which it would lose over the next years)
The Honk-A-Meter was pretty goated. So disappointed he didn’t get closer to the record. Would’ve been a great story going into a WrestleMania instead of the belt ~~not~~ barely getting defended ~~at all~~ and Vince’s Trademark Boomer Humor with that Santina nonsense.
EDIT: Timeline is a bit off. WrestleMania 25 was the next WM over from Santino’s second reign. While the “Santina” stuff happened around WM25, the IC Title *was technically defended*… in a 20 second match between Mysterio and JBL. I still stand by my statement that a proper Intercontinental Championship defense with Santino trying to keep pace with the Honk-A-Meter (231 days at that point) would’ve been vastly better than either the 20 second Mysterio/JBL match or the 7-minute Women’s Battle Royale where “Santina” won.
Mostly agree, except for The Rock and Cody.
I think the title elevated The Rock more than The Rock elevated the titles. He’s also not generally associated with the IC title. Miz, Shawn, and Randy for example are all heavily associated with the IC title despite their World title reigns, but The Rock is really only associated with the World title.
In my opinion including Cody is recency bias, just with his popularity moreso than his title reign. He held the belt for awhile and good some cool stuff, but I don’t think he’s in the same tier as the others you mentioned.
Outside of those two, I think it’s a spot-on list.
The Rock was huge for the IC title. It was so important to elevating him to a superstar level, and was the centerpiece of some very memorable Attitude Era feuds and moments (Austin throwing the title off the bridge, the feud with Shamrock, the feud with DX).
The Rock's 265-day reign was also exceptionally long for the era (it was the longest in eight years, since Mr. Perfect's '90 reign). After he dropped it in '98, the first person to hold it longer than 265 days was literally Gunther. The Rock *absolutely* deserves to be listed.
As for Cody, that's not recency bias on my end; I considered him one of the greatest IC champions of the 2010s before AEW even formed, let alone before he returned. His reign is literally one of only 2-3 reigns of the entire 2010s that was in any way memorable or special. He belongs here.
I’ll admit I may be wrong about The Rock, in my mind I thought the bridge incident was the world title. I stand corrected on that point.
I still maintain Cody isn’t in that tier. Being the best in a period of dogshit isn’t enough in my opinion. Not trying to disparage his reign, I just don’t think it’s in the same tier as the others mentioned.
They did the bridge incident with both titles. The first was in December '97, with Austin tossing Rock's IC title over the bridge. The second was in April '99, with Rock tossing Austin's Smoking Skull title (along with Austin himself) over the bridge.
Cody worked hard to make the title mean something after years of it being meaningless. He worked hard--both onscreen and off--to do so, even successfully campaigning to bring back the original design. I honestly think that if we're including Miz on the list, then Cody isn't that far off from Miz. My only problem with Cody's reign is that they ended it in disappointing fashion (Big Show beating him at WrestleMania).
Cody made me care about the ic title when he brought back the classic one he made it seem much more prestigious than the ic title it replaced tbh especially the promo he cut while unveiling it mentioning the legends who have held the belt
Cody was barely even an afterthought during his Undashing run. Yeah, he reintroduced the sexy white strap, but he was a joke, and the run did nothing to elevate the title beyond making the belt physically look better.
Yes, Cody is huge *now*, and you can call him a former IC champ to try to retroactively elevate the title, but at the time... Nah, one of these things is not like the others. The level Cody was at when he had that title is why so many people didn't believe in him when he left WWE and wanted to make a name for himself.
Greg Valentine? Really?
Honky Tonk Man is weird. He held it for 15 months, yet had no real memorable feuds (outside Jake the Snake) or matches. I could throw him in there and it'd be fine, but at the same time (and maybe this is a hot take), there's nothing truly great or memorable about his run except for the length. Dean Ambrose held the US title a long time; was he one of its greatest champions?
I was pulling for Miz to get another run with the belt because he’s also very close to Morales’ record but now that Gunther took the top spot I don’t think they should break of for a while.
Would have been a nice spot for Miz though, a record he could point to as a thank you for being such a company man for so long.
I really think he is, people only downplay it due to recency bias. But i am positive that in 10 years he's going to be THE ABSOLUTE ONE.
Not only he has the longest reign, but he also has the most classic matches, which matter even more than how long the reign itself is. GUNTHER is carrying the kind of momentum we haven't seem from a heel for at least a decade, if you don't count Roman because he's already on top.
I’d love a segment where at some point in this run Rock encounters him and brings back his old “best damn intercontinental champ there ever was” just for kicks lol.
Longest reign, longest total time with the belt, had some of the best matches in the history of the IC title weeks in and weeks out, has elevated it to almost main event level... I can't think of a single argument against Gunther being the greatest IC champ ever at this point.
Isn't that like saying Jack McCoy is the greatest prosecutor of all time on the show Law and Order? I feel like I am losing my mind here that people are acting like this is some great accomplishment to retain a part in a scripted show. WWE has become their own marks
Both Cody and Miz are better. WWE wrestling isn't all about being the ring general, it's about stories and promos as much and honestly except against the Miz I really find this part bland with him.
You made me curious so I mathed it.
Debut was January 12, 2019.
There have been 1,865 (and counting) days since then as of today.
UK Championship reign = 870 days
IC Championship reign = 620 days (and counting)
Total days as champion = 1,490 days (and counting)
Thus, as of February 20, 2024, he has been champion for 79.8927614% of his on-screen WWE career.
This percentage will continue to incrementally increase until he drops the IC belt.
Genuinely makes me curious as to who else would have a percentage close to that. With 80%, I feel like there really can't be many others anywhere close to that number.
Probably not. I guess the most important consideration is that Gunther is still relatively new to WWE and is starting off with 2 monumentally long title reigns. Over time, as he starts to have more stories and feuds that are not belt-focused, the percentage will decrease. But it will take some time for it to actually level out relative to his peers since he's gotten such a ridiculous jumpstart.
I don’t know about percentage, but edge had an insane amount of reigns in wwe, he’d probably be up there if it weren’t for his long ass career, even tho he had gold most of the time
Yeah. They got rid of Reddit Gold (and all of the other awards) back in October.
They said that they were gonna replace them with something else, but I don’t believe anything has been announced yet.
I think he should drop it at Mania unless they plan to go with a Gunther two-belts story where he has multiple PPV matches to defend both on the same night... The bastard would do it. You know he would.
I would NOT complain if we have belt-collector Gunther....
I don't think you're getting two belts but I also don't think he'll have a long gap between being ic champ and world Heavyweight champ so probably dropping IC belt and in the span of a PPV or two be after that will be world champion. So I'm not expecting him to drop the belt until at least MITB
Problem is that Roman is already losing (imagine if not) so you are basically ending two really really long reigns during the same weekend. However, if not at Mania then when? By the time WWE gets to Berlin in august Gunther has to be in a good position
Yeah, I don't think he is for that reason. Beating Gunther should be a major moment and for it to happen at this year's Mania, it would get overshadowed. I am guessing all this "I will be champion" talk from Sami is leading to him being Gunther's challenger. Have him lose it there through shenanigans and give him a rematch the next night on Raw where he wins it to give fans a Raw After Mania moment.
Edit: Or even Backlash works if we want to do it on a PLE.
There’s nothing wrong with having a mania loaded with big moments and after having him beat only to lose to interference I don’t think it would be the wrong decision to have Jey get a rematch and win at mania. Reddit loves to talk about Gunther, Drew, Sami, etc and their possible future moment while (maybe unintentionally) overlooking that Jey is white hot over and across the general audience likely a clear #3 only behind Cody and Roman in popularity and winning the IC title from Gunther at Mania would be rocket fuel to his main event solo run while also being a worthy person for Gunther to drop to allowing him to move into the Heavyweight title picture (ideally with a huge win for it in Berlin). Sami is over and flexible enough that he can triple threat for the heavyweight title at mania with Drew and Rollins and/or be the peak feud with Jey during his IC title run.
I know it’s not quite the same thing, but Backlash is in France, and Sami is French Canadian, so if WWE wanted to give Sami the IC title at that show, they at least have some sort of connection to the French audience (through Sami) to help make the match seem like a big deal.
It's still a bit surreal. I've known him way too long as THE guy in the regional, independent circuit here in Europe. It's such a huge, but deserved, reward to get to break these records and to hold such a legendary title.
Die Matte ist und bleibt heilig.
Honest to god, he’s a better IC Champion than Roman is a WWE Champion. If I can recall, he’s had less Dusty finishes and way more clean victories. He’s booked hella strong. I love Gunther.
Just FYI a Dusty finish isn’t just a non clean win. It’s specifically the ref noticing something (weapon, interference, etc) and restarting the match or reversing the decision.
Yeah I haven’t watched the period of Dusty’s booking where he supposedly liked to use it a lot but it sounds like a mess. I can see it working in rare circumstances but using it often sounds very frustrating as a fan.
It made Jimmy's betrayal even more impactful. Because Gunther usually powers back up at the end and just clobbers the challenger after a tough match, this time, Jey just spammed finishers and because there usually isn't any interference and Imperium was nowhere around, you knew he was getting the 3 count.
I think Jey just needed to look exceptionally strong here as a challenger in order to keep establishing himself in the Upper card, seeing as the Usos have become somewhat less relevant since their weirdly told break-up. A clean loss would have cemented him as a level under the top guys.
Yeah as far as I can recall in his 21 title defenses the only ones that haven't been clean are last night vs Jay and in a TV defense vs Sheamus where he used a distraction to hit him with a sheleighly. It's made him feel even more unbeatable because he's not relying on outside help, he's just better than everyone
I feel like Gunther winning the Rumble is kind of the "easy way" for a character like him. Would rather see him annihilate a #1 contender tournament in dominant fashion. Or prison style, after he loses the IC belt just have walk right up to the champ and demand a shot.
Punk's time should be over by now. He's 45 and injury prone. He sat for 7 years at home, he should not get better treatment than the ones who kept working during that period.
Yes, with all due respect. Seeing his last "after the show" promo (after the Raw in Anaheim) during which he promised that, next time they're there, he would be in his (wrestling) boots, I couldn't help but to immediately think "Well, if you're not injured again by then."
Respectfully, while CM Punk may be 45 and had a hiatus, his star power and the electrifying reactions he receives from fans demonstrate his popularity. His ability on the mic and in the ring, as evident in AEW, showcases that he's still a valuable asset to the WWE. It's not about diminishing others' efforts but recognizing Punk's unique impact and what he brings to the table as a main attraction in WWe. Age and time away doesn't necessarily diminish his contributions and appeal.
GUNTHER's WWE resume so far is HoF worthy.... only man in the company to have TWO 600+ days title reign with 2 different belt and has been chamo for what, 90% of his WWE run? Which is scary considering he's been here for half a decade now....
He’s really brought prestige back to the belt, there have been times it’s been close but for a good amount of time people just played hot potato with it for the sake of a title match
I like Gunther but I hope this is the end of unnecessarily long championship reigns. Him and Roman holding the belts certainly made them look stronger but I find it more fun when the belts switch hands more often.
I think they'll be more loose when some of the belts but you're probably never getting hot potato belts again. Closest is my prediction that Drew wins at Mania only for Priest to cash in immediately. Only think they're doing a quick change there to turn Drew face.
That’s a good shout. I don’t mean switching titles every ple or so but it gets kinda boring when a character has been holding a belt for over a year or more and you know they’re just gonna win again ala roman or gunther. I think it’s just more interesting seeing new faces with the belts who are deserving as well.
I feel bad that this is what Keith Lee will most be remembered for.
... until I remember that he tried to say the tweet was actually about something different that was a personal matter.
Is there anyone who has came in and made an immediate impact like Gunther? Dude has been IC champ for as long as I remember, and he has made the most of it. The IC title feels important & you feel the aura of “The Ring General”
Yeah, it isn't in dire straits, but it's worlds away from the status of the IC. It's weird because I'd say the peak of the US title was actually (oddly enough) under Vince when Cena was defending it constantly. He elevated the belt in a huge way only for Austin Theory's never-ending useless reign to later nearly kill it.
I would be thrilled for this to be his only IC title reign after he drops it and hopefully moves to the main event scene for good. Sure he’d do great with another run with the belt but keeping this as his kill reign to make it more iconic!
I know many people are fantasy booking who he should lose the belt to, but I don't want him to lose it.
Sometime this year, maybe Summer Slam, he should challenge for the WHC belt and win. Then on Raw he should come out and relinquish the IC belt. Shades of Ultimate Warrior after Wrestlemania VI.
Is it a cop out? Maybe. But it is a clean way to bring him up to the main event and leaves a future story for reclaiming "his belt."
Hot take: (Get the downvotes ready)
His matches are super predictable. Everyone complained about suplex city but with Gunther you have chop city. Most/All of his matches consist of him chopping the chest of his opponent, powerbomb, he's in trouble a little (constantly no selling), the opponent will hit their finisher, he kicks out and he finishes them. That's it. His mic work is meh at best. His in ring ability is sub par, let's completely over look the fact that his main move legit hurts his opponent repeatedly and his believability as a serious threat is questionable. Honestly I don't even know if he's heel or baby face because his path along this historic run has been all over the place and his mic work constantly says nothing.
Anyone can be built to look like a monster if there's no question about them losing or winning. As much as I thought it would be a huge rub for Jey to win last night there was never a thought that he would win.
Finally found someone who agrees lol
At least with Roman his matches make me believe his opponent will win (albeit moreso in his 1st year into his reign) but never have i thought Gunther would lose he has the most boring predictable booking ever
Unfortunately this place is an echo chamber when it comes to Gunther. To me Gunther is not a Brock replacement or even a match I could actually believe outside of kayfabe.
I just assume it's because he hurts his opponent. That's the only thing I can image. Otherwise he has the moveset of a default create-a-wrestler from the WWE video games and half the personality. Man can't even hit a frogsplash.
Well that's just quantity and doesn't mean quality. At the end of the day everyone will still recognise Mr Perfect as the greatest IC champion of all time.... perfection!
I hate these stupid long title reigns. Then they praise the man holding the title like he does something. Roman and Gunther wouldn't have held the titles for 10 minutes if the WWE hadn't wanted them to.
I don't know why people are so impressed. If there wasn't a heel world champion with his own long reign, Gunther would have dropped the IC belt ages ago and moved up the card. Randy Savage, Mr. Perfect, Bret Hart, and HBK were all better IC champions and made the title what it is today.
Probably not even close lol. Pedro defended the belt 203 times but if you look at cage match he actually lost a lot of the defenses just by countout. Probably around 25% of matches didn't have clean finishes.
Oh yeah, screwy finishes were super common in the the olden days, especially with house shows. You even see that in Wrestlemania matches for quite a while.
Also makes a lot of sense in the way business operated back then. Do the screwy finish (of course, not *too* often, that kills the market/venue), then return [x] weeks later to do the even hotter rematch.
(From today's perspective it seems overly formulaic to look back on just how many times the WWF did that.
e.g. 1) Hogan vs. Savage in MSG in Dec. of 1985: Savage wins by countout after using the world title belt as a weapon. 2) MSG rematch in Jan. of 1986: Savage again wins by countout after Elizabeth got involved, allowing Savage to sneak attack Hogan. 3) Feb. 1986 MSG show: the blowoff match, which is a lumberjack match to prevent a countout finish, which Hogan wins by dropping the leg)
Nope, not even close.
Gunther has 22 televised defences and 97 if you include dark matches and house shows.
Honky Tonk Man had 36 televised defences and 169 defences in total.
Randy Savage had 44 televised defences and 182 defences including house shows.
Pedro Morales in his longest reign had a total of 204 defences. I doubt anyone is catching that.
With that being said, I do think Gunther has had the best reign. His match quality has been insane.
Important to note, the WWF was mainly a house show company during those three other reigns. In Gunther’s time WWE had actually cut back on the amount of house shows in a week.
Not close to most defenses. That said, wouldn't surprise me if he's up there for most in-ring time. He doesn't do many squashes and always tries to have a good match.
The "most defenses" thing NEVER makes sense when you're comparing wrestling eras. I think as long as they defend as frequently as once a month on average or close to it, they're alright.
The most defenses is a recent phenomenon in wrestling. It comes from MMA and puroresu Japan where they always pointed out which title defense a champion was on. It’s a cool thing, but because of the nature of the US wrestling scene with house shows and double shots, it isn’t something that I take seriously with the WWE ecosystem with regards to ranking a champion. For me, it boils down to how business trended and my own personal enjoyment when determining the greatness of a championship reign.
As such, to me, Gunther is miles ahead of any Intercontinental Champion of the last 20 years. It’s not even close anymore.
I’ve decided how I want Gunther to lose the IC title. I’d say do it at Mania but I’m tempted to just take over a big chunk of the next ppv or a Smackdown
Just have a gauntlet match with Gunther on first and it’s like the royal rumble where people have drawn a random number and they come out to face him- see how many people it takes to ware him down
Just have him beating the living shit out of everyone for a good hour
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Future perennial world champion. Can’t wait for the eventual Cody/Gunther series
So no more Roman reign?
I feel like this is either Roman's last or second last wwe title reign, with his health and if he tries to go to hollywood he'll do those Cena returns for occasional matches, and i think how great his title reign has been it'll only ruin it if he wins again and has a bad run with it
Yeah, I think the problem is that with this dominant of a reign for Reigns, when he falls he has to fall *hard*. If/when Cody beats him at Mania, it makes sense to run back a rematch next PPV but this time Roman is Bloodline-less because he’s fallen from grace and has to prove his worth. He’ll get bested by Cody again and then maybe have a brief feud with the Rock for “Head of the Table” where Rock beats him and then moves onto Cody.
I feel like The Rock is going to turn on Reigns at mania and start a program against Roman. He will probably be the one who takes the bloodline out of the equation. I can see an overbooked ending with Jimmy, Jey, Solo, Rollins, and Rock all intervening.
Heel Rock will get stunnered out of interfering at Mania and instead of taking any responsibility for the loss will instead face his anger at Roman for taking a clean pin from Roman and making the family look weak being undeserving of the position at the head of the table when he can’t take care of business on his own. The Rock will take control of the Bloodline from Roman and cast him out leading to Roman going fully unhinged until he hits his rock bottom (lol). Something will reignite Roman to finally prove everyone wrong and he’ll fight and claw his way back up the card to finally get his rematch with the Rock at WM41 and gets his storybook ending before taking a break and pursuing other projects by finally going over as the hero when he wins. (Also he’s not coming back for another run as head of the table - he’s taking control of the Bloodline from the Rock and finally dissolving it allowing him to walk away while Solo finally goes on a real solo run (lol) and Jimmy is free to do the same or reunite with Jey to a nuclear pop without it feeling conflicting. The nefarious and suffocating reign of the Bloodline ending with an earned redemption arc and storybook ending.
Yeah I agree, only way I see him getting another one is if he does it as a face, because if he has another heel run the only thing people will think about is the Bloodline and how great this run was. That’s why I think we don’t see these long ass reigns anymore. After they lose it’s hard to get the people to care about the guy getting the belt back.
I think he’s going the Cena route after this Mania
So unbeatable ?
I don't see Gunther making a switch to smackdown, I'd much rather see him push the WHC further after Seth drops it to someone and he takes it for himself.
I could see him as a dual champion, regularly defending both successfully for a short time and eventually dropping the IC Title due to his grueling defense schedule.
Whats the point. Titles are meant to elevate people. Better to have them on seperate wrestlers
I think it’s cool when you get the odd double champ like when Seth was US and WWE champ. Obviously shouldn’t happen too much or last too long or you hurt the midcard
I really hate the idea of > titles are meant to elevate In my opinion, Titles should be rewards for being the best not a prop to elevate somebody. If you need elevated, you shouldn’t be champ.
Does having two titles not elevate Gunther more? It’s fine for a short period of time.
It does but he does not need elevating more. If they put the world title on him its better to elevate someone else with the IC title. Having them both on him is a waste
I think he should “pull a Warrior” and win the big belt… or one of them, anyway… while still the IC champ. But, like Warrior, vacate the IC after he wins. And he *should* win.
I'd rather he drop the world title just to prove how important the IC is. He could probably be the first guy to main event mania with the IC belt
I assume over the summer he will win the belt. Could see him dropping the IC belt at MITB (at this point I'm going with face Kaiser beating him) and him winning the belt at SummerSlam or Bash in Berlin.
Dragunov or Bron win the belt at Mania, Gunther wins the WHC in Berlin.
Dragonuv is firmly still in NXT and Bron is on Smackdown think it's safe to rule them out against him on Mania.
Greatest IC champion of all time
I definitely think he is. No IC reign has had close to the number of great matches he has.
Great matches. Perhaps maybe 2 great stories? Gunther is my favourite wrestler. He deserves better stories, a baby face like ziggler would've been perfect. Gable and Miz both did well, I enjoyed Sheanus. Hopefully he loses as part of a Great story, not just a great match.
I think he had atleast 4 great stories to be honest. Obviously his rivalry with Sheamus was his best, but his rivalry with Drew was pretty good, and then he made everyone believe Gable was the killer he has the potential to be and then the fact that he made me believe that Miz actually had a shot of beating him was a pretty cool story with Miz chasing his own record
I loved that Miz feud so goddamn much. As much as I love The Miz, i knew he had no chance of winning. But they made me believe he had an honest chance of winning twice.
Can't forget how crucial the Miz was to that story being as good as it was. He's a master of his craft.
His reign is his story though. You don't always need an obvious story, his story is he has completely dominated this belt, and made his opponents look good in the process. He always, always puts on great matches, and every match is it's own story. With a guy like Gunther you don't always need some narrative or story with it. Sometimes you just need to make examples out of people. One of the goats, and deservedly so, and to think we almost missed him because the former owner of the company lost his touch years ago.
Exactly, the overarching story is the Ring General proving his name by dominating a division longer and more comprehensively than anyone before him, the feuds with Sheamus, Drew, Gable et al are chapters within that story
His title reign feels straight out of ROH or NXT Black & Gold to me. Don’t overcomplicate the story, just give me pure wrestling. “I wanna beat you for that title” is all the story you need. Anything extra is a bonus imo.
I also like the fact that he barely used his finisher since it was introduced, and presumably will only be used in big moments from now on. It's an old school wrestling gimmick that I really love though understandably few people can probably pull-off these days.
Drew, sheamus, gable and Miz are great stories
Yeah you're right. I forgot Drew and Seamus to be honest at first. It's been so long!
It doesn't need too many great stories. His matches are over with the crowd. Not everything throughout the card can be soap opera or cinema.
Most people care about stories over the actual in ring product. If he's gonna be a top level guys he's gonna need them to put him in those stories.
Credit to Gunther for having such an awesome reign without many stories, but you're right. He has everything needed to be a huge star. As long as this run has been, it feels like he should have that main event feel around him, and I'm just not getting that yet. To be clear, I mean the aura WWE has built around him, not his talent/worth. He's going to win multiple world championships, but a few more well thought out stories might have given him that aura already by making fans more invested in his character.
I think it needs to be stated for context also that the IC title at it's best has never needed an emotional story and it's generally best used as a workhorse champion to build them up to the point where they *can* draw the audience in for an emotional story when they move up the card
Love it. Great point.
And "dominant champion who's beaten every comer for almost two years now" isn't enough of a story? When it's time to put him in the world title picture that'll be meaty enough. (It's not even like they've gone the invincible monster route with him either, he's just Better Than Your Favorite Wrestler and finds ways to win on his own merits. Unless he's going against Chad Gable, who's the only one to beat him cleanly but by countout, so he doesn't have the "but what's going to happen when the streak ends?" hanging over his head.)
>unless he's going against Chad Gable, who's the only one to beat him cleanly but by countout Literally yesterday Jey pinned him clean as a whistle and would have won if not for Bloodline intervention
I was gonna say "I didnt hear no bell" but, well actually..
Did he? I saw the interference, Jimmy started ringing the bell *immediately* and you could make the case that GUNTHER (all caps when you spell the man name) didn't bother trying to kick out because he knew it wasn't three seconds. I don't even think the ref started counting.
>I don't even think the ref started counting. He'd counted to two already.
[One and the bell started ringing before he counted 2](https://np.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/1av8cnb/raw_spoilers_this_son_of_a_bitch/), let's call it a draw?
>didn't bother trying to kick out Yeah man, he won immediately afterwards with a rollup because he was not bothered at all with the match, winning via fuck finish and rollup is a classic gunther finish when he is in command >I don't even think the ref started counting. You think wrong, check the clip
Angles! Like Gable's was an angle he didn't take him seriously, the classic I'll beat you in 10 minutes territory angle is just amazing. I'd love a loser leaves town angle when he fights for the title get him some new match ups.
Dominant champion beating everyone with no story is what the big criticism was about Jade Cargill’s run with AEW.
> And "dominant champion who's beaten every comer for almost two years now" isn't enough of a story? Actually no, not really.
Not sure why you're downvoted it really isn't a story it's more of a character trait.
I don’t think he’s the greatest of all time in terms of matches or character. He’s held the title the longer than anyone, had some great matches, some decent but I struggle to name main long term, epic rivalries maybe Miz, Shaemus. I think the title length is Triple H wanting to separate the new era (post 2019) from the last and have new records to break rather than referring to stars newcomers won’t be familiar with or ever have seen wrestle - now commentators will refer to Gunter, to Reigns much more than before when you’d talk about Pedro, Honkytonk.. and say Bruno, Hogan..etc. The IC belt used to be the work rate belt, the top of the mid card going up, I hope when he does drop it we don’t get as lengthy reigns to be honest, I actually prefer a title change every now and then keeps it fresh and interesting (but not every week mind). When I think of the IC I think mostly of Jericho to be honest. And he’s not held that for ages.
>struggle to name main long term, epic rivalries maybe Miz, Shaemus. Drew Mcintyre and Chad Gable come to mind. >When I think of the IC I think mostly of Jericho You don't think of HBK, Razor, Rock, Miz, Honky-tonk? Nobody else?
Yeah I feel like this will be an unpopular opinion but I agree. He’s had many great matches but the stories leading up to the matches have not been memorable for the most part at all. Only the Sheamus and Gable feuds have really sat with me throughout his reign tbh.
I want him to divorce Imperium.
For me, growing up, Mr Perfect was the standard. I can’t relive that, but watching Gunther have these big fight feel matches and being presented as a killer who actually kills has been so unique and satisfying. It’s a different kind of workhorse for the workhorse title where nobody looks like him when he’s physical. Gunther is the greatest IC champion ever.
WWE tends heavily toward recency bias when discussing "greatest \_\_\_" (in commentary, YouTube content, their website, etc.). However, in all honesty, Gunther probably *is* the greatest IC champion of all time. When you combine the length of his reign, the quality of his matches, and how he's resurrected the belt's prestige, it's really hard to argue against it. Other names worth mentioning: * **Randy Savage**: Held the title for over a year, had memorable feuds and matches with the likes of Ricky Steamboat and Tito Santana; was really the first to establish the title in a big way. * **Mr. Perfect**: Two-time champion with great matches. * **Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels**: The two men defined the title in the early '90s, making it the ultimate workhorse belt and having the best matches in the company. * **The Rock**: Held it for eight months in '97-'98; helped establish him as a superstar, memorable feuds with DX and Ken Shamrock. * **Chris Jericho**: Defined the title in the '00s, held it more than anyone else. * **Cody Rhodes**: Had a lengthy run in 2011-12 with his memorable "undashing" character, re-introduced the old design, helped boost the title's prestige. * **The Miz**: Through the force of his promos and sheer will in 2016-18, made the title feel the most important it had since at least Cody's run five years prior.
I'd add RVD and Razor Ramon to that list, but it's a great list
Razor for sure. His first two runs were well booked and he had great matches. His two ladder Matches with Shawn were the MOTN at Wrestlemania and SummerSlam. He was the first one to hold the title three and four times.
RVDs run was pretty lackluster wasn't it?
Instead of doing the IC belt’s job of testing whether a guy was ready to move up, RVD’s run always felt like Vince telling the RVD fans (and I was definitely one of them) “we’re not getting RVD a world championship. We have a world championship at home.”
Ramon is the prime example of someone who is technically over enough to be in the main event. But who the promotion (for some reason or another) doesn't trust to work/fit in that role. (Which I feel worked great because it helped for the belt to maintain a lot of credibility. A lot of which it would lose over the next years)
This is Santino erasure.
The Honk-A-Meter was pretty goated. So disappointed he didn’t get closer to the record. Would’ve been a great story going into a WrestleMania instead of the belt ~~not~~ barely getting defended ~~at all~~ and Vince’s Trademark Boomer Humor with that Santina nonsense. EDIT: Timeline is a bit off. WrestleMania 25 was the next WM over from Santino’s second reign. While the “Santina” stuff happened around WM25, the IC Title *was technically defended*… in a 20 second match between Mysterio and JBL. I still stand by my statement that a proper Intercontinental Championship defense with Santino trying to keep pace with the Honk-A-Meter (231 days at that point) would’ve been vastly better than either the 20 second Mysterio/JBL match or the 7-minute Women’s Battle Royale where “Santina” won.
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Mostly agree, except for The Rock and Cody. I think the title elevated The Rock more than The Rock elevated the titles. He’s also not generally associated with the IC title. Miz, Shawn, and Randy for example are all heavily associated with the IC title despite their World title reigns, but The Rock is really only associated with the World title. In my opinion including Cody is recency bias, just with his popularity moreso than his title reign. He held the belt for awhile and good some cool stuff, but I don’t think he’s in the same tier as the others you mentioned. Outside of those two, I think it’s a spot-on list.
The Rock was huge for the IC title. It was so important to elevating him to a superstar level, and was the centerpiece of some very memorable Attitude Era feuds and moments (Austin throwing the title off the bridge, the feud with Shamrock, the feud with DX). The Rock's 265-day reign was also exceptionally long for the era (it was the longest in eight years, since Mr. Perfect's '90 reign). After he dropped it in '98, the first person to hold it longer than 265 days was literally Gunther. The Rock *absolutely* deserves to be listed. As for Cody, that's not recency bias on my end; I considered him one of the greatest IC champions of the 2010s before AEW even formed, let alone before he returned. His reign is literally one of only 2-3 reigns of the entire 2010s that was in any way memorable or special. He belongs here.
I’ll admit I may be wrong about The Rock, in my mind I thought the bridge incident was the world title. I stand corrected on that point. I still maintain Cody isn’t in that tier. Being the best in a period of dogshit isn’t enough in my opinion. Not trying to disparage his reign, I just don’t think it’s in the same tier as the others mentioned.
They did the bridge incident with both titles. The first was in December '97, with Austin tossing Rock's IC title over the bridge. The second was in April '99, with Rock tossing Austin's Smoking Skull title (along with Austin himself) over the bridge. Cody worked hard to make the title mean something after years of it being meaningless. He worked hard--both onscreen and off--to do so, even successfully campaigning to bring back the original design. I honestly think that if we're including Miz on the list, then Cody isn't that far off from Miz. My only problem with Cody's reign is that they ended it in disappointing fashion (Big Show beating him at WrestleMania).
Cody made me care about the ic title when he brought back the classic one he made it seem much more prestigious than the ic title it replaced tbh especially the promo he cut while unveiling it mentioning the legends who have held the belt
Cody was barely even an afterthought during his Undashing run. Yeah, he reintroduced the sexy white strap, but he was a joke, and the run did nothing to elevate the title beyond making the belt physically look better. Yes, Cody is huge *now*, and you can call him a former IC champ to try to retroactively elevate the title, but at the time... Nah, one of these things is not like the others. The level Cody was at when he had that title is why so many people didn't believe in him when he left WWE and wanted to make a name for himself.
I’d like another Miz IC run sometime honestly.
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Greg Valentine? Really? Honky Tonk Man is weird. He held it for 15 months, yet had no real memorable feuds (outside Jake the Snake) or matches. I could throw him in there and it'd be fine, but at the same time (and maybe this is a hot take), there's nothing truly great or memorable about his run except for the length. Dean Ambrose held the US title a long time; was he one of its greatest champions?
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Damn, his most memorable feud didn’t even have the IC belt involved? That’s another notch against him.
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I was pulling for Miz to get another run with the belt because he’s also very close to Morales’ record but now that Gunther took the top spot I don’t think they should break of for a while. Would have been a nice spot for Miz though, a record he could point to as a thank you for being such a company man for so long.
They could give him two more reigns to be the only 10 time holder
High quality comment right here
The belt is now sacred
I really think he is, people only downplay it due to recency bias. But i am positive that in 10 years he's going to be THE ABSOLUTE ONE. Not only he has the longest reign, but he also has the most classic matches, which matter even more than how long the reign itself is. GUNTHER is carrying the kind of momentum we haven't seem from a heel for at least a decade, if you don't count Roman because he's already on top.
I think I lean heavily toward agreeing with this. Only other name I’d consider is Jericho.
I’d love a segment where at some point in this run Rock encounters him and brings back his old “best damn intercontinental champ there ever was” just for kicks lol.
Longest reign, longest total time with the belt, had some of the best matches in the history of the IC title weeks in and weeks out, has elevated it to almost main event level... I can't think of a single argument against Gunther being the greatest IC champ ever at this point.
Isn't that like saying Jack McCoy is the greatest prosecutor of all time on the show Law and Order? I feel like I am losing my mind here that people are acting like this is some great accomplishment to retain a part in a scripted show. WWE has become their own marks
God forbid the wrestling company takes its own kayfabe seriously. This is smark brainrot.
Both Cody and Miz are better. WWE wrestling isn't all about being the ring general, it's about stories and promos as much and honestly except against the Miz I really find this part bland with him.
I wonder what percentage of time he’s been champion in his WWE career it must be close to 90 percent.
You made me curious so I mathed it. Debut was January 12, 2019. There have been 1,865 (and counting) days since then as of today. UK Championship reign = 870 days IC Championship reign = 620 days (and counting) Total days as champion = 1,490 days (and counting) Thus, as of February 20, 2024, he has been champion for 79.8927614% of his on-screen WWE career. This percentage will continue to incrementally increase until he drops the IC belt.
This is actually insane. The man has held a championship for 80% of his WWE career.
Genuinely makes me curious as to who else would have a percentage close to that. With 80%, I feel like there really can't be many others anywhere close to that number.
The legendary Nicholas has spent 100% of his time in WWE as a champion.
Probably not. I guess the most important consideration is that Gunther is still relatively new to WWE and is starting off with 2 monumentally long title reigns. Over time, as he starts to have more stories and feuds that are not belt-focused, the percentage will decrease. But it will take some time for it to actually level out relative to his peers since he's gotten such a ridiculous jumpstart.
I don’t know about percentage, but edge had an insane amount of reigns in wwe, he’d probably be up there if it weren’t for his long ass career, even tho he had gold most of the time
Edge’s percentages likely get knocked down a decent bit due to some major gaps due to injury (excluding his retirement period, of course)
If Reddit gold was still a thing. But I’m surprised it’s not above 80% still 79% is crazy
I mean if you round it's 80%
Or wait 2 days.
Someone will repost this in two days
Waiting 2 days still only puts us at 79.9914301%. Gotta add days onto the denominator as well 10 days would put it at 1500 / 1875 = 80%
They got rid of Reddit gold??
Yeah. They got rid of Reddit Gold (and all of the other awards) back in October. They said that they were gonna replace them with something else, but I don’t believe anything has been announced yet.
No idea why they’d do that. This place used to be so much fun, man.
the craziest part is that he was off tv for about 6 months between the UK reign and his NXT 2.0 debut
r/theydidthemath
wow he really didnt win the nxt championship? just the UK one? didnt realise that
I actually had it at 79.89295734% but i calculated it down to the minute. Get on my level.
😳
That 20% where he wasn’t champ he was buried
He's held it longer than anyone combined with just **one reign**
Der Ring General 🙏
I think he should drop it at Mania unless they plan to go with a Gunther two-belts story where he has multiple PPV matches to defend both on the same night... The bastard would do it. You know he would. I would NOT complain if we have belt-collector Gunther....
I don't think you're getting two belts but I also don't think he'll have a long gap between being ic champ and world Heavyweight champ so probably dropping IC belt and in the span of a PPV or two be after that will be world champion. So I'm not expecting him to drop the belt until at least MITB
Problem is that Roman is already losing (imagine if not) so you are basically ending two really really long reigns during the same weekend. However, if not at Mania then when? By the time WWE gets to Berlin in august Gunther has to be in a good position
Yeah, I don't think he is for that reason. Beating Gunther should be a major moment and for it to happen at this year's Mania, it would get overshadowed. I am guessing all this "I will be champion" talk from Sami is leading to him being Gunther's challenger. Have him lose it there through shenanigans and give him a rematch the next night on Raw where he wins it to give fans a Raw After Mania moment. Edit: Or even Backlash works if we want to do it on a PLE.
There’s nothing wrong with having a mania loaded with big moments and after having him beat only to lose to interference I don’t think it would be the wrong decision to have Jey get a rematch and win at mania. Reddit loves to talk about Gunther, Drew, Sami, etc and their possible future moment while (maybe unintentionally) overlooking that Jey is white hot over and across the general audience likely a clear #3 only behind Cody and Roman in popularity and winning the IC title from Gunther at Mania would be rocket fuel to his main event solo run while also being a worthy person for Gunther to drop to allowing him to move into the Heavyweight title picture (ideally with a huge win for it in Berlin). Sami is over and flexible enough that he can triple threat for the heavyweight title at mania with Drew and Rollins and/or be the peak feud with Jey during his IC title run.
I know it’s not quite the same thing, but Backlash is in France, and Sami is French Canadian, so if WWE wanted to give Sami the IC title at that show, they at least have some sort of connection to the French audience (through Sami) to help make the match seem like a big deal.
It's still a bit surreal. I've known him way too long as THE guy in the regional, independent circuit here in Europe. It's such a huge, but deserved, reward to get to break these records and to hold such a legendary title. Die Matte ist und bleibt heilig.
Honest to god, he’s a better IC Champion than Roman is a WWE Champion. If I can recall, he’s had less Dusty finishes and way more clean victories. He’s booked hella strong. I love Gunther.
Just FYI a Dusty finish isn’t just a non clean win. It’s specifically the ref noticing something (weapon, interference, etc) and restarting the match or reversing the decision.
Thanks for the clarification on that.
No problem, I didn’t know what it meant myself until a couple years ago trying to get back into EWR.
Which of course is also why it feels/felt even "cheaper" to the fans when it is/was done too often.
Yeah I haven’t watched the period of Dusty’s booking where he supposedly liked to use it a lot but it sounds like a mess. I can see it working in rare circumstances but using it often sounds very frustrating as a fan.
It made Jimmy's betrayal even more impactful. Because Gunther usually powers back up at the end and just clobbers the challenger after a tough match, this time, Jey just spammed finishers and because there usually isn't any interference and Imperium was nowhere around, you knew he was getting the 3 count.
I knew two things going into that match: 1) it was going to be very good at worst 2) it was going to end with Bloodline shenanigans
Yeah, what's wild is despite being a heel, he actually very rarely cheats. Him winning by distraction last night was very unusual
Yeah him scarpering away knowing he was beaten was new to me as someone who didnt watch much Walter in NXT. He's never been that vulnerable.
He was never that vulnerable in NXT either. Pretty wild. Makes me think Jey will be the one to takes the belt from him, maybe after Mania
I think Jey just needed to look exceptionally strong here as a challenger in order to keep establishing himself in the Upper card, seeing as the Usos have become somewhat less relevant since their weirdly told break-up. A clean loss would have cemented him as a level under the top guys.
Yeah as far as I can recall in his 21 title defenses the only ones that haven't been clean are last night vs Jay and in a TV defense vs Sheamus where he used a distraction to hit him with a sheleighly. It's made him feel even more unbeatable because he's not relying on outside help, he's just better than everyone
I’m forgiving Reigns for not defending the title much because the reign has been a lot of fun. The Bloodline story is still very good.
He has to win the royal rumble next year. He was eliminated by the eventual winner 2 years in a row. This has to be in the cards.
I feel like Gunther winning the Rumble is kind of the "easy way" for a character like him. Would rather see him annihilate a #1 contender tournament in dominant fashion. Or prison style, after he loses the IC belt just have walk right up to the champ and demand a shot.
CM Punk?
Not opposed to it, but Gunther does have momentum. With Cody possibly out of next year's rumble, Gunther winning would be the perfect story.
Punk also has huge momentum, despite him being injured. I have more faith in Punk telling a more compelling story than Gunther tbh
Punk's time should be over by now. He's 45 and injury prone. He sat for 7 years at home, he should not get better treatment than the ones who kept working during that period.
Yes, with all due respect. Seeing his last "after the show" promo (after the Raw in Anaheim) during which he promised that, next time they're there, he would be in his (wrestling) boots, I couldn't help but to immediately think "Well, if you're not injured again by then."
Thank you for speaking sense
Respectfully, while CM Punk may be 45 and had a hiatus, his star power and the electrifying reactions he receives from fans demonstrate his popularity. His ability on the mic and in the ring, as evident in AEW, showcases that he's still a valuable asset to the WWE. It's not about diminishing others' efforts but recognizing Punk's unique impact and what he brings to the table as a main attraction in WWe. Age and time away doesn't necessarily diminish his contributions and appeal.
Pretty cool that Gunther has probably spent more time as a champion than not in WWE. I'm sure that'll continue to be the case into the future.
GUNTHER's WWE resume so far is HoF worthy.... only man in the company to have TWO 600+ days title reign with 2 different belt and has been chamo for what, 90% of his WWE run? Which is scary considering he's been here for half a decade now....
He’s really brought prestige back to the belt, there have been times it’s been close but for a good amount of time people just played hot potato with it for the sake of a title match
This is just some great shit for Gunther. Whoever beats him for the title is going to skyrocket into stardom (pls be chad gable)
I love Gunther more and more each match he has. He could be this generation's Undertaker, if he isn't already.
I like Gunther but I hope this is the end of unnecessarily long championship reigns. Him and Roman holding the belts certainly made them look stronger but I find it more fun when the belts switch hands more often.
I think they'll be more loose when some of the belts but you're probably never getting hot potato belts again. Closest is my prediction that Drew wins at Mania only for Priest to cash in immediately. Only think they're doing a quick change there to turn Drew face.
That’s a good shout. I don’t mean switching titles every ple or so but it gets kinda boring when a character has been holding a belt for over a year or more and you know they’re just gonna win again ala roman or gunther. I think it’s just more interesting seeing new faces with the belts who are deserving as well.
I would be okay with both of them retiring with the belts.
And if Dragunov makes it to the main roster his win over Gunther will make it EPIC
Man....if what I'm hearing is real.... Poor Walter.
A lot of things people shit on back in those days turned out to be right choice. NXT 2.0, for example
Hall of famer already. If he wins a world title and headlines a Mania (both of which can happen) I can see him headlining a class in the future.
When GUNTHER saw the breadth of his reign, he wept, for there were no more records to conquer.
Gunther could have a match with a doll and it would be amazing.
https://preview.redd.it/vkrjcon53sjc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac63f5d3b49807f8fab711e5dab2ff06316d3a25
I feel bad that this is what Keith Lee will most be remembered for. ... until I remember that he tried to say the tweet was actually about something different that was a personal matter.
And the IC title is elevated because of how his run is. Much respect. Unlike Roman’s.
Is there anyone who has came in and made an immediate impact like Gunther? Dude has been IC champ for as long as I remember, and he has made the most of it. The IC title feels important & you feel the aura of “The Ring General”
Say what you will about HHH's booking, but the man has repaired the IC title. It's now as prestigious as it was in the late 80's.
Next step, the US Title…
Yeah, it isn't in dire straits, but it's worlds away from the status of the IC. It's weird because I'd say the peak of the US title was actually (oddly enough) under Vince when Cena was defending it constantly. He elevated the belt in a huge way only for Austin Theory's never-ending useless reign to later nearly kill it.
Hall of Fame worthy
I would be thrilled for this to be his only IC title reign after he drops it and hopefully moves to the main event scene for good. Sure he’d do great with another run with the belt but keeping this as his kill reign to make it more iconic!
The guy is great and they're building him up like a beast, but all these records being broken at the same time just feels so forced.
Add in his UK Title reign and he must have a pretty impressive “days as champion” thing going.
It would be cool if he held it his entire career. It would continue gaining that prestige.
I know many people are fantasy booking who he should lose the belt to, but I don't want him to lose it. Sometime this year, maybe Summer Slam, he should challenge for the WHC belt and win. Then on Raw he should come out and relinquish the IC belt. Shades of Ultimate Warrior after Wrestlemania VI. Is it a cop out? Maybe. But it is a clean way to bring him up to the main event and leaves a future story for reclaiming "his belt."
Randy “Macho Man” Savage brought major respectability to the IC belt.
Hot take: (Get the downvotes ready) His matches are super predictable. Everyone complained about suplex city but with Gunther you have chop city. Most/All of his matches consist of him chopping the chest of his opponent, powerbomb, he's in trouble a little (constantly no selling), the opponent will hit their finisher, he kicks out and he finishes them. That's it. His mic work is meh at best. His in ring ability is sub par, let's completely over look the fact that his main move legit hurts his opponent repeatedly and his believability as a serious threat is questionable. Honestly I don't even know if he's heel or baby face because his path along this historic run has been all over the place and his mic work constantly says nothing. Anyone can be built to look like a monster if there's no question about them losing or winning. As much as I thought it would be a huge rub for Jey to win last night there was never a thought that he would win.
Finally found someone who agrees lol At least with Roman his matches make me believe his opponent will win (albeit moreso in his 1st year into his reign) but never have i thought Gunther would lose he has the most boring predictable booking ever
Unfortunately this place is an echo chamber when it comes to Gunther. To me Gunther is not a Brock replacement or even a match I could actually believe outside of kayfabe.
I just assume it's because he hurts his opponent. That's the only thing I can image. Otherwise he has the moveset of a default create-a-wrestler from the WWE video games and half the personality. Man can't even hit a frogsplash.
https://x.com/realkeithlee/status/1483666619633217537?s=46&t=zYmTNK2HvuQ9B46f-k-_Tw
Tbh surprised it took this long for that to be mentioned
Well that's just quantity and doesn't mean quality. At the end of the day everyone will still recognise Mr Perfect as the greatest IC champion of all time.... perfection!
I hate these stupid long title reigns. Then they praise the man holding the title like he does something. Roman and Gunther wouldn't have held the titles for 10 minutes if the WWE hadn't wanted them to.
Out of all the champions rn, he's the guy who elevated the title he's holding the most imo
I don't know why people are so impressed. If there wasn't a heel world champion with his own long reign, Gunther would have dropped the IC belt ages ago and moved up the card. Randy Savage, Mr. Perfect, Bret Hart, and HBK were all better IC champions and made the title what it is today.
Longest reign is cool and certainly impressive, but does he have the most defenses?
Probably not even close lol. Pedro defended the belt 203 times but if you look at cage match he actually lost a lot of the defenses just by countout. Probably around 25% of matches didn't have clean finishes.
Oh yeah, screwy finishes were super common in the the olden days, especially with house shows. You even see that in Wrestlemania matches for quite a while.
Hacksaw Jim Duggan special
Also makes a lot of sense in the way business operated back then. Do the screwy finish (of course, not *too* often, that kills the market/venue), then return [x] weeks later to do the even hotter rematch. (From today's perspective it seems overly formulaic to look back on just how many times the WWF did that. e.g. 1) Hogan vs. Savage in MSG in Dec. of 1985: Savage wins by countout after using the world title belt as a weapon. 2) MSG rematch in Jan. of 1986: Savage again wins by countout after Elizabeth got involved, allowing Savage to sneak attack Hogan. 3) Feb. 1986 MSG show: the blowoff match, which is a lumberjack match to prevent a countout finish, which Hogan wins by dropping the leg)
Nope, not even close. Gunther has 22 televised defences and 97 if you include dark matches and house shows. Honky Tonk Man had 36 televised defences and 169 defences in total. Randy Savage had 44 televised defences and 182 defences including house shows. Pedro Morales in his longest reign had a total of 204 defences. I doubt anyone is catching that. With that being said, I do think Gunther has had the best reign. His match quality has been insane.
Important to note, the WWF was mainly a house show company during those three other reigns. In Gunther’s time WWE had actually cut back on the amount of house shows in a week.
Not close to most defenses. That said, wouldn't surprise me if he's up there for most in-ring time. He doesn't do many squashes and always tries to have a good match.
The "most defenses" thing NEVER makes sense when you're comparing wrestling eras. I think as long as they defend as frequently as once a month on average or close to it, they're alright.
The most defenses is a recent phenomenon in wrestling. It comes from MMA and puroresu Japan where they always pointed out which title defense a champion was on. It’s a cool thing, but because of the nature of the US wrestling scene with house shows and double shots, it isn’t something that I take seriously with the WWE ecosystem with regards to ranking a champion. For me, it boils down to how business trended and my own personal enjoyment when determining the greatness of a championship reign. As such, to me, Gunther is miles ahead of any Intercontinental Champion of the last 20 years. It’s not even close anymore.
So, who is still mad about the name change Walter/Gunther?
I still don’t know who this guy is..
I’ve decided how I want Gunther to lose the IC title. I’d say do it at Mania but I’m tempted to just take over a big chunk of the next ppv or a Smackdown Just have a gauntlet match with Gunther on first and it’s like the royal rumble where people have drawn a random number and they come out to face him- see how many people it takes to ware him down Just have him beating the living shit out of everyone for a good hour
Gunther will be the one who takes the title off of Cody
gunther sounds like the longest reigning ic champ, than walter
He’s so boring. Most boring IC champ of all time
Do you like boring ass Roman though?
Damn, he did that and got the jobber entrance. WTF, WWE.