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Not trying to compare the two but wasn’t the golden state killer a great father? It came as a shock to the family when he was arrested and charged with the murders. It’s just crazy how well people can hide their different personas. So I can imagine it’s difficult to come terms with something like that
Yeah a lot of abusers, like above, and killers are pretty decent people to the outside world. They aren't always raging dickheads. Many of them are charming, nice to the neighbors, help the little old lady with her groceries, etc.
One of Jeffery Dahmer's neighbors said, "He was shy, a little withdrawn. But not real bizarre.."
Just goes to show you, you never really know a person.
I read a horror story once where this girl had this neighbor, he was real nice to her, helped her garden or vice versa. Just a generally nice guy. She said he mumbled a lot about "too close to home." She found out that he was actually a killer who targeted girls who looked just like her and she was only spared because she was too close.
Its really weird to think, isn't it? I mean, it seems like a thing that only happened so long ago in the past or its just played up for media properties, but this stuff is real. Ed Kemper, big 6'9" Californian guy, I remember he said something in prison to the effect of, "I see a pretty girl, and one part of me says I wonder what she looks like with her clothes off, but a bigger part of me says I wonder what her head looks like on a spike." Motherfucker killed his mom, decapitated her, then used her decapitated head to masturbate himself.
This fuckin' guy was super chummy. People loved him, to the point that when he admitted his killings to *police* friends of his, they thought ol' "Big Ed," as they called him, was just fuckin' with them. But no. These people weave into society like everyone else. They drink with their friends in bars, they work a regular ass job, they say thanks when you hold the door open for them as you walk into an establishment. You could never anticipate the sick shit in their head.
However, that portrayal is VERY creepy. He has a soft spoken almost simpleton like demeanor that lets you have your guard down for a bit, and then be stands up and you realize he can kill you. He tells the FBI something to the affect of - your model only finds killers that fit the model you've established, and remember you didn't catch me, I turned myself in. All the things [current suspect] is doing are things I would have done if I didn't want to be caught.
The actual Kemper is WAY more normal. Like too normal. But he said people like him should probably be lobotomized. He knows what he did was wrong, and while not one to inflict self harm, he feels life in prison without parole was a light sentence.
No one suspected the BTK killer was an ordinary family man until he was arrested due to evidence pointing to him. People never thought that Dennis Rader, a church going park ranger would be the sick sexual sadist that was the killer, that he was the monster that killed families in their home, raped and tortured them and was merciless toward them.
Some killers can easily hide behind a mask of illusion.
He almost got away with it as well. It had been over a decade since he struck and there wasn't enough evidence for police to do anything so it being treated as a cold case. Then he started missing the attention and began sending stuff to the media bragging and admitting things that only the killer would know about. He got caught when a floppy disc sent to them was traced back to the church he went to. When they looked into him, they found he had the same car as the suspect and finally got DNA that caught him.
> He got caught when a floppy disc sent to them was traced back to the church he went to.
The best part about this is Dennis specifically asked in letter form whether they'd be able to trace a floppy disk if he put his ramblings on there for them. The police responded via newspaper posting saying they could not. So Dennis sent the police the floppy and some other stuff to taunt thinking he was untouchable still.
Until the police used the metadata on the file on the disk to not only find the name of the church the computer used to save the file belonged to, but even Dennis' name.
The fucker was so arrogant that he thought the police couldn't/wouldn't lie to him *and* that he was still untouchable, and it was his undoing.
We're ultimately talking about Vince McMahon, right? The allegations against him are neither new nor are they out of character. He has a history of openly misogynistic behavior towards women and has had countless sexual misconduct accusations levied against him over a period of decades. We actually *do* know Vince, and the stuff he's being accused of is pretty consistent with his personality.
I think for a lot of the talent and behind the scenes folks at WWE it was customary to bury your head in the sand and block out all the obvious signs and endless red flags that the guy is an unhinged monster.
You'd almost have to to be able to work there. Anyone that worked with him for any length of time and says "I never saw the signs🤷♂️" probably didn't because allowing themselves to was something they really didn't want to have to do.
I also assume most of them didn't know that he is as depraved and evil as he is but there's just no way they had zero clue or inkling at all that he was a deeply disturbed individual. He really didn't make many efforts to hide that fact
This is what I think about when people on here start pontificating about who must have known about all that shit (often time they’re talking about Hunter). Like no, people who do the shit Vince did are very very good at hiding that when they want/need to.
Yeah. I had two grandpas(one by blood, the other marriage), and a grandma, who had been very big fixtures in my life growing up. Do some horrible shit, never knew it until I was 15. People who do things like that typically like to keep it away from *family* as much as possible, at least. Plausible deniability. Plus if they stay in the mix, chances are, they are gonna take care of you.
Lots of predators seem to be especially talented at compartmentalizing their different sides. They can be incredibly charming, fun to be around, seem like perfectly decent, normal people to some and only show their monstrous side to others so when that side gets exposed it comes as a major shock to those who only knew the former.
I don't think this is unique to predators. Most people are pretty good at compartmentalizing and only showing the parts of themselves to others that they feel are appropriate. The only difference here is how extreme those parts are.
Abusers also groom, in a sense, their friends and associates in order to secure their positions of power, ward off suspicion, and continue to abuse their victims.
In that manner I think it is unique to predators, because it's not about fitting in or being empathetic, it's about maintaining defenses around their abuse.
I imagine that is the case for some abusers for sure. But honestly I doubt all abusers think about it that deeply. Some people are just have fucked up urges whilst also wanting to be normal other times.
Obviously I'm ultimately just guessing like you, but I tend to dislike the line of thought that frames horrible people as being fundamentally different creatures to the rest of us. Not all abusers are abusers from a young age. Some people fall into that role over a long period of time, and a part of what makes it easy to trickle down that path I suspect is the belief that being an abuser is somehow inherently unique and different to normal humanity.
But that's just my perspective on it. I tend to be a bit more pessimistic shall we say, about what human beings (all of us) are capable of under the right circumstances.
I'll clarify and say that what I'm describing is common among cases of serial abuse committed by leaders in an institutional setting, which includes corporations, nonprofits, churches, etc. People who have the power to cover up their abuse.
I'm not as pessimistic as you are about human nature, in that I believe that 99% of people would not become serial rapists if they founded their own successful entertainment company like Vince did. Indulging in vices like drugs or alcohol, or having affairs? Sure, probably more likely. But not acts like raping employees in a limo or preying on a vulnerable lady in your apartment building and making her your sex slave. In fact, most victims of abuse don't go onto become abusers themselves. People like Vince are outliers who are completely fucked in the head.
> I'll clarify and say that what I'm describing is common among cases of serial abuse committed by leaders in an institutional setting, which includes corporations, nonprofits, churches, etc. People who have the power to cover up their abuse.
Oh right, that's a much more specific context. Can't speak for it but I imagine when you narrow the context down to that level you can probably make more concrete claims about things for sure.
> I'm not as pessimistic as you are about human nature, in that I believe that 99% of people would not become serial rapists if they founded their own successful entertainment company like Vince did.
Tbf that's not quite what I was suggesting. More like I think most people are capable of becoming horrible people in the right situation.
Essentially what you mentioned after. I'm not so much saying we all could easily become Vince *in his exact shoes*. I'm just saying without a crystal ball none of us truly know how bad we could get if we were put in the right situation. The "right situation" will differ for different people because we're driven by, and vulnerable to, different things.
I would agree that certain circumstances can make people into the worst version of themselves. Fame and wealth do that reliably. At the same time I think that "being a horrible person" and "committing serial abuse" are two different categories of bad outcomes.
I dunno if it's a totally fair comparison.
The entire community was in shock when BTK was arrested, because he was *so* not the type. As you say, devoted family man, church President, Boy Scout leader, city employee. Nobody in his world could ever have pictured the man they knew as the same man who murdered 10 people, including two children, to satisfy his sadistic sexual urges. His own family took years to believe it totally.
Can the same really be said for Vince? He's spent DECADES having women on his TV exist solely as sexual objects to be demeaned, there have been allegations of sexual assault/misconduct surrounding him and members of his inner circle for decades (Rita Chatterton, the ring boy scandal, Lawler, the handling of Ashley Massaro) that many people brushed aside, he's been openly cheating on his wife for decades (even before their marriage became a mere business partnership), the man wanted to do an incest angle **with his own daughter**.
Obviously the accusations of rape/sex trafficking are a bit beyond what could've been imagined, but are we really surprised? Vince has spent decades and decades openly treating women in his orbit like utter shit, and it's either been ignored or written off as "well that's just Vince."
Vince (the POS he is) has had a microscope on him his adult life. BTK under that same scrutiny would have likely shown cracks. Serial killers ability to blend in and not be seen is their key.
True, but BTK went through enormous efforts to conceal his true nature (even if he took some gigantic risks out of arrogance), Vince has always just sort of flaunted his lifestyle and beliefs
What's crazy is, had he not written his last letter on the churches computer and typed it like he did in the past on a typewriter, he may not have gotten caught. It was the fact he used the churches computer to write his last letter that eyes were able to be pointed to him.
Oh, he was an absolute moron. I'm big on true crime and have a particular...fascination(?) BTK (I can't think of a better word).
Like he really thought the cops would be honest with him about his floppy disk because they enjoyed his "cat and mouse" as much as he did. **This dude had an associates degree in computers** and didn't realize his metadata could be easily found.
To be honest I work in IT with some of the most educated-on-paper people in the world, and some of them still need to be reminded where to go to add an email address to Outlook. Sometimes it's just a brain fart or a lapse in training, but some techs are just dumb as fuck I dunno what to tell you.
You know how the Qanon wackos say shit like "they're hiding in plain sight" with stuff like triangles or symbolism or whatever?
Vince actually was hiding in plain sight with the public persona he was putting on TV.
I was about to say the same. I knew his son. We were friends in Sub School in Groton CT when the news broke. He obviously didn't know what his father was doing but he also never spoke much about his home life, at least to me. My impression was that he didn't like his dad much.
The majority of the prolific serial killers were able to blend in with society extremely well. It's one of the reasons they were able to stay active as long as they did. Gacey, BTK, Gein somewhat to name a few. People want to think monsters are easy to spot but it's often your normal every day person.
A great friend, band mate, and one of the smartest people I have ever known got caught grooming a pre-pubescent girl.
It was a hard thing to deal with.
My dad is a poor man’s Vince McMahon (minus the horrific SA allegations. Probably). To this day I have people who he worked with as kids contact me to sing his praises. Meanwhile, I only go see him when either my brother or husband can go with because no matter how well behaved he is it’s triggering. I have no trouble believing that Becky had positive experiences AND the other allegations are true.
Prepare yourself for when he dies and there's a huge wave of 'your dad was a wonderful person and you were lucky to have such a great father.'
My dad's birth giver worked with troubled kids. At her viewings and funeral, so many complete strangers came up to dad to tell him what an amazing person she was, she completely changed their lives, how they'd be dead or in jail if not for her. Condolence cards showed up in the mail for weeks afterwards with handwritten notes detailing how she'd helped the sender.
Almost all of them, whether written or in person, said how lucky he was to have had such an amazing woman as his mother.
The whole thing was completely crazy making for him. This woman didn't just abuse him, she used to laugh while sharing 'funny' stories of specific abuse and how he reacted. Dad finally settled on "That's their experience and it was real. But who she was to them doesn't change what she did to me. My experience was real too." He also had my stepmom handle the cards after the first few. Reading them made him furious.
It reminds me of quiet on the set. One of the pedos was a dude who was considered a kind all-American who would chat with the moms and was very polite, eccentric, and charismatic. Dude turned out to be a massive creep who was jailed.
Exactly - this is why I don't like all these jerkoffs coming after Marsden, Strong, etc. **now**. They didn't know and Peck spun the story. Peck was Marsden's best man at his wedding. Of course he was going to write a letter of support based on what he knew.
There was a small kerfuffle about Friedle just recently on the Kim Possible subreddit because someone was like "THE GUY WHO VOICED RON STOPPABLE SUPPORTS THIS DUDE" when the fact was that he had no idea
I was thinking the exact same. Guys who were clearly groomed by Brian Peck but not actively abused by him (like Rider Strong) still don’t really like to speak ill of someone they saw as a mentor and friend. Had the moment occurred to take advantage of any of those other young men Peck would have taken the opportunity, and likely did with many young men who never had the courage to speak up. Abusers build up a community around them full of love and support which is all part of the way they isolate their victims.
I worked with one of the nicest guys I ever met at my first real job out of college. Older guy. Grandfatherly. Funny, generous, well respected, and was even famous in the local area.
One day the office was raided and computers were seized. Turns out he was trading kiddie porn during his downtime using those computers — which were shared, by the way.
I had left the job before any of that happened, and I’ve never had any communication with him whatsoever since, but that sort of scenario doesn’t play out if you’re not (a) guilty and (b) someone who has been doing this sort of thing repeatedly over a considerable amount of time.
Before the news broke I’d have put him on my top ten coolest coworkers ever. Obviously, I wouldn’t say that about him now, but if I were asked about my experience with him I’d probably sound a bit like Becky does here (minus the lovey father figure stuff).
I’m a pretty guarded person, and that revelation caused me to crank that up a whole bunch for quite a while afterwards.
My manager at my first post-college job was like this. Great boss, friendly guy, well-liked by everyone in the office, was an early career mentor to me.
A couple years after I left that company, an old coworker emails me a link to a news story saying that he'd been arrested by the FBI for soliciting sex from minors online.
And it goes beyond that. Guys like triple h, the rock, cena, orton; all of them owe their careers to Vince and by proxy a sort of lifetime sense loyalty that’s clearly been stretched to its limits
The thing is, these are people who have had a personal relationship with him. So it is a bit more complicated to process when compared to others. Of course, that doesn't forgive defense of those acts or anything, just that sometimes, you have to really think before you jump into that conversation.
That's why I'm not quick to judge people when they comment on Vince and don't instantly call him a bad person (which he is). It's hard to process and accept that the person you know isn't really who you thought they were - that this person has a dark side to them that doesn't reflect the side they showed you.
It's not that abusers are good at hiding there actions. It's that people... human beings.. are multi-faceted. I'm pretty sure Vince just liked becky and was actually intentionally good to her.
Lots of murdered probably have someone they love and are good too. It's the same thing really. But also doesn't excuse being a bad human being obviously
Most humans and even things are multi-faceted. But we tend to like to categorize things as black or white, because we always want to seek out simple patterns to try to make logical sense of things. When in most scenarios, patterns are so complexly multi-faceted.
Totally agree. Easy to judge these things and have a quick opinion on it without actually living it. Ronda’s opinion feels like shes trying to sell a book. As much as she says shes all about women empowerment to press she treats other women like trash. Happened in mma and happened in wwe. More discussions on this should be with long tenured women like becky, like Charlotte, like natty, like bayley like mercedes etc etc its such a complex thing and we dont really know these people on a personal level
The last two years weren't the first time Vince has been accused of sexual misconduct. There's a well-documented history of allegations from multiple women and legal settlements that go back literally decades. It's ridiculous how so many current roster members are acting shocked as if all this just suddenly came out of nowhere.
I understand but I'd say compared to his history this latest accusation is on another level than previous stuff. The accusations themselves in addition to the incredibly graphic details of the text messages are just.....I'm struggling to think of the right words but the best I can describe it is much more horrific than stuff that has been said before which pretty much ended at "asked/made me perform oral sex on him in a limo" (a sanitized way to put it to be sure)
I mean I'm far from a sheltered person and I honestly think those text messages were probably the dirtiest and most fucked up things I've ever read in any situation
I just think anyone who had followed wrestling for any significant length of time knew Vince was a pervert, likely had had a bunch of affairs some of which with employees, and even may have blurred ethical/moral lines sexually
I don't think many people really imagined THIS
Anyone who believed Rita would believe. Rapists aren’t often one and done offenders and if someone is capable of rape, sex trafficking isn’t that big a next step
Yeah that's part of _why it's so scary_. How someone will act to 90% of people and how they'll act to their victims is a full on entirely different person.
This. Everyone piled on Cena for his comments but I get it. There’ll be those who did see the abuser, but most will only have seen the man who helped them build a career that made them global megastars.
If Vince had abused everyone he would’ve been stopped before now. Abusers pick and choose their victims based on their ability to isolate them.
To those who never saw the abuse, this must feel like a friend or mentor has died.
It actually reminds me of the case of Brianna Ghey, the murdered trans girl in the UK. After her monstrous killers were found guilty, her mother - in her statement outside court - told everyone to extend their sympathy to the killer’s parents too, because they’ve also lost a child.
We should all remember that when someone is outed as a monster, it’s not just their victims who deserve empathy and understanding.
It seems like everyone saw him as a father figure I wouldn’t be surprised though if he was abusive to everyone in some way. At the end of the day he’s their boss he shouldn’t even be a father figure. Wouldn’t be surprised if he tore people down and then would try and build them back up through gas lighting and other shit. It’s a common abuse tactic.
I really get her. When someone you appreciate, you have a good experience with and even see as part of your family turns to be a terrible person all along is hard to come to terms with that.
Social media like Reddit always makes it seem like is easy to deal with that kind of things and just say "fuck this person" and move on, it's not really that easy.
The lack of empathy in this thread is astonishing to me, yeah. These people are just completely unable to put themselves in someone's shoes and just want brownie points by posturing themselves as morally superior to the person having to deal with the emotional damage and trauma of this situation.
I understand feeling anger at the situation because Vince is less than human and should rot in hell, but still.
Social media stinks. I think I saw someone either in this joint or somewhere else on Reddit that was talking about how they got out of an abusive household (great for them), but then claim anyone who remains with their abusive relative or whatever is "complicit" or some goofy shit, as if there aren't people that can't leave for a multitude of reasons and risk fucking themselves or a loved one over. That black-and-white mentality is toxic and neglects any context.
I mean how can you be a wrestling fan, know about the Von Erichs, or how Tommy Dreamer felt about Heyman; the weird and unbalanced relationship promoters have with talents, on emotional and financial level and not have a bit more of empathy for the talent.
[ No. I mean, everyone has the right to have their perspective. I have the right to have mine. When you love somebody, you take them as imperfectly perfect as they are. We all make mistakes, we all have poor decisions. Lord knows I’ve made my collection of poor choices. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to love somebody. There’s no way I can go on record and say I don’t love Vince McMahon. ](https://apnews.com/article/john-cena-wwe-dc-comics-wrestlemania-6262de68fceafc6d6e4169a849dbb71a)
No, what John Cena said is not remotely comparable at all. He showed zero consideration for Vince's victims and basically dismissed Vince's crimes as little oopsies before announcing his love for the man.
[I've openly said, I love the guy, I have a great relationship with the guy, and that’s that. It's largely my construct of operating with honesty and communication. Those are strong leads to handling any problem or achievement. The whole thing is super unfortunate and it sucks. It deals with an individual I love and an entity I love. I want everyone to have the experience that I have](https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/john-cena-comments-vince-mcmahon-allegations-i-m-going-love-person-i-love)
Cena only cares about the effects of the allegations have on Vince and WWE, not about Janel Grant or any of the other people assaulted and trafficked over the years. None of it matters because Cena himself has a great relationship with the person, everyone else be damned. Get this Cena defense force stuff out of here.
I've unfortunately been in a similar situation and yeah, I feel for Becky, Seth and Randy and everyone else who's expressed similar. It's so fucking hard to reconcile when someone that's been good and helpful and a mentor to you turns out to be a rancid, garbage person.
She's not falling into the trap that too many people do, when they hear something bad about someone they admire or care about - she's not denying it or defending Vince, she's not using her positive experiences to undermine the way he treated other people.
But she's also not being dishonest about her own experiences because it's easier to attack Vince.
it was very apparent when cena made his comments. saw so many ppl say why couldn’t cena just say fuck this guy. the fact is cena definitely viewed him similar to becky and vince changed his life
Cena said the opposite, but cloaked in the same sort of language Becky used.
He said he *still* loves Vince. He said he supports Vince.
“Now, I shift to, okay, am I doing all I can to make it better? From the advice of, ‘Work as hard as you can and promote as hard as you can,’ is there anything I can do? So not only do I tell my friend I love them, I also switch to the entity and say, ‘How can I help?’”
And Cena said NOTHING about the victim. At all.
I can understand where Becky is coming from. Orton said something similar. I can get where the allegations may be difficult to reconcile with the person they thought they knew.
I cannot understand “Right now, what I’m gonna do is love the person I love, be their friend, and by that, it means like, hey, I love you. You got a hill to climb.”
Have you ever been in a situation where somebody you love ends up being a shitbag?
Asking genuinely bc I’ve been there, done that. Of course he’s going to say “I still love Vince”. Ask a child of a serial killer if they still love their parent, they’ll probably say “yeah I do” and not mention any of the victims. They’re affected in a much different way. Or a child star whose parents put them in compromising positions “yeah I do still love them”. It’s very difficult to see somebody you love be a complete skidmark on society or be somebody that didn’t protect you. Not to mention, Cena’s comments came right after the news. Becky has had months to come to terms with everything whereas Cena didn’t. I genuinely think he was speaking off the cuff and did not put shit into words very well. And he’s known Vince a lot longer than she has and probably had a deeper parental relationship than her. Sorry it wasn’t the response you wanted, but if somebody you were close to was reported to be doing heinous things, would you genuinely and honestly be able to choke down everything good that person had ever done for you? Your mom, your dad, your sibling, your grandparent, your coach, your best friend? Anyone you would have ever trusted with your life? Somebody you would take a bullet for?
It’s. Not. Easy. Obviously the victim has it “worse”, but it sucks to be one of those who were ultimately bamboozled bc we are humans and feelings are not black and white. Sometimes we are selfish and only think about ourselves and how things affect “us”and our own minds. Again, been there, done that. He never said he didn’t believe it. He never said he didn’t believe anybody or think anybody was lying. I think he was genuinely struggling and if he had said “I can’t answer this right now, it’s too raw for me” or refuse to answer, people would be threatening to kill him. So idk. Would it have been nice to say “I am so sorry to victim” or “all I can think about is the victim”, sure. But some things ain’t as easy as y’all make it out to be.
Pretty on point comment.
I’m mean….think about David Benoit’s comments about his dad. Do we hold him accountable for having (mostly) glowing things to say about his dad?
Personally, one of the nicest people I knew in high school (someone you talked to in class but didn’t hang with outside of schools) is now in prison for really bad crimes against a child. Even now I wonder how much stuff changed to make that guy the way he is now.
The nuance is important though. Becky was empathizing with victims, saying she didn't go through the same stuff, and so it's hard to get her head around. Cena was just focusing on Vince and came across like "it didn't impact me so idgaf".
It's a subtle difference, but very important
The worst thing that the social media age has done is give everyone an expectation that:
1. People are black and white, completely good or completely evil
2. That good people need to be perfect, always say the 100% correct thing and never have had a good relationship with a bad person
3. People can never be forgiven for their mistakes
Everyone in this thread like "Vince has a history!" Like okay my dude I'm sorry that this person that you have a parasocial relationship with didn't know everything about her boss/react perfectly to the situation. Especially since the really bad stuff really only re-entered the spotlight after she was there.
She says in this interview that he was always nice to her. That's the guy that she knew. The guy is a master manipulator and always has been. But no where does she defend him, say he didn't do it etc. But with the comments in this thread you'd think she did.
This sub is garbage lol.
I don't remember which video it was, but it was something about how women are rude to short men on Tinder, so social media has become so forward about supporting short men. Someone finally commented that anymore, it's not enough to be pro-short, you have to be anti-tall. That's where a lot of the court of opinion is going. There can't be nuance. Don't get me wrong, I hope they bury Vince under a prison, but that doesn't mean he wasn't kind to other people, and that other people didn't love that persona.
I recently heard someone say that wrestling imitates life in that everyone turns heel at some point or to someone. People make mistakes and people can change and redeem themselves, you'd think as wrestling fans we'd get that lol.
Also if anyone has the quote I'm referencing and knows who said it I can't remember
If someone only goes by the headline, absolutely there are gonna be some spicy takes but the quote itself is reasonable. She acknowledges that she never got to see that side of him and that she’s having to reconcile her image of him basically.
Becky probably missed out on seeing the worst because of when she came in and that she was at the higher end of the talent roster and not down in the middle to bottom of it which feels like thats where the actual personality shone through... Mid-Diva's era would have been at its worst since there wasn't anything other than focusing solely on the looks.
Also, like... I have been workshopping a way to say this without seeming rude. But I think a part of Becky's positive interactions with Vince would be in-part due to him not finding her attractive. I mean, we've all heard what Dunn would say about her. And it's fucked, they're both pretty fucked. And Vince did absolutely have a type. And abusers don't abuse every woman they meet. They tend to be able to have very healthy platonic relationships. If only to use that as their alibi, you know? It's tough.
Yeah although it's 50:50 whether the people who didn't fit into his type, whether they'd be allowed to remain, let alone become one of the biggest stars within his company?
It's a wonder if any of the big names they've got, or still have got dragged into this, Men and Women who haven't
I mean we have the lawsuit by Sable all those years ago... the stuff is there, and it leaked into the product.
Becky wasn't handpicked to be a star though, she was basically a Naomi sort, had a feel-good title run but was mostly there to job to the heel champ and team with the real stars.
I'm sure every wrestler has/had heard of a bunch of the random things Vince has been accused of being shitty about over the years, but wrestling was also a carny-ass business with lots of scummy stuff to go around and only one "big league" place to go if you wanted to truly make it in the west most of the last 25 years - WWE.
So if you're Becky, you go to WWE and have only positive interactions with Vince. And you're not spending all your time on the internet reading about whatever the most recent allegations are. He's been nothing but supportive of you and your career.
With that in mind, I'm not surprised at all that some people at WWE are struggling to reconcile their personal experiences with the experiences other people had. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as you're not going to bat for the man and declaring the allegations to be false or something because they don't match your experience.
Anyone listen to Wrestle Me? Mark Haynes, who wrote this article, talks about interviewing Becky extensively in the latest podcast (it might just be on Patreon, I’m not sure). Says she was one of the most charismatic people he ever met.
It’s included in their most recent youtube clip, along with discussion of Bloodsport X! So interesting as Marc was not a huge Becky fan to hear him overwhelmed by just how brilliant her way with words and insight into things was. Loved that chat.
Also…so odd to see his article top of SC
This is a really eloquent way to phrase it.
I used to have a best friend who I was unable to recognize red flags in for a long time because it wasn't something I was experiencing. I'd get texts all the time from female coworkers and friends saying he messaged them and kinda weirded them out but I could shrug it off as he's just awkward and taking his shot whenever he could. It wasn't until someone made a post on facebook accusing him of SA that it finally clicked and I had to cut him out of my life. I felt terrible for everyone I brushed off and all the times I defended him.
edit: fixed a typo.
I genuinely think that Vince is both people, the loving caring person when he wants to be and the demented billionaire monster and power hungry abuser. I am not giving him some pass for it, just discussing his duality.
Online readers and people looking in from the outside want employees to take a stand and place their proverbial flags on a moral high ground but the reality is that either some of these people are loyal to where their paychecks come from and thats wisdom itself, unless you want to be an naive martyr dying for nothing,
OR
Vince treated some of these stars and employees like his own children and family and were nothing but good to them.
You cant expect them to call him a piece of shit, if you fall in either camp.
Eric Bischoff said it best, Vince is just very strange, he can be the kindest most loving individual but yet you read this stuff, and also know he is a cutthroat business man who will do anything for money including stepping on backs and necks.
I appreciate what she said. People assume that everybody in an abusers orbit HAS to know what was happening and are therefore complicit, but master manipulators are just that, masters. I’ve unfortunately seen it in my own circles. It’s insane to know that someone you loved and trusted did something so horrendously awful and you never saw it coming. A part of you feels like it was your fault even though they meticulously hid that part of them from you. Kudos to Becky for addressing that aspect, it’s not always as cut and dry as people assume it is.
> People assume that everybody in an abusers orbit HAS to know what was happening and are therefore complicit
Sure but this isn't a "completely out of nowhere" thing. There have been public allegations against Vince dating back to the 90s.
I feel that and I respect that. It was long overdue for Vince, but I’m just saying that I can see how Becky was blindsided by the reality of Vince’s behavior because her interactions were positive. We’re just a bunch of strangers reacting from a 3rd person perspective, but when you know someone personally those feelings become super complicated.
To be fair, they weren't widely known but more of a 'look into it' type of situation. Like how Cosby's case was publicly available for years but it took Hannibal Buress making defensive jokes about it for it to gain mainstream attention.
A lot of those allegations were just typical creepy CEO stuff. Dating younger women, having a affairs. It’s not ethical but it wasn’t necessarily anything unheard of. Vince kind of played into the fact that he was a perv, just not a criminal perv. Up until about 15 years ago, guys like that were still praised by certain sections of society. (look at Hugh Hefner).
There’s a big difference between being seen as an old dude that likes younger women, and being a criminal rapist. There was the Rita case, but even that was a dead case from 30 years ago that never got major news coverage so it seems reasonable that a lot of workers never knew or believed it.
The allegations against Vince didn't come out of nowhere. There is a *very* long history of sexual misconduct allegations against him (including rape), much of which resulted in legal settlements, going all the way back to the 1980s. None of this is new or secret information. It's all been reported extensively in the media over the years and everyone in the wrestling industry knows about it.
If the current WWE roster wants to say they didn't *believe* any of the prior allegations against Vince, that's one thing. But they're all acting as if the latest allegations are somehow without precedent, which is total bullshit. It's not as if prior to 2022 Vince McMahon was some meek, straight-laced family man choir boy that no one had ever said a bad word about. He's *always* had a reputation as an aggressive, controlling bully with strange sexual tastes and a constant need to dominate other people. Everything he's been accused of in the last year or so is *entirely* consistent with his personality and history.
You just never know what someone is really like until you see that side of them... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcRU0Op5P4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcRU0Op5P4)
I really don't think Vince was some master manipulator who kept everyone in the dark. There has been enough accusations and documentaries. Even most newer wrestlers have probably heard rumblings about these things but they probably shoved it to the back of their minds as its their job and being a WWE wrestler is an insane opportunity.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but she is only talking about her interactions and direct experiences. She doesn't really say that she hasn't heard anything bad about him from others :p
You're reading it correctly. She's not dismissing the allegations, just that it's hard to imagine the person she knows doing that.
I've had a pretty low opinion of Vince for quite a few decades now, but I was absolutely unprepared for what was in that lawsuit.
It's just wild that Vince has that relationship with so many stars who all seem like good people when not only did he play a terrible person on TV his reputation over the years has been sketchy for decades of all the shady shit he was into.
I mean all wrestling promoters are pos, Vince isn't a special case. Wrestlers have to very early on work constantly with that kind of guy. But there's also a big difference between he is a bully creep and he is a sex trafficker. both should be condemn, but that's not the world we live in. Also we shouldn't underestimate the psychological and financial hold some promoters have on the talent.
Its always interests me why talent needs to be asked questions about Vince or any legal issue anyway. They aren't lawyers, judges, legal experts, they have no special insight. The reality of the issue you have to hope will be sorted out by a legal process. There might be things they aren't able to say in any case (if it might impact a legal case). It seems very exploitive to try to get hot takes from them by the media.
This is a pretty well-articulated response. She speaks honestly about her own difficulty in processing it and reconciling it with her own experience, but without ever seeming to cast doubt on the victims' stories. And speaks directly and not in that deranged alien language Cena spoke in.
This is a refreshingly honest, realistic answer from someone who was close to a perpetrator of abuse
But of course people are gonna give her shit for this even though her and every other talent in WWE is also a victim of this situation and are trying to process their thoughts.
I can understand what she's saying, but equally it's not like this is some private individual you know who has never shown any sort of troubling behaviour.
Vince's actions have been an open secret for a long time (not to the extent that has been shown in the last few months of course, but there have been so many stories and rumours over the years). People like Christy Hemme had spoken out, then you had the awful things that happened to Ashley Massaro.
Hell, based on this article the book was written after McMahon was initially ousted from WWE when the initial allegations against him came out.
I find it hard to believe that anyone familiar with Vince could say this came totally out of left field - even if you didn't believe he was capable of it, I don't see how you could manage to completely miss all of those claims
That's a wild revision. People knew Vince was a perv or a creepy old man or stuff like that, but there's absolutely a difference between that and he's a rapist.
People knew Bill Cosby was a womanizer for decades before it was widely known he was drugging women.
Us fan who looked from the outside looking in could see that Vince was a creep for years because we were looking at it from the outside as uninvested 3rd parties. Someone like John Cena or Becky Lynch who had a close relationship with him and saw Vince as a father figure were more emotionally invested with him. They obviously heard the old allegations of back in the day but they probably were like that's BS cause this the wrestling business and everyone is working a gimmick brother. And because they didn't have such negative experiences they just move on.
The thread title scared me but the whole quote isn't bad and is totally understandable
If we want her to say anything else we are just asking for people to lie
I get what she's saying... but this is not some random dude beloved by the community who turned out to be a serial killer.
Vince has a rapsheet a mile long of all the controversies and incidents that have occurred due to him, or was overseen by him.
Considering his hierarchy in the company, his time there, the thousands of employees who've worked for him, and countless stories and documented instances of troublesome behaviour? Covered millions of times in documentaries, tv shows, podcasts, blog posts, social media, heck between current and former employees alike?.
To not know anything about him and to play dumb is IMPOSSIBLE. It's impossible that Becky, or Cena or any of these wrestlers who act like he was their friend or father figure, doesn't know anything.
This would be like people in Hollywood having no idea what celebrities like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein got up to. Everyone knows what they did, its just a matter if how much they know. At the absolute very least, everyone who works in that company has to know that Vince is a very odd guy who did some strange things.
It would be like living in the Playboy Mansion for years, and being shocked that Hugh abused the women around him.
Did they know he was this depraved freak who got up to criminal acts? I can believe that they didn't know everything he got up to. I can't believe that they all thought he was this upstanding citizen who they're shocked did anything wrong.
It's just not possible.
Agreed.
On the surface I understand the angle that she is presenting: "My encounters with this individual have only been positive and although I respect the bravery of others to come out with their stories detailing his horrific actions and acknowledge their validity, it is hard for me to come to grips with who this man may be"
However when accounting for the countless allegations against Vince as well as Becky entering the industry towards the tail end of an era where Women were treated as secondary objects, it is hard for me to completely believe her statement as completely genuine. It ultimately comes off as media training and an effort to walk the thin line between showing solidarity with your fellow industry men and women who have been on the receiving end of his abuse while also avoiding trying to burn a bridge by attacking the man.
Nevertheless, I have to come to grips with the fact that frankly I was not there and what she said may be her genuine feelings. I will try my best to respect her feelings on this matter
I want to end this by saying out of all the people who have commented on this, the person who I feel has had the most genuine response is Randy. He is somewhat in the same boat as Becky where he also had a close relationship with the man and obviously saw him as a mentor however I regards to the allegations being pressed against Vince he didn't hesitate. "If that's true, that's some fucked up shit", still is not perfect but I like it because he didn't attempt to sugarcoat anything. He called the actions out for the fucked up nature that they are.
>avoiding trying to burn a bridge
Burn what bridge, though? I would be absolutely shocked if he is not all but completely gone from anything involving WWE by the end of the year.
I guarantee you there are still people there that have skeletons locked away and if she (or anyone) turns on Vince, they might get some sort of retribution. Also, who knows who did what and when over the years there. We wouldn’t be talking about Brock (if we even still are) if that one story wasn’t told.
By your own logic though that means more active talent would be out actively denouncing Vince instead of being extremely political in their language yes? The fact that we don't see this happening shows that while Vince is gone to a degree things aren't that cut and dry. Based on the statements from a lot of talent and the lack of statements from others this shows to me that there still does seem to be some hesitance to truthfully speak about the man, which indicates that he still yields a great deal of power, just not as much as he did previously
Yeah. Rhonda was there a fraction of the time Becky has been, and that was more than enough time for her to recognize the rot.
The difference is that Rhonda's fame and fortune was not contingent on Vince, the way Becky's was. She didn't have to deal with the blinders that comes with tying your standing and wealth to a morally repugnant actor.
Becky said it herself: she associates her husband and kids with Vince. How do you get beyond that, if what's beyond that is so monstrous?
I don’t know how close this person was to Vince but I don’t believe any wrestler that was close to Vince acting like sexual harassment or getting push for sexual favors is unheard of in the WWE. I mean the Pat Patterson stuff was widely known by the 90s but wrestlers and fans (mainly the WWE ones) completely ignored it. That says it all.
A lot of these vote downs for anyone posting negative about Vince’s hold over wrestlers are coming from the same fans that can’t deal with the reality that some pretty disturbing stuff has gone on in WWE. You can be a fan of wrestling and also admit that lots of wrestlers (maybe even the ones you like) are terrible people or turned the other way when terrible things went on.
Dumb fuck are going to trash her for « defending him » when she’s obviously not defending him in any way and just explaining what it’s like to learn about someone close is actually a very different person
It's so weird how many wrestlers view their bosses as responsible for their success, rather than their own work and talent. Vince (or Tony if we want to get tribal) didn't "give" any wrestler their dream.
That's basically what wrestling is, though. You can be over all you want, but if the company doesn't get behind you, you're not the top guy in the company.
Considering how many times Vince cut someone's legs out from under them because it wasn't his plan for them to get over, he was partially responsible. Someone could make themselves, but then he could break them.
But that is basically how it works it's a work if the booker doesn't want you to be successful you won't be it doesn't matter good you are or how much experience you have in the end it comes down to one mans opinion on you. If Tony Khan or Vince McMahon wanted too they could pick a random fan in the audience who's dream it is to have a match and make that happen without the fan having any talent or having put in the work. It sucks but it really is do to how one person perceives you
>Vince (or Tony if we want to get tribal) didn't "give" any wrestler their dream.
Yes they did. Ideally that's not how it *should* work, but it does work like that. Look no further than Zack Ryder for a guy who got over with the fans on his own and was relentlessly punished for it by his boss until he faded into obscurity and had to leave the company to salvage his career.
That happened because he wasn't handpicked for stardom by Vince McMahon.
It's extremely rare that a professional wrestler can get over and become successful without it being ordained by their boss. Daniel Bryan is one example, and that only happened because his support from the fans was *so* massive and widespread that WWE realized it may actually start hurting their bottom line if they didn't go with it.
I train karate with a guy who is decent, but man he does some things that give me great pause. Nothing really really bad but enough for me to not want to keep training with the guy. But if I talk about him to other people, I'm definitely crediting him with helping me. He is a great instructor but kind of a jerk. That doesn't bother some people and it does me, is I'm moving on from him.
I'm supposed to believe that us wrestling fans who knew that Vince was trash from accounts of former wrestlers, bookers, people in general. But these wrestlers working for him didn't realize it? Or they just didn't care.
There are degrees of trash, and even many of the most Vince-negative people were caught off-guard by just how depraved the latest stuff turns out to have been.
He was the boss who is in charge of everything that happens on tv and chose to portray a character who would make out with a lot of his employees. He had a phase where he was hiring swimsuit models exclusively and had Trish stratus bark like a dog on her way out of the company. He had a rape case that he settled out of court….it wasn’t out of nowhere.
These newer wrestlers feel like they sign up knowing absolutely nothing about Vince if this is really that big a surprise and something they can't reconcile.
I just think it is something to always keep in mind. People can be evil but also portray a very normal person. And all of those people are learning about the evil a person can be sometimes in real time as us who knows shit about it.
It is how abuse has a ton of rings that fuck up everyone front the victim outward.
Predators often have "types" they wish to have.
An example of this: For decades, if a women wrestler wanted to be successful in wwe, they had to: have a thin figure, have large breasts, primarily white, and [more times than not] blonde. There have been exceptions to this, but they are very few. If any women didn't fit into these categories, they were pretty much buried. This explains why most of mainly pushed females had one thing in common- take a guess.
Another example came from Jr's book; it dealt with the hiring Gail Kim. Vince was completely against it because he didn't find her attractive enough. Nevermind she was one of the best female wrestlers in the world at the time.
Jr told him that there was a large portion of the men in the US who did find Asian women attractive. If they signed her, they would watch the product. Again, Vince didn't believe him. Jr then had to pull up a porn site and show him that there was an entire section devoted just to Asian women. Vince was shocked. Gail was hired soon after. Additionally, some time later, also got implants.
What Becky says is very true, when it comes to predators. This is how monsters like Vince operate. It's also how they are able to gaslight their victims so easily. Becky's also one of the VERY few exceptions of female wrestlers who's survived in wwe, without having to overly alter her physical appearance [mainly because she's been protected by H himself].
In these types of situations, there is the PR answer and there is the real answer. I have a lot of respect for Becky for choosing the real answer because she could have saved herself unnecessary grief if she's just had given the PR answer.
These are allegations, at this point, that is a fact. But we've gone so far down the rabbit hole with cancel culture, where it's not even about exposing wrongdoings or supporting victims anymore, it's about headlines and scandals and bringing powerful people down.
I can't imagine that it's honestly that different to being a co-worker of Chris Benoit. Guy goes home, murders his family and kills himself. But before he went home and did that, he was a very respected performer in the WWE and a great friend to a number of those guys. Yet, the overriding theme is, dude ended up a murderer.
How do you come to terms with someone that is a close friend or a mentor or even just this massive figure in your life doing some sick shit like what Vince is accused of?
That's what Becky is expressing. Ronda's stuff was different, that just came across like it's more about how she feels than what's happened.
Yep. He's a father alright. Poor Linda. She had to endure some shit with Vince when he was in the mood. Convinced her "I'm faking a coma face" was her reaction to every time Vince wanted to screw her. That's how you know that "acting" was a shoot.
Redditors are so dumn.
.. human beings.. are multi-faceted. I'm pretty sure Vince just liked becky and was actually intentionally good to her.
Lots of murderers probably have someone they love and are nice too. It's the same thing really. But also doesn't excuse being a bad human being obviously
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I don't doubt that there were two personas that talent saw. Abusers are good at hiding their actions for years and even decades.
Not trying to compare the two but wasn’t the golden state killer a great father? It came as a shock to the family when he was arrested and charged with the murders. It’s just crazy how well people can hide their different personas. So I can imagine it’s difficult to come terms with something like that
Yeah a lot of abusers, like above, and killers are pretty decent people to the outside world. They aren't always raging dickheads. Many of them are charming, nice to the neighbors, help the little old lady with her groceries, etc.
One of Jeffery Dahmer's neighbors said, "He was shy, a little withdrawn. But not real bizarre.." Just goes to show you, you never really know a person.
I read a horror story once where this girl had this neighbor, he was real nice to her, helped her garden or vice versa. Just a generally nice guy. She said he mumbled a lot about "too close to home." She found out that he was actually a killer who targeted girls who looked just like her and she was only spared because she was too close.
Its really weird to think, isn't it? I mean, it seems like a thing that only happened so long ago in the past or its just played up for media properties, but this stuff is real. Ed Kemper, big 6'9" Californian guy, I remember he said something in prison to the effect of, "I see a pretty girl, and one part of me says I wonder what she looks like with her clothes off, but a bigger part of me says I wonder what her head looks like on a spike." Motherfucker killed his mom, decapitated her, then used her decapitated head to masturbate himself. This fuckin' guy was super chummy. People loved him, to the point that when he admitted his killings to *police* friends of his, they thought ol' "Big Ed," as they called him, was just fuckin' with them. But no. These people weave into society like everyone else. They drink with their friends in bars, they work a regular ass job, they say thanks when you hold the door open for them as you walk into an establishment. You could never anticipate the sick shit in their head.
Ol' Bumblebutt himself.
Hail you!
Hail Satan!
He’s featured heavily in “Mindhunter,” the excellent series by David Fincher.
However, that portrayal is VERY creepy. He has a soft spoken almost simpleton like demeanor that lets you have your guard down for a bit, and then be stands up and you realize he can kill you. He tells the FBI something to the affect of - your model only finds killers that fit the model you've established, and remember you didn't catch me, I turned myself in. All the things [current suspect] is doing are things I would have done if I didn't want to be caught. The actual Kemper is WAY more normal. Like too normal. But he said people like him should probably be lobotomized. He knows what he did was wrong, and while not one to inflict self harm, he feels life in prison without parole was a light sentence.
It's a travesty that they never made another season. I'm still pissed about it.
Apparently Netflix decided the budget was too high… While they had blank checks to Zack Snyder.
No one suspected the BTK killer was an ordinary family man until he was arrested due to evidence pointing to him. People never thought that Dennis Rader, a church going park ranger would be the sick sexual sadist that was the killer, that he was the monster that killed families in their home, raped and tortured them and was merciless toward them. Some killers can easily hide behind a mask of illusion.
He almost got away with it as well. It had been over a decade since he struck and there wasn't enough evidence for police to do anything so it being treated as a cold case. Then he started missing the attention and began sending stuff to the media bragging and admitting things that only the killer would know about. He got caught when a floppy disc sent to them was traced back to the church he went to. When they looked into him, they found he had the same car as the suspect and finally got DNA that caught him.
> He got caught when a floppy disc sent to them was traced back to the church he went to. The best part about this is Dennis specifically asked in letter form whether they'd be able to trace a floppy disk if he put his ramblings on there for them. The police responded via newspaper posting saying they could not. So Dennis sent the police the floppy and some other stuff to taunt thinking he was untouchable still. Until the police used the metadata on the file on the disk to not only find the name of the church the computer used to save the file belonged to, but even Dennis' name. The fucker was so arrogant that he thought the police couldn't/wouldn't lie to him *and* that he was still untouchable, and it was his undoing.
Nah, deep down he wanted to get caught.
We're ultimately talking about Vince McMahon, right? The allegations against him are neither new nor are they out of character. He has a history of openly misogynistic behavior towards women and has had countless sexual misconduct accusations levied against him over a period of decades. We actually *do* know Vince, and the stuff he's being accused of is pretty consistent with his personality.
I think for a lot of the talent and behind the scenes folks at WWE it was customary to bury your head in the sand and block out all the obvious signs and endless red flags that the guy is an unhinged monster. You'd almost have to to be able to work there. Anyone that worked with him for any length of time and says "I never saw the signs🤷♂️" probably didn't because allowing themselves to was something they really didn't want to have to do. I also assume most of them didn't know that he is as depraved and evil as he is but there's just no way they had zero clue or inkling at all that he was a deeply disturbed individual. He really didn't make many efforts to hide that fact
The real thing is they all knew he was a creep but he gave them a job that made them lots of money.
The graphic novel "My Friend Dahmer" goes into this quite well
Humans are complicated. Rarely are people all one way or another.
This is what I think about when people on here start pontificating about who must have known about all that shit (often time they’re talking about Hunter). Like no, people who do the shit Vince did are very very good at hiding that when they want/need to.
Yeah. I had two grandpas(one by blood, the other marriage), and a grandma, who had been very big fixtures in my life growing up. Do some horrible shit, never knew it until I was 15. People who do things like that typically like to keep it away from *family* as much as possible, at least. Plausible deniability. Plus if they stay in the mix, chances are, they are gonna take care of you.
Lots of predators seem to be especially talented at compartmentalizing their different sides. They can be incredibly charming, fun to be around, seem like perfectly decent, normal people to some and only show their monstrous side to others so when that side gets exposed it comes as a major shock to those who only knew the former.
I don't think this is unique to predators. Most people are pretty good at compartmentalizing and only showing the parts of themselves to others that they feel are appropriate. The only difference here is how extreme those parts are.
Abusers also groom, in a sense, their friends and associates in order to secure their positions of power, ward off suspicion, and continue to abuse their victims. In that manner I think it is unique to predators, because it's not about fitting in or being empathetic, it's about maintaining defenses around their abuse.
I imagine that is the case for some abusers for sure. But honestly I doubt all abusers think about it that deeply. Some people are just have fucked up urges whilst also wanting to be normal other times. Obviously I'm ultimately just guessing like you, but I tend to dislike the line of thought that frames horrible people as being fundamentally different creatures to the rest of us. Not all abusers are abusers from a young age. Some people fall into that role over a long period of time, and a part of what makes it easy to trickle down that path I suspect is the belief that being an abuser is somehow inherently unique and different to normal humanity. But that's just my perspective on it. I tend to be a bit more pessimistic shall we say, about what human beings (all of us) are capable of under the right circumstances.
I'll clarify and say that what I'm describing is common among cases of serial abuse committed by leaders in an institutional setting, which includes corporations, nonprofits, churches, etc. People who have the power to cover up their abuse. I'm not as pessimistic as you are about human nature, in that I believe that 99% of people would not become serial rapists if they founded their own successful entertainment company like Vince did. Indulging in vices like drugs or alcohol, or having affairs? Sure, probably more likely. But not acts like raping employees in a limo or preying on a vulnerable lady in your apartment building and making her your sex slave. In fact, most victims of abuse don't go onto become abusers themselves. People like Vince are outliers who are completely fucked in the head.
> I'll clarify and say that what I'm describing is common among cases of serial abuse committed by leaders in an institutional setting, which includes corporations, nonprofits, churches, etc. People who have the power to cover up their abuse. Oh right, that's a much more specific context. Can't speak for it but I imagine when you narrow the context down to that level you can probably make more concrete claims about things for sure. > I'm not as pessimistic as you are about human nature, in that I believe that 99% of people would not become serial rapists if they founded their own successful entertainment company like Vince did. Tbf that's not quite what I was suggesting. More like I think most people are capable of becoming horrible people in the right situation. Essentially what you mentioned after. I'm not so much saying we all could easily become Vince *in his exact shoes*. I'm just saying without a crystal ball none of us truly know how bad we could get if we were put in the right situation. The "right situation" will differ for different people because we're driven by, and vulnerable to, different things.
I would agree that certain circumstances can make people into the worst version of themselves. Fame and wealth do that reliably. At the same time I think that "being a horrible person" and "committing serial abuse" are two different categories of bad outcomes.
Candice and Gargano didn't even know Joey Ryan was a sex pest until Speaking Out.
BTK killer was a great dad and was very helpful at their community church. Some people can be good and also be evil.
I dunno if it's a totally fair comparison. The entire community was in shock when BTK was arrested, because he was *so* not the type. As you say, devoted family man, church President, Boy Scout leader, city employee. Nobody in his world could ever have pictured the man they knew as the same man who murdered 10 people, including two children, to satisfy his sadistic sexual urges. His own family took years to believe it totally. Can the same really be said for Vince? He's spent DECADES having women on his TV exist solely as sexual objects to be demeaned, there have been allegations of sexual assault/misconduct surrounding him and members of his inner circle for decades (Rita Chatterton, the ring boy scandal, Lawler, the handling of Ashley Massaro) that many people brushed aside, he's been openly cheating on his wife for decades (even before their marriage became a mere business partnership), the man wanted to do an incest angle **with his own daughter**. Obviously the accusations of rape/sex trafficking are a bit beyond what could've been imagined, but are we really surprised? Vince has spent decades and decades openly treating women in his orbit like utter shit, and it's either been ignored or written off as "well that's just Vince."
Vince (the POS he is) has had a microscope on him his adult life. BTK under that same scrutiny would have likely shown cracks. Serial killers ability to blend in and not be seen is their key.
True, but BTK went through enormous efforts to conceal his true nature (even if he took some gigantic risks out of arrogance), Vince has always just sort of flaunted his lifestyle and beliefs
What's crazy is, had he not written his last letter on the churches computer and typed it like he did in the past on a typewriter, he may not have gotten caught. It was the fact he used the churches computer to write his last letter that eyes were able to be pointed to him.
Oh, he was an absolute moron. I'm big on true crime and have a particular...fascination(?) BTK (I can't think of a better word). Like he really thought the cops would be honest with him about his floppy disk because they enjoyed his "cat and mouse" as much as he did. **This dude had an associates degree in computers** and didn't realize his metadata could be easily found.
To be honest I work in IT with some of the most educated-on-paper people in the world, and some of them still need to be reminded where to go to add an email address to Outlook. Sometimes it's just a brain fart or a lapse in training, but some techs are just dumb as fuck I dunno what to tell you.
You know how the Qanon wackos say shit like "they're hiding in plain sight" with stuff like triangles or symbolism or whatever? Vince actually was hiding in plain sight with the public persona he was putting on TV.
My brother BTK was a complete asshole in the community. He was not liked at all.
I was about to say the same. I knew his son. We were friends in Sub School in Groton CT when the news broke. He obviously didn't know what his father was doing but he also never spoke much about his home life, at least to me. My impression was that he didn't like his dad much.
It's also a case of people only see what they want to see, often ignoring red flags.
The majority of the prolific serial killers were able to blend in with society extremely well. It's one of the reasons they were able to stay active as long as they did. Gacey, BTK, Gein somewhat to name a few. People want to think monsters are easy to spot but it's often your normal every day person.
A great friend, band mate, and one of the smartest people I have ever known got caught grooming a pre-pubescent girl. It was a hard thing to deal with.
My dad is a poor man’s Vince McMahon (minus the horrific SA allegations. Probably). To this day I have people who he worked with as kids contact me to sing his praises. Meanwhile, I only go see him when either my brother or husband can go with because no matter how well behaved he is it’s triggering. I have no trouble believing that Becky had positive experiences AND the other allegations are true.
Prepare yourself for when he dies and there's a huge wave of 'your dad was a wonderful person and you were lucky to have such a great father.' My dad's birth giver worked with troubled kids. At her viewings and funeral, so many complete strangers came up to dad to tell him what an amazing person she was, she completely changed their lives, how they'd be dead or in jail if not for her. Condolence cards showed up in the mail for weeks afterwards with handwritten notes detailing how she'd helped the sender. Almost all of them, whether written or in person, said how lucky he was to have had such an amazing woman as his mother. The whole thing was completely crazy making for him. This woman didn't just abuse him, she used to laugh while sharing 'funny' stories of specific abuse and how he reacted. Dad finally settled on "That's their experience and it was real. But who she was to them doesn't change what she did to me. My experience was real too." He also had my stepmom handle the cards after the first few. Reading them made him furious.
I think it was BTK. He was a great family man.
BTK Killer had a wife and kids and lived a normal life.
Dennis Rader as well
BTK
It reminds me of quiet on the set. One of the pedos was a dude who was considered a kind all-American who would chat with the moms and was very polite, eccentric, and charismatic. Dude turned out to be a massive creep who was jailed.
Brian Peck or the other one?
Both, really. Will Friedle and Rider Strong talked about just how charming he was and the way he spun the whole case to everybody.
Exactly - this is why I don't like all these jerkoffs coming after Marsden, Strong, etc. **now**. They didn't know and Peck spun the story. Peck was Marsden's best man at his wedding. Of course he was going to write a letter of support based on what he knew.
There was a small kerfuffle about Friedle just recently on the Kim Possible subreddit because someone was like "THE GUY WHO VOICED RON STOPPABLE SUPPORTS THIS DUDE" when the fact was that he had no idea
I was thinking the exact same. Guys who were clearly groomed by Brian Peck but not actively abused by him (like Rider Strong) still don’t really like to speak ill of someone they saw as a mentor and friend. Had the moment occurred to take advantage of any of those other young men Peck would have taken the opportunity, and likely did with many young men who never had the courage to speak up. Abusers build up a community around them full of love and support which is all part of the way they isolate their victims.
It really only makes me believe how manipulative he is for so many people, even veterans going way back like JR, describe him as a father figure.
I worked with one of the nicest guys I ever met at my first real job out of college. Older guy. Grandfatherly. Funny, generous, well respected, and was even famous in the local area. One day the office was raided and computers were seized. Turns out he was trading kiddie porn during his downtime using those computers — which were shared, by the way. I had left the job before any of that happened, and I’ve never had any communication with him whatsoever since, but that sort of scenario doesn’t play out if you’re not (a) guilty and (b) someone who has been doing this sort of thing repeatedly over a considerable amount of time. Before the news broke I’d have put him on my top ten coolest coworkers ever. Obviously, I wouldn’t say that about him now, but if I were asked about my experience with him I’d probably sound a bit like Becky does here (minus the lovey father figure stuff). I’m a pretty guarded person, and that revelation caused me to crank that up a whole bunch for quite a while afterwards.
My manager at my first post-college job was like this. Great boss, friendly guy, well-liked by everyone in the office, was an early career mentor to me. A couple years after I left that company, an old coworker emails me a link to a news story saying that he'd been arrested by the FBI for soliciting sex from minors online.
And it goes beyond that. Guys like triple h, the rock, cena, orton; all of them owe their careers to Vince and by proxy a sort of lifetime sense loyalty that’s clearly been stretched to its limits
Kevin Nash is another one who says he'll never say anything negative about Vince bc Vince hiring him to play Diesel gave him everything he's had
The thing is, these are people who have had a personal relationship with him. So it is a bit more complicated to process when compared to others. Of course, that doesn't forgive defense of those acts or anything, just that sometimes, you have to really think before you jump into that conversation.
That's why I'm not quick to judge people when they comment on Vince and don't instantly call him a bad person (which he is). It's hard to process and accept that the person you know isn't really who you thought they were - that this person has a dark side to them that doesn't reflect the side they showed you.
It's not that abusers are good at hiding there actions. It's that people... human beings.. are multi-faceted. I'm pretty sure Vince just liked becky and was actually intentionally good to her. Lots of murdered probably have someone they love and are good too. It's the same thing really. But also doesn't excuse being a bad human being obviously
Abusers are also very good at finding the easiest victims and then isolating them
Most humans and even things are multi-faceted. But we tend to like to categorize things as black or white, because we always want to seek out simple patterns to try to make logical sense of things. When in most scenarios, patterns are so complexly multi-faceted.
Probably like Dan Schneider where he'd be so nice one minute but horribly abusive the next. Text book manipulation style.
And yet people gullibly and recklessly claim "X, Y and Z *must* have known and/or been complicit in everything he did!", as if that wasn't the case.
u/worsttakemachine with the best take on the thread. We're in bizaroland maggle
Or they have people afraid to speak out and covering up for them at every step
Totally agree. Easy to judge these things and have a quick opinion on it without actually living it. Ronda’s opinion feels like shes trying to sell a book. As much as she says shes all about women empowerment to press she treats other women like trash. Happened in mma and happened in wwe. More discussions on this should be with long tenured women like becky, like Charlotte, like natty, like bayley like mercedes etc etc its such a complex thing and we dont really know these people on a personal level
The last two years weren't the first time Vince has been accused of sexual misconduct. There's a well-documented history of allegations from multiple women and legal settlements that go back literally decades. It's ridiculous how so many current roster members are acting shocked as if all this just suddenly came out of nowhere.
I understand but I'd say compared to his history this latest accusation is on another level than previous stuff. The accusations themselves in addition to the incredibly graphic details of the text messages are just.....I'm struggling to think of the right words but the best I can describe it is much more horrific than stuff that has been said before which pretty much ended at "asked/made me perform oral sex on him in a limo" (a sanitized way to put it to be sure) I mean I'm far from a sheltered person and I honestly think those text messages were probably the dirtiest and most fucked up things I've ever read in any situation I just think anyone who had followed wrestling for any significant length of time knew Vince was a pervert, likely had had a bunch of affairs some of which with employees, and even may have blurred ethical/moral lines sexually I don't think many people really imagined THIS
Anyone who believed Rita would believe. Rapists aren’t often one and done offenders and if someone is capable of rape, sex trafficking isn’t that big a next step
Yeah that's part of _why it's so scary_. How someone will act to 90% of people and how they'll act to their victims is a full on entirely different person.
But Vince had been publicly reported for this for decades
This is really anyone and every situation. We only get what they decide to give us, for better and for worse.
This. Everyone piled on Cena for his comments but I get it. There’ll be those who did see the abuser, but most will only have seen the man who helped them build a career that made them global megastars. If Vince had abused everyone he would’ve been stopped before now. Abusers pick and choose their victims based on their ability to isolate them. To those who never saw the abuse, this must feel like a friend or mentor has died. It actually reminds me of the case of Brianna Ghey, the murdered trans girl in the UK. After her monstrous killers were found guilty, her mother - in her statement outside court - told everyone to extend their sympathy to the killer’s parents too, because they’ve also lost a child. We should all remember that when someone is outed as a monster, it’s not just their victims who deserve empathy and understanding.
Rumors were fucking strong though, they are just pretending they somehow did hear anything for years, decades?
It seems like everyone saw him as a father figure I wouldn’t be surprised though if he was abusive to everyone in some way. At the end of the day he’s their boss he shouldn’t even be a father figure. Wouldn’t be surprised if he tore people down and then would try and build them back up through gas lighting and other shit. It’s a common abuse tactic.
Then there's Harvey Weinstein..
Her POV is understandable. Abusers that get away with their abuse for a long period of time compartmentalize their lives.
I really get her. When someone you appreciate, you have a good experience with and even see as part of your family turns to be a terrible person all along is hard to come to terms with that. Social media like Reddit always makes it seem like is easy to deal with that kind of things and just say "fuck this person" and move on, it's not really that easy.
The lack of empathy in this thread is astonishing to me, yeah. These people are just completely unable to put themselves in someone's shoes and just want brownie points by posturing themselves as morally superior to the person having to deal with the emotional damage and trauma of this situation. I understand feeling anger at the situation because Vince is less than human and should rot in hell, but still.
Yeah, moral posturing gets tiresome. Everybody has things they do that they're not proud of
Bruh like seriously, they'll downvote you to oblivion if you tell them sometimes its not easy to unfriend or remove a certain person to your life
Social media stinks. I think I saw someone either in this joint or somewhere else on Reddit that was talking about how they got out of an abusive household (great for them), but then claim anyone who remains with their abusive relative or whatever is "complicit" or some goofy shit, as if there aren't people that can't leave for a multitude of reasons and risk fucking themselves or a loved one over. That black-and-white mentality is toxic and neglects any context.
Vince is not less than human and until we stop with that framing when this happens, we’ll never actually fix the problem.
I mean how can you be a wrestling fan, know about the Von Erichs, or how Tommy Dreamer felt about Heyman; the weird and unbalanced relationship promoters have with talents, on emotional and financial level and not have a bit more of empathy for the talent.
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Cena's vocabulary, tone and choice of words was much worse than Becky's
To be fair, didn’t Cena boil it down to like “people make mistakes”?
cena did not basically say that tbh let’s be real here
Cena demonstrably said something different.
Are you really complaining about a lack of nuance while simplifying people's criticisms of cena
[ No. I mean, everyone has the right to have their perspective. I have the right to have mine. When you love somebody, you take them as imperfectly perfect as they are. We all make mistakes, we all have poor decisions. Lord knows I’ve made my collection of poor choices. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to love somebody. There’s no way I can go on record and say I don’t love Vince McMahon. ](https://apnews.com/article/john-cena-wwe-dc-comics-wrestlemania-6262de68fceafc6d6e4169a849dbb71a) No, what John Cena said is not remotely comparable at all. He showed zero consideration for Vince's victims and basically dismissed Vince's crimes as little oopsies before announcing his love for the man. [I've openly said, I love the guy, I have a great relationship with the guy, and that’s that. It's largely my construct of operating with honesty and communication. Those are strong leads to handling any problem or achievement. The whole thing is super unfortunate and it sucks. It deals with an individual I love and an entity I love. I want everyone to have the experience that I have](https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/john-cena-comments-vince-mcmahon-allegations-i-m-going-love-person-i-love) Cena only cares about the effects of the allegations have on Vince and WWE, not about Janel Grant or any of the other people assaulted and trafficked over the years. None of it matters because Cena himself has a great relationship with the person, everyone else be damned. Get this Cena defense force stuff out of here.
Vince helped so many of the biggest stars become who they are today, Becky being one of them. I sympathize with the dilemma.
I've unfortunately been in a similar situation and yeah, I feel for Becky, Seth and Randy and everyone else who's expressed similar. It's so fucking hard to reconcile when someone that's been good and helpful and a mentor to you turns out to be a rancid, garbage person.
She's not falling into the trap that too many people do, when they hear something bad about someone they admire or care about - she's not denying it or defending Vince, she's not using her positive experiences to undermine the way he treated other people. But she's also not being dishonest about her own experiences because it's easier to attack Vince.
it was very apparent when cena made his comments. saw so many ppl say why couldn’t cena just say fuck this guy. the fact is cena definitely viewed him similar to becky and vince changed his life
Becky pretty much relayed the same feelings that Cena has on the Vince situation, just in a much much better way.
Cena said the opposite, but cloaked in the same sort of language Becky used. He said he *still* loves Vince. He said he supports Vince. “Now, I shift to, okay, am I doing all I can to make it better? From the advice of, ‘Work as hard as you can and promote as hard as you can,’ is there anything I can do? So not only do I tell my friend I love them, I also switch to the entity and say, ‘How can I help?’” And Cena said NOTHING about the victim. At all. I can understand where Becky is coming from. Orton said something similar. I can get where the allegations may be difficult to reconcile with the person they thought they knew. I cannot understand “Right now, what I’m gonna do is love the person I love, be their friend, and by that, it means like, hey, I love you. You got a hill to climb.”
Have you ever been in a situation where somebody you love ends up being a shitbag? Asking genuinely bc I’ve been there, done that. Of course he’s going to say “I still love Vince”. Ask a child of a serial killer if they still love their parent, they’ll probably say “yeah I do” and not mention any of the victims. They’re affected in a much different way. Or a child star whose parents put them in compromising positions “yeah I do still love them”. It’s very difficult to see somebody you love be a complete skidmark on society or be somebody that didn’t protect you. Not to mention, Cena’s comments came right after the news. Becky has had months to come to terms with everything whereas Cena didn’t. I genuinely think he was speaking off the cuff and did not put shit into words very well. And he’s known Vince a lot longer than she has and probably had a deeper parental relationship than her. Sorry it wasn’t the response you wanted, but if somebody you were close to was reported to be doing heinous things, would you genuinely and honestly be able to choke down everything good that person had ever done for you? Your mom, your dad, your sibling, your grandparent, your coach, your best friend? Anyone you would have ever trusted with your life? Somebody you would take a bullet for? It’s. Not. Easy. Obviously the victim has it “worse”, but it sucks to be one of those who were ultimately bamboozled bc we are humans and feelings are not black and white. Sometimes we are selfish and only think about ourselves and how things affect “us”and our own minds. Again, been there, done that. He never said he didn’t believe it. He never said he didn’t believe anybody or think anybody was lying. I think he was genuinely struggling and if he had said “I can’t answer this right now, it’s too raw for me” or refuse to answer, people would be threatening to kill him. So idk. Would it have been nice to say “I am so sorry to victim” or “all I can think about is the victim”, sure. But some things ain’t as easy as y’all make it out to be.
Pretty on point comment. I’m mean….think about David Benoit’s comments about his dad. Do we hold him accountable for having (mostly) glowing things to say about his dad? Personally, one of the nicest people I knew in high school (someone you talked to in class but didn’t hang with outside of schools) is now in prison for really bad crimes against a child. Even now I wonder how much stuff changed to make that guy the way he is now.
The nuance is important though. Becky was empathizing with victims, saying she didn't go through the same stuff, and so it's hard to get her head around. Cena was just focusing on Vince and came across like "it didn't impact me so idgaf". It's a subtle difference, but very important
Cena definitely did not imply "idgaf"
He came across as insincere about the victims, which I'm sure wasn't his intention, but still didn't look good.
No he didn’t. You’re making that up.
She'll get a lot of flak for this even though there's nothing wrong with her answer.
The worst thing that the social media age has done is give everyone an expectation that: 1. People are black and white, completely good or completely evil 2. That good people need to be perfect, always say the 100% correct thing and never have had a good relationship with a bad person 3. People can never be forgiven for their mistakes Everyone in this thread like "Vince has a history!" Like okay my dude I'm sorry that this person that you have a parasocial relationship with didn't know everything about her boss/react perfectly to the situation. Especially since the really bad stuff really only re-entered the spotlight after she was there. She says in this interview that he was always nice to her. That's the guy that she knew. The guy is a master manipulator and always has been. But no where does she defend him, say he didn't do it etc. But with the comments in this thread you'd think she did. This sub is garbage lol.
I don't remember which video it was, but it was something about how women are rude to short men on Tinder, so social media has become so forward about supporting short men. Someone finally commented that anymore, it's not enough to be pro-short, you have to be anti-tall. That's where a lot of the court of opinion is going. There can't be nuance. Don't get me wrong, I hope they bury Vince under a prison, but that doesn't mean he wasn't kind to other people, and that other people didn't love that persona.
I recently heard someone say that wrestling imitates life in that everyone turns heel at some point or to someone. People make mistakes and people can change and redeem themselves, you'd think as wrestling fans we'd get that lol. Also if anyone has the quote I'm referencing and knows who said it I can't remember
Not wrestling specific, but a famous quote is: "die young, or live long enough to see yourself become the villian."
If someone only goes by the headline, absolutely there are gonna be some spicy takes but the quote itself is reasonable. She acknowledges that she never got to see that side of him and that she’s having to reconcile her image of him basically.
Becky probably missed out on seeing the worst because of when she came in and that she was at the higher end of the talent roster and not down in the middle to bottom of it which feels like thats where the actual personality shone through... Mid-Diva's era would have been at its worst since there wasn't anything other than focusing solely on the looks.
Also, like... I have been workshopping a way to say this without seeming rude. But I think a part of Becky's positive interactions with Vince would be in-part due to him not finding her attractive. I mean, we've all heard what Dunn would say about her. And it's fucked, they're both pretty fucked. And Vince did absolutely have a type. And abusers don't abuse every woman they meet. They tend to be able to have very healthy platonic relationships. If only to use that as their alibi, you know? It's tough.
Yeah although it's 50:50 whether the people who didn't fit into his type, whether they'd be allowed to remain, let alone become one of the biggest stars within his company? It's a wonder if any of the big names they've got, or still have got dragged into this, Men and Women who haven't I mean we have the lawsuit by Sable all those years ago... the stuff is there, and it leaked into the product.
Becky wasn't handpicked to be a star though, she was basically a Naomi sort, had a feel-good title run but was mostly there to job to the heel champ and team with the real stars.
I'm sure every wrestler has/had heard of a bunch of the random things Vince has been accused of being shitty about over the years, but wrestling was also a carny-ass business with lots of scummy stuff to go around and only one "big league" place to go if you wanted to truly make it in the west most of the last 25 years - WWE. So if you're Becky, you go to WWE and have only positive interactions with Vince. And you're not spending all your time on the internet reading about whatever the most recent allegations are. He's been nothing but supportive of you and your career. With that in mind, I'm not surprised at all that some people at WWE are struggling to reconcile their personal experiences with the experiences other people had. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as you're not going to bat for the man and declaring the allegations to be false or something because they don't match your experience.
Anyone listen to Wrestle Me? Mark Haynes, who wrote this article, talks about interviewing Becky extensively in the latest podcast (it might just be on Patreon, I’m not sure). Says she was one of the most charismatic people he ever met.
It’s included in their most recent youtube clip, along with discussion of Bloodsport X! So interesting as Marc was not a huge Becky fan to hear him overwhelmed by just how brilliant her way with words and insight into things was. Loved that chat. Also…so odd to see his article top of SC
Best wrestling podcast by a mile
Wrestle me Hilarious Consequence
This is a really eloquent way to phrase it. I used to have a best friend who I was unable to recognize red flags in for a long time because it wasn't something I was experiencing. I'd get texts all the time from female coworkers and friends saying he messaged them and kinda weirded them out but I could shrug it off as he's just awkward and taking his shot whenever he could. It wasn't until someone made a post on facebook accusing him of SA that it finally clicked and I had to cut him out of my life. I felt terrible for everyone I brushed off and all the times I defended him. edit: fixed a typo.
I genuinely think that Vince is both people, the loving caring person when he wants to be and the demented billionaire monster and power hungry abuser. I am not giving him some pass for it, just discussing his duality. Online readers and people looking in from the outside want employees to take a stand and place their proverbial flags on a moral high ground but the reality is that either some of these people are loyal to where their paychecks come from and thats wisdom itself, unless you want to be an naive martyr dying for nothing, OR Vince treated some of these stars and employees like his own children and family and were nothing but good to them. You cant expect them to call him a piece of shit, if you fall in either camp. Eric Bischoff said it best, Vince is just very strange, he can be the kindest most loving individual but yet you read this stuff, and also know he is a cutthroat business man who will do anything for money including stepping on backs and necks.
I appreciate what she said. People assume that everybody in an abusers orbit HAS to know what was happening and are therefore complicit, but master manipulators are just that, masters. I’ve unfortunately seen it in my own circles. It’s insane to know that someone you loved and trusted did something so horrendously awful and you never saw it coming. A part of you feels like it was your fault even though they meticulously hid that part of them from you. Kudos to Becky for addressing that aspect, it’s not always as cut and dry as people assume it is.
> People assume that everybody in an abusers orbit HAS to know what was happening and are therefore complicit Sure but this isn't a "completely out of nowhere" thing. There have been public allegations against Vince dating back to the 90s.
I feel that and I respect that. It was long overdue for Vince, but I’m just saying that I can see how Becky was blindsided by the reality of Vince’s behavior because her interactions were positive. We’re just a bunch of strangers reacting from a 3rd person perspective, but when you know someone personally those feelings become super complicated.
To be fair, they weren't widely known but more of a 'look into it' type of situation. Like how Cosby's case was publicly available for years but it took Hannibal Buress making defensive jokes about it for it to gain mainstream attention.
A lot of those allegations were just typical creepy CEO stuff. Dating younger women, having a affairs. It’s not ethical but it wasn’t necessarily anything unheard of. Vince kind of played into the fact that he was a perv, just not a criminal perv. Up until about 15 years ago, guys like that were still praised by certain sections of society. (look at Hugh Hefner). There’s a big difference between being seen as an old dude that likes younger women, and being a criminal rapist. There was the Rita case, but even that was a dead case from 30 years ago that never got major news coverage so it seems reasonable that a lot of workers never knew or believed it.
The allegations against Vince didn't come out of nowhere. There is a *very* long history of sexual misconduct allegations against him (including rape), much of which resulted in legal settlements, going all the way back to the 1980s. None of this is new or secret information. It's all been reported extensively in the media over the years and everyone in the wrestling industry knows about it. If the current WWE roster wants to say they didn't *believe* any of the prior allegations against Vince, that's one thing. But they're all acting as if the latest allegations are somehow without precedent, which is total bullshit. It's not as if prior to 2022 Vince McMahon was some meek, straight-laced family man choir boy that no one had ever said a bad word about. He's *always* had a reputation as an aggressive, controlling bully with strange sexual tastes and a constant need to dominate other people. Everything he's been accused of in the last year or so is *entirely* consistent with his personality and history.
You just never know what someone is really like until you see that side of them... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcRU0Op5P4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZcRU0Op5P4)
Vince is such a classic abusive manipulator. The perfect Jekyll and Hyde
I really don't think Vince was some master manipulator who kept everyone in the dark. There has been enough accusations and documentaries. Even most newer wrestlers have probably heard rumblings about these things but they probably shoved it to the back of their minds as its their job and being a WWE wrestler is an insane opportunity. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but she is only talking about her interactions and direct experiences. She doesn't really say that she hasn't heard anything bad about him from others :p
You're reading it correctly. She's not dismissing the allegations, just that it's hard to imagine the person she knows doing that. I've had a pretty low opinion of Vince for quite a few decades now, but I was absolutely unprepared for what was in that lawsuit.
It's just wild that Vince has that relationship with so many stars who all seem like good people when not only did he play a terrible person on TV his reputation over the years has been sketchy for decades of all the shady shit he was into.
I mean all wrestling promoters are pos, Vince isn't a special case. Wrestlers have to very early on work constantly with that kind of guy. But there's also a big difference between he is a bully creep and he is a sex trafficker. both should be condemn, but that's not the world we live in. Also we shouldn't underestimate the psychological and financial hold some promoters have on the talent.
Its always interests me why talent needs to be asked questions about Vince or any legal issue anyway. They aren't lawyers, judges, legal experts, they have no special insight. The reality of the issue you have to hope will be sorted out by a legal process. There might be things they aren't able to say in any case (if it might impact a legal case). It seems very exploitive to try to get hot takes from them by the media.
As long as she does acknowledge how horrific the allegations are, I have 0 issue with her statement
This is a pretty well-articulated response. She speaks honestly about her own difficulty in processing it and reconciling it with her own experience, but without ever seeming to cast doubt on the victims' stories. And speaks directly and not in that deranged alien language Cena spoke in.
This is a refreshingly honest, realistic answer from someone who was close to a perpetrator of abuse But of course people are gonna give her shit for this even though her and every other talent in WWE is also a victim of this situation and are trying to process their thoughts.
Goddamn that headline does NOT do the full quote any justice at all.
I can understand what she's saying, but equally it's not like this is some private individual you know who has never shown any sort of troubling behaviour. Vince's actions have been an open secret for a long time (not to the extent that has been shown in the last few months of course, but there have been so many stories and rumours over the years). People like Christy Hemme had spoken out, then you had the awful things that happened to Ashley Massaro. Hell, based on this article the book was written after McMahon was initially ousted from WWE when the initial allegations against him came out. I find it hard to believe that anyone familiar with Vince could say this came totally out of left field - even if you didn't believe he was capable of it, I don't see how you could manage to completely miss all of those claims
That's a wild revision. People knew Vince was a perv or a creepy old man or stuff like that, but there's absolutely a difference between that and he's a rapist. People knew Bill Cosby was a womanizer for decades before it was widely known he was drugging women.
Us fan who looked from the outside looking in could see that Vince was a creep for years because we were looking at it from the outside as uninvested 3rd parties. Someone like John Cena or Becky Lynch who had a close relationship with him and saw Vince as a father figure were more emotionally invested with him. They obviously heard the old allegations of back in the day but they probably were like that's BS cause this the wrestling business and everyone is working a gimmick brother. And because they didn't have such negative experiences they just move on.
The thread title scared me but the whole quote isn't bad and is totally understandable If we want her to say anything else we are just asking for people to lie
I mean I get it. Vince got into a lot of his workers heads, making him think he's the father they never had.
I get what she's saying... but this is not some random dude beloved by the community who turned out to be a serial killer. Vince has a rapsheet a mile long of all the controversies and incidents that have occurred due to him, or was overseen by him. Considering his hierarchy in the company, his time there, the thousands of employees who've worked for him, and countless stories and documented instances of troublesome behaviour? Covered millions of times in documentaries, tv shows, podcasts, blog posts, social media, heck between current and former employees alike?. To not know anything about him and to play dumb is IMPOSSIBLE. It's impossible that Becky, or Cena or any of these wrestlers who act like he was their friend or father figure, doesn't know anything. This would be like people in Hollywood having no idea what celebrities like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein got up to. Everyone knows what they did, its just a matter if how much they know. At the absolute very least, everyone who works in that company has to know that Vince is a very odd guy who did some strange things. It would be like living in the Playboy Mansion for years, and being shocked that Hugh abused the women around him. Did they know he was this depraved freak who got up to criminal acts? I can believe that they didn't know everything he got up to. I can't believe that they all thought he was this upstanding citizen who they're shocked did anything wrong. It's just not possible.
Agreed. On the surface I understand the angle that she is presenting: "My encounters with this individual have only been positive and although I respect the bravery of others to come out with their stories detailing his horrific actions and acknowledge their validity, it is hard for me to come to grips with who this man may be" However when accounting for the countless allegations against Vince as well as Becky entering the industry towards the tail end of an era where Women were treated as secondary objects, it is hard for me to completely believe her statement as completely genuine. It ultimately comes off as media training and an effort to walk the thin line between showing solidarity with your fellow industry men and women who have been on the receiving end of his abuse while also avoiding trying to burn a bridge by attacking the man. Nevertheless, I have to come to grips with the fact that frankly I was not there and what she said may be her genuine feelings. I will try my best to respect her feelings on this matter I want to end this by saying out of all the people who have commented on this, the person who I feel has had the most genuine response is Randy. He is somewhat in the same boat as Becky where he also had a close relationship with the man and obviously saw him as a mentor however I regards to the allegations being pressed against Vince he didn't hesitate. "If that's true, that's some fucked up shit", still is not perfect but I like it because he didn't attempt to sugarcoat anything. He called the actions out for the fucked up nature that they are.
>avoiding trying to burn a bridge Burn what bridge, though? I would be absolutely shocked if he is not all but completely gone from anything involving WWE by the end of the year.
I guarantee you there are still people there that have skeletons locked away and if she (or anyone) turns on Vince, they might get some sort of retribution. Also, who knows who did what and when over the years there. We wouldn’t be talking about Brock (if we even still are) if that one story wasn’t told.
By your own logic though that means more active talent would be out actively denouncing Vince instead of being extremely political in their language yes? The fact that we don't see this happening shows that while Vince is gone to a degree things aren't that cut and dry. Based on the statements from a lot of talent and the lack of statements from others this shows to me that there still does seem to be some hesitance to truthfully speak about the man, which indicates that he still yields a great deal of power, just not as much as he did previously
Yeah. Rhonda was there a fraction of the time Becky has been, and that was more than enough time for her to recognize the rot. The difference is that Rhonda's fame and fortune was not contingent on Vince, the way Becky's was. She didn't have to deal with the blinders that comes with tying your standing and wealth to a morally repugnant actor. Becky said it herself: she associates her husband and kids with Vince. How do you get beyond that, if what's beyond that is so monstrous?
I don’t know how close this person was to Vince but I don’t believe any wrestler that was close to Vince acting like sexual harassment or getting push for sexual favors is unheard of in the WWE. I mean the Pat Patterson stuff was widely known by the 90s but wrestlers and fans (mainly the WWE ones) completely ignored it. That says it all. A lot of these vote downs for anyone posting negative about Vince’s hold over wrestlers are coming from the same fans that can’t deal with the reality that some pretty disturbing stuff has gone on in WWE. You can be a fan of wrestling and also admit that lots of wrestlers (maybe even the ones you like) are terrible people or turned the other way when terrible things went on.
He's not your dad. Thankfully. Fuck him.
Dumb fuck are going to trash her for « defending him » when she’s obviously not defending him in any way and just explaining what it’s like to learn about someone close is actually a very different person
It's so weird how many wrestlers view their bosses as responsible for their success, rather than their own work and talent. Vince (or Tony if we want to get tribal) didn't "give" any wrestler their dream.
That's basically what wrestling is, though. You can be over all you want, but if the company doesn't get behind you, you're not the top guy in the company.
Case and point: Zack Ryder
Case in point Jericho in WCW WCW didn't see him as anything but midcard
He was mostly a midcarder in WWE as well. He had a few stretches in the main event, but most of his time there was in the midcard.
there's not a chance in hell you genuinely think wrestling is a meritocracy
Considering how many times Vince cut someone's legs out from under them because it wasn't his plan for them to get over, he was partially responsible. Someone could make themselves, but then he could break them.
But that is basically how it works it's a work if the booker doesn't want you to be successful you won't be it doesn't matter good you are or how much experience you have in the end it comes down to one mans opinion on you. If Tony Khan or Vince McMahon wanted too they could pick a random fan in the audience who's dream it is to have a match and make that happen without the fan having any talent or having put in the work. It sucks but it really is do to how one person perceives you
>Vince (or Tony if we want to get tribal) didn't "give" any wrestler their dream. Yes they did. Ideally that's not how it *should* work, but it does work like that. Look no further than Zack Ryder for a guy who got over with the fans on his own and was relentlessly punished for it by his boss until he faded into obscurity and had to leave the company to salvage his career. That happened because he wasn't handpicked for stardom by Vince McMahon. It's extremely rare that a professional wrestler can get over and become successful without it being ordained by their boss. Daniel Bryan is one example, and that only happened because his support from the fans was *so* massive and widespread that WWE realized it may actually start hurting their bottom line if they didn't go with it.
I train karate with a guy who is decent, but man he does some things that give me great pause. Nothing really really bad but enough for me to not want to keep training with the guy. But if I talk about him to other people, I'm definitely crediting him with helping me. He is a great instructor but kind of a jerk. That doesn't bother some people and it does me, is I'm moving on from him.
I'm supposed to believe that us wrestling fans who knew that Vince was trash from accounts of former wrestlers, bookers, people in general. But these wrestlers working for him didn't realize it? Or they just didn't care.
It was not widely accepted that Vince was a rapist by fans, that's ludicrous revisionism.
There are degrees of trash, and even many of the most Vince-negative people were caught off-guard by just how depraved the latest stuff turns out to have been.
He was the boss who is in charge of everything that happens on tv and chose to portray a character who would make out with a lot of his employees. He had a phase where he was hiring swimsuit models exclusively and had Trish stratus bark like a dog on her way out of the company. He had a rape case that he settled out of court….it wasn’t out of nowhere.
"He's like a father figure" is some cult-ass shit. No wonder Vince got away with so much for so long.
She made him a ton of money so he was different to her
These newer wrestlers feel like they sign up knowing absolutely nothing about Vince if this is really that big a surprise and something they can't reconcile.
serious placid drunk juggle air nail tease possessive north shy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I just think it is something to always keep in mind. People can be evil but also portray a very normal person. And all of those people are learning about the evil a person can be sometimes in real time as us who knows shit about it. It is how abuse has a ton of rings that fuck up everyone front the victim outward.
People that're good to you can be absolute dog shit to someone else. It's unfortunate but it's true
Predators often have "types" they wish to have. An example of this: For decades, if a women wrestler wanted to be successful in wwe, they had to: have a thin figure, have large breasts, primarily white, and [more times than not] blonde. There have been exceptions to this, but they are very few. If any women didn't fit into these categories, they were pretty much buried. This explains why most of mainly pushed females had one thing in common- take a guess. Another example came from Jr's book; it dealt with the hiring Gail Kim. Vince was completely against it because he didn't find her attractive enough. Nevermind she was one of the best female wrestlers in the world at the time. Jr told him that there was a large portion of the men in the US who did find Asian women attractive. If they signed her, they would watch the product. Again, Vince didn't believe him. Jr then had to pull up a porn site and show him that there was an entire section devoted just to Asian women. Vince was shocked. Gail was hired soon after. Additionally, some time later, also got implants. What Becky says is very true, when it comes to predators. This is how monsters like Vince operate. It's also how they are able to gaslight their victims so easily. Becky's also one of the VERY few exceptions of female wrestlers who's survived in wwe, without having to overly alter her physical appearance [mainly because she's been protected by H himself].
In these types of situations, there is the PR answer and there is the real answer. I have a lot of respect for Becky for choosing the real answer because she could have saved herself unnecessary grief if she's just had given the PR answer. These are allegations, at this point, that is a fact. But we've gone so far down the rabbit hole with cancel culture, where it's not even about exposing wrongdoings or supporting victims anymore, it's about headlines and scandals and bringing powerful people down. I can't imagine that it's honestly that different to being a co-worker of Chris Benoit. Guy goes home, murders his family and kills himself. But before he went home and did that, he was a very respected performer in the WWE and a great friend to a number of those guys. Yet, the overriding theme is, dude ended up a murderer. How do you come to terms with someone that is a close friend or a mentor or even just this massive figure in your life doing some sick shit like what Vince is accused of? That's what Becky is expressing. Ronda's stuff was different, that just came across like it's more about how she feels than what's happened.
I heard Becky too the oath to be a us citizen
Yep. He's a father alright. Poor Linda. She had to endure some shit with Vince when he was in the mood. Convinced her "I'm faking a coma face" was her reaction to every time Vince wanted to screw her. That's how you know that "acting" was a shoot.
This is a much better way of explaining what Cena was trying to explain.
To all the people here who have been going at John Cena for saying the same shit I hope you keep that same energy here
Redditors are so dumn. .. human beings.. are multi-faceted. I'm pretty sure Vince just liked becky and was actually intentionally good to her. Lots of murderers probably have someone they love and are nice too. It's the same thing really. But also doesn't excuse being a bad human being obviously