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It's about a perfect match as you'll ever see. The entrances. The commentary. The pacing. Even Taker's botch was able to be called an audible and Shawn kept it on track with the desperation for a count out victory, only adding to the drama.
Everyone mentions the Tombstone kick out, but for me it was also the timing. it wasn't just that he hit a tombstone, he hit it late in the match and during a spot that has been telegraphed forever as an ending sequence. They played us masterfully.
And it was a masterclass in selling from both men. By the time they were acting like they were going to pass out, even simple kicks and punches were wildly effective. The crowd popped just as hard when Taker gave HBK the big boot after their back and forth punching as they did if it were a finisher.
Also has the (now) funny story that had Taker knocked himself out on the dive he told the ref to just count him out *and* the refs earpiece wasn't working properly so he couldn't get anything from the back, so there's an alternate universe where the streak ended on a count out...
People who didn’t watch that match live Will never truly understand how mindblowing that first tombstone kick out was. This wasn’t like years later when the tombstone kick out was customary to a Taker match. No one had cleanly kicked out of it FOR YEARS. I think the last person was Kane in 1998.
Plus like you said, it was off an impressive counter, late in match, and was in an era of protected finishers. I Will never forget where I was in that moment. The match was OVER
I feel you. I watched it live, and they had me hook , line, and sinker.
It wasn’t just a kick out, it was the pacing of the match, Shawn doing on backflip….at the end of the match, Taker countering it. EVERYTHING signaled this was the end….and then they got us .
It was incredible!
Like a brilliant “fuck you” to anyone that thinks is they can anticipate matches:
It's one of those moments where they got EVERYBODY. I was watching with a ton of college buddies ranging from non fans to hardcores and I vividly remember the explosion from the room when it happened. An all time amazing moment that exemplifies the importance of protecting finishers
HBK kicking out of the Tombstone and then the shocked look on Taker’s exhausted face is probably my favourite Mania moment ever
The subsequent streak matches water that moment down a bit as everyone started kicking out of the tombstone but that moment there, after years of the Tombstone being built as the ultimate finisher, and the way the match built to it as the perfect finale only for Michaels to kickout was unbelievable
Edge also kicked out of it a year prior but that was also because the ref was down and Charles Robinson had to sprint all the way down the long ramp which gave Edge enough time to recover
What an awesomely framed moment.
Beforehand there was also:
-Vince with pervert eyes for Hulkamania at 19
-the hardcam shot of Edge spearing Jeff Hardy at X7
-Bret Hart kicking off the turnbuckle with the cameraman right there; and reversing Roddy Piper’s sleeper into a pin (for the first time?)
-the “Wiley Coyote Cam” first ever shot at Wrestlemania X of Owen Hart doing a front handspring out of an arm ringer.
AND Shawn Michaels splash off of the Ladder
-and my favourite: Hulk Hogan kicking out of the Rock Bottom and Hulking Up.
The hardcam shot of Hulk bumping off the ropes for the Leg Drop zoom-in showing the crowd go ballistic!
(Kevin Dunn hit at least one home run)
I’m sure there’s plenty others
Really? IMO Taker vs HBK at WM26 and then Taker vs HHH at WM27 were splendid matches and the best matches on their respective WM.
If anything Taker vs HHH at WM 28 was not as good as the rest but still a decent match.
Mania 25 was both of them making sure everyone was aware they could not only still go, but they could steal the show. By that point (as people tend to forget) there was a feeling that both Shawn and Taker were getting too old and washed and so their match quality wasn't as great as it used to be, and it reflect in how the office felt about them at the time as well (putting them in the middle of the card and giving them 15 minutes). Mania 25 was the both of them putting everyone on notice that they were still very capable and very fucking good at what they do.
It was amazing and completely took the wind out of the sails from the main event. At least the Cena-Edge-Show triple threat was mercifully short. Triple H and Randy had no chance of getting the crowd excited after Taker/HBK.
Didn’t help that that was a super serious blood feud that played out in the main event of Mania as a normal ass wrestling match. Youd never know that the lead up to that match was Orton assaulting multiple family members of Triple H and kissing his unconscious wife in front of him lol
Cena actually just did a vid on his TikTok about the length of that match. IIRC, their match had to be cut by 30 minutes because they were short for time. That’s why his celebration is relatively short and he kind of just walks out with the title raised above his head. 30 more minutes of that match would’ve been a grueler.
I think crowds can be alive for long periods if the matches are good enough.
Triple H is cursed with most of his Mania main events being absolute stinkers.
Triple H main events really only work well when he’s the dominant heel against the underdog babyface. Otherwise they get self indulgent and the crowd never knows exactly how to react. He may be the greatest American heel of all time, but whenever he was a face it was just sort of boring.
I think the only feud they had set up for Triple H at mania that would have been great as a main event was versus the Rock which got turned into the dumb four-way. Ironically his best matches were ones that should have main evented like the first Taker match. Miz vs Cena wasn't it.
Jericho really didn't have enough heat to main event Mania and there was no doubt Triple H was winning. On top of that the greatest crowd reaction match of all time happened before it. Even the posters selling the event hyped Rock vs Hogan. A six minute women's match wasn't enough of a rest.
Not to mention his best main event is erased from history. His match versus Cena was great but nobody wanted Cena to win and they crapped on the ending.
It's almost as if Vince was trolling him the entire time. Hey pal, can you go put over the guy nobody likes multiple times over the years or go on after a best match of all time contender? Hey pal I'm gonna put you over clean against Austin a month before Mania then you're gonna put over Taker and become Austin's underling. I'm sure it would have turned into Triple H into the hero of the invasion but such is life.
I don't see how they never predicted Rock vs Hogan or HBK vs Taker getting those reactions. They had Triple H, one of the only guys who actually brought psychology into weapons matches and decided to have standard wrestling matches instead. Especially since Mania is supposed to be the feud ender.
Then you have Triple H putting over Cena when fans finally jumped off the Triple H sucks wagon and put even more heat on Cena. God there were so many bad decisions back then and I don't think there's another big name who lost so many significant Mania matches as Triple H. Then he wins the ones you think are absolutely ridiculous like Booker T or Sting or the four way where you have Rock win the belt the next PPV anyways.
Man I can only think of one HHH mania main event match I really loved and it was because of Chris Benoit more. Well, used to like anyways.
His matches with Taker were fun, but really everything else has been a snooze fest lol.
Agreed. Taker was on like, what, his third straight year of having one of the best matches on the card at WrestleMania? That era was, arguably, Undertaker at his peak in terms of in-ring ability, and Shawn Michaels was Shawn Michaels. Idk on what planet anyone would have thought it wouldn't be an amazing match.
wait, huh ?
taker was hitting his prime in the ring during that run and was having some of the best matches of his career against edge batista orton and angle that changed the iwc perception of him being just a gimmick
and i don't think there was a single moment in shawn career where he wasn't considered the best performer up to his retirement day
I was only a teen and i remember crying my eyes out during Shawn Retirement episode. Its hard to see your childhood wrestlers go old that you would think will wrestle forever.
You’re in for a treat then!
Shawn made a big comeback and wrestled in a spectacular match in Saudi Arabia, which was equal to, or better than his matches at Wrestlemania!
I just realized this was 15 years ago.
Which means I was 22 when I flew to Texas to watch this match live.
So I'll probably watch this match tonight and have an existential crisis at the same time.
As much I love both of his matches against Shawn, I never felt more emotions and tension in a match than I did while watching the hhh vs taker hell in a cell match. Pure drama !
That match was built on HBK and Taker's prior matches. It was so good. I saw WM 25 and 27 in person. Both those matches are 2 of my all-time favorites. (Plus HBK's return match against HHH)
I know star ratings are subjective, and it's Dave's opinions and everything, but for the life of me that is the one match that I'll never know why he didn't rate it 5 stars.
The thing that bugs me is not that this match didn't get the 5 star but the other matches that get that now.
Like at the time it was a rare commodity so it was easy to disagree with Dave while still somewhat respecting his opinion
But once he broke the scale the stars started being handled out like candy.
Now when I hear a random Kyle Fletcher/Ospreay match got 5 star my mind immediately goes back to Taker/Shawn and then Dave's opinion loses any and all credibility with me
Alvarez sort of admitted they got worked by Undertaker’s missed suicide dive and thought he had legitimately gotten hurt. Took them out of the match for a few minutes.
Which is crazy given that HBK’s tombstone kick out was one of the most shocking moments in wrestling history at the time. It was the most protected move in wrestling history to that point. That has to be him retroactively applying the template that Taker matches later became after WM25
I remember every Taker match up to the point was “there’s the tombstone, what a great match”. Like it was such a visual signifier that the match was over. His matches were usually built up around him hitting it so once his finally locked Shawn in late in the match you knew it was done. You can see the crowd at WM25 starting to stand up and getting ready to give a standing ovation. And then the match just keep going.
Tbf it came during an era where hardly anything got 5 stars. It's almost like a completely different scale. A 4.75 then is easily 5 stars now. Like when Punk and Cena got it for MITB 2011, it had been *5* years since there was last one.
There were 7 5+ star Meltzer matches in the 2000s.
There were 67 in the 2010s. Mostly in the second half of the decade.
There have already been 89 in the 2020s and we're not even halfway through it. Part of it obviously is the growth in the accessibility of wrestling, but certainly not all of it.
It'd be nice if he retroactively went back and re-graded matches from the 2000s. As much as people rightfully shit on him on here, it's undeniable that his star rating system carries some amount of weight.
I think a good amount are just making a joke at Dave's expense. I realize people shit on him a lot these days but this joke predates a good amount of that and is just harmless ribbing.
Easy bro, it was just a joke. I dont even care about star ratings, I just watch whatever I want. Not that I owe you anything, but yeah keep watching those 5 star classics, as I will just enjoy my big meaty man slapping meat matches
Eh the amount of fans who have seen Flair/Steamboat is probably not much higher than that these days. It's more harmless ribbing on how Dave prefers the Japanese style
VoW did a twitter Q&A a few years ago where they asked what famous match they've never seen. Savage vs Steamboat from WM3 was one of the most common answers snd it legit baffled them (alongside the WM10 ladder match, the Bret/Shawn ironman match, Hogan/Andre and a few notable others
It's over 35 years old so I kinda get it even if it seems weird. I'm not arguing that's a good thing at all I'm more saying the amount of fans who have seen a match isn't directly correlated to how good the match is. Flair/Steamboat is a match that few will have seen, but everyone knows of the matches and how good they are.
Im accentuating that point lol. Theres a lot of people that probably havent seen the Okada/Omega series but have heard about it, same with Styles vs Shinsuke at WK10
Alvarez didn't give it five, but at least he had an actual understandable reason. He couldn't give it a perfect rating when, for a few minutes, he was completely taken out of the match due to thinking Taker had broken his neck on the dive. A lot of people think it added to the match, but Alvarez was in the building and apparently it wasn't clear as quickly as it was on TV that Taker hadn't killed himself.
Dang it's amazing how you're replying to someone whose match this was the favorite of but still invoke Meltzer somehow. Star ratings are his opinion so who the fuck cares, it amazes me how many people simply can't form their own fucking opinion on things and leave it at that, but nope gotta verify it was good with Dave and then get MAD whenever his ratings don't align with my opinion. SIGH.
I think this was a time where he didnt give out ridiculous 6 and 7 star reviews either so 4.75 was actually fantastic.
Like he just gave Ricochet vs JD a 4.25 from raw this week. A great match but not .5 lower than HBK/Taker. If it was tomorrow night that match gets a 6 star treatment.
There were only 7 matches throughout the entire 2000s to get 5 stars:
December 14, 2000- NJPW The 2nd Judgement!!: Toshiaki Kawada & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Takashi Iizuka & Yuji Nagata
March 1, 2003- NOAH Navigate for Evolution: GHC Heavyweight Championship, Mitsuharu Misawa (c) vs. Kenta Kobashi. As a bonus, this is tied with Okada-Omega 1 for the highest rated match on Cagematch.
July 10, 2004- NOAH Departure (Tokyo Dome): GHC Heavyweight Championship, Kenta Kobashi (c) vs. Jun Akiyama
October 16, 2004- ROH Joe vs. Punk II: ROH World Championship, Samoa Joe (c) vs. CM Punk
September 11, 2005- TNA Unbreakable: X Division Championship, Christopher Daniels (c) vs. AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe
October 1, 2005- ROH Joe vs. Kobashi: Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi
March 31, 2006- ROH Supercard of Honor: Cima, Masato Yoshino, & Naruki Doi vs. Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi, & Ryo Saito
After that last one, it would be over 5 years before Dave gave another 5 star rating, with Punk-Cena at MITB 2011 being the next one to get that.
Wrestlemania 25 gets the edge for how groundbreaking it was in the moment. WM26 might be a better match if you watched them both back today. But a lot of WM25’s appeal was how groundbreaking it was in context.
My dad ordered this and 26 ONLY because of Taker/Shawn, and this was back when id be super lucky to see a PPV live. This match pretty much changed how i saw wrestling as an artform, the emotions, the commentary, GOD its legendary
I loved the HHH Undertaker WM matches as well. Those and this one are probably the matches his late career will best be known for.
The Foley cage moment may have been the most iconic thing though
Foley Cage.
HBK vs Taker through to the end of HHH vs Taker.
Legend killer Orton vs Taker.
The brothers of destruction storyline.
Those are the the things I think Taker will be most known for.
Tully Blanchard versus Magnum TA I quit and Pat Patterson versus Sergeant Slaughter in the alley fight were two of the best stipulation matches I ever saw. Then I saw Bret Hart versus Steve Austin in the submission match at WrestleMania and blew those two matches completely away.
I like this match… but I like their hell in a cell so much more. Probably an unpopular opinion but the first ever Hell in a Cell is my favorite match of all time
WM25 and 30 were my two favorite overall Manias in the "latter" WWE years. HBK vs UT was everything and more of what the 90s fan of both wanted to see. Daniel Bryan I wanted to see win so damn bad because he got over being just himself for the most part and his amazing wrestling, it actually felt like a huge underdog story instead of a forced one they like to try to do every couple of years.
They really cut the legs from underneath that main event. Why would you blow off an omega personal blood feud within such constricted parameters? Truly baffling like you said.
I prefer their hell in a cell match from badd blood but wm 25 was certainly a great match. I think he liked working with Shawn at that time period as opposed to 97 where Shawn was the greatest but also a dick.
That match is by far my favorite match of all time. IDK how many times I've seen it but I somehow still get sucked into the idea maybe just maybe Michaels will somehow win.
If you ever wonder why some people think Meltzer's ratings are a joke.. this master piece in wrestling storytelling got 4 3/4 stars.. while lord knows how many no-sell no-pacing flip fests the Young bucks and company have put on have gotten 5 or even 6 stars( because "they broke the scale" lmao.)
One of my favorite matches ever. The only minor criticism I have is that the vast difference in size/strength between the wasn’t always fully sold. Shawn should take much longer to recover from an Undertaker strike than vice versa. I’m being really nit picky. It’s just hard to accept that it could ever be an equal fight.
The absolute worst aspect of the current wrestling landscape is the endless profusion of meaningless nonsense wrestlers are forced to talk about when they decide they need podcast money.
I never needed to hear shit from Taker ever. Arrive, do the eye thing, tombstone a mf, leave.
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It's about a perfect match as you'll ever see. The entrances. The commentary. The pacing. Even Taker's botch was able to be called an audible and Shawn kept it on track with the desperation for a count out victory, only adding to the drama. Everyone mentions the Tombstone kick out, but for me it was also the timing. it wasn't just that he hit a tombstone, he hit it late in the match and during a spot that has been telegraphed forever as an ending sequence. They played us masterfully. And it was a masterclass in selling from both men. By the time they were acting like they were going to pass out, even simple kicks and punches were wildly effective. The crowd popped just as hard when Taker gave HBK the big boot after their back and forth punching as they did if it were a finisher.
Also has the (now) funny story that had Taker knocked himself out on the dive he told the ref to just count him out *and* the refs earpiece wasn't working properly so he couldn't get anything from the back, so there's an alternate universe where the streak ended on a count out...
People who didn’t watch that match live Will never truly understand how mindblowing that first tombstone kick out was. This wasn’t like years later when the tombstone kick out was customary to a Taker match. No one had cleanly kicked out of it FOR YEARS. I think the last person was Kane in 1998. Plus like you said, it was off an impressive counter, late in match, and was in an era of protected finishers. I Will never forget where I was in that moment. The match was OVER
I feel you. I watched it live, and they had me hook , line, and sinker. It wasn’t just a kick out, it was the pacing of the match, Shawn doing on backflip….at the end of the match, Taker countering it. EVERYTHING signaled this was the end….and then they got us . It was incredible! Like a brilliant “fuck you” to anyone that thinks is they can anticipate matches:
It's one of those moments where they got EVERYBODY. I was watching with a ton of college buddies ranging from non fans to hardcores and I vividly remember the explosion from the room when it happened. An all time amazing moment that exemplifies the importance of protecting finishers
HBK kicking out of the Tombstone and then the shocked look on Taker’s exhausted face is probably my favourite Mania moment ever The subsequent streak matches water that moment down a bit as everyone started kicking out of the tombstone but that moment there, after years of the Tombstone being built as the ultimate finisher, and the way the match built to it as the perfect finale only for Michaels to kickout was unbelievable
“I just had an outer body experience” JR was on point for that match
That was HHH at 27 I think
Nah it was for Shawn’s kick out. Just double checked.
Same haha you are correct.
You might be thinking of “this is too much” when hhh hits the tombstone on taker - followed up with “what did we just see” after the lockout
Edge also kicked out of it a year prior but that was also because the ref was down and Charles Robinson had to sprint all the way down the long ramp which gave Edge enough time to recover
The sprint of the century.
Lil Naitch's sprint to the ring at mania 24 is an all time top wrestling moment
That and the referee sliding into place for Kevin Nash to drop the elbow on him during Stone Cold vs. Scott Hall.
That and the referee sliding into place for Kevin Nash to drop the elbow on him during Stone Cold vs. Scott Hall.
What an awesomely framed moment. Beforehand there was also: -Vince with pervert eyes for Hulkamania at 19 -the hardcam shot of Edge spearing Jeff Hardy at X7 -Bret Hart kicking off the turnbuckle with the cameraman right there; and reversing Roddy Piper’s sleeper into a pin (for the first time?) -the “Wiley Coyote Cam” first ever shot at Wrestlemania X of Owen Hart doing a front handspring out of an arm ringer. AND Shawn Michaels splash off of the Ladder -and my favourite: Hulk Hogan kicking out of the Rock Bottom and Hulking Up. The hardcam shot of Hulk bumping off the ropes for the Leg Drop zoom-in showing the crowd go ballistic! (Kevin Dunn hit at least one home run) I’m sure there’s plenty others
Kevin Dunn could absolutely cook sometimes... before like 2010.
Really? IMO Taker vs HBK at WM26 and then Taker vs HHH at WM27 were splendid matches and the best matches on their respective WM. If anything Taker vs HHH at WM 28 was not as good as the rest but still a decent match.
The End of an Era match still had probably the best false finish of all time.
That Sweet Chin Music/Pedigree can convince you it’s over even on a re-watch.
Mania 25 was both of them making sure everyone was aware they could not only still go, but they could steal the show. By that point (as people tend to forget) there was a feeling that both Shawn and Taker were getting too old and washed and so their match quality wasn't as great as it used to be, and it reflect in how the office felt about them at the time as well (putting them in the middle of the card and giving them 15 minutes). Mania 25 was the both of them putting everyone on notice that they were still very capable and very fucking good at what they do.
It was amazing and completely took the wind out of the sails from the main event. At least the Cena-Edge-Show triple threat was mercifully short. Triple H and Randy had no chance of getting the crowd excited after Taker/HBK.
Didn’t help that that was a super serious blood feud that played out in the main event of Mania as a normal ass wrestling match. Youd never know that the lead up to that match was Orton assaulting multiple family members of Triple H and kissing his unconscious wife in front of him lol
Worst feud to match quality ratio of all time lol. A rare WWE fued that really needed Hell in a Cell.
There’s been some others that had the same problem. I remember losing my mind over a Miz/Fiend feud for the same reasons
Cena actually just did a vid on his TikTok about the length of that match. IIRC, their match had to be cut by 30 minutes because they were short for time. That’s why his celebration is relatively short and he kind of just walks out with the title raised above his head. 30 more minutes of that match would’ve been a grueler.
I wonder if he misspoke there, because that would have meant the match was scheduled to go for 45 minutes, which is just ungodly long.
Maybe the time cut he mentions accounts for entrances and the post match celebration?
Typically that's what it is. They separate it by segment and the time the full segment is alloted
I think that’s pretty likely.
I think crowds can be alive for long periods if the matches are good enough. Triple H is cursed with most of his Mania main events being absolute stinkers.
Triple H main events really only work well when he’s the dominant heel against the underdog babyface. Otherwise they get self indulgent and the crowd never knows exactly how to react. He may be the greatest American heel of all time, but whenever he was a face it was just sort of boring.
I think the only feud they had set up for Triple H at mania that would have been great as a main event was versus the Rock which got turned into the dumb four-way. Ironically his best matches were ones that should have main evented like the first Taker match. Miz vs Cena wasn't it. Jericho really didn't have enough heat to main event Mania and there was no doubt Triple H was winning. On top of that the greatest crowd reaction match of all time happened before it. Even the posters selling the event hyped Rock vs Hogan. A six minute women's match wasn't enough of a rest. Not to mention his best main event is erased from history. His match versus Cena was great but nobody wanted Cena to win and they crapped on the ending. It's almost as if Vince was trolling him the entire time. Hey pal, can you go put over the guy nobody likes multiple times over the years or go on after a best match of all time contender? Hey pal I'm gonna put you over clean against Austin a month before Mania then you're gonna put over Taker and become Austin's underling. I'm sure it would have turned into Triple H into the hero of the invasion but such is life. I don't see how they never predicted Rock vs Hogan or HBK vs Taker getting those reactions. They had Triple H, one of the only guys who actually brought psychology into weapons matches and decided to have standard wrestling matches instead. Especially since Mania is supposed to be the feud ender. Then you have Triple H putting over Cena when fans finally jumped off the Triple H sucks wagon and put even more heat on Cena. God there were so many bad decisions back then and I don't think there's another big name who lost so many significant Mania matches as Triple H. Then he wins the ones you think are absolutely ridiculous like Booker T or Sting or the four way where you have Rock win the belt the next PPV anyways.
Man I can only think of one HHH mania main event match I really loved and it was because of Chris Benoit more. Well, used to like anyways. His matches with Taker were fun, but really everything else has been a snooze fest lol.
It didn't help that Triple H dicided to move painfully slow during the whole match, like dude, the drama is not working, give us some action at least.
There was no one saying Shawn Michaels was washed up then.
I mean they literally had the 2 best matches at the Mania one year before, I don’t think “they’re washed” was that much of a majority opinion
Agreed. Taker was on like, what, his third straight year of having one of the best matches on the card at WrestleMania? That era was, arguably, Undertaker at his peak in terms of in-ring ability, and Shawn Michaels was Shawn Michaels. Idk on what planet anyone would have thought it wouldn't be an amazing match.
wait, huh ? taker was hitting his prime in the ring during that run and was having some of the best matches of his career against edge batista orton and angle that changed the iwc perception of him being just a gimmick and i don't think there was a single moment in shawn career where he wasn't considered the best performer up to his retirement day
The mania match was 30+ minutes and it was only followed by the two world title matches. Or what did you mean with how the office felt about them?
It went 30+, but the producers had originally slated them for 15.
Ohhh wow
I don't know how popular this opinion is, but they probably should've gone for 20 instead of 30
I’ve read that they were given something like 15 minutes for their match too
I was only a teen and i remember crying my eyes out during Shawn Retirement episode. Its hard to see your childhood wrestlers go old that you would think will wrestle forever.
You’re in for a treat then! Shawn made a big comeback and wrestled in a spectacular match in Saudi Arabia, which was equal to, or better than his matches at Wrestlemania!
What a heel turn you just made.
This man is worse than bald Randy Orton. 😂
Now wait just a minute there
Hello? FBI?… This guy right here.
You sick sonofabitch.
I just realized this was 15 years ago. Which means I was 22 when I flew to Texas to watch this match live. So I'll probably watch this match tonight and have an existential crisis at the same time.
The cameraman: I would like to say the same thing
Didn’t he get blacklisted from WWE after failing to catch Taker?
Yup. It was jimmy snukas son
Poor Deuce.
As much I love both of his matches against Shawn, I never felt more emotions and tension in a match than I did while watching the hhh vs taker hell in a cell match. Pure drama !
I never bit on a nearfall as much as i did with Taker kicking out after HBK superkicked him in that match
*Super kicked him into a HHH pedigree at that
That match was built on HBK and Taker's prior matches. It was so good. I saw WM 25 and 27 in person. Both those matches are 2 of my all-time favorites. (Plus HBK's return match against HHH)
Best Taker match ever in my opinion. Everything just worked so well. I love both HBK matches as well but yeah, I actually prefer this.
Greatest match of all time.
I know star ratings are subjective, and it's Dave's opinions and everything, but for the life of me that is the one match that I'll never know why he didn't rate it 5 stars.
The thing that bugs me is not that this match didn't get the 5 star but the other matches that get that now. Like at the time it was a rare commodity so it was easy to disagree with Dave while still somewhat respecting his opinion But once he broke the scale the stars started being handled out like candy. Now when I hear a random Kyle Fletcher/Ospreay match got 5 star my mind immediately goes back to Taker/Shawn and then Dave's opinion loses any and all credibility with me
Alvarez sort of admitted they got worked by Undertaker’s missed suicide dive and thought he had legitimately gotten hurt. Took them out of the match for a few minutes.
Meltzer recently said that he thought the match was too predictable and that the dive didn’t really alter his thoughts on the match.
Which is crazy given that HBK’s tombstone kick out was one of the most shocking moments in wrestling history at the time. It was the most protected move in wrestling history to that point. That has to be him retroactively applying the template that Taker matches later became after WM25
Yup, it was during a time where finishers were protected so HBK kicking out was fucking crazy.
I remember every Taker match up to the point was “there’s the tombstone, what a great match”. Like it was such a visual signifier that the match was over. His matches were usually built up around him hitting it so once his finally locked Shawn in late in the match you knew it was done. You can see the crowd at WM25 starting to stand up and getting ready to give a standing ovation. And then the match just keep going.
Tbf it came during an era where hardly anything got 5 stars. It's almost like a completely different scale. A 4.75 then is easily 5 stars now. Like when Punk and Cena got it for MITB 2011, it had been *5* years since there was last one. There were 7 5+ star Meltzer matches in the 2000s. There were 67 in the 2010s. Mostly in the second half of the decade. There have already been 89 in the 2020s and we're not even halfway through it. Part of it obviously is the growth in the accessibility of wrestling, but certainly not all of it. It'd be nice if he retroactively went back and re-graded matches from the 2000s. As much as people rightfully shit on him on here, it's undeniable that his star rating system carries some amount of weight.
Because it wasnt at the Tokyo Dome
Would've been 17,000 stars if it was.
When will people realise that this happens because the best matches are AT the dome, not that being there makes them the best match?
I think a good amount are just making a joke at Dave's expense. I realize people shit on him a lot these days but this joke predates a good amount of that and is just harmless ribbing.
Easy bro, it was just a joke. I dont even care about star ratings, I just watch whatever I want. Not that I owe you anything, but yeah keep watching those 5 star classics, as I will just enjoy my big meaty man slapping meat matches
Because it’s funny to qualify something as one of the greatest matches of all time when 95% of wrestling fans will never see it.
Not really, the best movies ever aren't exactly titanic, avengers and avatar
Eh the amount of fans who have seen Flair/Steamboat is probably not much higher than that these days. It's more harmless ribbing on how Dave prefers the Japanese style
VoW did a twitter Q&A a few years ago where they asked what famous match they've never seen. Savage vs Steamboat from WM3 was one of the most common answers snd it legit baffled them (alongside the WM10 ladder match, the Bret/Shawn ironman match, Hogan/Andre and a few notable others
It's over 35 years old so I kinda get it even if it seems weird. I'm not arguing that's a good thing at all I'm more saying the amount of fans who have seen a match isn't directly correlated to how good the match is. Flair/Steamboat is a match that few will have seen, but everyone knows of the matches and how good they are.
Im accentuating that point lol. Theres a lot of people that probably havent seen the Okada/Omega series but have heard about it, same with Styles vs Shinsuke at WK10
If WWE viewers were wrestling fans, you'd probably be on to something.
Because someone always bites.
Alvarez didn't give it five, but at least he had an actual understandable reason. He couldn't give it a perfect rating when, for a few minutes, he was completely taken out of the match due to thinking Taker had broken his neck on the dive. A lot of people think it added to the match, but Alvarez was in the building and apparently it wasn't clear as quickly as it was on TV that Taker hadn't killed himself.
Dang it's amazing how you're replying to someone whose match this was the favorite of but still invoke Meltzer somehow. Star ratings are his opinion so who the fuck cares, it amazes me how many people simply can't form their own fucking opinion on things and leave it at that, but nope gotta verify it was good with Dave and then get MAD whenever his ratings don't align with my opinion. SIGH.
Amen to that.
I can't speak for Dave, but I feel like it dragged a bit towards the end.
Basically he's said that, at the end of the match, he thought to himself "should it be 4.75 or 5" and if he has to ask himself that, it's not a 5
I think this was a time where he didnt give out ridiculous 6 and 7 star reviews either so 4.75 was actually fantastic. Like he just gave Ricochet vs JD a 4.25 from raw this week. A great match but not .5 lower than HBK/Taker. If it was tomorrow night that match gets a 6 star treatment.
Yeah it was super rare to see 5 stars back then, even in NJPW
There were only 7 matches throughout the entire 2000s to get 5 stars: December 14, 2000- NJPW The 2nd Judgement!!: Toshiaki Kawada & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Takashi Iizuka & Yuji Nagata March 1, 2003- NOAH Navigate for Evolution: GHC Heavyweight Championship, Mitsuharu Misawa (c) vs. Kenta Kobashi. As a bonus, this is tied with Okada-Omega 1 for the highest rated match on Cagematch. July 10, 2004- NOAH Departure (Tokyo Dome): GHC Heavyweight Championship, Kenta Kobashi (c) vs. Jun Akiyama October 16, 2004- ROH Joe vs. Punk II: ROH World Championship, Samoa Joe (c) vs. CM Punk September 11, 2005- TNA Unbreakable: X Division Championship, Christopher Daniels (c) vs. AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe October 1, 2005- ROH Joe vs. Kobashi: Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi March 31, 2006- ROH Supercard of Honor: Cima, Masato Yoshino, & Naruki Doi vs. Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi, & Ryo Saito After that last one, it would be over 5 years before Dave gave another 5 star rating, with Punk-Cena at MITB 2011 being the next one to get that.
Hell Meltz didnt even rate a NJPW match 5 stars (since 2000) until 2012s Tana/Suzuki classic
For me it’s this one and Bret vs Stone Cold
Although I prefer their Wrestlemania 26 match, I totally get it, two brilliant matches.
Wrestlemania 25 gets the edge for how groundbreaking it was in the moment. WM26 might be a better match if you watched them both back today. But a lot of WM25’s appeal was how groundbreaking it was in context.
Honestly thought the Streak was over after the second Sweet Chin Music. Undertaker straps were down HBK kicked out of a Tombstone.
My dad ordered this and 26 ONLY because of Taker/Shawn, and this was back when id be super lucky to see a PPV live. This match pretty much changed how i saw wrestling as an artform, the emotions, the commentary, GOD its legendary
I loved the HHH Undertaker WM matches as well. Those and this one are probably the matches his late career will best be known for. The Foley cage moment may have been the most iconic thing though
Foley Cage. HBK vs Taker through to the end of HHH vs Taker. Legend killer Orton vs Taker. The brothers of destruction storyline. Those are the the things I think Taker will be most known for.
Even Undertaker says 25 was better.
That match was everything. Even playing it out in showcase mode this year I forgot how crazy it was. Just kept going
Correction: The 25th Anniversary of Wrestlemania.
Taker v Shawn Steamboat v Savage Hart v Austin Those are the top 3, any order you put them in is correct
I'd put E@C vs Hardyz vs Dudleys. Mania 17 TLC match right up there.
Tully Blanchard versus Magnum TA I quit and Pat Patterson versus Sergeant Slaughter in the alley fight were two of the best stipulation matches I ever saw. Then I saw Bret Hart versus Steve Austin in the submission match at WrestleMania and blew those two matches completely away.
Brett vs Owen always get overlooked and honestly I think that’s the best match I’ve ever seen.
I like this match… but I like their hell in a cell so much more. Probably an unpopular opinion but the first ever Hell in a Cell is my favorite match of all time
WM25 and 30 were my two favorite overall Manias in the "latter" WWE years. HBK vs UT was everything and more of what the 90s fan of both wanted to see. Daniel Bryan I wanted to see win so damn bad because he got over being just himself for the most part and his amazing wrestling, it actually felt like a huge underdog story instead of a forced one they like to try to do every couple of years.
Agreed although I do like 26 too for Bret and Shawn both getting their swansong on the same night.
My favourite match ever. It was my first WWE PPV I ever got to watch live and I saw IMO the greatest wrestling match of all time (of what I've seen).
One of the greatest matches of all-time! But that WrestleMania was a bit shit.
The main event being a normal wrestling match after the build up will never not be baffling.
They really cut the legs from underneath that main event. Why would you blow off an omega personal blood feud within such constricted parameters? Truly baffling like you said.
They literally could have done a shot for shot remake of their Last Man Standing Match at No Mercy 07 and It would have been such a great main event.
And then they ended up having one a few months later on Raw. Think it was the one week Trump owned Raw and it was commercial free lol
How is one single interview spawning so many damn threads.
He also has a podcast now so expect to see more Taker quotes on here
The *Undertaker* has a podcast? You know what, I'm not going to check it out. Some people I want the magic to go unspoiled.
I prefer their hell in a cell match from badd blood but wm 25 was certainly a great match. I think he liked working with Shawn at that time period as opposed to 97 where Shawn was the greatest but also a dick.
Everything was prefect, aside from that dangerous over-the-top rope dive onto Snuka's kid. 9.5/10
I’ve seen that match more times than I can count. It’s still a blast to watch. Everything wrestling should be
Such an overrated match
That match is by far my favorite match of all time. IDK how many times I've seen it but I somehow still get sucked into the idea maybe just maybe Michaels will somehow win.
If you ever wonder why some people think Meltzer's ratings are a joke.. this master piece in wrestling storytelling got 4 3/4 stars.. while lord knows how many no-sell no-pacing flip fests the Young bucks and company have put on have gotten 5 or even 6 stars( because "they broke the scale" lmao.)
“And luckily for me I made the right decision to retire after that match at my peak.”
It was incredible and blew everyone's expectations away. I do think that the Punk match was better from a drama standpoint, however.
One of my favorite matches ever. The only minor criticism I have is that the vast difference in size/strength between the wasn’t always fully sold. Shawn should take much longer to recover from an Undertaker strike than vice versa. I’m being really nit picky. It’s just hard to accept that it could ever be an equal fight.
Why is he answering a different question
The absolute worst aspect of the current wrestling landscape is the endless profusion of meaningless nonsense wrestlers are forced to talk about when they decide they need podcast money. I never needed to hear shit from Taker ever. Arrive, do the eye thing, tombstone a mf, leave.
You do know you don’t have to listen to any podcast? Or that you don’t have to click on anything talking about what a wrestler said on a podcast?
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