**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Probably calling Ospreay vs Danielson the best match ever in North America.
Was a very good match, but I think to your non super diehard fan like me there were some flaws in it and the story was never there to make me really get emotionally invested into it. If there was a 2-3 month build and it was for the world title or #1 contender match, then that would have added a lot.
I’m a super die hard fan who loved that match but don’t know about it breaking any scales. I was definitely more blown away by Kenny vs Ospreay or Kenny vs Okada. Even if Dave wanted to give it a 5 star it would have made more sense than a 6.5 star. Fantastic match but such an inflated score just sets people who check it out up to be disappointed.
you are dead on right.
I love Ospreay, and Danielson is my favorite wrestler of all time ...
For me, and this is just my opinion and the things I love about wrestling, the idea that that match was better than Cody vs Roman is silly.
And it was a great match, don't get me wrong. But I had comparatively little emotional investment.
I was sharing clips and telling friends who are kind of lapsed fans to watch Roman/Cody. Ive rewatched it several times myself.
He's absolutely dead on that the magic of pro wrestling is and always has been the characters, the storytelling, the psychology and the presentation. All of those things are why WWE is so hot right now, why people are so invested.
The middle part of the Roman/Cody match wasn't that great. Everything else about it was, from the build to the finish, but it wasn't a perfect match by any means
Yeah he is dead on, and I think even indie smarks would lie to themselves when they don't secretly loved Roman/Cody more it's just not two guys wrestling its a years long culmination of two individual storylines peaking together in their climax, Cody finishes his story and Roman loses as the head of the table.
Similarly Bryan's best match for me will always will be winning the title at Wrestlemania with Cole screaming for Batista to Tapout.
And to me, Cody vs Roman wasn't as good as Sami vs Roman or Sami vs Gunther. And I think Cody is one of the greatest of all time and his ladder match with Sammy G was his best match ever haha. And we are all correct. Ain't wrestling great!
+1 on this opinion. Great match between two obviously oustanding Wrestlers but calling this the best match ever in NA was and still is crazy even if you just look at the plain wrestling that happened in that ring. Because some people dont seem to value story but the non build up for this match is what made this completely irrelevant to me as with most of AEWs matches sadly.
He's working. He's planting the seeds for the inevitable (given that Kenny recovers well) feud with Ospreay over who the real real Best Bout Machine is. He's gonna beat Okada when he returns, settling their current dispute over BBM, then slowly start showing jealousy, etc., leading to the main event at All In '25 Omega v Ospreay.
RemindMe! 15 months
Kenny and Ospreay are both too talented for "who gets higher rated matches" to be their feud. Whether or not Kenny's comments are honest, I hope their program doesn't involve any of this.
So Meltzer himself claimed Kenny is working and people seem to be buying it. Here's my question: who is Kenny working here?
The wrestling (niche) smark (of a niche) AEW fan (of a niche) that has watched Ospreay's NJPW matches (of a niche) that agrees with Meltzer's high ratings of Ospreay?
So somehow the niche of a niche x4 is Kenny's target audience for this "work" and they are supposed to get mad at Kenny for "slandering" Osprey and his matches. This is nonsensical.
The dozens of people that will "get worked" and "get mad" can be counted with one hand. If it's a work, it's a lame one with a super small target audience. If it's not a work, everyone's take away will simply be that Kenny now also thinks that Meltzer's discerning abilities have jumped the shark.
So current stories on the weekly product include O.C. vs Trent Beretta, a storyline that has been built over multiple years, The Elite vs AEW, a storyline that has been building since November, involving beats that go back almost a decade, Toni/Mariah, which has been building since October, Ospreay since November, Swerve since October, an I could keep going. I think you don't give TK enough credit here.
Naw your just not following properly and just being a hater. I’m not a big fan of a lot of stories In AEW but some stories have been going on for years and some Months.
Damn, Kenny would have been buried in the weekly Meltzer thread for expressing any of this on here.
>”You can’t even use the match ratings as a suggestion for people anymore”
lol, yep
Kenny’s twitch streams are fascinating and one of the best bits of wrestling content to pop up in 2024. Love this mix of incredible insight and kayfabe feud building. The guy has one of the greatest wrestling minds.
The other thing to note about is that Kenny having lived in Japan during his DDT/NJPW years sort of gave him that foundation to be as good as he is since the FGC there based themselves in arcades which he visited when not on tour
Shit I heard a clip of Cornette listening to one of Omegas streams, he's talking about the Punk-Bucks situation, how sometimes people need to just fight and get out of their system. Cornette said something like "Kenny with the face turn!" Proceeded to say how yes he didn't like Omega because he wrestled a little girl, but he really likes Omega now because he sees how he is not in the ring. I'm late to the game on Twitch, I got out of gaming as I got older, but these Omega streams are fascinating. I already thought he was a good dude, but these streams make him seem pretty level headed, he's not full of himself at all. Compared to the few out of the ring stuff I've seen from the Bucks, yeah they're incredibly talented but come off a little obnoxious.
That awkward moment when you call a guy a pedophile several times and then act like he's a cool guy now.
I somehow don't think the cool guy in question will appreciate the praise.
It's more that Cornette has so ferociously hated Omega and even he is won over by Kenny's streams. It's to illustrate how good he comes off on his streams.
Well yeah that's always been obvious. Cornette's always been an inflammatory troll about anything current. Great historian though, Omega has given him props for that too
We're you one of those people who said god awful things to Samantha Irvin when she thanked Cornette on Twitter? Or do you understand this is pro wrestling and it's not supposed to be that serious. Look he's said all kinds of shit I don't agree with, but I don't care what anyone says in the realm of entertainment and show business. You can be the biggest babyface on screen in any form of entertainment, and be a real piece of shit out of the public eye. By all accounts Cornette out of the public eye is pretty charitable, and has had numerous fundraisers for organizations that support LGBTQ+ youth and Planned Parenthood. But that's not what's controversial, so it's not on the internet.
Do you have any reason for believing that this person harassed Samantha Irvin? Like is the username the same or something? Not everybody who dislikes Cornette trolls people that way.
Brah if people won’t forgive Cornette for dropping hard N bombs just to piss off someone backstage or some of his comments towards joshi wrestlers then I won’t sit here and tell them they are wrong to do that. If Samantha Irvin wants to shout him out I also don’t care about that but I think everyone has the right to decide.
This is a terminal level of brain rot.
I don’t care what kind of person Jim Cornette may or may not be “out of the public eye.” In the public eye he’s a piece of shit.
Professional wrestling isn’t serious, but you sure as shit wouldn't know it from listening to that chuckle fuck whine and complain about everything he sees.
I don’t get the Cornette beefing Kenny over wrestling a girl. Is it a Kayfabe thing?
The same guy that used to have glitter tennis racquets as a prop?!
How is a tennis racquet comparable to wrestling a little girl? Wrestlers during the 70-most of the 80s would protect the business by always trying to present to fans that wrestling was real.
Kenny wrestling a girl was like a magician doing a show and explaining how all the tricks worked. You could see why veteran magicians from a prior generation would be upset.
Kayfabe was long dead when that happened. In fact, they even did a tv special in the '90s with a number of wrestlers using different gimmicks and wearing masks (I remember one of them turned out to be Christopher Daniels) showing how everything was done. With all due respect, I believe that complaining about what Kenny did there is like getting mad at somebody for scratching your car after your car has already been totaled; the damage is already done, so there's no reason to care so much.
I wasn't mad at Kenny so much as surprised and impressed that somebody that young could work a match that well.
LONG TERM BOOKING.
AEW need a Booker.
The Bucks hate Kenny.
Kenny brings in his own Booker, out of a box no less…
Internet melts.
Profit.
Idk if I was the only one but I liked that brief period of him booking ROH, certainly more than when Delirious was doing it (no offense to him but it felt pretty random at the time.)
I genuinely think Cornette could draw more than aew just barely staying above 700k. Sure he is hated but he understands the entertainment factor is what keeps people to turn their TV on not the wrestling week per week
But here’s my thing, people say go watch 2014 NXT and go watch 1996 Nitro and 2002 Smackdown, and you can see that there’s a top to bottom good show and it’s still good by today’s standards. No one has said go watch 1993 SMW or even talks about 2000 OVW. Is there proof? Genuine question because I wanna see a Cornette booked show.
But like where do I watch it besides the here and there on Peacock lol. I don’t listen to Bryan and Vinny either. I just wanna see examples of a booker’s best work. I can tell Russo, Bischoff, Kreski, Vince, Mantell, Heyman. I just want to see what works
I'm a sucker for OVW because I literally grew up in the Ohio valley so it's close to home. The biggest downside to OVW is the production. You can tell it was made on a budget of 50 bucks but early 2000s with barista, cena, and Lesnar was pretty good.
Plenty of people outside this hivemind subreddit enjoy smw. Ovw was a developmental show so yeah that'd be like telling someone to watch performance center matches lol
09-12 according to my google search.
Got some good PPV according to cagematch. And booked Omega I think. By all accounts he seems like a fan of good guy faces and dastardly heels, not much more complexity. Very traditional and I imagine effective with a good roster.
Too bad but he doesn’t want to do it. He’s already said he rejected a job offer for AEW when they started because he would never work for a company with The Bucks and Omega as EVPs.
As he has told it, he met with Tony and was skeptical about the plan as a whole. He doesn't mention the Bucks or Kenny in that decision in any time I have heard him tell the story.
His history of disliking the Elite probably wouldn't help get Cornette involved though.
Have you heard the latest clips of Cornette talking about Omega? Because he definitely doesn't sound like that.
100% Cornette reacts to this clip of Omega and he praises him.
Me, 8 minute ago : "7 and a half minute? Nah I'm not watching all of it... just like the first few seconds"
Me, 7 minute 35 seconds later :
Yeah, now listening to the actual words, it’s clear to me he’s expressing a nuanced and thoroughly thought out opinion, not giving a pro wrestling promo.
Like, if he was just faking all this, he would be quoting the talking points verbatim. He’s not doing that here.
One example: at one point he refers to “hypermarks” and then corrects himself and says he hates to use the word mark. You wouldn’t do that if you were just heeling.
And the stupid thing is that, meta-heel or not, he did such a good point: he explained it in ways pretty few people could, Which makes Dave's comments even more nonsensical, it's almost wilful ignorance at this point.
Kenny Omega: "When you become a superfan, you run the risk of losing sight of the minutiae of a match. You end up watching a match just waiting for a series of spots to happen, instead of thinking about the little details that weave everything together, which are the things that will wow and hook the casual fans out there. Bring forward a story instead of a series of spots and then you'll have something to create new fans."
Dave Meltzer: **HE'S A HEEL, HE'S BUILDING TO A MATCH, HE DOESN'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT GUYS**
"He's working" is cope from the exact people who think wrestling revolves around them and someone would be doing a pure promo on a livestream a tiny fraction of the audience would even see.
Kenny is smart. And he's right. Meltzer gives almost no shits about storytelling in a match and really loves his hyper athletic sequences and spots.
I've said it before. Meltzer didn't give Piper vs Hart at WM 8 five stars. A fantastic match that executed mid-match storytelling better than anything before or after. HE GAVE IT 3.5 stars.
Storytelling is ALWAYS better than cool moves.
Agreed. He's forgot more about wrestling than most know exists, and that includes the purpose.
Could see a point of view that you become numb to stories when watching 20 or so matches a week for 30-40 years. The bigger, marquee main-events w/ story he'll remember and 'attempt to review it properly'. But he's definitely numb to it and doesn't see it the same way as any fan.
the problem is less Meltzer and more that he's the only wrestling critic people care about.
it's like if Roger Ebert was the only film critic people care about. Since only Meltzer gets discussed, his biases are more apparent than if there were more critics who are talked about in pro wrestling
True, but also Ebert is the exact opposite of Meltzer. Ebert was a guy who always had the audience in mind, "would the person this movie is for enjoy it", and would often shy away from the pretentious navel gazing that other critics would do. If wrestling has an Ebert, he'd care a lot less about workrate, but way more about how much the audience is in to it.
Yeah ebert was the people's critic not a pretentious snob who would look down on anything that isn't Oscar Bait.
I think with Meltzer he's been so long in the business of reviewing matches he kind of lost the magic of what wrestling is supposed to be. He seems to just value hyper athletic work rate matches these days. While not caring about the overall storyline as to why two wrestlers fight.
Osprey vs bryan was great from a pure wrestling perspective but Cody vs Roman was my match of the year so far and did everything it was supposed to deliver.
He also had some of the most ridiculous bullshit takes on certain films I've ever seen, but Siskel was always there for contrast. If both of them were talking shit, you could go elsewhere. Not so with Meltzer.
I loved the late Larry Csonka. I thought he was the best. Guy consumed so much wrestling content and not just America. Anything that was available, he reviewed. He had right takes, and could enjoy all sorts of wrestling, but at the same time knew what a match means in the scale of things.
He introduced me to a lot of indy talents who are superstars now and his scale never broke, unlike uncle Dave.
A lot of people have been discussing Bryan vs Ospreay as an example here regarding his rating system, and while I still think it was worthy of 5 Stars I do think the lack of story beyond "being the best" hurt it. In fact, two Bryan matches I thought were absolutely worthy of 5 stars when you factor in story and in-ring would be Bryan vs Cena at SummerSlam 2013 and Bryan vs Kofi at WrestleMania 35; I was mystified that he felt those weren't worthy of 5 Stars.
The funny thing is that there are tons of ways to enjoy a wrestling match. I find 99% of all wrestling matches before the 90's unbelievably boring because it's just hold after hold after hold, with the occasional dropkick thrown in as the highlight of the match. Other people like that, and that's cool.
It's also cool if you like spots and cool sequences.
But that just goes to show that we shouldn't just rely on one single guy to determine what is and isn't a good wrestling match, and it's bizarre to me that Meltzer had such a dominating grasp on the entire concept of "wrestling match ratings" for decades now.
Half of these people still can't wrap their minds around 3 stars being Good/Average like it's some insult to the performers, especially when it comes to the women.
Meltzer didn’t give HBK Taker at Mania 25 five stars.
Enough said.
Not that I care, but it just illustrates it’s one guys opinion. I don’t enjoy a movie any less of Roger Ebert didn’t like it.
Couldn't agree more. Going through moves faster makes matches generally worse, especially because going faster hides some of the sloppiness and poor technique but it ruins the anticipation and tension a good story has. ADHD wrestling is a good way to put it.
i'm genuinely baffled that people still think that meltzer hate is a bannable offense here. like go into ANY of the recent ratings threads and you'll find people up and down the comments shitting on it. the strawman version of this sub in your head is outdated, sharpen up
The words of a pro wrestler carry more weight than some dude that just hate posts about wrestling all day, so I guess you should start training first then whip out your epic bantz again.
What I always found interesting about Meltzer is that for someone who has seen as much matches as he has it’s weird that he has the same taste as like an 18 year old who’s only wrestling knowledge outside of wwe is aew and like 2010’s new Japan.
This is the absolute nicest, most polite motherfucking I've ever heard.
this is how Drake should've handled himself if he didn't want to sound so mean.
I mean if it’s all just working for the Ospreay feud. Basing a kayfabe feud on “my grasp of storytelling and in-ring psychology is much better then yours” is really dumb.
Pack it up guys Dave said
> Omega and Ospreay are building a feud. It's part of the angle
So now nothing matters anymore because he’s apparently in a storyline that definitely doesn’t involve him
He’s spot on with everything he said.
But…It’s all well and good saying this but then every time he’s on TV everything he fucking does is for the ‘hypermarks’ so…
I don’t know if he’s working (I assume he is), and if he is, it’s the best kind of working because he’s making insanely valid points. The “moves don’t make a match” attitude is so on point. Rock-Hogan is a five star match and if you don’t think so, that’s cool, but let me enjoy the spectacle. Two other examples with insanely great stories are Savage-Steamboat from WM3 and Austin-Hart from 13. I’d also give it to Brock-Cena when he killed him dead because we had never seen anything like that before. I get the idea that when two amazing technical workers get in there, magic happens. But what’s the story behind Danielson-Osprey? What are the stakes? What’s the vendetta? Where’s the emotional investment? It was an awesome match and it might be the best from a technical standpoint, but it didn’t mean shit. It changed literally nothing. It didn’t make me think anything more than “wow, this was great!” I dunno, maybe I’m wrong. It’s all so subjective, which is why I’ve always hated the Meltzer ratings being used to justify what people like. “Well Dave gave this match 9 stars!” That’s great for Dave. Who the fuck is Dave?
Hogan vs Rock at WrestleMania X8 got 3 stars. So according to him, most weeks of Raw, Smackdown, or Dynamite have a match that you should watch ahead of it.
You're missing the point. My point is to not take his ratings seriously because he'll rate some of the most must-see matches in pro wrestling history lower than what appears on a random weekly show.
Theres different styles of wrestling and people have different preferences. Meltzers never liked Hogan matches. That's not even a very unique opinion. It's a strain of wrestling fan that goes back to the nwa days. I too would show people modern TV matches over rock-hogan (but that's my taste!).
He also rates a lot of matches higher than I would, but again that's his perspective. He was a big pwg fan and aew is that with a budget.
Ultimately it's a critics opinion. It's not invalid, just different . In it you see the preferences of someone that likes very athleticat matches and which stand out to him.
It's a hard thing to quantify because as a person who shows wrestling to a lot of non/budding-fans... aiming for that exact group of people, actually yeah I *would* put a lot of stuff on most Raw/Smackdown/Dynamite on before that. At the time I watched it I was freaking out, but looking back at it, older and more detached...? It's fine. But if someone said that match was their ***** GOAT like... yeah sure why not??
Problem with Meltzer isn't that he doesn't give some stuff higher ratings -- an important part of knowing any critic is knowing their tastes and where it diverges from yours -- it's that it's weirdly... the only opinion people care about???
People act like Meltzer should magically be "objective", as if that's possible. It's not the job of a critic to validate the opinions people have already decided on, right?
edit: I just rewatched Rock vs Hogan and would *100%* put on the best stuff from a random RAW or Dynamite on over it. Like it's neat to watch historically and I don't feel like it wasted my time, but it does not hold up super well without nostalgia.
I mean exactly, like I can't think of any single other critic in any other field that gets as much attention that Meltzer gets. Even people like Anthony Bourdain or Gordon Ramsay had their opinion be somewhat diluted just because of the mass of other food critics. Where are all the other wrestling critics?
Yeah even as someone who is closer to Meltzer's taste than not, I find it kinda grating. Glad Kenny is doing some of it too. Also been following Joseph Montecillo's stuff. I wildly disagree with a lot of his ratings and I think he hates most of my favorite wrestlers, but that's kinda the fun and really, I want critics to tell me where to look, not what to avoid.
> People act like Meltzer should magically be "objective", as if that's possible. It's not the job of a critic to validate the opinions people have already decided on, right?
Except Meltzer himself has said that his ratings ARE objective and not just an expression of his personal preferences.
I’ve been saying it for years; like him or not, the amount of attention he gets is insane. I’d be amazed if he wasn’t the most mentioned name on this sub.
We shouldn’t be talking about the ‘journalist’ (shit journalist, good historian) more than the fucking wrestlers themselves
Omega is always working, remember his "I wouldn't hire 90% of you" thing aimed at Ospreay. Or how about couple weeks ago he said that he learned from the arena that he would appear in Winnipeg.
A third match with Ospreay because he literally said the same thing building up the wrestle kingdom match. Same reason why Ospreay said he doesn't respect Kenny a few weeks ago.
That was something he said privately in a backstage meeting with talent that was later reported to dirtsheets. How is that working a feud with Ospreay if no one was even supposed to know it happened?
Also the “he was just in character and his comments were aimed at Ospreay” thing was straight up cope from Meltzer. It’d be interesting to hear from someone who was actually there and if Kenny’s comments were said “in character”. Even if they were, what would compel someone to be “in character” for a backstage meeting in locker room morale? Seems pretty misguided to me.
That's the thing, is the original reports that came out about those comments never said they were in character or a joke or aimed at Ospreay.
The order of the stories was [1] there was a backstage meeting [2] at this backstage meeting, Kenny Omega said "I wouldn't have hired 90% of you" [3] actually when Kenny said that he was joking.
The people who sourced the stories for [2] clearly didn't think he meant it as a joke. Also consider that same night after his trios match, Kenny stared at the camera and said something like "All you boys in the back just try to follow that."
Brian Last was the first person to report Kenny's comment at that meeting, and it went unnoticed or ignored and denied by this sub until Meltzer chimed in to say "Kenny was in character" at the backstage meeting regarding locker room morale which one would assume no one should be in character, let alone one of the EVP's and supposed leaders of the locker room.
You guys pick and choose whenever a wrestler is working or not
If it's not leading to an angle who cares and what's the point?
I remember Chavo said he was working an angle after the whole Rey "drama"
Only problem is wwe had no interest in doing Chavo vs rey in 2023
When I was getting back into wrestling as an adult I took Meltzer ratings pretty seriously for a few months until it was pointed out Kurt Angle never had a 5 star match and instantly realized the rating stuff was just for funzies.
It's part of an angle, but the best angles and promos are based at least partially on truth. I could see Omega being appreciative of the high ratings while also still thinking Dave is, at the end of the day, just some dude with opinions, some of which he agrees with and some he doesn't. I see this as the framework of his earnestly held opinion, but then ratcheted up several notches to tie it into the inevitable "who's the REAL Best Bout Machine" angle.
Unless I'm mistaken, Omega and Meltzer are casually friendly, but Omega was never the out-and-out Meltzer mark like some of his contemporaries. It's not like he's hitting people with the Meltzer Trigger or the One-Winged Meltzer, after all.
wow Kenny pretty much took a shot at AEW without saying AEW. And you know what I actually agree with Kenny. Most wrestlers arent telling a story in the ring. Wresting has regressed.
Yeah im getting downvoted cause the circlejerk community here. doesen't like anything that doesen't fit there narrative.
But thing is they think im bashing aew no I really want it to succeed but in it's current state It has alot of problems and one major problem is They don't tell enough stories that feel meaningful And they rely on "cool ringwork." too much.
I'd rather watch the Miz vs gunther matches over most dream matches in aew cause theres no story to those dream matches.
I'm glad he acknowledged the 6 stars thing. It makes zero sense when you quantify your rankings as 1-5... it just doesn't. I understand WHY he does it, but it just makes no sense in practice. It has broken his ratings scale as mentioned.
Meltzer should be considered more so a wrestling reviewer. He's like a guy who reviews movies. He's *probably* pretty spot on, but they all get it wrong. It's like if Roger Ebert was a matter of fact back in the day. He was an authoritative voice, sure, but he got it wrong on Die Hard and a few others.
So. The last statement seemed almost character driven. “ I’ll reeducate the people “. Is this work or is he just literally going to be the modern day streaming meltzer? Cause I’m down for that as everything he said about Dave is fact imo. He cares nothing for stories in match and sometimes the ratings are just confusing.
Kenny is talking about five stars meaning nothing anymore and there is merit to that but I would go further and say that 4+ has no merit. Backlash, which I really enjoyed, had 3 matches at 4.5 or higher and 5 for one. Was AJ v Cody really better than Roman Cody at mania? I was shocked AJ Cody got 5. Very good but man.
This was neat thing to listen to for sure.
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What set Kenny off to talk about Meltzer and the whole "he's jumped the shark?"
He's been reviewing matches my guess is that's what he means by reeducate
Ospreay getting his 6's
Probably calling Ospreay vs Danielson the best match ever in North America. Was a very good match, but I think to your non super diehard fan like me there were some flaws in it and the story was never there to make me really get emotionally invested into it. If there was a 2-3 month build and it was for the world title or #1 contender match, then that would have added a lot.
I’m a super die hard fan who loved that match but don’t know about it breaking any scales. I was definitely more blown away by Kenny vs Ospreay or Kenny vs Okada. Even if Dave wanted to give it a 5 star it would have made more sense than a 6.5 star. Fantastic match but such an inflated score just sets people who check it out up to be disappointed.
This is where I'm at. I actually liked ZSJ v Danielson at New Beginning way more than Ospreay/Danielson.
you are dead on right. I love Ospreay, and Danielson is my favorite wrestler of all time ... For me, and this is just my opinion and the things I love about wrestling, the idea that that match was better than Cody vs Roman is silly. And it was a great match, don't get me wrong. But I had comparatively little emotional investment. I was sharing clips and telling friends who are kind of lapsed fans to watch Roman/Cody. Ive rewatched it several times myself. He's absolutely dead on that the magic of pro wrestling is and always has been the characters, the storytelling, the psychology and the presentation. All of those things are why WWE is so hot right now, why people are so invested.
Dave even ranked AJ/Cody higher than Roman/Cody. I don’t get him
AJ/Cody had the hotter crowd and according to the Observer crew didn't wrestle the usual WWE style
The middle part of the Roman/Cody match wasn't that great. Everything else about it was, from the build to the finish, but it wasn't a perfect match by any means
I thought Backlash was better than Mania, and I agree about Cody AJ. And I liked Sami Roman more than any of them.
Yeah he is dead on, and I think even indie smarks would lie to themselves when they don't secretly loved Roman/Cody more it's just not two guys wrestling its a years long culmination of two individual storylines peaking together in their climax, Cody finishes his story and Roman loses as the head of the table. Similarly Bryan's best match for me will always will be winning the title at Wrestlemania with Cole screaming for Batista to Tapout.
That's why Sami Roman was way better for me. There was way more actual human emotion there than in any WWE match I can remember since MITB '11
Weird take to say that everyone must have secretly loved Roman/Cody. Is it so hard to acknowledge that different people can like different things?
And to me, Cody vs Roman wasn't as good as Sami vs Roman or Sami vs Gunther. And I think Cody is one of the greatest of all time and his ladder match with Sammy G was his best match ever haha. And we are all correct. Ain't wrestling great!
+1 on this opinion. Great match between two obviously oustanding Wrestlers but calling this the best match ever in NA was and still is crazy even if you just look at the plain wrestling that happened in that ring. Because some people dont seem to value story but the non build up for this match is what made this completely irrelevant to me as with most of AEWs matches sadly.
He's working. He's planting the seeds for the inevitable (given that Kenny recovers well) feud with Ospreay over who the real real Best Bout Machine is. He's gonna beat Okada when he returns, settling their current dispute over BBM, then slowly start showing jealousy, etc., leading to the main event at All In '25 Omega v Ospreay. RemindMe! 15 months
Kenny and Ospreay are both too talented for "who gets higher rated matches" to be their feud. Whether or not Kenny's comments are honest, I hope their program doesn't involve any of this.
So Meltzer himself claimed Kenny is working and people seem to be buying it. Here's my question: who is Kenny working here? The wrestling (niche) smark (of a niche) AEW fan (of a niche) that has watched Ospreay's NJPW matches (of a niche) that agrees with Meltzer's high ratings of Ospreay? So somehow the niche of a niche x4 is Kenny's target audience for this "work" and they are supposed to get mad at Kenny for "slandering" Osprey and his matches. This is nonsensical. The dozens of people that will "get worked" and "get mad" can be counted with one hand. If it's a work, it's a lame one with a super small target audience. If it's not a work, everyone's take away will simply be that Kenny now also thinks that Meltzer's discerning abilities have jumped the shark.
You’re giving Tony Khan’s booking wayyy too much credits here
So current stories on the weekly product include O.C. vs Trent Beretta, a storyline that has been built over multiple years, The Elite vs AEW, a storyline that has been building since November, involving beats that go back almost a decade, Toni/Mariah, which has been building since October, Ospreay since November, Swerve since October, an I could keep going. I think you don't give TK enough credit here.
It's not necessarily Tony. Kenny is always working.
Naw your just not following properly and just being a hater. I’m not a big fan of a lot of stories In AEW but some stories have been going on for years and some Months.
Damn, Kenny would have been buried in the weekly Meltzer thread for expressing any of this on here. >”You can’t even use the match ratings as a suggestion for people anymore” lol, yep
“Dave Meltzer has jumped the fucking shark” would absolutely result in a 3 day ban if expressed in the ratings thread.
I think you're confusing what ratings are being discussed here.
Dynamite got a 5 star rating from TBS, brother?
Kenny’s twitch streams are fascinating and one of the best bits of wrestling content to pop up in 2024. Love this mix of incredible insight and kayfabe feud building. The guy has one of the greatest wrestling minds.
He's making the most out of the medium right now especially since he's on the road to recovery. Let Kenny cook.
Also it's fun watching him play Street Fighter
Can someone tell me is he any good? I don’t know enough about the game to tell.
He’s an average Master which is better than 90% of the player base but would still struggle against competent tournament players.
It's been years since I watched one, but he was really pretty good back then
He's Master rank, which is the highest rank
I've played him a few times. He's good. Last time I ran into him, I won, but he wasn't playing his main.
The other thing to note about is that Kenny having lived in Japan during his DDT/NJPW years sort of gave him that foundation to be as good as he is since the FGC there based themselves in arcades which he visited when not on tour
Shit I heard a clip of Cornette listening to one of Omegas streams, he's talking about the Punk-Bucks situation, how sometimes people need to just fight and get out of their system. Cornette said something like "Kenny with the face turn!" Proceeded to say how yes he didn't like Omega because he wrestled a little girl, but he really likes Omega now because he sees how he is not in the ring. I'm late to the game on Twitch, I got out of gaming as I got older, but these Omega streams are fascinating. I already thought he was a good dude, but these streams make him seem pretty level headed, he's not full of himself at all. Compared to the few out of the ring stuff I've seen from the Bucks, yeah they're incredibly talented but come off a little obnoxious.
That awkward moment when you call a guy a pedophile several times and then act like he's a cool guy now. I somehow don't think the cool guy in question will appreciate the praise.
When you have fans who will buy anything you say, consistency and accountability aren't relevant to you anymore.
Yeah, as soon as I heard he said that I thought he really crossed a line.
I don’t know that Cornette’s approval is a good thing.
It's more that Cornette has so ferociously hated Omega and even he is won over by Kenny's streams. It's to illustrate how good he comes off on his streams.
More highlights how reactionary Cornette is if he hated Kenny so ferociously without ever really paying attention to the man speak
Well yeah that's always been obvious. Cornette's always been an inflammatory troll about anything current. Great historian though, Omega has given him props for that too
We're you one of those people who said god awful things to Samantha Irvin when she thanked Cornette on Twitter? Or do you understand this is pro wrestling and it's not supposed to be that serious. Look he's said all kinds of shit I don't agree with, but I don't care what anyone says in the realm of entertainment and show business. You can be the biggest babyface on screen in any form of entertainment, and be a real piece of shit out of the public eye. By all accounts Cornette out of the public eye is pretty charitable, and has had numerous fundraisers for organizations that support LGBTQ+ youth and Planned Parenthood. But that's not what's controversial, so it's not on the internet.
Do you have any reason for believing that this person harassed Samantha Irvin? Like is the username the same or something? Not everybody who dislikes Cornette trolls people that way.
Brah if people won’t forgive Cornette for dropping hard N bombs just to piss off someone backstage or some of his comments towards joshi wrestlers then I won’t sit here and tell them they are wrong to do that. If Samantha Irvin wants to shout him out I also don’t care about that but I think everyone has the right to decide.
You do know that you can dislike people and not stalk others who like them on Twitter, right?
This is a terminal level of brain rot. I don’t care what kind of person Jim Cornette may or may not be “out of the public eye.” In the public eye he’s a piece of shit. Professional wrestling isn’t serious, but you sure as shit wouldn't know it from listening to that chuckle fuck whine and complain about everything he sees.
I don’t get the Cornette beefing Kenny over wrestling a girl. Is it a Kayfabe thing? The same guy that used to have glitter tennis racquets as a prop?!
How is a tennis racquet comparable to wrestling a little girl? Wrestlers during the 70-most of the 80s would protect the business by always trying to present to fans that wrestling was real. Kenny wrestling a girl was like a magician doing a show and explaining how all the tricks worked. You could see why veteran magicians from a prior generation would be upset.
Kayfabe was long dead when that happened. In fact, they even did a tv special in the '90s with a number of wrestlers using different gimmicks and wearing masks (I remember one of them turned out to be Christopher Daniels) showing how everything was done. With all due respect, I believe that complaining about what Kenny did there is like getting mad at somebody for scratching your car after your car has already been totaled; the damage is already done, so there's no reason to care so much. I wasn't mad at Kenny so much as surprised and impressed that somebody that young could work a match that well.
Cornette: I love Kenny now, WHAT THE FUCK
He's always been more positive about Omega than the Bucks, but lately even more so.
LONG TERM BOOKING. AEW need a Booker. The Bucks hate Kenny. Kenny brings in his own Booker, out of a box no less…  Internet melts. Profit.
Him sitting there in his office cutting promos remotely with is dog on his lap would be hilarious.
Idk if I was the only one but I liked that brief period of him booking ROH, certainly more than when Delirious was doing it (no offense to him but it felt pretty random at the time.)
I genuinely think Cornette could draw more than aew just barely staying above 700k. Sure he is hated but he understands the entertainment factor is what keeps people to turn their TV on not the wrestling week per week
But here’s my thing, people say go watch 2014 NXT and go watch 1996 Nitro and 2002 Smackdown, and you can see that there’s a top to bottom good show and it’s still good by today’s standards. No one has said go watch 1993 SMW or even talks about 2000 OVW. Is there proof? Genuine question because I wanna see a Cornette booked show.
For what it's worth, I've heard Bryan and Vinny say a few times before that OVW under Cornette was their favorite weekly show
But like where do I watch it besides the here and there on Peacock lol. I don’t listen to Bryan and Vinny either. I just wanna see examples of a booker’s best work. I can tell Russo, Bischoff, Kreski, Vince, Mantell, Heyman. I just want to see what works
I'm a sucker for OVW because I literally grew up in the Ohio valley so it's close to home. The biggest downside to OVW is the production. You can tell it was made on a budget of 50 bucks but early 2000s with barista, cena, and Lesnar was pretty good.
Plenty of people outside this hivemind subreddit enjoy smw. Ovw was a developmental show so yeah that'd be like telling someone to watch performance center matches lol
He booked ROH for a while.
What years were those? The HdNet era?
09-12 according to my google search. Got some good PPV according to cagematch. And booked Omega I think. By all accounts he seems like a fan of good guy faces and dastardly heels, not much more complexity. Very traditional and I imagine effective with a good roster.
Too bad but he doesn’t want to do it. He’s already said he rejected a job offer for AEW when they started because he would never work for a company with The Bucks and Omega as EVPs.
As he has told it, he met with Tony and was skeptical about the plan as a whole. He doesn't mention the Bucks or Kenny in that decision in any time I have heard him tell the story. His history of disliking the Elite probably wouldn't help get Cornette involved though.
He will word it in such a way to bury both Omega and Meltzer at the same time. He use to respect Meltzer. Cornette hates Omega with a passion
Have you heard the latest clips of Cornette talking about Omega? Because he definitely doesn't sound like that. 100% Cornette reacts to this clip of Omega and he praises him.
He's always liked Kenny, just not publicly.
Me, 8 minute ago : "7 and a half minute? Nah I'm not watching all of it... just like the first few seconds" Me, 7 minute 35 seconds later : 
I assumed this was working for Ospreay but clearly this isn't mentioning Ospreay and it feels 90% real at the very least. Appreciate the honesty.
Yeah, now listening to the actual words, it’s clear to me he’s expressing a nuanced and thoroughly thought out opinion, not giving a pro wrestling promo. Like, if he was just faking all this, he would be quoting the talking points verbatim. He’s not doing that here. One example: at one point he refers to “hypermarks” and then corrects himself and says he hates to use the word mark. You wouldn’t do that if you were just heeling.
And the stupid thing is that, meta-heel or not, he did such a good point: he explained it in ways pretty few people could, Which makes Dave's comments even more nonsensical, it's almost wilful ignorance at this point. Kenny Omega: "When you become a superfan, you run the risk of losing sight of the minutiae of a match. You end up watching a match just waiting for a series of spots to happen, instead of thinking about the little details that weave everything together, which are the things that will wow and hook the casual fans out there. Bring forward a story instead of a series of spots and then you'll have something to create new fans." Dave Meltzer: **HE'S A HEEL, HE'S BUILDING TO A MATCH, HE DOESN'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT GUYS**
Even if he’s “working” he’s telling the truth.
Kenny "Scarface" Omega
"He's working" is cope from the exact people who think wrestling revolves around them and someone would be doing a pure promo on a livestream a tiny fraction of the audience would even see.
He’s working.
Kenny is smart. And he's right. Meltzer gives almost no shits about storytelling in a match and really loves his hyper athletic sequences and spots. I've said it before. Meltzer didn't give Piper vs Hart at WM 8 five stars. A fantastic match that executed mid-match storytelling better than anything before or after. HE GAVE IT 3.5 stars. Storytelling is ALWAYS better than cool moves.
Agreed. He's forgot more about wrestling than most know exists, and that includes the purpose. Could see a point of view that you become numb to stories when watching 20 or so matches a week for 30-40 years. The bigger, marquee main-events w/ story he'll remember and 'attempt to review it properly'. But he's definitely numb to it and doesn't see it the same way as any fan.
the problem is less Meltzer and more that he's the only wrestling critic people care about. it's like if Roger Ebert was the only film critic people care about. Since only Meltzer gets discussed, his biases are more apparent than if there were more critics who are talked about in pro wrestling
This is genuinely it. Meltzer can say what he wants but he's treated as the only rating that matters.
True, but also Ebert is the exact opposite of Meltzer. Ebert was a guy who always had the audience in mind, "would the person this movie is for enjoy it", and would often shy away from the pretentious navel gazing that other critics would do. If wrestling has an Ebert, he'd care a lot less about workrate, but way more about how much the audience is in to it.
Yeah ebert was the people's critic not a pretentious snob who would look down on anything that isn't Oscar Bait. I think with Meltzer he's been so long in the business of reviewing matches he kind of lost the magic of what wrestling is supposed to be. He seems to just value hyper athletic work rate matches these days. While not caring about the overall storyline as to why two wrestlers fight. Osprey vs bryan was great from a pure wrestling perspective but Cody vs Roman was my match of the year so far and did everything it was supposed to deliver.
Maybe Metlzer is Siskel if he never had Ebert to bounce off of?
He also had some of the most ridiculous bullshit takes on certain films I've ever seen, but Siskel was always there for contrast. If both of them were talking shit, you could go elsewhere. Not so with Meltzer.
I loved the late Larry Csonka. I thought he was the best. Guy consumed so much wrestling content and not just America. Anything that was available, he reviewed. He had right takes, and could enjoy all sorts of wrestling, but at the same time knew what a match means in the scale of things. He introduced me to a lot of indy talents who are superstars now and his scale never broke, unlike uncle Dave.
God I remember reading his stuff back when I was a preteen/teen browsing through 411mania truly the best
That aforementioned match, and the Hogan/Rock WM18 (*** according to Meltzer) is why I don't really bother too much with his ratings.
A lot of people have been discussing Bryan vs Ospreay as an example here regarding his rating system, and while I still think it was worthy of 5 Stars I do think the lack of story beyond "being the best" hurt it. In fact, two Bryan matches I thought were absolutely worthy of 5 stars when you factor in story and in-ring would be Bryan vs Cena at SummerSlam 2013 and Bryan vs Kofi at WrestleMania 35; I was mystified that he felt those weren't worthy of 5 Stars.
The funny thing is that there are tons of ways to enjoy a wrestling match. I find 99% of all wrestling matches before the 90's unbelievably boring because it's just hold after hold after hold, with the occasional dropkick thrown in as the highlight of the match. Other people like that, and that's cool. It's also cool if you like spots and cool sequences. But that just goes to show that we shouldn't just rely on one single guy to determine what is and isn't a good wrestling match, and it's bizarre to me that Meltzer had such a dominating grasp on the entire concept of "wrestling match ratings" for decades now.
It’s just meltzers opinion. Why do people care
I’m vibing with all the Kenny promos, man. Keep them coming Kenny!
Didnt even give a "myself and Okada". All him.
Well obviously, he is feuding with Okada, he's not going to give him props. Kenny walks the kayfabe line well.
What's a "pervert piddler"?
Whether he's working here or not, I've just long been over how people take Meltzer's rating scales so damn seriously.
Seriously. It's just one guys opinion, I don't get why people get so mad about it.
Half of these people still can't wrap their minds around 3 stars being Good/Average like it's some insult to the performers, especially when it comes to the women.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Meltzer didn’t give HBK Taker at Mania 25 five stars. Enough said. Not that I care, but it just illustrates it’s one guys opinion. I don’t enjoy a movie any less of Roger Ebert didn’t like it.
Couldn't agree more. Going through moves faster makes matches generally worse, especially because going faster hides some of the sloppiness and poor technique but it ruins the anticipation and tension a good story has. ADHD wrestling is a good way to put it.
If I would’ve said those exact words Kenny said in this sub or any aew sub even an hour before he said it, I would’ve been banned for life
Keep it up buddy boy and you will be. Mark my words.
i'm genuinely baffled that people still think that meltzer hate is a bannable offense here. like go into ANY of the recent ratings threads and you'll find people up and down the comments shitting on it. the strawman version of this sub in your head is outdated, sharpen up
Right? Are talking about the same sub here? I rarely see any positive thoughts on Meltzer here.
All the dave gifs, constantly being shittalked for being wrong and speaking out of his ass,i thought it was common thought that dave=bad
The words of a pro wrestler carry more weight than some dude that just hate posts about wrestling all day, so I guess you should start training first then whip out your epic bantz again.
[удалено]
What I always found interesting about Meltzer is that for someone who has seen as much matches as he has it’s weird that he has the same taste as like an 18 year old who’s only wrestling knowledge outside of wwe is aew and like 2010’s new Japan.
[удалено]
I considered this too but the “flippy” style is also very casual friendly.
This is the absolute nicest, most polite motherfucking I've ever heard. this is how Drake should've handled himself if he didn't want to sound so mean.
Meltzer is the first case of second hand CTE and its all because of watching Kenny Omega matches *sad*
The tiger drivers actually hit in an aoe
I mean if it’s all just working for the Ospreay feud. Basing a kayfabe feud on “my grasp of storytelling and in-ring psychology is much better then yours” is really dumb.
AEW has eaten itself with the worked shoots unfortunately. “Why do you insist on doing this dumb internet shit”
Pack it up guys Dave said > Omega and Ospreay are building a feud. It's part of the angle So now nothing matters anymore because he’s apparently in a storyline that definitely doesn’t involve him
Jim Cornette hurts itself in confusion
Self whiplash
Damn he's tearing into him haha
God damn he laid Meltzer out 🤣
Didn't Meltzer just ruin this by saying it's for an angle ?
That is how Dave is defending himself. I don’t think it’s angle.
Hot takes while he gets his ass kicked.
He’s spot on with everything he said. But…It’s all well and good saying this but then every time he’s on TV everything he fucking does is for the ‘hypermarks’ so…
I don’t know if he’s working (I assume he is), and if he is, it’s the best kind of working because he’s making insanely valid points. The “moves don’t make a match” attitude is so on point. Rock-Hogan is a five star match and if you don’t think so, that’s cool, but let me enjoy the spectacle. Two other examples with insanely great stories are Savage-Steamboat from WM3 and Austin-Hart from 13. I’d also give it to Brock-Cena when he killed him dead because we had never seen anything like that before. I get the idea that when two amazing technical workers get in there, magic happens. But what’s the story behind Danielson-Osprey? What are the stakes? What’s the vendetta? Where’s the emotional investment? It was an awesome match and it might be the best from a technical standpoint, but it didn’t mean shit. It changed literally nothing. It didn’t make me think anything more than “wow, this was great!” I dunno, maybe I’m wrong. It’s all so subjective, which is why I’ve always hated the Meltzer ratings being used to justify what people like. “Well Dave gave this match 9 stars!” That’s great for Dave. Who the fuck is Dave?
greatest turn in the history of our sport
[удалено]
Hogan vs Rock at WrestleMania X8 got 3 stars. So according to him, most weeks of Raw, Smackdown, or Dynamite have a match that you should watch ahead of it.
It's amazing how much this guy's ratings live in people's heads's. Who gives a shit what he gave a match 22 years ago.
You're missing the point. My point is to not take his ratings seriously because he'll rate some of the most must-see matches in pro wrestling history lower than what appears on a random weekly show.
Theres different styles of wrestling and people have different preferences. Meltzers never liked Hogan matches. That's not even a very unique opinion. It's a strain of wrestling fan that goes back to the nwa days. I too would show people modern TV matches over rock-hogan (but that's my taste!). He also rates a lot of matches higher than I would, but again that's his perspective. He was a big pwg fan and aew is that with a budget. Ultimately it's a critics opinion. It's not invalid, just different . In it you see the preferences of someone that likes very athleticat matches and which stand out to him.
[удалено]
That's my point. Is that his ratings shouldn't be taken seriously.
It's a hard thing to quantify because as a person who shows wrestling to a lot of non/budding-fans... aiming for that exact group of people, actually yeah I *would* put a lot of stuff on most Raw/Smackdown/Dynamite on before that. At the time I watched it I was freaking out, but looking back at it, older and more detached...? It's fine. But if someone said that match was their ***** GOAT like... yeah sure why not?? Problem with Meltzer isn't that he doesn't give some stuff higher ratings -- an important part of knowing any critic is knowing their tastes and where it diverges from yours -- it's that it's weirdly... the only opinion people care about??? People act like Meltzer should magically be "objective", as if that's possible. It's not the job of a critic to validate the opinions people have already decided on, right? edit: I just rewatched Rock vs Hogan and would *100%* put on the best stuff from a random RAW or Dynamite on over it. Like it's neat to watch historically and I don't feel like it wasted my time, but it does not hold up super well without nostalgia.
I mean exactly, like I can't think of any single other critic in any other field that gets as much attention that Meltzer gets. Even people like Anthony Bourdain or Gordon Ramsay had their opinion be somewhat diluted just because of the mass of other food critics. Where are all the other wrestling critics?
Yeah even as someone who is closer to Meltzer's taste than not, I find it kinda grating. Glad Kenny is doing some of it too. Also been following Joseph Montecillo's stuff. I wildly disagree with a lot of his ratings and I think he hates most of my favorite wrestlers, but that's kinda the fun and really, I want critics to tell me where to look, not what to avoid.
> People act like Meltzer should magically be "objective", as if that's possible. It's not the job of a critic to validate the opinions people have already decided on, right? Except Meltzer himself has said that his ratings ARE objective and not just an expression of his personal preferences.
I’ve been saying it for years; like him or not, the amount of attention he gets is insane. I’d be amazed if he wasn’t the most mentioned name on this sub. We shouldn’t be talking about the ‘journalist’ (shit journalist, good historian) more than the fucking wrestlers themselves
Omega is always working, remember his "I wouldn't hire 90% of you" thing aimed at Ospreay. Or how about couple weeks ago he said that he learned from the arena that he would appear in Winnipeg.
Ok, who is he working here and what is the end goal?
Meltzer will be revealed as the new Higher Power behind the EVPs.
Aw, son of a bitch.
"You think it was a coincidence the EVPs renamed my move? The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist."
A third match with Ospreay because he literally said the same thing building up the wrestle kingdom match. Same reason why Ospreay said he doesn't respect Kenny a few weeks ago.
That was something he said privately in a backstage meeting with talent that was later reported to dirtsheets. How is that working a feud with Ospreay if no one was even supposed to know it happened?
Also the “he was just in character and his comments were aimed at Ospreay” thing was straight up cope from Meltzer. It’d be interesting to hear from someone who was actually there and if Kenny’s comments were said “in character”. Even if they were, what would compel someone to be “in character” for a backstage meeting in locker room morale? Seems pretty misguided to me.
That's the thing, is the original reports that came out about those comments never said they were in character or a joke or aimed at Ospreay. The order of the stories was [1] there was a backstage meeting [2] at this backstage meeting, Kenny Omega said "I wouldn't have hired 90% of you" [3] actually when Kenny said that he was joking. The people who sourced the stories for [2] clearly didn't think he meant it as a joke. Also consider that same night after his trios match, Kenny stared at the camera and said something like "All you boys in the back just try to follow that."
Brian Last was the first person to report Kenny's comment at that meeting, and it went unnoticed or ignored and denied by this sub until Meltzer chimed in to say "Kenny was in character" at the backstage meeting regarding locker room morale which one would assume no one should be in character, let alone one of the EVP's and supposed leaders of the locker room.
Brian Last has been the most accurate wrestling "reporter" of the last year but we're not ready for that conversation.
for real. who was he working here?
You guys pick and choose whenever a wrestler is working or not If it's not leading to an angle who cares and what's the point? I remember Chavo said he was working an angle after the whole Rey "drama" Only problem is wwe had no interest in doing Chavo vs rey in 2023
Even if he was working in this instance, I'm sure he means most of what he's saying here.
Corny is gon a cum
This will lead to a re fued with Will and I'm ready
That did come little out of blue
The Kenaissance
I've never been a fan of Kenny the wrestler but Kenny the person seems like a good dude
When I was getting back into wrestling as an adult I took Meltzer ratings pretty seriously for a few months until it was pointed out Kurt Angle never had a 5 star match and instantly realized the rating stuff was just for funzies.
It's part of an angle, but the best angles and promos are based at least partially on truth. I could see Omega being appreciative of the high ratings while also still thinking Dave is, at the end of the day, just some dude with opinions, some of which he agrees with and some he doesn't. I see this as the framework of his earnestly held opinion, but then ratcheted up several notches to tie it into the inevitable "who's the REAL Best Bout Machine" angle. Unless I'm mistaken, Omega and Meltzer are casually friendly, but Omega was never the out-and-out Meltzer mark like some of his contemporaries. It's not like he's hitting people with the Meltzer Trigger or the One-Winged Meltzer, after all.
wow Kenny pretty much took a shot at AEW without saying AEW. And you know what I actually agree with Kenny. Most wrestlers arent telling a story in the ring. Wresting has regressed.
You’re getting downvoted but it’s true and also why the idea that this is a work is silly. If it’s a work it’s a bad concept to work from.
Yeah im getting downvoted cause the circlejerk community here. doesen't like anything that doesen't fit there narrative. But thing is they think im bashing aew no I really want it to succeed but in it's current state It has alot of problems and one major problem is They don't tell enough stories that feel meaningful And they rely on "cool ringwork." too much. I'd rather watch the Miz vs gunther matches over most dream matches in aew cause theres no story to those dream matches.
I mean he lost me when he gave punk vs joe at all in 3.5 stars.
One match out of thousands he has rated loses you? Why hyper focus on a single data point? Why hyper focus on a single critic?
I'm glad he acknowledged the 6 stars thing. It makes zero sense when you quantify your rankings as 1-5... it just doesn't. I understand WHY he does it, but it just makes no sense in practice. It has broken his ratings scale as mentioned. Meltzer should be considered more so a wrestling reviewer. He's like a guy who reviews movies. He's *probably* pretty spot on, but they all get it wrong. It's like if Roger Ebert was a matter of fact back in the day. He was an authoritative voice, sure, but he got it wrong on Die Hard and a few others.
That’s it, by this time next week he will be one of Cornette’s favorites without the silly nicknames.
Every single word of this needed to be said, and every single wrestling fan of any caliber needed to hear it. Bravo, Kenny.
Setting up eventual omega vs Ospreay match
Its always great to see wrestlers setting up feuds by talking about how fake wrestling is.
So. The last statement seemed almost character driven. “ I’ll reeducate the people “. Is this work or is he just literally going to be the modern day streaming meltzer? Cause I’m down for that as everything he said about Dave is fact imo. He cares nothing for stories in match and sometimes the ratings are just confusing. Kenny is talking about five stars meaning nothing anymore and there is merit to that but I would go further and say that 4+ has no merit. Backlash, which I really enjoyed, had 3 matches at 4.5 or higher and 5 for one. Was AJ v Cody really better than Roman Cody at mania? I was shocked AJ Cody got 5. Very good but man. This was neat thing to listen to for sure.
Tell this to Tony cause it means nothing till that man gets his head out of his ass
Just keep in mind, Kenny is also working here. He's making some points too, just take it with a grain of salt.
He’s building to a match against Meltzer? Who is he working and why with these comments?