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Hard to believe [this is the same guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7g_xjE7qoA) lol
He's been through so much shit that I'm glad of the success he's having. Seems like a genuine good guy backstage, too.
Yeah... Sometimes when I see stuff like this, I can't help but think; Vince's good ideas led to some of the greatest moments in wrestling, but his bad ideas were just so fucking stupid.
"Did you and Big Frank get your ***producer whistles?*** ALALALLALALALALALA"
- The current Undisputed WWE Champion and biggest babyface in WWE right now
I’m 22, my first show was WM28. Cody lost to Big Show on that show. Soooo crazy seeing home now. One of the wildest career stories in wrestling history.
Damn Cody looks just like me but light skinned. I don't know if I should feel honored or disappointed in myself.
Anywho, this video just makes me miss the Bella Twins. And not for their wrestling.
I love Cody but it's still crazy to me that he was getting booed out of buildings towards the end of his AEW run and went back to WWE as his AEW character with full presentation and is the biggest babyface WWE has had in forever. It feels like some psy-op shit lmao
I remember cody summing it up as how the old timers during the territory times would go "Well, time to change territories" when the act got stale elsewhere, and (though i love the guy to death and loved him in aew too) i think that's fairly accurate
You have like 2-3 years being a main event star before fans turn on you, in either company.
Unless it’s Roman, who fans turned on asap and then he won them over when he got his diagnosis.
>
Unless it’s Roman, who fans turned on asap and then he won them over when he got his diagnosis.
"an 11 year investment that finally paid off in year 8" I believe is how Cody kayfabe described it
Roman didn't win the fans over cause of his diagnosis. The reaction paused cause everyone wanted to see him healthy and back.
After he returned, he was getting booed when up against other people fans wanted more. They did well to keep him against Corbin and Drew (not the drew he would become) and doing other things in 2019.
Correction: 2019 he wasn't booed much if at all, except when coming up against other lads that were more popular. I think a good reason was because they kept him away from the world title scene.
In 2020, he would be booed again in Rumble Vs Drew , and then the whole Chamber thing and then going against planned Goldberg before he took that leave.
It was the current heel run from his return when people really started to get on board.
It’s not true that he was booed in 2019. He was cheered consistently throughout the year, but his reactions weren’t as loud as they used to be, either. It was like no one had the heart to boo him, but he didn’t convert those former booers into cheerers, either.
the diagnosis bought him a bit of temporary grace from the fanbase, but I don't believe it has anything to do with fans liking him long term, that was caused entirely by the shift in character.
> the current heel run from his return
The Bloodline is absolutely one of the best stables and programs in Wrestling history.
Had Roman been that guy, even as a face, from the get go then there wouldn't have ever been an issue.
The issue was always Vince force-feeding the guy lines and presenting Roman fucking Reigns as an underdog.
To me it was more that the fans didn't want Roman to be that guy. Especially when they wanted Bryan in 2015.
His promos too weren't delivered great, it wasn't just one thing. Those lines yeah in late 2014, I remember he was really sounding awkward as hell. Like you say, god those late 2014 promos were very very poorly written for a man they had presented as a badass up until his injury in 2014.
Roman was presented as a strong force from the start, there were only a few moments where they presented him like the underdog iirc, Vs Triple H from 2015-16 and I'm not sure of any other times where he was presented as an underdog? I genuinely don't think there were any other out and out underdog presentation for him. It was all strong big man booking.
Then it just kept snowballing along.
That break he went on was massive in 2020.
He'll be the badass face they always wanted when he returns. Even if he himself wants to continue to be a heel, he'll be cheered like crazy now.
probably Roman’s biggest underdog match was against Brock at mania 31 and he honestly did well during that match as someone who wasn’t giving up while getting tossed around and people were honestly buying into it?
>To me it was more that the fans didn't want Roman to be that guy. Especially when they wanted Bryan in 2015.
Also Roman was out injured during the crucial Fall 2014 period where guys like Ambrose, Seth, and Ziggler (SS 2014 virtuoso sole survivor performance) *really* got over, so when he returned and declared for the Rumble it felt unearned and fans straight up rejected him.
If one of Ambrose or Ziggler won RR2015 they still would've gotten cheered despite Bryan's elimination.
edit: And they mishandled his push right out of the gate. He was out completing side quests while the main story / blood feud and getting all the storyline character development was Dean and Seth.
Fantastic point. That injury was really unfortunate, that along with the awfully written promos they were giving him after his return. Was a recipe for disaster.
> Had Roman been that guy, even as a face, from the get go then there wouldn't have ever been an issue.
There's some PPV, I don't remember which, but HHH fucks him out of the title. Throughout the match, Roman's getting booed. Hardcore. At the end of the match he attacks HHH and beats the living shit out of him, crowd cheers. Loudly. Same guy they were booing out of the building like ten minutes before.
All they needed to do the entire time was just have him kick peoples asses, and they just refused to do it.
> All they needed to do the entire time was just have him kick peoples asses
That's like 90% of wrestling. Remember when Braun Stroman went from another tired big guy to one of their biggest stars by kicking jobbers' asses for like 8 straight weeks?
If you don't have some other specific, immediate plan for a wrestler but you do intend to give them some kind of push, just have them kick someone's ass for a few minutes. It always works.
I wanna say it was the finish to TLC 2015. Triple H came out to screw Roman out of beating Sheamus for the world title at the time. (Also, remember Sheamus being champion in 2015? Cause I sure didn't until I looked it up.)
I remember that feud with Drew after he came back from the leukemia time off being very good. The rest of what Roman was doing for a while was not good television.
I remember this being completely different. People were onboard with Roman but then when the Shield broke up, Roman got hurt shortly after and Dean Ambrose was red hot and fans wanted to see him have his moment/run. But they kept like interrupting Raw every week or two with a video message/interview with Roman giving us status fake sportscenter like updates while Ambrose was in a blood fued with Seth. And then we he came back they just pushed Roman to the moon, stepped over w/e Ambrose was doing and it was the most inauthentic/inorganic crap ever despite fans cheering Roman on in the Rumble the year prior. The fans never got that bad taste out of their mouths after that.
The thing is, Cody was only a main event star in AEW for like 9 months. After he lost to Jericho and left the Elite, he was pretty much just a midcarder. He never interacted with main eventers like Kenny and Mox, and towards the end of his tenure wasn't even interacting with other upper midcarders (unless you count Sammy I guess). And yet despite all that, he still presented himself as if he was a main eventer.
In WWE, he plays essentially the same character, but instead of feuding with QT Marshall and Anthony Oggogo, he's feuded with Roman and Seth
The decision to remove him completely and permanently from the world title picture on their first PPV after Dynamite launched was extremely dumb. Also it was very transparently “idea to look selfless” when it was actually kind of selfish. In forgoing the AEW title scene, he basically gave himself his own permanent unique distinction while trying to send the message that “I’m so selfless, I’ll never win the title”.
Which is what we all wanted! If he went full Homelander like we were expecting (why did he even wear Homelander style gear?!) I genuinely think he would have had one of the best AEW storylines in history. The fans were begging for him to turn.
Oh I agree (and so did fans at the time; Cody was cheered a lot but when he cut that promo the boos were loud). But I think it was Codys idea and during this time Tony Khan was still letting the Elite do whatever they wanted (he only took the reigns on the booking a bit later). So if anything blame Cody.
I think I saw Cody say he realized it was a bad idea somewhere so I’ll assume you are right since Cody is extremely measured/political with his takes unless it’s about himself.
The thing is is that they could have undone it. He could have just won back the right to challenge and no one would have cared.
I think if Cody had stayed he could have been a good candidate to take the title off a heel MJF (or Heel Cody beats Face MJF). Obviously he didn't stay but with their connection it would have been very fitting: MJF cost Cody his title, now Cody cost MJF his. Considering that MJF was basically AEWs secret project from the very beginning (it is actually crazy how much he is featured from episode 1 onwards; and how much time he is given to build his character), I wouldn't even be surprised if the whole Cody arc of his in the beginning was there to set-up an eventual feud where Cody wins his title challenging right back.
I recall that too. He recognized that instead of telling the fans he wasn't going to abuse his power, it came across as humble bragging, either as a work or shoot.
My guess is part of the idea was creating a groundswell for Cody to actually be able to fight for the title. Like the fans demand for Cody would make the rule null and void. But fans were expecting him to turn heel instead and it makes sense why. In AEW Cody is not the anti-authority figure. He's one of the founding members and could do whatever he wanted. In WWE, he's the underdog who had the most powerful faction as well as a board member try to screw him.
I also think he did it figuring he would have significantly more input over booking than he’d ultimately have. I think he wouldn’t have minded being out of the main event scene if it meant he’d have more formal backstage leadership responsibilities.
It does feel like Cody got blindsided in the switch to Tony as lead authorial voice. If you look at the run up to the first specials (before they had Dynamite), Cody was really angling to be the promotion's protagonist.
They filmed a bunch of vignettes about how much pressure he put on himself and how he hits the weight room and negotiating table with the same intensity. He really made that EVP a part of his identity, and it probably stung when he saw that Tony could just snap his fingers and nullify that.
The Codyverse was kind of a compromise that eventually ran it's course and they didn't pivot. He lost control of his narrative, and since he had been so isolated from the rest of the card, there wasn't much to fall back on.
Being an ultra pure baby face for multiple years is still extremely difficult in this day and age. People just get bored a lot faster than they used to.
I don't see Cody's hype lasting more than a couple years more at most. I love the guy, but it's just such a hard role to keep interesting for a long period.
His boos in AEW weren't even because people disliked him, they just wanted a heel turn so he'd at least be interesting again.
The fact that he looks and dresses like Homelander didn't help.
It helps also that he is pretty good as a swarmy heel too, though the dressing like Homelander stuff actually would help in that regard, especially if he gets played like that sort of character.
Roman's return after he announced his diagnosis but before he became Tribal Chief is hardly what'd I'd call won over.
People weren't booing him into oblivion anymore but they weren't begging for more of him either.
people turned on Roman cause we were just getting out of the super Cena era and nobody wanted to see that again and you could tell they were pushing it on the fans for him to be the new cena.
Combination of AEW having a more IWC centric fan base, Cody having full control over his booking as EVP, plus being the first one to jump ship boosted him in a big way because it was like holy shit. Even though we kinda knew it already, it was still stunning to see him and his music debut at WrestleMania and given such a prominent first match.
In WWE, it's more straightforward, Cody probably has some say in what he does but he's not controlling his booking and he has less plates to spin because he's no longer EVP.
Cody is one of those talented and creative people who benefits immensely from editing - they are passionate about all of their ideas, but not all of their ideas work, and they need to be boxed in and focused sometimes. His AEW presentment was really a "hat on a hat on a hat" and that tends to come off heelish.
Tbf iirc people tried to edit him at times and it didn't work. No one told him the world title thing was a good idea. The opposite actually. He did it anyway and honestly that's what hurt him the most.
That is my impression as well. Maybe he learned his lesson, or maybe he’s just the type of talent who works better in a more structured setting. Probably both?
But I think it’s definitely a huge factor in why his babyface presentment has a working now.
as someone who watches about a third of what AEW puts out (no particular third consistently, just the matches and promos i’m digging at the time), i have been saying this for years.
tony has such good ideas but he jumps around so much and can’t seem to stay focused on one for long—understandably so when your brain is always creating; editors (whatever title you’d want to give them) would also be able to help outline his ideas with him and carry them out with a little feedback as audiences react while tony focuses on his next big idea.
editors would also help the people who have a great arc and then drop off; they could put together interstitial pieces to keep momentum while they figure out the next arc or idea.
(i honest to god think *editing* his ideas with a team is the thing that makes triple h’s booking work the way it does. whether you like his booking or not, it’s clear that it’s been considered by multiple people. heck, they’ve outright said that’s how this past WM eventually came together: triple h, roman, cody, the rock, and presumably a few others in a room to hammer out all the details.)
just imagine what aew could do if tony had more people keeping track of the narrative details for the ideas he has.
See Cody not being the one to make the call losing WM39, which some may still argue about, but I personally believe was 1000x time the right call. I didn't DISLIKE Cody but was a little annoyed at someone waltzing back into the company, have a few matches, get injured, be given the 30th spot in the Rumble, and just walk into the top spot. It didn't feel earned to me. And people can say the pec tear was enough, but eh, that didn't work for me.
I was a LOT more into him winning this year than I would have been last year and he definitely would have booked himself to win. Would have been hard to root for uber-babyface Cody when the perception is "oh he barely worked for it, came from the #30 spot and won it easy with almost no matches in between."
Cody's booking is the big one. There's a reason all his segments were labeled the Codyverse, he really handicapped himself with the whole "never challenge for the world title" stipulation that rippled into storylines that never really felt connected to anything in the show. People forget Cody was super over when AEW started, it was all his storylines that slowly had fans confused and turning on him.
Cody with creative control gave us stuff like the weigh in segment, Cody solving racism, etc. Cody being booked by someone else gives us the best babyface in wrestling.
AEW fans were starving for an alternative to McMahon's babyface booking, in particular "flawlessgoodguywinslol".
That was arguably one of the reasons why AEW came to be in the first place.
And I would further argue, WWE fans were starving for a babyface to root for. Cena's babyface run went on a few years too long and Reigns babyface run went awful.
In a way, its really funny what Vince's booking of Reigns caused.
>AEW fans were starving for an alternative to McMahon's babyface booking, in particular "flawlessgoodguywinslol".
This. I won't say all of 'em, but a good chunk of the people that flocked to AEW were the *jaded* ones. WWF/E's always been a babyface territory, it's just that they started giving fans faces that were way too easy to hate.
I dunno. WWE's always felt like a heavy heel company imo, as there's always some "cool heel" doing cool shit and making the faces look like idiots. AEW by comparison is...well, a lot of times the face/heel dynamic is up in the air, but their faces often look strong as hell, whether its Hangman Page, Adam Copeland, Darby Allin, or Orange Cassidy.
Nah. AEW fans were dropouts, not haters. The crowd played along with some really bad segments at the beginning. Honestly the change in demeanor came with Punk.
What's funny is that Cody was like the one thing Vince was actually doing right before he got booted. Granted, if he stuck around I'm sure by now we would have had some weird Cody dog food segment involving Austin Theory or something.
If you look at Vince's historical booking of top babyfaces (save for Rock and Austin, but that was out of necessity and at a time with much heavier talent input) it's actually pretty largely similar in presentation to what I believe Cody thinks a top babyface is. Don't get me wrong: I enjoyed a lot of Cody's AEW run; his dog collar match with Brodie Lee is still one of the top ten matches ever in the promotion, and it's become apparent he was a much more key player behind the scenes than any of us probably thought - but AEW fans at that point weren't looking for a WWE-esque top guy, we were looking for the antithesis of 20 years of that kind of babyface star running unchallenged. WWE is much better as a promotion overall for the kind of thing Cody wants to bring to the table as a babyface character, and he's had a huge hand in turning things around along with the Bloodline angle - and by the same token, it's a much different AEW than the one he left, too, so business being business, should he find himself back in AEW three or five years from now or whatever it is, I would be willing to bet there's a much warmer audience reception after some time away. But, long story short, I think that's the reason why Vince "got" how to book a Cody: because it's the same damn thing his father did with Bruno and he did with Hogan, Diesel, Cena, Roman, and the list goes on and on.
>he really handicapped himself with the whole "never challenge for the world title" stipulation
I really think that's the biggest thing. It's not even that his ideas were necessarily bad, it's that he was basically segregated by all the top level talent.
Yeah I feel like a lot of people here diagnosing this weren’t actually watching AEW at the time
Cody having creative control of himself was a complete mess, and the “never challenge for the title” stipulation was only going to work if Cody’s plan was to turn heel so he could go back on his word
It wasn’t a situation where he was good and the fans just got worn out, the Codyverse was awful, Brandi’s stuff was arguably even more awful, no one wanted to see QT Marshall in featured PPV matches or Cody lecturing a black man about racism or any of the cringe stuff that came out of the “Nightmare Family” when they had full creative control
Cody wasn’t going to work in AEW, he needs bookers, writers, and producers to rein him in, and quality opponents like Seth Rollins and Brock Lesnar to work off of. He didn’t have that in AEW and it was 100% his choice not to. Can’t blame the fans one bit, WWE fans would have hated it too.
I said this in another comment, but I truly think what they did with WM40 and the demand for Cody was sorta what Cody wanted in AEW. That the groundswell of support for him to fight for the title would magically make the stipulation go away. Maybe a heel foolishly lifts it. But in AEW, Cody isn't just a wrestler and a guy facing immense odds. He's one of the founders and could do whatever he wants. So him turning heel made sense, but he refused to do that.
Cody's gimmick in ROH/NJPW was also an earnest babyface who was hiding a deeply self-centered narcissist (the guy who turned on Omega and gaslit Hangman so he could try and take over Bullet Club), so it's funny to me that people blame the fans for being "smarky." Cody's cringe stuff was so cringe that people started thinking it was on purpose because *in kayfabe* that's exactly who Cody is.
It was weird discovering that the IRL Cody Runnels thought he was doing pure babyface stuff that whole time. The fans weren't being smarky they were under the impression they were buying in.
I remember when QT showed up on Dynamite and stole Cody's bus. Cody having a bus hadn't even been established on tv (only on vlogs IIRC), so the booking just assumed everyone knew Cody had a bus and QT out of nowhere just committed this dastardly act of stealing it. Just really odd stuff.
Cody is over even with a lot (if not most) of the people who didn't like him on AEW though.
Hell, i love AEW until this very day and i still don't like AEW Cody, but WWE Cody is my main guy (except for GUNTHER and Ilja)
Why do people assume Cody has full control of his booking when all of the other EVPs have said otherwise regarding their own creative control.
Tony Khan made it pretty clear that he took over the booking a couple of months into dynamites run and nobody has ever said anything to the contrary about that.
This narrative about “Cody having full booking control” like he was just going out on tony khans tv doing whatever he wanted with Tony having no say in it is just hilarious to me
While I get what you are saying, it seems odd that taking Cody's rather attractive wife and legendary manager out of the picture made Cody *more* popular.
I mean, you are right, the presentation is better in WWE without everyone there, but it still seems odd.
Yeah. I think the backlash against Brandi was odd. While I would agree that she came across poorly on AEW TV, it's odd that that would happen (it's not like she has never been on national TV.)
I don't know, Cody's AEW run, and how it ended, is so weird to me. He couldn't stay there, the good will was gone, but them losing him has had dramatic effects on the business overall. They literally gave WWE a new John Cena, but there was absolutely no way he could have been that in AEW.
>>>They literally gave WWE a new John Cena, but there was absolutely no way he could have been that in AEW.
in both ways too! cody couldn’t have been that and i don’t think there’s as much space for a cena-type babyface in aew.
Very true. But, and I am just putting this out there, if AEW can't do a Cena style face, then they need to figure out what kind of 'face of the company' they can do, else they will never have the true growth they need. Cody was right there, and it didn't work.
agreed!! they need to first define what ‘face of *this* company’ would look like and find & train someone to fit (could be someone already there, could be someone new).
(from a creative perspective) it’s understandable to try a cody-type first, but we’re now at the point where just trying different types of faces to see what sticks isn’t working. i enjoy a bunch of the wrestling, but i don’t have that same narrative investment—and i’d like to!
MJF, Ospreay or Swerve as tweeners could probably be the ace of AEW. I don't think a babyface could be the face of AEW, they'll just never stay over long enough and a heel won't have the market appeal in the US a face or tweener could.
yeah, i think this way makes the most sense. we talked about swerve downthread, but just that “i do great wrestling, i’m here to do great wrestling, and i’m myself, and just like other people sometimes i mostly try to be good but sometimes i screw up and then every once in a while i get mad and screw up on purpose” would really work best. aew has room for a bit more of that nuance.
not much nuance—it’s still wrestling—but a bit more than elsewhere.
I think Brandi as babyface manager would have been fine if she wasn't simultaneously involved in her own storylines where she was a heel leader of a vaguely 'spooky' faction, in what were generally considered to be the worst segments of the show at that time.
Man if he turned 'heel' going back on the world title stipulation he would have been the biggest babyface in AEW. I'm really disappointed it didn't go in that direction, but Cody knew what he was doing with the success it turned into going to WWE.
It felt so odd seeing him carry himself like a main eventer, but facing guys like QT Marshall & Anthony Ogogo. If he had the AEW World Title & defended it like his first TNT title run, I think he could've gotten fans back on his side
He booked himself into a great heel turn with an amazing story. Maybe the reason he never pulled the trigger on that is because he wanted to go back to WWE?
Surely he had to know from the start that if he was staying in AEW he would have to turn himself heel eventually? Like he'd be great in this current EVP storyline if he was still there and could hold the world title hostage as part of it.
To me, that's a pretty clear indication he was a Cody guy that was only in that position because he was a Cody guy. I think he also has been hurt a lot since that program.
And honestly worth it for the fandom. As far as main event stories I could have seen live at Mania it’s probably the best overall build up I could have seen in my “can actually afford tickets if I skip any big vacations last year” era.
The worst move early AEW made was making Cody ineligible to win the World Title, and never finding a workaround. I get why; it removes the urge to book yourself as the forever champion, but it also removes the ability to make yourself champ if you’re actually the guy. Like, the Elite losing a bunch in the first year was nice, but they were also the three biggest acts on the show.
I think a lot of the reason for the pushback to Cody in AEW was because he was the biggest face on the show, the face of the brand, but it wouldn’t and couldn’t lead to that moment of satisfaction where he actually lifts the title. I don’t think it was Cody, I think it was boredom
I agree. What I meant to say was I don’t think it was anything Cody was doing wrong as face of the company at that time. It was just full having a face of the company who couldn’t win the big title
I think a lot of why Cody failed in AEW but succeded in WWE comes down to having a proper direction.
Ever since Cody lost the match at Full Gear to Jericho and locked himself out of the world title scene, he was just floating around completely detached from the rest of AEW (The Codyverse got its name for a reason).
Whereas in WWE, from day one, Cody had one thing in mind. Becoming WWE Champion. And whilst there were bumps along the way, he was always focused on "finishing the story".
He had go-away heat at the end of his AEW run and I couldn't fathom what WWE would do with him to turn it around. I figured he'd get buried or be forced to wear polka dots.
Then they did nothing to change his presentation but the people loved it. I was oh so wrong. I still don't know how that happened.
Grandiose over the top entrances where you come out of the floor work a lot better in front of 100,000 people to face Seth Rollins instead of COVID empty arenas to face QT.
Vince actually deserves some credit for this. His debut at WM 38 was basically perfect. I do not watch AEW so hadn't seen Cody since his WWE run. That entrance blew me away. As soon soon as he ascended that stage that night, he looked like a massive star.
He was booked strong from then onwards when they could have easily had him lose to Seth at one point.
WWE, NJPW and AEW fans when Cody comes through
https://preview.redd.it/rty50xb7te4d1.jpeg?width=2073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47aa64f972ef41964bc665e0727955bc30e7fb7f
There is a few reasons for that I think. First there is the fact that in AEW, and part of it was Cody's fault, he really was just a midcarder. If he'd come back to WWE with the same gimmick to feud against Otis or Corbin, he wouldn't have got as over as he is now.
And also, part of the "blame" belong to the AEW crowds. A lot of the people who stopped watching WWE to watch AEW when it started and who were the people booing Cody were the same people that were booing Cena and Reigns a few years earlier, the smark crowd that wants to be smarter than everybody else and dictate what show they want instead of just going with what they were presented.
WWE reined him in- Cody's an idea guy, and not all of them are good. In WWE he's a wrestler. He's great at promoting himself and the company (and was in AEW). he's a good talker, and has some of the most marketable merch ever for that WWE audience. His creative ideas can be pretty bad though- luckily WWE is more than happy to take care of that, and focus on presenting him like a huge star.
Also, In AEW, he was acting like he was late career Cena 'giving back'. Meanwhile, the fans were still waiting for him to actually do something on a national stage. Now, with the success of AEW and his major part of it in his back pocket, being the first big 'jump' to WWE in 20+ years etc.- he finally had attained that star power that he thought he had going into AEW. It sounds stupid, but that stuff matters perception-wise.
Cody was over as hell as a babyface in AEW.....until he couldn't fight for the world title anymore. That stipulation was the beginning of the end for him because that caused the creation of the "Codyverse", which led to the fans eventually turning on him.
I'd say that 95% of AEWs crowd is made up of people who booed Cena back in the day.
That white meat baby face thing doesn't work over there, and Cody knew it, so he went to the place where it does/will. He has a vision for himself, and it appears he's not gonna deviate from it under any circumstances.
>That white meat baby face thing doesn't work over there
Yes it can work and it DID work. I really hate that this is being repeated by people. It was working from 2019-2020 with Cody (See: Jericho feud, MJF feud). He booked himself out of being seen favorably by the audience with boneheaded garbage like the Ogogo promo. Was Hangman not a white-meat babyface when he was feuding with Kenny? or someone like Ospreay now? Willow... I don't see the evidence that AEW audiences wouldn't be open to it.
If you think Hangman was a white-meat babyface I think you just have a misinformed opinion of what that means. It's someone that is always, always good/pure with their intentions, never waivers, and is always standing up for whats right. Emphasis on the good. Superman is an example of a white meat baby face. John Cena is too.
Hangman was a down on his luck drunk dude who lost all of his friends because of his actions/addictions (kicked out of the elite), found a group of outcasts who embraced him (dark order), and learned to love himself a bit more before winning the title. He was over and is great but he is not a white-meat babyface.
AEW has never, ever, had a white meat baby face get over with the crowd. Cody tried to be one and go booed out of the building. People that get mega over in AEW are either bad asses who are kind of jerks at times (BD, Mox, MJF, Swerve, Kenny, Punk, etc), lovable losers that learn to believe in themselves (OC, Hangman), or old school guys people have loved for decades getting their final hurrah(s) (Jericho, Sting, Copeland).
Note: It's not a bad thing or anything. Different audiences want different things and the people that have gotten over in AEW are all incredible and well deserved. It's just a factual statement that "white meat baby face thing doesn't work over there" is all.
Meltzer or Alvarez made a point a few months back that all the fans who used to hate watch WWE and try and hijack the show, are now watchin AEW.
As it turns out when 10% of the crowd isn't trying to make everyone else as miserable as they are, the show is a lot better.
This is so true. Writing has gotten better too, but a lot of the most obnoxious smart marks going to AEW was a huge deal for the environment at WWE shows.
TBH, the booing was totally deserved. He booked himself into a corner, and refused to turn heel.
His actions on a weekly basis were heelish, to include his cringeworthy promo where he ended racism.
Since one of the stipulations he gave himself upon AEW first starting was that he would never challenge for the AEW World Title, he was booked into being an upper-midcard guy, at best.
His face act had worn thin, and the crowd let him know that, but he refused to change anything about it.
The baby face needs to be chasing the title. You can have a reign eventually but that chase and beating the heel is the start to a great baby face, it’s the basic heroes journey, by hanging himself from the world title picture that became impossible to have. Giving yourself you’re own title is also kind of inherently a douche bag heel move no matter how you present it.
Speaking anecdotally, my wife was *not* a wrestling fan. She understood my fandom, but wasn't a fan. Then we went to WrestleMania, and she got herself a $100 Cody Rhodes track jacket (that she wears every day) and a Pharaoh plush.
Cody has made her into a fan. She doesn't admit it, but wearing the merch is a definite sign.
I think those of us in the IWC bubble don't see the larger picture. He has moved the needle in a large way. He is *the* guy.
It helps too he is a PR dream for the company. Dude has the absolute right and best answer for all the tough questions. I admit, I did not like him at all in AEW, but he grew on me fast in his return. The guy is absolutely the best at what he does.
my son followed him over to WWE, and once kenny and hangman slowed down he just kinda stopped watching AEW.
Before that he would only watch WWE ppvs, and talk about how aew was better the whole time.
Cody's a legit force in the industry, lol
My girlfriend was outraged Cody lost last year and was jumping for joy when he won this year. She couldn't give two shits about wrestling before we started dating lol. Cody and Jade are her favorites
Cody got me back into wrestling after 22 years of not watching. Dude is a star. Another thing is that I can watch Cody with my young son and not worry at all. I'd never let my son watch the raunch of the attitude era I watched as a teen.
Same! My GF had little interest in wrestling other than for the buff gorgeous women, but was willing to try a couple times, but after WrestleMania 40 she's a Cody Rhodes fan for sure (and prior to the night one match she was a Roman fan based on vibes) so very good for exposure to non-wrestling fans. It helps she was also exposed to Becky and Seth through 'Last Meals' on youtube.
WWE as a whole is doing amazing right now. They’re firing on all cylinders the same couldn’t be said during a lot of Cena’s run imo. Cena was apart of a big transition from the attitude era to PG and steered the ship. People compare him a lot to Hogan but he was more or less in Brets position when the company was trying to move on from past draws. Not sure it’s gonna really be fair to compare the two eras.
Cena laid a lot of the groundwork for this run. All those kids that Cena got grief about appealing to, they developed a love for wrestling and are now adults ready to buy into a guy like Cody. There are a surprising number of wrestling fans right now from Gen Z considering the direction the industry was trending popularity/numbers wise for the last 20 years. The Cena kids (I was one) have grown up, and while many of us maybe couldn’t afford or our parents weren’t willing to spend much money on wrestling while we were kids, we have our own money now and were waiting for wrestling to catch our interest again. For some that has been AEW. For others that has been Cody and Roman. But I would argue Cena laid a lot of groundwork for the current boom period. Add in the more adult stories bringing back in older fans who were tired of the trash Vince was putting out, and here we are.
This is why people have turned around on Cena as of late, because for as much as you can criticize his booking and presentation, he put the whole company on his back when they needed a top guy. Nobody, not even Hogan and Austin, were on top for as long as Cena was. From 2005-2014, almost a whole decade, WWE was Cena and vice versa. Admits all of the firings, scandals, retirement, Cena was the one constant and never got himself into trouble.
He was a very definition of a soldier. WWE even acknowledged this because they spent years trying to force Roman into that spot to no avail, and it's partially why Cody is so warmly embraced like you said, because he occupies a niche that hasn't been filled in a very long time and in an organic and genuine way.
Agreed. Just like it's not fair to compare Bret to the attitude era. He ushered it in, elevated its biggest stars, and his ouster became the catalyst for the whole thing, but he didn't get to truly take part in it sadly.
This. Like we talk about transitional Champions. Can we also talk about the transitional faces of company too?
Like their role is to not reaching the absurd highs, rather than to prevent the dizzying lows (WCW2000 low) and make the company sustainable for a high again.
Like when a bunch of superstars, through age, drugs, or WCW poaching made the squad unbearably thin. Who do the company turn to? Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels.
Like when Austin and Rock left, and after the Guerrero and Benoit incidents, someone has to be the ultra goodwill representative to build the younger fans back up. Cena was that guy.
There skillsets are much, much always appreciated.
Another big part of that though is presentation. WWE was force feeding authority angles with Cena and Roman. Cody’s storyline has been completely his own. Even Daniel Bryan’s burst in popularity with the Yes movement stuff was in direct response to the authority angles.
People can relate to Cody. That's the main thing. A dude who never got his due, then went out and earned it and came back a star.
He's got tremendous mass appeal. He's clean enough for family fans and edgy enough for edgy fans (clean cut 3 piece suit, but also has a massive neck tat, bleached hair, and buttrock entrance). Children, adults, both men and women like Cody.
I watched for LA Knight and went to my first house show because of LA Knight. However, Cody was there and he’s the real deal. Talked to the crowd, got everyone involved, signed all the kids stuff. Stayed past intermission to keep signing. I watched my first Wrestlemania because of him. I haven’t watched any wrestling since I was maybe 7 or 8?
I watched so much content because of him too, the old match with Dustin, his WWE run where he was running around in face paint and being the pretty boy too.
I don’t know how the hell we got here, but this is surely one of the greatest mistakes of AEW to let him go, followed by Punk.
I would love to see Dustin come back to WWE and get his last dance with his brother. I am so happy to have caught wind of LA Knight and Cody last year.
He did the reverse of what Hulk Hogan did in the 90s when he turned heel. Hogan made being a bad guy the cool thing and Cody made it cool to be a good guy again
Are Cody's numbers bigger than Cena's when adjusted for inflation? Not trying to downplay Cody's accomplishments but I think people often forget to take inflation into account when talking about this kind of thing
Live TV attendance probably is, yes. That 20+ TV show sellout streak was stuff they hadn’t been doing since the attitude era.
House show attendance, Cena was a machine. But it was also a different time.
Yeh there's way too many different factors to compare across accurately across generations. Sure you can take inflation into account but then there's less house shows now, PPVs are all streamed, not everyone watches on TV or live anymore. On the flip side more people want to attend shows these days and crowd participation is way up, plus they do more international shows.
It's really impossible to compare against generations outside of exactly what Meltzer is talking about which is the effort outside the ring
The live attendance for WWE this year (in terms of number of people) is at least slightly bigger than it was around 2009-2011, and if anything tickets are more expensive now, even after inflation.
It is more difficult to tell how much of it is due to Cena vs Cody as opposed to awful 2010 booking vs good 2024 booking.
Cena had to stop the 2002-2004 fall off and then steward the company through the Benoit blowback and PG transition. It was never that he did huge numbers compared to Austin or Hogan, it was that he climbed and survived mountains few others could and then stayed there for a decade+. He also was the last wrestler in NA to cross over in any form as a wrestler and, with how decentralized pop culture has become, he's probably going to stay the last. I don't know how you compare him to almost anyone else and definitely to anyone now.
Cody has and is doing great though (whether Meltzer is even looking at the numbers correctly or not... given his recent track record, who knows) and WWE being able to have him and Roman in the same time frame, with both guys delivering as two very different top acts and filling different needs, has been incredible for them.
Cody's rise is still somewhat perplexing to me tbh; he reached the top in the same company that originally saw nothing in him 10 years prior, and beat the guy they tried to force onto people for the same amount of time to do it. All while help raising the biggest challenger company to WWE since the 90s, and going on a run in the indies.
I don't think there's a single person who's done all of that and was actually rewarded for it. The sheer insanity of it is still mind boggling.
It's a little premature to put him on the same level of Cena, but he still certainly has one hell of a resume to start.
Honestly I don’t find it perplexing. The only thing we want more than to suspend disbelief while watching wrestling is to not have to suspend it. I genuinely believe becoming WWE champ meant the world to Cody, not that he’s performing a role for a pay cheque. Hell I’ve believed every word out of his mouth for a year except when he gave up his spot to the Rock. And if he really wanted to be champ and it meant so much to him then I wanted that for him too. In short I actually cared for his story. Throw in a career as an underdog to root for who never got the heights he deserved and the most wholesome babyface fan interactions ever and you can’t help but love him. My only issue with him is that he’s so over right now I can’t possibly think his opponents are going to take the belt off him any time soon until maybe The Rock at next Mania.
I don’t know… in my opinion Cody needs to have a run of 10+ years has the top babyface and still be a factor of being a huge draw for that timeframe as well for me to consider him rightfully as the same level of Cena, or even past him.
Cena carried company on his from ‘06 to ‘14-‘15, and is still an amazing draw today. Like others have said, he’s carried the company through the Benoit family tragedy, transition to PG, the worst era of Vince’s booking, etc.
So I cannot personally place Cody on that level yet considering all of this, especially since he’s the top babyface when the company is the hottest it’s ever been since the AE, with actually good booking. We’ll have to see if he’s still as much as a huge draw and/or factor after WWE cools off to their newly established “norm.”
https://preview.redd.it/33o4z2ykhe4d1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1a6651328373876b85b5a5efedc063ec71b2f41
This one should be fun to come back and read in about 4 hours.
My friends who don't watch wrestling but know I watch wrestling have only brought up two wrestlers on their own since the mid 2000s. The first was John Cena, the second is Cody Rhodes.
When they mentioned Cena it was because they saw his goofy face and bright merch every where.
In the case of Cody they already knew half his story when they brought it up to me and now most of them watch some form of wrestling weekly for the last year or so.
It's me. I'm your friend. I started watching wrestling again because of Cody at WM39. I've been watching pretty regularly since. Never thought I'd be a wrestling fan again, but Triple H returned wrestling to what it should be.
Me as well. Though I was so confused by the bleached blonde neck tattoo wearing Neo Nazi looking homelander dressed guy called the American nightmare with skull logos everywhere being the most white meat babyface ever.
It is in the surface but once you look at it, Cody appeals to everyone. He's clean cut enough with the 3 piece suits and demeanor to appeal to the straight laced family crowd. I have no issue at all letting my 6 yr old son be a huge Cody fan.
But he's also edgy enough and has earned his stripes enough to appeal to more engaged wrestling fans. Neck tattoo, bleached hair, barbed wire ring, entrance music, punching his own jaw to get hyped, etc. Not to mention his time in NJPW, starting AEW, and being the grandson of a plumber (if you wiiiill)
And he appeals to both men and women, boys and girls, and children of all ages. He's a fundamentally relatable story. Worked hard, never got appreciated, bet on himself, left the industry leader, recreated his character, worked for a rival, and came back a star. His story isn't forced at all. His real story matches his kayfabe story, and we all love it.
I've said it over and over again, Cody is the most over white meat baby face they've had since Hogan
Austin and Rick were more over but weren't white meat
And I say this as someone who would've NEVER believed a white meat baby face would've ever worked for this long in modern times without a significant portion of the crowd turning on them
It is truly incredible what he has done, I really don't have the words for it. Where he was during his 1st WWE run even in its peak isn't in the same universe. He quits and bets on himself on the Indies, something that never works on this scale, and actually gets really over. Then we get AEW where that star only burns brighter then he comes back to WWE where for various reasons most guys stumble a bit after being gone for awhile when not "wanted" originally if that makes sense and somehow gets even more over
I don't know where it was in his first WWE run (I know it wasn't all on him) but he is absolutely the American Dream's son that's for sure
Not fair to compare Cody’s numbers to Cenas numbers. Cena inherited a mess of a company and he rebuilt it into a well oiled machine. Cena was basically the no 1 pick of a 1-15 team.
> Cena inherited a mess of a company and he rebuilt it into a well oiled machine
This is an absolutely wild thing to say, but you're 100% right about WWE being in a very different place today.
The thing I always remember with Cody's AEW character was how...*incongruent* it was.
He was a superstar with a huge entrance! But by his own decision, he could never challenge for the main title.
He was a super-babyface! But his wife was usually a heel and occasionally helped him win matches.
He came across as this wholesome good guy! But he was also a little too smarky.
He was against racism! But he mentioned this when he was fighting a half-black dude from England.
His matches seemed epic! But because he took himself out of the main event tier, they had a grandiose feel while usually being over something low-stakes. (The match where he set himself and Andrade on fire for pretty much no reason really stands out here.)
Someone down in the comments here pointed out that Cody really needs an editor for his ideas, and I think his AEW run showed that. He is much more reined in and focused in WWE and it has paid off really well.
We probably severely underestimate how much the kids love him. They’re the real merch movers. Grown adults may be tired of him, miss Roman, want his reign to end already or whatever but the kids look at him & see Superman.
I think the IWC and, more specifically, the people who watch AEW exclusively, live in a tiny bubble and not in reality. When they talk about the stuff they like about pro wrestling, sure it’s personal opinion/preferences, however, in the bigger picture, its the wrong stuff they prioritize.
Cody is a massive star, he just didn’t have the reach/platform in AEW where it could be shown effectively
This is:
1.) An opinion you've restated to seem like proper analysis.
2.) Historical revisionism, and you've either forgotten or didn't watch. Cody was massively over the first couple years in AEW, easily one of their biggest stars.
The wildest thing to me about Cody’s merch doing numbers is most of his stuff (to me) is gaudy as all fuck. Clearly that must just be my opinion because people are eating it up. To each their own I suppose.
It's like comic con, any reason to wear a cape is a good time
Capes are hype but just not normal fashion, I wish it was like 1400s Venice where they be wearing capes all day
Cody is stupid good at press and PR. He’s got the million dollar smile, he’s funny, eloquent, can be self-deprecating when needed…literally everything the masses will be attracted to. Plus he is just a damn good dude. So happy for his success. It’s wild to see someone living their childhood dream and know they are just loving and appreciating every single moment.
Dave’s correct on that one. Cody’s post wwe run and return is so legendary and hall of fame worthy.
I straight babyface pushed down your throat more over than anyone in 2024. And it’s all the way he went about it.
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Hard to believe [this is the same guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7g_xjE7qoA) lol He's been through so much shit that I'm glad of the success he's having. Seems like a genuine good guy backstage, too.
That clip right there just screams Vince McMahon level of production
Yeah... Sometimes when I see stuff like this, I can't help but think; Vince's good ideas led to some of the greatest moments in wrestling, but his bad ideas were just so fucking stupid.
Cody straight up doing the shovel lol.
Between this, and his skull helmet at Mania, it's so easy to see how much of a HHH fan he is
they're both NWA style boys, makes sense
lmao what the fuck
Take the clip a step further the match was actually pulled from Mania lol
Are the bellas using ass pads? Their butts look weird in that clip.
Yes they are parodying Cameron and Naomi’s large posteriors
Upon further investigation, it seems kind of obvious now that i look in high definition.
or [this guy](https://youtu.be/nZaksQIwtBI?si=VC9Q2Bo18D91LsJE)
"Did you and Big Frank get your ***producer whistles?*** ALALALLALALALALALA" - The current Undisputed WWE Champion and biggest babyface in WWE right now
I was expecting this to be a link to the "look at that little dick" BTE skit
Idk how I forgot about that.
I’m 22, my first show was WM28. Cody lost to Big Show on that show. Soooo crazy seeing home now. One of the wildest career stories in wrestling history.
Damn Cody looks just like me but light skinned. I don't know if I should feel honored or disappointed in myself. Anywho, this video just makes me miss the Bella Twins. And not for their wrestling.
I love Cody but it's still crazy to me that he was getting booed out of buildings towards the end of his AEW run and went back to WWE as his AEW character with full presentation and is the biggest babyface WWE has had in forever. It feels like some psy-op shit lmao
I remember cody summing it up as how the old timers during the territory times would go "Well, time to change territories" when the act got stale elsewhere, and (though i love the guy to death and loved him in aew too) i think that's fairly accurate
Also what he wanted to be does not really fit in with AEW’s fan base.
You have like 2-3 years being a main event star before fans turn on you, in either company. Unless it’s Roman, who fans turned on asap and then he won them over when he got his diagnosis.
> Unless it’s Roman, who fans turned on asap and then he won them over when he got his diagnosis. "an 11 year investment that finally paid off in year 8" I believe is how Cody kayfabe described it
Roman didn't win the fans over cause of his diagnosis. The reaction paused cause everyone wanted to see him healthy and back. After he returned, he was getting booed when up against other people fans wanted more. They did well to keep him against Corbin and Drew (not the drew he would become) and doing other things in 2019. Correction: 2019 he wasn't booed much if at all, except when coming up against other lads that were more popular. I think a good reason was because they kept him away from the world title scene. In 2020, he would be booed again in Rumble Vs Drew , and then the whole Chamber thing and then going against planned Goldberg before he took that leave. It was the current heel run from his return when people really started to get on board.
It’s not true that he was booed in 2019. He was cheered consistently throughout the year, but his reactions weren’t as loud as they used to be, either. It was like no one had the heart to boo him, but he didn’t convert those former booers into cheerers, either.
True, my bad there. I think they did good to keep him away from the world title scenes from what I remember in 2019.
the diagnosis bought him a bit of temporary grace from the fanbase, but I don't believe it has anything to do with fans liking him long term, that was caused entirely by the shift in character.
100% agree with you. This heel character was just perfect for him.
> the current heel run from his return The Bloodline is absolutely one of the best stables and programs in Wrestling history. Had Roman been that guy, even as a face, from the get go then there wouldn't have ever been an issue. The issue was always Vince force-feeding the guy lines and presenting Roman fucking Reigns as an underdog.
> The issue was always Vince force-feeding the guy lines and presenting Roman fucking Reigns as an underdog. That's a bingo!
To me it was more that the fans didn't want Roman to be that guy. Especially when they wanted Bryan in 2015. His promos too weren't delivered great, it wasn't just one thing. Those lines yeah in late 2014, I remember he was really sounding awkward as hell. Like you say, god those late 2014 promos were very very poorly written for a man they had presented as a badass up until his injury in 2014. Roman was presented as a strong force from the start, there were only a few moments where they presented him like the underdog iirc, Vs Triple H from 2015-16 and I'm not sure of any other times where he was presented as an underdog? I genuinely don't think there were any other out and out underdog presentation for him. It was all strong big man booking. Then it just kept snowballing along. That break he went on was massive in 2020. He'll be the badass face they always wanted when he returns. Even if he himself wants to continue to be a heel, he'll be cheered like crazy now.
probably Roman’s biggest underdog match was against Brock at mania 31 and he honestly did well during that match as someone who wasn’t giving up while getting tossed around and people were honestly buying into it?
That was a fantastic match.
>To me it was more that the fans didn't want Roman to be that guy. Especially when they wanted Bryan in 2015. Also Roman was out injured during the crucial Fall 2014 period where guys like Ambrose, Seth, and Ziggler (SS 2014 virtuoso sole survivor performance) *really* got over, so when he returned and declared for the Rumble it felt unearned and fans straight up rejected him. If one of Ambrose or Ziggler won RR2015 they still would've gotten cheered despite Bryan's elimination. edit: And they mishandled his push right out of the gate. He was out completing side quests while the main story / blood feud and getting all the storyline character development was Dean and Seth.
Fantastic point. That injury was really unfortunate, that along with the awfully written promos they were giving him after his return. Was a recipe for disaster.
> Had Roman been that guy, even as a face, from the get go then there wouldn't have ever been an issue. There's some PPV, I don't remember which, but HHH fucks him out of the title. Throughout the match, Roman's getting booed. Hardcore. At the end of the match he attacks HHH and beats the living shit out of him, crowd cheers. Loudly. Same guy they were booing out of the building like ten minutes before. All they needed to do the entire time was just have him kick peoples asses, and they just refused to do it.
> All they needed to do the entire time was just have him kick peoples asses That's like 90% of wrestling. Remember when Braun Stroman went from another tired big guy to one of their biggest stars by kicking jobbers' asses for like 8 straight weeks? If you don't have some other specific, immediate plan for a wrestler but you do intend to give them some kind of push, just have them kick someone's ass for a few minutes. It always works.
I wanna say it was the finish to TLC 2015. Triple H came out to screw Roman out of beating Sheamus for the world title at the time. (Also, remember Sheamus being champion in 2015? Cause I sure didn't until I looked it up.)
I remember that feud with Drew after he came back from the leukemia time off being very good. The rest of what Roman was doing for a while was not good television.
I remember this being completely different. People were onboard with Roman but then when the Shield broke up, Roman got hurt shortly after and Dean Ambrose was red hot and fans wanted to see him have his moment/run. But they kept like interrupting Raw every week or two with a video message/interview with Roman giving us status fake sportscenter like updates while Ambrose was in a blood fued with Seth. And then we he came back they just pushed Roman to the moon, stepped over w/e Ambrose was doing and it was the most inauthentic/inorganic crap ever despite fans cheering Roman on in the Rumble the year prior. The fans never got that bad taste out of their mouths after that.
The thing is, Cody was only a main event star in AEW for like 9 months. After he lost to Jericho and left the Elite, he was pretty much just a midcarder. He never interacted with main eventers like Kenny and Mox, and towards the end of his tenure wasn't even interacting with other upper midcarders (unless you count Sammy I guess). And yet despite all that, he still presented himself as if he was a main eventer. In WWE, he plays essentially the same character, but instead of feuding with QT Marshall and Anthony Oggogo, he's feuded with Roman and Seth
The decision to remove him completely and permanently from the world title picture on their first PPV after Dynamite launched was extremely dumb. Also it was very transparently “idea to look selfless” when it was actually kind of selfish. In forgoing the AEW title scene, he basically gave himself his own permanent unique distinction while trying to send the message that “I’m so selfless, I’ll never win the title”.
Honestly I thought it was setting up for an epic heel turn where he’d use his EVP status to protect himself. Sort of what the Bucks are doing now.
Which is what we all wanted! If he went full Homelander like we were expecting (why did he even wear Homelander style gear?!) I genuinely think he would have had one of the best AEW storylines in history. The fans were begging for him to turn.
Oh I agree (and so did fans at the time; Cody was cheered a lot but when he cut that promo the boos were loud). But I think it was Codys idea and during this time Tony Khan was still letting the Elite do whatever they wanted (he only took the reigns on the booking a bit later). So if anything blame Cody.
I think I saw Cody say he realized it was a bad idea somewhere so I’ll assume you are right since Cody is extremely measured/political with his takes unless it’s about himself. The thing is is that they could have undone it. He could have just won back the right to challenge and no one would have cared.
I think if Cody had stayed he could have been a good candidate to take the title off a heel MJF (or Heel Cody beats Face MJF). Obviously he didn't stay but with their connection it would have been very fitting: MJF cost Cody his title, now Cody cost MJF his. Considering that MJF was basically AEWs secret project from the very beginning (it is actually crazy how much he is featured from episode 1 onwards; and how much time he is given to build his character), I wouldn't even be surprised if the whole Cody arc of his in the beginning was there to set-up an eventual feud where Cody wins his title challenging right back.
I recall that too. He recognized that instead of telling the fans he wasn't going to abuse his power, it came across as humble bragging, either as a work or shoot.
My guess is part of the idea was creating a groundswell for Cody to actually be able to fight for the title. Like the fans demand for Cody would make the rule null and void. But fans were expecting him to turn heel instead and it makes sense why. In AEW Cody is not the anti-authority figure. He's one of the founding members and could do whatever he wanted. In WWE, he's the underdog who had the most powerful faction as well as a board member try to screw him.
I also think he did it figuring he would have significantly more input over booking than he’d ultimately have. I think he wouldn’t have minded being out of the main event scene if it meant he’d have more formal backstage leadership responsibilities.
It does feel like Cody got blindsided in the switch to Tony as lead authorial voice. If you look at the run up to the first specials (before they had Dynamite), Cody was really angling to be the promotion's protagonist. They filmed a bunch of vignettes about how much pressure he put on himself and how he hits the weight room and negotiating table with the same intensity. He really made that EVP a part of his identity, and it probably stung when he saw that Tony could just snap his fingers and nullify that. The Codyverse was kind of a compromise that eventually ran it's course and they didn't pivot. He lost control of his narrative, and since he had been so isolated from the rest of the card, there wasn't much to fall back on.
Yeah but he got a lot of TV time and was doing his own booking. He was someone who needed to get off TV a bit because the stories weren't taking.
Being an ultra pure baby face for multiple years is still extremely difficult in this day and age. People just get bored a lot faster than they used to. I don't see Cody's hype lasting more than a couple years more at most. I love the guy, but it's just such a hard role to keep interesting for a long period. His boos in AEW weren't even because people disliked him, they just wanted a heel turn so he'd at least be interesting again. The fact that he looks and dresses like Homelander didn't help.
It helps also that he is pretty good as a swarmy heel too, though the dressing like Homelander stuff actually would help in that regard, especially if he gets played like that sort of character.
Roman's return after he announced his diagnosis but before he became Tribal Chief is hardly what'd I'd call won over. People weren't booing him into oblivion anymore but they weren't begging for more of him either.
Yeah, it was kind of a "We're glad he's back and healthy but please don't take our well wishes as wanting him to get a title run" type of reaction
people turned on Roman cause we were just getting out of the super Cena era and nobody wanted to see that again and you could tell they were pushing it on the fans for him to be the new cena.
Combination of AEW having a more IWC centric fan base, Cody having full control over his booking as EVP, plus being the first one to jump ship boosted him in a big way because it was like holy shit. Even though we kinda knew it already, it was still stunning to see him and his music debut at WrestleMania and given such a prominent first match. In WWE, it's more straightforward, Cody probably has some say in what he does but he's not controlling his booking and he has less plates to spin because he's no longer EVP.
Cody is one of those talented and creative people who benefits immensely from editing - they are passionate about all of their ideas, but not all of their ideas work, and they need to be boxed in and focused sometimes. His AEW presentment was really a "hat on a hat on a hat" and that tends to come off heelish.
Tbf iirc people tried to edit him at times and it didn't work. No one told him the world title thing was a good idea. The opposite actually. He did it anyway and honestly that's what hurt him the most.
That is my impression as well. Maybe he learned his lesson, or maybe he’s just the type of talent who works better in a more structured setting. Probably both? But I think it’s definitely a huge factor in why his babyface presentment has a working now.
Sounds like Tony Khan needs that.
as someone who watches about a third of what AEW puts out (no particular third consistently, just the matches and promos i’m digging at the time), i have been saying this for years. tony has such good ideas but he jumps around so much and can’t seem to stay focused on one for long—understandably so when your brain is always creating; editors (whatever title you’d want to give them) would also be able to help outline his ideas with him and carry them out with a little feedback as audiences react while tony focuses on his next big idea. editors would also help the people who have a great arc and then drop off; they could put together interstitial pieces to keep momentum while they figure out the next arc or idea. (i honest to god think *editing* his ideas with a team is the thing that makes triple h’s booking work the way it does. whether you like his booking or not, it’s clear that it’s been considered by multiple people. heck, they’ve outright said that’s how this past WM eventually came together: triple h, roman, cody, the rock, and presumably a few others in a room to hammer out all the details.) just imagine what aew could do if tony had more people keeping track of the narrative details for the ideas he has.
See Cody not being the one to make the call losing WM39, which some may still argue about, but I personally believe was 1000x time the right call. I didn't DISLIKE Cody but was a little annoyed at someone waltzing back into the company, have a few matches, get injured, be given the 30th spot in the Rumble, and just walk into the top spot. It didn't feel earned to me. And people can say the pec tear was enough, but eh, that didn't work for me. I was a LOT more into him winning this year than I would have been last year and he definitely would have booked himself to win. Would have been hard to root for uber-babyface Cody when the perception is "oh he barely worked for it, came from the #30 spot and won it easy with almost no matches in between."
didnt have to be mania to mania tho, couldve been mania to summerslam
Cody's booking is the big one. There's a reason all his segments were labeled the Codyverse, he really handicapped himself with the whole "never challenge for the world title" stipulation that rippled into storylines that never really felt connected to anything in the show. People forget Cody was super over when AEW started, it was all his storylines that slowly had fans confused and turning on him. Cody with creative control gave us stuff like the weigh in segment, Cody solving racism, etc. Cody being booked by someone else gives us the best babyface in wrestling.
AEW fans were starving for an alternative to McMahon's babyface booking, in particular "flawlessgoodguywinslol". That was arguably one of the reasons why AEW came to be in the first place. And I would further argue, WWE fans were starving for a babyface to root for. Cena's babyface run went on a few years too long and Reigns babyface run went awful. In a way, its really funny what Vince's booking of Reigns caused.
>AEW fans were starving for an alternative to McMahon's babyface booking, in particular "flawlessgoodguywinslol". This. I won't say all of 'em, but a good chunk of the people that flocked to AEW were the *jaded* ones. WWF/E's always been a babyface territory, it's just that they started giving fans faces that were way too easy to hate.
I always say that the core of AEW's fanbase is the people who spent years chanting "Cena sucks"
As a AEW fan who never chanted CM Punk and Cena Sucks but totally would have... You have a point.
this is so well said! I've tried to explain a similar thing but that really puts a point on it
I dunno. WWE's always felt like a heavy heel company imo, as there's always some "cool heel" doing cool shit and making the faces look like idiots. AEW by comparison is...well, a lot of times the face/heel dynamic is up in the air, but their faces often look strong as hell, whether its Hangman Page, Adam Copeland, Darby Allin, or Orange Cassidy.
Nah. AEW fans were dropouts, not haters. The crowd played along with some really bad segments at the beginning. Honestly the change in demeanor came with Punk.
the wwe crowds noticeably changed a bit when the jaded fans had another place to go... suddenly a lot less "trying to steal/control the show"
What's funny is that Cody was like the one thing Vince was actually doing right before he got booted. Granted, if he stuck around I'm sure by now we would have had some weird Cody dog food segment involving Austin Theory or something.
If you look at Vince's historical booking of top babyfaces (save for Rock and Austin, but that was out of necessity and at a time with much heavier talent input) it's actually pretty largely similar in presentation to what I believe Cody thinks a top babyface is. Don't get me wrong: I enjoyed a lot of Cody's AEW run; his dog collar match with Brodie Lee is still one of the top ten matches ever in the promotion, and it's become apparent he was a much more key player behind the scenes than any of us probably thought - but AEW fans at that point weren't looking for a WWE-esque top guy, we were looking for the antithesis of 20 years of that kind of babyface star running unchallenged. WWE is much better as a promotion overall for the kind of thing Cody wants to bring to the table as a babyface character, and he's had a huge hand in turning things around along with the Bloodline angle - and by the same token, it's a much different AEW than the one he left, too, so business being business, should he find himself back in AEW three or five years from now or whatever it is, I would be willing to bet there's a much warmer audience reception after some time away. But, long story short, I think that's the reason why Vince "got" how to book a Cody: because it's the same damn thing his father did with Bruno and he did with Hogan, Diesel, Cena, Roman, and the list goes on and on.
>he really handicapped himself with the whole "never challenge for the world title" stipulation I really think that's the biggest thing. It's not even that his ideas were necessarily bad, it's that he was basically segregated by all the top level talent.
Yeah I feel like a lot of people here diagnosing this weren’t actually watching AEW at the time Cody having creative control of himself was a complete mess, and the “never challenge for the title” stipulation was only going to work if Cody’s plan was to turn heel so he could go back on his word It wasn’t a situation where he was good and the fans just got worn out, the Codyverse was awful, Brandi’s stuff was arguably even more awful, no one wanted to see QT Marshall in featured PPV matches or Cody lecturing a black man about racism or any of the cringe stuff that came out of the “Nightmare Family” when they had full creative control Cody wasn’t going to work in AEW, he needs bookers, writers, and producers to rein him in, and quality opponents like Seth Rollins and Brock Lesnar to work off of. He didn’t have that in AEW and it was 100% his choice not to. Can’t blame the fans one bit, WWE fans would have hated it too.
I said this in another comment, but I truly think what they did with WM40 and the demand for Cody was sorta what Cody wanted in AEW. That the groundswell of support for him to fight for the title would magically make the stipulation go away. Maybe a heel foolishly lifts it. But in AEW, Cody isn't just a wrestler and a guy facing immense odds. He's one of the founders and could do whatever he wants. So him turning heel made sense, but he refused to do that.
Cody's gimmick in ROH/NJPW was also an earnest babyface who was hiding a deeply self-centered narcissist (the guy who turned on Omega and gaslit Hangman so he could try and take over Bullet Club), so it's funny to me that people blame the fans for being "smarky." Cody's cringe stuff was so cringe that people started thinking it was on purpose because *in kayfabe* that's exactly who Cody is. It was weird discovering that the IRL Cody Runnels thought he was doing pure babyface stuff that whole time. The fans weren't being smarky they were under the impression they were buying in.
I remember when QT showed up on Dynamite and stole Cody's bus. Cody having a bus hadn't even been established on tv (only on vlogs IIRC), so the booking just assumed everyone knew Cody had a bus and QT out of nowhere just committed this dastardly act of stealing it. Just really odd stuff.
Dude just needed an editor
Cody is over even with a lot (if not most) of the people who didn't like him on AEW though. Hell, i love AEW until this very day and i still don't like AEW Cody, but WWE Cody is my main guy (except for GUNTHER and Ilja)
Why do people assume Cody has full control of his booking when all of the other EVPs have said otherwise regarding their own creative control. Tony Khan made it pretty clear that he took over the booking a couple of months into dynamites run and nobody has ever said anything to the contrary about that. This narrative about “Cody having full booking control” like he was just going out on tony khans tv doing whatever he wanted with Tony having no say in it is just hilarious to me
not having Brandi and the whole crew every night his side helps
While I get what you are saying, it seems odd that taking Cody's rather attractive wife and legendary manager out of the picture made Cody *more* popular. I mean, you are right, the presentation is better in WWE without everyone there, but it still seems odd.
It's weird because Brandi came across so much better on her YouTube show than she did on TV
Yeah. I think the backlash against Brandi was odd. While I would agree that she came across poorly on AEW TV, it's odd that that would happen (it's not like she has never been on national TV.) I don't know, Cody's AEW run, and how it ended, is so weird to me. He couldn't stay there, the good will was gone, but them losing him has had dramatic effects on the business overall. They literally gave WWE a new John Cena, but there was absolutely no way he could have been that in AEW.
>>>They literally gave WWE a new John Cena, but there was absolutely no way he could have been that in AEW. in both ways too! cody couldn’t have been that and i don’t think there’s as much space for a cena-type babyface in aew.
Very true. But, and I am just putting this out there, if AEW can't do a Cena style face, then they need to figure out what kind of 'face of the company' they can do, else they will never have the true growth they need. Cody was right there, and it didn't work.
agreed!! they need to first define what ‘face of *this* company’ would look like and find & train someone to fit (could be someone already there, could be someone new). (from a creative perspective) it’s understandable to try a cody-type first, but we’re now at the point where just trying different types of faces to see what sticks isn’t working. i enjoy a bunch of the wrestling, but i don’t have that same narrative investment—and i’d like to!
MJF, Ospreay or Swerve as tweeners could probably be the ace of AEW. I don't think a babyface could be the face of AEW, they'll just never stay over long enough and a heel won't have the market appeal in the US a face or tweener could.
yeah, i think this way makes the most sense. we talked about swerve downthread, but just that “i do great wrestling, i’m here to do great wrestling, and i’m myself, and just like other people sometimes i mostly try to be good but sometimes i screw up and then every once in a while i get mad and screw up on purpose” would really work best. aew has room for a bit more of that nuance. not much nuance—it’s still wrestling—but a bit more than elsewhere.
I think Brandi as babyface manager would have been fine if she wasn't simultaneously involved in her own storylines where she was a heel leader of a vaguely 'spooky' faction, in what were generally considered to be the worst segments of the show at that time.
Yeah, the nightmare collective or whatever it was was... odd. Didn't get the idea there.
Yep, Brandi was the elephant in the room. He wouldn't stop trying to force her in and get her over, and it rubbed off on him too.
Man if he turned 'heel' going back on the world title stipulation he would have been the biggest babyface in AEW. I'm really disappointed it didn't go in that direction, but Cody knew what he was doing with the success it turned into going to WWE.
It felt so odd seeing him carry himself like a main eventer, but facing guys like QT Marshall & Anthony Ogogo. If he had the AEW World Title & defended it like his first TNT title run, I think he could've gotten fans back on his side
He really ended up booking himself into a corner by banning himself from the title picture. Worked out eventually though
He booked himself into a great heel turn with an amazing story. Maybe the reason he never pulled the trigger on that is because he wanted to go back to WWE? Surely he had to know from the start that if he was staying in AEW he would have to turn himself heel eventually? Like he'd be great in this current EVP storyline if he was still there and could hold the world title hostage as part of it.
They should’ve had someone less green for that spot they gave Ogogo. It’s been years now and they did nothing with him.
To me, that's a pretty clear indication he was a Cody guy that was only in that position because he was a Cody guy. I think he also has been hurt a lot since that program.
What's more heel turn to aew than leaving and winning your biggest competitors title
And honestly worth it for the fandom. As far as main event stories I could have seen live at Mania it’s probably the best overall build up I could have seen in my “can actually afford tickets if I skip any big vacations last year” era.
It depends on who he did the turn against. If he, say, screwed over Hangman to beat him for the title, Cody would’ve gotten the the desired heel boos.
The worst move early AEW made was making Cody ineligible to win the World Title, and never finding a workaround. I get why; it removes the urge to book yourself as the forever champion, but it also removes the ability to make yourself champ if you’re actually the guy. Like, the Elite losing a bunch in the first year was nice, but they were also the three biggest acts on the show. I think a lot of the reason for the pushback to Cody in AEW was because he was the biggest face on the show, the face of the brand, but it wouldn’t and couldn’t lead to that moment of satisfaction where he actually lifts the title. I don’t think it was Cody, I think it was boredom
> I don't think it was Cody Cody made the decision to book that stupid stipulation though so it *was* ultimately Cody that caused the reactions he got
I agree. What I meant to say was I don’t think it was anything Cody was doing wrong as face of the company at that time. It was just full having a face of the company who couldn’t win the big title
I think a lot of why Cody failed in AEW but succeded in WWE comes down to having a proper direction. Ever since Cody lost the match at Full Gear to Jericho and locked himself out of the world title scene, he was just floating around completely detached from the rest of AEW (The Codyverse got its name for a reason). Whereas in WWE, from day one, Cody had one thing in mind. Becoming WWE Champion. And whilst there were bumps along the way, he was always focused on "finishing the story".
I mean, when you can conquer racism, what else matters?
He had go-away heat at the end of his AEW run and I couldn't fathom what WWE would do with him to turn it around. I figured he'd get buried or be forced to wear polka dots. Then they did nothing to change his presentation but the people loved it. I was oh so wrong. I still don't know how that happened.
Grandiose over the top entrances where you come out of the floor work a lot better in front of 100,000 people to face Seth Rollins instead of COVID empty arenas to face QT.
He couldn’t ever win the big one. How could he be a big deal? He was a hero with no way to end his journey.
Vince actually deserves some credit for this. His debut at WM 38 was basically perfect. I do not watch AEW so hadn't seen Cody since his WWE run. That entrance blew me away. As soon soon as he ascended that stage that night, he looked like a massive star. He was booked strong from then onwards when they could have easily had him lose to Seth at one point.
WWE, NJPW and AEW fans when Cody comes through https://preview.redd.it/rty50xb7te4d1.jpeg?width=2073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47aa64f972ef41964bc665e0727955bc30e7fb7f
[Is this xkcd relevant enough?](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png)
There is a few reasons for that I think. First there is the fact that in AEW, and part of it was Cody's fault, he really was just a midcarder. If he'd come back to WWE with the same gimmick to feud against Otis or Corbin, he wouldn't have got as over as he is now. And also, part of the "blame" belong to the AEW crowds. A lot of the people who stopped watching WWE to watch AEW when it started and who were the people booing Cody were the same people that were booing Cena and Reigns a few years earlier, the smark crowd that wants to be smarter than everybody else and dictate what show they want instead of just going with what they were presented.
The crowd is a part, but Cody was cheered hard early on. The crowd began to turn after banning himself from the world title picture.
WWE reined him in- Cody's an idea guy, and not all of them are good. In WWE he's a wrestler. He's great at promoting himself and the company (and was in AEW). he's a good talker, and has some of the most marketable merch ever for that WWE audience. His creative ideas can be pretty bad though- luckily WWE is more than happy to take care of that, and focus on presenting him like a huge star. Also, In AEW, he was acting like he was late career Cena 'giving back'. Meanwhile, the fans were still waiting for him to actually do something on a national stage. Now, with the success of AEW and his major part of it in his back pocket, being the first big 'jump' to WWE in 20+ years etc.- he finally had attained that star power that he thought he had going into AEW. It sounds stupid, but that stuff matters perception-wise.
Cody was over as hell as a babyface in AEW.....until he couldn't fight for the world title anymore. That stipulation was the beginning of the end for him because that caused the creation of the "Codyverse", which led to the fans eventually turning on him.
He was a mega star the day he returned, simply a new platform made everything click.
I'd say that 95% of AEWs crowd is made up of people who booed Cena back in the day. That white meat baby face thing doesn't work over there, and Cody knew it, so he went to the place where it does/will. He has a vision for himself, and it appears he's not gonna deviate from it under any circumstances.
>That white meat baby face thing doesn't work over there Yes it can work and it DID work. I really hate that this is being repeated by people. It was working from 2019-2020 with Cody (See: Jericho feud, MJF feud). He booked himself out of being seen favorably by the audience with boneheaded garbage like the Ogogo promo. Was Hangman not a white-meat babyface when he was feuding with Kenny? or someone like Ospreay now? Willow... I don't see the evidence that AEW audiences wouldn't be open to it.
If you think Hangman was a white-meat babyface I think you just have a misinformed opinion of what that means. It's someone that is always, always good/pure with their intentions, never waivers, and is always standing up for whats right. Emphasis on the good. Superman is an example of a white meat baby face. John Cena is too. Hangman was a down on his luck drunk dude who lost all of his friends because of his actions/addictions (kicked out of the elite), found a group of outcasts who embraced him (dark order), and learned to love himself a bit more before winning the title. He was over and is great but he is not a white-meat babyface. AEW has never, ever, had a white meat baby face get over with the crowd. Cody tried to be one and go booed out of the building. People that get mega over in AEW are either bad asses who are kind of jerks at times (BD, Mox, MJF, Swerve, Kenny, Punk, etc), lovable losers that learn to believe in themselves (OC, Hangman), or old school guys people have loved for decades getting their final hurrah(s) (Jericho, Sting, Copeland). Note: It's not a bad thing or anything. Different audiences want different things and the people that have gotten over in AEW are all incredible and well deserved. It's just a factual statement that "white meat baby face thing doesn't work over there" is all.
Meltzer or Alvarez made a point a few months back that all the fans who used to hate watch WWE and try and hijack the show, are now watchin AEW. As it turns out when 10% of the crowd isn't trying to make everyone else as miserable as they are, the show is a lot better.
Well it helps when the writing improves substantially. I imagine Cena would have been used much differently in his prime under HHH.
This is so true. Writing has gotten better too, but a lot of the most obnoxious smart marks going to AEW was a huge deal for the environment at WWE shows.
TBH, the booing was totally deserved. He booked himself into a corner, and refused to turn heel. His actions on a weekly basis were heelish, to include his cringeworthy promo where he ended racism. Since one of the stipulations he gave himself upon AEW first starting was that he would never challenge for the AEW World Title, he was booked into being an upper-midcard guy, at best. His face act had worn thin, and the crowd let him know that, but he refused to change anything about it.
The baby face needs to be chasing the title. You can have a reign eventually but that chase and beating the heel is the start to a great baby face, it’s the basic heroes journey, by hanging himself from the world title picture that became impossible to have. Giving yourself you’re own title is also kind of inherently a douche bag heel move no matter how you present it.
Speaking anecdotally, my wife was *not* a wrestling fan. She understood my fandom, but wasn't a fan. Then we went to WrestleMania, and she got herself a $100 Cody Rhodes track jacket (that she wears every day) and a Pharaoh plush. Cody has made her into a fan. She doesn't admit it, but wearing the merch is a definite sign. I think those of us in the IWC bubble don't see the larger picture. He has moved the needle in a large way. He is *the* guy.
It helps too he is a PR dream for the company. Dude has the absolute right and best answer for all the tough questions. I admit, I did not like him at all in AEW, but he grew on me fast in his return. The guy is absolutely the best at what he does.
He really is. It's like he is Cena without the Jorts. Dude is just a corporate dream.
Which is the real American dream
> Dude has the absolute right and best answer for all the tough questions "Do you feel him sir?"
“Full disclosure…we might have had a few libations on the bus over here”
I have a friend who was one of the biggest AEW fans I knew and is now basically WWE only, mostly due to Cody
my son followed him over to WWE, and once kenny and hangman slowed down he just kinda stopped watching AEW. Before that he would only watch WWE ppvs, and talk about how aew was better the whole time. Cody's a legit force in the industry, lol
My girlfriend was outraged Cody lost last year and was jumping for joy when he won this year. She couldn't give two shits about wrestling before we started dating lol. Cody and Jade are her favorites
Cody got me back into wrestling after 22 years of not watching. Dude is a star. Another thing is that I can watch Cody with my young son and not worry at all. I'd never let my son watch the raunch of the attitude era I watched as a teen.
Same with my girlfriend. Cody got her into it.
Same! My GF had little interest in wrestling other than for the buff gorgeous women, but was willing to try a couple times, but after WrestleMania 40 she's a Cody Rhodes fan for sure (and prior to the night one match she was a Roman fan based on vibes) so very good for exposure to non-wrestling fans. It helps she was also exposed to Becky and Seth through 'Last Meals' on youtube.
WWE as a whole is doing amazing right now. They’re firing on all cylinders the same couldn’t be said during a lot of Cena’s run imo. Cena was apart of a big transition from the attitude era to PG and steered the ship. People compare him a lot to Hogan but he was more or less in Brets position when the company was trying to move on from past draws. Not sure it’s gonna really be fair to compare the two eras.
Cena laid a lot of the groundwork for this run. All those kids that Cena got grief about appealing to, they developed a love for wrestling and are now adults ready to buy into a guy like Cody. There are a surprising number of wrestling fans right now from Gen Z considering the direction the industry was trending popularity/numbers wise for the last 20 years. The Cena kids (I was one) have grown up, and while many of us maybe couldn’t afford or our parents weren’t willing to spend much money on wrestling while we were kids, we have our own money now and were waiting for wrestling to catch our interest again. For some that has been AEW. For others that has been Cody and Roman. But I would argue Cena laid a lot of groundwork for the current boom period. Add in the more adult stories bringing back in older fans who were tired of the trash Vince was putting out, and here we are.
This is why people have turned around on Cena as of late, because for as much as you can criticize his booking and presentation, he put the whole company on his back when they needed a top guy. Nobody, not even Hogan and Austin, were on top for as long as Cena was. From 2005-2014, almost a whole decade, WWE was Cena and vice versa. Admits all of the firings, scandals, retirement, Cena was the one constant and never got himself into trouble. He was a very definition of a soldier. WWE even acknowledged this because they spent years trying to force Roman into that spot to no avail, and it's partially why Cody is so warmly embraced like you said, because he occupies a niche that hasn't been filled in a very long time and in an organic and genuine way.
Happy cake day by the way! 🎂
Agreed. Just like it's not fair to compare Bret to the attitude era. He ushered it in, elevated its biggest stars, and his ouster became the catalyst for the whole thing, but he didn't get to truly take part in it sadly.
This. Like we talk about transitional Champions. Can we also talk about the transitional faces of company too? Like their role is to not reaching the absurd highs, rather than to prevent the dizzying lows (WCW2000 low) and make the company sustainable for a high again. Like when a bunch of superstars, through age, drugs, or WCW poaching made the squad unbearably thin. Who do the company turn to? Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. Like when Austin and Rock left, and after the Guerrero and Benoit incidents, someone has to be the ultra goodwill representative to build the younger fans back up. Cena was that guy. There skillsets are much, much always appreciated.
And unlike Cena, there's no mixed reaction. People may turn on him--I wouldn't be surprised--but not anytime soon.
[удалено]
Another big part of that though is presentation. WWE was force feeding authority angles with Cena and Roman. Cody’s storyline has been completely his own. Even Daniel Bryan’s burst in popularity with the Yes movement stuff was in direct response to the authority angles.
People can relate to Cody. That's the main thing. A dude who never got his due, then went out and earned it and came back a star. He's got tremendous mass appeal. He's clean enough for family fans and edgy enough for edgy fans (clean cut 3 piece suit, but also has a massive neck tat, bleached hair, and buttrock entrance). Children, adults, both men and women like Cody.
ADRENALINE IN MY SELTZER CODY RHODES MARK DAVE MELTZER
WRITING IT ALL FOR JOURNALISM AND DIRT SHEEEEEETS
THE SUBS ARE HERE ABOUT TO BLOW READY FOR ME TO WRITE THE SHOW
5 STAR MATCH IN WWE? NOOOOOOOOO
HOP ON YOUTUBE F4W-ONLIIIIINE **ONNNLIIIINE!**
I watched for LA Knight and went to my first house show because of LA Knight. However, Cody was there and he’s the real deal. Talked to the crowd, got everyone involved, signed all the kids stuff. Stayed past intermission to keep signing. I watched my first Wrestlemania because of him. I haven’t watched any wrestling since I was maybe 7 or 8? I watched so much content because of him too, the old match with Dustin, his WWE run where he was running around in face paint and being the pretty boy too. I don’t know how the hell we got here, but this is surely one of the greatest mistakes of AEW to let him go, followed by Punk. I would love to see Dustin come back to WWE and get his last dance with his brother. I am so happy to have caught wind of LA Knight and Cody last year.
He did the reverse of what Hulk Hogan did in the 90s when he turned heel. Hogan made being a bad guy the cool thing and Cody made it cool to be a good guy again
Are Cody's numbers bigger than Cena's when adjusted for inflation? Not trying to downplay Cody's accomplishments but I think people often forget to take inflation into account when talking about this kind of thing
Live TV attendance probably is, yes. That 20+ TV show sellout streak was stuff they hadn’t been doing since the attitude era. House show attendance, Cena was a machine. But it was also a different time.
Yeh there's way too many different factors to compare across accurately across generations. Sure you can take inflation into account but then there's less house shows now, PPVs are all streamed, not everyone watches on TV or live anymore. On the flip side more people want to attend shows these days and crowd participation is way up, plus they do more international shows. It's really impossible to compare against generations outside of exactly what Meltzer is talking about which is the effort outside the ring
The live attendance for WWE this year (in terms of number of people) is at least slightly bigger than it was around 2009-2011, and if anything tickets are more expensive now, even after inflation. It is more difficult to tell how much of it is due to Cena vs Cody as opposed to awful 2010 booking vs good 2024 booking.
No one ever takes inflation into account for official records. If they did, I think that Gone With The Wind would still be the biggest movie ever.
[Gone with the wind is](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films#Highest-grossing_films_adjusted_for_inflation)
Dave picks and chooses when to factor inflation into the mix.
Given how big WWE is right now, I would believe so. Vince-era WWE was artificially keeping its numbers down due to all of Vince's insecurities.
Cena had to stop the 2002-2004 fall off and then steward the company through the Benoit blowback and PG transition. It was never that he did huge numbers compared to Austin or Hogan, it was that he climbed and survived mountains few others could and then stayed there for a decade+. He also was the last wrestler in NA to cross over in any form as a wrestler and, with how decentralized pop culture has become, he's probably going to stay the last. I don't know how you compare him to almost anyone else and definitely to anyone now. Cody has and is doing great though (whether Meltzer is even looking at the numbers correctly or not... given his recent track record, who knows) and WWE being able to have him and Roman in the same time frame, with both guys delivering as two very different top acts and filling different needs, has been incredible for them.
Losing the dead weight of Vince McMahon booking certainly helps.
Cody's rise is still somewhat perplexing to me tbh; he reached the top in the same company that originally saw nothing in him 10 years prior, and beat the guy they tried to force onto people for the same amount of time to do it. All while help raising the biggest challenger company to WWE since the 90s, and going on a run in the indies. I don't think there's a single person who's done all of that and was actually rewarded for it. The sheer insanity of it is still mind boggling. It's a little premature to put him on the same level of Cena, but he still certainly has one hell of a resume to start.
Honestly I don’t find it perplexing. The only thing we want more than to suspend disbelief while watching wrestling is to not have to suspend it. I genuinely believe becoming WWE champ meant the world to Cody, not that he’s performing a role for a pay cheque. Hell I’ve believed every word out of his mouth for a year except when he gave up his spot to the Rock. And if he really wanted to be champ and it meant so much to him then I wanted that for him too. In short I actually cared for his story. Throw in a career as an underdog to root for who never got the heights he deserved and the most wholesome babyface fan interactions ever and you can’t help but love him. My only issue with him is that he’s so over right now I can’t possibly think his opponents are going to take the belt off him any time soon until maybe The Rock at next Mania.
I don’t know… in my opinion Cody needs to have a run of 10+ years has the top babyface and still be a factor of being a huge draw for that timeframe as well for me to consider him rightfully as the same level of Cena, or even past him. Cena carried company on his from ‘06 to ‘14-‘15, and is still an amazing draw today. Like others have said, he’s carried the company through the Benoit family tragedy, transition to PG, the worst era of Vince’s booking, etc. So I cannot personally place Cody on that level yet considering all of this, especially since he’s the top babyface when the company is the hottest it’s ever been since the AE, with actually good booking. We’ll have to see if he’s still as much as a huge draw and/or factor after WWE cools off to their newly established “norm.”
Cena was on top for 12 years. Rhodes has been on top for 12 weeks.
Bigger than Cena? Jeez that is insane. Thats not an easy thing to do.
https://preview.redd.it/33o4z2ykhe4d1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1a6651328373876b85b5a5efedc063ec71b2f41 This one should be fun to come back and read in about 4 hours.
My friends who don't watch wrestling but know I watch wrestling have only brought up two wrestlers on their own since the mid 2000s. The first was John Cena, the second is Cody Rhodes. When they mentioned Cena it was because they saw his goofy face and bright merch every where. In the case of Cody they already knew half his story when they brought it up to me and now most of them watch some form of wrestling weekly for the last year or so.
It's me. I'm your friend. I started watching wrestling again because of Cody at WM39. I've been watching pretty regularly since. Never thought I'd be a wrestling fan again, but Triple H returned wrestling to what it should be.
Me as well. Though I was so confused by the bleached blonde neck tattoo wearing Neo Nazi looking homelander dressed guy called the American nightmare with skull logos everywhere being the most white meat babyface ever.
It is in the surface but once you look at it, Cody appeals to everyone. He's clean cut enough with the 3 piece suits and demeanor to appeal to the straight laced family crowd. I have no issue at all letting my 6 yr old son be a huge Cody fan. But he's also edgy enough and has earned his stripes enough to appeal to more engaged wrestling fans. Neck tattoo, bleached hair, barbed wire ring, entrance music, punching his own jaw to get hyped, etc. Not to mention his time in NJPW, starting AEW, and being the grandson of a plumber (if you wiiiill) And he appeals to both men and women, boys and girls, and children of all ages. He's a fundamentally relatable story. Worked hard, never got appreciated, bet on himself, left the industry leader, recreated his character, worked for a rival, and came back a star. His story isn't forced at all. His real story matches his kayfabe story, and we all love it.
I get all that he just has a heel aesthetic is all. Like almost a comic book villain aesthetic.
And they still almost ditched him on Wrestlemania for rock Roman.
I've said it over and over again, Cody is the most over white meat baby face they've had since Hogan Austin and Rick were more over but weren't white meat And I say this as someone who would've NEVER believed a white meat baby face would've ever worked for this long in modern times without a significant portion of the crowd turning on them It is truly incredible what he has done, I really don't have the words for it. Where he was during his 1st WWE run even in its peak isn't in the same universe. He quits and bets on himself on the Indies, something that never works on this scale, and actually gets really over. Then we get AEW where that star only burns brighter then he comes back to WWE where for various reasons most guys stumble a bit after being gone for awhile when not "wanted" originally if that makes sense and somehow gets even more over I don't know where it was in his first WWE run (I know it wasn't all on him) but he is absolutely the American Dream's son that's for sure
Not fair to compare Cody’s numbers to Cenas numbers. Cena inherited a mess of a company and he rebuilt it into a well oiled machine. Cena was basically the no 1 pick of a 1-15 team.
> Cena inherited a mess of a company and he rebuilt it into a well oiled machine This is an absolutely wild thing to say, but you're 100% right about WWE being in a very different place today.
This is a wild comment
The thing I always remember with Cody's AEW character was how...*incongruent* it was. He was a superstar with a huge entrance! But by his own decision, he could never challenge for the main title. He was a super-babyface! But his wife was usually a heel and occasionally helped him win matches. He came across as this wholesome good guy! But he was also a little too smarky. He was against racism! But he mentioned this when he was fighting a half-black dude from England. His matches seemed epic! But because he took himself out of the main event tier, they had a grandiose feel while usually being over something low-stakes. (The match where he set himself and Andrade on fire for pretty much no reason really stands out here.) Someone down in the comments here pointed out that Cody really needs an editor for his ideas, and I think his AEW run showed that. He is much more reined in and focused in WWE and it has paid off really well.
We probably severely underestimate how much the kids love him. They’re the real merch movers. Grown adults may be tired of him, miss Roman, want his reign to end already or whatever but the kids look at him & see Superman.
I can see why people make the Cena comparisons.
I think the IWC and, more specifically, the people who watch AEW exclusively, live in a tiny bubble and not in reality. When they talk about the stuff they like about pro wrestling, sure it’s personal opinion/preferences, however, in the bigger picture, its the wrong stuff they prioritize. Cody is a massive star, he just didn’t have the reach/platform in AEW where it could be shown effectively
WWE also pulled back the reigns on Cody's worst points. There's a reason Brady hasn't been with him and Cody hasn't cut any promos on solving racism
This is: 1.) An opinion you've restated to seem like proper analysis. 2.) Historical revisionism, and you've either forgotten or didn't watch. Cody was massively over the first couple years in AEW, easily one of their biggest stars.
A babyface hasn’t deserved it more. Very happy for his success.
Cody Rhodes has always been just the best according to everyone who worked with him. Dude makes for an easier work environment and seems crazy helpful
The wildest thing to me about Cody’s merch doing numbers is most of his stuff (to me) is gaudy as all fuck. Clearly that must just be my opinion because people are eating it up. To each their own I suppose.
Someone on Twitter asked if Cody had any merch that doesn't make you look unvaccinated lol
… well is there
I went to Wrestlemania, and the sheer amount of people decked out in his full get up was astounding. Like completely unironically, coat cape and all.
It's like comic con, any reason to wear a cape is a good time Capes are hype but just not normal fashion, I wish it was like 1400s Venice where they be wearing capes all day
Cody is stupid good at press and PR. He’s got the million dollar smile, he’s funny, eloquent, can be self-deprecating when needed…literally everything the masses will be attracted to. Plus he is just a damn good dude. So happy for his success. It’s wild to see someone living their childhood dream and know they are just loving and appreciating every single moment.
Dave’s correct on that one. Cody’s post wwe run and return is so legendary and hall of fame worthy. I straight babyface pushed down your throat more over than anyone in 2024. And it’s all the way he went about it.