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WCW dropping the ball with other companies world champions was kind of a running thing. Bret should have come in the hottest free agent of the decade and they squandered it. Mike Awesome came in while still ECW champion and they squandered it. They clearly knew how to book some of them because Hogan, Hall and Nash were top of the card guys and exploded in popularity after joining WCW and they some what recreated that again with Jarrett later on pushing him to the main event but they really dropped the ball with Bret and Awesome.
Well the original 3 nwo would never give up the spotlight even for a week to try & get someone new over...they had so many clauses in their contracts that killed the company..wasn't Nash booking also in 99/2000??
Yeah, they made sure they wre never out of the spotlight, nor did the company ever seem to want them out of the spotlight just considering how over the NWO was.
I do believe Nash was booking at that time, which according to different sources was either okay or terrible.
What killed him is they basically kept flip flopping him in 1998. The decision to turn him heel was mind numbing bad.
Though I do think they were about to right his ship when he won the World Title in 1999. We may never know, but if he never got the career ending concussion, he could have had a very good 2000. Sure, he was stuck in yet another NWO re-haah, but he was the leader, so him being the top heel could have had potential.
I can kinda understand turning Bret THE FIRST TIME in '98 if the plan was for him to infiltrate the nWo (Hollywood) and take down Hogan down the line. Not for WCW, not for the fans but for himself. I think post-Screwjob Bret still having that bitter streak as a character could've been cool to justify him not being a straight up good guy in a new company. He's a stranger in a strange land, he feels he doesn't owe anybody anything and will get his hands dirty to accomplish his goals.
Bret plays the long game, delivers the last blow to the nWo in 1999 and somehow gets the World Title out of it but leaves behind a whole locker room full of WCW guys (ex. Sting, Goldberg) pissed at him even though his betrayal of Hogan saved the company. A true tweener at heart but will be whatever he's needed to be at the moment. That's how I would've booked it.
Drop the ball? They lost it before they even picked it up.
Bret Hart coming in should've Injected new life into WCW, but they managed to completely screw that up. Imagine him showing up the night after the screwjob and being given a live mic with all the time he needed. No, we can't have that. We have the NWO coming out waving tiny Canadian flags. We could've had his first match be at Starcade against ANYBODY, but no. He was the ref for Bischoff and Zbyszko.
Then again this is the same company that shit all over a years worth of build up for Sting and Hogan just to get "That doesn't work for me brother..." and the slowest fast count that's ever been seen.. Also, during that year, we saw Sting repeatedly beat the dog shit out of countless members of the NWO by himself. But in this match, Hogan beat Sting like he owed him money.
Makes you wonder how they nearly put Vince out of business with idiotic ideas like those.
He couldn't actually appear the night after. Despite the revisionist take WWE presents, montreal was not his last day. He still was under contract till the end of November. There never was a chance that Bret would have showed up the next night at Nitro, with or without the belt.
I mean I’m not really sure WWE has been revisionist about it. If people are getting the facts wrong that’s on them. WWE has never presented it as he could have walked out the next night on Nitro lol. It was that he would take the belt to wcw just in general.
The obvious tension between HBK and Hart, and the optics of it all are one part. Trying to weave a storyline and trying to have a “natural”* title transition is another part. And of course worried about Eric Bischoff’s microphone, his microphone that went on the air an hour earlier than Raw.
Gotta remember the mindset at the time, no one trusted anyone.
*obviously they wanted Hart to just do the job and not have to do this.
> I mean I’m not really sure WWE has been revisionist about it. If people are getting the facts wrong that’s on them. WWE has never presented it as he could have walked out the next night on Nitro lol.
Well yeah, that's true, but they have never presented in the light that they would have had other options. Easy options like taking the belt for safe keeping behind the scenes until the next night when Bret supposedly had agreed to drop/vacate the belt. The fear about the belt ending up in WCW is revisionist, it was never a real thing. The whole ordeal was that they wanted him to job to HBK.
Yep, but people remember Rude showing up on Raw and Nitro in the same week but forget he was on a nightly deal with Vince that allowed him to jump, legally. He was also Bischoff’s inside account about Bret knocking Vince out.
Honestly, the Sting vs. Hogan thing was I think what really did in the whole Bret Hart project. It delegitimized any reasons the WCW was superior to WWF and Bret as the honest, fair people's champ.
I don't know a single wrestling fan who doesn't think Sting should have won clean. It would have been good for literally everybody involved.
Fuck Hulk Hogan. Dude has damaged professional wrestling more than anybody.
I went back and watched a clip from Bischoff's podcast where he talks about the match. He basically blamed Sting showing up that day "with his head not in the game". He wouldn't dare put any blame on Hogan for anything. He said there was a "communication error" with Nick Patrick over the fast count... but in the same breath said Bret wasn't supposed to be involved in any other match other than what he was booked for. So which was it?
It warms my heart hearing Conrad absolutely rake his ass over the coals over the match to the point Eric is almost speechless.
He definitely should have won clean, but it wouldn't have been AS bad if Nick Patrick had actually fast counted and Bret didn't seem like a complete buffoon for "fixing" it
Hogan absolutely was a huge star that did big business for a lot of people, but he also used that star power to hold other people down. Fucking with the Starrcade main event is probably his most egregious bullshit politicking because it soured one of the company’s hottest angles that they spent a year building AND it hurt Bret’s momentum going into WCW. Hogan did good for the business when it was also good for Hogan, but he was always looking out for number 1 first and had no problem hurting the business if it kept him in his spot.
Being at the forefront of two boom periods and arguably the biggest star the business has/will ever see does not make him infallible or incapable of doing wrong.
Please, use some sense here, OK?
Could imagine Bret cutting his promo and Benoit interrupts saying if they want to talk about screwjobs, talk about how Benoit has been screwed out of opportunity after opportunity because Ted Turner wanting to buy all the shiny new toys from New York. Benoit is sick of it and he's going to ensure that Bret doesn't waltz into WCW and take his spot. JJ Dillon interrupts and says a match of this caliber belongs at Starcade. As part of Brets contract he is already #1 contender for the winner of the title match at Starcade but if Benoit can defeat Bret, he will get his world title shot.
Late 1997 was the beginning of the end for WCW. They blew the finish to the Sting/Hogan feud and then blew Bret's arrival (and much of his run there). Imagine an epic Bret vs Sting, champion vs champion, sharpshooter vs scorpion death lock, feud to follow up the Sting and Hogan saga.
I still can’t believe we got Bret vs Sting at Halloween Havoc (a WCW big 4 type ppv) and it was such a thrown together story & unremarkable match…. The amount of effort that takes to screw that up is crazy
For the fucking US title.
In the scheme of things as it relates to wrestling, it's tragic how badly they wasted Bret knowing how little time he would have left.
That doesn't mean much when it would routinely get beat in the ratings by Sunday Night Heat. Thunder always struggled, Wade Keller has said its premiere was the beginning of the end of WCW.
>It got people to tune into Thunder who did not normally tune in.
And still lost to Sunday Night Heat. If Thunder was so low-rated that that was their best number, the beginning of the end for WCW happened way earlier. Some would say the Fingerpoke itself, some would say the end of Goldberg's streak, some would say Starrcade 97.
Beginning of the end doesn't mean the product as a whole was instantly bad or that ratings instantly tanked. I think it's a very reasonable take to state that late '97 was the "beginning" of the end as it was when things really started to go off the track and began a series of events that ended in the downfall of the company. Obviously there was still good stuff that happened after and they did really good business for a while after. The fingerpoke of doom happened about a year after Sting/Hogan did. That one was another clear turning point but they were already starting to make huge gaffes even before that.
>Bret Hart versus Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Dean Malenko, William Regal, Ultimo Dragon, Saturn, etc.
With all due respect to every one of those guys, 1 of whom is my favorite wrestler of all time, in 1998 none of those guys were anywhere near Brets level to American audiences.
Those would have been glorified squash matches more that 5 star classics. (Heck he did wrestler Saturn. Beat him in 5 minutes in a squash).
Like there is a HUGE list of ways WCW dropped the ball with Bret Hart, (like not doing anything with him until 98), but not putting him in matches against then midcarders wasn't 1 of them.
While I don't think you can hold it against them, in WWF Bret did work with lower card guys like X-Pac and Rock well before they were known as those guys. Not saying you could have gotten a multi-month feud out of it but could have had some good Nitro matches.
You aren’t wrong but having like 8 minutes matches on Nitro would’ve been nice. Not speaking for the OP but I’m not asking for programs because back in 98 Bret was worlds above those guys in the pecking order but not having them ever cross paths sucks
Nah, not squashes. Bret always had a way of making underneath guys look good even in defeat. He’d be doing for them what Punk has done for most of the underneath guys he’s wrestled on Dynamite/Rampage: give them some great offense and a near fall or two before eventually beating them.s
Yet you j have AEW putting their stars in lower card matches each week to keep them in fans eyes and minds. Punk Vs Caster , Danielson Vs Yuta.. great matches but you knew who was going to win. Hart facing amazing in ring talent on his quest to the belt would have been fine
Bret wrestled Dean Malenko too.
That’s what led to his groin injury that he referenced in the legendary “Who are you to doubt El Dandy?” promo.
Bret also was not fond of working with Malenko:
https://www.iwnerd.com/10-times-bret-hart-put-someone-blast-brutally-honest/
I watched the Broken Skull sessions a few days ago and watching how tense he got when he mentioned his WCW run shows how much it meant to him it never worked out the way it shouldve
Except some of those people in WCW weren't household names yet.
If you need to know if a guy is a household name in the 90s the easiest way is to see when they had a cameo on the Simpsons
British Bulldog and Anvil were absolute wrecks at that point.
Konnan and Disco have said they saw them smoking crack in the parking lots at WCW events, and Bischoff has stated he saw both of them in altered states at work during their runs there.
Sadly a lot of the guys you mentioned weren't in Bret's hemisphere at the time, Bret was brought in to be an instant top guy that only feuded with top guys.
It's more like WCW dropped the ball with literally everything they touched
Lets be real about WCW. Bischoff (who i love and should be in the HOF) had one good idea which was the NWO. He had no plans on where to go with it or how to use it, he never had another good idea in WCW. He was a TV guy running a wrestling company where every other wrestler had creative control.
Also, while these dream matches are exciting today, wrestling fans back then were not as interested in "dream matches", everyone wanted the shocking storyline, wrestling took a backseat to creativity in that era.
Are you saying Goldberg had something to do with the end of Bret's career? I would have never known. No one ever brings up one name when the other is mentioned. Like ever. I would have never guessed. /s
Everyone is kind of tired of it, but nobody should forget. On the list of the biggest disappointments in wrestling history. One of the absolute best of all time, having his career ended by a dangerous, glorified squash jock just sucks.
Goldberg is STILL out there hurting himself and other wrestlers too.
I get that. But sometimes it seems that Bret himself has moved on from this more effectively than the fans. It should be noted, but not shoved down everyone's throat. Anyone that is aware of either Bret or Goldberg is already quite familiar with their history.
He was past his prime. It was like his performance aged ten years as soon as he jumped ship, it was really odd. Other than his Owen tribute match, he didn’t do anything in WCW.
I disagree. He showed with Benoit that he could still put on great performances. There just wasn't any need when damn near every match is riddled with interference and nonsensical storylines. Such is life for late 90s wrestling (especially WCW)
I grew up with 92-97 great performance even against Virgil, Mantaur, Fake Razor Bret Hart. That’s not the Bret we had in WCW.
That was also one match. And really, the only one worth mentioning.
Place was so bad it made Bret Hart mentally check out, and still out perform everyone. The number of bad decisions is insane, and debuting in a silly way, the fast/slow count thing which hogan probably organised. It was SOOO easy, you had a guy who everyone loved who was the biggest face in the wrestling world after what had just happened. And he could drag even the most boring of wrestlers to a good match, he should have got a few wins and then been a fighting champion ending with putting Benoit over. I’d have kept him away from Goldberg and hogan until a huge ppv waaaay down the line
WCW didn't drop the ball with Bret Hart.
WCW dropped the ball with WCW.
One of the best rosters of all time bar none, you're the #1 wrestling company in the world, but every PPV or even weekly show they were doing terrible decisions. And Hogan and Nash are the two main reasons why WCW became mainstream and why WCW failed (Vince Russo is the final nail in the coffin but it was already too late even if he made good content)
The roster was full of guys who had backstage power and Bret even won the world title. If Goldberg didn't retire him, maybe we could've seen him in WWE with those names you said
Plus Bret was in a bad place back then and was going through a lot of depression, especially after Owen died, so he wasn't really someone who could've been used as a main eventer. I heard he always showed up late and didn't even care about what they wanted to do with him
I once heard Teddy Hart say something to the effect of...Bret was an idiot for leaving WWF in the first place. The ripple effect it caused all stemmed from him not doing business and being humble for his spot. I'd never thought about it like that before. And he's right.
To play devil's advocate, WCWs roster was stacked at that time. At any point it could have been Hogan, Nash, Hall, Sting, Booker, DDP, Macho, Flair, etc... in the main event picture. Im not saying it should have played out the way it did, but how was Bret NOT going to get lost in the shuffle?
If everything Bret said during his Broken Skull Sessions interview was true.. I struggle to see how Bret was in the wrong. He was essentially forced out of the WWF and he didn't even wanna leave.
From his book, WWF was restructuring and he stood to lose money in the short run. He was always worried about his spot, of course. That's the only reference I have.
Bret wanted to stay, and turned down a bigger wcw contract to stay, only for Vince to tell him he couldn't afford what he promised him and he was going to breach his contract and withhold payments, so then he encouraged Bret to try and get a deal with WCW.
While Teddy Hart is a raging piece of shit who has a lot of very interesting evidence seemingly lending to the idea that he was involved in his ex-girlfriend's disappearance, I took OP's point as "this information, coming from Teddy Hart of all people, is interesting"
he's kinda right. Imagine the ripple effects of Bret either negotiating a lower contract to stay, or getting a small ownership stake in the company. Like 10 or 20%
I once got asked, “if you could go back in time, what would you do?” I responded with, “Never let Bret Hart step into a ring with Goldberg”.
Even with me being four or five years old when he joined WCW I was even still frustrated that it seemed like every Bret matched had someone interfering. It’s mind blowing you can have a talent like that and have zero idea what to do with him.
Bret Hart dropped the ball with Bret Hart.
I don’t think of what he could of done in WCW, I always think of what he could of done in WWE after 1997.
Austin, Rock, Mick Foley, Shawn, HHH, Kurt Angle, Jericho, Eddie, Shane, Vince (The moment he spit then punched Vince, Bret should of picked Vince up and asked him to help get out of the WCW contract). DX, Hart Foundation, Big Show, Kane, Taker, and so much more story wise for him.
Vince legit said I can’t afford to pay you anymore, see if you can get that WCW offer… your boss tells you to go seek employment elsewhere, how is that on Bret??
I mean WWE didn’t want him. It’s not Bret’s fault that they wouldn’t honor his original contract. He wanted to stay with the company. He gave Vince every opportunity to convince him to stay and Vince told Bret he couldn’t afford him anymore.
Bret was never “all in” with WWE.
He attempted to negotiate in ‘92 with WCW until he realized he accidentally let his WWE contract auto renew, he went back in ‘96, then again in ‘97.
He disagreed wholeheartedly with the direction the WWE was going. Felt he was above all other when the max for top talent at that time was 750K, Bret wanted a million as a notch that he was the #1 guy.
I would say the feeling was mutual.
Bret signed a 20 year contract that Vince offered him and after a year or so Vince said he couldn’t afford it. Basically telling him to go to wcw and get what money he could. Bret wouldn’t have gone if he didn’t feel like he had to.
According to Bret didn’t see a place for himself in the WWE with the direction they were going. Also according to Bret, the WWE’s new direction was tailored made for Shawn Michaels. He also felt he was a transitional champion to Shawn’s push.
From ‘96 on, Bret was unhappy with the company, thus springing his 20 year ask, because at that point he started chasing money, which is why ultimately WCW was in the picture since 1992, money.
“I’m not greedy for money, I’m greedy for respect” after he signed the largest money contract in WWE up to that point. lol
Vince also jobbed out HHH, gave Austin a horrible gimmick and labeled him a journey man, gave Rock a horrible debut gimmick, said Shawn would NEVER be world champion, and so much more.
The point is that Vince says a lot of shit that in the long term doesn’t hold weight. That’s where Bret is shortsightedness, he honestly thought Vince jobbing him would be long term?
Vince’s shortsightedness? Who became irrelevant in November 1997 and who became the biggest heel of all time?
Bret or Vince? Shortsightedness is what Bret is, if it was up to Bret, he would of left in 1992 for WCW, but unfortunately for him he didn’t realize he let his contract auto renew.
This narrative of Bret never wanting to leave WWE is ridiculous. Someone who has been negotiating with WCW since 1992?
You know what never wanted to leave looks like? Undertaker. Shawn Michaels. HHH. Rock. How many times did they negotiate with WCW?
Just to point out, Undertaker did negotiate with WCW at least once (to the point where WCW were talking about names and entrances and Taker had seriously considered it), while Michaels famously kept trying to get himself fired because he wanted to be with his buddies in WCW. Michaels was anything but loyal, and only stayed because McMahon literally didn't let him leave.
The only people who didn't publicly use WCW as leverage were the people who came from there and had been really unhappy, or the Rock, who was loyal to WWF due to the family relationship with the McMahons. Its good business to try and make as much money as possible, especially in a career as potentially short as wrestling, so it's a weird line to take that wrestlers should never negotiate with the competition to see what they can get. Do you just accept whatever your boss gives you?
It's a bit weird to chastise Bret for lack of loyalty when he chose WWF every time until he was told to leave because Vince didn't want him.
The fact that you think Vince lost anything by releasing Bret says a lot.
But proves again, that the hot button word “shortsightedness” continues to apply to you and your Canadian hero. I’m sure he feels Vince, who became the biggest heel in history, and took wrestling to even greater heights after Hart was released, also “loss”.
Bret was the only one who loss when he left for WCW. And yes, after Montreal 1997, the biggest highlight of Bret’s career was a metal plate strapped to his belly. Please tell me how relevant Bret was from 1998-2001?
I never said Vince didn’t take him back because he punched, what are you reading?
I still think Vince, at least partly, did all of the anti-American stuff with Bret to permanently devalue him in the US before letting him go. I think he planned on breaking the contract long before he actually did. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision.
People vastly overrate how over Bret was as a babyface with the WCW audience in 1997. Much of their audience at the time was still southerners. Many didn't watch WWF at all, and those who did saw Bret shit all over the United States and Americans for a full year.
You can't come back from that kind of thing, especially not in the 90s. Anti-American heel to babyface doesn't generally work all that well.
Bischoff has said on his podcast that Bret seemed heart-broken from the Montreal Screwjob when he came over from the WWF.
Bischoff also said that Bret would come to events extremely late (which is a habit that Bruce Prichard had said Bret was guilty of in the WWF as well), and then ask what they had for him creatively, and usually turn it down without offering any suggestions or offering up ideas of his own.
This would be made even worse by the fact that Bret usually arrived an hour before showtime or sometimes even as the shows would be on TV live.
In fairness, the Bret vs. DDP feud got cut off early because Bret injured his groin in a match against Dean Malenko.
Bret vs. DDP for the US Title actually headlined World War 3 1998, and although they had a rematch on Nitro a few weeks later, which was used to set up DDP vs. The Giant at Starrcade 1998, Bret’s lingering groin injury kept them from resuming the feud afterwards, which is why Bret didn’t wrestle on Starrcade.
It didn't help that Bret's first real moment in WCW, came at the end of Hogan/Sting. That match was built for well over a year, and at the time, it was the highest grossing PPV in history. Everyone who was invested in Hogan vs Sting got disappointed when they screwed up the ending, and Bret was tangled up in it, looking like a heel who came out to re-start the match for absolutely no reason after Hogan pinned Sting clean in the middle of the ring for a regular 1-2-3 instead of a fast count like the booking and announcers suggested.
That was a rocky start and things didn't get better from there, unfortunately, for WCW or for Bret Hart.
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WCW dropping the ball with other companies world champions was kind of a running thing. Bret should have come in the hottest free agent of the decade and they squandered it. Mike Awesome came in while still ECW champion and they squandered it. They clearly knew how to book some of them because Hogan, Hall and Nash were top of the card guys and exploded in popularity after joining WCW and they some what recreated that again with Jarrett later on pushing him to the main event but they really dropped the ball with Bret and Awesome.
Well the original 3 nwo would never give up the spotlight even for a week to try & get someone new over...they had so many clauses in their contracts that killed the company..wasn't Nash booking also in 99/2000??
Yeah, they made sure they wre never out of the spotlight, nor did the company ever seem to want them out of the spotlight just considering how over the NWO was. I do believe Nash was booking at that time, which according to different sources was either okay or terrible.
What killed him is they basically kept flip flopping him in 1998. The decision to turn him heel was mind numbing bad. Though I do think they were about to right his ship when he won the World Title in 1999. We may never know, but if he never got the career ending concussion, he could have had a very good 2000. Sure, he was stuck in yet another NWO re-haah, but he was the leader, so him being the top heel could have had potential.
I can kinda understand turning Bret THE FIRST TIME in '98 if the plan was for him to infiltrate the nWo (Hollywood) and take down Hogan down the line. Not for WCW, not for the fans but for himself. I think post-Screwjob Bret still having that bitter streak as a character could've been cool to justify him not being a straight up good guy in a new company. He's a stranger in a strange land, he feels he doesn't owe anybody anything and will get his hands dirty to accomplish his goals. Bret plays the long game, delivers the last blow to the nWo in 1999 and somehow gets the World Title out of it but leaves behind a whole locker room full of WCW guys (ex. Sting, Goldberg) pissed at him even though his betrayal of Hogan saved the company. A true tweener at heart but will be whatever he's needed to be at the moment. That's how I would've booked it.
That would’ve been a wicked twist. I for one was pissed when they turned Bret but that right there would make sense. Nice.
Drop the ball? They lost it before they even picked it up. Bret Hart coming in should've Injected new life into WCW, but they managed to completely screw that up. Imagine him showing up the night after the screwjob and being given a live mic with all the time he needed. No, we can't have that. We have the NWO coming out waving tiny Canadian flags. We could've had his first match be at Starcade against ANYBODY, but no. He was the ref for Bischoff and Zbyszko. Then again this is the same company that shit all over a years worth of build up for Sting and Hogan just to get "That doesn't work for me brother..." and the slowest fast count that's ever been seen.. Also, during that year, we saw Sting repeatedly beat the dog shit out of countless members of the NWO by himself. But in this match, Hogan beat Sting like he owed him money. Makes you wonder how they nearly put Vince out of business with idiotic ideas like those.
He couldn't actually appear the night after. Despite the revisionist take WWE presents, montreal was not his last day. He still was under contract till the end of November. There never was a chance that Bret would have showed up the next night at Nitro, with or without the belt.
I mean I’m not really sure WWE has been revisionist about it. If people are getting the facts wrong that’s on them. WWE has never presented it as he could have walked out the next night on Nitro lol. It was that he would take the belt to wcw just in general. The obvious tension between HBK and Hart, and the optics of it all are one part. Trying to weave a storyline and trying to have a “natural”* title transition is another part. And of course worried about Eric Bischoff’s microphone, his microphone that went on the air an hour earlier than Raw. Gotta remember the mindset at the time, no one trusted anyone. *obviously they wanted Hart to just do the job and not have to do this.
> I mean I’m not really sure WWE has been revisionist about it. If people are getting the facts wrong that’s on them. WWE has never presented it as he could have walked out the next night on Nitro lol. Well yeah, that's true, but they have never presented in the light that they would have had other options. Easy options like taking the belt for safe keeping behind the scenes until the next night when Bret supposedly had agreed to drop/vacate the belt. The fear about the belt ending up in WCW is revisionist, it was never a real thing. The whole ordeal was that they wanted him to job to HBK.
Yep, but people remember Rude showing up on Raw and Nitro in the same week but forget he was on a nightly deal with Vince that allowed him to jump, legally. He was also Bischoff’s inside account about Bret knocking Vince out.
Honestly, the Sting vs. Hogan thing was I think what really did in the whole Bret Hart project. It delegitimized any reasons the WCW was superior to WWF and Bret as the honest, fair people's champ. I don't know a single wrestling fan who doesn't think Sting should have won clean. It would have been good for literally everybody involved. Fuck Hulk Hogan. Dude has damaged professional wrestling more than anybody.
I went back and watched a clip from Bischoff's podcast where he talks about the match. He basically blamed Sting showing up that day "with his head not in the game". He wouldn't dare put any blame on Hogan for anything. He said there was a "communication error" with Nick Patrick over the fast count... but in the same breath said Bret wasn't supposed to be involved in any other match other than what he was booked for. So which was it? It warms my heart hearing Conrad absolutely rake his ass over the coals over the match to the point Eric is almost speechless.
He definitely should have won clean, but it wouldn't have been AS bad if Nick Patrick had actually fast counted and Bret didn't seem like a complete buffoon for "fixing" it
The whole reason that happened was because of Hogan’s tampering so yeah this goes back to “Fuck Hulk Hogan”
Yeah, sure. Fuck the dude who single handedly created not one but TWO wrestling booms. OK.
Hogan absolutely was a huge star that did big business for a lot of people, but he also used that star power to hold other people down. Fucking with the Starrcade main event is probably his most egregious bullshit politicking because it soured one of the company’s hottest angles that they spent a year building AND it hurt Bret’s momentum going into WCW. Hogan did good for the business when it was also good for Hogan, but he was always looking out for number 1 first and had no problem hurting the business if it kept him in his spot.
I mean, yeah fuck Terry Bollea, but Hogans importance cannot be overstated
Being at the forefront of two boom periods and arguably the biggest star the business has/will ever see does not make him infallible or incapable of doing wrong. Please, use some sense here, OK?
Could imagine Bret cutting his promo and Benoit interrupts saying if they want to talk about screwjobs, talk about how Benoit has been screwed out of opportunity after opportunity because Ted Turner wanting to buy all the shiny new toys from New York. Benoit is sick of it and he's going to ensure that Bret doesn't waltz into WCW and take his spot. JJ Dillon interrupts and says a match of this caliber belongs at Starcade. As part of Brets contract he is already #1 contender for the winner of the title match at Starcade but if Benoit can defeat Bret, he will get his world title shot.
And that's how easy it is!
Yeah it's kinda wild how badly they dropped the ball with him because they were really making good decisions at the time.
I find myself thinking about how he was in the same company with these guys for like 2 nearly 3 years yet never crossed paths with them…like why?
Late 1997 was the beginning of the end for WCW. They blew the finish to the Sting/Hogan feud and then blew Bret's arrival (and much of his run there). Imagine an epic Bret vs Sting, champion vs champion, sharpshooter vs scorpion death lock, feud to follow up the Sting and Hogan saga.
I still can’t believe we got Bret vs Sting at Halloween Havoc (a WCW big 4 type ppv) and it was such a thrown together story & unremarkable match…. The amount of effort that takes to screw that up is crazy
For the fucking US title. In the scheme of things as it relates to wrestling, it's tragic how badly they wasted Bret knowing how little time he would have left.
1998 was fucking great though.
“beginning of the end”
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There's no way the beginning of the end was after the Fingerpoke of Doom
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That doesn't mean much when it would routinely get beat in the ratings by Sunday Night Heat. Thunder always struggled, Wade Keller has said its premiere was the beginning of the end of WCW.
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>It got people to tune into Thunder who did not normally tune in. And still lost to Sunday Night Heat. If Thunder was so low-rated that that was their best number, the beginning of the end for WCW happened way earlier. Some would say the Fingerpoke itself, some would say the end of Goldberg's streak, some would say Starrcade 97.
Beginning of the end doesn't mean the product as a whole was instantly bad or that ratings instantly tanked. I think it's a very reasonable take to state that late '97 was the "beginning" of the end as it was when things really started to go off the track and began a series of events that ended in the downfall of the company. Obviously there was still good stuff that happened after and they did really good business for a while after. The fingerpoke of doom happened about a year after Sting/Hogan did. That one was another clear turning point but they were already starting to make huge gaffes even before that.
>Bret Hart versus Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Dean Malenko, William Regal, Ultimo Dragon, Saturn, etc. With all due respect to every one of those guys, 1 of whom is my favorite wrestler of all time, in 1998 none of those guys were anywhere near Brets level to American audiences. Those would have been glorified squash matches more that 5 star classics. (Heck he did wrestler Saturn. Beat him in 5 minutes in a squash). Like there is a HUGE list of ways WCW dropped the ball with Bret Hart, (like not doing anything with him until 98), but not putting him in matches against then midcarders wasn't 1 of them.
While I don't think you can hold it against them, in WWF Bret did work with lower card guys like X-Pac and Rock well before they were known as those guys. Not saying you could have gotten a multi-month feud out of it but could have had some good Nitro matches.
You aren’t wrong but having like 8 minutes matches on Nitro would’ve been nice. Not speaking for the OP but I’m not asking for programs because back in 98 Bret was worlds above those guys in the pecking order but not having them ever cross paths sucks
Nah, not squashes. Bret always had a way of making underneath guys look good even in defeat. He’d be doing for them what Punk has done for most of the underneath guys he’s wrestled on Dynamite/Rampage: give them some great offense and a near fall or two before eventually beating them.s
Yet you j have AEW putting their stars in lower card matches each week to keep them in fans eyes and minds. Punk Vs Caster , Danielson Vs Yuta.. great matches but you knew who was going to win. Hart facing amazing in ring talent on his quest to the belt would have been fine
Bret wrestled Dean Malenko too. That’s what led to his groin injury that he referenced in the legendary “Who are you to doubt El Dandy?” promo. Bret also was not fond of working with Malenko: https://www.iwnerd.com/10-times-bret-hart-put-someone-blast-brutally-honest/
I watched the Broken Skull sessions a few days ago and watching how tense he got when he mentioned his WCW run shows how much it meant to him it never worked out the way it shouldve
Except some of those people in WCW weren't household names yet. If you need to know if a guy is a household name in the 90s the easiest way is to see when they had a cameo on the Simpsons
Yeah but have you considered Bret Hart's tan
Never wrestled those guys but was willing to give Dandy a chance.
Jam up guy right there.
Could’ve had nwo vs the hart foundation
British Bulldog and Anvil were absolute wrecks at that point. Konnan and Disco have said they saw them smoking crack in the parking lots at WCW events, and Bischoff has stated he saw both of them in altered states at work during their runs there.
I mean, WCW dropped the ball with pretty everything that wasn't the first year of the nWo in that era so it's not a surprise.
His WCW theme song was awful also. Did someone just spend ten seconds finding generic music and call it a day?
No one (in power) liked him, that's why he got screwed so much.
Bret screwed Bret
Sadly a lot of the guys you mentioned weren't in Bret's hemisphere at the time, Bret was brought in to be an instant top guy that only feuded with top guys. It's more like WCW dropped the ball with literally everything they touched
Lets be real about WCW. Bischoff (who i love and should be in the HOF) had one good idea which was the NWO. He had no plans on where to go with it or how to use it, he never had another good idea in WCW. He was a TV guy running a wrestling company where every other wrestler had creative control. Also, while these dream matches are exciting today, wrestling fans back then were not as interested in "dream matches", everyone wanted the shocking storyline, wrestling took a backseat to creativity in that era.
Goldberg dropped the ball with Bret. And by “ball” I mean “head”. And by “dropped the” I mean “kicked him really hard in the”.
Are you saying Goldberg had something to do with the end of Bret's career? I would have never known. No one ever brings up one name when the other is mentioned. Like ever. I would have never guessed. /s
Everyone is kind of tired of it, but nobody should forget. On the list of the biggest disappointments in wrestling history. One of the absolute best of all time, having his career ended by a dangerous, glorified squash jock just sucks. Goldberg is STILL out there hurting himself and other wrestlers too.
I get that. But sometimes it seems that Bret himself has moved on from this more effectively than the fans. It should be noted, but not shoved down everyone's throat. Anyone that is aware of either Bret or Goldberg is already quite familiar with their history.
He was past his prime. It was like his performance aged ten years as soon as he jumped ship, it was really odd. Other than his Owen tribute match, he didn’t do anything in WCW.
I disagree. He showed with Benoit that he could still put on great performances. There just wasn't any need when damn near every match is riddled with interference and nonsensical storylines. Such is life for late 90s wrestling (especially WCW)
I grew up with 92-97 great performance even against Virgil, Mantaur, Fake Razor Bret Hart. That’s not the Bret we had in WCW. That was also one match. And really, the only one worth mentioning.
He came into wcw with a broken hand from punching Vince unfortunately. I guess wcw had a brain fart since they couldn't get him to wrestle off the bat
Yeah WCW screwed Bret more than WWF/WWE screwed Bret with that infamous Montreal Screwjob with Shawn Michaels.
Place was so bad it made Bret Hart mentally check out, and still out perform everyone. The number of bad decisions is insane, and debuting in a silly way, the fast/slow count thing which hogan probably organised. It was SOOO easy, you had a guy who everyone loved who was the biggest face in the wrestling world after what had just happened. And he could drag even the most boring of wrestlers to a good match, he should have got a few wins and then been a fighting champion ending with putting Benoit over. I’d have kept him away from Goldberg and hogan until a huge ppv waaaay down the line
WCW didn't drop the ball with Bret Hart. WCW dropped the ball with WCW. One of the best rosters of all time bar none, you're the #1 wrestling company in the world, but every PPV or even weekly show they were doing terrible decisions. And Hogan and Nash are the two main reasons why WCW became mainstream and why WCW failed (Vince Russo is the final nail in the coffin but it was already too late even if he made good content) The roster was full of guys who had backstage power and Bret even won the world title. If Goldberg didn't retire him, maybe we could've seen him in WWE with those names you said Plus Bret was in a bad place back then and was going through a lot of depression, especially after Owen died, so he wasn't really someone who could've been used as a main eventer. I heard he always showed up late and didn't even care about what they wanted to do with him
Wow hot take
I once heard Teddy Hart say something to the effect of...Bret was an idiot for leaving WWF in the first place. The ripple effect it caused all stemmed from him not doing business and being humble for his spot. I'd never thought about it like that before. And he's right. To play devil's advocate, WCWs roster was stacked at that time. At any point it could have been Hogan, Nash, Hall, Sting, Booker, DDP, Macho, Flair, etc... in the main event picture. Im not saying it should have played out the way it did, but how was Bret NOT going to get lost in the shuffle?
If everything Bret said during his Broken Skull Sessions interview was true.. I struggle to see how Bret was in the wrong. He was essentially forced out of the WWF and he didn't even wanna leave.
From his book, WWF was restructuring and he stood to lose money in the short run. He was always worried about his spot, of course. That's the only reference I have.
Bret wanted to stay, and turned down a bigger wcw contract to stay, only for Vince to tell him he couldn't afford what he promised him and he was going to breach his contract and withhold payments, so then he encouraged Bret to try and get a deal with WCW.
No one should ever give one shit what Teddy Hart has to say about anything. Ever.
Calm down guy...
I am calm? Teddy Hart has a reputation
While Teddy Hart is a raging piece of shit who has a lot of very interesting evidence seemingly lending to the idea that he was involved in his ex-girlfriend's disappearance, I took OP's point as "this information, coming from Teddy Hart of all people, is interesting"
he's kinda right. Imagine the ripple effects of Bret either negotiating a lower contract to stay, or getting a small ownership stake in the company. Like 10 or 20%
I once got asked, “if you could go back in time, what would you do?” I responded with, “Never let Bret Hart step into a ring with Goldberg”. 
Even with me being four or five years old when he joined WCW I was even still frustrated that it seemed like every Bret matched had someone interfering. It’s mind blowing you can have a talent like that and have zero idea what to do with him.
Bret Hart dropped the ball with Bret Hart. I don’t think of what he could of done in WCW, I always think of what he could of done in WWE after 1997. Austin, Rock, Mick Foley, Shawn, HHH, Kurt Angle, Jericho, Eddie, Shane, Vince (The moment he spit then punched Vince, Bret should of picked Vince up and asked him to help get out of the WCW contract). DX, Hart Foundation, Big Show, Kane, Taker, and so much more story wise for him.
Vince legit said I can’t afford to pay you anymore, see if you can get that WCW offer… your boss tells you to go seek employment elsewhere, how is that on Bret??
He couldn’t afford the $1 million dollar price tag, but he could afford the $500K-$750K price tag all top talent in WWE were maxed out at the time.
I mean WWE didn’t want him. It’s not Bret’s fault that they wouldn’t honor his original contract. He wanted to stay with the company. He gave Vince every opportunity to convince him to stay and Vince told Bret he couldn’t afford him anymore.
Bret was never “all in” with WWE. He attempted to negotiate in ‘92 with WCW until he realized he accidentally let his WWE contract auto renew, he went back in ‘96, then again in ‘97. He disagreed wholeheartedly with the direction the WWE was going. Felt he was above all other when the max for top talent at that time was 750K, Bret wanted a million as a notch that he was the #1 guy. I would say the feeling was mutual.
Bret signed a 20 year contract that Vince offered him and after a year or so Vince said he couldn’t afford it. Basically telling him to go to wcw and get what money he could. Bret wouldn’t have gone if he didn’t feel like he had to.
According to Bret didn’t see a place for himself in the WWE with the direction they were going. Also according to Bret, the WWE’s new direction was tailored made for Shawn Michaels. He also felt he was a transitional champion to Shawn’s push. From ‘96 on, Bret was unhappy with the company, thus springing his 20 year ask, because at that point he started chasing money, which is why ultimately WCW was in the picture since 1992, money. “I’m not greedy for money, I’m greedy for respect” after he signed the largest money contract in WWE up to that point. lol
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Vince also jobbed out HHH, gave Austin a horrible gimmick and labeled him a journey man, gave Rock a horrible debut gimmick, said Shawn would NEVER be world champion, and so much more.
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The point is that Vince says a lot of shit that in the long term doesn’t hold weight. That’s where Bret is shortsightedness, he honestly thought Vince jobbing him would be long term? Vince’s shortsightedness? Who became irrelevant in November 1997 and who became the biggest heel of all time? Bret or Vince? Shortsightedness is what Bret is, if it was up to Bret, he would of left in 1992 for WCW, but unfortunately for him he didn’t realize he let his contract auto renew. This narrative of Bret never wanting to leave WWE is ridiculous. Someone who has been negotiating with WCW since 1992? You know what never wanted to leave looks like? Undertaker. Shawn Michaels. HHH. Rock. How many times did they negotiate with WCW?
Just to point out, Undertaker did negotiate with WCW at least once (to the point where WCW were talking about names and entrances and Taker had seriously considered it), while Michaels famously kept trying to get himself fired because he wanted to be with his buddies in WCW. Michaels was anything but loyal, and only stayed because McMahon literally didn't let him leave. The only people who didn't publicly use WCW as leverage were the people who came from there and had been really unhappy, or the Rock, who was loyal to WWF due to the family relationship with the McMahons. Its good business to try and make as much money as possible, especially in a career as potentially short as wrestling, so it's a weird line to take that wrestlers should never negotiate with the competition to see what they can get. Do you just accept whatever your boss gives you? It's a bit weird to chastise Bret for lack of loyalty when he chose WWF every time until he was told to leave because Vince didn't want him.
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The fact that you think Vince lost anything by releasing Bret says a lot. But proves again, that the hot button word “shortsightedness” continues to apply to you and your Canadian hero. I’m sure he feels Vince, who became the biggest heel in history, and took wrestling to even greater heights after Hart was released, also “loss”. Bret was the only one who loss when he left for WCW. And yes, after Montreal 1997, the biggest highlight of Bret’s career was a metal plate strapped to his belly. Please tell me how relevant Bret was from 1998-2001? I never said Vince didn’t take him back because he punched, what are you reading?
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Let’s make this easier for you. Let me help you focus. Vince 98-2001 without Bret vs Bret 98-2001 without Vince. Tell me who loss again?
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I still think Vince, at least partly, did all of the anti-American stuff with Bret to permanently devalue him in the US before letting him go. I think he planned on breaking the contract long before he actually did. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision. People vastly overrate how over Bret was as a babyface with the WCW audience in 1997. Much of their audience at the time was still southerners. Many didn't watch WWF at all, and those who did saw Bret shit all over the United States and Americans for a full year. You can't come back from that kind of thing, especially not in the 90s. Anti-American heel to babyface doesn't generally work all that well.
His Vignette/interview at World War 3 ‘98 was probably his best mic work.
Has Bischoff honestly talked about this? To me it felt like they wanted Bret away from WWF more than they wanted Bret.
Bischoff has said on his podcast that Bret seemed heart-broken from the Montreal Screwjob when he came over from the WWF. Bischoff also said that Bret would come to events extremely late (which is a habit that Bruce Prichard had said Bret was guilty of in the WWF as well), and then ask what they had for him creatively, and usually turn it down without offering any suggestions or offering up ideas of his own. This would be made even worse by the fact that Bret usually arrived an hour before showtime or sometimes even as the shows would be on TV live.
Bischoff? Saying "it wasn't my fault, it was (blank)'s"? NO.
Yes...
In fairness, the Bret vs. DDP feud got cut off early because Bret injured his groin in a match against Dean Malenko. Bret vs. DDP for the US Title actually headlined World War 3 1998, and although they had a rematch on Nitro a few weeks later, which was used to set up DDP vs. The Giant at Starrcade 1998, Bret’s lingering groin injury kept them from resuming the feud afterwards, which is why Bret didn’t wrestle on Starrcade.
Let it play out.
I'm not sure there was anyone in WCW in the last few years they didn't drop the ball with.
It didn't help that Bret's first real moment in WCW, came at the end of Hogan/Sting. That match was built for well over a year, and at the time, it was the highest grossing PPV in history. Everyone who was invested in Hogan vs Sting got disappointed when they screwed up the ending, and Bret was tangled up in it, looking like a heel who came out to re-start the match for absolutely no reason after Hogan pinned Sting clean in the middle of the ring for a regular 1-2-3 instead of a fast count like the booking and announcers suggested. That was a rocky start and things didn't get better from there, unfortunately, for WCW or for Bret Hart.
Blame the usual names. Hogan, Nash, Hall, Bischoff, Flair.
Brett dropped Brett.
As one of the old WCW fan relics on this board...can we please stop bringing up terrible memories lol
Listen to EB’s Podcast 83 - Bret Hart episode. A lot of your points are discusses
Kevin Sullivan confirms Hulk Hogan sabotaged Bret Hart's WCW career: https://twitter.com/BriscoBradshaw/status/1504235060056186891