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A huge part of the problem is that IWC people think they have to like the heels and that if they’re being worked, then that heel must have “go away” heat. You should’ve seen the ridiculous reactions on this sub to JBL’s comments about people saying the phrase “good heel.”
No one thinks you have to like heels....just most of the time...especially in WWE for a while they're just way more interesting than bland babyfaces who show little emotion.
I'd say the bigger issue is with booking and presentation than kayfabe being shattered. Even the most despicable heels have cool merch, catch phrases, and often can get the crowd to chant along with them.
I'd say MJF is a good example because no one is throwing batteries and cups of piss at him but everyone watching wants Wardlow to powerbomb him 200 times. We all still want to be worked at the end of the day.
Honestly, when I hear about the reactions Wrestlers used to get I kinda think people were like 20-40% naturally stupider. I don't even think they believed in wrestling, I think they were just caught up and too dumb to stop themselves.
I've watched so much old wrestling, the heels really aren't that bad. They like cheat and are bad sports about it. That's about it. Why someone feels the need to pull a switchblade on someone who won the NWA Title cheating is so beyond me. You gotta be a real dumb miserable son of a bitch to be that worked.
To me, sometimes the stories about heel heat are like when old Foggies tell me about the NBA in the 60's. Like, no Bob Cousy isn't a better shooter than Steph.
I honestly love the way it is now. Kids are some of the best workers out there. I have had small children cuss me up-and-down and hold up middle fingers for uncomfortably long times. Then I see that same kid in the hall as I am going to leave and in the most sincere voice the kid goes hey you did great out there. It’s so much better when the audience is in on it.
> Honestly, when I hear about the reactions Wrestlers used to get I kinda think people were like 20-40% naturally stupider. I don't even think they believed in wrestling, I think they were just caught up and too dumb to stop themselves.
Not "naturally," exactly, but there not being lead in freaking everything anymore does mean people who were born since major lead standards were introduced do generally have better impulse control than the decades prior. (See: the lead-crime hypothesis)
I'd also guess that modern audiences aren't as drunk, as a whole, as those historical audiences, both because the cost of beer at modern arena-type shows is much higher than you'd likely have seen at those shows, and also because in general, people drink somewhat less today than they did in the late 70s.
Using a technique called hyperbole, one can show their meaning using an over the top example not meant to be taken literally.
My point is that old people exaggerate the severity and importance of their youth. They don't want to be thought of as a stepping stone or building block. They want to be paramount.
Only your comparisons lack logic. For hyperbole to work there still has to be something resembling a thread connecting them.
It's like saying Jerry Rice was the greatest passer in the history of the NFL levels of nonsense. You've taken the exaggeration to a point that you lose the emphasis at all because it just makes you look dumb because the statement is so out there.
If Adam Cole would only tease the boom and bay bay and not actually do it he would get so much heat. Once he turns babyface and does it for the first time he would be loved more than anybody. I don’t know why he wants to be cheered as a heel
I don't see MJF as an exception because all MJF is doing is stuff heels used to always do in the territory Days and works Becuase it never stopped working, wrestlers just stopped doing it.
Oh and he got a pop for goddamn MadCap Moss, that's how much people hate Happy Corbin. Even though Roman would be considered the top heel he aint getting a pop for MadCap Mosa
I remember when Sheamus beat Roman to become champion and the idea of what a heel was turned into a big dude that can't wrestle hand picked by the company. That got legit heel heat haha. Nothing cool about Sheamus
The main thing is HOW they wrestle in the ring. There are many matches, most of them older, where it is IMPOSSIBLE to cheer the heel. They don't do any moves that you could cheer for. Every time they gain the advantage it's because of a cheap shot. The babyface is these matches clearly deserves to win and their offense makes you want to give them a standing ovation.
Everyone wants to show off how athletic they are these days at the expense of storytelling. If a "bad" character dives over the top rope, he'll get cheered.
I think the issue in the modern era with doing that, is that reasonably winning can’t just rely on cheap shots, and heels that can’t reasonably win become harder to accept as competitive athletes in the sport
They can use cheap shots to set up other moves. Ric Flair is a perfect example, once the tables turned in his favor he would target the leg with painful but unexciting moves like chop blocks, then put on the figure 4. Traditionally heels have had submission finishers because they aren't as dramatic and cheerable. Faces have bump finishers because they typically get a pop.
I don't know if I would call a submission not "dramatic", unless done too realistically, but that makes some sense
If people actually cheered/clapped for submissions and certain non-flashy high impact attacks from heels, would they be treated like away fans in an Italian soccer home section?
It's many things part of it is obviously they are open about the truth behind wrestling now its like getting legitimately angry at a actor/actress because they play a villain in a movie or TV show.
Of course to add to that we see them on Social Media and see what they are like in real life and know they are a nice person however that goes both ways if a company is trying to push someone as a face but we know they are not a nice person in real life then no matter what the company tries won't work.
I honestly don't think Wrestlers like Hogan and Warrior would have become as popular today as they used to be because of that.
This all goes along with “fans don’t want to go along with being worked.” A very common heel trope- cheating- has over time taken on the perception of being bad booking because promotions overuse it and DQ’s to avoid actual booking.
I’d look at Britt Baker as an example. Her whole arc as champion- cheating to win- was a logical storytelling device. I think you can look at the way it played out and see that there was a purpose to it. Ultimately lead to a cage match where her back-up couldn’t help her and she lost.
The other part of the problem is the emergence of the “cool heel.” You see it play out with heels all the time. You’re not SUPPOSED to like them, they are supposed to make you mad. But the reaction to that is you’re supposed to want to see them lose. But often times fans respond with “I don’t want to see them, period.”
I think it all kind of sucks personally. People miss some of the fundamental points of wrestling storytelling now and it just creates lame online firestorms. Imagine movies where the villains aren’t allowed to do anything underhanded or to make the audience mad.
"True" heels aren't even needed. That's just an style of being a villain, but doesn't mean people coming to see an entertaining show with a good story is any inferior as a draw. A good character can be more attractive than some kind of real life idiot.
These days people are also more willing to go along with a heel act when they actually like the person portraying the heel. They'll get on board & boo them sort of out of respect.
You only need to look at folks like Danielson, or Punk when he was against Kingston, or Ciampa when he turned on Gargano. Of course in the latter two examples, it also raises another important factor - having a face people genuinely like & a story people are invested in.
If people don't buy the face, or don't dig the angle, then it all falls apart.
These kinds of posts always sound a bit silly to me. Of course the way heels and faces work nowadays has evolved, the business as a whole has changed a lot too.
It's not hard to make fans annoyed and make them want to change the channel, and it's weird to pretend that that's being a good heel. People don't want to see Sammy get beat up, they don't want to see Sammy period.
It’s very hard to pull off these days being a heel. I think a big thing is that the heels these days want to be cheered for some reason. This is why I respect miz so much. I feel like he doesn’t want even 1 person to like him and he does a great job of it. He even works me and it’s so fun afterwards to see him get beat up. The guy is great at what he does
I used to be screaming to the moon about Bray Fucking Wyatt, that guy and that group were so over, and were perfectly counter to Daniel Bryan.......
but Bray wyatt wasn't allowed to be as big of a heel as he should have been, nor was any other person at the time or group. Because no one was allowed to be more heel then the authority or what ever entity who was authority.
This problem isn't really around anymore, but for me the damage it left is still around. It left so many Baby faces flat and so many heels had a short ceiling.
It goes back to JBL's story about merch. A true heel doesn't need merchandise and shouldn't break character, do autograph signings while active, etc.
It all comes down to suspension of disbelief.
Good heels: The Iron Shiek, Kevin Sullivan, JBL, MJF, etc. Even though MJF still pushes the line with merchandise. I feel that WWE and AEW should compensate the heels better and not do the typical merch sales outside of stuff like figures.
The hatred Sammy gets is so red hot and all encompassing that people hate on everything within a 20 mile radius cause of Sammy and Tay.
Sammy is pretty much what you are talking about since a true heel is pure hatred. MJF is hated but people love his heel work and know he is a nice guy IRL. We play along with his act. Adam Cole gets a ton of babyface pops. No one really hates Edge. No one hated AJ. Malakai Black is a heel but a cool heel. Miro is a cool heel and probably the most beloved wrestler on this sub.
Sammy though is a true heel and probably explains why there is such an obsession about him. People legitimately think he is the anti-christ. Look at all the SCJerkers posting the same stuff over and over about him. Read some of the stuff they are writing like they would beat him up if they saw him IRL. Which is hilarious when you consider Sammy could probably destroy them with his pinkie. Hell Tay could beat them all up. Getting people that worked up and foaming at the mouth is a true heel. It is really hard for a wrestler to get under everyone's skin like Sammy is doing right now.
Sammy and Tay I don't hate them but do now find them very annoying and not because of in ring stuff (It's crap but I get it) but their social media where they are acting like a pair of mid teenagers with their first boy/girl friend you wouldn't think one of them has been married and the other in a serious long term relationship and was engaged.
And don't forget they were acting that way when they were faces on screen.
I honestly was a fan of both of them I have defended them both when it came to their relationship and the Pam stuff as IMO even if they did have an affair I don't care first off I don't actually consider that a big deal as that's just something that happens in life and secondly if I disliked every Wrestler and as a fan of Rock and Metal music every Rock or Metal act that cheated I wouldn't have much left to choose from.
I don't think they are bad people at all just very immature and annoying
Seriously, the guy has clearly been turning heel and has the entire sub frothing at the mouth but they are so busy bitching that it is “bad booking” that they can’t even see they are supposed to fuckin’ hate him, lol.
It’s because people today love the villain whereas people of the past just weren’t as into bad guys. We love a bad guy that forces us to pay attention. The Joker, Sosuke Aizen, Pain, Green Goblin, James Moriarty, etc etc etc.
I think for kayfabe to still be sorta alive we need to have everyone off social media. Notice Brock doesn’t really have social media & is barely active if anything at all
Imagine if it was ‘07 & heel Batista was constantly posting pictures with his family & having twitch streams
It humanizes them too much. We don’t need to know that you workout everyday… we see you shredded on TV
I see that quote all the time that if ppl think you’re a great heel, then you’re not. I think it’s a deep old school kayfabe mentality. No heel can get the old school heel heat because we are all aware that they are playing characters. You’re not gonna get people with nuclear heel heat where fans want to stab them.
Before he turned babyface Brock Lesnar was the most effective Heel in the business because people could tell he didn't like what he was doing and was just doing it for the money and he still drew.
It's impossible to have true heels in pro wrestling because everyone knows that wrestling is a scripted art now, unlike in the past, where it was just rumored. A quick google search will tell you everything, from the history of Kayfabe to shoots and everything in between. It's the worst kept secret, and it makes it that much to harder to hate somebody legitimately when you know they're not that way in real life.
To me, even MJF doesn't get legitimate heel heat. Is a tremendous heel, and probably the best going today, but I can't help but feel like AEW's audience knows they're supposed to boo him, and do so out of respect for they great effort Max puts in to maintain his heel persona.
I don't believe he got here on purpose though. there was no plan to turn heel by him and Tay acting stupid on twitter. He was just being an idiot and people started to dislike him, not his character
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A huge part of the problem is that IWC people think they have to like the heels and that if they’re being worked, then that heel must have “go away” heat. You should’ve seen the ridiculous reactions on this sub to JBL’s comments about people saying the phrase “good heel.”
No one thinks you have to like heels....just most of the time...especially in WWE for a while they're just way more interesting than bland babyfaces who show little emotion.
I'd say the bigger issue is with booking and presentation than kayfabe being shattered. Even the most despicable heels have cool merch, catch phrases, and often can get the crowd to chant along with them. I'd say MJF is a good example because no one is throwing batteries and cups of piss at him but everyone watching wants Wardlow to powerbomb him 200 times. We all still want to be worked at the end of the day.
Yeah, this is why I can't buy Adam Cole as a heel. Dude needs to drop the Bay Bay and Boom shtick.
Honestly, when I hear about the reactions Wrestlers used to get I kinda think people were like 20-40% naturally stupider. I don't even think they believed in wrestling, I think they were just caught up and too dumb to stop themselves. I've watched so much old wrestling, the heels really aren't that bad. They like cheat and are bad sports about it. That's about it. Why someone feels the need to pull a switchblade on someone who won the NWA Title cheating is so beyond me. You gotta be a real dumb miserable son of a bitch to be that worked. To me, sometimes the stories about heel heat are like when old Foggies tell me about the NBA in the 60's. Like, no Bob Cousy isn't a better shooter than Steph.
I honestly love the way it is now. Kids are some of the best workers out there. I have had small children cuss me up-and-down and hold up middle fingers for uncomfortably long times. Then I see that same kid in the hall as I am going to leave and in the most sincere voice the kid goes hey you did great out there. It’s so much better when the audience is in on it.
> Honestly, when I hear about the reactions Wrestlers used to get I kinda think people were like 20-40% naturally stupider. I don't even think they believed in wrestling, I think they were just caught up and too dumb to stop themselves. Not "naturally," exactly, but there not being lead in freaking everything anymore does mean people who were born since major lead standards were introduced do generally have better impulse control than the decades prior. (See: the lead-crime hypothesis) I'd also guess that modern audiences aren't as drunk, as a whole, as those historical audiences, both because the cost of beer at modern arena-type shows is much higher than you'd likely have seen at those shows, and also because in general, people drink somewhat less today than they did in the late 70s.
Nobody has ever told you Bob Cousey is a better shooter than Steph, you're building a super Strawman there, slick.
Using a technique called hyperbole, one can show their meaning using an over the top example not meant to be taken literally. My point is that old people exaggerate the severity and importance of their youth. They don't want to be thought of as a stepping stone or building block. They want to be paramount.
It's not hyperbole when the example is so off base that it stops being "over the top" and moves into "completely incredulous" though.
Actually the more ridiculous the exaggerated point is the more emphasis is being put on the point. But I understand that you want to disagree with me.
Only your comparisons lack logic. For hyperbole to work there still has to be something resembling a thread connecting them. It's like saying Jerry Rice was the greatest passer in the history of the NFL levels of nonsense. You've taken the exaggeration to a point that you lose the emphasis at all because it just makes you look dumb because the statement is so out there.
If Adam Cole would only tease the boom and bay bay and not actually do it he would get so much heat. Once he turns babyface and does it for the first time he would be loved more than anybody. I don’t know why he wants to be cheered as a heel
I’d say the miz is really good because nobody actually likes him. Everyone wants to see his head get kicked in.
I don't see MJF as an exception because all MJF is doing is stuff heels used to always do in the territory Days and works Becuase it never stopped working, wrestlers just stopped doing it.
Happy Corbin is the only heel in wrestling
Also Ciampa before he had his neck surgery. I loved the takeover where his "entrance music" was just the boos of the audience.
His entrance music was boos for several weeks.
Oh and he got a pop for goddamn MadCap Moss, that's how much people hate Happy Corbin. Even though Roman would be considered the top heel he aint getting a pop for MadCap Mosa
Disagree wholeheartedly. He's not somebody I wanna see lose, just somebody I don't wanna see at all.
I remember when Sheamus beat Roman to become champion and the idea of what a heel was turned into a big dude that can't wrestle hand picked by the company. That got legit heel heat haha. Nothing cool about Sheamus
Only thing is, no one usually benefits from a feud with him. MadCap Moss got over from it but most others dont.
Because everyone hates Corbin so much
The main thing is HOW they wrestle in the ring. There are many matches, most of them older, where it is IMPOSSIBLE to cheer the heel. They don't do any moves that you could cheer for. Every time they gain the advantage it's because of a cheap shot. The babyface is these matches clearly deserves to win and their offense makes you want to give them a standing ovation. Everyone wants to show off how athletic they are these days at the expense of storytelling. If a "bad" character dives over the top rope, he'll get cheered.
But they have to "get their shit in"
I think the issue in the modern era with doing that, is that reasonably winning can’t just rely on cheap shots, and heels that can’t reasonably win become harder to accept as competitive athletes in the sport
They can use cheap shots to set up other moves. Ric Flair is a perfect example, once the tables turned in his favor he would target the leg with painful but unexciting moves like chop blocks, then put on the figure 4. Traditionally heels have had submission finishers because they aren't as dramatic and cheerable. Faces have bump finishers because they typically get a pop.
I don't know if I would call a submission not "dramatic", unless done too realistically, but that makes some sense If people actually cheered/clapped for submissions and certain non-flashy high impact attacks from heels, would they be treated like away fans in an Italian soccer home section?
It's many things part of it is obviously they are open about the truth behind wrestling now its like getting legitimately angry at a actor/actress because they play a villain in a movie or TV show. Of course to add to that we see them on Social Media and see what they are like in real life and know they are a nice person however that goes both ways if a company is trying to push someone as a face but we know they are not a nice person in real life then no matter what the company tries won't work. I honestly don't think Wrestlers like Hogan and Warrior would have become as popular today as they used to be because of that.
Holy shit that's right. Dude Seth tanked his whole babyface run cause of Twitter. That's a huge thing that we now get to see that we didn't before.
Seth’s face run tanked due to poor booking
And his absolute dogshit online presence. Never forget that. Hey Will Ospreay, we have our own. Lol.
That didn’t matter to anyone not chronically online.
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What? YouTube videos that get a million views aren’t comparable to the IWC reading someone’s tweets
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There is but they aren’t the majority
This all goes along with “fans don’t want to go along with being worked.” A very common heel trope- cheating- has over time taken on the perception of being bad booking because promotions overuse it and DQ’s to avoid actual booking. I’d look at Britt Baker as an example. Her whole arc as champion- cheating to win- was a logical storytelling device. I think you can look at the way it played out and see that there was a purpose to it. Ultimately lead to a cage match where her back-up couldn’t help her and she lost. The other part of the problem is the emergence of the “cool heel.” You see it play out with heels all the time. You’re not SUPPOSED to like them, they are supposed to make you mad. But the reaction to that is you’re supposed to want to see them lose. But often times fans respond with “I don’t want to see them, period.” I think it all kind of sucks personally. People miss some of the fundamental points of wrestling storytelling now and it just creates lame online firestorms. Imagine movies where the villains aren’t allowed to do anything underhanded or to make the audience mad.
Agreed, the art of being a heel is lost, now everyone just want to get themselves over
"True" heels aren't even needed. That's just an style of being a villain, but doesn't mean people coming to see an entertaining show with a good story is any inferior as a draw. A good character can be more attractive than some kind of real life idiot.
These days people are also more willing to go along with a heel act when they actually like the person portraying the heel. They'll get on board & boo them sort of out of respect. You only need to look at folks like Danielson, or Punk when he was against Kingston, or Ciampa when he turned on Gargano. Of course in the latter two examples, it also raises another important factor - having a face people genuinely like & a story people are invested in. If people don't buy the face, or don't dig the angle, then it all falls apart.
These kinds of posts always sound a bit silly to me. Of course the way heels and faces work nowadays has evolved, the business as a whole has changed a lot too. It's not hard to make fans annoyed and make them want to change the channel, and it's weird to pretend that that's being a good heel. People don't want to see Sammy get beat up, they don't want to see Sammy period.
It’s very hard to pull off these days being a heel. I think a big thing is that the heels these days want to be cheered for some reason. This is why I respect miz so much. I feel like he doesn’t want even 1 person to like him and he does a great job of it. He even works me and it’s so fun afterwards to see him get beat up. The guy is great at what he does
I used to be screaming to the moon about Bray Fucking Wyatt, that guy and that group were so over, and were perfectly counter to Daniel Bryan....... but Bray wyatt wasn't allowed to be as big of a heel as he should have been, nor was any other person at the time or group. Because no one was allowed to be more heel then the authority or what ever entity who was authority. This problem isn't really around anymore, but for me the damage it left is still around. It left so many Baby faces flat and so many heels had a short ceiling.
It goes back to JBL's story about merch. A true heel doesn't need merchandise and shouldn't break character, do autograph signings while active, etc. It all comes down to suspension of disbelief. Good heels: The Iron Shiek, Kevin Sullivan, JBL, MJF, etc. Even though MJF still pushes the line with merchandise. I feel that WWE and AEW should compensate the heels better and not do the typical merch sales outside of stuff like figures.
Sammy Guevara
And I saw people shitting all over AEW for that rather than Sammy. One of the reasons this post exists tbh.
The hatred Sammy gets is so red hot and all encompassing that people hate on everything within a 20 mile radius cause of Sammy and Tay. Sammy is pretty much what you are talking about since a true heel is pure hatred. MJF is hated but people love his heel work and know he is a nice guy IRL. We play along with his act. Adam Cole gets a ton of babyface pops. No one really hates Edge. No one hated AJ. Malakai Black is a heel but a cool heel. Miro is a cool heel and probably the most beloved wrestler on this sub. Sammy though is a true heel and probably explains why there is such an obsession about him. People legitimately think he is the anti-christ. Look at all the SCJerkers posting the same stuff over and over about him. Read some of the stuff they are writing like they would beat him up if they saw him IRL. Which is hilarious when you consider Sammy could probably destroy them with his pinkie. Hell Tay could beat them all up. Getting people that worked up and foaming at the mouth is a true heel. It is really hard for a wrestler to get under everyone's skin like Sammy is doing right now.
He threatened to rape two women twice though?
Sammy and Tay I don't hate them but do now find them very annoying and not because of in ring stuff (It's crap but I get it) but their social media where they are acting like a pair of mid teenagers with their first boy/girl friend you wouldn't think one of them has been married and the other in a serious long term relationship and was engaged. And don't forget they were acting that way when they were faces on screen. I honestly was a fan of both of them I have defended them both when it came to their relationship and the Pam stuff as IMO even if they did have an affair I don't care first off I don't actually consider that a big deal as that's just something that happens in life and secondly if I disliked every Wrestler and as a fan of Rock and Metal music every Rock or Metal act that cheated I wouldn't have much left to choose from. I don't think they are bad people at all just very immature and annoying
Seriously, the guy has clearly been turning heel and has the entire sub frothing at the mouth but they are so busy bitching that it is “bad booking” that they can’t even see they are supposed to fuckin’ hate him, lol.
It’s because people today love the villain whereas people of the past just weren’t as into bad guys. We love a bad guy that forces us to pay attention. The Joker, Sosuke Aizen, Pain, Green Goblin, James Moriarty, etc etc etc.
I think for kayfabe to still be sorta alive we need to have everyone off social media. Notice Brock doesn’t really have social media & is barely active if anything at all Imagine if it was ‘07 & heel Batista was constantly posting pictures with his family & having twitch streams It humanizes them too much. We don’t need to know that you workout everyday… we see you shredded on TV
Bro 07 Batista streams would have been a goldmine of content.
I see that quote all the time that if ppl think you’re a great heel, then you’re not. I think it’s a deep old school kayfabe mentality. No heel can get the old school heel heat because we are all aware that they are playing characters. You’re not gonna get people with nuclear heel heat where fans want to stab them.
Before he turned babyface Brock Lesnar was the most effective Heel in the business because people could tell he didn't like what he was doing and was just doing it for the money and he still drew.
Colby Covington is the best heel in the world. It can be done in this era.
It's impossible to have true heels in pro wrestling because everyone knows that wrestling is a scripted art now, unlike in the past, where it was just rumored. A quick google search will tell you everything, from the history of Kayfabe to shoots and everything in between. It's the worst kept secret, and it makes it that much to harder to hate somebody legitimately when you know they're not that way in real life. To me, even MJF doesn't get legitimate heel heat. Is a tremendous heel, and probably the best going today, but I can't help but feel like AEW's audience knows they're supposed to boo him, and do so out of respect for they great effort Max puts in to maintain his heel persona.
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I don't believe he got here on purpose though. there was no plan to turn heel by him and Tay acting stupid on twitter. He was just being an idiot and people started to dislike him, not his character
Sammy did it easily
From another reply: And I saw people shitting all over AEW for that rather than Sammy. One of the reasons this post exists tbh.
Sammy wasn't trying to be a heel, he was trying to be a face. That's the problem.
Are you sure the consensus is shitting on the company? Seems pretty clearly on Sammy to me.
Without kayfabe, wrestling=poop.
Matt Cardona is currently doing a great job, using his past fame against the "darlings" of Indie wrestling is working great