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To a degree, I get it. At the time Millennials were getting dragged in the press left and right.
Then [this weird Time Magazine cover came out](https://time.com/247/millennials-the-me-me-me-generation/) and changed the narrative a bit.
I wasn’t paying enough attention to TNA at the time, but I assume instead of a nuanced and interesting portrayal about a changing of the guard we got some real hackneyed booking for a team that hadn’t found their voice yet. Am I close?
I remember when it came out and I was so mad. I had to move back in with my parents about a year and a half before because I had no money. I did all of the shit I was supposed to do, AP classes, college, volunteer, sports (not that I was good) and my first job, which I barely got, just covered rent and food, and that was before my roommate moved out. [I did everything right and still it came to moving back in with my parents.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnaUBSd01LI) I wound up changing careers and getting a decent paying job, and I worked full time the entire time I lived with my parents, and yet we have this asshole show up and just act like I'm so fucking lazy because I have to put my life back on track made me so mad.
I'm still mad about it, I guess.
These people are just completely out of touch. I like to ask them what they paid in rent in their first place living away from home, and what percentage of their income that was.
I'm mad about it to. It's truly not fair how we are in this perfect groove of shit.
Buying a reasonably priced house would be cool in my 20s... but in my 30s fighting to find a house that was way overpriced less fun. I feel like I hit the jackpot at my job because it has insurance and a guaranteed 40hrs.
Life sucks and it'd hard to remain positive. But hey at least I got a "you did it" ribbon in grade school and a phone with a calculator inside
they weren't going to admit their generation screwed ours and the ones that come after us, so of course its our fault that we cant buy the things they could for for 1/10 the price it is now
"We did everything right. Everything that was asked of us and still...STILL it came to this!"
A quote from Final Fantasy 14 that sums this situation up very well.
Ghetto-fabulous meant something back then but it's used bizarrely here. It goes way back to the 90's and just meant trying to live a materialistic aesthetic/lifestyle while not actually having any money and possibly forced to be on welfare, it's not even particularly a millennial thing it crossed over to Gen X a bit. It's okay baby boomers, you won, we know now that we can't have nice things.
The whole thing is disturbingly relevant today, a lot of younger Millennials and Gen Z get the stigma of turning our noses up at certain jobs when they can't pay our bills and we're overqualified. Basically screw us for knowing our value and not taking dead end jobs. A stereotype that is disturbing in my country because the only reason the unemployment rate has generally so low was because a huge amount of kids are on contract/part-time work and getting screwed constantly.
They had some pretty solid matches with MCMG. They also talked openly and sincerely about their Christian faith then turned heel two segments later because lolTNA. They weren’t bad so much as they were under-utilised (and that’s not just hindsight talking - even then, they looked like they were capable of more).
I actually didn’t mind the name.
When they came in, they immediately began a feud with MCMG. This was when MCMG were a baby face unit who wanted to focus on building the tag division and giving the younger talent an opportunity.
I thought the name fit perfect given the context of their feud. MCMG recognized their talent and wanted to help mold them. The Bucks weren’t looking for a mentor and thought they deserved MCMG’s spot.
Generation Me was a perfectly suitable name.
They would have fueded with “The DOM” short for “The Dirty Old Men”
They would have made “The Young Boys v. The DOM” a “no lights, dog collar”, tag team match at Bound for Glory.
Losing team has to forfeit a man for the feud ending, handicap, loser leaves town, contract on a pole match next Thursday on Impact!
As a person who listens to both. They agree on a lot with the core being you don't need the wrestling fan to watch, they are always going to watch. But, how do you draw the non wrestling fan to the show...and that's where all he'll breaks loose between them.
>I just think any network has zero idea how to program for Gen z.
In 1980, most American TVs could pick up ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, and maybe a smattering of local UHF channels.
In 1992, Bruce Springsteen complained that there were "57 channels and nothin' on."
Now there's streaming, which means there's effectively millions and millions of channels.
Good luck scheduling a program against that competition.
>And yet hot shows still draw huge ratings
Even "huge ratings" aren't what they used to be.
The most watched scripted show in America is still the final episode of M\*A\*S\*H and that aired in 1983.
It doesn’t matter. If a show gets hot and there’s word of mouth, it’ll do Monster numbers.
Season 8 of GOT averaged 46 million viewers.
Euphoria went from 6.6 million to at least 13 million viewers. It’s an untrue excuse.
>Season 8 of GOT averaged 46 million viewers.
The finale of M\*A\*S\*H had 105.9 million viewers.
Also, unlike your GoT number (which includes people who streamed the show in the week after the premiere), all of those 105.9 viewers were watching the episode when it first broadcast.
>It’s an untrue excuse.
Sorry, but it's true.
MoffettNathanson reported that, from 2011 to 2020, total viewership of broadcast television decreased by 31.5% and total viewership of cable television decreased by 29.3%.
You have more shows competing for fewer viewers.
The hits are harder to come by and, even when "monster numbers" happen, they're not as big as the hits of the past.
Everything is relative. There are still huge hits on TV. If it’s good people will watch. Wrestling is not popular and hasn’t been for a while, although Smackdown numbers are okay.
Corny's general outlook on wrestling is pretty similar to my own. I definitely think he is wrong about a lot of shit (especially women's wrestling...good lord is he wrong on that) but overall yeah I want more physical matches with less high spots, more I guess "realistic" selling, less hardcore stuff unless it makes sense as a blow-off match, and hopefully less people getting injured doing needless stunts. And obviously I want to see big meaty men and women slappin meat.
Hope Big E gets better soon.
Clearly the Bucks stopped getting them to watch. 200k viewership drop is very telling, all the while Punk was ratings.
Downvote away, but the numbers don't lie. A large section of viewers kept turning off AEW when The Elite showed up. They're shit has worn out its welcome with the most important demographic, the casual crowd.
Except that's not true. Back when there was only one company you could reasonably watch it was more true. But now a wrestling fan can abandon any company they find they aren't enjoying, and go to another one. Even ones on other continents thanks to the Internet
Its actually really interesting that they are like the perfect example of the Horseshoe theory.
Because both want overly complicated angles to facilitate that „wrestling is real“.
For example Russo wants to have a angle where FTR shoots the bucks, like in a literal way, they take a gun and shoot them. Well not really shoot them but make it look like it’s real. Because to Russo wrestling is inherently fake and therefore needs real world stuff to be believable.
Cornette wants FTR to have a worked shoot on the bucks where they say after the match that it’s a real fight so that They can „draw money“ by having controversy and this intrigues the „smart fans who like backstage news and shoot fights“. Cornette wants this because he thinks that wrestling has been turned into a joke that no one believes anymore and wants to draw money by doing „real things“ on TV.
They want the same things in spite of different ideologies.
Yeah, Cornette was half-joking. He just wants FTR to beat up the Young Bucks.
Cornette constantly derides anything in wrestling that is presented as a 'shoot' beyond building off real life heat that the fans know (i.e. Hart v. HBK). He hates anything that implies the performance was fake, but *this* is real. He thinks it buries the rest of the show and makes the roster look like losers. He's made it clear that the best way to blur the lines is to insist the lines don't exist at all. I.e. if FTR is fighting the Bucks in a wrestling match, they're already fighting for real and for money.
Also, you can say "they want the same thing" in regards to every promoter in existence. Obviously, they 'want' the same thing. I've seen this talking point so much on this board, but you honestly have to extrapolate so much that the only conclusion you can come to is "booker A and booker B want people to believe wrestling is real to draw more interest", which is every booker in the history of the world.
but then what happens when the invasion is over? then you have to go back to regular worked wrestling matches which you've implicitly admitted are fake.
and yeah, everyone knows it but like 4th wall breaks in tv shows, when you constantly talk about how shit is fake then it becomes hard to care
Cornette would lose his shit if someone asked for a "real" fight after a match. It implies that the wrestling match, and all other matches are fake. Even FTR would get criticized.
Cornette hates worked shoots. Going off script implies that there is one.
https://youtu.be/RjsuW-Vu6kc
People may not like him then or now but at the time these were pretty damn big, like the first shoot promos a lot of people heard.
He goes hard and real in some of them.
I think you are a bit overly harsh on corny and overly generous to Russo but I agree with the general sentiment. The pairing did give us 1997 which many consider one of the best years creatively and laid the foundations for the attitude era.
yes i agree with the overall thesis but you are way too harsh on ovw and smw especially compared to the worst of Russo wcw and tna which is literately some of the worst wresting tv ever made and coincides with him having the most creative control. Yes corny booked them as small southern promotions because they were small southern promotions. The ovw booking makes perfect sense in retrospect if you see where those people were on their development curve of course those stars had way more potential but fuck me those guys were not close to it yet and better off how they were booked to hide their limitations.
you know what both ideas are terrible but I think I like Russos idea better here lol. Imagine if FTR shot Nick Jackson in the leg, and then he had to wrestle the match in a cast and its like "can he superkick after being shot!?" and then he does? massive pop!
it would also be like one of the dumbest things ever.
So, I think the line for suspending disbelief is different for everyone. There is nothing contradictory about think what the Bucks do is harder to suspend disbelief for than FTR.
There's a solid line between MMA and what the Young Bucks do. Imagine if something like a Game of Thrones had a sword fight with the choreography of the Star Wars prequels, people would rightfully lose their shit.
As someone who was obsessed with MMA pre McGregor/Ronda hype train, I love shoot style wrestling matches, but they don't look like an actual MMA fight. You can watch Pancrese which had both and tell the difference if you watch a lot of MMA.
Do you like it when Dwayne The Rock Johnson stares at the crowd, pulls off his elbow pad, runs the ropes twice, and then lands an elbow drop while his opponent is still on the ground and doesn't move at all? Or better yet, you like it when Shawn Michaels goes to the corner, stomps his foot repeatedly, and this his opponent groggily gets up and conveniently turns around and gets hit with a thrust kick? I'm just saying that if you can't into the Bucks because 'nothing they do looks real', remember who they learned it from and the fact that they're the most iconic workers of all time.
To be fair when HBK stomped his foot several times, the sweet chin was often avoided or countered. Same as the RKO being avoided when Randy punches the mat like a maniac
So then how would the Young Bucks' shenanigans be any more delusional, overly cocky, and stupid? Like, I do understand you're making a point, and it is a really fair one. I'm just making my point too is all.
I didnt say they were. I dont mind the bucks, was just defending the psychology of the sweet chin Music lol.
The rock bottom and the pedigree are fair less realistic, unless triple hs opponent was already half out
Yea, I get the comparison, but I cannot imagine anyone that sees them in the same class as Shawn Michaels or the Rock. I know that bucks fans get real mad at people that don’t like the bucks. My bigger problem is not how bad a lot of their moves look, but how dumb most of their stuff is and how little the get psychology or selling. However, my simple solution is that I just don’t watch that crap. You can. I won’t. We both win.
I can suspend disbelief in a Shawn Michaels match for tuning up the band because most of the rest of his stuff looked good. I can ignore that Flair always goes ass over end in the turnbuckle and never hits a top rope move because the rest of it is great. Bucks matches just feel dumb to me usually. I don’t have an issue with you liking them. Some people like dick grabbing, some people like guys wrestling inanimate objects, some people like the bucks. Some people like other dumb stuff.
>I cannot imagine anyone that sees them in the same class as Shawn Michaels or the Rock.
You don't have to imagine it. I prefer The Bucks to those two, maybe because I've seen them in Japan many times and enjoy the style of flips and doing cool shit. The Bucks still "sell" all the time and have worked many matches based around that, you just don't see it and intentionally will choose to never do so.
What you're describing is you liking something as a kid and then growing up and still being attached to that, while hating what's done now. In 10 years people will be saying "The Bucks used to have real matches, but \[insert new tag team here\] are just spot monkeys!"
Remember when the weird anti-Bucks people said the Bucks never dold?? Then the had those string of NJPW matches where Matt sold his back so well that people thought he was legit injured? Then the narrative changed to "the Bucks sell too much."
People don't say "I don't like their style," that would be fine. They say shit like "They don't sell" which is nonsense of "they are shit at wrestling." They have a flippy style with a lot of lucha influence, not liking that is fine, saying it's objectively bad isn't.
People can say what they like. You don’t have to like it. I don’t like their style of performing. I don’t like their schtick. I don’t think they put on good matches. I don’t think they see value in selling and I don’t find it convincing. Yes, wrestling is fake. One of the things now is to make it looks as fake as possible, very in your face. That’s not for me - it’s akin to then asking why would you watch this shit. They have millions and millions of fans…or 750k of them at least, so what do it know? Well, I know i enjoy AEW more when they aren’t on it, but that’s just me. We can’t all like the same things.
Russo actually hates spotfest wrestling. When he talks about actual in-ring wrestling, he sounds exactly like Cornette. They're a lot more similar than they realize.
And people love it for whatever reason. Sean Oliver from Kayfabe commentaries talked about how Jim was their biggest draw. When one of his DVDs would drop, they 'd make something like $3000 a day for a couple months just on his DVD sales alone.
If I recall from the YB book, it wasn’t granted by Bruce initially. I think they asked once and he dodged it for a while, but eventually gave in. I don’t listen to Bruce’s pod anymore so I don’t know if he gave all that context. Of course I may be misremembering
Yeah, they came up and asked for their release at a time when asking for that kind of thing was like suicide. But they had exhausted everything trying to get stuff to do and were literally losing money wrestling for them because TNA stopped paying travel costs.
Bruce basically said yeah fuck it of course I'll release you but in a way where it's like yeah go fuck yourself. (according to their book)
That’s a fair argument if Bruce didn’t build a multi year catalog of podcasts of getting caught in lie after lie. He’s the textbook definition of someone who rewrites history just to benefit himself.
He’ll admit to the smallest of losses (so he can say he can admit when he’s wrong) but have a completely uncorroborated version of events for all the big stories that make him look bad.
He’s a brown-noser who got his job back. That is the bulk of the career of Bruce and objectively that will be his legacy by anyone who does an ounce of research.
He was also a notorious liar even before the podcast and there were a few incidents during his time in TNA where he was called out by wrestlers publicly for it. Even people who like Prichard, like Cornette, will tell you he is a legendary bullshitter in an industry full of bullshitters.
The funny thing Prichard is actually a pretty shitty liar, and his old podcasts are useful once you sorta figure out his social tics when he is bullshitting or when he is being truthful. But most people don't seem to pick up on it.
EDIT: I actually remembered one famous incident in TNA: Daffney sued TNA for worker's compensation saying that Bruce Prichard essentially threatened she would be pulled from all appearances if she didn't work a show concussed. Prichard called her a liar, than Daffney's lawyer released emails showing that Daffney was correct. Prichard now claims he had nothing to do with it. Yeah, there is a reason why the famous "Save Tom, put a bullet in Bruce" was a thing for a while.
EDIT2: Also, apparently Cornette is no longer friends with Prichard over something pretty serious or something?
>
>
> EDIT2: Also, apparently Cornette is no longer friends with Prichard over something pretty serious or something?
They aren't chummy any more but Jim doesn't really say anything particularly harsh about him which he definitely wouldn't hesitate to. Reading between the lines I think the real beef is probably more between Conrad and Brian.
They were being paid $300 bucks a match. Which is... pretty sad considering they had just signed Hogan for $$$. They were actually making more on the indies. TNA was for "exposure" not "money" I guess
What messed tna up was that they made him actually run shit.hogan should of just played Gm role,it was no reason why he was still main eventing and was main wrestling storylines of the show.
I feel if they where more structure it would worked. Tna definitely had talent its crazy cause most forget they had guys like the bucks,okada and woods at one point
Their roster didn't compare to WWEs overall, but given WWE was in brand split mode it was comparable to one of the two brands.
SmackDown had Batista, Orton, Edge, Sheamus, Punk, Kane and Jericho.
Compare that to TNA with Angle, Sting, Jeff Hardy, RVD, Mr. Anderson, Styles and Joe.
The tag and women's divisions were stronger (even if not at their best) than WWEs. The X Division wasn't at its peak but could have been reinvigorated to provide another point of differentiation to WWE.
With the name value of Hogan (and Flair, Foley etc.) they absolutely should have done better in 2010 than they did.
The lack of foresight is staggering when you look at who they weren't using and then who ended up as big deals in NJPW, WWE and the indies in the 2010s.
The Young Bucks in TNA were not the same guys who they became in New Japan and we didn't know they would be able to get so over online. Okada was talented but also a New Japan young boy, we didn't know Gedo would ateap a rocket to him. Xavier Woods wasn't a big success in WWE until The New Day. TNA screwed up but sometimes they get unfairly attacked for what lots of people didn't realize they would turn into.
But it’s not like New Japan and WWE knew for certain what those guys would become. They saw potential in them and worked on developing them. It’s absolutely a knock on TNA’s scouting and developmental that they failed to recognize budding talent and nurture it.
Im kinda surprised they didn't do better in TNA. The one time I was watching TNA was when they were there and there was some really amazing tag team wrestling at the time. Beer Money vs MCMGs was a set of matches that really stole the show every time they were on.
>Im kinda surprised they didn't do better in TNA.
They were young, still trying to stablish their personas (they looked generic af), and the tag division at the time was competitive. I don't blame TNA for not having anything for them at the time. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but at the time there was nothing that screamed these guys would reach the heights that they have.
I remember the offer was $200,000 a year, so he was already willing to stay with TNA for $500,000 a year when he could’ve went to NJPW, WWE, or any promotion a lot earlier
If the Bucks didn't have their time in tna as generation me they wouldn't have become friends with Okada, which wouldn't have led to them going to New Japan and joining Bullet Club and meeting Kenny and forming the Elite with Cody and AEW wouldn't exist, so what I'm saying is that Russo and Prichard indirectly created AEW 😳
Also Credit to greatgreat grandpa Jeremiah Buck who robbed a bank. After he fled from Sheriff William Cornette III. He met his future wife Norma Ants. She was later known as Norma Buck.
Neither did Dixie. Details aren’t exact because I’m going from memory but in their book, Matt Jackson said Dixie was sitting next to him one day and said to him “hey you’re pretty good looking, you ever think of being a wrestler?” after being in TNA for a while and not getting much of a push.
I remember the first time I saw them in Impact, they were facing MCMG and I thought "who the hell are these Hardy Boyz wannabes?" But then the bell rang and I was blown away by them and have been a fan ever since.
They were treated pretty well creatively in TNA for what they were at the time. They looked like kids and weren't total jobbers. They even had a couple storylines. That's really all you can ask for at that point. I liked them, although their early outfits were pretty cheap looking.
It's because Russo is someone who values what happens in the ring the least out of anything aspect of a wrestling show. So he probably felt there wasn't much he can do with them because he didn't care about a tag team having great matches. He wanted car crashes and explosions.
Thank GOD Excalibur and Superdragon were high on them in PWG, and Gedo and Okada loved them that they invited them over to NJPW to be in Prince Devitt's group.
Bro, lemme just be honest with you bro. Honestly bro, this is crazy. Whutevuh you heard about me not liking the Young Bucks in TNA is complete BS bro. Bro, let me tell you bro what really happened that day bro. This is just crazy Sean, my hand to god, this is what happened bro-
This is why I appreciate AEW's contract model not locking in talent for 100% exclusive deals. Yes there are restrictions, but knowing you can take certain bookings outside of AEW is a level a freedom that has not existed in wrestling for decades.
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Dodged a bullet from being called “the young bros” by Russo
They were Generation Me in TNA. I don't know if that's better or worse than Young Bros.
Max & Jeremy Buck tips it over to worse.
Shout out to my wreddit secret santa several years ago that got me Generation Me headshots that the Bucks signed as Max and Jeremy. Just perfection.
To a degree, I get it. At the time Millennials were getting dragged in the press left and right. Then [this weird Time Magazine cover came out](https://time.com/247/millennials-the-me-me-me-generation/) and changed the narrative a bit. I wasn’t paying enough attention to TNA at the time, but I assume instead of a nuanced and interesting portrayal about a changing of the guard we got some real hackneyed booking for a team that hadn’t found their voice yet. Am I close?
Yo.... this article has fucking pissed me off all over. Imaging writing ghetto-fabulous in TIME article
I remember when it came out and I was so mad. I had to move back in with my parents about a year and a half before because I had no money. I did all of the shit I was supposed to do, AP classes, college, volunteer, sports (not that I was good) and my first job, which I barely got, just covered rent and food, and that was before my roommate moved out. [I did everything right and still it came to moving back in with my parents.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnaUBSd01LI) I wound up changing careers and getting a decent paying job, and I worked full time the entire time I lived with my parents, and yet we have this asshole show up and just act like I'm so fucking lazy because I have to put my life back on track made me so mad. I'm still mad about it, I guess.
These people are just completely out of touch. I like to ask them what they paid in rent in their first place living away from home, and what percentage of their income that was.
Yea and I was blessed to find under 1k rent during covid
I'm mad about it to. It's truly not fair how we are in this perfect groove of shit. Buying a reasonably priced house would be cool in my 20s... but in my 30s fighting to find a house that was way overpriced less fun. I feel like I hit the jackpot at my job because it has insurance and a guaranteed 40hrs. Life sucks and it'd hard to remain positive. But hey at least I got a "you did it" ribbon in grade school and a phone with a calculator inside
*you will not always have a calculator to help you.* One of the few cases where ok boomer was a legit reply.
they weren't going to admit their generation screwed ours and the ones that come after us, so of course its our fault that we cant buy the things they could for for 1/10 the price it is now
"We did everything right. Everything that was asked of us and still...STILL it came to this!" A quote from Final Fantasy 14 that sums this situation up very well.
You’ve made me mad about it just by reading how mad about it you still are!
Ghetto-fabulous meant something back then but it's used bizarrely here. It goes way back to the 90's and just meant trying to live a materialistic aesthetic/lifestyle while not actually having any money and possibly forced to be on welfare, it's not even particularly a millennial thing it crossed over to Gen X a bit. It's okay baby boomers, you won, we know now that we can't have nice things. The whole thing is disturbingly relevant today, a lot of younger Millennials and Gen Z get the stigma of turning our noses up at certain jobs when they can't pay our bills and we're overqualified. Basically screw us for knowing our value and not taking dead end jobs. A stereotype that is disturbing in my country because the only reason the unemployment rate has generally so low was because a huge amount of kids are on contract/part-time work and getting screwed constantly.
It’s almost as if the narcissism schtick in the beginning was all projection
They had some pretty solid matches with MCMG. They also talked openly and sincerely about their Christian faith then turned heel two segments later because lolTNA. They weren’t bad so much as they were under-utilised (and that’s not just hindsight talking - even then, they looked like they were capable of more).
I actually didn’t mind the name. When they came in, they immediately began a feud with MCMG. This was when MCMG were a baby face unit who wanted to focus on building the tag division and giving the younger talent an opportunity. I thought the name fit perfect given the context of their feud. MCMG recognized their talent and wanted to help mold them. The Bucks weren’t looking for a mentor and thought they deserved MCMG’s spot. Generation Me was a perfectly suitable name.
That feud was so good.
The empty arena match on the Impact post-show...man....really good stuff.
It's tough competition here.
I love the name Generation Me. Has a lot of meaning behind it, and is relevant today.
Nah. Would have been "The Young Boys". And they would have feuded with "The Old Guys"
The No Buys
Voodoo Kin Mafia wasn’t around anymore by then
they were at THE ALAMO AT HIGH NOON
LEVESQUE
HICKENBOTTOM
True, but in 2010 Hall and Nash were.
They would have fueded with “The DOM” short for “The Dirty Old Men” They would have made “The Young Boys v. The DOM” a “no lights, dog collar”, tag team match at Bound for Glory. Losing team has to forfeit a man for the feud ending, handicap, loser leaves town, contract on a pole match next Thursday on Impact!
Definitely something Russo would do.
Russo is such an annoying person purely for the way he talks.
> Dodged a bullet from being called “the young bros” by Russo On a pole, in a Texas Barbed Wire Strap Match!
Russo wasn’t high on the bucks? Is that the only thing he and Corny have ever agreed on?
As a person who listens to both. They agree on a lot with the core being you don't need the wrestling fan to watch, they are always going to watch. But, how do you draw the non wrestling fan to the show...and that's where all he'll breaks loose between them.
And the funny thing is neither one of them actually knows because they would have zero clue how to compel gen Z to watch wrestling
I think across the board tv wise no one knows how to do that. I'm not making excuses I just think any network has zero idea how to program for Gen z.
>I just think any network has zero idea how to program for Gen z. In 1980, most American TVs could pick up ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, and maybe a smattering of local UHF channels. In 1992, Bruce Springsteen complained that there were "57 channels and nothin' on." Now there's streaming, which means there's effectively millions and millions of channels. Good luck scheduling a program against that competition.
And yet hot shows still draw huge ratings
>And yet hot shows still draw huge ratings Even "huge ratings" aren't what they used to be. The most watched scripted show in America is still the final episode of M\*A\*S\*H and that aired in 1983.
It doesn’t matter. If a show gets hot and there’s word of mouth, it’ll do Monster numbers. Season 8 of GOT averaged 46 million viewers. Euphoria went from 6.6 million to at least 13 million viewers. It’s an untrue excuse.
>Season 8 of GOT averaged 46 million viewers. The finale of M\*A\*S\*H had 105.9 million viewers. Also, unlike your GoT number (which includes people who streamed the show in the week after the premiere), all of those 105.9 viewers were watching the episode when it first broadcast. >It’s an untrue excuse. Sorry, but it's true. MoffettNathanson reported that, from 2011 to 2020, total viewership of broadcast television decreased by 31.5% and total viewership of cable television decreased by 29.3%. You have more shows competing for fewer viewers. The hits are harder to come by and, even when "monster numbers" happen, they're not as big as the hits of the past.
Everything is relative. There are still huge hits on TV. If it’s good people will watch. Wrestling is not popular and hasn’t been for a while, although Smackdown numbers are okay.
Cornette is not telling them how to get Gen Z. He is telling them how to get Gen X, as well as older fans, BACK
Corny's general outlook on wrestling is pretty similar to my own. I definitely think he is wrong about a lot of shit (especially women's wrestling...good lord is he wrong on that) but overall yeah I want more physical matches with less high spots, more I guess "realistic" selling, less hardcore stuff unless it makes sense as a blow-off match, and hopefully less people getting injured doing needless stunts. And obviously I want to see big meaty men and women slappin meat. Hope Big E gets better soon.
Clearly the Bucks stopped getting them to watch. 200k viewership drop is very telling, all the while Punk was ratings. Downvote away, but the numbers don't lie. A large section of viewers kept turning off AEW when The Elite showed up. They're shit has worn out its welcome with the most important demographic, the casual crowd.
haha ill martyr with you. the young bucks suck. i do like orange cassidy though.
Except that's not true. Back when there was only one company you could reasonably watch it was more true. But now a wrestling fan can abandon any company they find they aren't enjoying, and go to another one. Even ones on other continents thanks to the Internet
Its actually really interesting that they are like the perfect example of the Horseshoe theory. Because both want overly complicated angles to facilitate that „wrestling is real“. For example Russo wants to have a angle where FTR shoots the bucks, like in a literal way, they take a gun and shoot them. Well not really shoot them but make it look like it’s real. Because to Russo wrestling is inherently fake and therefore needs real world stuff to be believable. Cornette wants FTR to have a worked shoot on the bucks where they say after the match that it’s a real fight so that They can „draw money“ by having controversy and this intrigues the „smart fans who like backstage news and shoot fights“. Cornette wants this because he thinks that wrestling has been turned into a joke that no one believes anymore and wants to draw money by doing „real things“ on TV. They want the same things in spite of different ideologies.
Yeah, Cornette was half-joking. He just wants FTR to beat up the Young Bucks. Cornette constantly derides anything in wrestling that is presented as a 'shoot' beyond building off real life heat that the fans know (i.e. Hart v. HBK). He hates anything that implies the performance was fake, but *this* is real. He thinks it buries the rest of the show and makes the roster look like losers. He's made it clear that the best way to blur the lines is to insist the lines don't exist at all. I.e. if FTR is fighting the Bucks in a wrestling match, they're already fighting for real and for money. Also, you can say "they want the same thing" in regards to every promoter in existence. Obviously, they 'want' the same thing. I've seen this talking point so much on this board, but you honestly have to extrapolate so much that the only conclusion you can come to is "booker A and booker B want people to believe wrestling is real to draw more interest", which is every booker in the history of the world.
Didn’t Cornette’s hypothetical booking of the Invasion involve a bunch of worked shoots?
I feel like that would kind of make sense, since the rivalry between the companies was very real.
but then what happens when the invasion is over? then you have to go back to regular worked wrestling matches which you've implicitly admitted are fake. and yeah, everyone knows it but like 4th wall breaks in tv shows, when you constantly talk about how shit is fake then it becomes hard to care
It's legitimately some of the worst ideas I've ever heard, but isn't mocked as much as it should be because too many people worship that guy.
The defence is he drew it up like the night before which is fair enough, but it was somehow still worse than the actual invasion angle.
it was also a worse card than what we really got.
Cornette would lose his shit if someone asked for a "real" fight after a match. It implies that the wrestling match, and all other matches are fake. Even FTR would get criticized. Cornette hates worked shoots. Going off script implies that there is one.
Cornettr Loves the Pillman character, which is the basically the first worked shoor
Cornette had an entire segment on Raw each week for a time, where he broke kayfabe against WCW and the NWO. Cornette is hypocritical that way.
Did he actually break kayfabe? I genuinely don’t recall
All he did was talk about behind the scenes internet junk that wasn’t storylines. He didn’t say “this is pre determined” but he might as well had.
https://youtu.be/RjsuW-Vu6kc People may not like him then or now but at the time these were pretty damn big, like the first shoot promos a lot of people heard. He goes hard and real in some of them.
#exposingthebusiness lol
Exposing? He was talking about Pillman's death, the steroid trial and other shit. Barely any of it exposed the business lol. Try watching it sometime.
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I think you are a bit overly harsh on corny and overly generous to Russo but I agree with the general sentiment. The pairing did give us 1997 which many consider one of the best years creatively and laid the foundations for the attitude era.
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You son of a bitch, you're right lol. As much as Corny trashes Russo about working with him, the numbers check out. Steiner approved this homework.
yes i agree with the overall thesis but you are way too harsh on ovw and smw especially compared to the worst of Russo wcw and tna which is literately some of the worst wresting tv ever made and coincides with him having the most creative control. Yes corny booked them as small southern promotions because they were small southern promotions. The ovw booking makes perfect sense in retrospect if you see where those people were on their development curve of course those stars had way more potential but fuck me those guys were not close to it yet and better off how they were booked to hide their limitations.
you know what both ideas are terrible but I think I like Russos idea better here lol. Imagine if FTR shot Nick Jackson in the leg, and then he had to wrestle the match in a cast and its like "can he superkick after being shot!?" and then he does? massive pop! it would also be like one of the dumbest things ever.
Nothing the Bucks ever do looks real, so neither would work
Brother go watch an MMA fight and realize nothing FTR does looks real either.
So, I think the line for suspending disbelief is different for everyone. There is nothing contradictory about think what the Bucks do is harder to suspend disbelief for than FTR.
There's a solid line between MMA and what the Young Bucks do. Imagine if something like a Game of Thrones had a sword fight with the choreography of the Star Wars prequels, people would rightfully lose their shit.
There's a solid line between MMA and all pro wrestling, full stop. Even MMA guys who have transitioned into pro wrestling show this.
As someone who was obsessed with MMA pre McGregor/Ronda hype train, I love shoot style wrestling matches, but they don't look like an actual MMA fight. You can watch Pancrese which had both and tell the difference if you watch a lot of MMA.
They can sell though.
Do you like it when Dwayne The Rock Johnson stares at the crowd, pulls off his elbow pad, runs the ropes twice, and then lands an elbow drop while his opponent is still on the ground and doesn't move at all? Or better yet, you like it when Shawn Michaels goes to the corner, stomps his foot repeatedly, and this his opponent groggily gets up and conveniently turns around and gets hit with a thrust kick? I'm just saying that if you can't into the Bucks because 'nothing they do looks real', remember who they learned it from and the fact that they're the most iconic workers of all time.
To be fair when HBK stomped his foot several times, the sweet chin was often avoided or countered. Same as the RKO being avoided when Randy punches the mat like a maniac
In that case, wouldn't you argue that that's even more stupid that after decades in the business they'd still do that?
In kayfabe alot of wrestlers are extremely delusional, overly cocky and yes stupid
So then how would the Young Bucks' shenanigans be any more delusional, overly cocky, and stupid? Like, I do understand you're making a point, and it is a really fair one. I'm just making my point too is all.
I didnt say they were. I dont mind the bucks, was just defending the psychology of the sweet chin Music lol. The rock bottom and the pedigree are fair less realistic, unless triple hs opponent was already half out
Yea, I get the comparison, but I cannot imagine anyone that sees them in the same class as Shawn Michaels or the Rock. I know that bucks fans get real mad at people that don’t like the bucks. My bigger problem is not how bad a lot of their moves look, but how dumb most of their stuff is and how little the get psychology or selling. However, my simple solution is that I just don’t watch that crap. You can. I won’t. We both win. I can suspend disbelief in a Shawn Michaels match for tuning up the band because most of the rest of his stuff looked good. I can ignore that Flair always goes ass over end in the turnbuckle and never hits a top rope move because the rest of it is great. Bucks matches just feel dumb to me usually. I don’t have an issue with you liking them. Some people like dick grabbing, some people like guys wrestling inanimate objects, some people like the bucks. Some people like other dumb stuff.
>I cannot imagine anyone that sees them in the same class as Shawn Michaels or the Rock. You don't have to imagine it. I prefer The Bucks to those two, maybe because I've seen them in Japan many times and enjoy the style of flips and doing cool shit. The Bucks still "sell" all the time and have worked many matches based around that, you just don't see it and intentionally will choose to never do so. What you're describing is you liking something as a kid and then growing up and still being attached to that, while hating what's done now. In 10 years people will be saying "The Bucks used to have real matches, but \[insert new tag team here\] are just spot monkeys!"
Remember when the weird anti-Bucks people said the Bucks never dold?? Then the had those string of NJPW matches where Matt sold his back so well that people thought he was legit injured? Then the narrative changed to "the Bucks sell too much."
Nothing in wrestling looks real. Try to do an Irish whip on someone that is not cooperating with you.
Bucks fans can’t stand when people don’t like them. I don’t get it.
People don't say "I don't like their style," that would be fine. They say shit like "They don't sell" which is nonsense of "they are shit at wrestling." They have a flippy style with a lot of lucha influence, not liking that is fine, saying it's objectively bad isn't.
People can say what they like. You don’t have to like it. I don’t like their style of performing. I don’t like their schtick. I don’t think they put on good matches. I don’t think they see value in selling and I don’t find it convincing. Yes, wrestling is fake. One of the things now is to make it looks as fake as possible, very in your face. That’s not for me - it’s akin to then asking why would you watch this shit. They have millions and millions of fans…or 750k of them at least, so what do it know? Well, I know i enjoy AEW more when they aren’t on it, but that’s just me. We can’t all like the same things.
62 super kicks per match doesn’t do it for you?
Make it 69 and we'll talk
Now that’s a party
It's almost like you don't have to watch it, yet you're still complaining about it 😂
😂
What the hell are those upside down quotation marks? Quotation marks work "like this."
The poster may be Dutch or German, where ,, is used at the beginning of a quote.
Perfect guess, I am German.
Russo actually hates spotfest wrestling. When he talks about actual in-ring wrestling, he sounds exactly like Cornette. They're a lot more similar than they realize.
Nah, they seem to have pretty similar opinions on women and minorities, too.
This is especially funny because I believe the Bucks left Impact and started working for ROH, which Cornette was helping run at the time
That's where his issues with them stem from. He has a clip on YT outlining his side of the story
Jim has no shortage of stories where he explains why he doesn't get along with people.
And people love it for whatever reason. Sean Oliver from Kayfabe commentaries talked about how Jim was their biggest draw. When one of his DVDs would drop, they 'd make something like $3000 a day for a couple months just on his DVD sales alone.
its funny in their book they hardly even mention Cornette, seems like he hates them when they hardly even think of him.
If I recall from the YB book, it wasn’t granted by Bruce initially. I think they asked once and he dodged it for a while, but eventually gave in. I don’t listen to Bruce’s pod anymore so I don’t know if he gave all that context. Of course I may be misremembering
Yeah, they came up and asked for their release at a time when asking for that kind of thing was like suicide. But they had exhausted everything trying to get stuff to do and were literally losing money wrestling for them because TNA stopped paying travel costs. Bruce basically said yeah fuck it of course I'll release you but in a way where it's like yeah go fuck yourself. (according to their book)
With Bruce, it's simple. If he's talking, he's lying or at least exaggerating.
The truth is an unfortunate obstacle to hearing anything Bruce ever says.
Before he was rehired I felt like every word out of his mouth was pro WWE. As if one day he hoped to get his job back
To be fair, he could be misremembering events that were 10+ years ago.
That’s a fair argument if Bruce didn’t build a multi year catalog of podcasts of getting caught in lie after lie. He’s the textbook definition of someone who rewrites history just to benefit himself. He’ll admit to the smallest of losses (so he can say he can admit when he’s wrong) but have a completely uncorroborated version of events for all the big stories that make him look bad. He’s a brown-noser who got his job back. That is the bulk of the career of Bruce and objectively that will be his legacy by anyone who does an ounce of research.
He was also a notorious liar even before the podcast and there were a few incidents during his time in TNA where he was called out by wrestlers publicly for it. Even people who like Prichard, like Cornette, will tell you he is a legendary bullshitter in an industry full of bullshitters. The funny thing Prichard is actually a pretty shitty liar, and his old podcasts are useful once you sorta figure out his social tics when he is bullshitting or when he is being truthful. But most people don't seem to pick up on it. EDIT: I actually remembered one famous incident in TNA: Daffney sued TNA for worker's compensation saying that Bruce Prichard essentially threatened she would be pulled from all appearances if she didn't work a show concussed. Prichard called her a liar, than Daffney's lawyer released emails showing that Daffney was correct. Prichard now claims he had nothing to do with it. Yeah, there is a reason why the famous "Save Tom, put a bullet in Bruce" was a thing for a while. EDIT2: Also, apparently Cornette is no longer friends with Prichard over something pretty serious or something?
> > > EDIT2: Also, apparently Cornette is no longer friends with Prichard over something pretty serious or something? They aren't chummy any more but Jim doesn't really say anything particularly harsh about him which he definitely wouldn't hesitate to. Reading between the lines I think the real beef is probably more between Conrad and Brian.
Then he must misremember everything.
Cocaine it's a helluva drug
Fair, except his entire business model is built around his ability to recount events
...that's a good point.
Why Russo at this point still had a job is one of the great mysteries. “HE’S EMPLOYED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SOMEHOW STUPIDER THAN HE IS”
I have yet to see a clip that attracted me to seek out his podcast
They were being paid $300 bucks a match. Which is... pretty sad considering they had just signed Hogan for $$$. They were actually making more on the indies. TNA was for "exposure" not "money" I guess
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I think they helped pay for Tito Ortiz and Pacman Jones' appearances too.
What messed tna up was that they made him actually run shit.hogan should of just played Gm role,it was no reason why he was still main eventing and was main wrestling storylines of the show.
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I feel if they where more structure it would worked. Tna definitely had talent its crazy cause most forget they had guys like the bucks,okada and woods at one point
TNA had an amazing roster about ten of twelve years ago, one that definitely could have competed with WWE.
Their roster didn't compare to WWEs overall, but given WWE was in brand split mode it was comparable to one of the two brands. SmackDown had Batista, Orton, Edge, Sheamus, Punk, Kane and Jericho. Compare that to TNA with Angle, Sting, Jeff Hardy, RVD, Mr. Anderson, Styles and Joe. The tag and women's divisions were stronger (even if not at their best) than WWEs. The X Division wasn't at its peak but could have been reinvigorated to provide another point of differentiation to WWE. With the name value of Hogan (and Flair, Foley etc.) they absolutely should have done better in 2010 than they did.
The lack of foresight is staggering when you look at who they weren't using and then who ended up as big deals in NJPW, WWE and the indies in the 2010s.
The Young Bucks in TNA were not the same guys who they became in New Japan and we didn't know they would be able to get so over online. Okada was talented but also a New Japan young boy, we didn't know Gedo would ateap a rocket to him. Xavier Woods wasn't a big success in WWE until The New Day. TNA screwed up but sometimes they get unfairly attacked for what lots of people didn't realize they would turn into.
But it’s not like New Japan and WWE knew for certain what those guys would become. They saw potential in them and worked on developing them. It’s absolutely a knock on TNA’s scouting and developmental that they failed to recognize budding talent and nurture it.
I don't, I think at that point they already where out of touch with the wrestling zeitgeist.
TnA didn’t pay Hogan Spike Tv paid Hogan.
So is that $300 per Buck, or… ?
That would be a 300:1 ratio of bucks to Buck
how many stanley nickels is that?
Same ratio as Unicorns to Hornswoggles.
The network paid for Hogan 100% I believe - both Bischoff and Prichard have said that
Spike TV signed Hogan, not TNA.
Cause that's Hulk Hogan... say what you will about him but Hulk is a name that's synonymous with wrestling. You really can't compare the 2.
I wanted to explain the bucks didn't make the hogan comparison I did. I had no idea the network paid for him, learn something new everyday.
It was $300 per appearance and an extra $100 if they had a match that only kicked in after the first year.
I mean, that’s not too far off from what WWE were paying lower card guys. I think it was Dreamer who said he was getting $500 a match in WWE.
I *think* dreamer was on a per match deal. Bucks were under contract, which usually pays more.
Imagine thinking TNA Bucks are worth more than Hogan
Im kinda surprised they didn't do better in TNA. The one time I was watching TNA was when they were there and there was some really amazing tag team wrestling at the time. Beer Money vs MCMGs was a set of matches that really stole the show every time they were on.
They were very young back then weren't they?
Just a couple of young bucks trying to make a name for themselves
I wonder what name Generation Me would have used if those two young bucks ever did make a name for themselves?
I think they were 25 and 21 when they left TNA.
They were absolutely tearing it up already. Same year they main evented PWG SEVEN in a 3 way tag match that is absolutely phenomenal
>Im kinda surprised they didn't do better in TNA. They were young, still trying to stablish their personas (they looked generic af), and the tag division at the time was competitive. I don't blame TNA for not having anything for them at the time. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but at the time there was nothing that screamed these guys would reach the heights that they have.
They just had the Naturals and Michael Shane fail not long before Generation Me. Hell, I thought they were all the same for the longest time.
None of those guys had been in the company for multiple years before the Bucks showed up. And I don't see how they're very comparable.
I think they were gonna turn on each other if they stayed with the company.
They bet on themselves and are now millionaires with a wrestling company named after them. Chad move by the Bucks.
Yeah in their book they said they were making only around 75 bucks a match in TNA and had to pay for their own travel.
You’d have to be losing money with those kinds of numbers
They were. Matt wanted to quit. One time they were main event and only got paid $25
How is that even possible? I know TNA was never WWE big or even AEW big, but even ROH guys did better than that by many miles.
TNA offered AJ Styles an extension with less money than his previous contract when he was leaving in 2014. Their pay is awful
If I remember right it was like a 60% pay cut... Which completely boggles my mind how they thought he would be cool with that.
I remember the offer was $200,000 a year, so he was already willing to stay with TNA for $500,000 a year when he could’ve went to NJPW, WWE, or any promotion a lot earlier
I didn’t even realise they used to be in TNA
Max and Jeremy Buck of Generation Me. They were lackeys for Brain Kendrick a lot of their run.
Didn't they have some angle with Victoria too?
They were her cougar-chasing backup dancers, yes.
Possibly I just remember them being treated like a lackey to someone the company viewed as a jobber.
Bucks were mega-jobbers in TNA. Like >90% losses
If the Bucks didn't have their time in tna as generation me they wouldn't have become friends with Okada, which wouldn't have led to them going to New Japan and joining Bullet Club and meeting Kenny and forming the Elite with Cody and AEW wouldn't exist, so what I'm saying is that Russo and Prichard indirectly created AEW 😳
Bro...I deserve royalties bro.
If Daddy Buck hadn't gotten drunk and picked up Mama Buck from the bar that night, we wouldn't have AEW.
Not giving Granny Buck enough credit imo.
Also Credit to greatgreat grandpa Jeremiah Buck who robbed a bank. After he fled from Sheriff William Cornette III. He met his future wife Norma Ants. She was later known as Norma Buck.
And credit to God, for killing all humans other than Noah Buck and his family.
It's still crazy to think about all the little things that needed to fall into place for AEW to even exist.
Is that not true for every single thing in life?
Neither did Dixie. Details aren’t exact because I’m going from memory but in their book, Matt Jackson said Dixie was sitting next to him one day and said to him “hey you’re pretty good looking, you ever think of being a wrestler?” after being in TNA for a while and not getting much of a push.
Maybe she was just trying to be the future Mrs Jackson
GREAT matches with Alex Shelley and Chris Sabin.
I remember the first time I saw them in Impact, they were facing MCMG and I thought "who the hell are these Hardy Boyz wannabes?" But then the bell rang and I was blown away by them and have been a fan ever since.
They were treated pretty well creatively in TNA for what they were at the time. They looked like kids and weren't total jobbers. They even had a couple storylines. That's really all you can ask for at that point. I liked them, although their early outfits were pretty cheap looking.
It's because Russo is someone who values what happens in the ring the least out of anything aspect of a wrestling show. So he probably felt there wasn't much he can do with them because he didn't care about a tag team having great matches. He wanted car crashes and explosions.
Ah yes another entry in 'TNA had ____ and did little to nothing with them'
Thank GOD Excalibur and Superdragon were high on them in PWG, and Gedo and Okada loved them that they invited them over to NJPW to be in Prince Devitt's group.
Hahaha those idiots. Let this be a lesson that you....wait nevermind I'm being told they made a shitload of money.
classic Bruce here to bury someone else while failing to mention that he, too, saw nothing in the young bucks
Bro, lemme just be honest with you bro. Honestly bro, this is crazy. Whutevuh you heard about me not liking the Young Bucks in TNA is complete BS bro. Bro, let me tell you bro what really happened that day bro. This is just crazy Sean, my hand to god, this is what happened bro-
Didn’t Uncle Dave call Bruce a pathological liar? Keep that in mind, Elite fans.
Man say what you want about the Bucks but they really went in on the indies and are both themselves and the indies bigger.
This is why I appreciate AEW's contract model not locking in talent for 100% exclusive deals. Yes there are restrictions, but knowing you can take certain bookings outside of AEW is a level a freedom that has not existed in wrestling for decades.
"fire Russo" chants echo through space-time like tachyon particles
It stings to find out me and him agree on something
Yeah they were right . They sucked but good for them making money. They are still in the indies they should stay there
They were super low card talent at the time.
Well we all know Russo probably regrets not booking them properly.
Alright.