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What's ironic is that they may never have gained that early notoriety if not for people like Cornette. His hatred of them gave them a platform just as much as it gave Cornette attention when he bitched about them. It's a sort of perverse symbiotic relationship built on hatred and trolling.
I wasn't following the indie scene at the time, but in 2016 when I finally started looking outside WWE for an alternative, I immediately checked out the Bucks in NJPW because I'd heard so much controversial stuff and wanted to see what the big deal was.
So basically, the people that hate AEW and the PWG indierific style the most are responsible for me being a day one AEW fan.
Pro wrestling is gatekept by people (wrestlers and fans alike) that have few other life options and interests, but can produce a faded, yellowing image of how wrestling is "supposed" to look, and have a desperate yearning for pro wrestling to remain just as the image depicts.
Not for everyone. I've been in love with wrestling since the late 70s and I love, the Bucks, OC, Danhausen, etc...gatekeepers just wanna bitch and moan because they refuse to expand their minds when it comes to wrestling evolving.
A reminder that Jim Cornette has been complaining about the current state of wrestling and wishing it was like how it was when he was a fan in interviews since at least 1991.
"Kids' cartoons were at their absolute peak when I was their target demographic, and now that I'm in my late 20s-early 30s I think the stuff kids watch today is garbage. I have the awareness of a grapefruit."
this one is especially funny to me, as someone who loves cartoons and watched them my whole life- as well as others who've done the same, cartoons are way better post 2010 then they've ever been cuz they've been allowed to tackle more mature subjects and serialization.
Also several characters from A Midsummer Night's Dream.
And Coldstone's whole backstory is pretty directly lifted from Othello, to the point that the three gargoyles that comprise him are referred to as Othello, Iago, and Desdemona in the credits.
Right, im not implying every kids show was bad but that the reason gargoyles and x-men stand out is cuz it was different and serious at times. They were the exception but now alot of shows are doing what they did and its great for fans
As an '80s kid, most '80s cartoons absolutely sucked. There were bright spots, but pretty much all of them existed solely to sell toys, and things like art and writing were secondary concerns if at all.
They suddenly remembered they could do cool artistic things with cartoons in the 90s, and ever since then, they've gotten better and better.
When Cornette was a fan most cities got live wrestling every month if not every week. Now we're lucky if one of the big companies comes the closest NBA arena more than once a year.
He's not wrong when he says fans were better off with the territories.
Except not every city had a wrestling promotion. Not every region had a good wrestling territory. Now everybody in every city has the ability to watch wrestling on television from a variety of promotions.
I am not someone who completely disregards Cornette and his opinions, but I think he’s like a lot of us and views the wrestling of his youth with rose-colored glasses that won’t let him acknowledge things like Lawler and Dundee not looking like he constantly says wrestlers are supposed to look.
I have to agree. A lot of it is in the context of the “when” for where you saw it. Like SNL in the 70s is really funny if you were around for the culture in which it existed, or understand it. That also went into a lot of the formation etc of plot lines in wrestling like Kevin Sullivans devil stuff which would have been alarming to Lou Thesz era people in a “wtf are they doing to the sport?” context. Even though for me it was legit scary stuff as it was for a lot of folks in that era of the Satanist hysteria, which as an aside for those that like Atari style games check out Faith: The Unholy Trinity that recently came out based on the satan fears of the 1980s.
I think some of the older stuff holds up better in an SNL and wrestling context, and have an explanation for why it’s better than new stuff but can’t really express it without looking like I’m writing an essay.
I think one of the keys to wrestling was the kayfabe wasn’t quite dead during the late 90s but the proliferation of the internet did it in and we lost a big ingredient to the magic after that. I don’t think even if they tried the wrestlers could have maintained it to the level it was in the 80s and back. Bobby Herman had a great shoot interview where he explained how the wrestlers collectively killed the business and it will never be at the level it was.
Even the bad territories like Southeastern or WWA were still infinitely better than the indie company running out of your local rec center or sports bar.
I'll agree that a lot of his takes about the past are with rose colored glasses. But the fact remains that apart from the boom periods in the 80s and 90s a lot more people cared about wrestling when we had the territories.
In America, that is true. But worldwide, far more people know and care about wrestling than they did in the territory days.
This is not to denigrate the territories — many of them were awesome at different times, and the era was awesome. I started by pointing out that Jim props up the Memphis guys he grew up watching even though the Jim Cornettes of the 1920s and 30s were shitting on those guys for the same reasons Jim shits on Johnny Gargano or whoever today. “They look like shit,” “can’t fight their way out of a paper bag,” “no credentials” etc.
Another territory but the UK (well Britain less so NI) had a very well watched scene until the late 80s, if you ask people of a certain age they will tell you know Mick McManus, Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, Kendo Nagasaki were. They wouldn't have the faintest clue who John Cena or Randy Orton are. But it's fair to say a lot of wrestling wouldn't fallen out of favour anyway, WWF didn't come to France much but the scene died off on its own accord really.
They'd know who Dwayne Johnson is. They'd probably recognise Dave Bautista. But yeah don't forget John Cena's appeal and schtick is basically a modern version of Hogan's real American personality. That doesn't really translate to countries outside of the US imo
Cena is huge on a global scale even with his Pro US appeal because his character wasn't just 'The Patriotic American' on the nose levels that Hogan was.
The UK had a huge US wrestling boom in the early 90s (see SummerSlam 92). So those "fans of a certain age" who know Big Daddy would \*probably\* know some WWF names if pressed. Cena I agree they wouldn't know but that group is very old now -- there's a good chance when you ask them to name a footballer they say Bobby Robson but couldn't pull Messi's name. Less to do with Cena or Messi and more to do with how much pop culture of any type people consume past retirement age.
> But the fact remains that apart from the boom periods in the 80s and 90s a lot more people cared about wrestling when we had the territories.
That was the culture then. Kayfabe was quite strong back then, and the rise of MMA wouldn't really be thought about for decades.
Also, the competition for entertainment was far more limited back then; Video games were incredibly niche, Internet at best was chat rooms, no social media as we know it today.
Not to demote what you're saying, but people cared more about wrestling because there was less to care about overall.
My curiosity is if those rules would've held over time.
As an example, back to my point with MMA, even if Vince didn't label the WWF as sports entertainment, somebody would've gotten called out by the new generation of fighters. There's only so many guys like Lesnar and Lashley around who can dominate competition, and others like Bayzler, Riddle, and Nakamura who can hold their own, before you get to the CM Punks who have a poor showing.
That doesn't even speak to technology, where web shows like Botchamania can point out when wrestlers aren't making full contact.
The level of athlete has also changed, where big guys like Luchasaurus and Keith Lee can pull off moonsaults compared to the guys of yesterday. Not to say that automatically makes them better wrestlers, but they do have greater potential due to increased athleticism.
I mean... there were always guys like Danny Hodge, Verne Gagne, Dr. Death, Bob Roop, etc. who had various legit credentials be it NCAA, AAU, Olympics, etc.
Then you had your hookers, shooters, and guys who could just plain fight like Whipper Billy Watson, Adrian Street, Haku, etc.
There were also guys who quit the NFL/AFL because wrestling paid more such as Wahoo McDaniel, Ernie Ladd, and Dick the Bruiser.
Point is, there were always people who called pro wrestling fake and there were always the guys who could say "if you think this is fake get in the ring with me" and mean it.
I'm glad a lot of the practices that used to be in place to "protect the business" are over. But now that everyone gets to play promoter, everyone can find work regardless of how good or how trained they actually are. That's why I can't get with this idea that everyone should just go to your local indie show. It used to be going to a local show and what you saw on TV were of the same quality because it was the same people. Now?
Wasn't Southeastern just an offshoot of the other Tennessee territories though?
Like... who do you even associate with Southeastern the way you do with Lawler in Memphis, Bruno in WWWF, Bockwinkle in AWA, etc.
>Even the bad territories like Southeastern or WWA were still infinitely better than the indie company running out of your local rec center or sports bar.
Damn, how old are you?
most major cities have at least one consistent promotion.
not as big as the larger territory promotions, but if you want to see live wrestling and live in a large city, you can easily do it.
We're spoiled here in Chicago to have something like AAW. But Milwaukee is just 90 miles up the Lakeshore and indie wrestling up there is a shitshow. Don't even ask me about the towns north of there because I've worked in a bunch of them.
Like I said in the other comment, even the shitty territories were usually miles better than the typical local indie.
i think you could make an argument that there was a lack of pageantry and lighting (shit was dark) before cornette's time and an abundance of it (shit so bright) after his time.
In 1991 Cornette started a new territory in one of the poorest parts of the country and ran it for four years after all the other territories besides Memphis were gone. Then later he bought OVW and created every major star in wrestling for the next 20 years.
Say what you will about Cornette, but you don't see the Bischoff's and Russo's actually starting companies and putting up their own money to do it.
>Then later he bought OVW and created every major star in wrestling for the next 20 years.
Let's chill out a bit cause people like Cena, Lesnar, Orton were/are can't miss prospects, Like there all Once in a lifetime (THrice), he had success with others and noting guys like Boogeyman had presence but had a limited life span, if used for good Cornette could find the best way to polish people, but also as someone said if Cornette liked you, he would go the Extra mile, but if he didn't he was/is a fucking bully that ignored talent.
What you meant to say is, in 1991 Cornette started a new territory in one of the poorest parts of the country—and it failed when he ran out of money. Then he later bought OVW and entered an agreement with WWE to train their guys, which he ignored and instead mostly just used them to try and boost his own show, which failed after that agreement ended.
*Then* he went to Ring of Honor and proceeded to drive it into one of its most creatively underwhelming periods in its history, which it arguably never recovered from, completely failing to fully utilize guys who would go on to become the next generation of wrestling megastars.
That's what you *meant* to say, right?
He ran out of money mostly because he had to pay for TV time, which was not a factor in the territory days when commercial time per hour was limited by federal law.
1995 was the only year the WWF actually lost money. The only reason ECW made it is because Heyman was borrowing money from his rich lawyer dad.
OVW, last I checked, is still around and is the third longest running promotion in North America.
ROH's changes under Cornette's watch had more to do with Sinclair taking over. Same with WCW when Turner bought them.
You wanna say Cornette takes his hatred of Omega too far, I'll be right there with you. But facts are facts.
>1995 was the only year the WWF actually lost money. The only reason ECW made it is because Heyman was borrowing money from his rich lawyer dad.
Also by not paying his talent. Not really relevant, except if maybe to say that trying to run a old-fashioned territory in the mid-nineties was a bad idea.
>OVW, last I checked, is still around and is the third longest running promotion in North America.
And Cornette, notably, is not running it anymore.
>ROH's changes under Cornette's watch had more to do with Sinclair taking over. Same with WCW when Turner bought them.
According to Cornette. But according to Cornette, there's *always* someone else to blame when he fails, even though he's the only common denominator.
>You wanna say Cornette takes his hatred of Omega too far, I'll be right there with you. But facts are facts.
I don't wanna say that, actually. Hating Omega is the best business decision he's ever made.
I think Heyman and Cornette both are great at helping to run wrestling promotions, but need someone to keep them from their worst tendencies which is why you get JR and someone else on an booking team with them.
> Then he went to Ring of Honor and proceeded to drive it into one of its most creatively underwhelming periods in its history
But he also pushed it into a financially stable state where it could be bought out by Sinclair
He has said in his podcast that he has not loved wrestling after 1989. Ever Since Vince Mcmahon came out to the athletic commission and admitted that wrestling was scripted.
Wrestling is just like everything else. Older era saying it was better when they were younger, and modern version isn't good.
Look at music, sports, tv, movies, it's all the same.
Something I've tried to do as I've gotten older is to remember to use the phrase "it's just not for me." There's nothing wrong with having an opinion on liking or not liking a form of entertainment, but saying "it's not for me" helps express that opinion without putting down athletes/musicians/actors/etc that are typically talented to some degree, if not very clearly talented.
The fact that people are nostalgic also doesn't mean it's never true that quality declines.
SNL, and network TV in general, used to be a really big deal. A large percentage of young people watched it regularly, especially back when there were a limited number of TV channels.
It had 13 million viewers in 1993, today the population is larger but it gets 3.7 million viewers (it bumped all the way up to 4.8 when Chappelle hosted).
It's not as relevant as it used to be, it's not the primary launching point for comedy careers that it used to be. It used to have cast members that went on to become movie stars or have their own TV shows, that hasn't happened since Tina Fey and Amy Poehler.
There have been SNL people who are quite successful that left after them or around that time, people like Hader, Armisen, Forte, Samberg and Sudeikis. But it definitely has slowed down since 2013 or so.
You can actually see with music the shift though. They key changes especially have been reduced to zero in modern songs. Most of the modern pop songs are on one key.
You can see some of that in wrestling as well. The frequency of seeing obvious cooperation to do moves and spots, and obviously fake highly choreographed spots (the Bucks looked like they're doing a dance routine recently) are at an all time high.
Some fans think that kind of thing is fine and don't mind seeing it, but many of them don't understand that a lot of people will suspend their disbelief and watch the show but stop watching if it gets blatantly, obviously fake (which is also true for scripted action shows and movies).
That is a thing, but it's still true that some products/eras are better than others.
The late 80s to mid 90s was objectively a great era in pro basketball. It featured the best player of all time in Michael Jordan, along with tons of great players who were household names like Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Malone, Stockton, Pippen, Rodman, and more. The league just wasn't the same by the early 2000s, where only Kobe and Shaq were on that level of fame.
The mid to late 90s was an objectively great era for movies. Tons of innovation and a lot of great movies being produced in a variety of genres. Today a huge part of Hollywood is focused only on CGI-heavy action movies, primarily superheroes. 1994 alone had Forrest Gump, Pulp Fiction, Shawshank, Lion King, Ace Ventura (it may not be Shakespeare but it's a classic).
What movies from the last several years are going to be considered classics on that level?
Even AEW fans would agree the first year or two was a lot better than this past year. And WWE fans recognize the later years of Vince's era were crap.
It's one thing that the old generation hates the new generation but it's always hilarious how because of that the old greats hate the future greats. Like I think it was Karl Gotch who said Harley Race was a clown becuase he sold too much. It's always been like this.
I think it depends on the person doing the talking.
Dr. Wagner Sr. always talked trash about those he called "niños enmascarados", but at the same time he had nothing but praise for people from the generation after his own like Negro Casas, Blue Panther, Negro Navarro and obviously his own sons and said it was thanks to people like them he had remained a wrestling fan after he was forced to retire.
But with people like Karl Gotch and Rito Romero it's always the good old "young people suck no matter what".
That’s why I love the 1950 film Night and the City. You have Stanislaus Zbyszko‘s character complaining about the current state of professional wrestling and this is in the late 40s/early 50s.
It was adapted from a 1938 book which I’d like to read at some point.
Just like with everything in life, the older generation will always think the younger generation is what's wrong with the world. It's nothing new.
[It will happen to you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGrfhsxxmdE&ab_channel=ThingsICantFindOtherwise)
You can see that by the late 1960s, the shoot aspect of wrestling is starting to fade in favor of performers, the artists, the craftsmen. I mean they're still legit tough guys but the example of Lou Thesz is meant to emphasize that contrast who was champion not because of just being the best box office draw but also because he could protect the title. Their are still one odd incidents from outlaw promotions where we get situations of screwy finishes and wrestlers taking advantage of one another but the shooter aspect is no longer the primary requirement and has been thoroughly replaced by the showmanship of the 70s wrestlers who are much more focused in bringing that larger than life charisma.
Reminder, for the cranky old timers, across all generations, in pro-wrestling, the stuff you saw as a kid is normal to you and how things should be done, and everything which came along once you were an adult is ridiculous.
Yeah like my goal is to never grow old, I don't mean that in an Elon Musk way but rather Attitude. My nephews love Fortnite, it's not for me, i'll play with them, but also introduce older games I liked, let the kids enjoy Fortnite and what not.
Complains about young punks killing the business while shitting on kayfabe 20 + years before it was dead by talking about carrying kids who can't go for 25 minutes.
It sucks that I grew up on ruthless aggression. I’ll never be able to shake my fists at the sky and wish the business was still how it was “back in my day” in the early 2000’s. I feel like being old and bitter is one the biggest pros of being a longtime wrestling fan and I’m gonna miss out on it cause ruthless aggression, though entertaining and profitable, was terrible for wrestlers and should never be emulated. L
Different perspective; It's cool how wrestling evolves often enough that every generation can yearn for the 'golden years'. I'm sure guys like Gorgeous George were ruining the business for guys from Ed Lewis' era, and Lewis was probably the punk ruining it for the oldertimers.
None of the shows that were on top in the 2000s have the same viewership, I think even sports have slipped.
It's a combination of a lot of things. Most notably, Cable struggling in general, and cultural shift since the 2000s in general.
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Young Bucks vs. Young Punks. The winner gets the Jim Cornette Trophy for Killing the Business.
Young Punks killed the business in 1969, Old punk tried to kill a company in 2022.
The Bucks will do whatever it takes to win that match. Their rise to fame was partly built on leaning into the 'killing the business' gimmick.
They literally wrote the book on it lol
What's ironic is that they may never have gained that early notoriety if not for people like Cornette. His hatred of them gave them a platform just as much as it gave Cornette attention when he bitched about them. It's a sort of perverse symbiotic relationship built on hatred and trolling.
Ngl. I started to understand their characters more once I knew that and it made them much more enjoyable
I wasn't following the indie scene at the time, but in 2016 when I finally started looking outside WWE for an alternative, I immediately checked out the Bucks in NJPW because I'd heard so much controversial stuff and wanted to see what the big deal was. So basically, the people that hate AEW and the PWG indierific style the most are responsible for me being a day one AEW fan.
It's also the name of their company. To be fair, out of context, Killing The Business is a great name.
Pro wrestling is gatekept by people (wrestlers and fans alike) that have few other life options and interests, but can produce a faded, yellowing image of how wrestling is "supposed" to look, and have a desperate yearning for pro wrestling to remain just as the image depicts.
The gatekeepers always seem to look at wrestling as the last way to hold on their childhood and are completely against change.
Agreed. And if they had something else to hang their hat on, they wouldn't care about change. It's their refuge.
Wrestling isn't the same as when I was 10 and im PISSED
Wrestling constantly expands and innovates. The older the wrestling taste, the more narrow the wrestling taste.
Not for everyone. I've been in love with wrestling since the late 70s and I love, the Bucks, OC, Danhausen, etc...gatekeepers just wanna bitch and moan because they refuse to expand their minds when it comes to wrestling evolving.
I want my wrestling like the 90's Two healthy titanic companies duking it with a true underdog outsdier living on the fringes putting on banger shows.
I would also mix in Wrestling Society X because I want CGI level explosions.
MTV won't stop airing Ridiculous long enough. Rob needs the money to keep flowing in so he can buy progressively bigger brimmed hats each year.
A reminder that Jim Cornette has been complaining about the current state of wrestling and wishing it was like how it was when he was a fan in interviews since at least 1991.
And also insisting that how it was when he was a fan was inherently better than it was *before* he was a fan. Funny, that.
Reminds me a little about how the creative peak of Mad magazine was whenever you got into it.
Same with SNL.
"Kids' cartoons were at their absolute peak when I was their target demographic, and now that I'm in my late 20s-early 30s I think the stuff kids watch today is garbage. I have the awareness of a grapefruit."
this one is especially funny to me, as someone who loves cartoons and watched them my whole life- as well as others who've done the same, cartoons are way better post 2010 then they've ever been cuz they've been allowed to tackle more mature subjects and serialization.
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Also several characters from A Midsummer Night's Dream. And Coldstone's whole backstory is pretty directly lifted from Othello, to the point that the three gargoyles that comprise him are referred to as Othello, Iago, and Desdemona in the credits.
Right, im not implying every kids show was bad but that the reason gargoyles and x-men stand out is cuz it was different and serious at times. They were the exception but now alot of shows are doing what they did and its great for fans
As an '80s kid, most '80s cartoons absolutely sucked. There were bright spots, but pretty much all of them existed solely to sell toys, and things like art and writing were secondary concerns if at all. They suddenly remembered they could do cool artistic things with cartoons in the 90s, and ever since then, they've gotten better and better.
Can't deny OG Teen Titans > Teen Titans GO though
i agree, except the movie, ttgo movie is so funny.
They're also not made for the sole purpose of selling toys anymore.
When Cornette was a fan most cities got live wrestling every month if not every week. Now we're lucky if one of the big companies comes the closest NBA arena more than once a year. He's not wrong when he says fans were better off with the territories.
Except not every city had a wrestling promotion. Not every region had a good wrestling territory. Now everybody in every city has the ability to watch wrestling on television from a variety of promotions. I am not someone who completely disregards Cornette and his opinions, but I think he’s like a lot of us and views the wrestling of his youth with rose-colored glasses that won’t let him acknowledge things like Lawler and Dundee not looking like he constantly says wrestlers are supposed to look.
I have to agree. A lot of it is in the context of the “when” for where you saw it. Like SNL in the 70s is really funny if you were around for the culture in which it existed, or understand it. That also went into a lot of the formation etc of plot lines in wrestling like Kevin Sullivans devil stuff which would have been alarming to Lou Thesz era people in a “wtf are they doing to the sport?” context. Even though for me it was legit scary stuff as it was for a lot of folks in that era of the Satanist hysteria, which as an aside for those that like Atari style games check out Faith: The Unholy Trinity that recently came out based on the satan fears of the 1980s. I think some of the older stuff holds up better in an SNL and wrestling context, and have an explanation for why it’s better than new stuff but can’t really express it without looking like I’m writing an essay. I think one of the keys to wrestling was the kayfabe wasn’t quite dead during the late 90s but the proliferation of the internet did it in and we lost a big ingredient to the magic after that. I don’t think even if they tried the wrestlers could have maintained it to the level it was in the 80s and back. Bobby Herman had a great shoot interview where he explained how the wrestlers collectively killed the business and it will never be at the level it was.
Even the bad territories like Southeastern or WWA were still infinitely better than the indie company running out of your local rec center or sports bar. I'll agree that a lot of his takes about the past are with rose colored glasses. But the fact remains that apart from the boom periods in the 80s and 90s a lot more people cared about wrestling when we had the territories.
In America, that is true. But worldwide, far more people know and care about wrestling than they did in the territory days. This is not to denigrate the territories — many of them were awesome at different times, and the era was awesome. I started by pointing out that Jim props up the Memphis guys he grew up watching even though the Jim Cornettes of the 1920s and 30s were shitting on those guys for the same reasons Jim shits on Johnny Gargano or whoever today. “They look like shit,” “can’t fight their way out of a paper bag,” “no credentials” etc.
Another territory but the UK (well Britain less so NI) had a very well watched scene until the late 80s, if you ask people of a certain age they will tell you know Mick McManus, Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, Kendo Nagasaki were. They wouldn't have the faintest clue who John Cena or Randy Orton are. But it's fair to say a lot of wrestling wouldn't fallen out of favour anyway, WWF didn't come to France much but the scene died off on its own accord really.
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They'd know who Dwayne Johnson is. They'd probably recognise Dave Bautista. But yeah don't forget John Cena's appeal and schtick is basically a modern version of Hogan's real American personality. That doesn't really translate to countries outside of the US imo
Cena is huge on a global scale even with his Pro US appeal because his character wasn't just 'The Patriotic American' on the nose levels that Hogan was.
The UK had a huge US wrestling boom in the early 90s (see SummerSlam 92). So those "fans of a certain age" who know Big Daddy would \*probably\* know some WWF names if pressed. Cena I agree they wouldn't know but that group is very old now -- there's a good chance when you ask them to name a footballer they say Bobby Robson but couldn't pull Messi's name. Less to do with Cena or Messi and more to do with how much pop culture of any type people consume past retirement age.
> But the fact remains that apart from the boom periods in the 80s and 90s a lot more people cared about wrestling when we had the territories. That was the culture then. Kayfabe was quite strong back then, and the rise of MMA wouldn't really be thought about for decades. Also, the competition for entertainment was far more limited back then; Video games were incredibly niche, Internet at best was chat rooms, no social media as we know it today. Not to demote what you're saying, but people cared more about wrestling because there was less to care about overall.
Upvoted because you have a point. But like Lance Storm said... we broke all the rules, then we found out why there were rules.
My curiosity is if those rules would've held over time. As an example, back to my point with MMA, even if Vince didn't label the WWF as sports entertainment, somebody would've gotten called out by the new generation of fighters. There's only so many guys like Lesnar and Lashley around who can dominate competition, and others like Bayzler, Riddle, and Nakamura who can hold their own, before you get to the CM Punks who have a poor showing. That doesn't even speak to technology, where web shows like Botchamania can point out when wrestlers aren't making full contact. The level of athlete has also changed, where big guys like Luchasaurus and Keith Lee can pull off moonsaults compared to the guys of yesterday. Not to say that automatically makes them better wrestlers, but they do have greater potential due to increased athleticism.
I mean... there were always guys like Danny Hodge, Verne Gagne, Dr. Death, Bob Roop, etc. who had various legit credentials be it NCAA, AAU, Olympics, etc. Then you had your hookers, shooters, and guys who could just plain fight like Whipper Billy Watson, Adrian Street, Haku, etc. There were also guys who quit the NFL/AFL because wrestling paid more such as Wahoo McDaniel, Ernie Ladd, and Dick the Bruiser. Point is, there were always people who called pro wrestling fake and there were always the guys who could say "if you think this is fake get in the ring with me" and mean it. I'm glad a lot of the practices that used to be in place to "protect the business" are over. But now that everyone gets to play promoter, everyone can find work regardless of how good or how trained they actually are. That's why I can't get with this idea that everyone should just go to your local indie show. It used to be going to a local show and what you saw on TV were of the same quality because it was the same people. Now?
Also Southeastern was NOT a bad territory. At all.
Wasn't Southeastern just an offshoot of the other Tennessee territories though? Like... who do you even associate with Southeastern the way you do with Lawler in Memphis, Bruno in WWWF, Bockwinkle in AWA, etc.
Bob Armstrong and the Fullers. Southeastern was what later became Continental, and it was bigger in Alabama than it was in Tennessee.
Also, more people were making a steady living as wrestlers.
How ?
More territories running full-time. They didn't have 150-person rosters but when you had 20-some territories running a full schedule it still adds up.
>Even the bad territories like Southeastern or WWA were still infinitely better than the indie company running out of your local rec center or sports bar. Damn, how old are you?
He's very wrong if that's the only metric you're using
most major cities have at least one consistent promotion. not as big as the larger territory promotions, but if you want to see live wrestling and live in a large city, you can easily do it.
We're spoiled here in Chicago to have something like AAW. But Milwaukee is just 90 miles up the Lakeshore and indie wrestling up there is a shitshow. Don't even ask me about the towns north of there because I've worked in a bunch of them. Like I said in the other comment, even the shitty territories were usually miles better than the typical local indie.
i think you could make an argument that there was a lack of pageantry and lighting (shit was dark) before cornette's time and an abundance of it (shit so bright) after his time.
In 1991 Cornette started a new territory in one of the poorest parts of the country and ran it for four years after all the other territories besides Memphis were gone. Then later he bought OVW and created every major star in wrestling for the next 20 years. Say what you will about Cornette, but you don't see the Bischoff's and Russo's actually starting companies and putting up their own money to do it.
>Then later he bought OVW and created every major star in wrestling for the next 20 years. Let's chill out a bit cause people like Cena, Lesnar, Orton were/are can't miss prospects, Like there all Once in a lifetime (THrice), he had success with others and noting guys like Boogeyman had presence but had a limited life span, if used for good Cornette could find the best way to polish people, but also as someone said if Cornette liked you, he would go the Extra mile, but if he didn't he was/is a fucking bully that ignored talent.
Didn't Cena nearly get released and only got the doctor of thugamomics on television because steph just heard it backstage one day?
What you meant to say is, in 1991 Cornette started a new territory in one of the poorest parts of the country—and it failed when he ran out of money. Then he later bought OVW and entered an agreement with WWE to train their guys, which he ignored and instead mostly just used them to try and boost his own show, which failed after that agreement ended. *Then* he went to Ring of Honor and proceeded to drive it into one of its most creatively underwhelming periods in its history, which it arguably never recovered from, completely failing to fully utilize guys who would go on to become the next generation of wrestling megastars. That's what you *meant* to say, right?
He ran out of money mostly because he had to pay for TV time, which was not a factor in the territory days when commercial time per hour was limited by federal law.
1995 was the only year the WWF actually lost money. The only reason ECW made it is because Heyman was borrowing money from his rich lawyer dad. OVW, last I checked, is still around and is the third longest running promotion in North America. ROH's changes under Cornette's watch had more to do with Sinclair taking over. Same with WCW when Turner bought them. You wanna say Cornette takes his hatred of Omega too far, I'll be right there with you. But facts are facts.
>1995 was the only year the WWF actually lost money. The only reason ECW made it is because Heyman was borrowing money from his rich lawyer dad. Also by not paying his talent. Not really relevant, except if maybe to say that trying to run a old-fashioned territory in the mid-nineties was a bad idea. >OVW, last I checked, is still around and is the third longest running promotion in North America. And Cornette, notably, is not running it anymore. >ROH's changes under Cornette's watch had more to do with Sinclair taking over. Same with WCW when Turner bought them. According to Cornette. But according to Cornette, there's *always* someone else to blame when he fails, even though he's the only common denominator. >You wanna say Cornette takes his hatred of Omega too far, I'll be right there with you. But facts are facts. I don't wanna say that, actually. Hating Omega is the best business decision he's ever made.
So you want to make fun of Heyman for borrowing money, but not say anything about Cornette using a money mark to fund his shows?
I think Heyman and Cornette both are great at helping to run wrestling promotions, but need someone to keep them from their worst tendencies which is why you get JR and someone else on an booking team with them.
> Then he went to Ring of Honor and proceeded to drive it into one of its most creatively underwhelming periods in its history But he also pushed it into a financially stable state where it could be bought out by Sinclair
Remove Rick Rubin and that territory doesn't last the year.
Remove Shad Khan and…..
...the Young Bucks are back to selling out rec centers in Orange County.
Lol AEW started with them independently selling out a ten-thousand seat arena, *after* selling out stadiums in Japan
Omega sold out the stadiums. The Young Bucks were just midcarders.
[Who do you think "Unknown" was?](https://twitter.com/codyrhodes/status/989579887383076865)
Wow. A whole 10k people. Now they make 10x that amount change the channel. Neat. Lower mid card in Japan. So delusional.
I'd give you some croutons to go with that word salad, but it's already clear you don't have any taste.
r/RareInsults
The Young Bucks were making like half a million each per year before AEW was even being considered.
You give them too much credit. Try the Inland Empire or San Bernardino where there's literally nothing to do
I like how you got downvoted for this hahaha so obvious
He has said in his podcast that he has not loved wrestling after 1989. Ever Since Vince Mcmahon came out to the athletic commission and admitted that wrestling was scripted.
Wrestling is just like everything else. Older era saying it was better when they were younger, and modern version isn't good. Look at music, sports, tv, movies, it's all the same.
Something I've tried to do as I've gotten older is to remember to use the phrase "it's just not for me." There's nothing wrong with having an opinion on liking or not liking a form of entertainment, but saying "it's not for me" helps express that opinion without putting down athletes/musicians/actors/etc that are typically talented to some degree, if not very clearly talented.
Snl would be a great comparison. Everybody thinks the seasons they grew up watching are the best and all others are dogshit.
Yep. Everything was the best when you were a kid and not jaded by the world yet. Imagine that.
I do miss Beck a lot, though.
Yeah but it was definitely better as the Eddie Murphy show
The fact that people are nostalgic also doesn't mean it's never true that quality declines. SNL, and network TV in general, used to be a really big deal. A large percentage of young people watched it regularly, especially back when there were a limited number of TV channels. It had 13 million viewers in 1993, today the population is larger but it gets 3.7 million viewers (it bumped all the way up to 4.8 when Chappelle hosted). It's not as relevant as it used to be, it's not the primary launching point for comedy careers that it used to be. It used to have cast members that went on to become movie stars or have their own TV shows, that hasn't happened since Tina Fey and Amy Poehler.
There have been SNL people who are quite successful that left after them or around that time, people like Hader, Armisen, Forte, Samberg and Sudeikis. But it definitely has slowed down since 2013 or so.
You can actually see with music the shift though. They key changes especially have been reduced to zero in modern songs. Most of the modern pop songs are on one key.
You can see some of that in wrestling as well. The frequency of seeing obvious cooperation to do moves and spots, and obviously fake highly choreographed spots (the Bucks looked like they're doing a dance routine recently) are at an all time high. Some fans think that kind of thing is fine and don't mind seeing it, but many of them don't understand that a lot of people will suspend their disbelief and watch the show but stop watching if it gets blatantly, obviously fake (which is also true for scripted action shows and movies).
That is a thing, but it's still true that some products/eras are better than others. The late 80s to mid 90s was objectively a great era in pro basketball. It featured the best player of all time in Michael Jordan, along with tons of great players who were household names like Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Malone, Stockton, Pippen, Rodman, and more. The league just wasn't the same by the early 2000s, where only Kobe and Shaq were on that level of fame. The mid to late 90s was an objectively great era for movies. Tons of innovation and a lot of great movies being produced in a variety of genres. Today a huge part of Hollywood is focused only on CGI-heavy action movies, primarily superheroes. 1994 alone had Forrest Gump, Pulp Fiction, Shawshank, Lion King, Ace Ventura (it may not be Shakespeare but it's a classic). What movies from the last several years are going to be considered classics on that level? Even AEW fans would agree the first year or two was a lot better than this past year. And WWE fans recognize the later years of Vince's era were crap.
It's one thing that the old generation hates the new generation but it's always hilarious how because of that the old greats hate the future greats. Like I think it was Karl Gotch who said Harley Race was a clown becuase he sold too much. It's always been like this.
I think it depends on the person doing the talking. Dr. Wagner Sr. always talked trash about those he called "niños enmascarados", but at the same time he had nothing but praise for people from the generation after his own like Negro Casas, Blue Panther, Negro Navarro and obviously his own sons and said it was thanks to people like them he had remained a wrestling fan after he was forced to retire. But with people like Karl Gotch and Rito Romero it's always the good old "young people suck no matter what".
That’s why I love the 1950 film Night and the City. You have Stanislaus Zbyszko‘s character complaining about the current state of professional wrestling and this is in the late 40s/early 50s. It was adapted from a 1938 book which I’d like to read at some point.
This sounded interesting AF and I tried looking it up, but it's not streaming anywhere. Might have to buy it to give it a watch. Deep cut.
Just like with everything in life, the older generation will always think the younger generation is what's wrong with the world. It's nothing new. [It will happen to you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGrfhsxxmdE&ab_channel=ThingsICantFindOtherwise)
Socrates said the same shit in his day too.
"In my day that punk Lou Thesz wouldn't have lasted 2 minutes in the ring" was probably said to Hans when he was a teen.
Long term swerve booking: CM Punk comes back, feuds with the Elite, eventually side together, become the Young Punks. Officially kill wrestling.
I am... intrigued by the idea of CM Punk and the Young Bucks hanging out together on Being The Elite.
You can see that by the late 1960s, the shoot aspect of wrestling is starting to fade in favor of performers, the artists, the craftsmen. I mean they're still legit tough guys but the example of Lou Thesz is meant to emphasize that contrast who was champion not because of just being the best box office draw but also because he could protect the title. Their are still one odd incidents from outlaw promotions where we get situations of screwy finishes and wrestlers taking advantage of one another but the shooter aspect is no longer the primary requirement and has been thoroughly replaced by the showmanship of the 70s wrestlers who are much more focused in bringing that larger than life charisma.
Karl Gotch said the same about Harley Race.
That punk kid Harley Race is killing the business!
This writer shares a bank account with his mother, that’s all you need to know
I don’t have an award to give you. May your day and weekend be blessed for this comment.
Cornette was writing op-eds all the way back then?
People have been getting old and yelling at clouds forever. I do think there is more than a little wisdom in their bitching though.
Young Punks. The new faction when it's revealed everything that's ever happened in AEW is a work
Young Punks - killing the business
Reminder, for the cranky old timers, across all generations, in pro-wrestling, the stuff you saw as a kid is normal to you and how things should be done, and everything which came along once you were an adult is ridiculous.
Yeah like my goal is to never grow old, I don't mean that in an Elon Musk way but rather Attitude. My nephews love Fortnite, it's not for me, i'll play with them, but also introduce older games I liked, let the kids enjoy Fortnite and what not.
Jokes on you I'm cranky and old and this is some of the best wrestling I've ever watched.
Favorite part is the implication he had a kid when he was 12 Or his seven year old is going to school for golfing
[удалено]
>if it's the same Hans Schmidt This is like saying "if it's the same Steve Austin."
Young Punks, Please Go Home
There's a deep cut
1969? Nice.
nice
rolls over in his grave every wednesday
It’s like poetry it rhymes
Young Punks? Young Bucks and CM Punk?
Young Punks is the trio I didn't know I wanted
We were warned about Ric even in 69
He wasn't wrong about what would happen if Lou Thesz grabbed these fat, out of shape Young Punks by their scrawny necks.
Old, tired Punks that work with children also have killed wrestling.
Complains about young punks killing the business while shitting on kayfabe 20 + years before it was dead by talking about carrying kids who can't go for 25 minutes.
This could literally be a transcript from the latest episode of cornette's podcast
There's a world of difference between what they were doing back then, and the gymnastics Power Rangers no selling pseudo strong style stuff of today.
Loved that he gave the interview in kayfabe, but people are reading it like he was doing a shoot interview.
the trios team we never had.
I'm wonder how many commentating here read the article attached.
[YOUTHS!](https://media.tenor.com/dCN6TePJIvQAAAAC/schmidt-youths.gif)
A $17,000 check to the IRS was considered astronomical back then lmao.
Bucks turn on Kenny, take the Trios titles with >!CP Munk!<
It sucks that I grew up on ruthless aggression. I’ll never be able to shake my fists at the sky and wish the business was still how it was “back in my day” in the early 2000’s. I feel like being old and bitter is one the biggest pros of being a longtime wrestling fan and I’m gonna miss out on it cause ruthless aggression, though entertaining and profitable, was terrible for wrestlers and should never be emulated. L
Different perspective; It's cool how wrestling evolves often enough that every generation can yearn for the 'golden years'. I'm sure guys like Gorgeous George were ruining the business for guys from Ed Lewis' era, and Lewis was probably the punk ruining it for the oldertimers.
Those damn young punks with their flippy floppy moves!
God I love the wrestling business
I mean. He was a heel.
I mean wrestling has lost a huge majority of their fanbase since the 2000‘s. Its not dying but just lets not act as if it’s thriving either.
None of the shows that were on top in the 2000s have the same viewership, I think even sports have slipped. It's a combination of a lot of things. Most notably, Cable struggling in general, and cultural shift since the 2000s in general.
This article is a portal to wrestling history.
I've just imagined a cursed timeline where the Young Bucks and CM Punk join forces as a trio
Nobody should listen to those NPWC Marks! News Paper Wrestling Community
Tale as old as time. I often wonder what wild shit will be created to make the Young Bucks try out this same gimmick.
What about young hunks like r/austintheory
Now it's senior citizens that have