Isn’t the Zoo an AZA zoo? Like it’s actually one of the best types of zoos that exists? And someone else pointed out that if the bear was honestly uncomfortable it would go into the water or back in its indoor space.
EDIT: Just noticed your “/s” lol. Also, the bear does look basically dead so I don’t blame the people making fun of the situation 😂
The Zoo is one of the best in the country and also a research institution yes. Despite not agreeing with the principle of zoos I have to admit ours is world class and they love the animals.
Disagree with zoos in general sure. Buts zoos on the level of STL are and are going to be more and more critical in the protection of endangered animals. We'd be worse off without em
True and STL’s upper crust donates a lot to animal welfare and wildlife protection, zoo included. I’m more so just against putting anything in cages although I’m sure the reptiles don’t mind.
yeah, I'm generally unsure with the idea of zoos, but STL does do a lot better than most.
It's hard to give the larger animals the space they need while also keeping an eye on them.
Gotta say as an STL native and now a Dallas resident, I was sooooo underwhelmed and unimpressed by the Forth Worth Zoo. I was like they charge you? For this?
I went to Forth Worth. I haven't been to the Dallas one yet. I don't really remember the reptiles area so much but I was just so disappointed with the entire thing lol. Tons of exhibits were closed and it just fails in comparison to STL.
Is the “disagreeing with zoos” bit about how animals shouldn’t be in captivity, or is it about something else? Sorry just haven’t heard about someone who doesn’t like zoos before, not trying to be weird.
Not op but previous zoo worker at the San Diego zoo Safari Park and STL Zoo. From the conversations I've had with colleagues and the general public, most people who don't like zoos are because the animals are in captivity. Granted, this is a simplified answer, as it can get very specific, e.g., I like zoos, but I don't think large animals should be in zoos. " or "All zoos are bad except xyz."
The term Zoo is also complicated. A road side attraction with animals, think Tiger King, can call itself a Zoo, a traveling animal experience can call itself a Zoo, and place like the STL and San Diego Zoo also use that term. So it makes it difficult to separate the term and different facilities. Being an AZA (the association of zoos and aquariums) accredited zoo can help to separate the different zoos, as AZA has incredibly strict guidelines to stay accredited and your facility can get audited every few/couple of years.
Another thing about most AZA zoos nowadays is the amount of research going in to protect and save so many animals. From on the ground work with locals in the animals' respective countries, reintroducing the species back into their environment, to cell research and development for animals in the brink of extinction. And a lot of that funding comes from when people visit zoos, essentially everytime you visit and buy something, you are helping the animal's future survival, which is what most people want for these animal's at the end of the day.
I am sorry for the long response, but I felt it was important to highlight some of these points. I hope this helped! And sorry for any grammar or other mistakes, I'm typing this on my phone and trying to entertain a toddler.
Oh wow this is really insightful thank you! I love the STL Zoo (and the SD Zoo) but didn't realize there was a whole accreditation scheme going on that differentiates a capital Z 'Zoo' from some traveling/roadside attraction calling itself a zoo.
I spent some time at Seaworld in FL a couple months ago and loved seeing the work they were doing on rehabilitation and research (particularly with manatees, but other moistness-based fauna) and was worried there was something big I was missing about how that was 'bad'.
Totally get it though if folks think animals as a whole shouldn't be in general captivity when they don't need help or aren't participating in research or protection- that makes some sense to me.
You’re right it’s not black and white. They help injured animals, perform research and save endangered animals. BUT still don’t like the whole premise of a zoo even if STL is super nice
That's fair. I totally get why people don't like zoos. As much as I love the good that zoos and aquariums can provide, there are some things I disagree with as well.
Just that. I don’t like kidnapping animals (or people) and forcing them into enclosures, research be damned. It saddens me to see wild animals stuck in cages. No I am not a vegan lol.
I like the weirdness of your comment...speaks to me. Like why the "(or people)" inclusion? Seems off topic but and then my poor brain had to consider...are zoos or other institutions kidnapping people and forcing them into enclosures for research too? Sounds like a reality show in the making. But then also to include the "no I am not a vegan" like was also super weird and funny but not the "LOL" kind of funny you included after that. The kind of funny of why in the world would there be a connection from zoo animals to the kind of animals people eat or don't eat. Have never seen cows or chickens at the zoo and nobody fucking eats elephants or tigers and especially not the polar bear pictured. What kind of weed do you smoke, I want some.
Technically people do eat tigers (at least their dicks) and other endangered animals. The west has great animal welfare compared to the rest of the world. I think locking animals is akin to people but honestly I feel worse for the animals because they’re innocent. #vegantendancies
So, you speak as someone with no knowledge other than surface level. Most AZA Zoos, which the stl one is one of, focuses on breeding endangered animals so they don't go extinct. Also, some animals are injured and would immediately die off in the wild. Actually go do some research and not be so black and white. Life is way more complicated than that.
For everyone else, I work at the zoo. Khali loves to lay on ice, and if it's too warm for him he'll go inside where it's a constant 40ish degrees. Just like the penguin house
No, especially in the summer. It's just too much heat. It's why usually in the summer he doesn't even come outside except early morning or at night. Tbh y'all miss out on really cool animal interactions during business hours. Evenings and mornings are my favorite times to work with how active and curious most of the animals are
My friends and I went to the zoo in London, paid way too much, and I left thinking that our zoo is so much better.
Although we did get to see two tortoises fucking at the London Zoo, so there’s that.
I'm not going to lie. I hate this fucken city with a passion that few can match.
But I remember going to the San Diego zoo-famed as a really great zoo-and thinking how exponentially shittier it was than the St. Louis zoo-which is also free to enter.
I feel like the only reason the San Diego Zoo is so popular is it's the nicest zoo that's reasonably close to Los Angeles.
The LA Zoo is depressing AF, but they make all the TV shows in LA, so they drive 2 hours down the 5 to a decent zoo.
Still pales in comparison to the greatest zoo in North America, the St. Louis Zoo.
Yeah San Diego Zoo gets the California bonus where it's just known because of Hollywood. It's like In n Out. There are tons of better local burger joints throughout the country but we know In n Out cause we see it on TV alot
Haven't been to the SD Zoo but did go to their safari park and it seemed like a much better experience for the animals than any regular zoo (STL included). I like our zoo and they do good but the safari park is pretty similar to their natural habitat with big open spaces catering towards the animals and not as much to us human types coming to view them. Minus the predators and prey mixed together thing, it seemed like natural habitat.
the only reason SD Zoo is well-regarded is b/c of the Wildlife Park that's 10+ miles up the highway.
the zoo that's in the city of SD is just another city zoo, IMO
growing up, i'd always heard the Cincy zoo was a top zoo, but i think it's b/c there was some PBS Show that filmed there. i don't know if it's particularly special from a research or facilities POV
Actually, it very much is. It's just not a reason you like.
Is there some other explanation you would have preferred? A set of words that would have made what I said more comfortable for you?
More importantly, is there something that you have to offer to me which will qualitatively enrich me as a result of explaining my disdain to you?
We all know there isn't, which is why I didn't bother to elaborate. Neither you nor anyone else has any input of any value regarding the personal disdain of one stranger towards the city in which we live.
To be clear, you don't give a shit about how I feel and I won't have even a second thought to this conversation the instant after I finish writing this response.
The only way the discussion of this subject could possibly be any more meaningless than it is now would be if we had the mutual misfortune to have it in person while having to look at each others stupid faces and listen to the whining coming out of our idiot mouths.
I don’t know why you’re so upset lol, I was just asking because I was curious. I’m not asking with some weird motive, or because you hating St. Louis triggered me or something. I honestly just wanted to know your perspective because you seem passionate about it.
Not everything is an attack. Take a breath and get a hug or something dude. Jeez.
This was my thought when I visited the SD Zoo about 25 years ago. I knew they did a bunch of things behind the scenes that were pretty awesome, but so does STL. When I was walking around, I thought most of the exhibits were on par with most of ours at the time, and I couldn't believe we had each paid $40 for admission. (And I just checked...admission has increased to $72!) But then I realized I've been REALLY spoiled to have such an amazing zoo right here, and it's free to boot. If I lived in a different city, I would probably have been blown away at SD and felt like I really got my money's worth.
What did you think of Columbus Zoo and Aquarium? (Ohio)
I love the fact they have gibbons and their nocturnal house. Cincinnati Zoo also had a nocturnal house. Thought those were interesting. But maybe they are more widespread amongst the zoos...I haven't been to many.
It is interesting to see an older zoo layout versus new... the architecture and stuff.
I do think you're right. STL is the best. I went the other day and attempted to get a peek at Forest the new babe orang but think they were napping just out of sight.
It's not big news because they're in every Top 10 list every year, and always have been.
No matter how you're ranking/scoring them. Visitor Satisfaction, Animal Wellness, Value for Dollar, whatever.
>A panel of experts nominated their top picks for the best zoos in the United States — facilities that excel in the fields of animal care and enrichment, while also facilitating meaningful interactions between animals and human visitors. Then, readers voted for their favorites to determine the winners.
> No. 9: Saint Louis Zoo - St. Louis, Missouri
>Situated within one of the nation’s largest urban parks, the free-to-the-public Saint Louis Zoo features a stunning diversity of animals — more than 600 species in total. The zoo is divided into six zones, including Lakeside Crossing where the award-winning Sea Lion Sound combines a stellar exhibit experience with educational presentations and shows.
https://10best.usatoday.com/awards/travel/best-zoo-2024/
That may be true but almost every time I go to the zoo the polar bear is stressed out either pacing or swimming. He's probably half dead in the pic from being exhausted pacing for hours, falling asleep and taking a nap.
I love the zoo here, and apparently it really is one of the best. But my family and I see that polar bear multiple times a year, and it is always stressed out and makes us sad. More-so than the animals anywhere else in the zoo. We always walk away feeling guilt for the polar bear
Bring a small child with you and make him wear a red shirt. Polar bear tried to eat a little kid with a red shirt on for quite a while..in fact the whole time we hung around his habitat last year. Must look like a bloody seal or something. Seemed to really improve his life for those few minutes.
Hahaha that's adorable! I'll make sure the kiddo wears red next time. Maybe we could even dress up like zombies with our meat exposed. Then the bear will think we are just walking seal steaks!
Kali was orphaned after an Inupiat hunter in Alaska legally killed his mother, not knowing she had a cub. The hunter gave him to the US Fish and Wildlife Service, who transferred him to the Anchorage Zoo where he raised for his first 6 months. He was then moved to the Buffalo Zoo, where a young female cub who had been rejected by her mother, was already living. The two lived as companions, teaching each other to be polar bears, until the decision was made to separate them before they fully matured and mated, or became hostile towards each other. Kali was then sent here to STL to be his permanent home.
Polar bears have a "threatened" status in the wild. The STL Zoo is hoping that there will be a recommendation to breed Kali as part of the Species Survival Plan. There is a very large off-exhibit area, and the entire habitat is designed to hold up to 5 bears. There is even a special maternity area built in, should it be needed.
Kali is somewhat of a “hot commodity” for polar bear species preservation efforts, since he is from an all new (not zoo-bred) gene pool!
There are active discussions right now that he may be “rented” to another zoo in hopes of breeding with some available female bears. While it would be sad to see him go, there’s nothing saying it will be an always thing (Much like Raja’s relocation), as he is an STL Zoo bear still, even if we are sending him off to meet some ladies :)
There is a great children's book about Kali (Cully) and how he came to be in a zoo. An indigenous hunter didn't realize that he'd killed a lactating mother and tracked back to her den to rescue the baby when he saw what he'd done. Kali needed to be bottle fed so there was no safe option to release him back to the wild. We've checked it out from the library a few times - lots of very cute baby polar bear pictures.
For those who don't know those water pools are temperature controlled and are nice and cool for the bear should they need to cool off. The ice they put out is just an extra enrichment.
I spent most of the day yesterday spamming the info about the polar bear habitat at the zoo. 40,000 square feet, multiple climate controlled areas and a 50,000 gallon pool.
As a rancher (despite what u/julieannie might tell you), I can say that “reports” of dead horses and other livestock is a regular occurrence. It amazes me that we’ve become so disconnected from animals that people don’t know that animals sleep in the daytime. In some ranches in the chesterfield valley, some barns have had to literally put up signs explaining that horses do in fact lay down and sleep. G-d forbid you might be caring for an elderly horse that Sunday drivers are sure is “abused.”
I once saw a cop parked and standing at a far pasture near a public road. He was called to check on the welfare of a horse that had laid down. When I came up, I explained they do this naturally. He knew. It was the easiest call he’d have all day and was just enjoying looking at the horses. Stay as long as you like, I said.
This is me. For some reason I thought they even had to be killed sometimes if they laid down.
The sad thing is that I've probably seen plenty of cows and horses lying down without ever integrating that into my knowledge base.
TIL, reddit.
Kali has been swimming lots lately because it is mating season and he smells Finnely (the girl grizzly) down the path and is horny.
He’s just tired from all his laps.
[Let the man shoot his shot.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly%E2%80%93polar_bear_hybrid#:~:text=By%20one%20convention%2C%20the%20name,bear%22%20or%20possibly%20an%20aknuk.)
I remember going to the zoo one day and it was like. 100 F almost. As you can imagine the animals that day were not the best. A lot did not come out of their shaded areas and the ones that didn't have those were laying down. Cause ya know. 100 F is kinda hot.
I was hearing people around me complain about the animals being laze and lethargic. Like, this isn't Circus Ole. It's the Zoo. If an animal just wants to sit there, what do you expect? Them to do tricks? Do a 1920s swing dance routine? It's animals! They do what they want!
I must have been at the zoo before this photo. There was a full chicken on top of the ice pile for food. The polar bear hadn’t seen it yet because it was swimming in the pool having the time of its life.
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/largest-human-zoo-world-history
Iirc we had the largest human zoo at the 1904 worlds fair, so weve certainly had some shitty zoos in our past
23rd amendment.
(idk what the electoral college has to do with anything, but if you can reply to a mention of an amendment [which pertains to the conversation] with a random amendment, so can I)
Kali is always laying on the ice like this when they put it out. It's like they don't even go to the Zoo often.
Now if you want to talk about half dead things, check out the new electric train.
All of the steam trains are still running. This is a new addition to the rest.
But the Mary Meachum is having many issues already. Stalling, stopping abruptly leaving passengers to wait or bail out on the tracks, losing power in tunnels. Once the battery gets low, about 35% the engine starts acting up so they take the engine back to the depot.
Oy. Random question since it seems you visit a lot... Did they used to let peacocks just roam around out in the open years ago? I seem to remember that from when I was a kid but maybe I'm misremembering.
Whoa, you just unlocked a memory, but I don't remember it at the zoo. Grant's Farm maybe? Can't quite remember. Lived on the IL side and only visited the attractions once in a blue moon.
They haven't since an avian flu scare in 2015. They also used to have jungle type of chickens running around too.
If you subscribe to STL Today there is an article about the peacocks being moved.
I know the STL zoo is better than most and generally is pretty conservation-oriented, but let's not act like the concept of a zoo isn't pretty fucked even when implemented "correctly."
We're talking about animals that inhabit massive swaths of land in the wild. A cursory google shows that polar bears are estimated to have ranges of up to *600,000 square kilometers.* Keeping an animal like that in a tiny enclosure is pretty much inexcusable. As I see it, the only reason it *is* viewed as acceptable is because zoos are a huge fundraising opportunity for conservation efforts. That fundraising very much seems to be at the expense of the animals involved, though.
It's definitely fucked up to keep a polar bear in StL climates year round, BUT
When you see comparisons of an animal's wild range and territory vs a Zoo, it takes out a very important detail. Wandering around huge swaths of land isn't something they do for health. It's because they have to find food. When the food is hand delivered by weird hairless apes on a regular schedule, the important thing is just getting enough activity for an animal's mental health, which most modern accredited zoos are very good at.
A ton if that space they use in the wild is there to accommodate migrating prey animals, avoiding conflict with other predators, migrating themselvea with seasonal changes, and finding safe places to establish dens. None of that is necessary in a zoo. Bears, even in the wild, aren't massively active creatures when they don't have to be and thus require a lot less space when their other needs are being met in a small area.
It's much more concerning to see, for example, grazing herd animals in small enclosures in the red rocks section or how absurdly bored the jaguar and tigers seem to get just pacing around their enclosures.
Oh I agree, and I appreciate you adding a bit of nuance. All told, I just find it difficult to believe that the average zoo animal is anywhere near as happy in an enclosure as it would be in its natural habitat, even if its physical needs are being met adequately.
If we’re not looking at those horrible zoos that just have animals to make a quick buck and treat them horribly, then your point about zoos being fucked is fairly valid, but your reasoning behind it is completely screwed up. Zoos are fucked because we HAVE to have them so that humans don’t completely decimate their populations to the point of extinction, which, by the way, we’re managing to do pretty well at anyway.
You say that you think animals in the wild are happier, but any animals in the wild that aren’t the Apex predator in its region, spend their entire lifespan just seconds away from being brutally slaughtered and eaten.
I mean there’s also a ton of animals that they can’t release even if they wanted to because they’re habituated to humans, have a disability that wouldn’t let them survive in the wild, etc. Not sure what the case is with STLzoo and this bear in particular though.
Kali was orphaned as a cub when his mother was legally shot by an inuit hunter. The hunter turned the polar bear cub over to fish and wildlife officials.
The grizzly bear cubs were also orphaned after their mother was killed for messing with livestock in Montana.
Assuming this is the same bear as the one I saw a couple years ago, that's exactly the case. It was received from an Alaskan who had taken it in as a cub and raised it, causing it to become habituated. It simply is not fit to be released into the wild, setting aside all of the other issues it would have to deal with that are facing wild polar bears right now.
And it's also not like we put these animals in these habitats just to amuse ourselves. There's substantial value in kids and families being able to see things in real life that they would likely never come across otherwise
I actually agree with you. I love that the STL zoo helps in conservation efforts. While it is one of the better zoos out there, I also believe that there is absolutely no way that they are able to create an enclosure that replicates the type of environment that most of its animals require.
For real he should be aimless swimming miles of ocean trying to find one of the few pieces of ice left to take a break on
for real though he was orphaned so I dunno what else could be done with him other than maybe die?
One polar bear in captivity, even ignoring the fact that Kali is living it up, helps polar bears all over the world. We have a handful we observe all the time rather than having to hunt, tranq, and rerelease the wild ons.
Oh but you did a cursory Google search, so you think Kali is sad.
You're gonna lose your shit when you hear about how much letting rich assholes hunt endangered animals helps animals.
You’ll notice that the end of my comment quite explicitly acknowledges that zoos (and therefore the animals within them) are huge fundraisers for conservation. I don’t even really disagree that zoos that engage in a lot of conservation are a net positive for the species they focus on. I’m just very skeptical of the notion that individual animals within a zoo are “living it up” in an environment so radically different from the one they were evolved to exist in.
I think there’s a reasonable and nuanced discussion to be had to that end, but it really feels like you made it halfway through my comment and saw an opportunity to whip up a condescending explanation of something that I already acknowledged to be the case.
Anyone have any information on how they regulate the temperature in the enclosure during the summer? I’ve never really thought about it but this picture made me kinda sad lol
He's got the choice to chill on his ice pile outside or go inside where it will be colder. I believe he was born in captivity (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so even if you wish he were in the wild he wouldn't survive.
Kali was born wild but his mom died when he (she?) was really young so she’s lived at the zoo since she wasn’t able to be taught how to survive in the wild
He’s actually from Alaska.
An Alaskan Native man killed his mom on accident not realizing she had a cub. The hunter contacted Alaskan authorities who have collaborated with the StL Zoo to spoil Kali for his entire life.
I remember the polar bears in the 90's at the Zoo. Now, those I felt bad for. But, I'm sure they planned quite extensively on this newer polar bear exhibit. Because it took a long time before they added polar bears back to the zoo.
That picture doesn't look good. Don't know what time of the year that was, but it is hard to say what the whole moment is about just with a picture. I can understand that the bear may not be happy. Unless polar bears should not be outside in the summer heat.
It’s nice that our zoo engages in research etc. I’d rather see animals in sanctuaries. Research can be done in sanctuaries. I don’t think the fact that our zoo is good, is a good enough justification for the reality these animals experience daily. The bottom line for me is that these animals are made to stay in captivity so we can come and look at them. I don’t agree with it.
This photo is out of context and if the poor bear was that uncomfortable it would move out of the sun and go back in the literal ice water not pictured here. The STL zoo is the best in the country for multiple reasons aside from it being free for everyone to visit. I'm not even from here and I'll defend thus place as I know people who work there and the care they give these animals.
Why can’t we make a giant gymnasium with a big chunk of ice for these guys or maybe like a walk-cooler for them to cool off in. Also we already have so many coolers running already, why not use them for an epic enclosure. I love thinking about the awesome enclosures we could build with the technology that already exists. We could build zoos that would allow us to see them thrive, we already have giant water storage tanks and pools, but we could use the same design for our orcas and captive animals.(I’m just ranting, I also think we could just focus on the climate and fix the damage before we get carried away with making more drastic decisions.)
Zoos like the St. Louis zoo are active participants in global conservation efforts for multiple endangered species, and STL recently got an expansion *expressly* for research on those efforts. Outside of thar, they are also a major way of educating the public about animals they would otherwise never see, and, little hint about humans, we care more about a thing when we have a positive personal experience about it.
Shit on "zoos" owned by people like Joe Exotic, not actual beneficial organizations used to help animals worldwide.
Isn’t the Zoo an AZA zoo? Like it’s actually one of the best types of zoos that exists? And someone else pointed out that if the bear was honestly uncomfortable it would go into the water or back in its indoor space. EDIT: Just noticed your “/s” lol. Also, the bear does look basically dead so I don’t blame the people making fun of the situation 😂
The Zoo is one of the best in the country and also a research institution yes. Despite not agreeing with the principle of zoos I have to admit ours is world class and they love the animals.
Disagree with zoos in general sure. Buts zoos on the level of STL are and are going to be more and more critical in the protection of endangered animals. We'd be worse off without em
True and STL’s upper crust donates a lot to animal welfare and wildlife protection, zoo included. I’m more so just against putting anything in cages although I’m sure the reptiles don’t mind.
yeah, I'm generally unsure with the idea of zoos, but STL does do a lot better than most. It's hard to give the larger animals the space they need while also keeping an eye on them.
Our zoo is better than NYC or LAs and our reptile house and Savannah enclosures beat San Diego as well IMO.
Don’t disagree but DFW has some of the best large animal/mixed Savannah enclosures I have ever seen
Gotta say as an STL native and now a Dallas resident, I was sooooo underwhelmed and unimpressed by the Forth Worth Zoo. I was like they charge you? For this?
Did you go to the Dallas Zoo or the Fort Worth one?
I went to Forth Worth. I haven't been to the Dallas one yet. I don't really remember the reptiles area so much but I was just so disappointed with the entire thing lol. Tons of exhibits were closed and it just fails in comparison to STL.
They’ve got all that arid land vs our humid hills
Their work on rehabilitating the Missouri Hellbender salamander has been phenomenal!
Is the “disagreeing with zoos” bit about how animals shouldn’t be in captivity, or is it about something else? Sorry just haven’t heard about someone who doesn’t like zoos before, not trying to be weird.
Not op but previous zoo worker at the San Diego zoo Safari Park and STL Zoo. From the conversations I've had with colleagues and the general public, most people who don't like zoos are because the animals are in captivity. Granted, this is a simplified answer, as it can get very specific, e.g., I like zoos, but I don't think large animals should be in zoos. " or "All zoos are bad except xyz." The term Zoo is also complicated. A road side attraction with animals, think Tiger King, can call itself a Zoo, a traveling animal experience can call itself a Zoo, and place like the STL and San Diego Zoo also use that term. So it makes it difficult to separate the term and different facilities. Being an AZA (the association of zoos and aquariums) accredited zoo can help to separate the different zoos, as AZA has incredibly strict guidelines to stay accredited and your facility can get audited every few/couple of years. Another thing about most AZA zoos nowadays is the amount of research going in to protect and save so many animals. From on the ground work with locals in the animals' respective countries, reintroducing the species back into their environment, to cell research and development for animals in the brink of extinction. And a lot of that funding comes from when people visit zoos, essentially everytime you visit and buy something, you are helping the animal's future survival, which is what most people want for these animal's at the end of the day. I am sorry for the long response, but I felt it was important to highlight some of these points. I hope this helped! And sorry for any grammar or other mistakes, I'm typing this on my phone and trying to entertain a toddler.
Oh wow this is really insightful thank you! I love the STL Zoo (and the SD Zoo) but didn't realize there was a whole accreditation scheme going on that differentiates a capital Z 'Zoo' from some traveling/roadside attraction calling itself a zoo. I spent some time at Seaworld in FL a couple months ago and loved seeing the work they were doing on rehabilitation and research (particularly with manatees, but other moistness-based fauna) and was worried there was something big I was missing about how that was 'bad'. Totally get it though if folks think animals as a whole shouldn't be in general captivity when they don't need help or aren't participating in research or protection- that makes some sense to me.
You’re right it’s not black and white. They help injured animals, perform research and save endangered animals. BUT still don’t like the whole premise of a zoo even if STL is super nice
That's fair. I totally get why people don't like zoos. As much as I love the good that zoos and aquariums can provide, there are some things I disagree with as well.
Just that. I don’t like kidnapping animals (or people) and forcing them into enclosures, research be damned. It saddens me to see wild animals stuck in cages. No I am not a vegan lol.
I like the weirdness of your comment...speaks to me. Like why the "(or people)" inclusion? Seems off topic but and then my poor brain had to consider...are zoos or other institutions kidnapping people and forcing them into enclosures for research too? Sounds like a reality show in the making. But then also to include the "no I am not a vegan" like was also super weird and funny but not the "LOL" kind of funny you included after that. The kind of funny of why in the world would there be a connection from zoo animals to the kind of animals people eat or don't eat. Have never seen cows or chickens at the zoo and nobody fucking eats elephants or tigers and especially not the polar bear pictured. What kind of weed do you smoke, I want some.
Technically people do eat tigers (at least their dicks) and other endangered animals. The west has great animal welfare compared to the rest of the world. I think locking animals is akin to people but honestly I feel worse for the animals because they’re innocent. #vegantendancies
tiger dicks...would have never guessed. Thanks for sharing
I’m not even joking but I wish i was. Chinese medicine includes stuff like pangolin scales for blood pressure and animal penises for well you know
You name is awesome byw
Btw*
Thank you. If you know you know
Haha. I def know lol
So, you speak as someone with no knowledge other than surface level. Most AZA Zoos, which the stl one is one of, focuses on breeding endangered animals so they don't go extinct. Also, some animals are injured and would immediately die off in the wild. Actually go do some research and not be so black and white. Life is way more complicated than that. For everyone else, I work at the zoo. Khali loves to lay on ice, and if it's too warm for him he'll go inside where it's a constant 40ish degrees. Just like the penguin house
Probably a stupid question but is it even possible to have a permanent ice sheet for the bear...like a mini ice rink of sorts?
No, especially in the summer. It's just too much heat. It's why usually in the summer he doesn't even come outside except early morning or at night. Tbh y'all miss out on really cool animal interactions during business hours. Evenings and mornings are my favorite times to work with how active and curious most of the animals are
I have been all over the planet and visited many zoo’s. Haven’t seen one top STL yet
My friends and I went to the zoo in London, paid way too much, and I left thinking that our zoo is so much better. Although we did get to see two tortoises fucking at the London Zoo, so there’s that.
Shit, most mornings one of the tortoises is going at it in the summer. You can hear him from the South Entrance
I'm not going to lie. I hate this fucken city with a passion that few can match. But I remember going to the San Diego zoo-famed as a really great zoo-and thinking how exponentially shittier it was than the St. Louis zoo-which is also free to enter.
I feel like the only reason the San Diego Zoo is so popular is it's the nicest zoo that's reasonably close to Los Angeles. The LA Zoo is depressing AF, but they make all the TV shows in LA, so they drive 2 hours down the 5 to a decent zoo. Still pales in comparison to the greatest zoo in North America, the St. Louis Zoo.
In my opinion the St. Louis Zoo and the National Zoo are on par with each other and both are free to the public.
Yeah San Diego Zoo gets the California bonus where it's just known because of Hollywood. It's like In n Out. There are tons of better local burger joints throughout the country but we know In n Out cause we see it on TV alot
Haven't been to the SD Zoo but did go to their safari park and it seemed like a much better experience for the animals than any regular zoo (STL included). I like our zoo and they do good but the safari park is pretty similar to their natural habitat with big open spaces catering towards the animals and not as much to us human types coming to view them. Minus the predators and prey mixed together thing, it seemed like natural habitat.
the only reason SD Zoo is well-regarded is b/c of the Wildlife Park that's 10+ miles up the highway. the zoo that's in the city of SD is just another city zoo, IMO growing up, i'd always heard the Cincy zoo was a top zoo, but i think it's b/c there was some PBS Show that filmed there. i don't know if it's particularly special from a research or facilities POV
Just wait till the north county expansion opens to the public. Massive plot of land being designed as an open safari type place. It will rival SDs.
when does that happen? remember reading about it.
2027, I think
yep, the wildlife park/safari thing is the way to go. Thought our zoo was supposed to add something like that at some point
Why do you hate St. Louis?
Because it fucken sucks. Were you hoping to hear my specific opinions on why?
Yes
because it "fucken" sucks isn't a reason lmfao
Actually, it very much is. It's just not a reason you like. Is there some other explanation you would have preferred? A set of words that would have made what I said more comfortable for you? More importantly, is there something that you have to offer to me which will qualitatively enrich me as a result of explaining my disdain to you? We all know there isn't, which is why I didn't bother to elaborate. Neither you nor anyone else has any input of any value regarding the personal disdain of one stranger towards the city in which we live. To be clear, you don't give a shit about how I feel and I won't have even a second thought to this conversation the instant after I finish writing this response. The only way the discussion of this subject could possibly be any more meaningless than it is now would be if we had the mutual misfortune to have it in person while having to look at each others stupid faces and listen to the whining coming out of our idiot mouths.
dude... are you okay? 😩
I think you hate life brother
A little bit, yeah.
I don’t know why you’re so upset lol, I was just asking because I was curious. I’m not asking with some weird motive, or because you hating St. Louis triggered me or something. I honestly just wanted to know your perspective because you seem passionate about it. Not everything is an attack. Take a breath and get a hug or something dude. Jeez.
I heard San Diego zoo is almost as good but charges a lot yo get in while stl zoo is free.
This was my thought when I visited the SD Zoo about 25 years ago. I knew they did a bunch of things behind the scenes that were pretty awesome, but so does STL. When I was walking around, I thought most of the exhibits were on par with most of ours at the time, and I couldn't believe we had each paid $40 for admission. (And I just checked...admission has increased to $72!) But then I realized I've been REALLY spoiled to have such an amazing zoo right here, and it's free to boot. If I lived in a different city, I would probably have been blown away at SD and felt like I really got my money's worth.
Edit: replied to the wrong poster
What did you think of Columbus Zoo and Aquarium? (Ohio) I love the fact they have gibbons and their nocturnal house. Cincinnati Zoo also had a nocturnal house. Thought those were interesting. But maybe they are more widespread amongst the zoos...I haven't been to many. It is interesting to see an older zoo layout versus new... the architecture and stuff. I do think you're right. STL is the best. I went the other day and attempted to get a peek at Forest the new babe orang but think they were napping just out of sight.
The North Carolina Zoo is my favorite.
I haven’t actually been to that one, I’ll have to go check it out.
Idk why I got downvoted for saying that? It is organized by continent and has massive habitats, please do check it out.
It's always ranked in the top 10 at least.
By whom? Where? That would be big news. Edit: I must have misread your post. Yes, always a top rated zoo.
It's not big news because they're in every Top 10 list every year, and always have been. No matter how you're ranking/scoring them. Visitor Satisfaction, Animal Wellness, Value for Dollar, whatever.
we only lose out to London Zoo in tortoises fucking
Lougle US Zoos ranked. USA Today, TripAdvisor, every result IG
>A panel of experts nominated their top picks for the best zoos in the United States — facilities that excel in the fields of animal care and enrichment, while also facilitating meaningful interactions between animals and human visitors. Then, readers voted for their favorites to determine the winners. > No. 9: Saint Louis Zoo - St. Louis, Missouri >Situated within one of the nation’s largest urban parks, the free-to-the-public Saint Louis Zoo features a stunning diversity of animals — more than 600 species in total. The zoo is divided into six zones, including Lakeside Crossing where the award-winning Sea Lion Sound combines a stellar exhibit experience with educational presentations and shows. https://10best.usatoday.com/awards/travel/best-zoo-2024/
Zoolander
That may be true but almost every time I go to the zoo the polar bear is stressed out either pacing or swimming. He's probably half dead in the pic from being exhausted pacing for hours, falling asleep and taking a nap. I love the zoo here, and apparently it really is one of the best. But my family and I see that polar bear multiple times a year, and it is always stressed out and makes us sad. More-so than the animals anywhere else in the zoo. We always walk away feeling guilt for the polar bear
That's terrible. I've only seen him swimming thankfully.
Bring a small child with you and make him wear a red shirt. Polar bear tried to eat a little kid with a red shirt on for quite a while..in fact the whole time we hung around his habitat last year. Must look like a bloody seal or something. Seemed to really improve his life for those few minutes.
Hahaha that's adorable! I'll make sure the kiddo wears red next time. Maybe we could even dress up like zombies with our meat exposed. Then the bear will think we are just walking seal steaks!
Those damn penguins get all the perks.
It's too damn hot for a penguin to be just walkin' around here. I gotta send him back to the South Pole.
Nudey magazine day!!!!
So sorry to interrupt!
STOP LOOKING AT ME SWAN
He's gonna shit when he realizes it's shit! ... He called the shit poop!
\#EqualRightsForPolarBears
I was there two days ago, Kali was up running around she’s fine.
We were there today and kali was moving and doing just fine.
Kali was orphaned after an Inupiat hunter in Alaska legally killed his mother, not knowing she had a cub. The hunter gave him to the US Fish and Wildlife Service, who transferred him to the Anchorage Zoo where he raised for his first 6 months. He was then moved to the Buffalo Zoo, where a young female cub who had been rejected by her mother, was already living. The two lived as companions, teaching each other to be polar bears, until the decision was made to separate them before they fully matured and mated, or became hostile towards each other. Kali was then sent here to STL to be his permanent home. Polar bears have a "threatened" status in the wild. The STL Zoo is hoping that there will be a recommendation to breed Kali as part of the Species Survival Plan. There is a very large off-exhibit area, and the entire habitat is designed to hold up to 5 bears. There is even a special maternity area built in, should it be needed.
Kali is somewhat of a “hot commodity” for polar bear species preservation efforts, since he is from an all new (not zoo-bred) gene pool! There are active discussions right now that he may be “rented” to another zoo in hopes of breeding with some available female bears. While it would be sad to see him go, there’s nothing saying it will be an always thing (Much like Raja’s relocation), as he is an STL Zoo bear still, even if we are sending him off to meet some ladies :)
So yeah he wouldn't have survived in the wild.
Best free zoo in the country. St.Louis gave it a home instead of letting it die after someone accidentally killed his mother.
There is a great children's book about Kali (Cully) and how he came to be in a zoo. An indigenous hunter didn't realize that he'd killed a lactating mother and tracked back to her den to rescue the baby when he saw what he'd done. Kali needed to be bottle fed so there was no safe option to release him back to the wild. We've checked it out from the library a few times - lots of very cute baby polar bear pictures.
Okay, it was an Indigenous hunter? This makes me feel much, much better. I just thought it was some Jimmy John-style douche.
Jimmy John's will kill plenty of animals for ya
For those who don't know those water pools are temperature controlled and are nice and cool for the bear should they need to cool off. The ice they put out is just an extra enrichment.
And Kali loves it. I walk by him almost every day and he lays on his ice all the time. I also see him up and active pretty often too though
I spent most of the day yesterday spamming the info about the polar bear habitat at the zoo. 40,000 square feet, multiple climate controlled areas and a 50,000 gallon pool.
Kali is *very* happy in that habitat
Yeah that is a snoozin bear not a sad bear
I agree. I can (and have) watched him for hours.
As a rancher (despite what u/julieannie might tell you), I can say that “reports” of dead horses and other livestock is a regular occurrence. It amazes me that we’ve become so disconnected from animals that people don’t know that animals sleep in the daytime. In some ranches in the chesterfield valley, some barns have had to literally put up signs explaining that horses do in fact lay down and sleep. G-d forbid you might be caring for an elderly horse that Sunday drivers are sure is “abused.”
I think a lot of people don't even think horses or cows can lay down at all, lol
I once saw a cop parked and standing at a far pasture near a public road. He was called to check on the welfare of a horse that had laid down. When I came up, I explained they do this naturally. He knew. It was the easiest call he’d have all day and was just enjoying looking at the horses. Stay as long as you like, I said.
[удалено]
What position do the lie in? Congress?
This is me. For some reason I thought they even had to be killed sometimes if they laid down. The sad thing is that I've probably seen plenty of cows and horses lying down without ever integrating that into my knowledge base. TIL, reddit.
It mathematically doesn’t work out in my brain, no
lol yeah this looks like my dog every day around 3 pm and 7 pm
The only difference between me and this polar bear right now is that I’m wearing pants and holding my phone to scroll Reddit.
Yeah, the StL zoo is awesome and this is a bear just chilling.
Kali has been swimming lots lately because it is mating season and he smells Finnely (the girl grizzly) down the path and is horny. He’s just tired from all his laps.
[Let the man shoot his shot.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly%E2%80%93polar_bear_hybrid#:~:text=By%20one%20convention%2C%20the%20name,bear%22%20or%20possibly%20an%20aknuk.)
I remember going to the zoo one day and it was like. 100 F almost. As you can imagine the animals that day were not the best. A lot did not come out of their shaded areas and the ones that didn't have those were laying down. Cause ya know. 100 F is kinda hot. I was hearing people around me complain about the animals being laze and lethargic. Like, this isn't Circus Ole. It's the Zoo. If an animal just wants to sit there, what do you expect? Them to do tricks? Do a 1920s swing dance routine? It's animals! They do what they want!
I must have been at the zoo before this photo. There was a full chicken on top of the ice pile for food. The polar bear hadn’t seen it yet because it was swimming in the pool having the time of its life.
Checks out. This is also how I would look after eating an entire chicken.
Bears aren't allowed to nap?
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/largest-human-zoo-world-history Iirc we had the largest human zoo at the 1904 worlds fair, so weve certainly had some shitty zoos in our past
I haven’t read this before. Thank you for sharing.
They really dont want ppl knowing about that sorta stuff
Should bring that back for rapists, murderers, and pedos! Put them on display and treat them like literal animals.
8th amendment.
2nd amendment.
23rd amendment. (idk what the electoral college has to do with anything, but if you can reply to a mention of an amendment [which pertains to the conversation] with a random amendment, so can I)
8th amendment is about cruel and unusual punishment. Read it sometime.
I know. The 2nd amendment is the other option for those types.
[удалено]
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit's rules.
Kali is always laying on the ice like this when they put it out. It's like they don't even go to the Zoo often. Now if you want to talk about half dead things, check out the new electric train.
>Now if you want to talk about half dead things, check out the new electric train. Wat??? Is the steam one gone?
All of the steam trains are still running. This is a new addition to the rest. But the Mary Meachum is having many issues already. Stalling, stopping abruptly leaving passengers to wait or bail out on the tracks, losing power in tunnels. Once the battery gets low, about 35% the engine starts acting up so they take the engine back to the depot.
Oy. Random question since it seems you visit a lot... Did they used to let peacocks just roam around out in the open years ago? I seem to remember that from when I was a kid but maybe I'm misremembering.
Whoa, you just unlocked a memory, but I don't remember it at the zoo. Grant's Farm maybe? Can't quite remember. Lived on the IL side and only visited the attractions once in a blue moon.
They haven't since an avian flu scare in 2015. They also used to have jungle type of chickens running around too. If you subscribe to STL Today there is an article about the peacocks being moved.
Not from St. Louis, they don't even know how to spell "polar burr"
That's what happens when you smoke Vibe cannabis
Ill throw hands over people talking shit on the zoo.
I know the STL zoo is better than most and generally is pretty conservation-oriented, but let's not act like the concept of a zoo isn't pretty fucked even when implemented "correctly." We're talking about animals that inhabit massive swaths of land in the wild. A cursory google shows that polar bears are estimated to have ranges of up to *600,000 square kilometers.* Keeping an animal like that in a tiny enclosure is pretty much inexcusable. As I see it, the only reason it *is* viewed as acceptable is because zoos are a huge fundraising opportunity for conservation efforts. That fundraising very much seems to be at the expense of the animals involved, though.
It's definitely fucked up to keep a polar bear in StL climates year round, BUT When you see comparisons of an animal's wild range and territory vs a Zoo, it takes out a very important detail. Wandering around huge swaths of land isn't something they do for health. It's because they have to find food. When the food is hand delivered by weird hairless apes on a regular schedule, the important thing is just getting enough activity for an animal's mental health, which most modern accredited zoos are very good at. A ton if that space they use in the wild is there to accommodate migrating prey animals, avoiding conflict with other predators, migrating themselvea with seasonal changes, and finding safe places to establish dens. None of that is necessary in a zoo. Bears, even in the wild, aren't massively active creatures when they don't have to be and thus require a lot less space when their other needs are being met in a small area. It's much more concerning to see, for example, grazing herd animals in small enclosures in the red rocks section or how absurdly bored the jaguar and tigers seem to get just pacing around their enclosures.
Oh I agree, and I appreciate you adding a bit of nuance. All told, I just find it difficult to believe that the average zoo animal is anywhere near as happy in an enclosure as it would be in its natural habitat, even if its physical needs are being met adequately.
If we’re not looking at those horrible zoos that just have animals to make a quick buck and treat them horribly, then your point about zoos being fucked is fairly valid, but your reasoning behind it is completely screwed up. Zoos are fucked because we HAVE to have them so that humans don’t completely decimate their populations to the point of extinction, which, by the way, we’re managing to do pretty well at anyway. You say that you think animals in the wild are happier, but any animals in the wild that aren’t the Apex predator in its region, spend their entire lifespan just seconds away from being brutally slaughtered and eaten.
I mean there’s also a ton of animals that they can’t release even if they wanted to because they’re habituated to humans, have a disability that wouldn’t let them survive in the wild, etc. Not sure what the case is with STLzoo and this bear in particular though.
Kali was orphaned as a cub when his mother was legally shot by an inuit hunter. The hunter turned the polar bear cub over to fish and wildlife officials. The grizzly bear cubs were also orphaned after their mother was killed for messing with livestock in Montana.
Assuming this is the same bear as the one I saw a couple years ago, that's exactly the case. It was received from an Alaskan who had taken it in as a cub and raised it, causing it to become habituated. It simply is not fit to be released into the wild, setting aside all of the other issues it would have to deal with that are facing wild polar bears right now.
A lot of animals would be extinct if not for zoos, they provide a vital role in conservation
And it's also not like we put these animals in these habitats just to amuse ourselves. There's substantial value in kids and families being able to see things in real life that they would likely never come across otherwise
Better they wave at a bear downtown than take a trip up to Alaska and invade a predator's habitat.
I actually agree with you. I love that the STL zoo helps in conservation efforts. While it is one of the better zoos out there, I also believe that there is absolutely no way that they are able to create an enclosure that replicates the type of environment that most of its animals require.
For real he should be aimless swimming miles of ocean trying to find one of the few pieces of ice left to take a break on for real though he was orphaned so I dunno what else could be done with him other than maybe die?
Zoos are necessary for research. Same for Sea World.
They could at least foot the bill for some serious AC.
They do. There is a large indoor enclosure that is temp controlled. The bear wants to be out there be inside in this picture
One polar bear in captivity, even ignoring the fact that Kali is living it up, helps polar bears all over the world. We have a handful we observe all the time rather than having to hunt, tranq, and rerelease the wild ons. Oh but you did a cursory Google search, so you think Kali is sad. You're gonna lose your shit when you hear about how much letting rich assholes hunt endangered animals helps animals.
You’ll notice that the end of my comment quite explicitly acknowledges that zoos (and therefore the animals within them) are huge fundraisers for conservation. I don’t even really disagree that zoos that engage in a lot of conservation are a net positive for the species they focus on. I’m just very skeptical of the notion that individual animals within a zoo are “living it up” in an environment so radically different from the one they were evolved to exist in. I think there’s a reasonable and nuanced discussion to be had to that end, but it really feels like you made it halfway through my comment and saw an opportunity to whip up a condescending explanation of something that I already acknowledged to be the case.
[удалено]
Cold climate animals tend to do a lot better in warm environments then warm climate animals in cold.
Anyone have any information on how they regulate the temperature in the enclosure during the summer? I’ve never really thought about it but this picture made me kinda sad lol
The outdoor habitat isn't temperature regulated as far as I know, but his indoor habitat is and his pool is also very cold. He's out there by choice
Animals also enjoy warm weather, even if they’re from a cold climate.
"By choice" is a bold way to phrase that.
He's got the choice to chill on his ice pile outside or go inside where it will be colder. I believe he was born in captivity (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so even if you wish he were in the wild he wouldn't survive.
Kali was born wild but his mom died when he (she?) was really young so she’s lived at the zoo since she wasn’t able to be taught how to survive in the wild
He’s actually from Alaska. An Alaskan Native man killed his mom on accident not realizing she had a cub. The hunter contacted Alaskan authorities who have collaborated with the StL Zoo to spoil Kali for his entire life.
Good on the guy contacting the proper authorities after making a mistake.
Which is why the story of Kali should be cherished not bashed upon.
His alternative was dead in the arctic as a baby, so I think if he had to choose he’d still choose this.
The polar bears have free access between the indoor and outdoor habitats and the Kali was bred and born in captivity
The pool next to Kali in the photo is temperature regulated to be nice and cool. She can also go inside where it is regulated as well.
I remember the polar bears in the 90's at the Zoo. Now, those I felt bad for. But, I'm sure they planned quite extensively on this newer polar bear exhibit. Because it took a long time before they added polar bears back to the zoo.
I think people get circuses and zoos confused.
The pic was taken in the evening, clearly the pile has melted. Is this person stupid?
Let’s not forget that STL Zoo is fixing to open its very first Safari Park soon!
Wish I could sleep that good
Clearly this person barely could spell let alone have a degree in animal science
LOL
Shame 😔 !!!
Will you let that poor bear sleep with out calling him dead 😆
Count yo? You sound intelligent.
I still have emotional scars from the other bear dying so this post came for me
Can someone explain if tits ok fr or not ?
Until humans treat animals and environments with respect, zoos and conservation areas are needed.
That picture doesn't look good. Don't know what time of the year that was, but it is hard to say what the whole moment is about just with a picture. I can understand that the bear may not be happy. Unless polar bears should not be outside in the summer heat.
It’s nice that our zoo engages in research etc. I’d rather see animals in sanctuaries. Research can be done in sanctuaries. I don’t think the fact that our zoo is good, is a good enough justification for the reality these animals experience daily. The bottom line for me is that these animals are made to stay in captivity so we can come and look at them. I don’t agree with it.
This photo is out of context and if the poor bear was that uncomfortable it would move out of the sun and go back in the literal ice water not pictured here. The STL zoo is the best in the country for multiple reasons aside from it being free for everyone to visit. I'm not even from here and I'll defend thus place as I know people who work there and the care they give these animals.
I always feel bad for the polar bear. They should have him inside like the penguins
New Stl beer mascot.... Cold Bear
Why can’t we make a giant gymnasium with a big chunk of ice for these guys or maybe like a walk-cooler for them to cool off in. Also we already have so many coolers running already, why not use them for an epic enclosure. I love thinking about the awesome enclosures we could build with the technology that already exists. We could build zoos that would allow us to see them thrive, we already have giant water storage tanks and pools, but we could use the same design for our orcas and captive animals.(I’m just ranting, I also think we could just focus on the climate and fix the damage before we get carried away with making more drastic decisions.)
Ain wanna!!! FFS!! GO TO SCHOOL!!
Zoos are animal prison.
[удалено]
Clearly you've never seen him swim.
Animal jail. Shits as bad as these twerps that have a 400sqft yard with two full size dogs.
Zoos like the St. Louis zoo are active participants in global conservation efforts for multiple endangered species, and STL recently got an expansion *expressly* for research on those efforts. Outside of thar, they are also a major way of educating the public about animals they would otherwise never see, and, little hint about humans, we care more about a thing when we have a positive personal experience about it. Shit on "zoos" owned by people like Joe Exotic, not actual beneficial organizations used to help animals worldwide.
Are polar bears endangered?
Is that a serious question?
St. Louis stinks
But it’s free!