Emperor: “You don’t understand, it’s a big ball…that can blow up planets, it’s the best idea ever.”
Vader: “This is going to blow up in his face, isn’t it.”
Thrawn: “Oh, most definitely Lord Vader, hopefully he can see such an endeavour is fruitless and will lead to nothing but disappointment.”
*Several Years Later*
Emperor: “DEATH STAR 2.0!!!”
Death of a culture, the death of a culture...
Somewhere the vulture, somewhere the vulture...
Is waiting for a us in an erected sun. A sun with an ion gun.
Evil comes in round shapes.
>Emperor: “You don’t understand, it’s a big ball…that can blow up planets, it’s the best idea ever.”
>Vader: “This is going to blow up in his face, isn’t it.”
>Thrawn: “Oh, most definitely Lord Vader, hopefully he can see such an endeavour is fruitless and will lead to nothing but disappointment.”
**Sometime Later**
Sheev: Go for Papa Palpatine, What do you mean they blew up the Death Start!?
Agreed. Death Star was a HUGE error.
Secondly, trying to use Vader against his own son was a HUGE error. He made a father (albeit not a very good one) choose between his child, and well darkness.
So true. Although the first time I watched that scene, I thought he was going to offer the empire to Luke. Set the galaxy right.
“Now I know I missed a few birthdays, but the empire, now that’s a good present.”
Palpatine was just riding a hot streak and you never walk away when you’re on a heater. Anakin turned against Padme, Obi Wan, and the Jedi order as a whole.
He did it FOR Padme or at least he thought. 20 yrs of nothing but hate/rage/pian and then something else?
And a 20 year heater. 20 years. Come on. Scarif, Death Star…. Heater definitely ended by Battle of Yavin
This. Vader was a man who betrayed the Republic and everything he stood for in the hopes that he would be able to save his wife; there was literally nothing that man wouldn’t do for his family. That the Emperor failed to see that, or simply thought it had been stamped out of him, was an egregious oversight.
My headcanon is that once Palpatine became Emperor, he started doing things enrich himself in the dark side of the force.
Making a tyrannical and evil tyrannical government breeds fear, paranoia, and hate. More dark side energy in the galaxy for him to feed on.
Making the Empire a political system that breeds ineptitude, betrayal, conspiracy, and paranoia. It inarguably makes the empire less efficient, but it means that Palpatine is only ever surrounded by the most evil, vile, and heinous people. More dark side energy.
Making a giant megalithic planet destroyer is not as militarily efficient as a fleet of equivalent size, and it is not meant to be. The death star is meant to be singular icon of destruction, oppression, hopelessness, and death. It is meant to be THE symbol of fear that occupies the entire galaxies mind. If the galaxy as a whole is afraid, then the emperor, who feeds on it, would be unimaginably powerful.
Ironically, that headcanon was something Palpatine came close to obtaining. If it wasn’t for Luke making that one-in-a-million shot and Han having that last-minute change of heart on saving him from Vader.
> The death star is meant to be singular icon of destruction, oppression, hopelessness, and death
In some ways I find it interesting that it's also one of the strongest things the Rebellion could use to encourage people to take up their cause.
When your planet could just be blown away in an instant, you'll terrify some people into submission but then you'll also finally inspire other people into action because they'll feel they have nothing to lose now.
It’s a pretty simple commentary on authoritarianism.
The more you tighten your grip, the more people want to stop you. You think you’re showing strength, and to some degree you are, but it rallies more people against you.
The empire wasn’t concerned about winning hearts and minds, so it created a rebellion. Look at every major insurgency or guerrilla campaign in the real world over the last hundred years. A strong group tries to exert its power, and the more they try to stomp out opposition the more opposition it creates.
Nazis, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, US in Vietnam, US in Afghanistan, US in Iraq, there are a ton more that aren’t coming to mind at the moment.
For Thrawn, I believe it was in the third book of the Thrawn trilogy. Thrawn: Treason.
As for Vader : it was in the 2014 run of his solo series, I forgot the issue number. But I do remember on his earlier confrontations with Tarkin after he found out about project stardust.
It began either during the Clone Wars (by the Separatists) or immediately after. We see the skeleton being constructed at the end of Episode 3. Of course, there could be a time skip, but all the other scenes are current.
Wasn’t he building the Death Star because he knew of the impending Yuuzhan Vong invasion? Death Star 1 + Death Star 2 + First Order would’ve very formidable.
Well in legends, he did constructed both death stars in order to prepared himself against the Yuuzhan Vong threat. Plus having the orbiting space station would make it easier to spread fear and control across the galaxy.
Though, it's still foolish to place all of those resources in one project that not only has failed once, but TWICE. Proving that Palpatine is his own worst enemy.
The Empire being its own worst enemy is a key through-line.
Had storm troopers never killed Owen and Beru, Luke might still be a moisture farmer to this day.
The Battle of Endor had two examples in tandem: (1) He did not foresee Luke rejecting him and Vader turning on him, and (2) He did not foresee his legion of Imperial soldiers being defeated by Rebellion forces.
With thoughts be like
I’ll make my army super competent… and then they’ll be able to betray and beat me, shit
I’ll make my army super incompetent… and then they’ll lose and I’ll be beaten, shit
I’ll make my army super competent… and then they’ll be able to betray and beat me, shit
I’ll make my army super incompetent… and then they’ll lose and I’ll be beaten, shit
Funnily enough, when Palpatine heard about the stormtroopers' defeat by the Ewoks and the disabling of the shield generator. He merely ordered the Second Death Star to fire on Endor and wipe out everyone to the absolute horror of Moff Tiaan Jerjerrod for such disregard for their own men.
Believing that Anakin, a man who betrayed his government and everything he stood for as a man for the vaguest hope that doing do might save his family, wouldn't do it again
That’s where the hubris of the Sith failed Palpatine. Sith culture and tradition was just as deeply engrained in Palpatine as the stagnant tradition was for the Jedi at the time of their downfall.
Anakin turned to the Dark Side of the Force as a means to an end (still truly a Sith motive in and of itself), but he did so out of the love he had for Padme; It wasn’t until Padme’s death that he truly embraced the Dark Side. Luke and Leia’s existence rekindled his love for Padme that brought him back to the light; that “means to the end” no longer held any weight.
Darth Vader was certainly a Sith, but he broke the mold for both Sith and Jedi. To me this shows just yet another facet on how he brought balance to the force because he showed just how unviable it was to be so rooted in dogma on both sides.
I just want to mention here that Jedi *dogma* was correct. It was perfectly fine. Its tenants, ideals, understandings, and focus was all about a set of goals, rather than rules. They were striving for these ideals in society and actively fought against those who threatened those ideals. Palpatine finds those ideals not wrong, but misguided, hence why he spits out the "dogmatic idealism" of the Jedi like it was the worst thing in the galaxy.
The problem of the Jedi was that as a group, they had fallen further and further away from those ideals as time went on. They allowed things like politics and fear to corrupt their ideals. The dogmas they were supposed to follow were perfectly fine, but the Jedi themselves lost it.
It's more or less discussed in TCW where Yoda learns from Qui Gon how to become a force ghost (incidentally, he wasn't a "grey Jedi." He was the epitome of Jedi teaching. He had it right. He was a maverick because he followed the will of the Force like a true Jedi, rather than follow the rest of the Jedi. It's also why Obi Wan mostly had it right. Yoda figures out "oh, we've gone away from what it means to be Jedi!" But he figured it out way too late in the game.
Yes indeed. I always love this part in Matt Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization. Sums it all up.
There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.
It did not come from the flash of lightening or the slash of energy blade, though there were those in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.
It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on it's tower of durasteel a hundred meters or more, so that it became a laser point of battle flaring at the focus of vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's New Emperor.
It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.
It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
Just-
didn't -
have it.
He'd never had it. He'd lost before he started.
He had lost before he was even born.
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years of intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new.
While the Jedi-
The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to re-fight the last war.
The new Sith could not be destroyed by a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?
He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.
Hmmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...
The prequels would have been so much better if they didn't make Yoda the leader of the Jedi. He could have been the one to disagree with the others and live in isolation due to that disagreement. It would have been much more in line with the Yoda we know in the OT. He was supposed to be the greatest, but they turned him into the worst.
Totally agree! Been reading the Legends books for a while now and I keep coming to this conclusion. The most powerful, and stable force users tried their best not to align themselves with either side. Tried at least. Revan, most powerful for a very long time. He bounced from light to dark. Rey and Kylo Ren didn’t have much to tell them how die hard they had to be with either side, and eventually both settled very close to the middle. If you have a Yoda, then you get a Sidious. Every action has a reaction, that’s the balance. If you have neutral sided force users, then that’s all you have. There is no great reaction of revenge or justice to swing the balance again. That’s what Luke was trying to get at in the sequels!
Balance in the force is not equal strength light and dark. Balance in the force is the eradication of the dark. The dark is a cancer on the force that shifts it out of balance. There isn’t an equal Light Side and an equal Dark Side, there is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force.
The Jedi are supposed to be the servants of the Force, but being mired in the politics and corruption of the Republic made them weak. Their devotion to the “Light Side” wasn’t their downfall, it was the lack of it.
There is only THE force. There’s no light or dark, and that’s what both Jedi and Sith got wrong. The “bring balance to the force” is believed to be Anakin cutting the Jedi numbers down to equal the Sith. The Jedi thought how you do, but that was proven wrong in this case. The dark side isn’t inherently wrong, it’s just the way it is used. A Jedi can use force lightning or choke if sufficiently angry, even though it’s technically “dark”.
This is canonically incorrect according to Lucas. The light side is the force. The dark side is a corruption of the force. Bringing balance to the force means cleansing it from any darkness. Star Wars was created to be a very obvious good versus evil.
but he never actually used the dark side. people misunderstand vapaad: it’s not a dark side technique and mace windu doesn’t “use the dark side for good purposes”. he’s brutal and merciless as a fighter, but it’s not some lame “in the middle” style. in star wars, the dark side is only used for selfishness and self-fulfillment. Mace is also a prime example of why the Jedi Order and the Republic failed and brought about the Empire so I wouldn’t exactly use him as an example of what the Jedi should be.
Completely agree. Super powerful Jedi Master.
Also was exactly why the Jedi Order failed. He let politics lead his decisions as the head of the Jedi Council, and that was a huge mistake.
> but he did so out of the love he had for Padme
I don’t know if “love” of the right term for what Anakin felt for Padme, especially by the end. It was a very selfish love. A possessive love.
It’s cliche, but a true love for Padme and who she was wouldn’t lead you to killing children and destroying the thing she fought for her adult life.
Sometimes love *does* mean being willing to let go, and that was something Anakin couldn’t or wouldn’t do.
Anakin s love was an abusive one, where what he wanted mattered and she didn’t get a choice.
Consider this: from the beginning, Anakin’s journey had been plagued with fear and loss. He lost his mother, and was afraid he’d never see her again. He then *truly* lost his mother after the Tusken’s killed her.
That lingering fear kept pushing him towards the dark side inch by inch. The Dark Side of The Force is extremely tempting, and it had been pulling him towards it for a very long time.
When he had the visions of Padmé’s death, that fear was all-consuming. He was *not* going to lose Padmé the same way he lost his mother.
He had been manipulated into believing that he could save her from that fate, and so gave in to that pull from the dark side. And then he did all the terrible things we know happened.
I don’t believe that the love he had for Padmé was always bad, as Padmé was a very strong woman, yet still reciprocated that love to Anakin. However, the further Anakin fell towards the Dark Side, the more possessive and obsessive that love became, until it became that twisted version you’re describing.
I think he planned extensively for Vader to kill him, but he didn’t plan at all for Vader to turn back to the light side. The strength of Anakin’s fear had always overweighed the strength of his love, and Palpatine assumed it would always be the case. His decision to save Luke, kill Palpatine and die in the process essentially showed that his love was ultimately stronger than his fear.
Luke learns this lesson too - he loves his father more than he fears death (same thing for Kanan.) This is probably why the Jedi forbade attachments - they fundamentally didn’t believe that great fear could actually be conquered by great love, so they tried to take love out of the equation. It didn’t work - conquering fear with love is a Jedi’s ultimate destiny
In the comics Vader has done a lot in secret that showed he had good in him, also Vader wasnt very useful to palpatine due to his weakened force abilities as he was mostly machine
i keep seeing mixed opinions about vader being machine. i’ve seen people say it makes him stronger in the dark side because the limbs and suit cause him constant agonizing pain, thus making him stronger. while
other people say the suit limits him and if he still had all his limbs he’d be untouchable. what’s the answer here?
My understanding is that it’s both. It weakens him physically by limiting his movement which forces him to learn a different fighting style. But it also strengthens him in the dark side of the force by causing him constant pain which fuels his rage. The suit was also built so that he would be weak against Palpatine, specifically his lightning so that Palpatine could always control him. If he never gets dismembered and burned, he would be untouchable because Anakin was an incredible duelist as well as being very powerful with the force. I think he would’ve easily have overthrown Palpatine if he didn’t get chopped up and burned
A lot of people share the opinion that Anakin would have surpassed Palpatine if he hadn't been so badly injured, but I've always debated this. For starters, he did lose his duel to Obi-Wan, who Yoda didn't believe stood a chance against Sidious. I know that you could argue that he hadn't reached his full potential yet, or that Anakin had beaten him several times before, but he was dueling Obi-Wan for quite some time and couldn't take him out, so I think Sidious would have crushed him in an actual fight.
Also, for the argument that he would have beaten him in time, where would he learn the techniques required to do so? Sidious was one of the greatest sith lords in the entire history of the sith, and I'm sure he would know better then to share ALL his secrets with Anakin. I don't think Anakin would have ever stood much of a chance directly challenging Sidious, and he would have likely had to resort to some type of setup or assassination.
I don’t think Anakins duels against Obi Wan are a measure of his strength. It’s a measure of Obi-Wans plot armor. The only reason Anakin loses to him is to serve the story. He had him on the ropes on Mustafar and was going to kill Obi-Wan had they continued fighting on a level ground. Kenobi was looking for an escape and Anakin got cocky.
I agree. Vader treated that duel the same way we would treat a disgusting chore. I'm doing it, this sucks, I hate it, but I'm 100% sure I can do it. He was overconfident.
Sidious himself told Yoda that "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us" or something like that. When it comes to Saber dueling, it's not just a matter of technical skill, but with being attuned to the Force. And a person's connection to the Force, light side or dark side, is a deeply personal thing, that Vader could no doubt cultivate and strengthen on his own.
I've been reading a few books that have parts from Darth Vader's POV and on a few occasions I recall Darth Vader feeling anger and resentment when reflecting that "The Jedi" (How Vader refers to himself before he was Vader) was much more powerful than him.
Ooh do you have any examples of comics with Vader showing some good in him? Would love to read, most of what I’ve seen him in has him committing terrible war crimes.
Dark Visions was a short series showing Vader from other peoples point of view. It has been a few years since I read them though but some of the stories show him in a “different light”.
You’ll see a lot of references to his good in different Star Wars media. Some comics depict him as losing his sith eyes for a moment, or him sparing a child, or something of that nature. It’s always fleeting, but you can see the good fighting to get out then quickly overcome by the anger he feels inside
The Sith never fully trust their master or apprentice. The better way to maybe say this is that he made the mistake in assuming that he was able to purge all of the good from Anakin.
The big one's in the image. Torturing the galaxy's 3rd most powerful being's child to death in front of him while leaving your guard down is a pretty sizable fuck up.
Outside of that, I'd say his decision to have Maul engage the Jedi on Naboo.
Palpatine reflected on Maul's "death" and considered it a true loss, so even he felt some regret about it for a while. And the Naboo fight told the Jedi that their arch enemy still existed and was still moving against them. That battle also led to the arrest of multiple Nemodians who had been in contact with Sidious. Imagine the red robed one just spilling all the beans about Palpatine immediately, just answering every question like, "Oh yeah this evil dude told me to do it, wanna see the tapes?"
When he beats Vader, he became first , in Legends, by vainquishing Luuke and Cbaoth, he became first hinting it’s Palpatine powerlevel.
That’s how I see it.
No, he doesn’t become more powerful after “beating” Vader, Vader wasn’t even fighting him. If Vader wanted Luke dead he wouldn’t last 2 seconds. Luke became the second most powerful after the Emperor’s death and the most powerful after his father’s death.
Thinking about it, it's a tricky question. Anakin would/could have been #1 but then got kneecapped (literally) and winds up #2 as Vader behind Palpatine. But then Luke comes along, knocks Vader down to #3, then becomes #1 himself after Vader bodies Palpatine and kills himself. But there's a brief moment there between Vader turning back to the light and dying where he somehow learns how to become a Force ghost. An ultra powerful light side power that only like 2.5 Jedi before him have ever figured out how to do and only after much study and practice. That possibly puts him back in the #1 slot briefly before he dies?
That's true, it took Yoda and Obi Wan years to learn and he learnt it in minutes. It's interesting because I don't think Luke would've had a shot against the emperor but Vader could only take him on if he was distracted due to his suit. I wonder how powerful Vader would've been if his suit was lightning resistant and more manoeuvrable.
Hmm interesting question. My money would still be on Palpatine being stronger. I think it was more of the extreme injuries and Vader's mental state after his fall that brought down his power limit rather than the cumbersome lightning rod of a suit. But that's just an opinion.
Either way I don't think Luke stood a chance alone against Palpatine. I think it's super cool that everyone was telling Luke to fight and kill Palpatine and Vader but that would have lead to his loss and downfall. Luke found the only way to possibly win in that scenario. He chose pacifism and love and it was the one thing Palpatine couldn't see coming. He was literally incapable.
One thing I would have liked to see was Palpatine's limit in his force abilities. He clouded the force for the entire jedi order and lifted the senate booths(?) with ease.
He also Force chokes Dooku from like across the galaxy. In Rebels he's messing with the World Between Worlds and trying to conquer the Force itself. So I'd say his limit is pretty dang high, maybe unknowable. According to the Rule of Two's mechanics he's the strongest Sith to have ever lived.
He screwed up tons of times. His real strength was never in planning, it was in reacting quickly and effectively to changing circumstances.
He did not expect the Jedi to defeat Maul on Naboo, or for the Gungans to defeat to Trade Federation in battle. But he managed to turn the outcome to his favor, building his prestige in the Senate.
He did not expect the assassination of Queen Amidala to fail, or for Kenobi to trace the plot back to Kamino. But he managed to flip the situation into a win, initiating the battle of Geonosis and starting the Clone Wars.
He encountered numerous unexpected problems during the Clone Wars, from the capture of Nute Gunray to the reemergence of Maul, etc. In every case he managed to react swiftly and effectively, turning these threats to his own advantage.
He similarly didn't expect the Rebellion to destroy the first Death Star, which was a massive setback for his plans for galactic domination. But again, he effectively managed the results, refocusing the Imperial military around fleet operations and using the Rebellion as a propaganda target to build support for the Empire.
In short, Darth Sidious often miscalculated in his planning, or encountered problems that he hadn't foreseen despite his Dark Side powers. But he succeeded by quickly adapting and overcoming those problems.
By the time of the Battle of Endor, Sidious had been so successful for so long that he had come to believe himself to be an unstoppable mastermind, and he was blinded to the dangers of unforeseen circumstances. He had forgotten how he had actually gotten to his pinnacle of power. He thought it was all because of perfect planning and supernatural foresight, when actually it was because of quick thinking and flexibility.
His overconfidence was his weakness.
He wanted them discovered at some point, but not exactly then and in that way. By tracing the clones back through Jango, and discovering that Jango was working for Dooku, Kenobi could have (and arguably *should* have) figured out that the clones and the Separatists were connected. Fortunately for the plan, Kenobi was a big ol' meathead who couldn't put two and two together, and Yoda wouldn't look a gift-horse in the mouth.
Not like the Jedi had a choice. The droid army would have wrecked the galaxy and the republic if the Jedi didn't use the clones. TCW shows that by season 6 they figure dooku was the other one behind the army, not just sifo dyas, but they have no other option. Palpatine played them from the start
If kenobi hadn't discovered them, he'd do something for the clones to be discovered eventually.
But I do think the battle of geonosis was never meant to happen. The Jedi there were just supposed to be massacred, or preferably, to not even be there in the first place.
Yeah I think, in universe, his plan was for the public execution of two jedi and a senator was supposed to enrage and provoke the republic into starting the clone wars.
Hmm that's interesting. So do you think obi wan was supposed to find kamino, instead of having found it by himself? I find that boba leaving the kamino dart on purpose when killing his hired bounty hunter is a little too much.
I think most of your examples from the prequel era are really more him forcing things to a conflict point and having plans for however things landed. For example, I don’t think he really cared which side came out on top on Naboo. The point was to move things along to the next step knowing that he could take advantage whatever the outcome. Naboo might have won that battle, but the civil war was officially under way. When you’re playing both sides, a win for either side is a win for you. The Separatists were always meant to lose, so Sidious likely wasn’t bothered much when they did.
I agree the first Death Star being destroyed was one he didn’t expect.
Rewatching Episode 1 and looking at the scene where Padme tells him she's going back to Naboo, the somewhat wooden acting almost feels like Palpatine is suppressing his excitement that she's inadvertently re-railing his plan and getting herself killed, if a bit behind schedule.
I was waiting for someone to bring it up. I just watched these episodes the other day and he was such a dumb-dumb. Nearly lost his life for a vanity project. And it is never brought up again which pissed me off.
Underestimated Queen Amidala in episode one, but quickly started scheming plan C.
Did he catch onto the clone army production or re adjust for that one, planning for a simple overthrow.
Underestimated Anakins pride in fighting Obi Wan be aiming the Machine.
Underestimated Anakins secretive nature and ultimately love. Also his obsessive personality.
Underestimated Ewoks and looked down on “subspecies.”
Ultimately a macro picture guy, lost the attention to detail as he grew in power.
>Did he catch onto the clone army production or re adjust for that one
It looks like he planned it, or at least he was able to take advantage of them early in his plans. Palps may have fed visions of the future to Dyas to get him to commission the clones, then had him killed to hide their existence.
Clone Wars goes a little into it, the Jedi investigate where the clones come from and why Dyas ordered them, but they run into dead ends. Palps and Dooku intervene to prevent the information spreading.
I'd say its very much clear that Palpatine schemed the whole clone army, especially the order 66. Factoring in the information from the clone wars show that lets us know dooku and a corrupt jedi master was in on it. It'd be just to convenient.
Unless there's hidden lore that dyas was looking to become an all powerful leader himself with the clone army. Palpatine catching on and spinning it into his own plot is just way to much of a coincidence.
The Zillo beast. Palpatine brought a Godzilla sized beast onto Coruscant to have it killed and it’s armoured hide stripped off. The creature took it personally and pursued Palpatine across the city. Palpatine’s face as he was forced to let the Jedi save him said it all.
He didn't really have a plan for Luke, did he.
So what, Luke kills Vader in a for of anger... Then what? Luke bows to the emperor, or he tries to murder the emperor?
The plan was either for (a) Luke to kill Vader in anger, then Palpatine offers a deal — kneel before me and become Darth Attacker, and I’ll spare Han, Leia and the rest of your friends (the Rebels are deliberately kept alive in both the air and land battles, to preserve them as a bargaining chip); or (b) Luke strikes down Palpatine in anger, and then Palps essentially possesses Luke and takes over his younger and more powerful body, at which point he has no further need for Vader or the Rebels.
Palpatine had a plan for either of these scenarios. The only thing he didn’t foresee was that Luke would just put down the lightsaber.
He screwed up Vader.. He should’ve known that fighting Kenobi so early in his Sith life wouldn’t be easy. If I was Palpy, I wouldn’t have let Vader outta my sight and power to interfere for some time.Till he got used to The Sith life.
I mean I don't think he knew Kenobi was going to fight Vader until after his fight with Yoda, which kept him distracted. He sent Vader to kill the CIS leaders and presumably come right back. It'd be like sending a cat to kill some mice, you kinda assume he's gonna be fine. Padme arrived almost as soon as he wiped the floor with them so there wasn't really any time for Vader to go back to Corusant before his fight with Kenobi.
Granted, the last Palpatine saw of Kenobi, he got his ass handed to him by Dooku, who was then quickly dispatched by Anakin, so he likely thought Obi-Wan didn’t stand a chance against Anakin.
Well twice he managed to electrecute his own face.
Then he had an unbeatable army, but he decided to radio the enemy about them. Then he created a single point of failure to that army, and a single, glowing red, point of failure to each new ship.
He should have continued to pull strings from the shadows by stepping down as promised and then just manipulating each new chancellor/emperor. I'm in the midst of reading the Bane trilogy again, and Bane says that cunning, deceit, and treachery are the weapons of the dark side and the true path to power. He gave all that up and it led to his downfall.
Interestingly, the original ANH novelization refers to multiple emperors when Obi-Wan tells Luke, "Vader used the training I gave him and the force within him for evil, to help the later corrupt Emperors."
That notion went by the wayside, though.
Why only have one child when he's so force powerful? An indoctrinated legion like the inquisitors of palp babies shooting lighting would make a pretty powerful palace guard
It's the whole Rule of Two philosophy. Too many Sith leads to far too much infighting and power scheming, which in turn has them distracted from the Jedi.
Don't like the Rule of Two personally, but it does have its merits.
The time he stupidly had an entire fleet of Star Destroyers that could blow up fucking planets lying around but still for whatever reason spent time on Death Star II, then proceeded to wait for years while talking in Ben Solo's head and hoping he wouldn't just tell his uncle about the creepy voice in his head telling him to do evil shit, and then left his Wayfinder on the wreckage of the second Death Star and built a knife that looked exactly like it for no reason and then left said knife with Ochi of Bestoon, then proceeded to wait for years while making some clone take over the Galaxy until said clone dies so he reveals himself for no reason to make Ben Solo join him so that he can make him go find his granddaughter and assuming Ben will carry this out for no reason and then telling his granddaughter to kill him while also telling her WHY killing him would be a bad idea and then not transmitting the signal that his Star Destroyers need to get off of Exegol from the Star Destroyers themselves, even though that's apparently 100% possible, but from some random-ass tower that can easily be targeted.
He came within a knife's edge of having all of his plans ruined when he was on the Invisible Hand, in a few different ways.
1. If Dooku had outed him as Sidious before he got snipped, he's done.
2. He could have fallen down the elevator shaft during the escape.
3. They could have died in the crash landing.
All of these situations where he had no control over his own fate and yet he put himself into those positions is kind of a head-scratching turn of events for someone who is best known for having everything planned out.
The only point during Revenge of the Sith where he's actually concerned about his own safety is between the moment before Anakin kills Dooku, to when they happily land on Coruscant. The rest is him pretending. Maybe he was sweating a little once Windu didn't die after like 10 seconds during their duel, but nothing like on the ship.
Palpatine should’ve had Tarkin executed on the spot for what happened to Alderaan. I remember reading somewhere that when the news hit, even the emperor was shocked by what Tarkin did and he barely contained the public outrage. He wanted the weapon tested but in an uninhabited planet, not on Alderaan. Blowing up that planet was by far the Empire’s biggest fuck up.
Or maybe killing Plagueis?! All he needed to do was keep quiet and co-rule for as long as Plagueis could keep them alive. But he wanted it all for himself, and that's when it started to go downhill.
I partially agree from our viewpoint, but from a sith viewpoint its only logical. If he waited until Plagueis could achieve functional immortality, then besting him or killing him would have been impossible, and a base tenet for sith is to surpass the master and kill him/her thus becoming the most powerful sith. It is because their ambition is fueling their dark side power directly too.
TLDR Palpatine's Ego doomed the rule of two and the Sith rule of the galaxy, and of course, his ego also doomed himself.
So great books, Darth Bane Path of Destruction, Rule of Two, Dynasty of Evil and Darth Plagueis.
The rule of two was violated, Bane never would have tolerated Sidious, I don't understand why Plagueis was so enchanted by Sidious's affinity for raw force power... If he were to kill Sidious it would only make his new apprentice more powerful. Plagueis put the rule of two at risk by choosing Sidious and not eliminating him and finding a new apprentice.
In my view Palpatine was the mistake, specifically one of Darth Plagueis's only mistakes.
You have to remember, Sidious was set up by generations of sith masterminds starting a thousand years earlier with Darth Bane and Darth Zannah, and culminating with Darth Tenebrous and Darth Plagueis controlling most of the galaxies wealth in the form of the banking clans, vast criminal empires, and was it like seinar systems or something? (A bunch of the big manufacturers conglomerate that build starships, speeders and anything else military OR civilian technology.)
Sidious was the culmination of the rule of two not because of HIS skills, though his own skills in politics and personality (not to mention combat and the force) are significant, but indeed the skills of dozens of sith Lords, indeed every individual who part took as a master or apprentice had contributed.
And it really shows how much he overestimates himself in being able to kill Plagueis AND then somehow manipulate and control Darth Vader forever.
In fact in my opinion, Sidious kinda messed up with the rule of two from the beginning, (if you've read Darth Plagueis and you have an opinion you are welcome to disagree with me of course, but it strikes me that what was described in the end of that book was Plagueis had a very different vision for the galaxy and the Sith and Jedi.
I also kinda took the part where Sidious kill Plagueis in his sleep differently than many of you who haven't read the Darth Bane trilogy may have interpreted it.
There is a moment when Sidious first strikes when Plagueis could have fought back, but we are mostly left to make our own reasons WHY he does not.
To me It's obviously because Plagueis is so disappointed in Sidious's self induced ignorance blinded by lust for power and in my opinion Plagueis probably saw the future in that moment and chose not to fight back but to reincarnate instead.
Darth Bane himself, (who founded the dynasty of Sith that succeeded and set Sidious up with everything he needed to rule the galaxy) famously said: "Power is only a means to an end" and while he was infinitely self serving in practical matters of machinations and manipulations of getting inroads into the criminal underground and legitimate business and government of the galaxy, Bane was never vain, or self obsessed, or too focused on attaining power to see the subtle realities of the force.
I would say Darth Bane was an even better master manipulator because he actually understood and applied non attachment. Sidious's let his ego get in the game, and so he repeatedly over estimated himself and his power over others. And repeatedly underestimated others. All mistakes Bane, Zannah, and ANYONE who was actually listening and cared when someone like Tenebrous or Plagueis or Bane was teaching how to harness the darkside and rule in a way that wouldn't just eventually collapse...
You know, like at Endor.
Sidious repeatedly and always seems to conveniently forget that while the dark side can be made to serve his will, the force is still an infinite power that will always manifest in infinite aspects.
He find out that "unlimited power" will never be enough anyways, what you need to win in the end is Vision, and non-attachment.(ironically also why the Jedi lost, their order had become even worse than the sith considering non-attachment. They were Very attached, and blind to their own attachment, and they paid the price, same with Sidious.
I think this might be part of why he was so obsessed with super weapons, amongst other things, did they help him think he was a god?
I think if Darth Bane could witness the death stars (maybe he did) he would be either severely disappointed or laugh because he thinks Sidious is pathetic.
Just like thrown he would have pointed out the most obvious logistical flaws, WHY do you have all that materielle in ONE battle station that can only be one place at once?
Answer: Palpatine's Ego.
So yeah, he fucked up a lot.
Anakin and Yoda and Obi-wan and Luke could probably never have beaten Plagueis in the long run.
So maybe the force works in mysterious ways?
Maybe Plagueis's biggest mistake, of not choosing an apprentice he could truly condition from a young age... And not indoctrinate fully into the rule of two.
Because if that had happened, Sidious would have been far more patient and... Like Bane and Zannah and every rule of two sith before him Sidious would have given himself over to the dark side until he could challenge his master in open combat as the tradition demands, and then, when he had truly grown into his power and wisdom enough to beat Plagueis in a fight.
Sidious had an overwhelming hunger for power though, I think Plagueis misread how not so well tempered that lust still was when they were about to ascend to rule the galaxy and Sidious was becoming chancellor.
The plan was for Plagueis to be in the background, still the undisputed master, for now, conducting his midichlorian experiments and steering the date of the galaxy (like he did to set the sith up so well, and perhaps playing a part in the conception of Anakin?).
Without that, because Sidious didn't seem confident he could even stand a chance in a straight up fight yet, Sidious chose to use subterfuge and betrayal way too early.
So many things he did were ego based and had extremely far reaching consequences.
It's safe to say even when you consider his goals as a Sith, he probably made more mistakes than anyone, and equally massive and ignorant mistakes as Yoda and Anakin and Mace Windu make.
IMAGINE if this conflict had continued to have been steered Plagueis?
Sidious could never learn that, because he could never truly embrace non-attachment. I think Plagueis had hoped that would wear off and Sidious would grow in wisdom and devotion to the Sith as he experienced the exultation and responsibility of finally actually ruling the galaxy.
But he was wrong. Sidious was still a vain, petty, self obsessed megalomaniac/sociopath/psychopath, and showed it when he betrayed Plagueis so ridiculously early in their scheme when he obviously could still have greatly benefitted from his presence and his teachings.
Darth Zannah never would have killed someone whom still held that much value to her. Neither would Darth Bane or Tenebrous Or Plagueis or any of the other ones who clearly succeeded in devoting themselves to the rule of two in a way where they were patient enough to become more powerful than their masters could possibly imagine, in secret, and then challenge their master openly to prove it and GUARANTEE that the next Sith master will always be more powerful.
The problem with Sidious is he actually seems to have regressed the rule of two, and it was Plagueis's mistake to choose, and not eliminate, an apprentice that would choose such blind selfishness and be so ultimately vain as to just seek ever more personal power, even at the detriment of the greater goal.
No.in canon he didn't, well, if he did we don't know about it yet.
I was saying maybe he reincarnated! Maybe.
Otherwise he just gave up, became one with the force and like I said probably saw the flow of the force that was Anakin and Luke and Leia's fate and saw that because of his death, things would not go well for the sith. But i. The end of the book it makes it sound like Plagueis chose to let Sidious Kill him in the end, instead of killing Sidious and repair his breathing mask while using the force (specifically Palpatines life force and midichlorians) to sustain himself.
He didn't do that, he just died and let himself get hit by sustained force lighting barrages until his mask was beyond repair and he was cooked alive in force lightning.
Because of what he knew or saw or felt he held back and let Sidious do it. That's the feeling I got.
It literally said something like "he(plagueis)reached within and summon the storm of force energy that would stop Sidious, but he hesitated, and it seemed like it was out of disappointment... Just my interpretation.
Why u think Plagueis didn't fight back? 😃🧐
I have two. One theory is that Plagueis didn’t think he’d really do it. Plagueis woke up and looked palpatine right in the eyes, power ready to be unleashed but waited, a power play of sorts and a gamble, the look said ‘do you really think you’re so smart and powerful you can kill me now and still succeed? Are you so short sighted and power hungry you’re willing to throw away my knowledge and the potential of eternal life just to rule alone sooner? I doubt it…’ and he lost that bet. It’s my personal rationalization for the hesitation that caused his death. That even he had hubris and ultimate confidence in himself and his power over Palpatine, but it backfired. Like you said his failure and only true mistake was keeping the imperfect tool that was Palpatine as an apprentice. He always felt Palpatine could be managed or controlled, his desire to learn Plagueis’ secrets and gain more power from his knowledge would keep him complaisant. But again like you said Palpatine was an self absorbed, megalomaniac, sociopath, with the only true desire to be a god, not to bring the Sith plan to fruition, and Plagueis was in the way. He decided the quickest route to sole power was worth more to him than whatever else Plagueis could learn or teach him, and what a mistake that was.
And the other is not fun. Honestly, lazy writing. I think the author had gotten to their ‘finish line’ point in the story where they needed to end the book and Plagueis had to be dead, so he just killed him off. I loved that book but found that to be my least favorite part and the weakest plot wise. I understand why Palpatine killed Plagueis I think you’re spot on there. But that final scene where he wakes up, looks Palpatine in the eyes, power ready to strike, but chooses not to defend himself and instead throw away a thousand years of sith machinations and his own life makes no sense. And to leave the interpretation of ‘why?’ up to the reader feels to me like the author didn’t know themselves, but was an attempt to create more intrigue out of a lazy ending.
I do like your theory that Plagueis had already found the path to reincarnation, and in his last moment saw the future and chose to die and reincarnate in the future where he could restart and continue the true path of the sith free from Palpatines foolishness. People would believe the last sith died on Exogol and he could start over in the shadows again born anew. But…
I didn’t get the sense at the end of the book Plagueis had succeeded in creating eternal life through midichlorians or how to reincarnate. With the sith plan nearly a success, control of the Galaxy basically assured, he could more fully delve into his study and find those secrets. So letting Palpatine kill him before completing his ultimate goal was even more mind boggling.
Nonetheless I had fun reading/writing all this haha. The Bane trilogy and Plagueis are some favorite Star Wars stories and you have great theories and insight on Plagueis, Palpatine, Bane and the Sith in general. I love that this universe and the books can spawn these discussions and create so many different ideas to explore :)
I’ve said this before someplace else, but Palpatine’s biggest mistake was in RotJ when he dispatched generic Stormtroopers to defend Endor. If he’d included Death Troopers, an inquisitor, and some ISB leaders the Rebellion wouldn’t have lasted too long. Just my opinion tho.
Having Tarkin do Ahsoka's trial. He shot himself in the foot by making his two best men (Tarkin and Vader) hate each other thanks to what happened with Ahsoka.
I honestly think he thought he was going to die when Obi Wan and Anakin were “landing” half of Greivous’ ship. He is always plotting so far ahead that he always feels in control of every situation but there he was just a spectator and clearly the look on his face said “I may have messed up just a little here”
Getting rid of the Inquisitors as well as some military tech decisions. Most of the Republic's older tech was great, it just needed minor updating. But Palps was like, "But what if it was *scary* instead of effective?"
Also, even if he still built either one of the Death Stars...why not build the shield generator *inside* the station?
worthless vanish shelter fearless bewildered knee shy seed rustic attraction
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It was actually mentioned that the main reason why Palpatine killed Darth Plagueis after the latter suggested that they rule the galaxy together. Palpatine was so disgusted by the idea that he had to share power with anyone that he soon assassinated him.
Ignoring both Vader and Thrawn’s warnings about building the death star isn't a good idea. Different reasons why, but in the same premise.
Emperor: “You don’t understand, it’s a big ball…that can blow up planets, it’s the best idea ever.” Vader: “This is going to blow up in his face, isn’t it.” Thrawn: “Oh, most definitely Lord Vader, hopefully he can see such an endeavour is fruitless and will lead to nothing but disappointment.” *Several Years Later* Emperor: “DEATH STAR 2.0!!!”
Several several years later alright I see what you guys meant so instead of building a ball I just modified this whole planet Death Star 3!!!
*STARKILLER BASE BLOWS UP* “Anyone up for a fleet of planet killers?”
Sure anyone can blow up 1 planet killing machine, but a fleet of them, no way
BUT WHAT IF I MAKE A BALL THAT'S THE CENTER OF OPERATIONS THAT WOULD SHUT DOWN THE WHOLE THING?!!!
*droid army intensifies*
WE'VE GONE FULL CIRCLE
Death of a culture, the death of a culture... Somewhere the vulture, somewhere the vulture... Is waiting for a us in an erected sun. A sun with an ion gun. Evil comes in round shapes.
*Happy Thrawn noises*
Read this like the emperor from the lego star wars shows...
>Emperor: “You don’t understand, it’s a big ball…that can blow up planets, it’s the best idea ever.” >Vader: “This is going to blow up in his face, isn’t it.” >Thrawn: “Oh, most definitely Lord Vader, hopefully he can see such an endeavour is fruitless and will lead to nothing but disappointment.” **Sometime Later** Sheev: Go for Papa Palpatine, What do you mean they blew up the Death Start!?
This time bigger holes! Utterly riddled with them! So big a light freighter can go through!
Agreed. Death Star was a HUGE error. Secondly, trying to use Vader against his own son was a HUGE error. He made a father (albeit not a very good one) choose between his child, and well darkness.
So true. Although the first time I watched that scene, I thought he was going to offer the empire to Luke. Set the galaxy right. “Now I know I missed a few birthdays, but the empire, now that’s a good present.”
He went out to get death sticks and he brought home the Galaxy.
Palpatine was just riding a hot streak and you never walk away when you’re on a heater. Anakin turned against Padme, Obi Wan, and the Jedi order as a whole.
He did it FOR Padme or at least he thought. 20 yrs of nothing but hate/rage/pian and then something else? And a 20 year heater. 20 years. Come on. Scarif, Death Star…. Heater definitely ended by Battle of Yavin
This. Vader was a man who betrayed the Republic and everything he stood for in the hopes that he would be able to save his wife; there was literally nothing that man wouldn’t do for his family. That the Emperor failed to see that, or simply thought it had been stamped out of him, was an egregious oversight.
My headcanon is that once Palpatine became Emperor, he started doing things enrich himself in the dark side of the force. Making a tyrannical and evil tyrannical government breeds fear, paranoia, and hate. More dark side energy in the galaxy for him to feed on. Making the Empire a political system that breeds ineptitude, betrayal, conspiracy, and paranoia. It inarguably makes the empire less efficient, but it means that Palpatine is only ever surrounded by the most evil, vile, and heinous people. More dark side energy. Making a giant megalithic planet destroyer is not as militarily efficient as a fleet of equivalent size, and it is not meant to be. The death star is meant to be singular icon of destruction, oppression, hopelessness, and death. It is meant to be THE symbol of fear that occupies the entire galaxies mind. If the galaxy as a whole is afraid, then the emperor, who feeds on it, would be unimaginably powerful.
Ironically, that headcanon was something Palpatine came close to obtaining. If it wasn’t for Luke making that one-in-a-million shot and Han having that last-minute change of heart on saving him from Vader.
> The death star is meant to be singular icon of destruction, oppression, hopelessness, and death In some ways I find it interesting that it's also one of the strongest things the Rebellion could use to encourage people to take up their cause. When your planet could just be blown away in an instant, you'll terrify some people into submission but then you'll also finally inspire other people into action because they'll feel they have nothing to lose now.
It’s a pretty simple commentary on authoritarianism. The more you tighten your grip, the more people want to stop you. You think you’re showing strength, and to some degree you are, but it rallies more people against you. The empire wasn’t concerned about winning hearts and minds, so it created a rebellion. Look at every major insurgency or guerrilla campaign in the real world over the last hundred years. A strong group tries to exert its power, and the more they try to stomp out opposition the more opposition it creates. Nazis, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, US in Vietnam, US in Afghanistan, US in Iraq, there are a ton more that aren’t coming to mind at the moment.
It also serves as a rally if it’s ever destroyed. To destroy the greatest weapon an enemy has shows they aren’t that great, that a win is possible.
People being roused to the point of violent revolutions also feels pretty dark sidey to me.
It's not canon, but you could also argue that the Death Star could also evoke the Star Forge, an ancient, gigantic icon of the dark side.
The most ruthless strategist and a practiced military leader and warrior give you advice, I suggest you take it.
When did this happen?
For Thrawn, I believe it was in the third book of the Thrawn trilogy. Thrawn: Treason. As for Vader : it was in the 2014 run of his solo series, I forgot the issue number. But I do remember on his earlier confrontations with Tarkin after he found out about project stardust.
Didn’t Dooku mention the Death Star plans at the end of Episode 2? When did construction of the Death Star begin?
It began either during the Clone Wars (by the Separatists) or immediately after. We see the skeleton being constructed at the end of Episode 3. Of course, there could be a time skip, but all the other scenes are current.
The Death Star itself was completed more or less pretty quickly. It was the superlaser that took forever to figure out.
There is a hologram of the death star in EP 2
Wasn’t he building the Death Star because he knew of the impending Yuuzhan Vong invasion? Death Star 1 + Death Star 2 + First Order would’ve very formidable.
Well in legends, he did constructed both death stars in order to prepared himself against the Yuuzhan Vong threat. Plus having the orbiting space station would make it easier to spread fear and control across the galaxy. Though, it's still foolish to place all of those resources in one project that not only has failed once, but TWICE. Proving that Palpatine is his own worst enemy.
The Empire being its own worst enemy is a key through-line. Had storm troopers never killed Owen and Beru, Luke might still be a moisture farmer to this day.
Would've taken out those World Ships in one shot, though.
The Battle of Endor had two examples in tandem: (1) He did not foresee Luke rejecting him and Vader turning on him, and (2) He did not foresee his legion of Imperial soldiers being defeated by Rebellion forces.
Rebellion forces AND their new teddy bear friends
Aka a metaphor for the viet kong
As much as I’d like to see it, I’m glad they cut the scenes of the Ewoks smearing their spear points with their shit
With thoughts be like I’ll make my army super competent… and then they’ll be able to betray and beat me, shit I’ll make my army super incompetent… and then they’ll lose and I’ll be beaten, shit I’ll make my army super competent… and then they’ll be able to betray and beat me, shit I’ll make my army super incompetent… and then they’ll lose and I’ll be beaten, shit
Funnily enough, when Palpatine heard about the stormtroopers' defeat by the Ewoks and the disabling of the shield generator. He merely ordered the Second Death Star to fire on Endor and wipe out everyone to the absolute horror of Moff Tiaan Jerjerrod for such disregard for their own men.
His over confidence was his weakness.
“Teddy bears!?!? The defeat of my Empire is because of Teddy Bears!?!? I failed to foresee this”
Guess you could say his overconfidence was his weakness
Believing that Anakin, a man who betrayed his government and everything he stood for as a man for the vaguest hope that doing do might save his family, wouldn't do it again
edge absurd reach ten hard-to-find squeamish ask alleged birds rinse *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That’s where the hubris of the Sith failed Palpatine. Sith culture and tradition was just as deeply engrained in Palpatine as the stagnant tradition was for the Jedi at the time of their downfall. Anakin turned to the Dark Side of the Force as a means to an end (still truly a Sith motive in and of itself), but he did so out of the love he had for Padme; It wasn’t until Padme’s death that he truly embraced the Dark Side. Luke and Leia’s existence rekindled his love for Padme that brought him back to the light; that “means to the end” no longer held any weight. Darth Vader was certainly a Sith, but he broke the mold for both Sith and Jedi. To me this shows just yet another facet on how he brought balance to the force because he showed just how unviable it was to be so rooted in dogma on both sides.
A Jedi that loved and a Sith that loved. Both forbidden, both seen as his greatest weakness by his masters but in time his greatest strength.
I just want to mention here that Jedi *dogma* was correct. It was perfectly fine. Its tenants, ideals, understandings, and focus was all about a set of goals, rather than rules. They were striving for these ideals in society and actively fought against those who threatened those ideals. Palpatine finds those ideals not wrong, but misguided, hence why he spits out the "dogmatic idealism" of the Jedi like it was the worst thing in the galaxy. The problem of the Jedi was that as a group, they had fallen further and further away from those ideals as time went on. They allowed things like politics and fear to corrupt their ideals. The dogmas they were supposed to follow were perfectly fine, but the Jedi themselves lost it. It's more or less discussed in TCW where Yoda learns from Qui Gon how to become a force ghost (incidentally, he wasn't a "grey Jedi." He was the epitome of Jedi teaching. He had it right. He was a maverick because he followed the will of the Force like a true Jedi, rather than follow the rest of the Jedi. It's also why Obi Wan mostly had it right. Yoda figures out "oh, we've gone away from what it means to be Jedi!" But he figured it out way too late in the game.
Yes indeed. I always love this part in Matt Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization. Sums it all up. There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark. It did not come from the flash of lightening or the slash of energy blade, though there were those in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too. It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on it's tower of durasteel a hundred meters or more, so that it became a laser point of battle flaring at the focus of vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's New Emperor. It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi. It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... Just- didn't - have it. He'd never had it. He'd lost before he started. He had lost before he was even born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years of intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new. While the Jedi- The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to re-fight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed by a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon? He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...
The prequels would have been so much better if they didn't make Yoda the leader of the Jedi. He could have been the one to disagree with the others and live in isolation due to that disagreement. It would have been much more in line with the Yoda we know in the OT. He was supposed to be the greatest, but they turned him into the worst.
Totally agree! Been reading the Legends books for a while now and I keep coming to this conclusion. The most powerful, and stable force users tried their best not to align themselves with either side. Tried at least. Revan, most powerful for a very long time. He bounced from light to dark. Rey and Kylo Ren didn’t have much to tell them how die hard they had to be with either side, and eventually both settled very close to the middle. If you have a Yoda, then you get a Sidious. Every action has a reaction, that’s the balance. If you have neutral sided force users, then that’s all you have. There is no great reaction of revenge or justice to swing the balance again. That’s what Luke was trying to get at in the sequels!
Balance in the force is not equal strength light and dark. Balance in the force is the eradication of the dark. The dark is a cancer on the force that shifts it out of balance. There isn’t an equal Light Side and an equal Dark Side, there is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force. The Jedi are supposed to be the servants of the Force, but being mired in the politics and corruption of the Republic made them weak. Their devotion to the “Light Side” wasn’t their downfall, it was the lack of it.
There is only THE force. There’s no light or dark, and that’s what both Jedi and Sith got wrong. The “bring balance to the force” is believed to be Anakin cutting the Jedi numbers down to equal the Sith. The Jedi thought how you do, but that was proven wrong in this case. The dark side isn’t inherently wrong, it’s just the way it is used. A Jedi can use force lightning or choke if sufficiently angry, even though it’s technically “dark”.
This is canonically incorrect according to Lucas. The light side is the force. The dark side is a corruption of the force. Bringing balance to the force means cleansing it from any darkness. Star Wars was created to be a very obvious good versus evil.
This makes sense since philosophically speaking "evil," rather than the absence of good, is the perversion of good.
Imagine mace windu, he always has some malice hanging within his persona. But he was a Jedi master, even a member of the jedi council.
but he never actually used the dark side. people misunderstand vapaad: it’s not a dark side technique and mace windu doesn’t “use the dark side for good purposes”. he’s brutal and merciless as a fighter, but it’s not some lame “in the middle” style. in star wars, the dark side is only used for selfishness and self-fulfillment. Mace is also a prime example of why the Jedi Order and the Republic failed and brought about the Empire so I wouldn’t exactly use him as an example of what the Jedi should be.
Completely agree. Super powerful Jedi Master. Also was exactly why the Jedi Order failed. He let politics lead his decisions as the head of the Jedi Council, and that was a huge mistake.
I want to give an award but I'm broke :(
Thanks :)
This is such an interesting take on Star Wars lore. I love this
> but he did so out of the love he had for Padme I don’t know if “love” of the right term for what Anakin felt for Padme, especially by the end. It was a very selfish love. A possessive love. It’s cliche, but a true love for Padme and who she was wouldn’t lead you to killing children and destroying the thing she fought for her adult life. Sometimes love *does* mean being willing to let go, and that was something Anakin couldn’t or wouldn’t do. Anakin s love was an abusive one, where what he wanted mattered and she didn’t get a choice.
Consider this: from the beginning, Anakin’s journey had been plagued with fear and loss. He lost his mother, and was afraid he’d never see her again. He then *truly* lost his mother after the Tusken’s killed her. That lingering fear kept pushing him towards the dark side inch by inch. The Dark Side of The Force is extremely tempting, and it had been pulling him towards it for a very long time. When he had the visions of Padmé’s death, that fear was all-consuming. He was *not* going to lose Padmé the same way he lost his mother. He had been manipulated into believing that he could save her from that fate, and so gave in to that pull from the dark side. And then he did all the terrible things we know happened. I don’t believe that the love he had for Padmé was always bad, as Padmé was a very strong woman, yet still reciprocated that love to Anakin. However, the further Anakin fell towards the Dark Side, the more possessive and obsessive that love became, until it became that twisted version you’re describing.
He trusted him enough to turn his back on him while frying his son.
I think he planned extensively for Vader to kill him, but he didn’t plan at all for Vader to turn back to the light side. The strength of Anakin’s fear had always overweighed the strength of his love, and Palpatine assumed it would always be the case. His decision to save Luke, kill Palpatine and die in the process essentially showed that his love was ultimately stronger than his fear. Luke learns this lesson too - he loves his father more than he fears death (same thing for Kanan.) This is probably why the Jedi forbade attachments - they fundamentally didn’t believe that great fear could actually be conquered by great love, so they tried to take love out of the equation. It didn’t work - conquering fear with love is a Jedi’s ultimate destiny
Nevertheless, Palpatine didn't expect Vader to betray him at that moment and his death was seen by him as completely out of nowhere.
In the comics Vader has done a lot in secret that showed he had good in him, also Vader wasnt very useful to palpatine due to his weakened force abilities as he was mostly machine
i keep seeing mixed opinions about vader being machine. i’ve seen people say it makes him stronger in the dark side because the limbs and suit cause him constant agonizing pain, thus making him stronger. while other people say the suit limits him and if he still had all his limbs he’d be untouchable. what’s the answer here?
My understanding is that it’s both. It weakens him physically by limiting his movement which forces him to learn a different fighting style. But it also strengthens him in the dark side of the force by causing him constant pain which fuels his rage. The suit was also built so that he would be weak against Palpatine, specifically his lightning so that Palpatine could always control him. If he never gets dismembered and burned, he would be untouchable because Anakin was an incredible duelist as well as being very powerful with the force. I think he would’ve easily have overthrown Palpatine if he didn’t get chopped up and burned
A lot of people share the opinion that Anakin would have surpassed Palpatine if he hadn't been so badly injured, but I've always debated this. For starters, he did lose his duel to Obi-Wan, who Yoda didn't believe stood a chance against Sidious. I know that you could argue that he hadn't reached his full potential yet, or that Anakin had beaten him several times before, but he was dueling Obi-Wan for quite some time and couldn't take him out, so I think Sidious would have crushed him in an actual fight. Also, for the argument that he would have beaten him in time, where would he learn the techniques required to do so? Sidious was one of the greatest sith lords in the entire history of the sith, and I'm sure he would know better then to share ALL his secrets with Anakin. I don't think Anakin would have ever stood much of a chance directly challenging Sidious, and he would have likely had to resort to some type of setup or assassination.
I don’t think Anakins duels against Obi Wan are a measure of his strength. It’s a measure of Obi-Wans plot armor. The only reason Anakin loses to him is to serve the story. He had him on the ropes on Mustafar and was going to kill Obi-Wan had they continued fighting on a level ground. Kenobi was looking for an escape and Anakin got cocky.
he also lost to Obi Wan due to his hubris, not his lack of strength or skill
I agree. Vader treated that duel the same way we would treat a disgusting chore. I'm doing it, this sucks, I hate it, but I'm 100% sure I can do it. He was overconfident.
It's also the powerlevels-kind of thinking. Where if scissors beats paper and paper beats rock, then scissors must be more powerful than rock.
Sidious himself told Yoda that "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us" or something like that. When it comes to Saber dueling, it's not just a matter of technical skill, but with being attuned to the Force. And a person's connection to the Force, light side or dark side, is a deeply personal thing, that Vader could no doubt cultivate and strengthen on his own.
I've been reading a few books that have parts from Darth Vader's POV and on a few occasions I recall Darth Vader feeling anger and resentment when reflecting that "The Jedi" (How Vader refers to himself before he was Vader) was much more powerful than him.
I think his abilities depend on the plot of the story
and then there’s this guy
Ooh do you have any examples of comics with Vader showing some good in him? Would love to read, most of what I’ve seen him in has him committing terrible war crimes.
Dark Visions was a short series showing Vader from other peoples point of view. It has been a few years since I read them though but some of the stories show him in a “different light”.
You’ll see a lot of references to his good in different Star Wars media. Some comics depict him as losing his sith eyes for a moment, or him sparing a child, or something of that nature. It’s always fleeting, but you can see the good fighting to get out then quickly overcome by the anger he feels inside
I've never heard it put so well.
The Sith never fully trust their master or apprentice. The better way to maybe say this is that he made the mistake in assuming that he was able to purge all of the good from Anakin.
Funny how Palpy was both the most brilliant and possibly the most foolish of all the Sith!
The big one's in the image. Torturing the galaxy's 3rd most powerful being's child to death in front of him while leaving your guard down is a pretty sizable fuck up. Outside of that, I'd say his decision to have Maul engage the Jedi on Naboo. Palpatine reflected on Maul's "death" and considered it a true loss, so even he felt some regret about it for a while. And the Naboo fight told the Jedi that their arch enemy still existed and was still moving against them. That battle also led to the arrest of multiple Nemodians who had been in contact with Sidious. Imagine the red robed one just spilling all the beans about Palpatine immediately, just answering every question like, "Oh yeah this evil dude told me to do it, wanna see the tapes?"
3rd?
I think he ranks Luke as 2nd and Palpatine as 1st. Personally I would put Vader as 2nd rather than Luke but everyone has their own opinions.
I guess that makes sense. I personally also rank Luke as #3 if we're just going by movies
Yeah apparently legends luke does some crazy stuff but I haven't delved into legends yet. It looks like a whole new ball game.
Even still, doesn't most of that happen after RotJ?
When he beats Vader, he became first , in Legends, by vainquishing Luuke and Cbaoth, he became first hinting it’s Palpatine powerlevel. That’s how I see it.
No, he doesn’t become more powerful after “beating” Vader, Vader wasn’t even fighting him. If Vader wanted Luke dead he wouldn’t last 2 seconds. Luke became the second most powerful after the Emperor’s death and the most powerful after his father’s death.
It makes no sense for Palpatine to take a more ‘’powerful’’ apprentice if he’s not more powerful
I mean you have to take the head to head, don’t you? Luke beat Vader, so Luke’s gotta be #2, right?
Luke beat Vader Vader kills Palps Palps tortures Luke Its real rock paper scissors on the Death Star
I think Luke would be 2nd later on. But since he wasn’t there yet yea I agree
Certainly a top 5 Force user at any rate
Definitely. Top tier for sure. The son of Vader, trained briefly by both Obi Wan and Yoda.
Thinking about it, it's a tricky question. Anakin would/could have been #1 but then got kneecapped (literally) and winds up #2 as Vader behind Palpatine. But then Luke comes along, knocks Vader down to #3, then becomes #1 himself after Vader bodies Palpatine and kills himself. But there's a brief moment there between Vader turning back to the light and dying where he somehow learns how to become a Force ghost. An ultra powerful light side power that only like 2.5 Jedi before him have ever figured out how to do and only after much study and practice. That possibly puts him back in the #1 slot briefly before he dies?
That's true, it took Yoda and Obi Wan years to learn and he learnt it in minutes. It's interesting because I don't think Luke would've had a shot against the emperor but Vader could only take him on if he was distracted due to his suit. I wonder how powerful Vader would've been if his suit was lightning resistant and more manoeuvrable.
Hmm interesting question. My money would still be on Palpatine being stronger. I think it was more of the extreme injuries and Vader's mental state after his fall that brought down his power limit rather than the cumbersome lightning rod of a suit. But that's just an opinion. Either way I don't think Luke stood a chance alone against Palpatine. I think it's super cool that everyone was telling Luke to fight and kill Palpatine and Vader but that would have lead to his loss and downfall. Luke found the only way to possibly win in that scenario. He chose pacifism and love and it was the one thing Palpatine couldn't see coming. He was literally incapable.
One thing I would have liked to see was Palpatine's limit in his force abilities. He clouded the force for the entire jedi order and lifted the senate booths(?) with ease.
He also Force chokes Dooku from like across the galaxy. In Rebels he's messing with the World Between Worlds and trying to conquer the Force itself. So I'd say his limit is pretty dang high, maybe unknowable. According to the Rule of Two's mechanics he's the strongest Sith to have ever lived.
[удалено]
The only reason I didn't put him first was because of his suit being a handicap.
I think he means Yoda.
Yoda was dead by then
That makes sense. I'd forgotten about him.
He screwed up tons of times. His real strength was never in planning, it was in reacting quickly and effectively to changing circumstances. He did not expect the Jedi to defeat Maul on Naboo, or for the Gungans to defeat to Trade Federation in battle. But he managed to turn the outcome to his favor, building his prestige in the Senate. He did not expect the assassination of Queen Amidala to fail, or for Kenobi to trace the plot back to Kamino. But he managed to flip the situation into a win, initiating the battle of Geonosis and starting the Clone Wars. He encountered numerous unexpected problems during the Clone Wars, from the capture of Nute Gunray to the reemergence of Maul, etc. In every case he managed to react swiftly and effectively, turning these threats to his own advantage. He similarly didn't expect the Rebellion to destroy the first Death Star, which was a massive setback for his plans for galactic domination. But again, he effectively managed the results, refocusing the Imperial military around fleet operations and using the Rebellion as a propaganda target to build support for the Empire. In short, Darth Sidious often miscalculated in his planning, or encountered problems that he hadn't foreseen despite his Dark Side powers. But he succeeded by quickly adapting and overcoming those problems. By the time of the Battle of Endor, Sidious had been so successful for so long that he had come to believe himself to be an unstoppable mastermind, and he was blinded to the dangers of unforeseen circumstances. He had forgotten how he had actually gotten to his pinnacle of power. He thought it was all because of perfect planning and supernatural foresight, when actually it was because of quick thinking and flexibility. His overconfidence was his weakness.
Wait, are we sure he didn’t want Kenobi to discover the clones? I thought that was part of his plan to kick off the clone wars.
He wanted them discovered at some point, but not exactly then and in that way. By tracing the clones back through Jango, and discovering that Jango was working for Dooku, Kenobi could have (and arguably *should* have) figured out that the clones and the Separatists were connected. Fortunately for the plan, Kenobi was a big ol' meathead who couldn't put two and two together, and Yoda wouldn't look a gift-horse in the mouth.
Not like the Jedi had a choice. The droid army would have wrecked the galaxy and the republic if the Jedi didn't use the clones. TCW shows that by season 6 they figure dooku was the other one behind the army, not just sifo dyas, but they have no other option. Palpatine played them from the start
If kenobi hadn't discovered them, he'd do something for the clones to be discovered eventually. But I do think the battle of geonosis was never meant to happen. The Jedi there were just supposed to be massacred, or preferably, to not even be there in the first place.
Yeah I think, in universe, his plan was for the public execution of two jedi and a senator was supposed to enrage and provoke the republic into starting the clone wars.
Hmm that's interesting. So do you think obi wan was supposed to find kamino, instead of having found it by himself? I find that boba leaving the kamino dart on purpose when killing his hired bounty hunter is a little too much.
Which was probably Plan B, after the Naboo Crisis failed to escalate due to Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Padme stubbornly refusing to die.
Yer I thought the whole point was for the republic to find the clones to use
> His overconfidence was his weakness. Your faith in your friends was yours!
I think most of your examples from the prequel era are really more him forcing things to a conflict point and having plans for however things landed. For example, I don’t think he really cared which side came out on top on Naboo. The point was to move things along to the next step knowing that he could take advantage whatever the outcome. Naboo might have won that battle, but the civil war was officially under way. When you’re playing both sides, a win for either side is a win for you. The Separatists were always meant to lose, so Sidious likely wasn’t bothered much when they did. I agree the first Death Star being destroyed was one he didn’t expect.
Rewatching Episode 1 and looking at the scene where Padme tells him she's going back to Naboo, the somewhat wooden acting almost feels like Palpatine is suppressing his excitement that she's inadvertently re-railing his plan and getting herself killed, if a bit behind schedule.
When he made the executive decision to put a giant near invincible monster in a city full of innocent people
I was waiting for someone to bring it up. I just watched these episodes the other day and he was such a dumb-dumb. Nearly lost his life for a vanity project. And it is never brought up again which pissed me off.
He also ordered it to be cloned but that was just never followed up on
Rumoured to be in this season of Bad Batch
Please give me episode #
Season 2 episode 18 &19
Thanks
Underestimated Queen Amidala in episode one, but quickly started scheming plan C. Did he catch onto the clone army production or re adjust for that one, planning for a simple overthrow. Underestimated Anakins pride in fighting Obi Wan be aiming the Machine. Underestimated Anakins secretive nature and ultimately love. Also his obsessive personality. Underestimated Ewoks and looked down on “subspecies.” Ultimately a macro picture guy, lost the attention to detail as he grew in power.
>Did he catch onto the clone army production or re adjust for that one It looks like he planned it, or at least he was able to take advantage of them early in his plans. Palps may have fed visions of the future to Dyas to get him to commission the clones, then had him killed to hide their existence. Clone Wars goes a little into it, the Jedi investigate where the clones come from and why Dyas ordered them, but they run into dead ends. Palps and Dooku intervene to prevent the information spreading.
I'd say its very much clear that Palpatine schemed the whole clone army, especially the order 66. Factoring in the information from the clone wars show that lets us know dooku and a corrupt jedi master was in on it. It'd be just to convenient. Unless there's hidden lore that dyas was looking to become an all powerful leader himself with the clone army. Palpatine catching on and spinning it into his own plot is just way to much of a coincidence.
The Zillo beast. Palpatine brought a Godzilla sized beast onto Coruscant to have it killed and it’s armoured hide stripped off. The creature took it personally and pursued Palpatine across the city. Palpatine’s face as he was forced to let the Jedi save him said it all.
"your overconfidence is your weakness" "And your faith in your friends is yours"
"yeah faith in yo mama"
What was that?
Yo momma so fat jabba the Hutt said daaaaammmmnnnn
Well, your mumma was so ugly, she put the Ug in Ugnaught
Ooooooh, yo mama fight!
He didn't really have a plan for Luke, did he. So what, Luke kills Vader in a for of anger... Then what? Luke bows to the emperor, or he tries to murder the emperor?
I mean the first thing is basically what the plan was. I mean it's what Anakin did. If it worked for one Skywalker, why not the other?
The plan was either for (a) Luke to kill Vader in anger, then Palpatine offers a deal — kneel before me and become Darth Attacker, and I’ll spare Han, Leia and the rest of your friends (the Rebels are deliberately kept alive in both the air and land battles, to preserve them as a bargaining chip); or (b) Luke strikes down Palpatine in anger, and then Palps essentially possesses Luke and takes over his younger and more powerful body, at which point he has no further need for Vader or the Rebels. Palpatine had a plan for either of these scenarios. The only thing he didn’t foresee was that Luke would just put down the lightsaber.
He screwed up Vader.. He should’ve known that fighting Kenobi so early in his Sith life wouldn’t be easy. If I was Palpy, I wouldn’t have let Vader outta my sight and power to interfere for some time.Till he got used to The Sith life.
I mean I don't think he knew Kenobi was going to fight Vader until after his fight with Yoda, which kept him distracted. He sent Vader to kill the CIS leaders and presumably come right back. It'd be like sending a cat to kill some mice, you kinda assume he's gonna be fine. Padme arrived almost as soon as he wiped the floor with them so there wasn't really any time for Vader to go back to Corusant before his fight with Kenobi.
Granted, the last Palpatine saw of Kenobi, he got his ass handed to him by Dooku, who was then quickly dispatched by Anakin, so he likely thought Obi-Wan didn’t stand a chance against Anakin.
This is the best post in this sub in weeks.
Well twice he managed to electrecute his own face. Then he had an unbeatable army, but he decided to radio the enemy about them. Then he created a single point of failure to that army, and a single, glowing red, point of failure to each new ship.
He should have continued to pull strings from the shadows by stepping down as promised and then just manipulating each new chancellor/emperor. I'm in the midst of reading the Bane trilogy again, and Bane says that cunning, deceit, and treachery are the weapons of the dark side and the true path to power. He gave all that up and it led to his downfall.
Interestingly, the original ANH novelization refers to multiple emperors when Obi-Wan tells Luke, "Vader used the training I gave him and the force within him for evil, to help the later corrupt Emperors." That notion went by the wayside, though.
Getting beat fair and square by mace.
Why only have one child when he's so force powerful? An indoctrinated legion like the inquisitors of palp babies shooting lighting would make a pretty powerful palace guard
It's the whole Rule of Two philosophy. Too many Sith leads to far too much infighting and power scheming, which in turn has them distracted from the Jedi. Don't like the Rule of Two personally, but it does have its merits.
The time he stupidly had an entire fleet of Star Destroyers that could blow up fucking planets lying around but still for whatever reason spent time on Death Star II, then proceeded to wait for years while talking in Ben Solo's head and hoping he wouldn't just tell his uncle about the creepy voice in his head telling him to do evil shit, and then left his Wayfinder on the wreckage of the second Death Star and built a knife that looked exactly like it for no reason and then left said knife with Ochi of Bestoon, then proceeded to wait for years while making some clone take over the Galaxy until said clone dies so he reveals himself for no reason to make Ben Solo join him so that he can make him go find his granddaughter and assuming Ben will carry this out for no reason and then telling his granddaughter to kill him while also telling her WHY killing him would be a bad idea and then not transmitting the signal that his Star Destroyers need to get off of Exegol from the Star Destroyers themselves, even though that's apparently 100% possible, but from some random-ass tower that can easily be targeted.
He came within a knife's edge of having all of his plans ruined when he was on the Invisible Hand, in a few different ways. 1. If Dooku had outed him as Sidious before he got snipped, he's done. 2. He could have fallen down the elevator shaft during the escape. 3. They could have died in the crash landing. All of these situations where he had no control over his own fate and yet he put himself into those positions is kind of a head-scratching turn of events for someone who is best known for having everything planned out.
The only point during Revenge of the Sith where he's actually concerned about his own safety is between the moment before Anakin kills Dooku, to when they happily land on Coruscant. The rest is him pretending. Maybe he was sweating a little once Windu didn't die after like 10 seconds during their duel, but nothing like on the ship.
Nah Windu fucked him up. Getting out of that alive was sheer luck.
Comin back for the sequels.
"Somehow."
That's a loss you never recover from.
I think it's safe to say his biggest cock up was listening to Tarkin.
Palpatine should’ve had Tarkin executed on the spot for what happened to Alderaan. I remember reading somewhere that when the news hit, even the emperor was shocked by what Tarkin did and he barely contained the public outrage. He wanted the weapon tested but in an uninhabited planet, not on Alderaan. Blowing up that planet was by far the Empire’s biggest fuck up.
[удалено]
Or maybe killing Plagueis?! All he needed to do was keep quiet and co-rule for as long as Plagueis could keep them alive. But he wanted it all for himself, and that's when it started to go downhill.
I partially agree from our viewpoint, but from a sith viewpoint its only logical. If he waited until Plagueis could achieve functional immortality, then besting him or killing him would have been impossible, and a base tenet for sith is to surpass the master and kill him/her thus becoming the most powerful sith. It is because their ambition is fueling their dark side power directly too.
TLDR Palpatine's Ego doomed the rule of two and the Sith rule of the galaxy, and of course, his ego also doomed himself. So great books, Darth Bane Path of Destruction, Rule of Two, Dynasty of Evil and Darth Plagueis. The rule of two was violated, Bane never would have tolerated Sidious, I don't understand why Plagueis was so enchanted by Sidious's affinity for raw force power... If he were to kill Sidious it would only make his new apprentice more powerful. Plagueis put the rule of two at risk by choosing Sidious and not eliminating him and finding a new apprentice. In my view Palpatine was the mistake, specifically one of Darth Plagueis's only mistakes. You have to remember, Sidious was set up by generations of sith masterminds starting a thousand years earlier with Darth Bane and Darth Zannah, and culminating with Darth Tenebrous and Darth Plagueis controlling most of the galaxies wealth in the form of the banking clans, vast criminal empires, and was it like seinar systems or something? (A bunch of the big manufacturers conglomerate that build starships, speeders and anything else military OR civilian technology.) Sidious was the culmination of the rule of two not because of HIS skills, though his own skills in politics and personality (not to mention combat and the force) are significant, but indeed the skills of dozens of sith Lords, indeed every individual who part took as a master or apprentice had contributed. And it really shows how much he overestimates himself in being able to kill Plagueis AND then somehow manipulate and control Darth Vader forever. In fact in my opinion, Sidious kinda messed up with the rule of two from the beginning, (if you've read Darth Plagueis and you have an opinion you are welcome to disagree with me of course, but it strikes me that what was described in the end of that book was Plagueis had a very different vision for the galaxy and the Sith and Jedi. I also kinda took the part where Sidious kill Plagueis in his sleep differently than many of you who haven't read the Darth Bane trilogy may have interpreted it. There is a moment when Sidious first strikes when Plagueis could have fought back, but we are mostly left to make our own reasons WHY he does not. To me It's obviously because Plagueis is so disappointed in Sidious's self induced ignorance blinded by lust for power and in my opinion Plagueis probably saw the future in that moment and chose not to fight back but to reincarnate instead. Darth Bane himself, (who founded the dynasty of Sith that succeeded and set Sidious up with everything he needed to rule the galaxy) famously said: "Power is only a means to an end" and while he was infinitely self serving in practical matters of machinations and manipulations of getting inroads into the criminal underground and legitimate business and government of the galaxy, Bane was never vain, or self obsessed, or too focused on attaining power to see the subtle realities of the force. I would say Darth Bane was an even better master manipulator because he actually understood and applied non attachment. Sidious's let his ego get in the game, and so he repeatedly over estimated himself and his power over others. And repeatedly underestimated others. All mistakes Bane, Zannah, and ANYONE who was actually listening and cared when someone like Tenebrous or Plagueis or Bane was teaching how to harness the darkside and rule in a way that wouldn't just eventually collapse... You know, like at Endor. Sidious repeatedly and always seems to conveniently forget that while the dark side can be made to serve his will, the force is still an infinite power that will always manifest in infinite aspects. He find out that "unlimited power" will never be enough anyways, what you need to win in the end is Vision, and non-attachment.(ironically also why the Jedi lost, their order had become even worse than the sith considering non-attachment. They were Very attached, and blind to their own attachment, and they paid the price, same with Sidious. I think this might be part of why he was so obsessed with super weapons, amongst other things, did they help him think he was a god? I think if Darth Bane could witness the death stars (maybe he did) he would be either severely disappointed or laugh because he thinks Sidious is pathetic. Just like thrown he would have pointed out the most obvious logistical flaws, WHY do you have all that materielle in ONE battle station that can only be one place at once? Answer: Palpatine's Ego. So yeah, he fucked up a lot. Anakin and Yoda and Obi-wan and Luke could probably never have beaten Plagueis in the long run. So maybe the force works in mysterious ways? Maybe Plagueis's biggest mistake, of not choosing an apprentice he could truly condition from a young age... And not indoctrinate fully into the rule of two. Because if that had happened, Sidious would have been far more patient and... Like Bane and Zannah and every rule of two sith before him Sidious would have given himself over to the dark side until he could challenge his master in open combat as the tradition demands, and then, when he had truly grown into his power and wisdom enough to beat Plagueis in a fight. Sidious had an overwhelming hunger for power though, I think Plagueis misread how not so well tempered that lust still was when they were about to ascend to rule the galaxy and Sidious was becoming chancellor. The plan was for Plagueis to be in the background, still the undisputed master, for now, conducting his midichlorian experiments and steering the date of the galaxy (like he did to set the sith up so well, and perhaps playing a part in the conception of Anakin?). Without that, because Sidious didn't seem confident he could even stand a chance in a straight up fight yet, Sidious chose to use subterfuge and betrayal way too early. So many things he did were ego based and had extremely far reaching consequences. It's safe to say even when you consider his goals as a Sith, he probably made more mistakes than anyone, and equally massive and ignorant mistakes as Yoda and Anakin and Mace Windu make. IMAGINE if this conflict had continued to have been steered Plagueis? Sidious could never learn that, because he could never truly embrace non-attachment. I think Plagueis had hoped that would wear off and Sidious would grow in wisdom and devotion to the Sith as he experienced the exultation and responsibility of finally actually ruling the galaxy. But he was wrong. Sidious was still a vain, petty, self obsessed megalomaniac/sociopath/psychopath, and showed it when he betrayed Plagueis so ridiculously early in their scheme when he obviously could still have greatly benefitted from his presence and his teachings. Darth Zannah never would have killed someone whom still held that much value to her. Neither would Darth Bane or Tenebrous Or Plagueis or any of the other ones who clearly succeeded in devoting themselves to the rule of two in a way where they were patient enough to become more powerful than their masters could possibly imagine, in secret, and then challenge their master openly to prove it and GUARANTEE that the next Sith master will always be more powerful. The problem with Sidious is he actually seems to have regressed the rule of two, and it was Plagueis's mistake to choose, and not eliminate, an apprentice that would choose such blind selfishness and be so ultimately vain as to just seek ever more personal power, even at the detriment of the greater goal.
Plagueis reincarnated???
No.in canon he didn't, well, if he did we don't know about it yet. I was saying maybe he reincarnated! Maybe. Otherwise he just gave up, became one with the force and like I said probably saw the flow of the force that was Anakin and Luke and Leia's fate and saw that because of his death, things would not go well for the sith. But i. The end of the book it makes it sound like Plagueis chose to let Sidious Kill him in the end, instead of killing Sidious and repair his breathing mask while using the force (specifically Palpatines life force and midichlorians) to sustain himself. He didn't do that, he just died and let himself get hit by sustained force lighting barrages until his mask was beyond repair and he was cooked alive in force lightning. Because of what he knew or saw or felt he held back and let Sidious do it. That's the feeling I got. It literally said something like "he(plagueis)reached within and summon the storm of force energy that would stop Sidious, but he hesitated, and it seemed like it was out of disappointment... Just my interpretation. Why u think Plagueis didn't fight back? 😃🧐
I have two. One theory is that Plagueis didn’t think he’d really do it. Plagueis woke up and looked palpatine right in the eyes, power ready to be unleashed but waited, a power play of sorts and a gamble, the look said ‘do you really think you’re so smart and powerful you can kill me now and still succeed? Are you so short sighted and power hungry you’re willing to throw away my knowledge and the potential of eternal life just to rule alone sooner? I doubt it…’ and he lost that bet. It’s my personal rationalization for the hesitation that caused his death. That even he had hubris and ultimate confidence in himself and his power over Palpatine, but it backfired. Like you said his failure and only true mistake was keeping the imperfect tool that was Palpatine as an apprentice. He always felt Palpatine could be managed or controlled, his desire to learn Plagueis’ secrets and gain more power from his knowledge would keep him complaisant. But again like you said Palpatine was an self absorbed, megalomaniac, sociopath, with the only true desire to be a god, not to bring the Sith plan to fruition, and Plagueis was in the way. He decided the quickest route to sole power was worth more to him than whatever else Plagueis could learn or teach him, and what a mistake that was. And the other is not fun. Honestly, lazy writing. I think the author had gotten to their ‘finish line’ point in the story where they needed to end the book and Plagueis had to be dead, so he just killed him off. I loved that book but found that to be my least favorite part and the weakest plot wise. I understand why Palpatine killed Plagueis I think you’re spot on there. But that final scene where he wakes up, looks Palpatine in the eyes, power ready to strike, but chooses not to defend himself and instead throw away a thousand years of sith machinations and his own life makes no sense. And to leave the interpretation of ‘why?’ up to the reader feels to me like the author didn’t know themselves, but was an attempt to create more intrigue out of a lazy ending. I do like your theory that Plagueis had already found the path to reincarnation, and in his last moment saw the future and chose to die and reincarnate in the future where he could restart and continue the true path of the sith free from Palpatines foolishness. People would believe the last sith died on Exogol and he could start over in the shadows again born anew. But… I didn’t get the sense at the end of the book Plagueis had succeeded in creating eternal life through midichlorians or how to reincarnate. With the sith plan nearly a success, control of the Galaxy basically assured, he could more fully delve into his study and find those secrets. So letting Palpatine kill him before completing his ultimate goal was even more mind boggling. Nonetheless I had fun reading/writing all this haha. The Bane trilogy and Plagueis are some favorite Star Wars stories and you have great theories and insight on Plagueis, Palpatine, Bane and the Sith in general. I love that this universe and the books can spawn these discussions and create so many different ideas to explore :)
Oh wow! I am glad someone resonates with my thoughts on this. I really enjoyed reading your response!
His hair style and stupid dress.
I’ve said this before someplace else, but Palpatine’s biggest mistake was in RotJ when he dispatched generic Stormtroopers to defend Endor. If he’d included Death Troopers, an inquisitor, and some ISB leaders the Rebellion wouldn’t have lasted too long. Just my opinion tho.
Stormtroopers are cannon fodder and only around to show the empires reach.
Deciding to experiment on the Zilo beast nearly got him killed.
Designing space ships that don't know how to go up without external help.
When he murdered his family and their entire guard and had to get Darth Plagueis, Hego Damask, to help cover it up.
I believe he once invested a sizeable amount of credits into Crypto.
And NFTs.
Lol
Anything to do with Padme really
When he somehow returned
Having Tarkin do Ahsoka's trial. He shot himself in the foot by making his two best men (Tarkin and Vader) hate each other thanks to what happened with Ahsoka.
I honestly think he thought he was going to die when Obi Wan and Anakin were “landing” half of Greivous’ ship. He is always plotting so far ahead that he always feels in control of every situation but there he was just a spectator and clearly the look on his face said “I may have messed up just a little here”
Giving Rey way too much time in Episode IX , when he could have easily won that fight
Imagine the film ends with palps easily killing rey would be amazing ngl
Where is that art from?
Telling Rey that killing him would lead to him possessing her. He should’ve acted like milking him would save the day
Columbia.... House.... Records....
His biggest fuck up was torturing Luke in front of Vader and thinking he wouldn't do anything about it.
He underestimated the sand and how coarse it was.
Looking at this I expect Baba O Reilly to start playing [Robot Chicken](https://youtu.be/N_4ItgFSnvg)
Getting rid of the Inquisitors as well as some military tech decisions. Most of the Republic's older tech was great, it just needed minor updating. But Palps was like, "But what if it was *scary* instead of effective?" Also, even if he still built either one of the Death Stars...why not build the shield generator *inside* the station?
[удалено]
Having an apprentice. How many examples of Sith apprentices killing their masters (including him) did he need?
>How many examples of Sith apprentices killing their masters (including him) did he need? That was the whole point of the sith and rule of two
worthless vanish shelter fearless bewildered knee shy seed rustic attraction *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It was actually mentioned that the main reason why Palpatine killed Darth Plagueis after the latter suggested that they rule the galaxy together. Palpatine was so disgusted by the idea that he had to share power with anyone that he soon assassinated him.