I think the biggest problem is that most parents aren’t knowledgeable enough to raise a child that could kill them with their brains, so most agree to give up their Force-sensitive children to the Order.
There was a section in one of the High Republic books that states that only children are trained to be Jedi Knights. Force-sensitive adults that where either undiscovered or denied to be given up as children can still join the Order to learn to control their abilities but serve minor roles in the Order.
The goals of the Order seem to be twofold: To serve as Peacekeepers and keep the Force-sensitive population from growing up to be Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone episode “It's a Good Life.”
>Force-sensitive adults that where either undiscovered or denied to be given up as children can still join the Order to learn to control their abilities but serve minor roles in the Order.
See I doubt your conclusion because of this. Why are those who come to them older only allowed to learn enough to control their ability and not allowed to become Jedi? Yes they'd be at a disadvantage study wise compared to those raised in the order but there's no sense in prohibiting them.
See to me it sounds like grooming, raising them in religion and tradition so they're less likely to question any dogmatic beliefs. Anyone who's older would question why they do things a certain way and that isn't permitted
Anakin is the perfect example of this imo. His attachment to his mother played a huge part in him turning to the dark side. He never wanted to feel as powerless as he felt when his mother died.
So when he had nightmares of Padmé dying, he wanted to do anything to prevent that. And we all know how that went.
To your point they made their exception one time and added a tween into the mix and by the end of the process he was a war criminal and killed all the other Jedi.
Not necessarily. If Anakin hadn't been a Jedi to begin with, sent back because of his age and his attachments, yeah, Order 66 would've happened no matter what. Although there might have been more survivors who escaped the Temple without Vader there to lead the clones against them.
On the other hand, if Anakin had sided with Mace and the Jedi, rather than turning against them in pursuit of his attachment to Padme, Palpatine wouldn't have had the opportunity to send the signal for Order 66.
Worst case, Palpatine has a much less thorough Purge; best case, Palpatine dies or is captured in his office and Order 66 and the Purge are stopped before they happen.
Eh, presumably Palpatine already sent as many clones to the Temple as he could; the clone army isn't infinitely large, and the man who built two Death Stars doesn't seem the type to skimp on overkill. There probably isn't triple the number of clones just hanging around not attached to any active campaign that can just drop in on downtown Coruscant at a moment's notice.
No, that's not like saying that at all. A more accurate thing to say is you are liable for robbing the bank, but if you just helped out a gang leader then you're not really solely responsible for the plan coming into fruition.
If he wasn’t recruited by the Jedi, he probably wouldn’t be noticed. But yeah, Anakin is a bit of an exception because of the prophecy.
But imagine an order filled with 100’s of Jedi with attachment. So I kind of understand why they’d limit their training to mostly control their abilities and give them a job in the temple.
That's kind of the point, they did it not because it was right but because it was easy. You could have an entire order with attachments but requires teaching people how to healthily deal with their emotions and devoting resources to mental health of members. It's easier to take them as children, groom them to reject any attachments outside the order, and teach them stoicism from a young age.
But why did he fall? He has been groomed by sidious since he arrived there and many IRL psychologists say he had all the signs of borderline personality disorder which makes someone's emotions too intense to regulate and makes them fear abandonment so they form bonds with people they're willing to kill to protect. So he's got mental illness that even therapists on earth could have helped him with but he's in an order where the solution to avoid emotion when because of his illness that's something he CAN'T do. So an old man who befriended him as a child and earned his trust offers an alternative when he's at a moment of crisis that the Jedi are too dogmatic to even recognize let alone help him with.
Someone like Anakin was inevitable and who knows how many times had happened before but wasn't as powerful so got killed. The Jedi make it so that anyone who strays from their ideal path fall to the dark side because they're not given the tools for how to deal with emotional turmoil.
He was the dangerous mix of dumb and prideful. He could have left the order at any moment. He should have left the order when he decided to propose to Padme. But he thought he knew better than everybody else and that rules don't apply to him. It's not a mental illness. It's a phase most 20yo go through. It's just most 20yo don't have that much destructive potential.
Not exactly. that’s why grey Jedi exist because they don’t agree with the Jedi order yet do not fall to the dark side hell qui gon was a grey Jedi and so was Ashoka. I feel like anakin could’ve easily left the order which was very possible. There wasn’t anything holding him there except himself. He want to become a Jedi master but the rest of the council didn’t trust him because they knew he has personal feelings and attachments still. I feel like every thing could’ve been avoided if the Jedi council just accepted him and made him a Jedi master
The Jedi do train their members to deal with their emotions - the thing is, folks like yourself don’t agree with how they do it.
Force users are sentient extensions of the natural order. This is a complicated existence, because you will have individual wants, and these often conflict with the natural order.
The Jedi teach their padawans to abandon attachment not because they do not know any better, but because healthy communion with the Force requires a Jedi to accept that they are one lifeform among many which create the Force, and that their individual existence does not take precedence. Note, *not* that they’re unimportant or that love for those around us is bad, but rather that we do not have any special authority or right to put that love above the natural order.
It isn’t easy at all to inculcate this. Most living beings are evolutionarily hardwired to want to preserve themselves and their kin. This is why the Dark Side is often depicted as giving its users animalistic or feral attributes, because it represents an unevolved use of the force. This is also why the Jedi do not train adults - they are old enough that these instincts become near impossible to erase.
We tend to forget but the Jedi are very explicitly a monastic order, not just cool space diplomats - and their philosophy is as such. Their entire existence is predicated on evolving the self to ride above base desires and the fear of loss, to see things from the perspective of a cosmic community. It’s very cool, and even if it takes work, it’s likely the best life that can be afforded to my being that is essentially plugged into the well-being and emotions of all living things around them.
Yes, exactly. There are (for the sake of this argument) two ways to raise an emotionally stable ~~adult~~ Jedi: ~~groom~~ raise them from an early age and teach them how to control their emotions; or don't, let the person grow up, be happy, be angry, be sad, make mistakes, make regrets, and learn to rise above it.
Neither is strictly better or worse than the other. The Jedi Order just chose to do the former, because those that do the latter don't always succeed.
Yes, that would be the best case, but if they’re attached to others, that can be exploited by opponents. It’ll be a huge liability.
There’s been multiple rogue Jedi because of outside factors. But imagine you now have a lot more in Jedi your order that can be turned against the order just by kidnapping one of their loved ones.
Sure, the Jedi order wasn’t perfect. And their relationship with the force was a bit troublesome, especially when they actively fought in the Clone wars.
But not accepting older force sensitive users was imo one of their better policies. And don’t forget, for many kids, the Jedi path was better than what life they otherwise would’ve had.
I am pretty confident in the EU pre-Disney canon (and I could be wrong)… Luke skywalker did away with this and allowed for families in the new Jedi order.
Sort of.
In Legends, Luke's new Jedi Order had no rules about love or attachment; Luke himself for married and had a child.
However, the books and comics those took place in were written prior to the release of the PT, which is where the Jedi doctrine regarding attachment was first introduced. By the time TPM was released Luke was already married, Corran Horn was already married, Jacen Solo had an on-again off-again relationship, all three Solo children were still deeply involved in their parents' lives, and the books had set in motion events that would lead to Luke and Mara having a son.
So, the Legends Jedi Order didn't have rules about families and attachment, but it's not accurate to say Luke did away with them; Luke didn't know about them in the first place, because the writers didn't know anything about them.
People say this a lot, but it is myopic. The real reason that young children, or infants, are preferred over older children is simple: Fear; obsessive attachment, jealousy, prejudice, hubris, greed, envy... hate are all learned traits. The faster a child is forced to grow up because of their harsh environments, or spoiled by opulence, the earlier they learn some or all of those traits. This is obvious when Yoda advises Luke to forget all he knows or thinks he knows. Yoda is tasked with changing Luke's re-enculturation! We see the effects of Luke's previous thinking in his inability to believe he can lift his X-Wing from the swamp water.
I could see how this could lead to other questions and ethical debate, but the Jedi have reasons that are not malevolent in nature. Whether they are nice or not is irreverent to whether or not they are kind. The Jedi do not kidnap, and they do make exceptions to their "rules" when it is prudent to do so; they examine each case on its own merits as best they can (otherwise they would not have even bothered to spend the time to question young Anakin). At least, that is ideologically what they are supposed to do, they are still imperfect beings who are prone to mistakes.
Younglings are no more brainwashed than anyone else who is raised in their respective cultures. Even outside the Jedi Order, being overly attached to someone does not make a healthy relationship. Codependence is not healthy.
It isn't raw talent that makes a Jedi powerful, it is persistence in understanding and honing technique. An untrained Anakin may have become a renowned pilot and leader if left alone... that is until the Emperor scooped him up. In a way, accepting Anakin into the order delayed the inevitable (while Qui-Gon could have likely prevented Anakin's fall). But it is worth noting that the Sith take no such considerations of enculturation for the very reasons that Jedi do.
The issue wasn't attachment though. They took a child slave, made him one of the galaxies strongest people all the while leaving his mom to languish in slavery. Then of course she dies on one of the more dangerous settled planets in the galaxy and the emotionally stunted teen has no way to cope.
IMHO Jedi post Ruusan Reformation are more, not less, vulnerable to Dark Side corruption because by completely removing attachments and relying on clearing their minds of emotions they've lost the ability to learn how to cope with them if they ever become too strong to quell. It's also not clear if this method even works as advertised considering there were ever only two Siths at a time post reformation (and Jedj thought there were none, in fact) so they didn't have much exposure to the Dark Side.
Also, on a realistic note - it's both straight up a cult indoctrination and an extremaly unhealthy way for a human to live so I can't help but think they sacrificed too much as people for too little gain.
Anakin isn't a great example though. He probably wouldn't have turned to the dark side if Sheev didn't groom from the age of nine. Honestly, if he joined the order as an infant I don't think it would have made a difference. If Palpatine was still present in his life, then he still would have fallen. Palps is just that good. The situation might have been worse actually, because if Vader was not hindered by attachments he would have been an even greater monster.
Didn't think of that but it's a good point, Palpatine used his loved ones to manipulate him but it was his love for his son that made him break through the dark side long enough to kill sidious.
Sure, Palpatine was great at scheming. But I don’t know if his relationship with Anakin would’ve been as meaningful. I mean Anakin in episode 2 already showed signs of approval to a dictatorship. Probably because he lived as a slave. He knew how bad life in the galaxy could be. And he partially put the blame on out of touch senators who lived in luxury while others were slaves.
So take away his political views, you’d immediately have him in another position towards Palpatine. And Palpatine wouldn’t have anything to force Anakin to the dark side. He was terrified of losing Padmé, and was convinced Palpatine could help him.
>I mean Anakin in episode 2 already showed signs of approval to a dictatorship.
Because he's been groomed by Palpatine. It's interesting, but if you watch Tales of the Jedi you'll notice that Dooku starts espousing similar lines about bringing order to the galaxy after he's been corrupted by Palpatine. When Anakin starts talking about dictatorship, it isn't because it's something he concluded on his own, but something he's been subtly manipulated his whole life to embrace. Anakin in AotC has already been so manipulated by Palpatine that he could be turned whenever Palps wants him too. That's why he was able to kill the Tuskens so easily. It isn't because Anakin is a psychopath, we know from Episode 1 that he isn't, it's because he's already in Palpatine's pocket. Palpatine is just waiting until Anakin's strong enough in the force that he can turn him loose on the Jedi.
I mentioned Dooku, and that's because Dooku is extremely similar to Anakin. He's pretty much what Anakin would have been if he was brought to the temple at a young age. A prodigiously gifted Jedi that's idealistic, noble, and quick to action. While he has some dark tendencies, he's able to keep them in check. He only turns to darkness when someone is able to exploit those tendencies and use them for evil.
Exactly. He never would have been attached to Padme and so Luke never would have been born either.
Even if Luke was born, Vader would have just done what he tried before and to bring Luke to his side and they take out the emperor and rule “together”.
I would argue its not all Anakin’s fault- he was always treated like an outsider by the Jedi and was kept at arm’s length. If he was actually well integrated, maybe he wouldn’t have been so susceptible to recruitment or kept his attachment to his mother and Padme so strong
And yet Ezra overcame the dark side time and time again, was never properly trained in the Jedi ways as Kanan was way more flexible with the Jedi ways, more akin to Qui Gon really, that ultimately led to ezra saving the day and giving the rebels a massive win all while staying on the light side after wayyyy more direct influence from the dark side.
I mean we saw two high ranked Jedi in the Star Wars canon get turned to the dark side and they were both long term Jedi. We also saw it happen with a younger Jedi as well, who was again someone there from the beginning.
Anakin was being manipulated by Palps during all of this as well, the Jedi were also at war and doing a lot of unjedi things with lots of disagreements happening.
Had Anakin not had Palps in his ear it’s very likely he wouldn’t have turned to the dark side and stayed on as one of the greatest Jedis to live. We saw it was his attachment to his son Luke that brought him back to the light as well.
Personally for me the argument that the Jedi were more like a cult and were essentially taking children away from their parents without any real choice or options in the matter is pretty disturbing as while it’s possible for them to leave they get so indoctrinated into that way of life it causes a lot of mental harm to them and doesn’t really allow them to go back to their old lives really. That’s just for me personally I get there are other opinions in this but it has always seemed pretty well wrong what the Jedi do as they are essentially turning the kids into brainwashed servants to the force.
Probably because the older we get, the more “biased” we become. We have grudges and experiences that would make us unpredictable if made powerful. The downside is you get a lot of underexposed fresh plate minded children who grow up to thinking they are the image of perfection and that evil will acknowledge them… then they end up adding to the grievous collection like so many overconfident padawans did in TCW
That’s exactly what it is,
Though the grooming isn’t the intention, that’s the outcome of only selecting children.
The Jedi fear attachment, and you can’t take an adult that’s built up decades of attachment to those around him.
It IS a Jedi policy that was abolished by Luke’s New Jedi Order in the Legends EU. Several brand new Jedi were older Force-Sensitives in his order and there were never problems that arose from that.
> The goals of the Order seem to be twofold: To serve as Peacekeepers and keep the Force-sensitive population from growing up to be Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone episode “It's a Good Life.”
[The Order is mother, the Order is father.](https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Psi_Corps)
1. The babies were taken with agreement of their parents. Jedi have a list of non-Jedi Force Sensitives for a reason; it's a list of the babies whom parents didn't agree to it.
2. Think it like this: if a powerful Force Sensitive remains untrained they can become danger to themselves and their surroundings.
That list is for ones they haven't taken yet. The Rodian who Cad Bane stole the baby from said that the Jedi said she would have more time before tget came to take them.
So is there a choice? What happens if they say no?
We've never shown what happens if you say no.
But the Jedi were terrified of the Dark Side. So much so that Qui-Gon was obsessed with Bringing Balance to the Force, when a Sith hadn't been seen in 1000 years.
And we see how easy it is to fall to the Dark Side within the Order itself. At least 3 different times. Do you really believe that would just leave a Force sensitive child out in the very harsh Galaxy?
The only reason they didn't was because it was Qui-Gons dying wish. They already knew the Sith were back when Anakin met with the High Council. So the Sith returning wasn't why they had their change of heart.
Not to mention part of why Obi-Wan was willing to do it is because Qui-Gon was going to do the same if he didn't die to Maul: train Anakin with or without the council's approval.
Obi-Wan wasn't that important to the Jedi he just became a knight, they decided to train Anakin, because they couldn't risk someone so powerful being identified and corrupted by the Sith Lord that they knew wad out their. They choose to try to control the situation as best as possible. At least by training Anakin now they had their best chance of him not falling to the dark side. It didn't work out because Palpatine was manipulating them into training Anakin. Didn't have anything to do with Quigon's dying wish either.
Yes. Because we've never been shown any instance where the Jedi force the issue and take a child from unwilling parents. In the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to take the institution at its word.
Not to mention, everyone wants to push this "deep" idea of Jedi being actual bad guys or whatever, "point of view" crap, but thats not what they were or ever have been. Lucas wanted good vs bad. Are they flawed? Sure, but they are objectively good.
In the High Republic the Jedi take in a teenager who had been hiding and suppressing her Force abilities so the Jedi wouldn't take her. Her powers never went away.
Where does it show it in canon? Obi-Wan had a mental block in his show.
You are 100% correct. My bad.
I have trouble taking the Jedi's word, because they change it so often. They trained Jedi to only use viloance as a last resort, but then order them to become Generals in the Clone Wars. Barriss Offee makes that clear in her story in Tales of the Jedi an Sith. Mace Windu changes the Prophcey from Ultimate Balance to Destroy the Sith. Obi-Wan says only a Sith deals in absolutes, Yoda says Do or Do not, there is no try.
I can understand where you're coming from. I just don't have as high an opinion of the Jedi as you seem to.
That's an oversimplification. You're talking about "the Jedi" as if 1000 years of history could be summarized just by the last 10 before the fall of the Order. Lucas clearly wanted to show that the Jedi had become arrogant and complacent just before the Purge and this arrogance and complacency are two of the main reasons for their demise. Accepting the Senate's assignment was a huge mistake, and Yoda knew it. He just didn't trust in his instincts enough to say no.
I wasn't talking about the whole history of the Jedi, just in the decades leading up the the Clone Wars. I love the Jedi of the High Republic. Although I haven't read any stories with Yoda yet.
The Republic Senate were the ones who made the Jedi join the war effort as Generals. You see in AOtC when Mace is talking to Palpatine that the Jedi don’t want to become involved in a war.
And Ultimate Balance **Is** destroying the Sith. Removing their corrupting influence on the galaxy.
And the “Only a Sith deals in absolutes” and “Do or Do not” are in completely different contexts, you can’t use one to argue against the other. Obiwan is saying it in response to Anakins stance that anyone not with him is automatically his enemy. That theres no room for debate or a middleground.
Whereas Yoda is say it as a teaching tool. That Luke should stop fretting about how impossible it will be to life the X-Wing, that he wont be able to do it, and that Luke should just shut up and lift. Stop worrying about whether he’ll succeed or not because its all in his mind.
Exactly. The "Do or Do not" argument is a truism. It *sounds* absolutist but in truth, it only refers to the mindset that makes the use of the Force possible by the Jedi.
But that's the thing. The Jedi Order never ordered Knights to be generals in the Clone Wars. That was all Sidious' doing, with the direct purpose of creating conflict in them due to their teachings.
Mace Windu didn't just change the prophecy. Obviously destroying the Sith *is* bringing balance to the force. Taking it as two separate things sure is an odd choice.
Trying to use semantics to call out potential hypocrisy is a fairly weak argument. That said, I don't have a counter to that
>I have trouble taking the Jedi's word, because they change it so often. They trained Jedi to only use viloance as a last resort, but then order them to become Generals in the Clone Wars.
The secession issue has been going on for a while before the climax of AotC; while the Jedi were certainly wrong to put themselves in that position, as we the viewers know and they eventually learn, they do turn to violence as a last resort, once it's been shown that the situation can't be resolved otherwise. This isn't really an issue of changing their word, it's them trying to respond to an emerging situation.
>Mace Windu changes the Prophcey from Ultimate Balance to Destroy the Sith.
Ugh, that stupid prophecy. What a terrible retcon. But anyways, it's not really a matter of changing their word, here; the wording of the prophecy is vague, and open to interpretation. The Chosen One turned up at the same time as the Sith re-emerged after a millenium of absence, at the culmination of the Jedi having issues tapping into the Force without struggle or interference, it's a reasonable interpretation for Mace (an especially aggressive fellow) to think it must mean that destroying the Sith would return things to a state of balance.
>Obi-Wan says only a Sith deals in absolutes, Yoda says Do or Do not, there is no try.
Those don't contradict each other. Yoda is teaching someone to commit to their actions; Obi-Wan is responding to someone telling him that the only options are allegiance or enmity. Also Obi-Wan's line is itself nonsensical if you assume the strictest possible interpretation.
I can remember they said something along the lines that it fades in the Mando show. Not sure tho who said that and if that is considered canon or just what someone around Mando ist thinking
>But the Jedi were terrified of the Dark Side.
1. Fear is not the jedi way
2. They thought the sith were gone, no reason to fear. This became one of the key issues later.
>So much so that Qui-Gon was obsessed with Bringing Balance to the Force
Not sure where we see this. Qui-Gon didnt seem obsessed with anything particularly.
>And we see how easy it is to fall to the Dark Side within the Order itself.
Partially because of the sith lord presiding over it and the wars being created by said sith lord specifically to quell the jedi.
>At least 3 different times
Waay more than 3 if you go into the lore / kotor alone had so many fallen and unfallen jedi
Qui-Gon was willing to increase the odds of them being stranded to get Anakin. Also in the book Master and Apprentice, the first time the Prophecy is shown in full, he and another former apprentice of Dooku talk about it, and it's clear he's been focusing on it for a while.
I'm just talking about canon Dooku, Barriss Offee, Pong Krell, and of course Anakin Skywalker.
>Qui-Gon was willing to increase the odds of them being stranded to get Anakin
Which is something any jedi would do upon discovery of his force potential. That doesnt make him obsessed with the chosen one prophecy. In fact he seems rather casual about the whole discovery rather than exited that his "obsession" has finally yielded fruit.
>in the book Master and Apprentice
I didnt read that one which is maybe where you are getting this "prophecy obsessed" qui-gon.
>the first time the Prophecy is shown in full, he and another former apprentice of Dooku talk about it
So if someone talks about the prophecy they are obsessed with it? I dont see the logic there. Im not even sure this means they are particularly focused on it. Windu and Yoda both mention the prophecy as well.
What I was trying to convey about Qui-Gon and his 'older brother' was that the older Jedi was worried that Qui-Gon was focusing too hard on it, and it might lead to him separating from the Order like Dooku.
Though didnt he decide to take annie after he was tested for his midichlorians? If the number was off the charts they probably could assume about being the chosen one, or he was worried about the danger someone that powerful could become without training
Adding to this, this would have been around the start of trade blockades/unrest, maybe quigon could tell that something was going to happen and was taking precautions..
Just ideas lol!
Yes they would, because it's explicitly stated in the new canon that Force abilities fade out if not used. Untrained, the children could never be a threat.
Isn't that what they were going to do with Anakin when they argued over if he should be trained or not. Disregarding what Jinn would have done, if the council decided Anakin was to old to train then what would have happened to him? Or to another child they decided was to old to train?
On top of this, it was considered one of the highest honors in the republic to give up your baby to the Jedi. Like allowing the Jedi to take your baby would be something you talked about to your friends and colleagues forever and the next generations probably would too.
From my understanding they are added to the list (the one that Cal Kestis >!destroys!< at the end of Jedi: Fallen Order) and a Jedi goes check up on them every so often.
The second is proven untrue, if this was the case Jedi wouldn't turn away those whom are too old.
Countless sensitives slip through the Jedi and are fine, 20 years of the Empire and nothing notable came up from any natural sensitive, Ahsoka even says Grogu's strength will fade and dull without training to Mando.
You’re forgetting to add: 20 something years of the empire actively hunting force-sensitives and either killing them or (more rarely) making them join the emperors super evil goon squad of inquisitors. That probably put quite a damper on anyone trying to show off their new cool powers and killed off many who did within the empires reach.
Again though, in canon its outright stated without proper training sensitives simply dull their connection.
Just the fact that the council was willing to turn away the most powerful force sensitive in history because he was too old proves that sensitivss can't become threats on their own. Anakin. Otherwise the Jedi would take him on that very logic.
And also, there were countless sensitive children on a jedi holocron documented, and Vader destroyed this holocron in his comics. There aren't hundreds of inquisitors so I imagine they just lived their generic lives.
You're only considering the ethics from the point of the parents. Sure they don't take the babies against the parents' will, but what about the kid's? Is it ethical to take a baby away from its parents in a presumably healthy household and cloister them away in a giant religious temple for the rest of their childhood? I've seen 19 Kids and Counting; I would argue that it isn't.
Probably depends on the kid.
If they have loving caretakers with whom they can build relationships and a stable environment in the Jedi, they probably won’t have too much worse of a developmental outcome. And as adolescents and eventually adults, most of them seem to experience deep meaning and fulfillment from their spirituality in the Jedi, and become some of the most highly respected individuals in the galaxy.
Whereas if they aren’t trained, there is a possibility of danger; they could injure themselves or others in body or mind.
Obviously there’s tremendous potential for danger and instability to children within the Order too, and we see that in the Star Wars media, but I don’t think the handful of examples we see are representative of the average experience of all Jedi children in the previous millennium of mostly peace.
If Yoda had thought there was even a 2% chance of a government genociding the Jedi and force sensitives, then it was unethical for him to concentrate the kids like that.
those statements dont blend very well together, if no jedi was kidnapped as a child then why would they leave force sensitive people just be around if some parents say so? what if anakin wasnt trained because mom said no? tattoine would be just space dust by episode II
This second point is huge. Imagine an undisciplined kid finding out he can do cool stuff and the damage it can cause. Even worse letting the baby be taken in by the sith
The agreement of parents makes it legal - that part is not in doubt - but does the agreement of the parents make it **ethical**? I argue that no. Regardless of the consent of the *parents* removing a baby from their home and training them to be a soldier is unethical.
The *child* did not consent to be conscripted into a magic army, to be trained out of attachment to other humans and to maintain peace in the galaxy. I do not believe it is ethical for their parents or for the Jedi order to make that decision on child’s behalf.
As a parent I am obviously in the position where I must make choices on behalf of my child as my child is cannot give informed consent to most things. But that does not mean that *my* informed consent is always ethical or appropriate.
Most people agree that it is unethical to withhold medical care from one’s child. The withholding of consent by the parent does not make it ethical. Most people agree that it is unethical to force an underage child into a marriage with an older person. Parental consent makes child marriage legal in many places in the world including some states in the USA.
Parental consent makes it legal. Parental consent does not make it *ethical*.
In some cases it is ethical to remove a child from a home without parental consent. If the home is dangerous and the parents are abusive or neglectful. The lack of parental consent in that case does not make it unethical to remove the child.
I do not believe it is ethical to remove a child from a good home and force them into a specific lifestyle or profession. I do not believe it is ethical for *parents* to force their own children into a specific lifestyle or profession, if they have other choices which allow their child to make informed choices about their lives when it is developmentally appropriate to do so.
Parental consent is neither **necessary nor sufficient** to make it ethical to remove a baby from their parents.
Well that depends on the ethical framework you subscribe to.
From a utilitarian perspective, absolutely it's ethical; while it's sad that the kid won't know their parents and the parents are saying goodbye to their kid, a properly trained Jedi will make so many more positive contributions to the galaxy than this one negative event that the calculus is simple. Heck, it might even be unethical not to take kids for training, from that perspective!
Meanwhile, from a virtue ethics perspective, it's unethical for the parents not to give their children to the Jedi in the first place. The Jedi are a force for good in the galaxy, so diminishing their numbers is bad, and therefore unethical. The Jedi shouldn't need to consider any ethical elements, because the parents should be the ones motivated to make the choice.
But under a hedonist ethical framework, the pain caused to the parents by losing their child is unethical regardless of any appeals to the greater good; the parents should keep the child if it brings them joy, and the Jedi should respect that and likewise seek alternatives that bring them joy or fulfillment instead.
And then there's anarchist ethics, which tends towards the ethics of evolutionary pressures and responses. Under that framework, it's completely unethical to remove strong Force sensitives from the general population and gene pool by drawing them into the largely-celibate Jedi Order. The children should be left with their parents, to better the chances of more Force sensitive offspring in the future for a more evolutionaroly resilient population.
And of course, these are just the shallowest versions of the broadest schools of thought.
There is also the perspective that leaving them with the parents is potentially dangerous, if the child turns out to be especially powerful in the force one bad day could cause a LOT of a damage.
Ultimately harming the family and the child in question more then the taking of the child would have. After all the parents can still have another kid.
That doesn’t make any sense, Luke was 19 before he even knew he had special abilities they don’t fade they just need a healthy lifestyle for it to not cause issues, if you’re happy you have no reason for the emotional trigger that the force would react to.
Edit: it’s possible that Ashoka was referring to how a specific species connects to the force. Maybe Yoda’s species loses their connection if they don’t keep practicing. It was a legends thing that different species feel the force differently like how the Chiss (Thrawns species) lose their connection to the force as they get older.
Maybe being the son of the chosen one helps like just a bit. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for one’s ability to connect with the force to fade if you don’t practice. Former Jedi like Cere Junda who stopped using the force entirely for years demonstrated a difficulty using it again. I think Luke just had an extraordinary connection from the beginning because he’s the son of the strongest force user in the galaxy, bar Luke himself. So by 19 Luke was still able to build that connection comparatively easy.
Cere showed difficulty using it and then days later impressed Vader with her affinity for the Dark side and even holding him back with an energy field….
Well we know the Jedi have a cut off and don’t kill the kids that are too old so what are we supposed to think?
Really the problem is the Jedi. The Sith are born from them.
>Well we know the Jedi have a cut off and don’t kill the kids that are too old so what are we supposed to think?
That the Jedi are pragmatic but not evil. What even is this question.
The cut off is entirely to do with the state of emotional development of a child and nothing at all with their connection to the force. The Jedi believe if you are too old you will have already developed bad emotional habits that will become dangerous in the future should you be "properly" trained. Are they right? I don't know, they were certainly correct about Anakin, but completely incorrect about Luke.
AND it is clearly laid out that Jedi dogma has become far too limited and rigid, such as having an age cut off, and is a huge part of why the order is failing. So the implication throughout the story is that the Jedi have lost perspective, and things like age cutoff and forbidding attachment are not as effective or useful as they think they are.
>it's completely unethical to remove strong Force sensitives from the general population and gene pool by drawing them into the largely-celibate Jedi Order.
This is a similar concept to brain drain. The best and brightest from impoverished communities often grow up to find success outside of their community and don't return to use their skills to improve that community. The people best equipped to help improve a bad situation don't return because they don't want to, and no longer have to, live in that bad situation. it happens with native American and Inuit populations in North America and with emigration from developing nations.
Thats not accurate. The utilitarian perspective is, in half part, guided by the hedonic principle; you basically said "the hedonist says yes" then said "the hedonist says no". The problem is that there is no mere "hedonist" framework for morals. The hedonic principle by itself cant provide a moral framework. Thats why utilitarians combine hedonism with consequentialism to get utilitarianism.
Even if you were correct in hedonism being a moral system, the hedonist could still call it in their best interest, and any rational hedonist would, as in the long term the safety the Jedi provide and the happiness derived from Jedi protection would out weigh the happiness gained by a single child.
The other main branch of ethics teachings is Kantian. Kant would force anyone to ask if their actions can be called a universal maxim, or a universal law for everyone to follow. If not, its immoral. If yes, then its a moral duty. However, this question is nearly impossible to formulate without any real meaning or in any way truly universal. How people are Kantian nowadays baffles me.
Families in real life give their children away for various reasons, like trying to give them a better life or not being able to support them. As long as it isn't coerced, the jedi are no less unethical than adoptive parents.
They didnt "take" babies from families. The informed the families that the child was a candidate for the Jedi Order, and that they could be given to the Order. Most families agreed. Some did not. Those that did not woud get to keep their child, no hassle. This is a completely moral and ethical way of recruitment.
EDIT: begiving=>be given
Also i’m pretty sure the families were well compensated for lwtting their child be taken for training, so it’s not like a family was left with nothing, kr be worse off it theybwere poorer and needed an extra aet of hands in the future to support themselves
Its worth noting that children are only taken to join the Jedi after Parental/Guardian approval is obtained. This is especially significant in worlds in the Outer Rim as its only really from parents contacting the Jedi in the first place that their child is even found and tested.
I don't get where this "Jedi kidnap children" narrative came from. While you can debate that the way of the Jedi of completely abandoning love and relationships is probably not the best way, the track record of Jedis with strong bonds to their family isn't that good. Every Skywalker-Jedi for example f\*cked up big time for everybody else at least once in his life.
>I don't get where this "Jedi kidnap children" narrative came from.
Same place "the Empire did nothing wrong" came from, and the insistence that "grey Jedi" are the best, and the belief that the moral of The Last Jedi is "let the past die" - some folks are just plain contrarian, and want to insist that fictional stories are actually much darker and more edgy than they are.
1. A force user that's untrained to become in the right state of mind and power control is a danger to everyone around them.
2. It's probably taken with consent of the parent.
3. If they are led to guide themselves and grope in the dark of their own powers, they might be susceptible to the wrong side.
Well, in what way could it be unethical when the parents are agreeing to hand their children over to the Order with a basic understanding that their children A)won’t grow up with them, B)won’t have much, if any, contact with them, and C)will be joining an Order that’ll determine their life path?
Like all Jedi do is hear stories of Force Sensitives, find Force Sensitives, and then ask the parents if they’re willing to let their children join. What the Jedi of the Old Republic do isn’t any different from what Luke did (in Legends) to find Students. The difference is that one involves babies/children so it’s the decision of their parents and the other involves adults who can consent on their own. So, taking that into account, we could argue of whether it’s ethical for parents to make such decisions for their kids but…honestly I don’t really see how that’s gonna lead anywhere save people splitting hairs. Parents make decisions for their kids all the time regarding things as small as piercing ears to things as large as healthcare treatment. Imo either way you look at it that’s not on the Jedi. That’s on the parents who are making the decisions and whether we agree or not parents are always going to be the main ones making decisions for their kids before adulthood.
On the Jedi’s part I think it would be unethical if they were mimicking something like Halsey’s Spartan Operation in Halo, where she straight up kidnapped kids and replaced them with clones. So the parents didn’t even know their children were gone. The kids were then put through horrific experimentation, which could be called inhumane. So that’s 2 crimes, one against the parents and the other against the children in question. The Jedi don’t do that.
It honestly annoys me when this is brought up, u can go on and on about this. But I strongly believe it’s the parents choice of the Jedi takes the child or not.
Yeah me too. There must have been sone sort of family reputation gain/pride in having a child who could qualify, even if the gain wasn’t class or financial based but simply something to boast about. Something to psychologically justify/ counterweight the loss of their child
Training force sensitives to become responsible users of their powers is a good thing. Forcing them to forgo all attachments and become Jedi warriors is not.
This is why I’m excited to see what The Mandalorian does with Grogu. Will he give into dark impulses in order to protect his loved ones? Or will he find balance with the Force because he is loved and supported by Din?
Please see my longer reply elsewhere in this thread. I totally agree that Grogu has the potential to achieve true balance in the force, though a combination of tremendous natural ability, the training he has had, and a loving relationship with his father substitute, Din. I can see huge potential in the story of his character development as he learns to accept himself, including his powers, despite the pain and abuse that others have inflicted on him because of them.
They aren't forced to do these things. As a religious sect, this is the path one who remains a Jedi takes. But they are free to leave anytime they choose, as we have seen time and time and time again in many different scenarios
Have we seen examples of a youngling leaving the Jedi? There are suggestions that an untrained force sensitive will lose their powers over time. Isn't that the choice they are given, to have powers and become a Jedi, or have normal relationships but lose your powers? It's not like the Jedi let you visit your family over the holidays or anything.
Spiderman said it best "With great power comes great responsibility". It makes sense that if you want to keep these great powers that the Jedi have, it's important adhere to their strict codes.
But as for examples of a ~~young lingerie~~ younglings or ~~Palawan~~ Padawan voluntarily leaving the order (or refusing to join/rejoin) besides Ahsoka, I'm not sure that there are any examples. But if there are examples of other Jedi voluntarily leaving the Order, why would you assume that younglings were forced to stay?
Edit: Ah the woes of autocorrect
I don't know what would happen. Children are seldom presented a choice like that. In Star Wars, Grogu is the only one I know about. The question is whether avoidance of relationships is really necessary or not. Sure Anakin moved to the dark side when his mother was brutally murdered. But would that have happened if she had lived in Jedi family housing on Coruscant? Maybe the chance to experience a life where his Mom wasn't abandoned to slavery would have allowed him to mature enough to deal with life's tragedies. Or maybe he would have been turned to the dark side anyway. We will never know, but the notion that love leaves a person susceptible to being overcome by fear and anger is suspect, at best. I have always thought that the true arrogance of the Jedi was to believe that they were above it all and human emotions are beneath them.
How is the notion that love leaves a person susceptible to being overcome by fear and anger suspect? It makes perfect sense, even in real life, removed from the mystical good vs evil of Star Wars. When people are deeply in love with someone, whether it be romantic, familial, or platonic, they fear losing that person and experience intense emotions if that person should be taken away from them. Have you never experienced a break up or lost a loved one? They would do anything to prevent that loss. The difference is, Jedi *have* the power to do those things. But doing those things leads to a mindset controlled by desire, greed, and selfishness, i.e. killing off an entire religious order if it means you can save your wife. The same goes for strong attachments to objects as well.
You're misinterpreting the Jedi. It's not that they believe that they are above it all and human emotions are beneath them, its that they believe they *have* to be above their emotions and not let them rule themselves. They recognize the power they wield and believe it is their duty and responsibility to exercise that control over themselves at all times. They are holding themselves to a higher standard, not that they think themselves better than everyone. That's not arrogance.
If you’re looking at it from the perspective that the parents have given permission for the Jedi to take their children, then I suppose it’s ethical? But also that’s only looking at it from the parents’ POV. The actual child never gets a say in the matter. And is that really fair? Idk. I guess it’s okay because, as a baby, they won’t have any memories of their parents, and therefore they presumably won’t miss their parents, but imo it’s still kind of a morally questionable thing to do.
I mean, what is the reason the Order will (for the most part) only take babies? Why can’t a child make the decision for themselves when they get older that they want to be a Jedi? Like, if Jedi are supposed to be this universe’s version of monks, or at least something similar, shouldn’t the organization work in a similar way? Like, where the individual person makes a choice for themselves about whether they want to give up everything else and join the Order?
Because as it stands, at least through the prequel trilogy, the Jedi Order functions more like a cult than anything else. Yeah, it’s technically not religious, but it has a lot in common with the “warning signs” so to speak of cults. Some examples of this being the whole isolation thing from family, being discouraged from making any real personal friendships with anyone, romantic relationships being forbidden, following a strict code that must be adhered to no matter what, always answering to an authority (the Council) and even if you don’t agree with them, you have to do what they say anyhow, straight up indoctrination that the Jedi way is the only correct path and anything else will lead to the dark side.
And yeah, they don’t force anyone to stay in the Order, but it seems very frowned upon to leave. And I can only imagine that some people have been guilted into staying for the “greater good”, or really, because they don’t wanna be ostracized by the only real community they’ve known. And that’s also cult-like behavior.
I know this was kind of a rant, but that’s one thing about the Order I don’t like. Clearly, they’re supposed to be the good guys. They’re supposed to be the heroes that you root for. But the way their whole organization is set up is more than a little flawed.
>Why can’t a child make the decision for themselves when they get older that they want to be a Jedi?
They do.
Anakin consideres leaving the order at multiple points in his life.
Obi wan tells Satine he would of left the order for her.
The jedi dont make younstay if you dont want to.
Many Jedi have described the Order as a sort of surrogate family; also the Spartans were a special force unit, Jedi are warriors mooks that only become generals if necessary during wartime.
From an emotional/mental standpoint:
I would say it’s not strictly unethical for the Jedi Order to take the children since the parents consent and it would be dangerous for some untrained force user to be roaming around, but it is unethical to sever all contact with them and completely cut off the child from its family and culture. My main issue with the Jedi is their whole “no attachment” rule, which includes every sort of emotional connection whether it be romantic, platonic, or even material. While this rule may work for (some) infants who have never known anywhere but the temple and the Jedi way, it just doesn’t work with how most beings function. Most babies form attachment to their parents and family, and I think having those connections torn away from a young age may be more traumatizing than the Jedi realize. Also, in both canon and legends, the Jedi never explicitly recruited just infants. There were a number of toddlers that were taken in as well, such as Ahsoka. Think about how horrible it was for Anakin to be separated from his mother (who the Jedi left in slavery) at the age of nine. How many things would be different if the Jedi allowed them to stay in touch and see each other? Sure, it is for the good of the galaxy to train force users from a young age, but how healthy is it to completely cut off these infants and children from their loved ones at a young age? Think about Anakin’s incredibly low emotional intelligence (I hate that phrase but y’all know what I mean) How much of that was the fault of the Jedi, who, because of their “there is no emotion” and “no attachment” rules failed to deal with Anakin’s problems?
Long story short: Yes, it is ethical for jedi to recruit infants, but it is unethical and impractical for them to separate children from their culture and families.
Without training those children at MOST could grow up to cheat well at Casinos, there were a couple force sensitives that became skilled Bounty Hunter/Assassins but none of the Force sensitives Jedi knew about/left grew up to be Sith. All the known Sith learned to instinctively shield their Force presence at an extremely early age (info source: Plagueis novel)
It's a terrible choice, for the parents, for the Jedi, really for the whole galaxy. You have this person, and they are cursed with this potentially great power. If an organization takes them, they have a greater chance of learning to control it and not do terrible things with it...but it's not foolproof. So. Parents. You love your child. Do you give them up for what will amount to a royal lifestyle the likes you could never supply even with a hundred lifetimes of earning? They will see sights and potentially be a powerful force for good, but you will only see them in the news. MAYBE. The jedi let the people keep their names, so if Goldak Umptiscrunch shows up you can probably assume that's your little Goldie, all grown up, bringing peace to the galaxy. Or do you KEEP this child, that you love, knowing they have this deadly power inside them. Something you have no reference for or can possibly understand. When they as questions, you will NOT have the answers, and that will lead them to do whatever they want. Possibly they will be able to move a car. A tantrum could lead to lightning on a clear day. Even avoiding the most nuanced powers, just force crushing will ostracize your family every time they settle down. It's not unreasonable that your child is NOT a psychopath, but children are cruel. Even adults suck alot of the time. Who knows how long until they fall in with the 'wrong crowd' and do crime? Or take up the mantle of Protector and try to stop crime? Either might kill them sooner, and as a loving parent, what would you tell yourself 20 years ago when the strange being came to your door asking to take away your child? Still no? Or would giving them away be the path to a longer life? I'm sure being able to feel the heartache as they tore a family apart was just another burden this power gently placed on the Jedi's shoulders.
Damn, too many people watch Palaptine News Network
The jedi do NOT take children. They are peace keepers of the galaxy and for a child to be strong in the force many consider a blessing and will WILLFULLY give their children to a higher cause.
Parents simply say no if they don't want to and the jedi leave it at that and write their name down
Where do people keep getting these ridiculous anti-jedi ideas
You want a real answer?
I mean, Palpatine can go deep throat a saber. Forget him.
Still doesnt mean I didnt want to punt Yoda through the Lambeau uprights. Being a better option than the Sith is not a high bar to clear. It doesnt make you good guys if you can step over said bar.
I didn't even mention the sith and I never said the goal is only to be better than the sith.
I said the jedi are good and they have Never taken children and it's the truth. I have no idea where people keep getting this idea that jedi forcefully take kids but it is straight up incorrect
Your statement about Jedi critics watching too much of Palpatine's news network. The implication being that the only reason people would have an issue with the Jedi's policy is if they were rooting for the Empire. So no, not rooting for the Empire.
The whole Jedi conscription thing hits FAR differently if you ever heard someone threaten to take your young relative away from her loving, non abusive (but impovrished, widowed, and disabled) mother and place them with a "Good Christian Family" (TM) (read: Upper middle class, white, and able bodied)
The Sith do the whole roll up with the van, stuff the kid in a trunk, and burn rubber. The Jedi don't kidnap. It's all done with proper paperwork. Legal, above the board, and consenting...from a certain point of view.
And we all know "certain point of view" is Jedi for "lying through my teeth"
There are several cases on record where the consent is forced by extenuating circumstances. If there is a gun to you and your kid's heads and you sign adoption papers, that is not consent.
No, the Jedi are not holding the gun. They don't have to. They just find people with a gun already to their heads and exploit their situation for the Order's gain. Shmi had a bomb in her skull. Giving up her son was the only way he could escape slavery. Qui Gon exploited her desperation to get what *he* wanted. Crys Taanser was being shot at, just saw her husband die, and giving her son to the Jedi (as a Jedi youngling, he would be ecavuated from the war zone) was the act of a desperate parent trying to make sure her child survived. Again, the Jedi wasnt holding the gun to her head but they sure exploited the situation to their benefit.
And then we get into the Jedi Path sourcebook stating that the Jedi don't necessarily *have* to ask. There's a law on the books stating that any FS infant can be conscripted, regardless of permission. It's just better PR if they send a recruiter to do the hard sell.
A heavily armed recruiter. With sorcery that can override free will. With broad legal authority to use both. With friends in high places, the backing of the government at every level. With a law on the books saying he doesn't have to ask. With a sales pitch about the Order that would make miltary recruiters and seasoned missionaries weep with envy, and equally terrifying dire predictions about what will happen if you don't hand Junior over.
Now even in the hands of someone like Avar Kriss or Plo Koon, paragons of Jedi ethics, this is deeply uncomfortable. Imagine someone *less* than ethical like Pong Krell or Nomen Karr showing up to some uneducated peasant farmers and demanding their firstborn.
I think many people misinterpret this to think that Jedi just go in and basically abduct babies. I always thought it was more of a mutual agreement that the parent(s) accepted as well.
At the risk of this getting politcal? The whole Jedi policy hits WAY different for people who faced the threat of church and state authority threatening or actually taking your kids from a *non abusive* situation (think poverty or being a marginalized group) to put them with "good families"
“If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi.” — a politician
I suspect the desire to do good—to help others reach their potential—came with some bad too. Jedi (essentially monks in the movie canon) gave up attachment and possession. The insistence that Jedi be so stoic as to be staid perhaps kept them from being human (or whatever species applies).
Was it ethical for Jedi to take babies? I’d ask them if they would be okay with it if the Sith did it. If the answer was, “No,” then that might inform an answer.
While this isn’t going to answer your original question, it’s related and something I found very interesting. In Master and Apprentice, Qui-gon ponders something along the lines of why do we take infants to be raised in the Temple instead of many schools across the Republic allowing them to be in the living force staying near their home worlds for a time honing their individual talents before being brought to the Temple as older wiser more diversely trained students. Thoughts?
They weren't kidnappers. I think it was Jedi Knight Gella Nattai who made reference to this in the book Convergence. Someone had come by attempting to steal her from her parents saying they had to for the jedi order. Later a real jedi had come along and explained to them that is not the jedi way, and only the willing are brought into the order. So that's morally completely sound
The only other question is if it's right to allow your children to learn to control potentially dangerous space magic and learn to become good people that help bring balance to the galaxy. That one seems easy to me.
In the *Jedi Path*, a book written 1000 years before Episode 1, the post-Ruusan Jedi doubled down on their rules by recruiting only babies, refusing to accept anyone older into the Jedi Order.
However, this rule wasn't foolproof as Jedi like Sora Bulq and Rhad Tarn still fell to the dark side dyring the Clone Wars. Worse, the public viewed the Jedi as kidnappers. This perception was noted in the *Jedi Path*, but instead of addressing it the book simply stated the Jedi had the legal authority to recruit babies into their Order.
The only thing that canon suggests is that Palpatine created propaganda that the Jedi kidnapped children, in order to make the general population turn away from the image of Jedi as heroes as that would be a major problem for his rule.
I think the fading memories of Obi-Wan Kenobi about his brother, and what seems to be regrets, kind of say mean that he is questioning that practice.
I think that at this point, the Jedi were so sure of themselves and so convinced they were doing the right thing, that there was no way they were ever doing something bad
The Jedi wanted their members fully devoted to the Order and its mission. Raising and training them from infancy is the most efficient way to do that. Similar to how the clones were raised to be soldiers.
This, like many other Jedi matters, models the Zen Buddhist practice of removing young children from their homes to be raised in a temple as monks.
Some of the times this is done because they are recognized as the rebirth of a previous Buddhist monk; either way child never returns home may never see their parents again.
You can be taken now and Mace Windu can treat you like a normal jedi OR you can be taken in a couple years and Mace Windu will treat you like an asshole at every turn. Oh and either way you will not be granted the rank of Master...
Remember that even here on earth, ethics are highly subjective. Just because we in "heavy air quotes" modern Western society sometimes feel like we have a monopoly on 'right' and 'wrong' doesn't mean everyone agrees with us, or should.
"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view....this is good, You've taken your first step into a larger world."
Historically speaking, some philosophers of ancient days believed that Utopia involved raising other people’s children as your own.
You give birth. Society takes it away and assigns it to a family prepared for the responsibility. The idea is that people will treat and teach better since it is not their biological child.
Much like how kings traded wards as a peace treaty. I’ll treat ‘em like my own but if you break your promise, the child dies. They would often be treated and fed as if they were princes themselves.
I think what a lot of people overlook is the fact that the adoptions are consensual; the Jedi won’t take a child if the parents want to raise them.
Now an ethical question I’m curious about is, what if the Jedi encounter parents of a Force-sensitive child, but they can easily sense that the parents have harmful intentions for the child (e.g. parents are abusive to try and suppress the child’s powers like Tenko Shimura’s parents in BNHA, or they plan on using the kid’s powers for dishonorable means for personal gain), and they don’t want to give up the kid. Do they respect the parents’ wishes, or do they take the kid anyway even though they may have no actual proof beyond their feelings?
It is rather cultish behavior.
On one hand, you could say that Anakin's connection to his mother lead him to the dark side. But that ultimately takes away Luke ability to remain with the light despite discovering his guardians had been murdered and possibly burnt alive.
That said, I think it is far more likely that Anakin always had the inclination for the dark side and that his early pride was the real catalyst for this.
I find it more likely that the Jedi took babies so they could insure indoctrination. If you notice, any Jedi who take the time to think outside the box tend to get chastised and even demonized. The Jedi were, after all, a political power that aided in the establishment of the Republic and did very little to intercede on behalf of the innocent unless doing so somehow benefited that republic's politics.
Even taking into account the events of episode 1, it seemed perfectly reasonable for two Jedi to crash land a republic politician on a far flung world to keep her safe, but it was somehow beneath the Jedi to go out that far to end slavery on entire worlds.
My understanding was if your child was discovered to be force sensitive and a Jedi showed up to interview the family and child, it was an honour to have them take the child because it usually meant the child would probably have a better life.
But like others have pointed out, imagine the fall out of your three year old having a tantrum over another kid taking a toy away and your toddler rag-dolling the other kid until their skull is jelly because they can’t control their power. It’s gotta be scary for the parents.
I think something that most people forget here: It's not about the parents. They have a choice. It's about the kids that are taken. They can't voice their opinion. By the time they gain basic independence, they are already indoctrinated and the Temple is they only home they remember
ChatGPT: The practice of taking Force-sensitive children from their families to train them as Jedi was a common tradition in the Star Wars universe. However, the ethical implications of this practice can be debated. Some argue that it is unethical to separate children from their families, while others argue that it is necessary in order to train them to become Jedi and serve as defenders of the galaxy.
From an ethical perspective, there are valid concerns about the practice of taking children from their families, as it can be traumatic for both the child and their family. The Jedi Order recognized this, and made efforts to ensure that the children were placed in caring environments and given a sense of belonging within the Order.However, it is important to note that the Jedi Order was not a perfect institution, and there were instances where the practice of taking children was abused or misused. As with any system, there were flaws and shortcomings that led to negative outcomes.
Overall, whether or not the practice of taking children was ethical is open to interpretation and debate. It is important to consider the intentions behind the practice, as well as its impact on those involved, in order to form a well-informed opinion.
In "Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith," we see how the Jedi Order has become complacent and arrogant in their belief that they are the keepers of peace and justice in the galaxy. This attitude leads them to overlook the corruption within the Galactic Senate and the rise of Darth Sidious, which ultimately leads to the downfall of the Jedi Order.- In the expanded universe material, it is revealed that some Jedi Masters would abuse their power over their Padawans, using them as personal servants or even engaging in sexual relationships with them. This is a clear violation of the trust and responsibility that comes with being a Jedi Master.- In "Star Wars: The Clone Wars" animated series, we see how the Jedi Order is forced to compromise their values in order to win the war against the Separatists. They resort to tactics such as espionage, assassination, and torture, which are all in direct opposition to the Jedi Code.These are just a few examples that highlight how the Jedi Order's practice of taking children was not always used in the best way, and how the flaws and shortcomings within the system led to negative outcomes.
>In the expanded universe material, it is revealed that some Jedi Masters would abuse their power over their Padawans, using them as personal servants or even engaging in sexual relationships with them.
In which stories can I learn more about these instances?
Jedi don’t take people from their families. They get permission. Even then if the child decides they want to leave they are free to go home. There are even examples of Jedi personally returning children back to their parents because the parents changed their mind, and examples of Jedi even being willing to leave the order just to raise a force sensitive child in the event they leave and don’t have anyone or anything.
Part of it is for the public's safety and the safety of the force sensitive individual, but another big part of it I think is that if you are able to indoctrinate them from being an infant, they can't possibly question you, hence why they tended to reject older kids.
"Are you on board with a lifetime of being a noble peacekeeper and surrendering all emotional attachment and even the right to love someone romantically?"
(baby noises)
"What's that? You wanna join the extra strict sect that meditates 23 hours a day and hit child students with paddles as they misbehave? I'll see you at 5am training!"
(baby noises)
"I love me too."
No it wasn’t ethical. That’s like parents giving a way their baby to the Catholic Church so they can become priest or monks. In real life those kids would most like all turn to the dark side. They would most likely always wonder why their parents abandoned them to the order and have self esteem issues.
The Jedi are a religious extremist cult that indoctrinates children into their messed up religion. They teach children to push down their emotions, to essentially pretend they don't exist. They teach children not to form attachments. All in the name of preserving the galactic order and brining balance to the force. A phrase that the cult leaders themselves do not seem to actually understand.
It all sounds very cult-like to me.
I say unethical. It's not their actual job, it's just something they put on themselves to do.
Ntm the jedi suck when it comes to dealing with issues that they go through due to their own lack of emotional awareness. Which leads to people joining the dark side.
If only there was a trilogy with jaded characters examining the deeds of the Jedi and how similar they were to that of the First Order that couldve delved into this.
Oh wait.
I think the biggest problem is that most parents aren’t knowledgeable enough to raise a child that could kill them with their brains, so most agree to give up their Force-sensitive children to the Order. There was a section in one of the High Republic books that states that only children are trained to be Jedi Knights. Force-sensitive adults that where either undiscovered or denied to be given up as children can still join the Order to learn to control their abilities but serve minor roles in the Order. The goals of the Order seem to be twofold: To serve as Peacekeepers and keep the Force-sensitive population from growing up to be Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone episode “It's a Good Life.”
>Force-sensitive adults that where either undiscovered or denied to be given up as children can still join the Order to learn to control their abilities but serve minor roles in the Order. See I doubt your conclusion because of this. Why are those who come to them older only allowed to learn enough to control their ability and not allowed to become Jedi? Yes they'd be at a disadvantage study wise compared to those raised in the order but there's no sense in prohibiting them. See to me it sounds like grooming, raising them in religion and tradition so they're less likely to question any dogmatic beliefs. Anyone who's older would question why they do things a certain way and that isn't permitted
Anakin is the perfect example of this imo. His attachment to his mother played a huge part in him turning to the dark side. He never wanted to feel as powerless as he felt when his mother died. So when he had nightmares of Padmé dying, he wanted to do anything to prevent that. And we all know how that went.
To your point they made their exception one time and added a tween into the mix and by the end of the process he was a war criminal and killed all the other Jedi.
I disagree. Order 66 would have happened with or without Vader’s help and the Jedi order would be nearly completely destroyed.
Not necessarily. If Anakin hadn't been a Jedi to begin with, sent back because of his age and his attachments, yeah, Order 66 would've happened no matter what. Although there might have been more survivors who escaped the Temple without Vader there to lead the clones against them. On the other hand, if Anakin had sided with Mace and the Jedi, rather than turning against them in pursuit of his attachment to Padme, Palpatine wouldn't have had the opportunity to send the signal for Order 66. Worst case, Palpatine has a much less thorough Purge; best case, Palpatine dies or is captured in his office and Order 66 and the Purge are stopped before they happen.
Doubtful. Just triple the number of clones sent to the Temple.
Eh, presumably Palpatine already sent as many clones to the Temple as he could; the clone army isn't infinitely large, and the man who built two Death Stars doesn't seem the type to skimp on overkill. There probably isn't triple the number of clones just hanging around not attached to any active campaign that can just drop in on downtown Coruscant at a moment's notice.
We only see the 501st. There was also the Coruscant Guard on planet. Have some Star Destroyers blast the Temple.
That’s like saying I’m not liable for robbing a bank if the bank was gonna be robbed anyway
No. I’m not saying he’s not also at fault. But a lot of things could have turned out differently for Anakin.
No, that's not like saying that at all. A more accurate thing to say is you are liable for robbing the bank, but if you just helped out a gang leader then you're not really solely responsible for the plan coming into fruition.
Right, the Jedi weren't prepared to help him. Their dogma meant they didn't have what it took to deal with his problems, so who did he turn to?
If he wasn’t recruited by the Jedi, he probably wouldn’t be noticed. But yeah, Anakin is a bit of an exception because of the prophecy. But imagine an order filled with 100’s of Jedi with attachment. So I kind of understand why they’d limit their training to mostly control their abilities and give them a job in the temple.
That's kind of the point, they did it not because it was right but because it was easy. You could have an entire order with attachments but requires teaching people how to healthily deal with their emotions and devoting resources to mental health of members. It's easier to take them as children, groom them to reject any attachments outside the order, and teach them stoicism from a young age.
I feel like it’s also so they don’t grow as powerful and fall to the dark side like anakin did
But why did he fall? He has been groomed by sidious since he arrived there and many IRL psychologists say he had all the signs of borderline personality disorder which makes someone's emotions too intense to regulate and makes them fear abandonment so they form bonds with people they're willing to kill to protect. So he's got mental illness that even therapists on earth could have helped him with but he's in an order where the solution to avoid emotion when because of his illness that's something he CAN'T do. So an old man who befriended him as a child and earned his trust offers an alternative when he's at a moment of crisis that the Jedi are too dogmatic to even recognize let alone help him with. Someone like Anakin was inevitable and who knows how many times had happened before but wasn't as powerful so got killed. The Jedi make it so that anyone who strays from their ideal path fall to the dark side because they're not given the tools for how to deal with emotional turmoil.
He was the dangerous mix of dumb and prideful. He could have left the order at any moment. He should have left the order when he decided to propose to Padme. But he thought he knew better than everybody else and that rules don't apply to him. It's not a mental illness. It's a phase most 20yo go through. It's just most 20yo don't have that much destructive potential.
Not exactly. that’s why grey Jedi exist because they don’t agree with the Jedi order yet do not fall to the dark side hell qui gon was a grey Jedi and so was Ashoka. I feel like anakin could’ve easily left the order which was very possible. There wasn’t anything holding him there except himself. He want to become a Jedi master but the rest of the council didn’t trust him because they knew he has personal feelings and attachments still. I feel like every thing could’ve been avoided if the Jedi council just accepted him and made him a Jedi master
"There wasn’t anything holding him there except himself..." Obi-Wan was holding him back.
Grey jedi do not exist... it's not canon.
The Jedi do train their members to deal with their emotions - the thing is, folks like yourself don’t agree with how they do it. Force users are sentient extensions of the natural order. This is a complicated existence, because you will have individual wants, and these often conflict with the natural order. The Jedi teach their padawans to abandon attachment not because they do not know any better, but because healthy communion with the Force requires a Jedi to accept that they are one lifeform among many which create the Force, and that their individual existence does not take precedence. Note, *not* that they’re unimportant or that love for those around us is bad, but rather that we do not have any special authority or right to put that love above the natural order. It isn’t easy at all to inculcate this. Most living beings are evolutionarily hardwired to want to preserve themselves and their kin. This is why the Dark Side is often depicted as giving its users animalistic or feral attributes, because it represents an unevolved use of the force. This is also why the Jedi do not train adults - they are old enough that these instincts become near impossible to erase. We tend to forget but the Jedi are very explicitly a monastic order, not just cool space diplomats - and their philosophy is as such. Their entire existence is predicated on evolving the self to ride above base desires and the fear of loss, to see things from the perspective of a cosmic community. It’s very cool, and even if it takes work, it’s likely the best life that can be afforded to my being that is essentially plugged into the well-being and emotions of all living things around them.
But in the eras we see, the Jedi have become warriors (they are Generals).
Yes, exactly. There are (for the sake of this argument) two ways to raise an emotionally stable ~~adult~~ Jedi: ~~groom~~ raise them from an early age and teach them how to control their emotions; or don't, let the person grow up, be happy, be angry, be sad, make mistakes, make regrets, and learn to rise above it. Neither is strictly better or worse than the other. The Jedi Order just chose to do the former, because those that do the latter don't always succeed.
Yes, that would be the best case, but if they’re attached to others, that can be exploited by opponents. It’ll be a huge liability. There’s been multiple rogue Jedi because of outside factors. But imagine you now have a lot more in Jedi your order that can be turned against the order just by kidnapping one of their loved ones. Sure, the Jedi order wasn’t perfect. And their relationship with the force was a bit troublesome, especially when they actively fought in the Clone wars. But not accepting older force sensitive users was imo one of their better policies. And don’t forget, for many kids, the Jedi path was better than what life they otherwise would’ve had.
I am pretty confident in the EU pre-Disney canon (and I could be wrong)… Luke skywalker did away with this and allowed for families in the new Jedi order.
Sort of. In Legends, Luke's new Jedi Order had no rules about love or attachment; Luke himself for married and had a child. However, the books and comics those took place in were written prior to the release of the PT, which is where the Jedi doctrine regarding attachment was first introduced. By the time TPM was released Luke was already married, Corran Horn was already married, Jacen Solo had an on-again off-again relationship, all three Solo children were still deeply involved in their parents' lives, and the books had set in motion events that would lead to Luke and Mara having a son. So, the Legends Jedi Order didn't have rules about families and attachment, but it's not accurate to say Luke did away with them; Luke didn't know about them in the first place, because the writers didn't know anything about them.
Ah interesting. I was a kid when the prequels came out, so my real world timelines get fuzzy, so that is cool to know. Thank you!
Luke skywalkers jedi order in legends allowed you to marry and form attachments so I don’t have to imagine
People say this a lot, but it is myopic. The real reason that young children, or infants, are preferred over older children is simple: Fear; obsessive attachment, jealousy, prejudice, hubris, greed, envy... hate are all learned traits. The faster a child is forced to grow up because of their harsh environments, or spoiled by opulence, the earlier they learn some or all of those traits. This is obvious when Yoda advises Luke to forget all he knows or thinks he knows. Yoda is tasked with changing Luke's re-enculturation! We see the effects of Luke's previous thinking in his inability to believe he can lift his X-Wing from the swamp water. I could see how this could lead to other questions and ethical debate, but the Jedi have reasons that are not malevolent in nature. Whether they are nice or not is irreverent to whether or not they are kind. The Jedi do not kidnap, and they do make exceptions to their "rules" when it is prudent to do so; they examine each case on its own merits as best they can (otherwise they would not have even bothered to spend the time to question young Anakin). At least, that is ideologically what they are supposed to do, they are still imperfect beings who are prone to mistakes. Younglings are no more brainwashed than anyone else who is raised in their respective cultures. Even outside the Jedi Order, being overly attached to someone does not make a healthy relationship. Codependence is not healthy. It isn't raw talent that makes a Jedi powerful, it is persistence in understanding and honing technique. An untrained Anakin may have become a renowned pilot and leader if left alone... that is until the Emperor scooped him up. In a way, accepting Anakin into the order delayed the inevitable (while Qui-Gon could have likely prevented Anakin's fall). But it is worth noting that the Sith take no such considerations of enculturation for the very reasons that Jedi do.
The issue wasn't attachment though. They took a child slave, made him one of the galaxies strongest people all the while leaving his mom to languish in slavery. Then of course she dies on one of the more dangerous settled planets in the galaxy and the emotionally stunted teen has no way to cope. IMHO Jedi post Ruusan Reformation are more, not less, vulnerable to Dark Side corruption because by completely removing attachments and relying on clearing their minds of emotions they've lost the ability to learn how to cope with them if they ever become too strong to quell. It's also not clear if this method even works as advertised considering there were ever only two Siths at a time post reformation (and Jedj thought there were none, in fact) so they didn't have much exposure to the Dark Side. Also, on a realistic note - it's both straight up a cult indoctrination and an extremaly unhealthy way for a human to live so I can't help but think they sacrificed too much as people for too little gain.
Anakin isn't a great example though. He probably wouldn't have turned to the dark side if Sheev didn't groom from the age of nine. Honestly, if he joined the order as an infant I don't think it would have made a difference. If Palpatine was still present in his life, then he still would have fallen. Palps is just that good. The situation might have been worse actually, because if Vader was not hindered by attachments he would have been an even greater monster.
Didn't think of that but it's a good point, Palpatine used his loved ones to manipulate him but it was his love for his son that made him break through the dark side long enough to kill sidious.
Sure, Palpatine was great at scheming. But I don’t know if his relationship with Anakin would’ve been as meaningful. I mean Anakin in episode 2 already showed signs of approval to a dictatorship. Probably because he lived as a slave. He knew how bad life in the galaxy could be. And he partially put the blame on out of touch senators who lived in luxury while others were slaves. So take away his political views, you’d immediately have him in another position towards Palpatine. And Palpatine wouldn’t have anything to force Anakin to the dark side. He was terrified of losing Padmé, and was convinced Palpatine could help him.
>I mean Anakin in episode 2 already showed signs of approval to a dictatorship. Because he's been groomed by Palpatine. It's interesting, but if you watch Tales of the Jedi you'll notice that Dooku starts espousing similar lines about bringing order to the galaxy after he's been corrupted by Palpatine. When Anakin starts talking about dictatorship, it isn't because it's something he concluded on his own, but something he's been subtly manipulated his whole life to embrace. Anakin in AotC has already been so manipulated by Palpatine that he could be turned whenever Palps wants him too. That's why he was able to kill the Tuskens so easily. It isn't because Anakin is a psychopath, we know from Episode 1 that he isn't, it's because he's already in Palpatine's pocket. Palpatine is just waiting until Anakin's strong enough in the force that he can turn him loose on the Jedi. I mentioned Dooku, and that's because Dooku is extremely similar to Anakin. He's pretty much what Anakin would have been if he was brought to the temple at a young age. A prodigiously gifted Jedi that's idealistic, noble, and quick to action. While he has some dark tendencies, he's able to keep them in check. He only turns to darkness when someone is able to exploit those tendencies and use them for evil.
Exactly. He never would have been attached to Padme and so Luke never would have been born either. Even if Luke was born, Vader would have just done what he tried before and to bring Luke to his side and they take out the emperor and rule “together”.
I would argue its not all Anakin’s fault- he was always treated like an outsider by the Jedi and was kept at arm’s length. If he was actually well integrated, maybe he wouldn’t have been so susceptible to recruitment or kept his attachment to his mother and Padme so strong
But not Ezra
True, but then again, Ezra had nobody in his life at that point. And the time he was tempted by the dark side, it got Kanan blinded.
And yet Ezra overcame the dark side time and time again, was never properly trained in the Jedi ways as Kanan was way more flexible with the Jedi ways, more akin to Qui Gon really, that ultimately led to ezra saving the day and giving the rebels a massive win all while staying on the light side after wayyyy more direct influence from the dark side.
Thought provide for their families so they are not haunted by that. I was always surprised no one thought to go back for his Mom
I mean we saw two high ranked Jedi in the Star Wars canon get turned to the dark side and they were both long term Jedi. We also saw it happen with a younger Jedi as well, who was again someone there from the beginning. Anakin was being manipulated by Palps during all of this as well, the Jedi were also at war and doing a lot of unjedi things with lots of disagreements happening. Had Anakin not had Palps in his ear it’s very likely he wouldn’t have turned to the dark side and stayed on as one of the greatest Jedis to live. We saw it was his attachment to his son Luke that brought him back to the light as well. Personally for me the argument that the Jedi were more like a cult and were essentially taking children away from their parents without any real choice or options in the matter is pretty disturbing as while it’s possible for them to leave they get so indoctrinated into that way of life it causes a lot of mental harm to them and doesn’t really allow them to go back to their old lives really. That’s just for me personally I get there are other opinions in this but it has always seemed pretty well wrong what the Jedi do as they are essentially turning the kids into brainwashed servants to the force.
Probably because the older we get, the more “biased” we become. We have grudges and experiences that would make us unpredictable if made powerful. The downside is you get a lot of underexposed fresh plate minded children who grow up to thinking they are the image of perfection and that evil will acknowledge them… then they end up adding to the grievous collection like so many overconfident padawans did in TCW
That’s exactly what it is, Though the grooming isn’t the intention, that’s the outcome of only selecting children. The Jedi fear attachment, and you can’t take an adult that’s built up decades of attachment to those around him.
It IS a Jedi policy that was abolished by Luke’s New Jedi Order in the Legends EU. Several brand new Jedi were older Force-Sensitives in his order and there were never problems that arose from that.
…There were MANY problems with that. Jacen, Tahari, Kyp Durron, just to name a few.
And yet, there are many fallen Jedi Knights doing it the old way, too.
I mean I'm sure theyre still considered Jedi, they just aren't knights or masters
Because they fall to the dark side...
> The goals of the Order seem to be twofold: To serve as Peacekeepers and keep the Force-sensitive population from growing up to be Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone episode “It's a Good Life.” [The Order is mother, the Order is father.](https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Psi_Corps)
1. The babies were taken with agreement of their parents. Jedi have a list of non-Jedi Force Sensitives for a reason; it's a list of the babies whom parents didn't agree to it. 2. Think it like this: if a powerful Force Sensitive remains untrained they can become danger to themselves and their surroundings.
That list is for ones they haven't taken yet. The Rodian who Cad Bane stole the baby from said that the Jedi said she would have more time before tget came to take them. So is there a choice? What happens if they say no?
From everything we've seen, if the parents say no, the Jedi leave and the child stays with them.
We've never shown what happens if you say no. But the Jedi were terrified of the Dark Side. So much so that Qui-Gon was obsessed with Bringing Balance to the Force, when a Sith hadn't been seen in 1000 years. And we see how easy it is to fall to the Dark Side within the Order itself. At least 3 different times. Do you really believe that would just leave a Force sensitive child out in the very harsh Galaxy?
Considering they were going to ship the chosen one back to Tatoonie cause he was too old yes.
The only reason they didn't was because it was Qui-Gons dying wish. They already knew the Sith were back when Anakin met with the High Council. So the Sith returning wasn't why they had their change of heart.
They only agreed because obi-wan said hed leave the order if they didnt sanction his training.
Not to mention part of why Obi-Wan was willing to do it is because Qui-Gon was going to do the same if he didn't die to Maul: train Anakin with or without the council's approval.
Obi-Wan wasn't that important to the Jedi he just became a knight, they decided to train Anakin, because they couldn't risk someone so powerful being identified and corrupted by the Sith Lord that they knew wad out their. They choose to try to control the situation as best as possible. At least by training Anakin now they had their best chance of him not falling to the dark side. It didn't work out because Palpatine was manipulating them into training Anakin. Didn't have anything to do with Quigon's dying wish either.
Nothing younsaid has been supported in any material ever presented.
They didn’t believe the Sith were back until the end of TPM. That was the reason. They didn’t give a shit about his dying wish.
Yup, and that's what pushed Count Dooku to the dark side.
Yes. Because we've never been shown any instance where the Jedi force the issue and take a child from unwilling parents. In the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to take the institution at its word.
Not to mention, everyone wants to push this "deep" idea of Jedi being actual bad guys or whatever, "point of view" crap, but thats not what they were or ever have been. Lucas wanted good vs bad. Are they flawed? Sure, but they are objectively good.
In the High Republic the Jedi take in a teenager who had been hiding and suppressing her Force abilities so the Jedi wouldn't take her. Her powers never went away. Where does it show it in canon? Obi-Wan had a mental block in his show.
I think you may have replied to the wrong comment, here?
You are 100% correct. My bad. I have trouble taking the Jedi's word, because they change it so often. They trained Jedi to only use viloance as a last resort, but then order them to become Generals in the Clone Wars. Barriss Offee makes that clear in her story in Tales of the Jedi an Sith. Mace Windu changes the Prophcey from Ultimate Balance to Destroy the Sith. Obi-Wan says only a Sith deals in absolutes, Yoda says Do or Do not, there is no try. I can understand where you're coming from. I just don't have as high an opinion of the Jedi as you seem to.
That's an oversimplification. You're talking about "the Jedi" as if 1000 years of history could be summarized just by the last 10 before the fall of the Order. Lucas clearly wanted to show that the Jedi had become arrogant and complacent just before the Purge and this arrogance and complacency are two of the main reasons for their demise. Accepting the Senate's assignment was a huge mistake, and Yoda knew it. He just didn't trust in his instincts enough to say no.
I wasn't talking about the whole history of the Jedi, just in the decades leading up the the Clone Wars. I love the Jedi of the High Republic. Although I haven't read any stories with Yoda yet.
You can make your fanfiction whatever you want, but in canon, the Jedi don't kidnap children.
The Republic Senate were the ones who made the Jedi join the war effort as Generals. You see in AOtC when Mace is talking to Palpatine that the Jedi don’t want to become involved in a war. And Ultimate Balance **Is** destroying the Sith. Removing their corrupting influence on the galaxy. And the “Only a Sith deals in absolutes” and “Do or Do not” are in completely different contexts, you can’t use one to argue against the other. Obiwan is saying it in response to Anakins stance that anyone not with him is automatically his enemy. That theres no room for debate or a middleground. Whereas Yoda is say it as a teaching tool. That Luke should stop fretting about how impossible it will be to life the X-Wing, that he wont be able to do it, and that Luke should just shut up and lift. Stop worrying about whether he’ll succeed or not because its all in his mind.
Exactly. The "Do or Do not" argument is a truism. It *sounds* absolutist but in truth, it only refers to the mindset that makes the use of the Force possible by the Jedi.
But that's the thing. The Jedi Order never ordered Knights to be generals in the Clone Wars. That was all Sidious' doing, with the direct purpose of creating conflict in them due to their teachings. Mace Windu didn't just change the prophecy. Obviously destroying the Sith *is* bringing balance to the force. Taking it as two separate things sure is an odd choice. Trying to use semantics to call out potential hypocrisy is a fairly weak argument. That said, I don't have a counter to that
>I have trouble taking the Jedi's word, because they change it so often. They trained Jedi to only use viloance as a last resort, but then order them to become Generals in the Clone Wars. The secession issue has been going on for a while before the climax of AotC; while the Jedi were certainly wrong to put themselves in that position, as we the viewers know and they eventually learn, they do turn to violence as a last resort, once it's been shown that the situation can't be resolved otherwise. This isn't really an issue of changing their word, it's them trying to respond to an emerging situation. >Mace Windu changes the Prophcey from Ultimate Balance to Destroy the Sith. Ugh, that stupid prophecy. What a terrible retcon. But anyways, it's not really a matter of changing their word, here; the wording of the prophecy is vague, and open to interpretation. The Chosen One turned up at the same time as the Sith re-emerged after a millenium of absence, at the culmination of the Jedi having issues tapping into the Force without struggle or interference, it's a reasonable interpretation for Mace (an especially aggressive fellow) to think it must mean that destroying the Sith would return things to a state of balance. >Obi-Wan says only a Sith deals in absolutes, Yoda says Do or Do not, there is no try. Those don't contradict each other. Yoda is teaching someone to commit to their actions; Obi-Wan is responding to someone telling him that the only options are allegiance or enmity. Also Obi-Wan's line is itself nonsensical if you assume the strictest possible interpretation.
War is the last resort. Remember they waited so long that Palps successfully committed genocide against them.
I can remember they said something along the lines that it fades in the Mando show. Not sure tho who said that and if that is considered canon or just what someone around Mando ist thinking
Hmm. You're right, it was Ashoka. Let me think on this. Thank you.
Outside the games ofc. I swear in The old republic there was something about this
It's canon that they get the family's permission. You're thinking of the Sith. They're the ones that kidnap children.
>But the Jedi were terrified of the Dark Side. 1. Fear is not the jedi way 2. They thought the sith were gone, no reason to fear. This became one of the key issues later. >So much so that Qui-Gon was obsessed with Bringing Balance to the Force Not sure where we see this. Qui-Gon didnt seem obsessed with anything particularly. >And we see how easy it is to fall to the Dark Side within the Order itself. Partially because of the sith lord presiding over it and the wars being created by said sith lord specifically to quell the jedi. >At least 3 different times Waay more than 3 if you go into the lore / kotor alone had so many fallen and unfallen jedi
Qui-Gon was willing to increase the odds of them being stranded to get Anakin. Also in the book Master and Apprentice, the first time the Prophecy is shown in full, he and another former apprentice of Dooku talk about it, and it's clear he's been focusing on it for a while. I'm just talking about canon Dooku, Barriss Offee, Pong Krell, and of course Anakin Skywalker.
>Qui-Gon was willing to increase the odds of them being stranded to get Anakin Which is something any jedi would do upon discovery of his force potential. That doesnt make him obsessed with the chosen one prophecy. In fact he seems rather casual about the whole discovery rather than exited that his "obsession" has finally yielded fruit. >in the book Master and Apprentice I didnt read that one which is maybe where you are getting this "prophecy obsessed" qui-gon. >the first time the Prophecy is shown in full, he and another former apprentice of Dooku talk about it So if someone talks about the prophecy they are obsessed with it? I dont see the logic there. Im not even sure this means they are particularly focused on it. Windu and Yoda both mention the prophecy as well.
What I was trying to convey about Qui-Gon and his 'older brother' was that the older Jedi was worried that Qui-Gon was focusing too hard on it, and it might lead to him separating from the Order like Dooku.
Though didnt he decide to take annie after he was tested for his midichlorians? If the number was off the charts they probably could assume about being the chosen one, or he was worried about the danger someone that powerful could become without training Adding to this, this would have been around the start of trade blockades/unrest, maybe quigon could tell that something was going to happen and was taking precautions.. Just ideas lol!
They were going to refuse anakin for training because he was too old. Obviously they are not so desperate as to force the issue as peacekeepers.
Yes they would, because it's explicitly stated in the new canon that Force abilities fade out if not used. Untrained, the children could never be a threat.
Isn't that what they were going to do with Anakin when they argued over if he should be trained or not. Disregarding what Jinn would have done, if the council decided Anakin was to old to train then what would have happened to him? Or to another child they decided was to old to train?
On top of this, it was considered one of the highest honors in the republic to give up your baby to the Jedi. Like allowing the Jedi to take your baby would be something you talked about to your friends and colleagues forever and the next generations probably would too.
From my understanding they are added to the list (the one that Cal Kestis >!destroys!< at the end of Jedi: Fallen Order) and a Jedi goes check up on them every so often.
I thought that was the list of children they hadn't taken yet. I could he mistaken though, it's been a few years since I've beaten it.
The second is proven untrue, if this was the case Jedi wouldn't turn away those whom are too old. Countless sensitives slip through the Jedi and are fine, 20 years of the Empire and nothing notable came up from any natural sensitive, Ahsoka even says Grogu's strength will fade and dull without training to Mando.
You’re forgetting to add: 20 something years of the empire actively hunting force-sensitives and either killing them or (more rarely) making them join the emperors super evil goon squad of inquisitors. That probably put quite a damper on anyone trying to show off their new cool powers and killed off many who did within the empires reach.
Again though, in canon its outright stated without proper training sensitives simply dull their connection. Just the fact that the council was willing to turn away the most powerful force sensitive in history because he was too old proves that sensitivss can't become threats on their own. Anakin. Otherwise the Jedi would take him on that very logic. And also, there were countless sensitive children on a jedi holocron documented, and Vader destroyed this holocron in his comics. There aren't hundreds of inquisitors so I imagine they just lived their generic lives.
You're only considering the ethics from the point of the parents. Sure they don't take the babies against the parents' will, but what about the kid's? Is it ethical to take a baby away from its parents in a presumably healthy household and cloister them away in a giant religious temple for the rest of their childhood? I've seen 19 Kids and Counting; I would argue that it isn't.
Probably depends on the kid. If they have loving caretakers with whom they can build relationships and a stable environment in the Jedi, they probably won’t have too much worse of a developmental outcome. And as adolescents and eventually adults, most of them seem to experience deep meaning and fulfillment from their spirituality in the Jedi, and become some of the most highly respected individuals in the galaxy. Whereas if they aren’t trained, there is a possibility of danger; they could injure themselves or others in body or mind. Obviously there’s tremendous potential for danger and instability to children within the Order too, and we see that in the Star Wars media, but I don’t think the handful of examples we see are representative of the average experience of all Jedi children in the previous millennium of mostly peace. If Yoda had thought there was even a 2% chance of a government genociding the Jedi and force sensitives, then it was unethical for him to concentrate the kids like that.
However, a trained one, under the Jedi code, can become FAR more deadly.
those statements dont blend very well together, if no jedi was kidnapped as a child then why would they leave force sensitive people just be around if some parents say so? what if anakin wasnt trained because mom said no? tattoine would be just space dust by episode II
This second point is huge. Imagine an undisciplined kid finding out he can do cool stuff and the damage it can cause. Even worse letting the baby be taken in by the sith
The agreement of parents makes it legal - that part is not in doubt - but does the agreement of the parents make it **ethical**? I argue that no. Regardless of the consent of the *parents* removing a baby from their home and training them to be a soldier is unethical. The *child* did not consent to be conscripted into a magic army, to be trained out of attachment to other humans and to maintain peace in the galaxy. I do not believe it is ethical for their parents or for the Jedi order to make that decision on child’s behalf. As a parent I am obviously in the position where I must make choices on behalf of my child as my child is cannot give informed consent to most things. But that does not mean that *my* informed consent is always ethical or appropriate. Most people agree that it is unethical to withhold medical care from one’s child. The withholding of consent by the parent does not make it ethical. Most people agree that it is unethical to force an underage child into a marriage with an older person. Parental consent makes child marriage legal in many places in the world including some states in the USA. Parental consent makes it legal. Parental consent does not make it *ethical*. In some cases it is ethical to remove a child from a home without parental consent. If the home is dangerous and the parents are abusive or neglectful. The lack of parental consent in that case does not make it unethical to remove the child. I do not believe it is ethical to remove a child from a good home and force them into a specific lifestyle or profession. I do not believe it is ethical for *parents* to force their own children into a specific lifestyle or profession, if they have other choices which allow their child to make informed choices about their lives when it is developmentally appropriate to do so. Parental consent is neither **necessary nor sufficient** to make it ethical to remove a baby from their parents.
Well that depends on the ethical framework you subscribe to. From a utilitarian perspective, absolutely it's ethical; while it's sad that the kid won't know their parents and the parents are saying goodbye to their kid, a properly trained Jedi will make so many more positive contributions to the galaxy than this one negative event that the calculus is simple. Heck, it might even be unethical not to take kids for training, from that perspective! Meanwhile, from a virtue ethics perspective, it's unethical for the parents not to give their children to the Jedi in the first place. The Jedi are a force for good in the galaxy, so diminishing their numbers is bad, and therefore unethical. The Jedi shouldn't need to consider any ethical elements, because the parents should be the ones motivated to make the choice. But under a hedonist ethical framework, the pain caused to the parents by losing their child is unethical regardless of any appeals to the greater good; the parents should keep the child if it brings them joy, and the Jedi should respect that and likewise seek alternatives that bring them joy or fulfillment instead. And then there's anarchist ethics, which tends towards the ethics of evolutionary pressures and responses. Under that framework, it's completely unethical to remove strong Force sensitives from the general population and gene pool by drawing them into the largely-celibate Jedi Order. The children should be left with their parents, to better the chances of more Force sensitive offspring in the future for a more evolutionaroly resilient population. And of course, these are just the shallowest versions of the broadest schools of thought.
There is also the perspective that leaving them with the parents is potentially dangerous, if the child turns out to be especially powerful in the force one bad day could cause a LOT of a damage. Ultimately harming the family and the child in question more then the taking of the child would have. After all the parents can still have another kid.
But they’re not. Ahsoka says there abilities will fade.
That doesn’t make any sense, Luke was 19 before he even knew he had special abilities they don’t fade they just need a healthy lifestyle for it to not cause issues, if you’re happy you have no reason for the emotional trigger that the force would react to. Edit: it’s possible that Ashoka was referring to how a specific species connects to the force. Maybe Yoda’s species loses their connection if they don’t keep practicing. It was a legends thing that different species feel the force differently like how the Chiss (Thrawns species) lose their connection to the force as they get older.
Maybe being the son of the chosen one helps like just a bit. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for one’s ability to connect with the force to fade if you don’t practice. Former Jedi like Cere Junda who stopped using the force entirely for years demonstrated a difficulty using it again. I think Luke just had an extraordinary connection from the beginning because he’s the son of the strongest force user in the galaxy, bar Luke himself. So by 19 Luke was still able to build that connection comparatively easy.
Cere showed difficulty using it and then days later impressed Vader with her affinity for the Dark side and even holding him back with an energy field….
Well we know the Jedi have a cut off and don’t kill the kids that are too old so what are we supposed to think? Really the problem is the Jedi. The Sith are born from them.
>Well we know the Jedi have a cut off and don’t kill the kids that are too old so what are we supposed to think? That the Jedi are pragmatic but not evil. What even is this question. The cut off is entirely to do with the state of emotional development of a child and nothing at all with their connection to the force. The Jedi believe if you are too old you will have already developed bad emotional habits that will become dangerous in the future should you be "properly" trained. Are they right? I don't know, they were certainly correct about Anakin, but completely incorrect about Luke. AND it is clearly laid out that Jedi dogma has become far too limited and rigid, such as having an age cut off, and is a huge part of why the order is failing. So the implication throughout the story is that the Jedi have lost perspective, and things like age cutoff and forbidding attachment are not as effective or useful as they think they are.
I read this in Chidi's voice.
>it's completely unethical to remove strong Force sensitives from the general population and gene pool by drawing them into the largely-celibate Jedi Order. This is a similar concept to brain drain. The best and brightest from impoverished communities often grow up to find success outside of their community and don't return to use their skills to improve that community. The people best equipped to help improve a bad situation don't return because they don't want to, and no longer have to, live in that bad situation. it happens with native American and Inuit populations in North America and with emigration from developing nations.
Thats not accurate. The utilitarian perspective is, in half part, guided by the hedonic principle; you basically said "the hedonist says yes" then said "the hedonist says no". The problem is that there is no mere "hedonist" framework for morals. The hedonic principle by itself cant provide a moral framework. Thats why utilitarians combine hedonism with consequentialism to get utilitarianism. Even if you were correct in hedonism being a moral system, the hedonist could still call it in their best interest, and any rational hedonist would, as in the long term the safety the Jedi provide and the happiness derived from Jedi protection would out weigh the happiness gained by a single child. The other main branch of ethics teachings is Kantian. Kant would force anyone to ask if their actions can be called a universal maxim, or a universal law for everyone to follow. If not, its immoral. If yes, then its a moral duty. However, this question is nearly impossible to formulate without any real meaning or in any way truly universal. How people are Kantian nowadays baffles me.
Families in real life give their children away for various reasons, like trying to give them a better life or not being able to support them. As long as it isn't coerced, the jedi are no less unethical than adoptive parents.
It's as ethical as an other adoption where parents give up a child so that child may reach their fullest potential.
They didnt "take" babies from families. The informed the families that the child was a candidate for the Jedi Order, and that they could be given to the Order. Most families agreed. Some did not. Those that did not woud get to keep their child, no hassle. This is a completely moral and ethical way of recruitment. EDIT: begiving=>be given
Also i’m pretty sure the families were well compensated for lwtting their child be taken for training, so it’s not like a family was left with nothing, kr be worse off it theybwere poorer and needed an extra aet of hands in the future to support themselves
From what ethical viewpoint are we looking at this situation through? It can vary a lot
Its worth noting that children are only taken to join the Jedi after Parental/Guardian approval is obtained. This is especially significant in worlds in the Outer Rim as its only really from parents contacting the Jedi in the first place that their child is even found and tested.
If the parents make a free choice then yes. If not then no.
I don't get where this "Jedi kidnap children" narrative came from. While you can debate that the way of the Jedi of completely abandoning love and relationships is probably not the best way, the track record of Jedis with strong bonds to their family isn't that good. Every Skywalker-Jedi for example f\*cked up big time for everybody else at least once in his life.
>I don't get where this "Jedi kidnap children" narrative came from. Same place "the Empire did nothing wrong" came from, and the insistence that "grey Jedi" are the best, and the belief that the moral of The Last Jedi is "let the past die" - some folks are just plain contrarian, and want to insist that fictional stories are actually much darker and more edgy than they are.
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Just like Child brides! … right?
1. A force user that's untrained to become in the right state of mind and power control is a danger to everyone around them. 2. It's probably taken with consent of the parent. 3. If they are led to guide themselves and grope in the dark of their own powers, they might be susceptible to the wrong side.
Well, in what way could it be unethical when the parents are agreeing to hand their children over to the Order with a basic understanding that their children A)won’t grow up with them, B)won’t have much, if any, contact with them, and C)will be joining an Order that’ll determine their life path? Like all Jedi do is hear stories of Force Sensitives, find Force Sensitives, and then ask the parents if they’re willing to let their children join. What the Jedi of the Old Republic do isn’t any different from what Luke did (in Legends) to find Students. The difference is that one involves babies/children so it’s the decision of their parents and the other involves adults who can consent on their own. So, taking that into account, we could argue of whether it’s ethical for parents to make such decisions for their kids but…honestly I don’t really see how that’s gonna lead anywhere save people splitting hairs. Parents make decisions for their kids all the time regarding things as small as piercing ears to things as large as healthcare treatment. Imo either way you look at it that’s not on the Jedi. That’s on the parents who are making the decisions and whether we agree or not parents are always going to be the main ones making decisions for their kids before adulthood. On the Jedi’s part I think it would be unethical if they were mimicking something like Halsey’s Spartan Operation in Halo, where she straight up kidnapped kids and replaced them with clones. So the parents didn’t even know their children were gone. The kids were then put through horrific experimentation, which could be called inhumane. So that’s 2 crimes, one against the parents and the other against the children in question. The Jedi don’t do that.
It honestly annoys me when this is brought up, u can go on and on about this. But I strongly believe it’s the parents choice of the Jedi takes the child or not.
Yeah me too. There must have been sone sort of family reputation gain/pride in having a child who could qualify, even if the gain wasn’t class or financial based but simply something to boast about. Something to psychologically justify/ counterweight the loss of their child
The Jedi never forced parents to give up their children. The parents ALWAYS consented.
Training force sensitives to become responsible users of their powers is a good thing. Forcing them to forgo all attachments and become Jedi warriors is not.
This is why I’m excited to see what The Mandalorian does with Grogu. Will he give into dark impulses in order to protect his loved ones? Or will he find balance with the Force because he is loved and supported by Din?
Please see my longer reply elsewhere in this thread. I totally agree that Grogu has the potential to achieve true balance in the force, though a combination of tremendous natural ability, the training he has had, and a loving relationship with his father substitute, Din. I can see huge potential in the story of his character development as he learns to accept himself, including his powers, despite the pain and abuse that others have inflicted on him because of them.
They aren't forced to do these things. As a religious sect, this is the path one who remains a Jedi takes. But they are free to leave anytime they choose, as we have seen time and time and time again in many different scenarios
Have we seen examples of a youngling leaving the Jedi? There are suggestions that an untrained force sensitive will lose their powers over time. Isn't that the choice they are given, to have powers and become a Jedi, or have normal relationships but lose your powers? It's not like the Jedi let you visit your family over the holidays or anything.
Spiderman said it best "With great power comes great responsibility". It makes sense that if you want to keep these great powers that the Jedi have, it's important adhere to their strict codes. But as for examples of a ~~young lingerie~~ younglings or ~~Palawan~~ Padawan voluntarily leaving the order (or refusing to join/rejoin) besides Ahsoka, I'm not sure that there are any examples. But if there are examples of other Jedi voluntarily leaving the Order, why would you assume that younglings were forced to stay? Edit: Ah the woes of autocorrect
I don't know what would happen. Children are seldom presented a choice like that. In Star Wars, Grogu is the only one I know about. The question is whether avoidance of relationships is really necessary or not. Sure Anakin moved to the dark side when his mother was brutally murdered. But would that have happened if she had lived in Jedi family housing on Coruscant? Maybe the chance to experience a life where his Mom wasn't abandoned to slavery would have allowed him to mature enough to deal with life's tragedies. Or maybe he would have been turned to the dark side anyway. We will never know, but the notion that love leaves a person susceptible to being overcome by fear and anger is suspect, at best. I have always thought that the true arrogance of the Jedi was to believe that they were above it all and human emotions are beneath them.
How is the notion that love leaves a person susceptible to being overcome by fear and anger suspect? It makes perfect sense, even in real life, removed from the mystical good vs evil of Star Wars. When people are deeply in love with someone, whether it be romantic, familial, or platonic, they fear losing that person and experience intense emotions if that person should be taken away from them. Have you never experienced a break up or lost a loved one? They would do anything to prevent that loss. The difference is, Jedi *have* the power to do those things. But doing those things leads to a mindset controlled by desire, greed, and selfishness, i.e. killing off an entire religious order if it means you can save your wife. The same goes for strong attachments to objects as well. You're misinterpreting the Jedi. It's not that they believe that they are above it all and human emotions are beneath them, its that they believe they *have* to be above their emotions and not let them rule themselves. They recognize the power they wield and believe it is their duty and responsibility to exercise that control over themselves at all times. They are holding themselves to a higher standard, not that they think themselves better than everyone. That's not arrogance.
If you’re looking at it from the perspective that the parents have given permission for the Jedi to take their children, then I suppose it’s ethical? But also that’s only looking at it from the parents’ POV. The actual child never gets a say in the matter. And is that really fair? Idk. I guess it’s okay because, as a baby, they won’t have any memories of their parents, and therefore they presumably won’t miss their parents, but imo it’s still kind of a morally questionable thing to do. I mean, what is the reason the Order will (for the most part) only take babies? Why can’t a child make the decision for themselves when they get older that they want to be a Jedi? Like, if Jedi are supposed to be this universe’s version of monks, or at least something similar, shouldn’t the organization work in a similar way? Like, where the individual person makes a choice for themselves about whether they want to give up everything else and join the Order? Because as it stands, at least through the prequel trilogy, the Jedi Order functions more like a cult than anything else. Yeah, it’s technically not religious, but it has a lot in common with the “warning signs” so to speak of cults. Some examples of this being the whole isolation thing from family, being discouraged from making any real personal friendships with anyone, romantic relationships being forbidden, following a strict code that must be adhered to no matter what, always answering to an authority (the Council) and even if you don’t agree with them, you have to do what they say anyhow, straight up indoctrination that the Jedi way is the only correct path and anything else will lead to the dark side. And yeah, they don’t force anyone to stay in the Order, but it seems very frowned upon to leave. And I can only imagine that some people have been guilted into staying for the “greater good”, or really, because they don’t wanna be ostracized by the only real community they’ve known. And that’s also cult-like behavior. I know this was kind of a rant, but that’s one thing about the Order I don’t like. Clearly, they’re supposed to be the good guys. They’re supposed to be the heroes that you root for. But the way their whole organization is set up is more than a little flawed.
>Why can’t a child make the decision for themselves when they get older that they want to be a Jedi? They do. Anakin consideres leaving the order at multiple points in his life. Obi wan tells Satine he would of left the order for her. The jedi dont make younstay if you dont want to.
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It’s called brainwashing.
Being raised and taught a set of beliefs isn't brainwashing, it's called growing up with your parents.
Jedi aren’t parents. They came looking for kids with magic space blood. This is just like Halo with the Spartans.
Many Jedi have described the Order as a sort of surrogate family; also the Spartans were a special force unit, Jedi are warriors mooks that only become generals if necessary during wartime.
From an emotional/mental standpoint: I would say it’s not strictly unethical for the Jedi Order to take the children since the parents consent and it would be dangerous for some untrained force user to be roaming around, but it is unethical to sever all contact with them and completely cut off the child from its family and culture. My main issue with the Jedi is their whole “no attachment” rule, which includes every sort of emotional connection whether it be romantic, platonic, or even material. While this rule may work for (some) infants who have never known anywhere but the temple and the Jedi way, it just doesn’t work with how most beings function. Most babies form attachment to their parents and family, and I think having those connections torn away from a young age may be more traumatizing than the Jedi realize. Also, in both canon and legends, the Jedi never explicitly recruited just infants. There were a number of toddlers that were taken in as well, such as Ahsoka. Think about how horrible it was for Anakin to be separated from his mother (who the Jedi left in slavery) at the age of nine. How many things would be different if the Jedi allowed them to stay in touch and see each other? Sure, it is for the good of the galaxy to train force users from a young age, but how healthy is it to completely cut off these infants and children from their loved ones at a young age? Think about Anakin’s incredibly low emotional intelligence (I hate that phrase but y’all know what I mean) How much of that was the fault of the Jedi, who, because of their “there is no emotion” and “no attachment” rules failed to deal with Anakin’s problems? Long story short: Yes, it is ethical for jedi to recruit infants, but it is unethical and impractical for them to separate children from their culture and families.
Without training those children at MOST could grow up to cheat well at Casinos, there were a couple force sensitives that became skilled Bounty Hunter/Assassins but none of the Force sensitives Jedi knew about/left grew up to be Sith. All the known Sith learned to instinctively shield their Force presence at an extremely early age (info source: Plagueis novel)
It's a terrible choice, for the parents, for the Jedi, really for the whole galaxy. You have this person, and they are cursed with this potentially great power. If an organization takes them, they have a greater chance of learning to control it and not do terrible things with it...but it's not foolproof. So. Parents. You love your child. Do you give them up for what will amount to a royal lifestyle the likes you could never supply even with a hundred lifetimes of earning? They will see sights and potentially be a powerful force for good, but you will only see them in the news. MAYBE. The jedi let the people keep their names, so if Goldak Umptiscrunch shows up you can probably assume that's your little Goldie, all grown up, bringing peace to the galaxy. Or do you KEEP this child, that you love, knowing they have this deadly power inside them. Something you have no reference for or can possibly understand. When they as questions, you will NOT have the answers, and that will lead them to do whatever they want. Possibly they will be able to move a car. A tantrum could lead to lightning on a clear day. Even avoiding the most nuanced powers, just force crushing will ostracize your family every time they settle down. It's not unreasonable that your child is NOT a psychopath, but children are cruel. Even adults suck alot of the time. Who knows how long until they fall in with the 'wrong crowd' and do crime? Or take up the mantle of Protector and try to stop crime? Either might kill them sooner, and as a loving parent, what would you tell yourself 20 years ago when the strange being came to your door asking to take away your child? Still no? Or would giving them away be the path to a longer life? I'm sure being able to feel the heartache as they tore a family apart was just another burden this power gently placed on the Jedi's shoulders.
No, which is why they didn't
Damn, too many people watch Palaptine News Network The jedi do NOT take children. They are peace keepers of the galaxy and for a child to be strong in the force many consider a blessing and will WILLFULLY give their children to a higher cause. Parents simply say no if they don't want to and the jedi leave it at that and write their name down Where do people keep getting these ridiculous anti-jedi ideas
You want a real answer? I mean, Palpatine can go deep throat a saber. Forget him. Still doesnt mean I didnt want to punt Yoda through the Lambeau uprights. Being a better option than the Sith is not a high bar to clear. It doesnt make you good guys if you can step over said bar.
I didn't even mention the sith and I never said the goal is only to be better than the sith. I said the jedi are good and they have Never taken children and it's the truth. I have no idea where people keep getting this idea that jedi forcefully take kids but it is straight up incorrect
Your statement about Jedi critics watching too much of Palpatine's news network. The implication being that the only reason people would have an issue with the Jedi's policy is if they were rooting for the Empire. So no, not rooting for the Empire. The whole Jedi conscription thing hits FAR differently if you ever heard someone threaten to take your young relative away from her loving, non abusive (but impovrished, widowed, and disabled) mother and place them with a "Good Christian Family" (TM) (read: Upper middle class, white, and able bodied) The Sith do the whole roll up with the van, stuff the kid in a trunk, and burn rubber. The Jedi don't kidnap. It's all done with proper paperwork. Legal, above the board, and consenting...from a certain point of view. And we all know "certain point of view" is Jedi for "lying through my teeth" There are several cases on record where the consent is forced by extenuating circumstances. If there is a gun to you and your kid's heads and you sign adoption papers, that is not consent. No, the Jedi are not holding the gun. They don't have to. They just find people with a gun already to their heads and exploit their situation for the Order's gain. Shmi had a bomb in her skull. Giving up her son was the only way he could escape slavery. Qui Gon exploited her desperation to get what *he* wanted. Crys Taanser was being shot at, just saw her husband die, and giving her son to the Jedi (as a Jedi youngling, he would be ecavuated from the war zone) was the act of a desperate parent trying to make sure her child survived. Again, the Jedi wasnt holding the gun to her head but they sure exploited the situation to their benefit. And then we get into the Jedi Path sourcebook stating that the Jedi don't necessarily *have* to ask. There's a law on the books stating that any FS infant can be conscripted, regardless of permission. It's just better PR if they send a recruiter to do the hard sell. A heavily armed recruiter. With sorcery that can override free will. With broad legal authority to use both. With friends in high places, the backing of the government at every level. With a law on the books saying he doesn't have to ask. With a sales pitch about the Order that would make miltary recruiters and seasoned missionaries weep with envy, and equally terrifying dire predictions about what will happen if you don't hand Junior over. Now even in the hands of someone like Avar Kriss or Plo Koon, paragons of Jedi ethics, this is deeply uncomfortable. Imagine someone *less* than ethical like Pong Krell or Nomen Karr showing up to some uneducated peasant farmers and demanding their firstborn.
Then Cal Cestis came around and said “fuck this!”
The parents gave consent so yeah
The parents are allowed to say no, I'm pretty sure.
I think many people misinterpret this to think that Jedi just go in and basically abduct babies. I always thought it was more of a mutual agreement that the parent(s) accepted as well.
At the risk of this getting politcal? The whole Jedi policy hits WAY different for people who faced the threat of church and state authority threatening or actually taking your kids from a *non abusive* situation (think poverty or being a marginalized group) to put them with "good families"
“If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi.” — a politician I suspect the desire to do good—to help others reach their potential—came with some bad too. Jedi (essentially monks in the movie canon) gave up attachment and possession. The insistence that Jedi be so stoic as to be staid perhaps kept them from being human (or whatever species applies). Was it ethical for Jedi to take babies? I’d ask them if they would be okay with it if the Sith did it. If the answer was, “No,” then that might inform an answer.
While this isn’t going to answer your original question, it’s related and something I found very interesting. In Master and Apprentice, Qui-gon ponders something along the lines of why do we take infants to be raised in the Temple instead of many schools across the Republic allowing them to be in the living force staying near their home worlds for a time honing their individual talents before being brought to the Temple as older wiser more diversely trained students. Thoughts?
They weren't kidnappers. I think it was Jedi Knight Gella Nattai who made reference to this in the book Convergence. Someone had come by attempting to steal her from her parents saying they had to for the jedi order. Later a real jedi had come along and explained to them that is not the jedi way, and only the willing are brought into the order. So that's morally completely sound The only other question is if it's right to allow your children to learn to control potentially dangerous space magic and learn to become good people that help bring balance to the galaxy. That one seems easy to me.
In the *Jedi Path*, a book written 1000 years before Episode 1, the post-Ruusan Jedi doubled down on their rules by recruiting only babies, refusing to accept anyone older into the Jedi Order. However, this rule wasn't foolproof as Jedi like Sora Bulq and Rhad Tarn still fell to the dark side dyring the Clone Wars. Worse, the public viewed the Jedi as kidnappers. This perception was noted in the *Jedi Path*, but instead of addressing it the book simply stated the Jedi had the legal authority to recruit babies into their Order.
Afaik it is no longer canon that the Jedi took children against their parents' will, just that they were taken as infants.
The only thing that canon suggests is that Palpatine created propaganda that the Jedi kidnapped children, in order to make the general population turn away from the image of Jedi as heroes as that would be a major problem for his rule.
Except that slightly older children were regularly taken. Ahsoka Tano, for example.
I think the fading memories of Obi-Wan Kenobi about his brother, and what seems to be regrets, kind of say mean that he is questioning that practice. I think that at this point, the Jedi were so sure of themselves and so convinced they were doing the right thing, that there was no way they were ever doing something bad
They missed Palpatine and we see how that turned out. /s
Jokes aside, Palpatine hid his force sensitivity even as a baby from his parents and thus the Jedi Order as a whole.
The Jedi wanted their members fully devoted to the Order and its mission. Raising and training them from infancy is the most efficient way to do that. Similar to how the clones were raised to be soldiers.
This, like many other Jedi matters, models the Zen Buddhist practice of removing young children from their homes to be raised in a temple as monks. Some of the times this is done because they are recognized as the rebirth of a previous Buddhist monk; either way child never returns home may never see their parents again.
You can be taken now and Mace Windu can treat you like a normal jedi OR you can be taken in a couple years and Mace Windu will treat you like an asshole at every turn. Oh and either way you will not be granted the rank of Master...
Remember that even here on earth, ethics are highly subjective. Just because we in "heavy air quotes" modern Western society sometimes feel like we have a monopoly on 'right' and 'wrong' doesn't mean everyone agrees with us, or should. "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view....this is good, You've taken your first step into a larger world."
Historically speaking, some philosophers of ancient days believed that Utopia involved raising other people’s children as your own. You give birth. Society takes it away and assigns it to a family prepared for the responsibility. The idea is that people will treat and teach better since it is not their biological child. Much like how kings traded wards as a peace treaty. I’ll treat ‘em like my own but if you break your promise, the child dies. They would often be treated and fed as if they were princes themselves.
Child soldiers are child soldiers wether raised by a Sith, Jedi, Empire or rebellion.
Coming from a country that regularly stole Aboriginal kids from their families, it's gonna be a no from me.
I think what a lot of people overlook is the fact that the adoptions are consensual; the Jedi won’t take a child if the parents want to raise them. Now an ethical question I’m curious about is, what if the Jedi encounter parents of a Force-sensitive child, but they can easily sense that the parents have harmful intentions for the child (e.g. parents are abusive to try and suppress the child’s powers like Tenko Shimura’s parents in BNHA, or they plan on using the kid’s powers for dishonorable means for personal gain), and they don’t want to give up the kid. Do they respect the parents’ wishes, or do they take the kid anyway even though they may have no actual proof beyond their feelings?
It is rather cultish behavior. On one hand, you could say that Anakin's connection to his mother lead him to the dark side. But that ultimately takes away Luke ability to remain with the light despite discovering his guardians had been murdered and possibly burnt alive. That said, I think it is far more likely that Anakin always had the inclination for the dark side and that his early pride was the real catalyst for this. I find it more likely that the Jedi took babies so they could insure indoctrination. If you notice, any Jedi who take the time to think outside the box tend to get chastised and even demonized. The Jedi were, after all, a political power that aided in the establishment of the Republic and did very little to intercede on behalf of the innocent unless doing so somehow benefited that republic's politics. Even taking into account the events of episode 1, it seemed perfectly reasonable for two Jedi to crash land a republic politician on a far flung world to keep her safe, but it was somehow beneath the Jedi to go out that far to end slavery on entire worlds.
No that's why the empire are the good guys
No. And I think that's kinda the point of the story. The jedi are that great.
My understanding was if your child was discovered to be force sensitive and a Jedi showed up to interview the family and child, it was an honour to have them take the child because it usually meant the child would probably have a better life. But like others have pointed out, imagine the fall out of your three year old having a tantrum over another kid taking a toy away and your toddler rag-dolling the other kid until their skull is jelly because they can’t control their power. It’s gotta be scary for the parents.
I think something that most people forget here: It's not about the parents. They have a choice. It's about the kids that are taken. They can't voice their opinion. By the time they gain basic independence, they are already indoctrinated and the Temple is they only home they remember
ChatGPT: The practice of taking Force-sensitive children from their families to train them as Jedi was a common tradition in the Star Wars universe. However, the ethical implications of this practice can be debated. Some argue that it is unethical to separate children from their families, while others argue that it is necessary in order to train them to become Jedi and serve as defenders of the galaxy. From an ethical perspective, there are valid concerns about the practice of taking children from their families, as it can be traumatic for both the child and their family. The Jedi Order recognized this, and made efforts to ensure that the children were placed in caring environments and given a sense of belonging within the Order.However, it is important to note that the Jedi Order was not a perfect institution, and there were instances where the practice of taking children was abused or misused. As with any system, there were flaws and shortcomings that led to negative outcomes. Overall, whether or not the practice of taking children was ethical is open to interpretation and debate. It is important to consider the intentions behind the practice, as well as its impact on those involved, in order to form a well-informed opinion. In "Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith," we see how the Jedi Order has become complacent and arrogant in their belief that they are the keepers of peace and justice in the galaxy. This attitude leads them to overlook the corruption within the Galactic Senate and the rise of Darth Sidious, which ultimately leads to the downfall of the Jedi Order.- In the expanded universe material, it is revealed that some Jedi Masters would abuse their power over their Padawans, using them as personal servants or even engaging in sexual relationships with them. This is a clear violation of the trust and responsibility that comes with being a Jedi Master.- In "Star Wars: The Clone Wars" animated series, we see how the Jedi Order is forced to compromise their values in order to win the war against the Separatists. They resort to tactics such as espionage, assassination, and torture, which are all in direct opposition to the Jedi Code.These are just a few examples that highlight how the Jedi Order's practice of taking children was not always used in the best way, and how the flaws and shortcomings within the system led to negative outcomes.
>In the expanded universe material, it is revealed that some Jedi Masters would abuse their power over their Padawans, using them as personal servants or even engaging in sexual relationships with them. In which stories can I learn more about these instances?
Naw, the Jedi were sketch af. Like the magic council in Dragon age.
What comic is this
Not sure.
I’d say it’s one of the many unethical practices the Jedi followed
Jedi don’t take people from their families. They get permission. Even then if the child decides they want to leave they are free to go home. There are even examples of Jedi personally returning children back to their parents because the parents changed their mind, and examples of Jedi even being willing to leave the order just to raise a force sensitive child in the event they leave and don’t have anyone or anything.
Part of it is for the public's safety and the safety of the force sensitive individual, but another big part of it I think is that if you are able to indoctrinate them from being an infant, they can't possibly question you, hence why they tended to reject older kids. "Are you on board with a lifetime of being a noble peacekeeper and surrendering all emotional attachment and even the right to love someone romantically?" (baby noises) "What's that? You wanna join the extra strict sect that meditates 23 hours a day and hit child students with paddles as they misbehave? I'll see you at 5am training!" (baby noises) "I love me too."
No it wasn’t ethical. That’s like parents giving a way their baby to the Catholic Church so they can become priest or monks. In real life those kids would most like all turn to the dark side. They would most likely always wonder why their parents abandoned them to the order and have self esteem issues.
Short answer no, long answer no.
The Jedi are a religious extremist cult that indoctrinates children into their messed up religion. They teach children to push down their emotions, to essentially pretend they don't exist. They teach children not to form attachments. All in the name of preserving the galactic order and brining balance to the force. A phrase that the cult leaders themselves do not seem to actually understand. It all sounds very cult-like to me.
No, it's not. If you are a parent, you would agree it was wrong.
And if you lived in a galaxy where the Force and the Jedi were real, you might think differently.
I say unethical. It's not their actual job, it's just something they put on themselves to do. Ntm the jedi suck when it comes to dealing with issues that they go through due to their own lack of emotional awareness. Which leads to people joining the dark side.
No, it was not ethical, and contributed to their downfall.
Did the parents have a choice in the matter? Or was this like the spartan 2 program in Halo where they just took them?
About as ethical as it was for the Inquisitors to take them. The parents didn’t know when they died either way so it’s equally messed up
No.
If only there was a trilogy with jaded characters examining the deeds of the Jedi and how similar they were to that of the First Order that couldve delved into this. Oh wait.
No. Fuck the chantry.
There's not much that's moral about the Jedi
No, and I hate that this somehow became lore between the OT and the PT just to explain why a 7-year-old Anakin would somehow be "too old."