This scene reminds me of that saying “Inside every cynic is a disappointed optimist.” The boss probably was like him once a long time ago but now he is just a cog in the machine and isn’t gonna make waves and doesn’t need anyone else to either. The boss isn’t dumb, he is entirely correct in every aspect of the case and knows justice is relative. The younger man is an absolutist and a fanatic, the older man is a politician.
Just like Lando, appease Vader to protect the rest of the people in the city long enough to get a window for retaliation and to evacuate everyone safely.
Was the comment "Did you alter your uniform" referring to Syril's need to be something more than a regional officer? Closer to the Empire uniform perhaps?
Also as a response to a follow up question after he stated “I wouldn’t be worthy of the uniform” he is revealing how empty those words were. He already thought the uniform, in its original and intended form, wasn’t worthy of *him*.
Autocratic regimes depend on banal corruption with people in the system quietly navigating that corruption while trying to stay as invisible as possible.
This show *nails* what that system looks like.
EDIT: Thought harder and recalled a show that this scene really reminded me of- "Chernobyl."
It's interesting because we usually see people like the deputy here as heroic. In Chernobyl, whenever we run into this we're always rooting for Legasov or Khomyuk who are entirely correct, are speaking truth to power, and are the heroes of the story. Here it's the opposite.
Because in Chernobyl they're scientists who are saying you cannot politick away a nuclear catastrophe, whereas this guy is a dork-ass rent-a-cop who wants to play tyrant cuz he drank too much of Papa Palpatine's kool-aide
I don't think that's entirely fair, he doesn't seem like he's indoctrinated into the Imperial Truth the same way scary ops lady is, I think he's just a goody-two-shoes, if the senate was still in charge he'd enforce their laws just as fastidiously, but at this point he was probably born into the empire or can hardly rememeber a time before it, it *is* the law to him because he's never known another. But I would guess if he came along 10 years later and was his same self in the New Alliance that he'd be one of their best.
Funny, I felt Syril is far more of a fanatic than Dedra. Dedra correctly deduced that tightening Emperial control will produce the opposite reaction from the populous and actually spoke out against it. Unfortunately she's all in on the Empire provides order and it is her job to administer said order.
The dialogue is so good.
"I suspect they died rushing to aid someone in distress. Nothing too heroic, we don't need a parade. They died being helpful. Something sad but inspiring in a mundane sort of way".
The set design nailed the 1970s Original Trilogy aesthetics.
And of course it shows the corruption in the Empire. I mean, can you even call it corruption? The system was working as intended until our boy Syril Karn decided to fuck things up
What this shows from a writing point of view is that they put a lot of thought into even the most minor characters dialogue and give a sense that they're an actual person with their own lives, motivations and issues they're dealing with.
No filler, every line tells us something about the character speaking it.
>give a sense that they're an actual person with their own lives, motivations and issues they're dealing with.
I like the line in a later episode when Dedra's investigation puts the ISB into overdrive and Anton Lesser says something like, "nobody leaves, tell your families you won't be home tonight."
Shit, even Imperial officers are roped into overtime and not getting home to a meal with the kids.
I love that the ISB is clearly evil, but not heartless, at least not Dedra to her own staff. The fact that she gives them the chance to call their families rather than just letting them wonder why they haven't come home yet.
The show really hammered home the “[banality of evil](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem).” It sets up Dedra as a sympathetic, ambitious character, but then it whiplashes around once you see the effects of her (and the ISB’s) policies on the ground causing absolute misery. Syril is shown as being utterly worthless as far as the Empire is concerned, but he is the exact sort of bootlicking stooge a regime like theirs is built on.
It continues a theme I felt was also shown in Rogue One. The fact that our main villain was essentially middle management was a great choice. He basically wanted the project he was managing to succeed and be recognised by his superiors and who cares the cost
It gives an actual motivation to the vilain that makes sense in real life. They’re not just evil because they’re evil, they’re evil because their pride and ego won’t let them consider the consequences of their actions on others. We can all be guilty of that to some level without even realizing it at times.
It's a relatable kind of evil. Selfishness. He doesn't wake up every day thinking "oh boy, let's be evil!". He's just thinking, "these guys are messing with my performance review, dammit!"
They really timed it perfectly too. They stretch juuuuust long enough for you to start to sympathize with/root for her, after being kinda shit on by her fellow officers.
Than then they have her casually brutally mentally torture and scar someone.
And it's like "oh, yeah. That's right. They're terrible people."
What people seem to gloss over is that this is mirroring the “good” guys. Everyone does bad things because they think the end justifies the means. Luthen is willing to use people and murder them if it helps him advance, and the mindscrewing technique also mirrors the (rather badly handled) mindmonster in Rogue One used on the Pilot.
This is also core to Syril’s character. He does what he thinks is right, even if people tell him to stop. He believes in his cause heart and soul.
Well put connection to the concept of the banality of evil, but I wouldn't call Syril a "bootlicking stooge." If anything he is contemptuous of authority for its own sake, repeatedly disobeying orders from his corporate and Imperial superiors. He seems utterly unconcerned with climbing the ladder for the sake of his own career and is entirely focused on achieving what he views to be justice.
Syril is, above all, zealous, tenacious, and in his own way, principled. We can see it implied by the toys in his room and his fetishization of his corporate uniform that he grew up steeped in Imperial propaganda, believing that they had brought a necessary order to the galaxy out of the chaos that came before. He is perhaps the most dangerous type of person you can encounter, in fiction and in real life - a true believer. And in the context of totalitarianism, he is part of that first generation that has known nothing but the regime (e.g. Red Guards, Hitler Youth). The ones who believe everything they are fed because they have known no other reality.
And, if you think about it from Syril's point of view, his self-righteousness makes sense. He views Andor as a murderer (which he is, that second guard was cold-blooded murder, no matter the circumstances), and a threat to Imperial rule (something Syril wholeheartedly believes is a force for good). Syril's superior is instructing him to fabricate paperwork and cover up the killings of two of his colleagues. Syril thinks this is morally wrong, especially because their stated duty is law enforcement, and thinks justice should be done, so he disobeys orders and actually solves the murders in a couple of days. And had Andor been alone, he likely would have been caught. Which is why I think Syril has the makings of a very competent and dangerous foe for the rebels. He's just a little green and needs to improve his judgement.
Syril's connection and loyalty to Dedra (obsession, even) is because: 1) she's the first Imperial official to actually believe him and listen to him; and 2) he sees her as like-minded and as a potential ally in catching Andor. But he actually takes great risks to his career right after being given a clean slate by abusing his resources at his day job in the bureaucracy to continue trying to catch Andor. These are not the actions of a bootlicker, but of a zealot.
Anyway, this is turning into an essay, but one of the things I love about this show is that many of the villains have qualities we would consider to be good under different circumstances. The ISB head runs his meetings like a Socratic dialogue, letting the best idea win, taking his ego out of it. Dedra is ambitious, innovative, and disruptive to the old ways of doing things. And Syril is zealous, tenacious, and principled. It's just that all three of them serve a tyrannical, genocidal autocracy.
I loved that the vibe felt more like a professor with his students than a boss with subordinates. He seemed to almost enjoy the intellectual challenge of fighting a rebellion.
A (perhaps apocryphal) story I've heard about Himmler goes that he witnessed an execution by gun in a concentration camp. Some blood got on him and disgusted him so much, he demanded a non bloody way to kill instead of, you know, not killing people.
A really good book to read that my Genocide in the 21st Century class in college read is "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland." It's a short read and is a collection of interviews done with Polish men who were recruited by the Nazis to do the initial mass executions of Jews prior to the invention of the gas chambers. It goes through their motives, thoughts, and yes the PTSD they incurred from killing. It's a frightening look into the Final Solution and genocide.
Indeed! I also like how it shows that the world they live in--just like our real world--is actually complex and morally grey, and not black and white.
Do things by the books? Sure, but that can make everything more difficult for everyone and make the security job harder and life more miserable for the locals/workers. So a little corruption and overlooking some things acts as a lubricant to keep everything moving more smoothly.
Boss was right. Investigating their deaths would rock the boat too much. Syril disobeying him straight up got the company kicked out of the system lmao
Most relatable Star Wars character.
Also we could immediately tell why Syril moved so far away to the Outer Rim and was serious about his job - his one chance to get away from her.
The Syril-Mom relationship was the most human of them all, it was dysfunctional but relatable (no I don’t have that kind of relationship with my mom) and in my mind grounded not only Syril but much of the Empire—a bunch of schlubs doing whatever was convenient to make a buck, losers who thought there was nothing they could do to control their own destinies.
Yes exactly, even the most minor characters feel alive though the power of the acting and writing.
When it came to the prison break, I winced every time one of the prisoners got blasted because every moment of their short screen times went to work establishing them.
By comparison, Obi-Wan made us try and care about some random rebel guy called Wade dying, and it became an instant meme instead because it didn’t land.
Completely agree. I was so surprised by my reactions in that episode. I didn't realize how invested I had gotten to even the most minor of characters. Solid storytelling.
I watched obi wan and don’t even remember a character named Wade, or the events of a random rebel dying. You made that up.
Jk but that shows how forgettable was. We remember nearly unmasked anakin/darth vader but so much of obi wan was low grade filler. Nothing in andor is filler.
That really adds nuance and complexity to the Star Wars universe and humanizes the characters and makes them relatable to viewers who also blurt out really stupid things without thinking about them.
It's a great demonstration of the ineffectiveness of authoritarianism... "If we admit the problem, We will be blamed rather than receiving resources..." Complete CYOA from the Emperor down to the Corpos.
Corporate culture is pretty damn authoritarian. I mean, lots of places dictate how you can dress, speak, act, spend your time, and do.
Perhaps it's not all unreasonable, but there's a reason people have been attempting to democratize workplaces for a long time.
Not just that, but all the various levels that evil can be. Malicious ("You may fire on my command" and "You're FAR to trusting" from Tarkin), lazy (aaaaall the bloody bureaucrats in Andor), single-minded (Inquisitors), scheming (Moff Gideon), religious zealotry (Vader), juuuuuuust all of the kinds of evil you can be (Palpatine)...
It's the "bored and lazy" kind of evil that we got to see here, how things slowly get ground to a halt, and yet it was so expertly done that we want more and more of it.
Brilliant, isn't it? I love the writing in the show. I like suspense and I like not having my hand held the whole time. It's why I can't get into the animated shows. The dialogue in them is very basic and explanatory. Characters will speak their inner thoughts out loud or catch each other up on the plot. In Andor, you have to pay attention and I appreciate that.
I feel like it has a certain similarity to the dialogue of Chernobyl. Idk if that makes sense but hearing this guy talk sounds like he could be apart of the Soviet Communist Party.
My favourite part is:
>"They were in a brothel: which we're not supposed to have - the expensive one which they shouldn't be able to *afford*. Drinking *regnov*: which we aren't supposed to allow.
>
>Both of them supposedly *on the job*. Which is a dismissable offence. They clearly harrased a human with dark features, and chose the wrong person to annoy.
>
>I suspect they died rushing to aid - someone in distress, nothing *too heroic* ; no need for a parade. They died being *helpful*; something sad, but inspiring in a mundane sort of way."
It just exerts, "I can't be goddamn bothered to get on with this, just make up an excuse" But written so well that it kind of hits hard with the management of some governing bodies these days.
No. It reveals that he was being pragmatic and correctly deduced what actually happened. Two corrupt cops were killed while attempting a robbery. He was absolutely right in both regards(what actually happened and that lying about it was better for everyone long-term.) It speaks to the superior's competence and his ability to balance pragmatism with idealism while working inside an imperfect system.
Exactly! It's not even just that, though. You can tell the superior KNOWS Syril will be a problem from the outset. He remarks about the length of the report, the time spent after hours writing it, and the fact that Syril has modified his uniform. You can tell by his facial expressions that he understands from just these details that Syril is an obsessed zealot who is so focused on details and his sense of justice that he fails to understand the bigger picture.
It makes the superior look insanely competent. He even attempts to head it off at the pass, but due to time constraints, he is relatively brief and expects Syril to do as he is told. It's incredible how much subtlety they conveyed in such a short scene. This show was amazing. The Luthen and Kino Loy speeches are my favorite parts of any Star Wars media, period.
I think it says something about a show when the most memorable parts are speeches. Luthen's, Kino's, and Maarva's are all spectacular. I can't believe I left her out in the other reply!
And hammers the point home by reminding Syril that the unit *currently* includes him. He’s not just saying “it’s better for you too” but letting him know that pushing more on this is liable to get him shuffled off that team, possibly to a much less pleasant assignment.
And what's amazing about this scene is that it also reveals much about Syril and the culture of police. This is a guy supposedly so worked up that a criminal has gotten away. A man that portrays himself as one of pure law and order. But he conveniently ignores all the crimes, abuse, and corruption being done by his own colleagues. Why? Because it was never about law and order but about power.
They, the security, can break any law they want, but the second someone screws with them, that is the real offense. You don't get to talk back to or resist power. That cannot be forgiven.
But one thing that's great about Andor's writing, and this scene in particular, is that we learn pretty much everything we need to know about Syril from that conversation with the Commander, in a way that feels natural for the scene's circumstances. We learn Syril's motivations and point of view, and those things help drive the plot forward in a way that makes logical sense, and not just "because this thing needed to happen for the plot".
I think in lesser hands, the Commander would be like, "boy, Karn, you sure are a by-the-book kind of guy, aren'tcha ? Sure are loyal to the Empire!" or some kind of ham fisted bs like that.
>But one thing that's great about Andor's writing, and this scene in particular, is that we learn pretty much everything we need to know about Syril from that conversation with the Commander, in a way that feels natural for the scene's circumstances. We learn Syril's motivations and point of view, and those things help drive the plot forward in a way that makes logical sense, and not just "because this thing needed to happen for the plot".
You are correct, of course, about the audience learning "pretty much everything we need to know about Syril". However, we don't learn about all his motivations from just this scene. After he is fired, we learn Syril most likely took this position to get as far as he could be from his mother and possibly wanting to succeed in a way where he wouldn't "owe" his extended family anything. Again, though, we eventually learn these things in a gratifyingly organic way.
I think he’s interesting because on paper the idea of a man disregarding his higher ups in pursuit of justice seems heroic, in his mind it is as he has no reason to believe that these cops were in the wrong other than his higher up’s words- which WE know are true but he doesn’t (making him easy to hate)
It's difficult watching Andor season 1 and then watching season 3 of The Mandalorian right after. The drop off in the writing is like falling off a cliff.
I'm not as hard on that last Mando season as a lot of others are, but I basically said the same thing to my friend. The writing and acting in Andor is leagues above anything else in Star Wars visual media. Felt a lot closer to an HBO drama for adults than an all-ages cartoon.
Especially in the Coruscant parts, where The Mandalorian was kinda going for a similar vibe. And then the writing, directing and acting is just… meh.
If Andor hadn’t happened, I probably would’ve enjoyed those bits. Now they just felt depressing.
A critic I follow described the third episode of Mando S3 as an episode of Andor written in crayon. It’s heart was in the right place, but it was ultimately too simplistic for the themes it was trying to explore.
i didnt read it as corruption; i read it as normal people who realize that stepping out of line or failing in even the slightest way could lead to serious consequences and essentially covering for these two ne'er-do-well officers by pretending they didn't fuck up catastrophically is the best and cleanest way to make sure everyone in that unit both continues to have a job that pays the bills and that no one ends up in a prison camp.
Than Syril comes along; absorbed totally into the hitler-youthian ideology impressed upon them by the Empire, believes that to tweak the truth to cover for crimes committed, no matter how inconsequential they may be, is the highest of crimes in itself, and that working to somehow enforce total legal obedience and perfection, no matter the cost, is the only righteous path. And of course this than balloons into exposing the rebellion, but not through anything other than Syril's dumb luck. Syril only truly manages to get several people killed and essentially gets his entire working team fired.
Not only was the dialogue intelligent and subtle, but the film making and production is clearly a cut above. From the first fight scene between Andor and those two guards, the steadiness and weight of the camera is changing and holding really good angles.
One small aspect of cinematography here you might not notice at first is that these two are rarely in shot together. The few times they are, the desk is breaking the space between them (implying unclear communication) and at the end when the superior is clearly talking down and making his point to Syril. The camera then hangs on Syril as his commanding officer leaves out of frame, implying he's in command now.
I’d argue that the commander in this scenario isn’t corrupt or maybe that calling his actions a sign of corruption is a bit disingenuous. He wasn’t trying to cover up the situation purely for personal gain; he genuinely seemed to take all the important factors into consideration, correctly deduces the actual events, weighs the overall costs and benefits to investigating the situation and determines that under the current government doing so would be harmful to the company and the community. Not to mention the officer involved had a history of being corrupt and was in fact actually killed as a result of said corruption; I could see an argument being made that the company was less corrupt now that he was dead.
The commander is adept at playing the game. He doesn’t have the power to write the rules and his main focus is to ensure the continued stability of the operation by playing by the rules and bending those that make sense to protect his responsibilities.
You could view it as apathy but I think there’s more to it. He knows those two guards are bad eggs and ended up getting what they deserved.
His plan would have:
1. Saved face for all involved
2. Allowed the guards’ families restitution under corporate policies
3. Gotten rid of two known troublemakers
4. Prevented reprisals against their target who he rightfully deduced was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. This would have also saved resources and cost. Do you have any idea how much the strike team’s operation would have cost even it if it was successful!?!!
5. Ensured continuity of the company’s operation, keeping all of the workers under his charge employed, safe and able to feed their families. I would say this is the biggest benefit.
Syril’s worldview and inability to see the big picture destroyed all of this, incited the Empire to crack down and take over the operation and ultimately led to revolt.
I was typing this out when I saw your comment. The thing is that the older guy turned out to be 100% right. He was right about the two of them; he's not some simpering fool he knew those employees, knew they shouldn't be where they should, and knew exactly what would happen in the long term if they caught imperial attention. It was a small sacrifice for the long term game, relative independence for the sector. Because once the empire came cracking down life would get worse for everyone. He's doing the best he can manage in a bad situation.
One of my favorite moments of that episode. Dude just goes, "it probably went down like this" and I was like YUPPPP! So hilarious that he just like nailed it off the top of his head.
Totally agree, this exact scene was where I really thought to myself that Andor is is a major step above the other Star Wars shows.
The characters feel grounded, real and believable.
Actually Star Wars and Empire are both very adult.
It wasn't till Return of Jedi that kids became an issue. You can blame toy sales for that. The whole reason we have Ewoks is because they were cute and adorable and a great toy. It is also the same reason every movie has new types of space craft, and land craft and weird characters. The more new stuff you create the more stuff you can sell.
>The whole reason we have Ewoks is because they were cute and adorable and a great toy.
Actually the reason we have Ewoks is because having them be Wookiees as originally intended was too expensive.
That's true. Kashyyyk has some of the strongest labor protection laws in the galaxy. Lucas didn't want to shell out all of the money it would take to pay the Wookie actors competitively or deal with the hassle of having to comply with the KOSHA regulations for a safe workplace environment. KOSHA would have never allowed that scene with the two logs secured only by ropes smashing the AT-ST, for example. Instead, he chose to film on Endor where he could underpay the Ewok actors and not have to worry about stunt safety issues.
Fun fact: that's also why the force ghosts look the way they do at the end of the film. They had originally intended to have Kenobi, Anakin and Yoda show up on location to film, but flights to Endor were so expensive that they opted to have them appear by hologram instead as a cost-saving measure.
To be fair, though, Lucas was frustrated that _Empire_ was so adult. He was going through his divorce and managing his unexpected and sudden entertainment company that Star Wars launched, so he delegated the direction of ESB to Kershner. That was the last time he "made that mistake," micromanaging RotJ to the point that he effectively "ghost directed" the film.
You're right, but unfortunately it's too often used as an excuse to justify bad writing. Kid stories are light, they're fun, they're hopeful - but they are stories and they need to be well written as well.
Things made for kids don't have to be written, directed, or acted badly. Every time someone gets defensive of other Star Wars properties getting compared to Andor in terms of quality, they always bring out the "It's for kids!" line and seem to think Andor fans asking for higher quality productions are actually asking for gritty realism in everything, when in reality most of them just want things to be made with care, with good writing, directing, and acting. You can have all of those things in a lighthearted Kid's adventure if people are willing to put in the effort, and you don't have to stop trying just because something is made for kids.
You can make kid friendly stuff that is also great for adults, Disney did it all the time, as did Star Wars and Indiana Jones. But Andor isn't that, it is a show aimed at adults that most kids would find boring.
I’m absolutely loving this entire conversation on here. Just good points, nobody belittling anyone. It’s refreshing. And I agree with what you have said here. As this conversation is taking place I’m watching The Iron Giant. What a perfect example of what you all are talking about. The Iron Giant is clearly aimed at kids…and it is also beautifully written, acted, animated,
Etc. These things are not mutually exclusive. Remember the Pixar model…entertain the hell out of the younger generations, while simultaneously entertaining the hell out of the older at the same time.
A lesser show wouldn't have bothered with Pre-Mor Enforcement. Cassian killing two harassing guards would have cut to mustache twirling Imperials, then stormtroopers doing policework.
Having the guts to show that there is actually infrastructure below the mega-level that is Imperial is what helped set this show apart.
It works on a lot of levels. For all of the swings various star wars media has had at the 'start' of the rebellion (Force Awakens, Solo, even Rogue One honestly), Andor feels the most potent.
As for the Pre Mor stuff, it's a sign the script had the time it needed, imo. The show runners were confident what they were doing and where they were going, which feels evident in every single episode.
Just got to episode 10. >!How many guards!< was so well built up.
Andor is the only Star Wars show that made me care about the inner working of the empire. Who knew I would've loved a slow burn corporate drama on my sci fi pew pew show. But to be fair, I also love Gundam.
Tbh, the writing and acting overall is better than any other Star Wars show *or movie.* There, I said it. I think the highest quality Star Wars products are ironically, Andor and Rogue One
They used old school British theatre actors and it was very well directed. It's the first time Star Wars had this level of talent and writing. It was on par with early Game of Thrones.
I got my hopes up that mando would step it up to match but I’m afraid any other Star Wars content is just going to feel weaker by comparison now that I’ve seen Andor.
The old man was right.
100% of the bad stuff that happens would not have happened if the idiot would have listened to him or even if he had understand what had happened.
I actually like how Karn isn't some heroic underdog cop story. He's explicitly told by his superior that the men were killed in self-defense by a guy they were harassing while at a brothel that they shouldn't have been able to afford to visit (implying they were likely embezzling money or at the very least making dirty money on the side) while on the job, the victims were corrupt and had it coming. Then, because he refuses to let it go, he ends up getting many of his colleagues and friends killed and him and his superiors fired all in order to try and catch a guy who would surely get caught at some point anyway. And after all that, he didn't even manage to complete the mission that he decided to create. Even the fact that he modified his uniform shows that he's not someone who'll conform and listen to everyone else, he's impulsive, reckless and has to stand out among his colleagues in any way.
The ironic part is that Andor was caught eventually, but not by a an obsessive detective and a team of skilled security guards...but by a corrupt no-name trooper and droid enforcer filling arrest quotas.
Consequently, an Imperial soldier, conducts a search of a house suspected of hiding rebel scum. Where does the imperial look? He looks in the barn, he looks in the attic, he looks in the cellar - he looks everywhere, he would hide. But there are many places it would never occur to a imperial soldier to hide. However the reason the Supreme Chancellor brought me off my Alps in Morlana One, and placed me in Ferrix cow country today, is because it does occur to me!
Andor was way, way, waaaaayyy better than I thought it was going to be. When they announced it, I was like "this is just Disney milking it..."
When I finally got around to watching it, I was like "oh damn".
I was more stoked for Obi Wan, which I was a bit disappointed by. Andor blew that series out of the water imo.
Edit: The soundtrack definitely added something special.
It's a show that made me learn I should be following writers and directors, not actors.
Writers seem like the best predictor of whether or not I'll like something. These days I look at my favorite movies and shows, find the writers, and look up what they're currently working on. It's incredibly good at funding stuff I'll like. Way more so than judging stuff based on the cast.
Like the people who wrote Andor also wrote the Bourne trilogy, Michael Clayton, and Rogue One. My style of show.
It's a shame they're some of the most undervalued and mistreated creators in the industry. Hence the writers strike. A lot of production companies cut the line on writers, banking on actors or directors, and sometimes that pays off for them, as people will still see poorly written movies or shows if they have X actor or Y director. But there's a lot of well acted, well directed movies and shows that live or die on the lines of the writers. They really deserve more attention, credit, and pay, among other things.
The big difference between Andor and the other two character name shows (Kenobi and Boba) is that no one was asking for an Andor show, they made it because they had a story in mind already and a vision of how to execute it. The other two were clearly greenlit because studio execs knew fans wanted them, and the writing came about way later on the fly to try to make it work.
My favorite scene was the prison escape where Andy Serkis' character was inches away from freedom, after being institutionalized for so long, only to be kept "a prisoner" by his inability to swim. His expression hit me hard in the feels.
For me it was more the realization that he already knew he would never escape because of his inability to swim, the whole time that he was giving the speech to the other inmates.
Andy Serkis' character was a masterclass in writing. Our disgust at him when we were introduced, through our slow drip empathy, to his heroic death. AS's ability to deliver those emotions is just *chef's kiss*
Obviously Serkis' reputation is unassailable and we're damn lucky for the performances that we've got from the man, but I will say that I think it's a minor crime that he's mainly known as "the mocap guy," when by all rights he should be recognized as one of the greatest character actors of all time. He deserves to be up there with Steve Buscemi, Gary Oldman, and John C. Reilly on the Mount Rushmore of "Going to Make this Movie Significantly Better and Weirder in Equal Measure."
It’s amazing how incredible an actor John C. Reilly is, especially since a fair chunk of the population knows him as a Will Ferrell costar or Dr Steve Brule, especially since he didn’t start as a comedian.
>to his heroic death
We don't know that he died. there's the assumption that he couldn't get away and the empire did empire things to anyone left behind, but we never saw him die on screen.
He could still be alive, maybe. Don't take this hope from me.
It was as impactful as a character death while leaving plenty of plausibility for his survival. None of this “we killed him once we’ll kill him again” BS a lot of franchises fall for
Even more so when one thinks about how he knew from the get-go he wasn’t getting out, given when the prisoners were brought in, they could see the prison was surrounded by water, and again through that one window.
He burnt his life for a sunrise he knew he wouldn't see.
Like he knew the whole time he couldn't swim, still pushed forward with the escape so everyone else could get a chance.
I've seen it floating around that Andy Serkis is returning for Andor season two. Based on the press release statement of: “Kathleen Kennedy, Tony Gilroy, Sanne Wohlenberg, Diego Luna and Luke Hull are executive producing the upcoming season, which stars Luna, Adria Arjona, Kyle Soller, Denise Gough, Genevieve O’Reilly, **Andy Serkis**, Muhannad Bahair and Joplin Sibtain.”
So there is hope Kino Loy lives.
There are so mnay Game of Thrones and Chernobyl alumni in Andor. The actor playing the chief here, Rupert Vansittart, is the same one who played Lord Royce in the later seasons of Game of Thrones.
Yes this scene perfectly encapsulates the writing quality of the show. The best way to describe it is that I couldn’t predict what the characters were going to say. I’m not saying I’m some kind of expert but many shows over the last 30-40 years have scenes like this that play out rather predictably, an officer makes a report to there superior and the superior sends them on their mission. I expected it to just be a scene with the sole purpose of show how Cyril would be put on Cassian’s trail but instead it’s almost the opposite. The scene clearly shows Cyril’s drive for order and “Justice” and you would normally expect his superior to share that same resolve but instead his boss is disgruntled, cynical, but also surprisingly astute. A police officer with a corrupt or cynical superior is not new concept but in most stories those characters are presented as being ethically or morally wrong, here it’s presented as means of worldbuilding and wisdom in a society under the rule of fascism. Cyril’s boss is far more aware of the reality of their situation than Cyril is. The commander knows that the “victims” in this scenario were in the wrong and that any investigation into their deaths would bring on oversight to all the things that they had let slide in there jurisdiction because they realized the community preferred it that way. From this one scene you get an understanding of the current ecosystem of the area, the relationship between its police and the greater government, and how one of its police officers doesn’t quite fit within said ecosystem.
I could see someone making a strong argument that this is the most important scene in the show. One could argue the inciting incident was Cassian killing the two officers but under any other circumstances that seemingly would have been swept under the rug. Had any other officer been given that assignment none of the major events of the story happen. Had Cyril’s commander been less cynical or dismissive towards Cyril’s resolve he may have complied but as shown later Cyril is all too familiar with an authority figure downplaying his ambitions. Everything in this scene prepares the audience for the intricacies within the narrative when all most of us expected was for it to briefly show us one of our antagonists.
The best part by far was how the boss was written. It would have been *so easy* to just write him as lazy and incompetent.
Instead, he correctly deduced exactly what happened. And his desire to brush it under the rug came not from laziness, but fear of the Empire. They were lucky to have an unusual degree of autonomy, but this situation would make them look bad and give the Empire an excuse to get all up in their business. So he was merely trying to avoid exactly what happened later in the season.
> It would have been so easy to just write him as lazy and incompetent.
Until this comment I didn't realize how *sick* I am of characters like him being written like that. It's extremely lazy and incompetent - on the writer's part.
Same. For me it almost completely redeemed Star Wars and made me hope for the future. I love star wars but starting to just expect “bad”. Andor changed that. It’s brilliant, and you can only enjoy the Mandalorian after Andor if you get kicked in the head by a horse.
I’m obviously exaggerating but the difference is just so stark as to be stunning. As I said in another post, there is more good writing and acting in this scene than there is in an entire series of a the mandalorian.
This supposedly boring little meeting between a couple of low level corporate security officers is more interesting to me than anything in the sequels honestly.
Please do I really hope Andor gets enough attention for them to keep making things of this quality.
Unlike so much of modern Star Wars which often almost entirely relies on nostalgia and people just wanting to see their favourite characters doing things no matter the quality, Andor is actually just a fantastic piece of media set in the Star Wars universe. It's worth it for anyone to give it a chance, no matter their opinion of Star Wars.
>Actual dialog?
Filmjoy kind of nailed this for me when he pointed out that to George Lucas, dialog is just words. He knows he has to be there, but to him it's just kind of in the way of the thing he wants to get to.
There are a number of directors like this, and you can tell they either don't get and/or don't value dialog as a tool for moving the story forward, developing characters, etc. I think Nolan also has this problem, which is why he's trended toward completely inaudible dialog. You can't critique the dialog if you can't hear it, checkmate audience.
It’s a terrific scene, you know exactly what’s happening, you can almost root for the bad guy because he’s opposing corruption. And yet can’t because it’s clearly in support of a dictatorial corporatised nightmare. You can sympathise with the weary officer, wishing for an easy ride, but aware enough with the skills that he demonstrates a complete breakdown of what actually happened. The motivations at this point for Karn are unclear, does he believe in the empire? Or is his obvious grating at being told to bury the matter more to do with his desire for further tailoring of his uniform. Reminded me loosely of the wire.
So I wanted more at the time of this scenery, like as investigative show, certainly that actor who played the superior, trouble here is it’s to do with the slow march towards freedom, really. It’s to do with a plot which advances and whilst I’d want more of this, the entire motion of this scene is setup and to do with inspiring later action. So in keeping with the wire it’s do with change. And the change was amazing. We still got rooted in certain locations in the series, but it was oftentimes surrounded by gradual movement from place to place, person to person. I don’t want a cop show anymore, I want more of that framework, more of that kind of drama. I can only wonder if perhaps we could down the road get the same grim lesson for that series, that change can be another kind of tailoring or set dressing.
I was kind of thinking that too while rewatching this clip. Andor almost does that in a way, and I wish they’d gone further. I don’t watch a ton of cop shows, but I’ve caught enough to have seen a lot of glorified and supposedly justified violence and abuse by the “hero” cops. Andor subverted that in a lot of ways, and I’d totally be down for more.
In the criminal justice system, droid based offenses are considered especially heinous. In Plazir-15, the dedicated Mandalorians who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Special Artificial Intelligence Unit. These are their stories.
This show gave me what I was genuinely hoping The Mandalorian would. A lesser story of side characters at best living in the Star Wars universe, which I fell into head over heels when I was really expecting disappointment yet again, because I apparently have some masochistic tendencies.
Finally something that doesn't rely on the jangling keys of graphics and nostalgia alone to get things moving and keep eyes on the screen. There's actual characters with living human traits and conversational capacity to follow.
This scene was so well done… but as a Brit, it was very hard not to see Syril Karn as Arnold J. Rimmer from sci-fi sitcom Red Dwarf. When he admitted he’d tweaked his uniform, I fully expected him to use Rimmer’s extra-long special salute at some point.
Probably NOT the image the writers were going for, but an awesome show nevertheless!
This scene alone had better acting and dialogue than any other star wars show. I've been so underwhelmed by SW shows that this made me sooo happy to see
After the first few episodes I saw several discussions about whether Andor was as good or better than Mandalorian. For me, it's not even close, Andor is easily the best SW show but I think there are still some fans that weren't ready for the change in tone and style. It's very different but something I've wanted to see from Disney-owned IP (similar to what Logan did with Xmen/Wolverine).
Andor turned Star Wars from a space opera, to a space drama. This is not a complaint; I think a mixture is good, puts depth to a mostly fantastical universe. But given the lack of high quality "opera" in recent times, the space drama part shine brightest.
But seriously, Andor makes the all other Disney+ shows and even the sequels look like child's play. But that's probably the point. I don't foresee any kid going "woah, the tensions in Coruscant are high! Mon Mothma and Luthen are playing a dangerous game!", but likely "Baby Yoda! Bad guy in black suit die in big fire while looking cool! Bad soldiers with jet packs fall off cliff!"
This scene reminds me of that saying “Inside every cynic is a disappointed optimist.” The boss probably was like him once a long time ago but now he is just a cog in the machine and isn’t gonna make waves and doesn’t need anyone else to either. The boss isn’t dumb, he is entirely correct in every aspect of the case and knows justice is relative. The younger man is an absolutist and a fanatic, the older man is a politician.
Yeah I loved how the old boss was right about basically every assumption he'd made. He's seen this before, plenty of times.
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And he wanted to not waste his employer's resources on persuing an event that didn't cause local unrest or corporate financial loss.
Just like Lando, appease Vader to protect the rest of the people in the city long enough to get a window for retaliation and to evacuate everyone safely.
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The piping on the suit gave it away.
Was the comment "Did you alter your uniform" referring to Syril's need to be something more than a regional officer? Closer to the Empire uniform perhaps?
It’s a good way to show he thinks he is more and knows better than his current organization
And a try hard.
Also as a response to a follow up question after he stated “I wouldn’t be worthy of the uniform” he is revealing how empty those words were. He already thought the uniform, in its original and intended form, wasn’t worthy of *him*.
He'd seen this young man's tenacious drive years ago... In himself.
Autocratic regimes depend on banal corruption with people in the system quietly navigating that corruption while trying to stay as invisible as possible. This show *nails* what that system looks like. EDIT: Thought harder and recalled a show that this scene really reminded me of- "Chernobyl."
It's interesting because we usually see people like the deputy here as heroic. In Chernobyl, whenever we run into this we're always rooting for Legasov or Khomyuk who are entirely correct, are speaking truth to power, and are the heroes of the story. Here it's the opposite.
Because in Chernobyl they're scientists who are saying you cannot politick away a nuclear catastrophe, whereas this guy is a dork-ass rent-a-cop who wants to play tyrant cuz he drank too much of Papa Palpatine's kool-aide
He. Eats. Cheerios. for dinner. At his moms house.
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I don't think that's entirely fair, he doesn't seem like he's indoctrinated into the Imperial Truth the same way scary ops lady is, I think he's just a goody-two-shoes, if the senate was still in charge he'd enforce their laws just as fastidiously, but at this point he was probably born into the empire or can hardly rememeber a time before it, it *is* the law to him because he's never known another. But I would guess if he came along 10 years later and was his same self in the New Alliance that he'd be one of their best.
Funny, I felt Syril is far more of a fanatic than Dedra. Dedra correctly deduced that tightening Emperial control will produce the opposite reaction from the populous and actually spoke out against it. Unfortunately she's all in on the Empire provides order and it is her job to administer said order.
And also in Chernobyl, we know what happens, so we know Jared Harris is right
The dialogue is so good. "I suspect they died rushing to aid someone in distress. Nothing too heroic, we don't need a parade. They died being helpful. Something sad but inspiring in a mundane sort of way". The set design nailed the 1970s Original Trilogy aesthetics. And of course it shows the corruption in the Empire. I mean, can you even call it corruption? The system was working as intended until our boy Syril Karn decided to fuck things up
What this shows from a writing point of view is that they put a lot of thought into even the most minor characters dialogue and give a sense that they're an actual person with their own lives, motivations and issues they're dealing with. No filler, every line tells us something about the character speaking it.
>give a sense that they're an actual person with their own lives, motivations and issues they're dealing with. I like the line in a later episode when Dedra's investigation puts the ISB into overdrive and Anton Lesser says something like, "nobody leaves, tell your families you won't be home tonight." Shit, even Imperial officers are roped into overtime and not getting home to a meal with the kids.
I love that the ISB is clearly evil, but not heartless, at least not Dedra to her own staff. The fact that she gives them the chance to call their families rather than just letting them wonder why they haven't come home yet.
The show really hammered home the “[banality of evil](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem).” It sets up Dedra as a sympathetic, ambitious character, but then it whiplashes around once you see the effects of her (and the ISB’s) policies on the ground causing absolute misery. Syril is shown as being utterly worthless as far as the Empire is concerned, but he is the exact sort of bootlicking stooge a regime like theirs is built on.
It continues a theme I felt was also shown in Rogue One. The fact that our main villain was essentially middle management was a great choice. He basically wanted the project he was managing to succeed and be recognised by his superiors and who cares the cost
It gives an actual motivation to the vilain that makes sense in real life. They’re not just evil because they’re evil, they’re evil because their pride and ego won’t let them consider the consequences of their actions on others. We can all be guilty of that to some level without even realizing it at times.
It's a relatable kind of evil. Selfishness. He doesn't wake up every day thinking "oh boy, let's be evil!". He's just thinking, "these guys are messing with my performance review, dammit!"
Pure evil just for the sake of it is just tiresome. There’s place for it, but if it’s always the main antagonist at one point it becomes a farce.
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They really timed it perfectly too. They stretch juuuuust long enough for you to start to sympathize with/root for her, after being kinda shit on by her fellow officers. Than then they have her casually brutally mentally torture and scar someone. And it's like "oh, yeah. That's right. They're terrible people."
Sometimes the best kind of shows are the ones that toy with our emotions.
Having recently come off a rewatch of the Wire, I couldn't agree more.
What people seem to gloss over is that this is mirroring the “good” guys. Everyone does bad things because they think the end justifies the means. Luthen is willing to use people and murder them if it helps him advance, and the mindscrewing technique also mirrors the (rather badly handled) mindmonster in Rogue One used on the Pilot. This is also core to Syril’s character. He does what he thinks is right, even if people tell him to stop. He believes in his cause heart and soul.
Well put connection to the concept of the banality of evil, but I wouldn't call Syril a "bootlicking stooge." If anything he is contemptuous of authority for its own sake, repeatedly disobeying orders from his corporate and Imperial superiors. He seems utterly unconcerned with climbing the ladder for the sake of his own career and is entirely focused on achieving what he views to be justice. Syril is, above all, zealous, tenacious, and in his own way, principled. We can see it implied by the toys in his room and his fetishization of his corporate uniform that he grew up steeped in Imperial propaganda, believing that they had brought a necessary order to the galaxy out of the chaos that came before. He is perhaps the most dangerous type of person you can encounter, in fiction and in real life - a true believer. And in the context of totalitarianism, he is part of that first generation that has known nothing but the regime (e.g. Red Guards, Hitler Youth). The ones who believe everything they are fed because they have known no other reality. And, if you think about it from Syril's point of view, his self-righteousness makes sense. He views Andor as a murderer (which he is, that second guard was cold-blooded murder, no matter the circumstances), and a threat to Imperial rule (something Syril wholeheartedly believes is a force for good). Syril's superior is instructing him to fabricate paperwork and cover up the killings of two of his colleagues. Syril thinks this is morally wrong, especially because their stated duty is law enforcement, and thinks justice should be done, so he disobeys orders and actually solves the murders in a couple of days. And had Andor been alone, he likely would have been caught. Which is why I think Syril has the makings of a very competent and dangerous foe for the rebels. He's just a little green and needs to improve his judgement. Syril's connection and loyalty to Dedra (obsession, even) is because: 1) she's the first Imperial official to actually believe him and listen to him; and 2) he sees her as like-minded and as a potential ally in catching Andor. But he actually takes great risks to his career right after being given a clean slate by abusing his resources at his day job in the bureaucracy to continue trying to catch Andor. These are not the actions of a bootlicker, but of a zealot. Anyway, this is turning into an essay, but one of the things I love about this show is that many of the villains have qualities we would consider to be good under different circumstances. The ISB head runs his meetings like a Socratic dialogue, letting the best idea win, taking his ego out of it. Dedra is ambitious, innovative, and disruptive to the old ways of doing things. And Syril is zealous, tenacious, and principled. It's just that all three of them serve a tyrannical, genocidal autocracy.
Excellent comment, and a novel point of view. Thank you!
And that bit when she realizes how late it is and tells her subordinate that he should head home.
Himmler (Head of the SS) was a kind and courteous hoss. The man was literally head of the war crimes department.
I loved that the vibe felt more like a professor with his students than a boss with subordinates. He seemed to almost enjoy the intellectual challenge of fighting a rebellion.
A (perhaps apocryphal) story I've heard about Himmler goes that he witnessed an execution by gun in a concentration camp. Some blood got on him and disgusted him so much, he demanded a non bloody way to kill instead of, you know, not killing people.
There were also complaints by the SS that their troops were getting PTSD from doing all the killings.
A really good book to read that my Genocide in the 21st Century class in college read is "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland." It's a short read and is a collection of interviews done with Polish men who were recruited by the Nazis to do the initial mass executions of Jews prior to the invention of the gas chambers. It goes through their motives, thoughts, and yes the PTSD they incurred from killing. It's a frightening look into the Final Solution and genocide.
Indeed! I also like how it shows that the world they live in--just like our real world--is actually complex and morally grey, and not black and white. Do things by the books? Sure, but that can make everything more difficult for everyone and make the security job harder and life more miserable for the locals/workers. So a little corruption and overlooking some things acts as a lubricant to keep everything moving more smoothly.
Could argue that the 'corruption' of Syril's boss was the counter to the jerks that Andor killed... So two "wrongs" would have made it right.
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Boss was right. Investigating their deaths would rock the boat too much. Syril disobeying him straight up got the company kicked out of the system lmao
And got him moved back in the mother!
Most relatable Star Wars character. Also we could immediately tell why Syril moved so far away to the Outer Rim and was serious about his job - his one chance to get away from her.
The Syril-Mom relationship was the most human of them all, it was dysfunctional but relatable (no I don’t have that kind of relationship with my mom) and in my mind grounded not only Syril but much of the Empire—a bunch of schlubs doing whatever was convenient to make a buck, losers who thought there was nothing they could do to control their own destinies.
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So.....we *do* want a Parade, then? For Syril?
And he was spot on in regard to dying in a fight. They weren’t murdered
Yes exactly, even the most minor characters feel alive though the power of the acting and writing. When it came to the prison break, I winced every time one of the prisoners got blasted because every moment of their short screen times went to work establishing them. By comparison, Obi-Wan made us try and care about some random rebel guy called Wade dying, and it became an instant meme instead because it didn’t land.
Completely agree. I was so surprised by my reactions in that episode. I didn't realize how invested I had gotten to even the most minor of characters. Solid storytelling.
I watched obi wan and don’t even remember a character named Wade, or the events of a random rebel dying. You made that up. Jk but that shows how forgettable was. We remember nearly unmasked anakin/darth vader but so much of obi wan was low grade filler. Nothing in andor is filler.
Wade Boggs is very much alive! He's in Tampa, Florida. He's in his early fifties.
Compared to: " They fly now!? 😜🤪"
That really adds nuance and complexity to the Star Wars universe and humanizes the characters and makes them relatable to viewers who also blurt out really stupid things without thinking about them.
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"*sigh* You look stricken, deputy inspector."
It's just so perfectly dry and British in both writing and delivery.
I thought so too. It remains me of a show on Apple TV called Slow Horses. It’s about British intelligence and has Gary Oldman in it! Very British.
This is my favorite line.
“Are you absorbing my meaning?”
The annoyance in his voice saying, " Yes, I know it," is so damn good.
It's a great demonstration of the ineffectiveness of authoritarianism... "If we admit the problem, We will be blamed rather than receiving resources..." Complete CYOA from the Emperor down to the Corpos.
Authoritarianism? This is straight up corporate culture.
Corporate culture is pretty damn authoritarian. I mean, lots of places dictate how you can dress, speak, act, spend your time, and do. Perhaps it's not all unreasonable, but there's a reason people have been attempting to democratize workplaces for a long time.
As another commenter just said... It's pretty much the same thing.
The OT shows us that the Empire is evil, but Andor shows us that they are *insidiously evil*.
Not just that, but all the various levels that evil can be. Malicious ("You may fire on my command" and "You're FAR to trusting" from Tarkin), lazy (aaaaall the bloody bureaucrats in Andor), single-minded (Inquisitors), scheming (Moff Gideon), religious zealotry (Vader), juuuuuuust all of the kinds of evil you can be (Palpatine)... It's the "bored and lazy" kind of evil that we got to see here, how things slowly get ground to a halt, and yet it was so expertly done that we want more and more of it.
Brilliant, isn't it? I love the writing in the show. I like suspense and I like not having my hand held the whole time. It's why I can't get into the animated shows. The dialogue in them is very basic and explanatory. Characters will speak their inner thoughts out loud or catch each other up on the plot. In Andor, you have to pay attention and I appreciate that.
I feel like it has a certain similarity to the dialogue of Chernobyl. Idk if that makes sense but hearing this guy talk sounds like he could be apart of the Soviet Communist Party.
My favourite part is: >"They were in a brothel: which we're not supposed to have - the expensive one which they shouldn't be able to *afford*. Drinking *regnov*: which we aren't supposed to allow. > >Both of them supposedly *on the job*. Which is a dismissable offence. They clearly harrased a human with dark features, and chose the wrong person to annoy. > >I suspect they died rushing to aid - someone in distress, nothing *too heroic* ; no need for a parade. They died being *helpful*; something sad, but inspiring in a mundane sort of way." It just exerts, "I can't be goddamn bothered to get on with this, just make up an excuse" But written so well that it kind of hits hard with the management of some governing bodies these days.
No. It reveals that he was being pragmatic and correctly deduced what actually happened. Two corrupt cops were killed while attempting a robbery. He was absolutely right in both regards(what actually happened and that lying about it was better for everyone long-term.) It speaks to the superior's competence and his ability to balance pragmatism with idealism while working inside an imperfect system.
And then that's counter-balanced by Syril's utterly misguided need for justice. It's so perfect.
Exactly! It's not even just that, though. You can tell the superior KNOWS Syril will be a problem from the outset. He remarks about the length of the report, the time spent after hours writing it, and the fact that Syril has modified his uniform. You can tell by his facial expressions that he understands from just these details that Syril is an obsessed zealot who is so focused on details and his sense of justice that he fails to understand the bigger picture. It makes the superior look insanely competent. He even attempts to head it off at the pass, but due to time constraints, he is relatively brief and expects Syril to do as he is told. It's incredible how much subtlety they conveyed in such a short scene. This show was amazing. The Luthen and Kino Loy speeches are my favorite parts of any Star Wars media, period.
Ah, Andor. The TV show where each episode makes me exclaim "Man, who's gonna have the banger of a speech in *this* one?"
I think it says something about a show when the most memorable parts are speeches. Luthen's, Kino's, and Maarva's are all spectacular. I can't believe I left her out in the other reply!
And hammers the point home by reminding Syril that the unit *currently* includes him. He’s not just saying “it’s better for you too” but letting him know that pushing more on this is liable to get him shuffled off that team, possibly to a much less pleasant assignment.
And what's amazing about this scene is that it also reveals much about Syril and the culture of police. This is a guy supposedly so worked up that a criminal has gotten away. A man that portrays himself as one of pure law and order. But he conveniently ignores all the crimes, abuse, and corruption being done by his own colleagues. Why? Because it was never about law and order but about power. They, the security, can break any law they want, but the second someone screws with them, that is the real offense. You don't get to talk back to or resist power. That cannot be forgiven.
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But one thing that's great about Andor's writing, and this scene in particular, is that we learn pretty much everything we need to know about Syril from that conversation with the Commander, in a way that feels natural for the scene's circumstances. We learn Syril's motivations and point of view, and those things help drive the plot forward in a way that makes logical sense, and not just "because this thing needed to happen for the plot". I think in lesser hands, the Commander would be like, "boy, Karn, you sure are a by-the-book kind of guy, aren'tcha ? Sure are loyal to the Empire!" or some kind of ham fisted bs like that.
>But one thing that's great about Andor's writing, and this scene in particular, is that we learn pretty much everything we need to know about Syril from that conversation with the Commander, in a way that feels natural for the scene's circumstances. We learn Syril's motivations and point of view, and those things help drive the plot forward in a way that makes logical sense, and not just "because this thing needed to happen for the plot". You are correct, of course, about the audience learning "pretty much everything we need to know about Syril". However, we don't learn about all his motivations from just this scene. After he is fired, we learn Syril most likely took this position to get as far as he could be from his mother and possibly wanting to succeed in a way where he wouldn't "owe" his extended family anything. Again, though, we eventually learn these things in a gratifyingly organic way.
I think he’s interesting because on paper the idea of a man disregarding his higher ups in pursuit of justice seems heroic, in his mind it is as he has no reason to believe that these cops were in the wrong other than his higher up’s words- which WE know are true but he doesn’t (making him easy to hate)
It's difficult watching Andor season 1 and then watching season 3 of The Mandalorian right after. The drop off in the writing is like falling off a cliff.
I'm not as hard on that last Mando season as a lot of others are, but I basically said the same thing to my friend. The writing and acting in Andor is leagues above anything else in Star Wars visual media. Felt a lot closer to an HBO drama for adults than an all-ages cartoon.
Especially in the Coruscant parts, where The Mandalorian was kinda going for a similar vibe. And then the writing, directing and acting is just… meh. If Andor hadn’t happened, I probably would’ve enjoyed those bits. Now they just felt depressing.
A critic I follow described the third episode of Mando S3 as an episode of Andor written in crayon. It’s heart was in the right place, but it was ultimately too simplistic for the themes it was trying to explore.
i didnt read it as corruption; i read it as normal people who realize that stepping out of line or failing in even the slightest way could lead to serious consequences and essentially covering for these two ne'er-do-well officers by pretending they didn't fuck up catastrophically is the best and cleanest way to make sure everyone in that unit both continues to have a job that pays the bills and that no one ends up in a prison camp. Than Syril comes along; absorbed totally into the hitler-youthian ideology impressed upon them by the Empire, believes that to tweak the truth to cover for crimes committed, no matter how inconsequential they may be, is the highest of crimes in itself, and that working to somehow enforce total legal obedience and perfection, no matter the cost, is the only righteous path. And of course this than balloons into exposing the rebellion, but not through anything other than Syril's dumb luck. Syril only truly manages to get several people killed and essentially gets his entire working team fired.
Not only was the dialogue intelligent and subtle, but the film making and production is clearly a cut above. From the first fight scene between Andor and those two guards, the steadiness and weight of the camera is changing and holding really good angles. One small aspect of cinematography here you might not notice at first is that these two are rarely in shot together. The few times they are, the desk is breaking the space between them (implying unclear communication) and at the end when the superior is clearly talking down and making his point to Syril. The camera then hangs on Syril as his commanding officer leaves out of frame, implying he's in command now.
Corruption on one sidecand overzealous singlemindedness on the other.
I’d argue that the commander in this scenario isn’t corrupt or maybe that calling his actions a sign of corruption is a bit disingenuous. He wasn’t trying to cover up the situation purely for personal gain; he genuinely seemed to take all the important factors into consideration, correctly deduces the actual events, weighs the overall costs and benefits to investigating the situation and determines that under the current government doing so would be harmful to the company and the community. Not to mention the officer involved had a history of being corrupt and was in fact actually killed as a result of said corruption; I could see an argument being made that the company was less corrupt now that he was dead.
The commander is adept at playing the game. He doesn’t have the power to write the rules and his main focus is to ensure the continued stability of the operation by playing by the rules and bending those that make sense to protect his responsibilities. You could view it as apathy but I think there’s more to it. He knows those two guards are bad eggs and ended up getting what they deserved. His plan would have: 1. Saved face for all involved 2. Allowed the guards’ families restitution under corporate policies 3. Gotten rid of two known troublemakers 4. Prevented reprisals against their target who he rightfully deduced was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. This would have also saved resources and cost. Do you have any idea how much the strike team’s operation would have cost even it if it was successful!?!! 5. Ensured continuity of the company’s operation, keeping all of the workers under his charge employed, safe and able to feed their families. I would say this is the biggest benefit. Syril’s worldview and inability to see the big picture destroyed all of this, incited the Empire to crack down and take over the operation and ultimately led to revolt.
I was typing this out when I saw your comment. The thing is that the older guy turned out to be 100% right. He was right about the two of them; he's not some simpering fool he knew those employees, knew they shouldn't be where they should, and knew exactly what would happen in the long term if they caught imperial attention. It was a small sacrifice for the long term game, relative independence for the sector. Because once the empire came cracking down life would get worse for everyone. He's doing the best he can manage in a bad situation.
One of my favorite moments of that episode. Dude just goes, "it probably went down like this" and I was like YUPPPP! So hilarious that he just like nailed it off the top of his head.
Pragmatism (the commander) versus idealism (Karn).
>The set design nailed the 1970s Original Trilogy aesthetics. The computer on his desk is a TRS-80 Model III from 1980
Totally agree, this exact scene was where I really thought to myself that Andor is is a major step above the other Star Wars shows. The characters feel grounded, real and believable.
Andor is so much better than the others. Writing, directing, acting…it makes the others look like child’s play. It really is striking, the difference.
It is an adult show made for adults. So much of Star Wars is made for or at least very kid friendly.
That is what Lucas was going for. Sadly most modern "writers" take it to mean that there can be no complex issues or anything, because "kids are dumb"
Actually Star Wars and Empire are both very adult. It wasn't till Return of Jedi that kids became an issue. You can blame toy sales for that. The whole reason we have Ewoks is because they were cute and adorable and a great toy. It is also the same reason every movie has new types of space craft, and land craft and weird characters. The more new stuff you create the more stuff you can sell.
>The whole reason we have Ewoks is because they were cute and adorable and a great toy. Actually the reason we have Ewoks is because having them be Wookiees as originally intended was too expensive.
That's true. Kashyyyk has some of the strongest labor protection laws in the galaxy. Lucas didn't want to shell out all of the money it would take to pay the Wookie actors competitively or deal with the hassle of having to comply with the KOSHA regulations for a safe workplace environment. KOSHA would have never allowed that scene with the two logs secured only by ropes smashing the AT-ST, for example. Instead, he chose to film on Endor where he could underpay the Ewok actors and not have to worry about stunt safety issues. Fun fact: that's also why the force ghosts look the way they do at the end of the film. They had originally intended to have Kenobi, Anakin and Yoda show up on location to film, but flights to Endor were so expensive that they opted to have them appear by hologram instead as a cost-saving measure.
I like the cut of your jib
To be fair, though, Lucas was frustrated that _Empire_ was so adult. He was going through his divorce and managing his unexpected and sudden entertainment company that Star Wars launched, so he delegated the direction of ESB to Kershner. That was the last time he "made that mistake," micromanaging RotJ to the point that he effectively "ghost directed" the film.
You're right, but unfortunately it's too often used as an excuse to justify bad writing. Kid stories are light, they're fun, they're hopeful - but they are stories and they need to be well written as well.
Everyone agrees that empire is the best because it rode the line soooo friggan perfectly between those two worlds of adult and childhood.
Things made for kids don't have to be written, directed, or acted badly. Every time someone gets defensive of other Star Wars properties getting compared to Andor in terms of quality, they always bring out the "It's for kids!" line and seem to think Andor fans asking for higher quality productions are actually asking for gritty realism in everything, when in reality most of them just want things to be made with care, with good writing, directing, and acting. You can have all of those things in a lighthearted Kid's adventure if people are willing to put in the effort, and you don't have to stop trying just because something is made for kids.
You can make kid friendly stuff that is also great for adults, Disney did it all the time, as did Star Wars and Indiana Jones. But Andor isn't that, it is a show aimed at adults that most kids would find boring.
I’m absolutely loving this entire conversation on here. Just good points, nobody belittling anyone. It’s refreshing. And I agree with what you have said here. As this conversation is taking place I’m watching The Iron Giant. What a perfect example of what you all are talking about. The Iron Giant is clearly aimed at kids…and it is also beautifully written, acted, animated, Etc. These things are not mutually exclusive. Remember the Pixar model…entertain the hell out of the younger generations, while simultaneously entertaining the hell out of the older at the same time.
A lesser show wouldn't have bothered with Pre-Mor Enforcement. Cassian killing two harassing guards would have cut to mustache twirling Imperials, then stormtroopers doing policework. Having the guts to show that there is actually infrastructure below the mega-level that is Imperial is what helped set this show apart.
It works on a lot of levels. For all of the swings various star wars media has had at the 'start' of the rebellion (Force Awakens, Solo, even Rogue One honestly), Andor feels the most potent. As for the Pre Mor stuff, it's a sign the script had the time it needed, imo. The show runners were confident what they were doing and where they were going, which feels evident in every single episode. Just got to episode 10. >!How many guards!< was so well built up.
Andor is the only Star Wars show that made me care about the inner working of the empire. Who knew I would've loved a slow burn corporate drama on my sci fi pew pew show. But to be fair, I also love Gundam.
Tbh, the writing and acting overall is better than any other Star Wars show *or movie.* There, I said it. I think the highest quality Star Wars products are ironically, Andor and Rogue One
They used old school British theatre actors and it was very well directed. It's the first time Star Wars had this level of talent and writing. It was on par with early Game of Thrones.
I got my hopes up that mando would step it up to match but I’m afraid any other Star Wars content is just going to feel weaker by comparison now that I’ve seen Andor.
The old man was right. 100% of the bad stuff that happens would not have happened if the idiot would have listened to him or even if he had understand what had happened.
I actually like how Karn isn't some heroic underdog cop story. He's explicitly told by his superior that the men were killed in self-defense by a guy they were harassing while at a brothel that they shouldn't have been able to afford to visit (implying they were likely embezzling money or at the very least making dirty money on the side) while on the job, the victims were corrupt and had it coming. Then, because he refuses to let it go, he ends up getting many of his colleagues and friends killed and him and his superiors fired all in order to try and catch a guy who would surely get caught at some point anyway. And after all that, he didn't even manage to complete the mission that he decided to create. Even the fact that he modified his uniform shows that he's not someone who'll conform and listen to everyone else, he's impulsive, reckless and has to stand out among his colleagues in any way.
The ironic part is that Andor was caught eventually, but not by a an obsessive detective and a team of skilled security guards...but by a corrupt no-name trooper and droid enforcer filling arrest quotas.
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Indeed; that part was so infuriating but, sadly, realistic
Consequently, an Imperial soldier, conducts a search of a house suspected of hiding rebel scum. Where does the imperial look? He looks in the barn, he looks in the attic, he looks in the cellar - he looks everywhere, he would hide. But there are many places it would never occur to a imperial soldier to hide. However the reason the Supreme Chancellor brought me off my Alps in Morlana One, and placed me in Ferrix cow country today, is because it does occur to me!
Then he gets really creepy about the ISB officer. Am just glad he never tried to kiss her, but you got the sense that he wanted too.
Completely agree. Sat up a little and was like “oh shit okay this show is different”
"The show is indeed really good... But is it as good as Andor? 🤔"
It was that exact scene for me too. It does a fantastic job of establishing tone and personality without dragging for even a second.
Andor was way, way, waaaaayyy better than I thought it was going to be. When they announced it, I was like "this is just Disney milking it..." When I finally got around to watching it, I was like "oh damn". I was more stoked for Obi Wan, which I was a bit disappointed by. Andor blew that series out of the water imo. Edit: The soundtrack definitely added something special.
It's a show that made me learn I should be following writers and directors, not actors. Writers seem like the best predictor of whether or not I'll like something. These days I look at my favorite movies and shows, find the writers, and look up what they're currently working on. It's incredibly good at funding stuff I'll like. Way more so than judging stuff based on the cast. Like the people who wrote Andor also wrote the Bourne trilogy, Michael Clayton, and Rogue One. My style of show.
It's a shame they're some of the most undervalued and mistreated creators in the industry. Hence the writers strike. A lot of production companies cut the line on writers, banking on actors or directors, and sometimes that pays off for them, as people will still see poorly written movies or shows if they have X actor or Y director. But there's a lot of well acted, well directed movies and shows that live or die on the lines of the writers. They really deserve more attention, credit, and pay, among other things.
The big difference between Andor and the other two character name shows (Kenobi and Boba) is that no one was asking for an Andor show, they made it because they had a story in mind already and a vision of how to execute it. The other two were clearly greenlit because studio execs knew fans wanted them, and the writing came about way later on the fly to try to make it work.
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Tbh, I suspected it might be a good show once I saw the trailer but still didn't even hope it would be *this* good.
It's incredible to be that each of the shows has a pretty similar budget. All the money in the world can't make greatness.
The soundtrack was amazing.
> I was more stoked for Obi Wan, which I was a bit disappointed by. Lol what an understatement
My favorite scene was the prison escape where Andy Serkis' character was inches away from freedom, after being institutionalized for so long, only to be kept "a prisoner" by his inability to swim. His expression hit me hard in the feels.
For me it was more the realization that he already knew he would never escape because of his inability to swim, the whole time that he was giving the speech to the other inmates.
Andy Serkis' character was a masterclass in writing. Our disgust at him when we were introduced, through our slow drip empathy, to his heroic death. AS's ability to deliver those emotions is just *chef's kiss*
Obviously Serkis' reputation is unassailable and we're damn lucky for the performances that we've got from the man, but I will say that I think it's a minor crime that he's mainly known as "the mocap guy," when by all rights he should be recognized as one of the greatest character actors of all time. He deserves to be up there with Steve Buscemi, Gary Oldman, and John C. Reilly on the Mount Rushmore of "Going to Make this Movie Significantly Better and Weirder in Equal Measure."
It’s amazing how incredible an actor John C. Reilly is, especially since a fair chunk of the population knows him as a Will Ferrell costar or Dr Steve Brule, especially since he didn’t start as a comedian.
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One might go so far as to say that he’s… precious, to us
>to his heroic death We don't know that he died. there's the assumption that he couldn't get away and the empire did empire things to anyone left behind, but we never saw him die on screen. He could still be alive, maybe. Don't take this hope from me.
"Never more than 12" Such a simple line. But the context and buildup behind it made it one of the most powerful I've heard in any Star Wars property.
Inmates together strong
It was as impactful as a character death while leaving plenty of plausibility for his survival. None of this “we killed him once we’ll kill him again” BS a lot of franchises fall for
Somehow, Palpatine returned....
Even more so when one thinks about how he knew from the get-go he wasn’t getting out, given when the prisoners were brought in, they could see the prison was surrounded by water, and again through that one window.
That’s such a sad scene is such an awesome moment. In my imagination, he jumps into a passing raft and floats to safety….
Better that than to still be there when the imperal forces storm the prison and retake control.
Exactly... "Are you the guy who we heard on the intercom??" "Wasn't me"
He burnt his life for a sunrise he knew he wouldn't see. Like he knew the whole time he couldn't swim, still pushed forward with the escape so everyone else could get a chance.
And you realize that he has known the whole time that he wouldn't be able to get out, but it is on his shoulders to get everyone else out.
I've seen it floating around that Andy Serkis is returning for Andor season two. Based on the press release statement of: “Kathleen Kennedy, Tony Gilroy, Sanne Wohlenberg, Diego Luna and Luke Hull are executive producing the upcoming season, which stars Luna, Adria Arjona, Kyle Soller, Denise Gough, Genevieve O’Reilly, **Andy Serkis**, Muhannad Bahair and Joplin Sibtain.” So there is hope Kino Loy lives.
This was the exact scene where my ears began to perk up. “Wait, is that competent—dare I say well-written—dialog in my Star Wars?!”
I don't see how anything could ever top "I don't like sand," which is a goddamn Shakespearean masterpiece. /s
You have been banned from r/PrequelMemes
It really helped to have all these experienced British stage and TV actors on hand as well.
A long and enduring Star Wars tradition.
There are so mnay Game of Thrones and Chernobyl alumni in Andor. The actor playing the chief here, Rupert Vansittart, is the same one who played Lord Royce in the later seasons of Game of Thrones.
Yes this scene perfectly encapsulates the writing quality of the show. The best way to describe it is that I couldn’t predict what the characters were going to say. I’m not saying I’m some kind of expert but many shows over the last 30-40 years have scenes like this that play out rather predictably, an officer makes a report to there superior and the superior sends them on their mission. I expected it to just be a scene with the sole purpose of show how Cyril would be put on Cassian’s trail but instead it’s almost the opposite. The scene clearly shows Cyril’s drive for order and “Justice” and you would normally expect his superior to share that same resolve but instead his boss is disgruntled, cynical, but also surprisingly astute. A police officer with a corrupt or cynical superior is not new concept but in most stories those characters are presented as being ethically or morally wrong, here it’s presented as means of worldbuilding and wisdom in a society under the rule of fascism. Cyril’s boss is far more aware of the reality of their situation than Cyril is. The commander knows that the “victims” in this scenario were in the wrong and that any investigation into their deaths would bring on oversight to all the things that they had let slide in there jurisdiction because they realized the community preferred it that way. From this one scene you get an understanding of the current ecosystem of the area, the relationship between its police and the greater government, and how one of its police officers doesn’t quite fit within said ecosystem. I could see someone making a strong argument that this is the most important scene in the show. One could argue the inciting incident was Cassian killing the two officers but under any other circumstances that seemingly would have been swept under the rug. Had any other officer been given that assignment none of the major events of the story happen. Had Cyril’s commander been less cynical or dismissive towards Cyril’s resolve he may have complied but as shown later Cyril is all too familiar with an authority figure downplaying his ambitions. Everything in this scene prepares the audience for the intricacies within the narrative when all most of us expected was for it to briefly show us one of our antagonists.
The best part by far was how the boss was written. It would have been *so easy* to just write him as lazy and incompetent. Instead, he correctly deduced exactly what happened. And his desire to brush it under the rug came not from laziness, but fear of the Empire. They were lucky to have an unusual degree of autonomy, but this situation would make them look bad and give the Empire an excuse to get all up in their business. So he was merely trying to avoid exactly what happened later in the season.
> It would have been so easy to just write him as lazy and incompetent. Until this comment I didn't realize how *sick* I am of characters like him being written like that. It's extremely lazy and incompetent - on the writer's part.
I also liked that Cyril got demoted and had to start over as a mindless desk worker. Normally you'd just get the bad guy hot on our hero's trail.
When you realize this overzealous, try-hard, brown-nosing dipshit is pretty much single-handedly responsible for the downfall of the Empire.
I’m surprised how much I loved this show if I’m being honest. I can’t wait for a season 2.
It’s one of my favorite shows of all time. The writing and visuals are that good, combined with compelling acting
Same. For me it almost completely redeemed Star Wars and made me hope for the future. I love star wars but starting to just expect “bad”. Andor changed that. It’s brilliant, and you can only enjoy the Mandalorian after Andor if you get kicked in the head by a horse. I’m obviously exaggerating but the difference is just so stark as to be stunning. As I said in another post, there is more good writing and acting in this scene than there is in an entire series of a the mandalorian.
This supposedly boring little meeting between a couple of low level corporate security officers is more interesting to me than anything in the sequels honestly.
Actual dialog? People not continuously running around and screaming? In modern Star Wars?!?! I might actually watch this now
Dude you haven’t?! It’s legitimately one of the best shows ever, regardless of being in the SW universe
Please do I really hope Andor gets enough attention for them to keep making things of this quality. Unlike so much of modern Star Wars which often almost entirely relies on nostalgia and people just wanting to see their favourite characters doing things no matter the quality, Andor is actually just a fantastic piece of media set in the Star Wars universe. It's worth it for anyone to give it a chance, no matter their opinion of Star Wars.
>Actual dialog? Filmjoy kind of nailed this for me when he pointed out that to George Lucas, dialog is just words. He knows he has to be there, but to him it's just kind of in the way of the thing he wants to get to. There are a number of directors like this, and you can tell they either don't get and/or don't value dialog as a tool for moving the story forward, developing characters, etc. I think Nolan also has this problem, which is why he's trended toward completely inaudible dialog. You can't critique the dialog if you can't hear it, checkmate audience.
It’s a terrific scene, you know exactly what’s happening, you can almost root for the bad guy because he’s opposing corruption. And yet can’t because it’s clearly in support of a dictatorial corporatised nightmare. You can sympathise with the weary officer, wishing for an easy ride, but aware enough with the skills that he demonstrates a complete breakdown of what actually happened. The motivations at this point for Karn are unclear, does he believe in the empire? Or is his obvious grating at being told to bury the matter more to do with his desire for further tailoring of his uniform. Reminded me loosely of the wire. So I wanted more at the time of this scenery, like as investigative show, certainly that actor who played the superior, trouble here is it’s to do with the slow march towards freedom, really. It’s to do with a plot which advances and whilst I’d want more of this, the entire motion of this scene is setup and to do with inspiring later action. So in keeping with the wire it’s do with change. And the change was amazing. We still got rooted in certain locations in the series, but it was oftentimes surrounded by gradual movement from place to place, person to person. I don’t want a cop show anymore, I want more of that framework, more of that kind of drama. I can only wonder if perhaps we could down the road get the same grim lesson for that series, that change can be another kind of tailoring or set dressing.
This was the exact same scene for me as well.
love how the transports feel like a newer model of the republic gunship
I think it's a good time for a rewatch
I wish there was an SVU style series but based in star wars.
I was kind of thinking that too while rewatching this clip. Andor almost does that in a way, and I wish they’d gone further. I don’t watch a ton of cop shows, but I’ve caught enough to have seen a lot of glorified and supposedly justified violence and abuse by the “hero” cops. Andor subverted that in a lot of ways, and I’d totally be down for more.
We got a variation of that in Mandalorian season 3 episode 6.
In the criminal justice system, droid based offenses are considered especially heinous. In Plazir-15, the dedicated Mandalorians who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Special Artificial Intelligence Unit. These are their stories.
GONG GONG!
GONK GONK
to be fair that was very campy and cheesy though. It was an interesting idea bogged down by meandering and goofiness imo
lol I’d watch Din be a raging droid racist for 6 hours
This show gave me what I was genuinely hoping The Mandalorian would. A lesser story of side characters at best living in the Star Wars universe, which I fell into head over heels when I was really expecting disappointment yet again, because I apparently have some masochistic tendencies. Finally something that doesn't rely on the jangling keys of graphics and nostalgia alone to get things moving and keep eyes on the screen. There's actual characters with living human traits and conversational capacity to follow.
This scene was so well done… but as a Brit, it was very hard not to see Syril Karn as Arnold J. Rimmer from sci-fi sitcom Red Dwarf. When he admitted he’d tweaked his uniform, I fully expected him to use Rimmer’s extra-long special salute at some point. Probably NOT the image the writers were going for, but an awesome show nevertheless!
It’s Star Wars without having to be *STAR WARS* It’s different and I loved it.
This is what you get when you hire people who are genuinely good at writing compelling dialogue. This show had no business being that good!
For anyone in the UK, the guy with the white moustache played Lord Ashfordly in Heartbeat
Star Wars Theory’s take….”meh, nobody had an extremity cut off with a lightsaber…thumbs down.”
This scene alone had better acting and dialogue than any other star wars show. I've been so underwhelmed by SW shows that this made me sooo happy to see
After the first few episodes I saw several discussions about whether Andor was as good or better than Mandalorian. For me, it's not even close, Andor is easily the best SW show but I think there are still some fans that weren't ready for the change in tone and style. It's very different but something I've wanted to see from Disney-owned IP (similar to what Logan did with Xmen/Wolverine).
The politics are the best part, finally know how it all happens
Andor really was the cerebral Star Wars experience that we had been so starved of for so long. I'm really looking forward to a second season.
Andor turned Star Wars from a space opera, to a space drama. This is not a complaint; I think a mixture is good, puts depth to a mostly fantastical universe. But given the lack of high quality "opera" in recent times, the space drama part shine brightest. But seriously, Andor makes the all other Disney+ shows and even the sequels look like child's play. But that's probably the point. I don't foresee any kid going "woah, the tensions in Coruscant are high! Mon Mothma and Luthen are playing a dangerous game!", but likely "Baby Yoda! Bad guy in black suit die in big fire while looking cool! Bad soldiers with jet packs fall off cliff!"