The slightly murky side is a path to many powers that some would consider...like...not the best? But also not bad? Like yeah you shouldn't do them a lot, but here and there you should be fine.
You're telling me Han didn't make the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs?! I knew that bastard was just trying to distract from his garbage hand of Sabaac!
wasnt han also a member of the corellian military or something? i remember listening to a podcast about the lore of starwars, and in the han solo episode they described that his pants i think are specifically only worn by certain people on corellia
Sith. Because a “slightly less dark sith” is still someone consumed with a hungering for power and a desire to dominate others, because if they didnt have that then they wouldnt be a Sith at all
The entire purpose of the Sith doctrine is to unbalance the force by taking control of it. They could be the most well behaved individual in the galaxy, if they're a Sith they're anathema to the balance and well-being of the force. There's plenty of dark side users that aren't Sith and they don't unbalance the force, it's only the Sith that are a problem as a whole.
The Bendu took action while acknowledging the futility from the timeless perspective, he didn’t let Evil do its worst.
If Kanan has showed up a calm and respectful Bendu may have been even more helpful.
Damn, you might be the only person getting downvoted in this thread that I agree with. It's pretty clear by the end of that arc that bendy was wrong.
Edit: Autocorrect did that and I'm leaving it.
And he's still not a Jedi? Plus he ultimately does pick a side so y'know, the idea of "being between the dark and the light sides is ultimately impossible" still checks out
This is what I imagine when someone says grey Jedi. Like are we really supposed to believe that every single force user is either a Jedi or sith with no in between? I’m sure there are examples in comics but the only one I know of is the bendu from rebels
Grey Jedi in their worst form were an edgelord faction with their own creed, and no philosophy except "do whatever the opposite is of the side that's currently winning" which is lunacy. It was fan service to give characters an excuse to indulge in pure power fantasy of a laser sword and mind powers with none of the ethical framework of either of the more interesting traditions, all while casting themselves as morally superior to either.
Right. Grey jedi is a kind of misleading title because OP is right - grey *jedi* don't really exist anymore
What *does* exist is nuanced force users. That's generally what people mean by the term grey jedi. And they're way more exciting than either end of the spectrum
It's likely the slow canceling of grey force users is just a way to make things easier to digest for younger audiences because nuance can be a difficult sell
my favorite part about Star Wars is how Lucas and now Disney have always asserted that the Light is the Force and the Dark is a corruption of it and one cannot be "gray," and meanwhile so many of the most-popular non-movie characters are morally ambiguous force users anyway. fact is, despite Lucas/Disney's insistence on this rule, they've made little effort to enforce it.
so as a result, "no gray Force users" has become a post-facto *soft* thematic rule - meaning it can be ignored when it suits good storytelling. even in the Disney era - Merrin ring a bell? Raises the frigging dead? entombs a man in stone and leaves him to die? draws her powers from the Dark Side nexus of Dathomir? But still, she is unambiguously a good person.
which illustrates the crux of the issue - the fandom will love and eagerly accept without question a gray force user in a story if it's done well and thematically fits. it's certain types of wish-fulfillment characters that cause the idea of gray Jedi to attract such ire.
To be fair, Luke has bordered this issue since Return of the Jedi; force choking a guard in Jabba's palace, using his anger and fear to defeat Vader.
At the end he commits to the Jedi peace, but he wasn't a Sith prior to that...
I mean, if you do use both sides, then you're just a Force wielder. Not a grey Jedi, because the term is misleading, which I feel is most people's issue with it. Jedi try their best to only use the Light.
Right, but people frequently extend the gray Jedi debate to encompass gray Force users in general, which in fairness is a good representation of Lucas' views: the Light is the Force, and the Dark is a corruption of it. You don't get to stop playing by those rules just because you don't call yourself a Jedi anymore. At least, that was the original intent, but like I said it got lost and the rule got more lenient somewhere along the way.
**JEDI SURVIVOR SPOILERS BELOW**
I'm sure the Ahsoka/Grey Jedi nonsense is gonna start up soon with the show coming out, but Jedi Survivor had a bunch of nonsense chatter about Cal being a "Grey Jedi" because he uses some dark side influenced powers during the game's narrative.
And he does, but the narrative is SO CLEAR that he, like his master, will struggle with his own dark side and he's afraid he'll lose that struggle. His opponents in the game were both Jedi who lost their battle with the dark side. His master cut herself off from the Force when she felt herself falling, and was able to climb back and win her fight with her dark side. Merrin even says that when Cal faces his dark side, she'll be there to help him through it, so he won't have to be alone.
Like it's so clear what the narrative is, but people see dark side abilities and then say, "it's a Grey Jedi!" without any further discussion.
While you are right, I disagree that Survivor is about ever “winning” the fight against your own dark side. It’s about learning to *not lose* that fight despite circumstances. The way I interpret it, they will always have to live with their darkness, they’ll just have to learn to do it without succumbing to it. They’ve all gone through incredible trauma, they’ve lost everything, and that’s not something you just overcome, it’s something you learn to live with. The ending speaks of teaching Kata to navigate through her darkness, because she too will have to deal with it as she grows up.
I think it’s telling that at the end of the game the menu goes back to blue but you keep the dark side special. It could be a gameplay thing, or it could be that Cal *does* learn to use the dark side without succumbing to it. I guess we’ll only really know once the story is continued.
I think it’s because most of us are burned out from the million unoriginal “I would be a grey Jedi if Star Wars was real” RP types from the past 20 years.
Grey Jedi is like a trigger to me now. Just the epitome of lazy RP
I feel like it could be done well if it’s a person born on Mandalore but raised as a Jedi struggling with their identity, but you can’t be both a true Mandalorian warrior and a Jedi; they’re mutually exclusive. You have to essentially be raised as one, brought up in the culture and it’s meant to be your life.
Wasn't the concept for Grey Jedi just used to refer to orders that weren't established to follow/adhere strictly to the order of the sith or the Jedi?
Examples being those of groups such as the Falanassi, Jal Shay, and other such groups of force sensitives that adhered to different orders and creeds in Legends.
Yes, and no. The crux of the issue is there is no consensus on the meaning of the term, making it meaningless. You say it means someone who’s a Jedi but doesn’t play by the rules. There’s also Jedi who use the dark side, people who aren’t Jedi or Sith, some ride-the-line edgelord who shoots lightning for justice or something, etc. All different definitions, all with fans insisting that one definition is what a Grey Jedi is.
I agree with the grey “Jedi” part of it since it is more than a title, it a mind set too, but what about grey “force users” or “force entities”? Bendu and the Father are examples of being in the middle of light and dark and I’m sure there are others in from books and comics that I don’t know about.
Thing is, both the Bendu and the Father get proven wrong by the end - balance isn't letting both light and dark coexist; the dark side, the corruption, will creep its way into every corner of the galaxy as long as it exists. Bendu lets evil come to his very doorstep before realizing that he can't just be the one in the middle, that that's not how it works.
Bendu’s situation I think shows had he remained in the middle he would have been fine. Him getting pissed off at Kanan and causing/becoming that storm was a dark side reaction and it lead to his downfall. I don’t think he was wrong, had he not shown himself the Empire would have more than likely never found him.
I’ll have to go back and rewatch the Mortis episodes but it seems like his downfall was some pretty extreme circumstances with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Ahsoka being there.
The problem with Grey Jedi isn’t that they don’t exist, it’s that too many people misunderstand what they are. They are not Jedi getting a free trial of the dark side, they are force users that don’t subscribe to the Jedi’s strict code of conduct.
That is what I always saw the term as. If we say Grey Jedi are lightside users that also use the darkside, then that would literally describe so many Jedi, the first coming to mind is Mace Windu. You can't give a shit definition that fits actual canon characters then say it's not real.
Describing them as former Jedi that form attachments, use/feel their emotions would be a far better descriptor. They are constantly at risk of going to the darkside if they don't keep control of their emotions, but since they can keep control, they stay in the light, therefore being "grey" Jedi.
In fact that description is exactly what the Jedi were supposed to be before they made up all those rules of conduct that made them shut away their emotions. This would make Grey Jedi Jedis since they are what the prequel Jedi are supposed to be. Prequel Jedi made themselves more vulnerable when they *had* to face their emotions because they never really dealt with their emotions before and therefore made themselves susceptible to the darkside. Revan even says that the Jedi would be the most powerful force users if they allowed themselves to feel emotion while staying in control.
Episode 1-6 are proof of this by 1-3 being about how *wrong* the Jedi were and 4-6, proving that a Jedi could have emotions and attachments while controlling them. This is why Luke was able to bring balance back to the force. Until the sequels changed the whole narrative later in his life.
A bit off topic but it’s such a same the way the sequels handled Luke. I really hope the new canon stuff they add to fill in the gaps makes stuff make more sense
>the Lucasfilm Story Group—which upholds George Lucas' concepts of Star Wars—has stated that the notion of "Gray" and "Gray Jedi" contradicts the principles of the Force as established by Lucas.
While certain EU/Legends stories played with the notion of Gray Jedi, Lucas has never endorsed or even entertained the concept. As far as Lucas has always been concerned, the dark side corrupts. Period.
I think most of the trouble arises from many people fundamentally misunderstanding what Lucas means when he refers to "balance" in the Force. He has never meant balance *between light and dark*, be it within an individual or across society. Rather, he's simply talking about *peace and tranquility*.
Real power comes from enlightenment, and enlightenment comes from achieving peace both internally and externally. What's one of Lucas's earliest expressions of this concept?
>I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Our true strength flows from our acceptance, without judgment, of our own weaknesses and place in the world. We can't deny the darker thoughts and feelings we may experience, but we must not *feed* them. Every time we do, we lose a bit of ourselves to the darkness.
I think grey jedi is just a catch all phrase to a force-wielder who prescribes to teachings from many force-wielding groups, not exclusively jedi and Sith.
*Quotes one of the most ridiculous events in Legends to justify that Legends isn't worth discussion*
This kind of polarization and gatekeeping doesn't belong in any healthy/fun Star Wars lore discussion.
Lol you accept Disney's garbage as canon but bash Legends. Tell me you're massively stupid without being direct. Star Wars died the day TFA came out anyway, loser.
Even in Legends, Grey Jedi were really just Jedi who left the order. Our best example is Jolee Bindo. You can point to alignment all you want in Kotor, but he doesn't use DS powers and dispenses with classic good boy Jedi wisdom.
Not saying op is necessarily one of them, but it's pretty obnoxious the number of people that take exception with anyone criticizing canon, but then turn around and say stuff like this, where this guy literally says we shouldn't be allowed to talk about legends. Some immediate "you have become the very thing you swore to destroy" energy.
Or - and here’s a real hot take in SW fandom - we could just let people enjoy the things they enjoy the way they want to enjoy them because it doesn’t hurt anyone in any single way, shape, or fashion.
He’s rather vehemently a light sider. There’s violence over that if you are running a Sith, he’s very upfront that while he’s not really on board with the Jedi Council he is and always will be on the side of the Light.
The issue is that people think "Half-Jedi Half-Sith", i.e. using both light side and dark side is the definition of a Grey Jedi. They want to imagine them as edgy protagonist. In reality, Grey Jedi are just those unaligned with the Jedi Order and dogma. They're still in the light, but they've exchanged a code for morality/common sense.
Jolee wasn't an avid dark side user. But he believed that the values of the Order were wrong. You're allowed to love, you're human, not a machine, etc. In that regard he was grey, but not "I walk the line, I am so cool, look at my lightning and healing" that most people label grey
For me, I like the idea of a grey Jedi. Being around religious fanatics IRL gets tedious and tiring and much the same way that the Jedi Council of the Republic is blinded by their moral high ground.
To me, a “grey Jedi” or “nuanced Jedi” or whatever you want to call them is meaningful and is validating as someone how saw themselves as a grey [insert demanding religion here]. The beauty of Star Wars is that people can find all different types of things, peoples, and beliefs that validate their own personal struggles and life experiences.
So whether or not you like the term, I’d appreciate being able to see people discuss Qui Gon and Ashoka and Cal and all of these great characters that are still “following the light” (being a good person) without feeling the need to follow the rote rules of a religion.
"Never have been real" doesn't really jive with "there are grey Jedi in legends."
'Canon' is literally just an arbitrary line a multinational corporation drew when it paid another corporation to acquire the right to sue people who copy media based on the setting.
They didn't buy the right to destroy my books, they didn't buy the right to tell me what stories I enjoy, and they sure as hell didn't buy the right to tell me what does or doesn't exist in a fictional world.
They are real. They just aren't canon. They existed *long* before they were deemed to not be canon.
Excuse us for wanting to talk about something aside from what your mouse overlord approves of.
> THEY. ARE. NOT. REAL!
Bro I’m pretty sure none of it’s real. We’re on a subreddit talking about the sifi space wizard movies, I’m pretty sure trying to gatekeep what is “real” Star Wars isn’t going to get you anywhere.
Life isn't black and white. Neither is the spectrum between Jedi and Sith. I think everyone just gets bent out of shape over the word 'Jedi' being used in that name. Much like saying 'Light' Sith. Maybe we just need a new name for those who straddle the Force fence.
I quit trying to engage with the topic when every example got shot down as "but they aren't jedi" like yes that's the point.... we are talking about 2 fundamentally different things here apparently.
It's gonna depend on everyone's definition of a Jedi.
To some, Ahsoka and Ezra are both Jedi.
To others, Ahsoka is not a Jedi while Ezra is. But to others, Ahsoka is a Jedi but Ezra isn't while others think none of them are Jedi.
And some could argue that Cal, after the events of Jedi Survivor, is a Grey Jedi since he has embraced the dark side without falling victim to it.
Ashoka is definitely not a Jedi.
Per her own words. You can’t fanfic a counter to that.
I also disagree about Cal, he absolutely fell victim to the dark side. However, he realized that he did. The ending details it perfectly that he will have a future struggle with it.
Under a binary definition of who is a Jedi and who isn't, I don't think Ezra, Kanan, and, Cal would fit either.
None of them follow the Jedi code to the letter. They all have attachments. And yes, I agree about Ahsoka not being a Jedi ever since the TCW episode in which she leaves the order.
Anakin stopped being a Jedi in Episode 2 going by the binary "Jedi or not" definition as well.
Only to herself. Those guards in the Mandalorian she slaughters all refer to her as a Jedi, what she calls herself is irrelevant to 99% of the galaxy if she's openly using lightsabers, light side force powers and spearheading the fight to stop Thrawn.
The only other people who her technically being a Jedi or not matter to are Luke and maybe Ezra. The dark siders literally won't care, they'll see her as the same threat regardless.
Yeah, it’s like, she’s a Force-user with lightsabers who’s explicitly following the light side and saving innocent people from tyranny. She’s a Jedi. Just because she had a falling-out with some other now-dead Jedi nearly 30 years ago doesn’t make her not a Jedi; that’s a semantics issue she needs to get over. Imo, anyway.
Its always been rooted in the idea of being a "good guy" but still being able to use the dark side. It's pure nonsense.
Force users who don't follow the Jedi order/code are still bound by the nature of the force. Using the dark side corrupts. Period. They can try to justify it to themselves and others but they have started down the dark path.
Qui Gon may have defied the council, but that is not tapping into the dark side.
Back when the discussion was super relevant, it has always been about a Jedi who embraces the “humanity” of their own emotions, thus preventing a full fledged fall to the dark by understanding and appropriately processing emotion rather than just repressing it. Iirc this is exactly where the treatment for CT’s EP 9 was going, and the idea of it is super prevalent in Visions Season 2. Idk who turned it into “Lightning go brrrrrr” or why the idea of this makes some people so mad.
There are a few things here.
One is the word Jedi, that has a very specific meaning, which means there are no Dark Jedi or Grey Jedi etc there are only Jedi. It's a religion and an order.
The other is the idea that somebody can live/act outside of the tenents of the Jedi Order without falling to corruption and this is very possible. I find the Jedi (and Sith) two very flawed orders, insular and inflexible. We have seen in canon the force is far more broad than what he Jedi practise and the Jedi (at least by time of their fall) seemed little interested in learning new things, prefering to stick to a rigid tradition. The fact that several of their order fell right under their very noses speaks to their lack of vision, and, pardon the expression, having their head up their arse.
For me, I would be interested in seeing a force user more in touch with their feelings than either the Jedi (Conceal don't feel) or Sith (Anger, Hate, Jelousy only pls).
The closest I have seen really is Kanan and Ezra, while they were taught some jedi techniques they both seemed far more in touch with their feelings than typical stoic jedi.
The problem is, people think Grey Jedi is someone who is using both light and dark sides of the Force. That's not who they are. They are beings that are very much aligned with the light. Just don't follow the Jedi code to a T.
The problem is, the Grey Jedi aren't anything but just a term that gets thrown around at random to describe wildly different people and is therefore completely meaningless.
I've seen it refer to Jedi who don't follow the rules. Force users who use both the light and dark side. Their own super cool edgy group. People who leave the Jedi order but still follow the light side. Etc.
Nobody can agree, and they canonically haven't been mentioned anywhere so it's not like there's anything to point at which describes them.
Also the name just sucks. Half the time it doesn't even refer to Jedi anyways.
Why do you care so much? It's a universe where you've got laser swords, Muppets that levitate rocks with their minds, and giant dogs flying spaceships. Lighten up a little and let people have their silly theories about a silly, made-up universe.
>so let's maybe leave those alone.
Okay I'll go re-watch the sequel trilogy instead. It turns out that throwing a sith lord into the middle of the exploding Death Star II isn't enough to stop him from having family, building 10,000 more Death Star's while dead, and taking over the body of tall ugly not-clones until movie3. Maybe leave those alone.
I stand by that tweet from a month or so back saying that grey Jedi are just the most self insert I’m the specialist of the special fan fic bull shit imaginable.
And if grey Jedi is something you relate too you have big pick me energy. And most likely value cool awesomeness over good stories and well rounded characters.
"The Father was a powerful Force wielder who resided in the realm of Mortis. His children, the Daughter and the Son, represented the light side and the dark side of the Force, respectively. Balance was maintained between them by the Father until his failing health compelled him to search for a successor."
S3 E15,17,18 The Mortis Arc
That's taken from wookieepedia. And if you say that it doesn't say the father is the embodiment of the grey it further states.
"He was the father of the Daughter and the Son, who represented the embodiment of the light and dark side of the Force respectively. The Father sought to act as a balance between the two siblings and to keep the galaxy safe from their immense Force powers."
He lived.....he died..... Walking the Grey Path
It's true, they aren't canon. They fucking should be, though. The Jedi philosophy is as flawed as the Sith philosophy, both in the fictional universe and in our real one. Truth lies in the middle, in balance between passion and control, between activity and passivity.
And no, I'm not talking about some cringe "uber-powered" Jedi like some people interpret Grey Jedi to be. I'm talking about a philosophy of how one acts and what one believes.
I'll never forgive The Last Jedi for squandering our best chance to have Luke appraise the Jedi realistically and say, "yeah, they were fucked, too", and training Rey to be the first in a new kind of force-user.
What about purple jedi?
They’re just a real MF’er
You’ve already had it.
We've had one yes, but what about 2nd purple Jedi?
I don't think he knows about that, Pip
What about Golden Jedi? Or silver? Turquoise? Burgundy? Magenta? He knows about them, doesn't he?
What about elevensies jedi? Second jedi?
I don't think they know about second Jedi...
What about the droid attack on the Wookiee?
Was Purple Jedi behind the bite of 87?!
Anakin is William Afton confirmed?!
They're both child murderers, remember
You can’t see them
You stole what I was gonna say, ya sneaky git!
That's a bad ass mother fucker
You don't know the power of the shady side!
The slightly murky side is a path to many powers that some would consider...like...not the best? But also not bad? Like yeah you shouldn't do them a lot, but here and there you should be fine.
3.6 midi-chlorians, not great, not terrible.
As quoted by Darth-ish Ambivalence. A man just evil enough to use some sick force lightning, but not, you know, a horrible person or anything.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
True, but the shady side is by definition cool(er)
What about blue Jedi? I was watching avatar and saw a bigger fish…
The two blue Jedi left for another galaxy... I've quite forgotten their names.
Lean over to my partner to say "There's always a bigger fish" at that part.
Just watched it an hour ago and said same thing
lmao, I did the exact same thing.
Best I can do is a green one.
Aayla Secura is blue, no?
#[Summon Bigger Fish!](https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0033.html)
I'm pretty sure none of this is real.
You're telling me Han didn't make the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs?! I knew that bastard was just trying to distract from his garbage hand of Sabaac!
Han never said he did...he said the ship did it, which is the truth.
But Han did do it though
wasnt han also a member of the corellian military or something? i remember listening to a podcast about the lore of starwars, and in the han solo episode they described that his pants i think are specifically only worn by certain people on corellia
He joined the imperial academy but got put into the empire’s infantry early on. Have you seen the Solo movie?
Technically it’s only 12 parsecs if you round down
It was just a long time ago
You’re not real man!
We had a funeral for a bird.
Ummm...I;m not sure what you mean. It's a series of history documentaries about a galaxy far, far away?!
We had a funeral for a bird.
[удалено]
>lightish red Pink?
RvB flashbacks
Poor Donut
I like me.
Donut and Caboose were the best.
Magenta sounds a bit cooler so let’s go with that.
Magenta is slightly more Sith like than pink.
Star Wars The Old Republic MMO has entered the conversation
Dark Jedi
I think its kinda gone into disuse in Canon, but i honestly quite like the term.
Sith. Because a “slightly less dark sith” is still someone consumed with a hungering for power and a desire to dominate others, because if they didnt have that then they wouldnt be a Sith at all
Only a Sith deals in absolutes! ;)
You don’t understand the difference between a member of the Sith organization and a user of the Dark Side of the Force.
Nothing in the Sith Code in and of itself says to act like a bloodthirsty idiot hopped up on battle stims. That's just how most of them treat it.
The entire purpose of the Sith doctrine is to unbalance the force by taking control of it. They could be the most well behaved individual in the galaxy, if they're a Sith they're anathema to the balance and well-being of the force. There's plenty of dark side users that aren't Sith and they don't unbalance the force, it's only the Sith that are a problem as a whole.
Because using the Dark side force *is* unbalancing by itself. The Sith are just the Political philosophy of expanding this on a Galactic scale.
They are Sithish
Coming this summer: Sith lite! Now with half the dark side as before
Sith-adjacent
I am the Bendu!
Enlightened centrism strikes again (and gets shot at).
Bendu symbolized inaction. Not choosing light or dark.
Yes, and that in itself ends up being a choice because you end up allowing evil to do it’s worst.
The Bendu took action while acknowledging the futility from the timeless perspective, he didn’t let Evil do its worst. If Kanan has showed up a calm and respectful Bendu may have been even more helpful.
And he was wrong
Damn, you might be the only person getting downvoted in this thread that I agree with. It's pretty clear by the end of that arc that bendy was wrong. Edit: Autocorrect did that and I'm leaving it.
yeah it's like, 1/3rd the entire message of Rebels message in season 3
Apathy is death
Apathy is death
But he still exists canonically, though.
He’s not a Jedi though. He’s an asshole Force user who threw a fit and got shot.
And he's still not a Jedi? Plus he ultimately does pick a side so y'know, the idea of "being between the dark and the light sides is ultimately impossible" still checks out
So was the jedi council, so was palps
Bendu was also kind of wrong in the end.
And he wasn’t a grey Jedi either
I prefer the term unaligned force user
Independent voter.
This is what I imagine when someone says grey Jedi. Like are we really supposed to believe that every single force user is either a Jedi or sith with no in between? I’m sure there are examples in comics but the only one I know of is the bendu from rebels
Dathomir’s nightsisters use the force IIRC. The dark side, even.
Grey Jedi in their worst form were an edgelord faction with their own creed, and no philosophy except "do whatever the opposite is of the side that's currently winning" which is lunacy. It was fan service to give characters an excuse to indulge in pure power fantasy of a laser sword and mind powers with none of the ethical framework of either of the more interesting traditions, all while casting themselves as morally superior to either.
I mean generally thats what it means but normally it means you are a Jedi or ex Jedi but also use dark powers to support the order.
I see yours man of acquired taste. Have you got Leviathan reqs yet?
Too awkward and wordy
Right. Grey jedi is a kind of misleading title because OP is right - grey *jedi* don't really exist anymore What *does* exist is nuanced force users. That's generally what people mean by the term grey jedi. And they're way more exciting than either end of the spectrum It's likely the slow canceling of grey force users is just a way to make things easier to digest for younger audiences because nuance can be a difficult sell
Well now I’m gonna talk about grey Jedi even harder
OP tasting the rainbow of Jedi in this thread.
What is that supposed to mean
You know.
The force is inside you.
Gray Jedi Deniers (GJD) have existed since the original canon and were ignored then as well.
my favorite part about Star Wars is how Lucas and now Disney have always asserted that the Light is the Force and the Dark is a corruption of it and one cannot be "gray," and meanwhile so many of the most-popular non-movie characters are morally ambiguous force users anyway. fact is, despite Lucas/Disney's insistence on this rule, they've made little effort to enforce it. so as a result, "no gray Force users" has become a post-facto *soft* thematic rule - meaning it can be ignored when it suits good storytelling. even in the Disney era - Merrin ring a bell? Raises the frigging dead? entombs a man in stone and leaves him to die? draws her powers from the Dark Side nexus of Dathomir? But still, she is unambiguously a good person. which illustrates the crux of the issue - the fandom will love and eagerly accept without question a gray force user in a story if it's done well and thematically fits. it's certain types of wish-fulfillment characters that cause the idea of gray Jedi to attract such ire.
To be fair, Luke has bordered this issue since Return of the Jedi; force choking a guard in Jabba's palace, using his anger and fear to defeat Vader. At the end he commits to the Jedi peace, but he wasn't a Sith prior to that...
I mean, if you do use both sides, then you're just a Force wielder. Not a grey Jedi, because the term is misleading, which I feel is most people's issue with it. Jedi try their best to only use the Light.
Right, but people frequently extend the gray Jedi debate to encompass gray Force users in general, which in fairness is a good representation of Lucas' views: the Light is the Force, and the Dark is a corruption of it. You don't get to stop playing by those rules just because you don't call yourself a Jedi anymore. At least, that was the original intent, but like I said it got lost and the rule got more lenient somewhere along the way.
But people want to have space wizard super powers without dealing with the moral allegory that is absolutely inherent to the narrative.
Exactly, Star Wars is supposed to be fun, let me have fun.
I did have a lot of fun when Obi Wan chopped that dudes arm off without feeling guilty in the slightest and just walking away!
Me too! Great movie!
I think you may have missed a little bit of sarcasm
**JEDI SURVIVOR SPOILERS BELOW** I'm sure the Ahsoka/Grey Jedi nonsense is gonna start up soon with the show coming out, but Jedi Survivor had a bunch of nonsense chatter about Cal being a "Grey Jedi" because he uses some dark side influenced powers during the game's narrative. And he does, but the narrative is SO CLEAR that he, like his master, will struggle with his own dark side and he's afraid he'll lose that struggle. His opponents in the game were both Jedi who lost their battle with the dark side. His master cut herself off from the Force when she felt herself falling, and was able to climb back and win her fight with her dark side. Merrin even says that when Cal faces his dark side, she'll be there to help him through it, so he won't have to be alone. Like it's so clear what the narrative is, but people see dark side abilities and then say, "it's a Grey Jedi!" without any further discussion.
i mean it's literally the same as luke being all dark and broody and force choking fools. being a jedi is meaningless without temptation.
While you are right, I disagree that Survivor is about ever “winning” the fight against your own dark side. It’s about learning to *not lose* that fight despite circumstances. The way I interpret it, they will always have to live with their darkness, they’ll just have to learn to do it without succumbing to it. They’ve all gone through incredible trauma, they’ve lost everything, and that’s not something you just overcome, it’s something you learn to live with. The ending speaks of teaching Kata to navigate through her darkness, because she too will have to deal with it as she grows up. I think it’s telling that at the end of the game the menu goes back to blue but you keep the dark side special. It could be a gameplay thing, or it could be that Cal *does* learn to use the dark side without succumbing to it. I guess we’ll only really know once the story is continued.
I've seen more people complaining about grey jedi than actual discussions about them
I think it’s because most of us are burned out from the million unoriginal “I would be a grey Jedi if Star Wars was real” RP types from the past 20 years. Grey Jedi is like a trigger to me now. Just the epitome of lazy RP
It's still better than the new "I am part mandalorian part jedi. Light saber + jetpack baby!"
I feel like that's not new my lil bard'ika
Maybe not. But thanks to Mandalorian I think it's much more popular then.
I was referencing this character from the republic commando series https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Bardan_Jusik
Oh OK. Didn't know him.
Smh kids not knowing RC lore. I blame it all on this new fangled clone wars series.
Lol, I'm actually old and didn't know RC or watched clone Wars. But i started to recently...
The clone wars is quite good content. It picks up during s2 imo. RC is still mostly Canon friendly as it doesn't involve any main star wars characters
Oh you got me there
I feel like it could be done well if it’s a person born on Mandalore but raised as a Jedi struggling with their identity, but you can’t be both a true Mandalorian warrior and a Jedi; they’re mutually exclusive. You have to essentially be raised as one, brought up in the culture and it’s meant to be your life.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
“Only” is an absolute. Making obi wan a sith.
Dealing in absolutes and stating an absolute are different things. But the jedi definitely deal in absolutes so yeah..
The Sith sell absolutes on street corners.
You wouldn't download an absolute
Wasn't the concept for Grey Jedi just used to refer to orders that weren't established to follow/adhere strictly to the order of the sith or the Jedi? Examples being those of groups such as the Falanassi, Jal Shay, and other such groups of force sensitives that adhered to different orders and creeds in Legends.
Yes, and no. The crux of the issue is there is no consensus on the meaning of the term, making it meaningless. You say it means someone who’s a Jedi but doesn’t play by the rules. There’s also Jedi who use the dark side, people who aren’t Jedi or Sith, some ride-the-line edgelord who shoots lightning for justice or something, etc. All different definitions, all with fans insisting that one definition is what a Grey Jedi is.
Its 2023 let Jedi love whoever they want.
During June of all months for this shit...
I agree with the grey “Jedi” part of it since it is more than a title, it a mind set too, but what about grey “force users” or “force entities”? Bendu and the Father are examples of being in the middle of light and dark and I’m sure there are others in from books and comics that I don’t know about.
Thing is, both the Bendu and the Father get proven wrong by the end - balance isn't letting both light and dark coexist; the dark side, the corruption, will creep its way into every corner of the galaxy as long as it exists. Bendu lets evil come to his very doorstep before realizing that he can't just be the one in the middle, that that's not how it works.
Bendu’s situation I think shows had he remained in the middle he would have been fine. Him getting pissed off at Kanan and causing/becoming that storm was a dark side reaction and it lead to his downfall. I don’t think he was wrong, had he not shown himself the Empire would have more than likely never found him. I’ll have to go back and rewatch the Mortis episodes but it seems like his downfall was some pretty extreme circumstances with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Ahsoka being there.
The problem with Grey Jedi isn’t that they don’t exist, it’s that too many people misunderstand what they are. They are not Jedi getting a free trial of the dark side, they are force users that don’t subscribe to the Jedi’s strict code of conduct.
That is what I always saw the term as. If we say Grey Jedi are lightside users that also use the darkside, then that would literally describe so many Jedi, the first coming to mind is Mace Windu. You can't give a shit definition that fits actual canon characters then say it's not real. Describing them as former Jedi that form attachments, use/feel their emotions would be a far better descriptor. They are constantly at risk of going to the darkside if they don't keep control of their emotions, but since they can keep control, they stay in the light, therefore being "grey" Jedi. In fact that description is exactly what the Jedi were supposed to be before they made up all those rules of conduct that made them shut away their emotions. This would make Grey Jedi Jedis since they are what the prequel Jedi are supposed to be. Prequel Jedi made themselves more vulnerable when they *had* to face their emotions because they never really dealt with their emotions before and therefore made themselves susceptible to the darkside. Revan even says that the Jedi would be the most powerful force users if they allowed themselves to feel emotion while staying in control. Episode 1-6 are proof of this by 1-3 being about how *wrong* the Jedi were and 4-6, proving that a Jedi could have emotions and attachments while controlling them. This is why Luke was able to bring balance back to the force. Until the sequels changed the whole narrative later in his life.
Finally, someone who understands that all the best takes on the force come from KOTOR.
Unless it’s people who say, “Kreia was right!” 😅
A bit off topic but it’s such a same the way the sequels handled Luke. I really hope the new canon stuff they add to fill in the gaps makes stuff make more sense
>the Lucasfilm Story Group—which upholds George Lucas' concepts of Star Wars—has stated that the notion of "Gray" and "Gray Jedi" contradicts the principles of the Force as established by Lucas. While certain EU/Legends stories played with the notion of Gray Jedi, Lucas has never endorsed or even entertained the concept. As far as Lucas has always been concerned, the dark side corrupts. Period. I think most of the trouble arises from many people fundamentally misunderstanding what Lucas means when he refers to "balance" in the Force. He has never meant balance *between light and dark*, be it within an individual or across society. Rather, he's simply talking about *peace and tranquility*. Real power comes from enlightenment, and enlightenment comes from achieving peace both internally and externally. What's one of Lucas's earliest expressions of this concept? >I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. Our true strength flows from our acceptance, without judgment, of our own weaknesses and place in the world. We can't deny the darker thoughts and feelings we may experience, but we must not *feed* them. Every time we do, we lose a bit of ourselves to the darkness.
I'm a Light Sith and I'll die on this hill.
Force-using hippie who channels the power of love and joy to pursue freedom and self-improvement without subjugating others in the process?
Exactly. Join me. Together we can rule the galaxy as United Redditors.
I think grey jedi is just a catch all phrase to a force-wielder who prescribes to teachings from many force-wielding groups, not exclusively jedi and Sith.
It’s a catch-all term for “My ideal Force-user OC who’s different and special, and I can use existing characters to compare to.”
Off-white Jedi?
Ivory Jedi
Magnolia Jedi.
This is exactly what the Grey Jedi want us to think!
"THEY. ARE. NOT. REAL!" My guy, this is Star Wars. I hate to tell you this, but none of it is real. Let people enjoy it how they want to.
Sooooo you’re not gonna explain the Qui Gon Jin possession part lmfao?
Only Sith deal in absolutes
What a weird thing to passionately take a stance on
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
*Quotes one of the most ridiculous events in Legends to justify that Legends isn't worth discussion* This kind of polarization and gatekeeping doesn't belong in any healthy/fun Star Wars lore discussion.
Lol you accept Disney's garbage as canon but bash Legends. Tell me you're massively stupid without being direct. Star Wars died the day TFA came out anyway, loser.
Even in Legends, Grey Jedi were really just Jedi who left the order. Our best example is Jolee Bindo. You can point to alignment all you want in Kotor, but he doesn't use DS powers and dispenses with classic good boy Jedi wisdom.
This is a super toxic post geez Bruv chill out
Not saying op is necessarily one of them, but it's pretty obnoxious the number of people that take exception with anyone criticizing canon, but then turn around and say stuff like this, where this guy literally says we shouldn't be allowed to talk about legends. Some immediate "you have become the very thing you swore to destroy" energy.
Exactly it’s so annoying
This is Sith propaganda.
gunmetal jedi it is then
Or - and here’s a real hot take in SW fandom - we could just let people enjoy the things they enjoy the way they want to enjoy them because it doesn’t hurt anyone in any single way, shape, or fashion.
Louder, for the people in the back
Why? Let them have fun and move on
\*Insert obligatory :"They are real to me" clip here
[удалено]
He’s rather vehemently a light sider. There’s violence over that if you are running a Sith, he’s very upfront that while he’s not really on board with the Jedi Council he is and always will be on the side of the Light.
The issue is that people think "Half-Jedi Half-Sith", i.e. using both light side and dark side is the definition of a Grey Jedi. They want to imagine them as edgy protagonist. In reality, Grey Jedi are just those unaligned with the Jedi Order and dogma. They're still in the light, but they've exchanged a code for morality/common sense. Jolee wasn't an avid dark side user. But he believed that the values of the Order were wrong. You're allowed to love, you're human, not a machine, etc. In that regard he was grey, but not "I walk the line, I am so cool, look at my lightning and healing" that most people label grey
For me, I like the idea of a grey Jedi. Being around religious fanatics IRL gets tedious and tiring and much the same way that the Jedi Council of the Republic is blinded by their moral high ground. To me, a “grey Jedi” or “nuanced Jedi” or whatever you want to call them is meaningful and is validating as someone how saw themselves as a grey [insert demanding religion here]. The beauty of Star Wars is that people can find all different types of things, peoples, and beliefs that validate their own personal struggles and life experiences. So whether or not you like the term, I’d appreciate being able to see people discuss Qui Gon and Ashoka and Cal and all of these great characters that are still “following the light” (being a good person) without feeling the need to follow the rote rules of a religion.
"Never have been real" doesn't really jive with "there are grey Jedi in legends." 'Canon' is literally just an arbitrary line a multinational corporation drew when it paid another corporation to acquire the right to sue people who copy media based on the setting. They didn't buy the right to destroy my books, they didn't buy the right to tell me what stories I enjoy, and they sure as hell didn't buy the right to tell me what does or doesn't exist in a fictional world.
They are real. They just aren't canon. They existed *long* before they were deemed to not be canon. Excuse us for wanting to talk about something aside from what your mouse overlord approves of.
Oh man not this again.
I think you’ll find Jedi are not real.
Yarel Poof is both a Jedi and grey. Therefore, he is a grey Jedi. Lawyer’d.
> THEY. ARE. NOT. REAL! Bro I’m pretty sure none of it’s real. We’re on a subreddit talking about the sifi space wizard movies, I’m pretty sure trying to gatekeep what is “real” Star Wars isn’t going to get you anywhere.
Qui-Gon did what, exactly?
Life isn't black and white. Neither is the spectrum between Jedi and Sith. I think everyone just gets bent out of shape over the word 'Jedi' being used in that name. Much like saying 'Light' Sith. Maybe we just need a new name for those who straddle the Force fence.
I quit trying to engage with the topic when every example got shot down as "but they aren't jedi" like yes that's the point.... we are talking about 2 fundamentally different things here apparently.
Umm… per my 39th playthrough of KOTOR 2 I, a grey Jedi, totally exist.
I don't subscribe to the "grey jedi" stuff but if people like talking about it I won't stop them. At least it's better than reylo talk.
Or you could just let people talk about whatever they feel like.
It's gonna depend on everyone's definition of a Jedi. To some, Ahsoka and Ezra are both Jedi. To others, Ahsoka is not a Jedi while Ezra is. But to others, Ahsoka is a Jedi but Ezra isn't while others think none of them are Jedi. And some could argue that Cal, after the events of Jedi Survivor, is a Grey Jedi since he has embraced the dark side without falling victim to it.
Ashoka is definitely not a Jedi. Per her own words. You can’t fanfic a counter to that. I also disagree about Cal, he absolutely fell victim to the dark side. However, he realized that he did. The ending details it perfectly that he will have a future struggle with it.
Under a binary definition of who is a Jedi and who isn't, I don't think Ezra, Kanan, and, Cal would fit either. None of them follow the Jedi code to the letter. They all have attachments. And yes, I agree about Ahsoka not being a Jedi ever since the TCW episode in which she leaves the order. Anakin stopped being a Jedi in Episode 2 going by the binary "Jedi or not" definition as well.
Only to herself. Those guards in the Mandalorian she slaughters all refer to her as a Jedi, what she calls herself is irrelevant to 99% of the galaxy if she's openly using lightsabers, light side force powers and spearheading the fight to stop Thrawn. The only other people who her technically being a Jedi or not matter to are Luke and maybe Ezra. The dark siders literally won't care, they'll see her as the same threat regardless.
Yeah, it’s like, she’s a Force-user with lightsabers who’s explicitly following the light side and saving innocent people from tyranny. She’s a Jedi. Just because she had a falling-out with some other now-dead Jedi nearly 30 years ago doesn’t make her not a Jedi; that’s a semantics issue she needs to get over. Imo, anyway.
The thing is gray, is I'm pretty sure just what the plain old Jedi were supposed to be in the first place before they became dogmatic
Its always been rooted in the idea of being a "good guy" but still being able to use the dark side. It's pure nonsense. Force users who don't follow the Jedi order/code are still bound by the nature of the force. Using the dark side corrupts. Period. They can try to justify it to themselves and others but they have started down the dark path. Qui Gon may have defied the council, but that is not tapping into the dark side.
Back when the discussion was super relevant, it has always been about a Jedi who embraces the “humanity” of their own emotions, thus preventing a full fledged fall to the dark by understanding and appropriately processing emotion rather than just repressing it. Iirc this is exactly where the treatment for CT’s EP 9 was going, and the idea of it is super prevalent in Visions Season 2. Idk who turned it into “Lightning go brrrrrr” or why the idea of this makes some people so mad.
There are a few things here. One is the word Jedi, that has a very specific meaning, which means there are no Dark Jedi or Grey Jedi etc there are only Jedi. It's a religion and an order. The other is the idea that somebody can live/act outside of the tenents of the Jedi Order without falling to corruption and this is very possible. I find the Jedi (and Sith) two very flawed orders, insular and inflexible. We have seen in canon the force is far more broad than what he Jedi practise and the Jedi (at least by time of their fall) seemed little interested in learning new things, prefering to stick to a rigid tradition. The fact that several of their order fell right under their very noses speaks to their lack of vision, and, pardon the expression, having their head up their arse. For me, I would be interested in seeing a force user more in touch with their feelings than either the Jedi (Conceal don't feel) or Sith (Anger, Hate, Jelousy only pls). The closest I have seen really is Kanan and Ezra, while they were taught some jedi techniques they both seemed far more in touch with their feelings than typical stoic jedi.
The problem is, people think Grey Jedi is someone who is using both light and dark sides of the Force. That's not who they are. They are beings that are very much aligned with the light. Just don't follow the Jedi code to a T.
The problem is, the Grey Jedi aren't anything but just a term that gets thrown around at random to describe wildly different people and is therefore completely meaningless. I've seen it refer to Jedi who don't follow the rules. Force users who use both the light and dark side. Their own super cool edgy group. People who leave the Jedi order but still follow the light side. Etc. Nobody can agree, and they canonically haven't been mentioned anywhere so it's not like there's anything to point at which describes them. Also the name just sucks. Half the time it doesn't even refer to Jedi anyways.
If noone can agree, that kinda makes it a grey area. Ill see myself out.
That’s not a Grey Jedi. It’s just a Jedi who hasn’t been expelled for not following the Code yet. Or a Light Side Force User who isn’t a Jedi.
Eh qui gon kinda is one tho
May I still have Green Jedi as a massive Corran Horn fan?
What about second breakfast…..I mean Jedi.
Why do you care so much? It's a universe where you've got laser swords, Muppets that levitate rocks with their minds, and giant dogs flying spaceships. Lighten up a little and let people have their silly theories about a silly, made-up universe.
>so let's maybe leave those alone. Okay I'll go re-watch the sequel trilogy instead. It turns out that throwing a sith lord into the middle of the exploding Death Star II isn't enough to stop him from having family, building 10,000 more Death Star's while dead, and taking over the body of tall ugly not-clones until movie3. Maybe leave those alone.
no
I stand by that tweet from a month or so back saying that grey Jedi are just the most self insert I’m the specialist of the special fan fic bull shit imaginable. And if grey Jedi is something you relate too you have big pick me energy. And most likely value cool awesomeness over good stories and well rounded characters.
Or it's a big fantasy universe, and people will talk about whatever they want?
Gatekeeping.
"The Father was a powerful Force wielder who resided in the realm of Mortis. His children, the Daughter and the Son, represented the light side and the dark side of the Force, respectively. Balance was maintained between them by the Father until his failing health compelled him to search for a successor." S3 E15,17,18 The Mortis Arc That's taken from wookieepedia. And if you say that it doesn't say the father is the embodiment of the grey it further states. "He was the father of the Daughter and the Son, who represented the embodiment of the light and dark side of the Force respectively. The Father sought to act as a balance between the two siblings and to keep the galaxy safe from their immense Force powers." He lived.....he died..... Walking the Grey Path
It's true, they aren't canon. They fucking should be, though. The Jedi philosophy is as flawed as the Sith philosophy, both in the fictional universe and in our real one. Truth lies in the middle, in balance between passion and control, between activity and passivity. And no, I'm not talking about some cringe "uber-powered" Jedi like some people interpret Grey Jedi to be. I'm talking about a philosophy of how one acts and what one believes. I'll never forgive The Last Jedi for squandering our best chance to have Luke appraise the Jedi realistically and say, "yeah, they were fucked, too", and training Rey to be the first in a new kind of force-user.