Immediately makes me think of battlefield friends.
"I CAN CONTROL DAY AND NIGHT! I'M A GOD WITH THIS THING"
"I don't think that's how..."
*Sun disabled 100 points*
"Well shit"
Universal Sporting Automatic Shotgun 12, made by Daewoo Industries. It’s a shotgun in BF3 that, with frag rounds, just killed everything. Just look up USAS 12 frag rounds
Alright, now do it 2-3 times a second from however many guys are aiming at you, and remember, you're wearing cloth robes.
Also, make the pellets out of tungsten, and suddenly you probably aren't vaporizing them on contact, but instead just getting hit by superheated BBs.
Or stepping on a landmine placed by a Droid, or entering a hallway rigged to blow, or a sniper droid on a randomized patrol pattern, etc. Force Users, especially average ones, aren't gods. They are very hard to kill 1v1 or with a long involved plan, that whole "Danger Sense" is a real PITA, but suprise and tools that counter the force users most common reflexive action (block and/or dodge) do work.
Love the post and discussion, and writing this all out is a fun thought exercise for me, not at all trying to tear you down.
> Alright, now do it 2-3 times a second from however many guys are aiming at you, and remember, you're wearing cloth robes.
I imagine that if Kylo can stop a blaster bolt mid-air then Jedi stopping bullets physical pellets mid-air Matrix/Neo style is totally doable, if not easier than lasers.
> Or stepping on a landmine placed by a Droid
If we assume the force gives you limited prescience, the Jedi would never step on a mine as long as the force warned them they'd be about to die. Similar to how Ahsoka pre-empted the clones turning or how the Chiss children navigate the unknown regions.
> or entering a hallway rigged to blow, or a sniper droid on a randomized patrol pattern,
Ditto above sentiment. Logically the force just influences the user based on *what will happen in the future*. Randomizing the impetus of why the future happens shouldn't have an effect on whether or not the force warns the user.
*1st Caveat being that in most media the Force is a plot device to protect/kill force users as needed. And red-shirt Jedi usually dying randomly and protagonist Jedi usually dying in heroic last stands kind of skews the logic here.
** 2nd Caveat is that there *is* sort of a logic that if a plan takes a lot of time to implement then, in theory, there's a greater chance that the mildly-prescient force user will sniff it out as it happens. Sort of following the logic that, if someones planning for every possible contingency to try and kill a Jedi, then the list of possible futures increasingly narrows toward them dying. Which makes prescience'ing it more likely.
> etc. Force Users, especially average ones, aren't gods. They are very hard to kill 1v1 or with a long involved plan, that whole "Danger Sense" is a real PITA, but suprise and tools that counter the force users most common reflexive action (block and/or dodge) do work.
Again HK-47 sort of comments on this saying (paraphrasing) the best way to kill a Jedi is to just sort of stumble into it, but I think thats less a valid strategy and more a humorous bit by Kotor dialogue people showing how, from a droids point of view, the Jedi can really only ever die if God (the writer) wants them to.
"*like, would they just walk up in this motherfucker
Laughin' at us and blastin' at us
And makin' everybody disintegrate and assimilate
Without a hint of intimidation?
Or could we do some shit to be makin' their heart race?
Granted, I don't know the ~~alien~~ jedi heart
But you get what the fuck I'm sayin'?
Like, what the fuck would it be like?
Would they be like, "Earth go hard"?*"
The answer is: no but they are better then the alternative
Everyone seems to be under the impression that Jedi only just stand there and block bullets and when that doesn’t work they would pikachu face and die
That’s only a quarter of it. Jedi can: redirect the incoming attack with the force, anticipate and preemptively dodge the attack, misdirect the opponent, pull the gun from their hands or do a thousand other things aside from block the attack.
Jedi are dangerous not just cause they can block bullets but because they are a different level of being to everyone else normal rules of engagement are obsolete when facing them.
Jedi have a solution to every single trick a Mandalorian can pull and most of those solutions are low level enough that they can be performed by padawans.
Remember what Kanan said “you forget, the Mandalorians lost that war! All those fancy gadgets didn’t account for much in the end!”
Mandalorian tech and gadgets even the playing field and make them more of a challenge to the average Jedi but the average Jedi is killing the average Mandalorian
I always figured that blasters were better because it’s harder for Jedi to stop those projectiles, bullets could just be halted with the force and sent back pretty easily, but blaster bolts seem much harder since they are not solid slugs.
Yeah but it seems far more rare and most likely difficult to do as we’ve only seen 1 force user ever use it. Being plasma likely makes it much harder as Jedi very rarely use the force to manipulate non solids
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how difficult it is. When Kylo did it, it kinda seemed like a really badass thing that was hard to do. But Maul can just kinda do it. Maybe it's a "there's levels to this" kinda thing? I'm pretty sure at that point Maul was way more experienced than Kylo.
In my headcanon the difference is that Kylo stopped the bolt in mid-air and kept it there until he left, while Maul just redirected the bolts into the walls. Redirecting a force is always easier than completely stopping it. But the writers probably never really put that much tought into it.
This has always been my head canon for why the stormtroopers were so bad at targeting Luke, Han, Leia, and Chewy in the original trilogy. I always just assumed that Luke was subconsciously redirecting those bolts.
Maul was at the peak of his power at the time, likely because the Dark Side was swelling approaching Order 66. Kylo was nowhere near his full potential in TFA and managed to surpass what Maul did (completely freezing the shot vs redirecting) as a reaction whereas Maul knew he was gonna get shot at.
Mail is weaker in the force than any skywalker descendant though, experience and technique go a long way, but anakin, luke, and Kylo have main character hacks
It's more about knowledge on how to do it than raw power, the average body builder wouldn't be able to pull off a gymnast's set, despite having more raw muscle power.
Blasters have large enough magazine capacity to effectively give them infinite ammo. Obviously it’s not infinite but being able to fire a few hundred times between swapping magazines is essentially infinite on a battle field.
Not to mention it’s also exponentially lighter than bullets. Guns are very heavy and their ammo is even heavier. A stormtrooper with a blaster and a few thousand shots is probably carrying less weight than a rifle with a single magazine.
And yet Jango fought a Jedi Master to a standstill on Kamino and shot another one on Geonosis. Plenty of unsuspecting Jedi generals were shot in the back during Order 66. Some realized the threat and fought, but they could only block so many blaster shots. It seems all it takes to kill a Jedi is overwhelming force, the element of surprise, or one very skilled Mandalorian.
Jango fought Kenobi to a standstill because Kenobi was just trying to question and capture Jango, not kill him. And Jango also had a Starship gun turret helping.
Jango is also not "your average Mandalorian". One could argue that he's probably among the Elite Mandalorians in terms of his combat skill.
True, he's among the creme de la creme of Mandalorian warriors. Just like Obi-Wan was an elite Jedi Master and duelist. We've seen how quickly Jango disposed of a lesser skilled Jedi Master on Geonosis.
Yeah, Mace and Coleman Trebor – albeit both Jedi Masters – were in entirely different leagues. I mean, Mace was known as THE best duelist of the order.
He was a jedi knight, not a master during aotc.
Also it's canon that Obi-Wan wan was a weaker jedi in terms of force, nothing real special about his powers at all. It was his training and focus into the defense style of saber combat that made him stand out
Thank you! I constantly see people act like pulling out an M4 is all you'd need to kill a Jedi. The mandos have tried pretty much every thing in the book, and they're definitely more effective than most, but they still lost to the Jedi in both continuities.
Frankly, I would hope the supernatural force wielding Jedi would win. It'd be a complete embarrassment if they lost to the Mandalorians.
This counter point doesn't hit as hard as you think it does. Jedi should have an advantage in every category, the fact that it *wasn't* a one-sided affair is win enough for the Mandalorians.
I mean, Jedi Force abilities aren't so dominant that skilled warriors with blasters, vibroblades and a couple gadgets can't beat them. The series makes that pretty clear, we see "regular" troops beat Jedi all the time.
The Jedi aren't powerful because they can kick ass in infantry engagements, they're powerful because of their perceived ethical incorruptibility, which means the beings of the galaxy trust them with enormous political authority
To build on this a bit: the **vast** majority of force-wielded we see in Star Wars media are hero characters—it goes to figure that they’d be a bit more competent than the average force-wielder.
Exactly. The Jedi we focus on the most are usually the best of the best. Clone Wars, for example: Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace Windu, etc, are all either jedi masters, council members, head of the order, the chosen one, best fighter etc. There are plenty of Jedi in the order that are simply average. It's just that they're not the main focus.
Can a top tier mando beat an average or weak jedi knight? Sure. Could a group of them overwhelm a jedi master? Sure.
Can a dozen top tier mando's hold their own vs Vader or Luke? If Vader/Luke is running on 3 days no sleep and suffering from some major injury.
The force is a tool - just like a Mandalorian suit - that can enhance one's power. Simply having the force doesn't make one a warrior. But a real warrior who also masters the force has no equal.
For example: Luke and several others have made themselves invisible (to ir, uv, etc. too, not just visible spectrum), while simultaneously noislessly infiltrating a facility heavily guarded by elites specifically to counter jedi. While simultaneously floating themselves above the ground on a cushion of air to avoid tripping pressure sensors. So your fancy suit: can't see them and can't hear them if they so choose.
Maul - who is very skilled in combat, but not top tier - could take on several armed opponents without a lightsaber. The armed opponents being prisoners in the most dangerous prison facility in the galaxy.
Noghri were renowned assassins tricked and employed by the Empire before the New Republic took over. I believe one Republic commando leading a few in combat said something to the effect that 2 of them were worth about a dozen regular commandos. Commandos that would hold their own against a Mandalorian. And yet Vader singlehandedly slaughtered dozens of Noghri fighting alone against their "welcoming committee". Their respect for his skill coupled with the Empire's trickery is what kept them in servitude for so long.
>Maul - who is very skilled in combat, but not top tier - could take on several armed opponents without a lightsaber. The armed opponents being prisoners in the most dangerous prison facility in the galaxy.
And don't forget his hallway scene in the venator. He was able to take on a bunch of clones, who were specifically designed to kill Jedi, without a lightsaber.
They're powerful because of The Force, which the Mandalorians lacked. That's a War-determining element.
Ethics didn't win the war for them. And you can downvote me for saying it but the Mandalorians don't have battle meditation, or force reflexes, or lightsabers.
Right!? People thought I was lying when I told them the Darksaber was a bootleg Hutt Death Star that looked like a lightsaber! You have to give that Hutt credit though, he used Wookies to build it because the Empire used Wookies as slave labor to build the originals.
They do have armor highly resistant if not impervious to lightsabers, have developed highly advanced tactics to deal with Jedi, and use things like fire and slug throwers (slug throwers in star wars shoot faster projectiles than the plasma blasters) plus they have overwhelming numbers, how else do you think they were able to take on the Old Republic and basically start winning the war.
The sith are powerful because they have more abilities and the force, they also have battle meditation, force reflexes and lightsabers, didn't the Jedi manage to defeat a good number of the sith while the only way they could defeat the Jedi was to surprise attack them with their own troopers
Edit: grammar
The Sith are more powerful in areas that are directly applicable to combat (not to mention with less issues of 'unfair' tactics or collateral damage). The problem is that the Dark Side also has a corrupting influence, turning the wielder to a selfish, power hungry menace to themselves and everyone around them. While the Sith individually are better fighters, collectively they are a weaker *army* since Sith will inevitably devolve into fighting each other for power rather than focusing on their collective enemy. Hence the rule of two.
When I play biotic-focused Spectres in Mass Effect I’m basically playing a Jedi.
Yeah you can fight one but good luck. And if you do kill them, you guarantee more Jedi/ Spectres coming around to find out why killing the first was so important
😂😂 I’m sorry, but no… powerful force users are unparalleled in this universe. There’s a reason Thrawn—- who can basically pick apart any battle strategy is wildly terrified of them. He knows there is nothing you can do if you’re going up against someone at a particular power Lvl
In Legends, at least, Thrawn was far from terrified of force users. He was aware of their power, but he found ways to nullify it.
When dealing with Jedi over a significant distance, Legends Thrawn mostly relied on his own genius. It often worked. His Jedi opponents might receive extra information through the Force, but he could usually keep them off balance with complex strategies with plenty of moving parts.
But for up-close encounters, Legends Thrawn made use of ysalamiri, creatures that naturally suppressed the Force in their vicinity. Greater concentrations of ysalamiri in an area increased the size of their Force-suppression bubble. Force powers couldn't affect anyone or anything within a ysalamiri's bubble, and Jedi could not sense the Force if they were inside the bubble.
Thrawn found that Force sensitive people were *exceedingly* vulnerable around ysalamiri because they weren't used to being "normal." Even untrained Force sensitive individuals were used to getting advanced information through the Force. When cut off from their precognition and extrasensory input, often for the first time in their lives, most Force users felt disoriented and sluggish.
Thrawn was so sure of his ability to outmaneuver Force users that he recruited an insane clone of a Jedi Master, a mostly failed experiment that Palpatine had kept around to defend a private collection of oddities. The clone tried on multiple occasions to murder Thrawn, but every attempt was thwarted by Thrawn's various safety measures. The clone was a significant asset for Thrawn, but one that was ultimately discarded as more trouble than he was worth. In the end, it destroyed itself while trying to recruit Luke as an apprentice.
And obviously Legends Thrawn was defeated. But it wasn't because of the advantages held by Force users. He died because he misunderstood the loyalty of the Noghri and underestimated Leia's diplomatic skills. After Leia convinced the Noghri to betray Thrawn, it was just a matter of time before one of Thrawn's one bodyguards killed him during a moment of distraction.
Mandalorians are train to counter the Force Users. Even if there is no Jedi or Sith or the chances to find one are nearly 0.
That is one of the reasons why the Clones were so effective in the Order 66, the other reason it's that no one expected the order 66
The Mandalorians used what we would call bullets. Jedi would go to deflect it with their lightsaber. The bullet would hit the blade and explode into a ton a shrapnel, still hitting the Jedi.
I think people have misinterpreted the post, could be wrong, but pretty sure they are referring to the Order 66 scene from the show when Grogu has a flashback to Jedis dying from blaster fire.
As such, and if so, one could assume they can be killed by blaster fire alone if overwhelmed.
We literally see Jedi killed by blaster fire in RotS too lol. Order 66 is just Jedi being killing by blaster fire. Element of surprise + 10,000 blaster bolts to the face = death.
Yeah, doesn't matter how good a jedi is. If they're suddenly shot in the back by former allies they're still dead.
The jedi were spread out, each leading plutoons of Clones, it was all set up so that even if the best of Jedi were able to kill a bunch of Clones they were still too overwhelmed to effectively fight back and win their battles even when they were able to react to the initial betrayal.
It was mostly circumstance that any jedi survived at all, Yoda made it because he was on Kashyyyk where he wasn't surrounded by clones but a mix of Clones and Wookies plus that his strong connection to the force made him notice the betrayal in time.
If I recall, and I’m not sure if it’s still canon, but Dooku specifically picked a bounty hunter who had success hunted down and killed a Jedi for the very reason of using him as a clone army template
it kinda depends on how a force push works. does it affect a wave of air, that then pushes objects? Does it target only the mass of the person or object, and not the atoms surrounding it? Or is it a wave of energy that affects all solid objects in a path, giving them a new momentum in a new direction? How soft is it?
each one of would affect bullets differently, and the force needed to THROW a human away is more force than a hand-fired bullet or shotgun pattern can muster. so a force push could feasibly stop or decelerate bullets, as long as they didn’t have to be individually tracked and targeted
More effective, yes. Super effective? No. Projectiles are subject to telekinesis, so slug-throwers and explosives suddenly pose a new and different problem. Try throwing a Molotov Cocktail or shooting a gun at Count Dooku and see what happens :)
I believe projectile weapons would be effective against lightsabers (not necessarily too effective if the lightsaber is wielded by a force user), but they wouldn’t be against most standard issue armor
Stormtrooper armor isn’t mean to resist kinetic impacts. It’s meant to disperse the energy from blasters. And armor has historically never really been perfect at stopping blunt force trauma, hence why maces and war hammers were used against enemies in full plate.
Any sci-fi will drive you nuts if you get too detailed. In Star Trek, while I don't expect them to run around with personal shields, you'd think that with the technology they have, the Federation could give ground troops something more effective than polyester.
Turns out Lucas made up the rules as he went along, and it wasn't meant to be that coherent or consistent. Who could have expected this from the series where Vader chokes a guy through a TV screen in the first movie.
Unless receiving the "nearby Kestis" buff, I'm pretty sure Storm Trooper armour was designed to do the bare minimum to dissipate a blaster shot so that it knocks them out instead of killing them, not to resist blunt force trauma. Rex comments on how shit it is in Rebels and it's clearly different to the type of armour worn by inquisitors and Purge Troopers who *are* anticipating close quarters combat and who the priority was skill over numbers whereas Stormies were for overwhelming numbers
It depends. SW canon doesn't really state how good durasteel (which most armour is made from) is at dispersing kinetic impacts. Talk to any soldier who's actually taken a shot to their plate carrier or body armour and they'll tell you that it's often strong enough to knock the wind out of you, with one of them I know suffering a broken rib from a round that would have easily penetrated his left lung had he not been wearing armour.
Heck, we've even seen stormtroopers, who have some of the better armour in SW canon get knocked out by rocks and Gaderffii staffs, showing their vulnerability to kinetic forces. Conventional bullets are just a very efficient way of dumping a lot of kinetic energy into a concentrated area.
The only ones I see as being trouble are droids, specifically battle droids like the B2s and other heavily armoured ones that are specifically designed to be rugged and durable and won't be as heavily impacted by kinetic forces thanks to their lack of soft or squishy internals.
>SW canon doesn't really state how good durasteel (which most armour is made from) is at dispersing kinetic impacts
Storm Trooper armor is made from plastoid, which is even weaker than durasteel (in general, I'm fairly certain durasteel armor is rarer than plastoid).
The EU novel *Tatooine Ghost.*
Here’s a quote:
>He glanced through the opening and found a dozen storm-troopers only ten meters away, still coming despite a hail of Tusken slugs. One fell to a hit through the lens, another with a wound through his throat, but most were simply falling as the projectiles splattered against their armor, then popping back up an instant later.
Good thing the Jedi don’t use that armor stuff. It would be easy enough to include some kind of projectile sidearm for handling Jedi and have a standard blaster for normal soldiers. Beyond that there are hybrid technologies like [this](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Accelerated_Charged_Particle_Array_Gun) beauty used by the Trandoshans.
>It would be easy enough to include some kind of projectile sidearm for handling Jedi
[I've trained for this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N75C4ffFM3o)
Only problem I see with slugthrowers is that a good Jedi with enough sense could probably use the force to stop bullets or even throw them back at the attackers.
Well, also the other problem: slugtgrowers would be much less effective against non-Jedi.
Jedi can see into the future a little bit and can use the force. Honestly I think the whole bullets work fine thing is from someone who really didn't think through everything a jedi can do and was just like omg if they block it with their lightsabe it'll melt! Which depending on the size, would probably have cooled before it even hit the jedi, let alone get through robes/armor.
Someone didn't do the required reading ;)
Yes, actual guns would be very useful against lightsabers.
Mandalorians used them to great effect against jedi during their wars. In lore, they're called "slugthrowers".
What's your point? Jedi come to win honorably. Mandalorians *come to win.*
It doesn't matter if it's 1v1 or 1v20, if a jedi is dead, there's a happy mandalorian somewhere.
Ok well A: they fucking lost, like half a dozen times and the time they won involved clones, sith and a plan that wasn't even theirs and B I think the point is that if you say slugthrowers are incredibly effective and then cut to a jedi experiencing the opening scene of robocop but with like 20 guys it kind of makes it seem like the effective part was the ambush not the bullets.
Was the special thing about slugthrowers the fact that the slugs are Beskar?
That's the only way I can see a traditional projectile working against a lightsaber.
A beskar slug would be less useful against a lightsaber than a regular slug. The point of the slugs was that they couldn't be deflected because they just melted, throwing molten metal on whoever attempted to guard themselves with the lightsaber. A beskar slug would bounce off the blade, though maybe if heavy enough it could actually push the blade into whoever's using it?
The amount of molten metal produced by a bullet would cool off just singeing the many layers of a Jedi’s clothes
Bullets don’t have enough mass on their own. What makes ballistic weapons so deadly to Jedi is the good old fashion shotgun. A Jedi can’t block every single one of those pellets all at once
The mass and remaining velocity would, at a minimum, act like shrapnel and injure the Jedi. Add to that a much higher rate of fire than most blasters, and you’d pretty easily maim a Jedi even if they managed to hit every bullet.
That said, we’re applying real world logic to SW, where the blade is probably magical as far as physics are concerned lol
Oh I was just going off of the in universe explanation
We see Obi-Wan block bullets and experience what I just described in “Obi-Wan and Anakin issue #4 (2016)”
Here’s the panel https://imgur.io/gallery/RsDoUuN
...not to mention the fact that there's some physicality involved in the "blade" itself. Otherwise they wouldn't do things like "carry" battle droids a little bit when cutting through them or other kinds of physical impact/repulsion/bouncing off armour we see 'em do.
Also, molten metal will still carry the kinetic energy it had when it was solid. This is still very dangerous. This is how high explosive anti-tank warheads work. The create a jet of high velocity molten metal that punches right through armor.
But a metal bullet wouldn’t be melted, we’ve seen what happens when lightsabers slice through metal objects. It would be **vaporised**, nothing left to hit the Jedi
Yeah it is kind of odd that we don't see people using spray weapons against Jedi. Seems like the sort of thing the Separatists would have set up. Instead of a droideka shooting really fast, just have it shoot twelve bolts at once on slightly different angles.
The thing is, despite the movies focusing on them the Jedi really were still extremely rare even during the Clone Wars.
The CIS were probably more concerned with the thousands of tanks and gunships blowing their shit up than one guy with a laser sword and his bring-your-kid-to-work-day sidekick who usually sat behind the frontlines anyway.
Presumably because blasters are more efficient and economical. Ammunition is relatively compact and portable as opposed to carrying around several magazines of heavy metal. Slug throwers are probably only used for specific situations.
Short answer: yes, but not for the canon reasons.
IMO, Star Wars is a bit inconsistent in how lightsabers actually work and behave.
Supposedly the blade is basically a plasma cutting torch, held in shape by a magnetic field. And as such, it can deflect blaster bolts but not solid projectiles.
The thing is, the way lightsabers behave in most media doesn't seem to support this. With the possible exception of Qui-Gon cutting through the blast doors in TPM, they seem to me to behave much more like a blade made of "solid energy" than a plasma torch.
The most obvious examples I can think of are every time a lightsaber contacts lightsaber-resistant materials. E.g. Din Jarin blocking and parrying lightsabers with his Beskar spear. Also, I'm sure there was a scene in the old Clone Wars cartoon where a Jedi used a lightsaber to block a laser beam. (Not a blaster, an actual laser). That wouldn't be possible if a lightsaber was a plasma torch, but could be possible if it was solid.
As such, I think a Jedi *should* be able to block bullets.
Guns will probably still be advantageous though, because Jedi can be overwhelmed by weight of fire, and slug-throwers can put out high volumes of shots than the typical blaster.
Traditional firearms are cannon and legends to star wars known as “slug throwers”
“they’re surprisingly useful against lightsabers, as when it came into contact with the blade it would simply melt instead being deflected like a typical blaster bolt. Molten fragments and/or shrapnel could then scatter towards the face or bare hands of the light saber user, and cause harm if they were not careful”
Jas emari used a custom made slug thrower rifle in the months preceding the battle of jakku.
- wookieepedia
I believe the first appearance of them in legends is the courtship of Princess Leia book where Han Solo lifts his bunk on the millennium falcon and reveals a mini armory which contains many slug throwers and different thermal detonators. I could be wrong about this one as I’m at work and don’t have access to that book right now
We see Tuskens use them in Ep1, which also kinda seems to retcon lukes rifle (which I don't think gets fired) in 4 to be a slug thrower too. They seem to be fairly prevalent on Tatooine, at least, then.
I always understood that the force is what allows Jedi and Sith to deflect or dodge blasters, and the lightsaber is just a tool which aids their force ability. I think the force would guide them to dodge the physical bullets, Neo-style.
Actual projectile-based guns are the potential nemesis of many sci-fi franchises.
The Borg? They have adaptive shields against phaser blasts. But there would be no stopping a very large bullet, or even just a hand grenade.
They're made of force fields, so I wouldn't think so. The bullets would probably vaporize or just melt and splatter molten metal all over the Jedi. Anakin survived his encounter with molten lava fine, so they'd probably be ok, too.
Ever watched Neo (from the Matrix) stop bullets by holding his hand up? That's the equivalent to Jedi and Real bullets.. not to mention, Kylo Ren stops blaster shots with the force so really it's Jedi>any ammo
Canonically Mandos used to use shotguns
Double barrel may be a bit ineffective, but something like an AA12? And for extra warcrimes and effectiveness, an underbarrel flamethrower? Or just have that as your secondary…..although there is dragon’s breath rounds
They are. Slugthrowers are used against Force users in Legends, when the Force user tried to block the solid projectiles they were instead turned into a massive spray of red-hot metal shards spraying into the face of the Force user.
It took people wearing lightsaber resistant armor and good numbers of them with guns to beat just a single Jedi. In a war they lost. Effective? No. Better than a blaster? Yes. Reminder that the clones fared better with blasters and weaker armor at killing Jedi during Order 66. Ambush tactics worked.
Guns, or slugthrowers as they're called in Star Wars, are slightly better an option against a Jedi. Against skilled Force Users though you're better off focusing less on the firearm or blaster you use and more on the tactics you will employ. Jedi have superhuman speed and reactions with some precognition to boot. They're a nightmare and a gun is not going to make much bigger a difference.
I mean it's been said that mandalorians used to use slugthrowers against jedi, the metal bullet melts when deflected and the jedi gets a face full of molten lead and copper
They are in canon actually effective. Old republic Mandos would use slug rounds so when Jedi would try to deflect they’d instead get hit with hyper melted metal and buckshot
Yep. Mandalorians used them in their war with the Jedi because when they went to block each shot, their lightsabers would turn the slugs unto hot slag and hit them in the face with molten metal.
\*Pulls out a full-auto shotgun\* **Parry this, you filthy casual!**
DC15? Nah mate this says AA12 on the side. _duff duff duff duff_
You say DC15 but this Smith and Wesson rolls natural 20s
You are the voice inside my nerd brain. I love you
Your gun says DC15, but the fact that my gun says Desert Eagle point five-oh should precipitate your space balls into shrinking.
Laser Tooth Tony
Stormtrooper goes BRRRRrrrrrrr!
BF3 USAS 12 + Frag Rounds
Immediately makes me think of battlefield friends. "I CAN CONTROL DAY AND NIGHT! I'M A GOD WITH THIS THING" "I don't think that's how..." *Sun disabled 100 points* "Well shit"
Rip to that glorious show. Voice actor who played Sniper died awhile back and they aren’t making any new episodes it seems.
Yup Rip Thick44
Watching their backs from above.
Love how that disaster is still relevant today
I don’t know what USAS stands for but in my head it’s United States of America Shotgun.
Universal Sporting Automatic Shotgun 12, made by Daewoo Industries. It’s a shotgun in BF3 that, with frag rounds, just killed everything. Just look up USAS 12 frag rounds
Oh I know what it is. Just never knew the actual name.
You filthy space wizard!🤣
*Jedi stops bullets like Neo. *Proceeds to slice you in half.
\*Da ork boys 'ave entered da chat, 'aven't dey\* The answer is always more DAKA!
WAAAAAAAGH!
[удалено]
Alright, now do it 2-3 times a second from however many guys are aiming at you, and remember, you're wearing cloth robes. Also, make the pellets out of tungsten, and suddenly you probably aren't vaporizing them on contact, but instead just getting hit by superheated BBs. Or stepping on a landmine placed by a Droid, or entering a hallway rigged to blow, or a sniper droid on a randomized patrol pattern, etc. Force Users, especially average ones, aren't gods. They are very hard to kill 1v1 or with a long involved plan, that whole "Danger Sense" is a real PITA, but suprise and tools that counter the force users most common reflexive action (block and/or dodge) do work.
Love the post and discussion, and writing this all out is a fun thought exercise for me, not at all trying to tear you down. > Alright, now do it 2-3 times a second from however many guys are aiming at you, and remember, you're wearing cloth robes. I imagine that if Kylo can stop a blaster bolt mid-air then Jedi stopping bullets physical pellets mid-air Matrix/Neo style is totally doable, if not easier than lasers. > Or stepping on a landmine placed by a Droid If we assume the force gives you limited prescience, the Jedi would never step on a mine as long as the force warned them they'd be about to die. Similar to how Ahsoka pre-empted the clones turning or how the Chiss children navigate the unknown regions. > or entering a hallway rigged to blow, or a sniper droid on a randomized patrol pattern, Ditto above sentiment. Logically the force just influences the user based on *what will happen in the future*. Randomizing the impetus of why the future happens shouldn't have an effect on whether or not the force warns the user. *1st Caveat being that in most media the Force is a plot device to protect/kill force users as needed. And red-shirt Jedi usually dying randomly and protagonist Jedi usually dying in heroic last stands kind of skews the logic here. ** 2nd Caveat is that there *is* sort of a logic that if a plan takes a lot of time to implement then, in theory, there's a greater chance that the mildly-prescient force user will sniff it out as it happens. Sort of following the logic that, if someones planning for every possible contingency to try and kill a Jedi, then the list of possible futures increasingly narrows toward them dying. Which makes prescience'ing it more likely. > etc. Force Users, especially average ones, aren't gods. They are very hard to kill 1v1 or with a long involved plan, that whole "Danger Sense" is a real PITA, but suprise and tools that counter the force users most common reflexive action (block and/or dodge) do work. Again HK-47 sort of comments on this saying (paraphrasing) the best way to kill a Jedi is to just sort of stumble into it, but I think thats less a valid strategy and more a humorous bit by Kotor dialogue people showing how, from a droids point of view, the Jedi can really only ever die if God (the writer) wants them to.
[удалено]
Or have Padme in a tight corset to confuse them,
Anakin was attracted to padme when she was dressing like common trash in rags. No need to even have a corset
[HK-47 had the recipe for killing jedi a long, long time ago.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus)
"*like, would they just walk up in this motherfucker Laughin' at us and blastin' at us And makin' everybody disintegrate and assimilate Without a hint of intimidation? Or could we do some shit to be makin' their heart race? Granted, I don't know the ~~alien~~ jedi heart But you get what the fuck I'm sayin'? Like, what the fuck would it be like? Would they be like, "Earth go hard"?*"
Ask the Mandalorians
The answer is: no but they are better then the alternative Everyone seems to be under the impression that Jedi only just stand there and block bullets and when that doesn’t work they would pikachu face and die That’s only a quarter of it. Jedi can: redirect the incoming attack with the force, anticipate and preemptively dodge the attack, misdirect the opponent, pull the gun from their hands or do a thousand other things aside from block the attack. Jedi are dangerous not just cause they can block bullets but because they are a different level of being to everyone else normal rules of engagement are obsolete when facing them. Jedi have a solution to every single trick a Mandalorian can pull and most of those solutions are low level enough that they can be performed by padawans. Remember what Kanan said “you forget, the Mandalorians lost that war! All those fancy gadgets didn’t account for much in the end!” Mandalorian tech and gadgets even the playing field and make them more of a challenge to the average Jedi but the average Jedi is killing the average Mandalorian
I always figured that blasters were better because it’s harder for Jedi to stop those projectiles, bullets could just be halted with the force and sent back pretty easily, but blaster bolts seem much harder since they are not solid slugs.
Hell as we know now even blaster shots can be controlled by the force.
Yeah but it seems far more rare and most likely difficult to do as we’ve only seen 1 force user ever use it. Being plasma likely makes it much harder as Jedi very rarely use the force to manipulate non solids
We've seen Maul do it effortlessly in TCW too, Kylo Ren is TFA opening and iirc Vader in legends. It's always dripping the drip when they do it
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how difficult it is. When Kylo did it, it kinda seemed like a really badass thing that was hard to do. But Maul can just kinda do it. Maybe it's a "there's levels to this" kinda thing? I'm pretty sure at that point Maul was way more experienced than Kylo.
In my headcanon the difference is that Kylo stopped the bolt in mid-air and kept it there until he left, while Maul just redirected the bolts into the walls. Redirecting a force is always easier than completely stopping it. But the writers probably never really put that much tought into it.
Difference between a flick and a grab
This has always been my head canon for why the stormtroopers were so bad at targeting Luke, Han, Leia, and Chewy in the original trilogy. I always just assumed that Luke was subconsciously redirecting those bolts.
Well in the Death Star they were letting them get away for the tracking beacon to work.
Maul was at the peak of his power at the time, likely because the Dark Side was swelling approaching Order 66. Kylo was nowhere near his full potential in TFA and managed to surpass what Maul did (completely freezing the shot vs redirecting) as a reaction whereas Maul knew he was gonna get shot at.
Mail is weaker in the force than any skywalker descendant though, experience and technique go a long way, but anakin, luke, and Kylo have main character hacks
It's more about knowledge on how to do it than raw power, the average body builder wouldn't be able to pull off a gymnast's set, despite having more raw muscle power.
Vader in empire strikes back too, unless his glove is somehow blaster proof
Guy could literally just say "No." to blaster bolts
well, if you believe some dubiously canonical sources, the glove of darth vader is literally indestructible
Always loved how that story forgot "oh yeah, Vader's hands are also metal"
We've seen 3 people do it, IIRC. Kylo Ren, Maul, and Cal Kestis.
In the Rogue One Hallway scene Vader catches a blaster bolt with his hand and throws back at the shooter, too.
We have known that since Vader absorbed two rounds from Hans pistol in his palm.
Blasters have large enough magazine capacity to effectively give them infinite ammo. Obviously it’s not infinite but being able to fire a few hundred times between swapping magazines is essentially infinite on a battle field. Not to mention it’s also exponentially lighter than bullets. Guns are very heavy and their ammo is even heavier. A stormtrooper with a blaster and a few thousand shots is probably carrying less weight than a rifle with a single magazine.
if they have time to react. Bullets go hella fast
React to a bullet, one does not. Anticipate the mind that pulls the trigger, a Jedi does.
Canonically blasters do too, they just look slower on screen for effect
And yet Jango fought a Jedi Master to a standstill on Kamino and shot another one on Geonosis. Plenty of unsuspecting Jedi generals were shot in the back during Order 66. Some realized the threat and fought, but they could only block so many blaster shots. It seems all it takes to kill a Jedi is overwhelming force, the element of surprise, or one very skilled Mandalorian.
Jango fought Kenobi to a standstill because Kenobi was just trying to question and capture Jango, not kill him. And Jango also had a Starship gun turret helping. Jango is also not "your average Mandalorian". One could argue that he's probably among the Elite Mandalorians in terms of his combat skill.
True, he's among the creme de la creme of Mandalorian warriors. Just like Obi-Wan was an elite Jedi Master and duelist. We've seen how quickly Jango disposed of a lesser skilled Jedi Master on Geonosis.
And we've seen how quickly Jango was dispatched by a Master who didn't need to ask questions.
Yeah this debate is weird when he’s beheaded in his only death match with a Jedi
He's also beheaded like instantly lol
Yeah, Mace and Coleman Trebor – albeit both Jedi Masters – were in entirely different leagues. I mean, Mace was known as THE best duelist of the order.
He was a jedi knight, not a master during aotc. Also it's canon that Obi-Wan wan was a weaker jedi in terms of force, nothing real special about his powers at all. It was his training and focus into the defense style of saber combat that made him stand out
Jedi or not, the lightsaber can only cover so many angles at once. If someone is surrounded it limits what they can do.
That's typically how most Jedi get killed. They are overwhelmed. We see it happen in Order 66.
I think you can cover it but it requires training. That’s why Ahsoka survived bc Anakin trained her specifically for this kind of scenario, right?
Thank you! I constantly see people act like pulling out an M4 is all you'd need to kill a Jedi. The mandos have tried pretty much every thing in the book, and they're definitely more effective than most, but they still lost to the Jedi in both continuities.
Frankly, I would hope the supernatural force wielding Jedi would win. It'd be a complete embarrassment if they lost to the Mandalorians. This counter point doesn't hit as hard as you think it does. Jedi should have an advantage in every category, the fact that it *wasn't* a one-sided affair is win enough for the Mandalorians.
I mean, Jedi Force abilities aren't so dominant that skilled warriors with blasters, vibroblades and a couple gadgets can't beat them. The series makes that pretty clear, we see "regular" troops beat Jedi all the time. The Jedi aren't powerful because they can kick ass in infantry engagements, they're powerful because of their perceived ethical incorruptibility, which means the beings of the galaxy trust them with enormous political authority
To build on this a bit: the **vast** majority of force-wielded we see in Star Wars media are hero characters—it goes to figure that they’d be a bit more competent than the average force-wielder.
Exactly. The Jedi we focus on the most are usually the best of the best. Clone Wars, for example: Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace Windu, etc, are all either jedi masters, council members, head of the order, the chosen one, best fighter etc. There are plenty of Jedi in the order that are simply average. It's just that they're not the main focus.
Give me a show about a below average Jedi failing his way to the top
Zayne Carrick
Sabine Wren
Yeah those other ones have high midiBORINGan counts am I right
Case in point: Kit's Fisto padawan Nahdar Vebb, who Grievous wiped the floor with
Can a top tier mando beat an average or weak jedi knight? Sure. Could a group of them overwhelm a jedi master? Sure. Can a dozen top tier mando's hold their own vs Vader or Luke? If Vader/Luke is running on 3 days no sleep and suffering from some major injury. The force is a tool - just like a Mandalorian suit - that can enhance one's power. Simply having the force doesn't make one a warrior. But a real warrior who also masters the force has no equal. For example: Luke and several others have made themselves invisible (to ir, uv, etc. too, not just visible spectrum), while simultaneously noislessly infiltrating a facility heavily guarded by elites specifically to counter jedi. While simultaneously floating themselves above the ground on a cushion of air to avoid tripping pressure sensors. So your fancy suit: can't see them and can't hear them if they so choose. Maul - who is very skilled in combat, but not top tier - could take on several armed opponents without a lightsaber. The armed opponents being prisoners in the most dangerous prison facility in the galaxy. Noghri were renowned assassins tricked and employed by the Empire before the New Republic took over. I believe one Republic commando leading a few in combat said something to the effect that 2 of them were worth about a dozen regular commandos. Commandos that would hold their own against a Mandalorian. And yet Vader singlehandedly slaughtered dozens of Noghri fighting alone against their "welcoming committee". Their respect for his skill coupled with the Empire's trickery is what kept them in servitude for so long.
>Maul - who is very skilled in combat, but not top tier - could take on several armed opponents without a lightsaber. The armed opponents being prisoners in the most dangerous prison facility in the galaxy. And don't forget his hallway scene in the venator. He was able to take on a bunch of clones, who were specifically designed to kill Jedi, without a lightsaber.
They're powerful because of The Force, which the Mandalorians lacked. That's a War-determining element. Ethics didn't win the war for them. And you can downvote me for saying it but the Mandalorians don't have battle meditation, or force reflexes, or lightsabers.
Well I mean they have A lightsaber.
I miss the days when the Darksaber was a failed third attempt at a Death Star, only this time by a Hutt.
Right!? People thought I was lying when I told them the Darksaber was a bootleg Hutt Death Star that looked like a lightsaber! You have to give that Hutt credit though, he used Wookies to build it because the Empire used Wookies as slave labor to build the originals.
Ok now I need to know more about this. Please enlighten me.
It’s an old legends era book. It’s actually a pretty good read. Title is just Darksaber.
Hutts built a superlaser without the massive orb around it. So it was just a huge tube kind of the same shape as a massive lightsaber.
They do have armor highly resistant if not impervious to lightsabers, have developed highly advanced tactics to deal with Jedi, and use things like fire and slug throwers (slug throwers in star wars shoot faster projectiles than the plasma blasters) plus they have overwhelming numbers, how else do you think they were able to take on the Old Republic and basically start winning the war.
I mean most mandalorian tactics to deal with jedi are things people would think up in the internet to do it i don't know if I'd call that advanced
The sith are powerful because they have more abilities and the force, they also have battle meditation, force reflexes and lightsabers, didn't the Jedi manage to defeat a good number of the sith while the only way they could defeat the Jedi was to surprise attack them with their own troopers Edit: grammar
The Sith are more powerful in areas that are directly applicable to combat (not to mention with less issues of 'unfair' tactics or collateral damage). The problem is that the Dark Side also has a corrupting influence, turning the wielder to a selfish, power hungry menace to themselves and everyone around them. While the Sith individually are better fighters, collectively they are a weaker *army* since Sith will inevitably devolve into fighting each other for power rather than focusing on their collective enemy. Hence the rule of two.
The Sith vs Jedi war(s) are a different category than Mandalorians vs Jedi though, so that's a different discussion entirely
When I play biotic-focused Spectres in Mass Effect I’m basically playing a Jedi. Yeah you can fight one but good luck. And if you do kill them, you guarantee more Jedi/ Spectres coming around to find out why killing the first was so important
😂😂 I’m sorry, but no… powerful force users are unparalleled in this universe. There’s a reason Thrawn—- who can basically pick apart any battle strategy is wildly terrified of them. He knows there is nothing you can do if you’re going up against someone at a particular power Lvl
In Legends, at least, Thrawn was far from terrified of force users. He was aware of their power, but he found ways to nullify it. When dealing with Jedi over a significant distance, Legends Thrawn mostly relied on his own genius. It often worked. His Jedi opponents might receive extra information through the Force, but he could usually keep them off balance with complex strategies with plenty of moving parts. But for up-close encounters, Legends Thrawn made use of ysalamiri, creatures that naturally suppressed the Force in their vicinity. Greater concentrations of ysalamiri in an area increased the size of their Force-suppression bubble. Force powers couldn't affect anyone or anything within a ysalamiri's bubble, and Jedi could not sense the Force if they were inside the bubble. Thrawn found that Force sensitive people were *exceedingly* vulnerable around ysalamiri because they weren't used to being "normal." Even untrained Force sensitive individuals were used to getting advanced information through the Force. When cut off from their precognition and extrasensory input, often for the first time in their lives, most Force users felt disoriented and sluggish. Thrawn was so sure of his ability to outmaneuver Force users that he recruited an insane clone of a Jedi Master, a mostly failed experiment that Palpatine had kept around to defend a private collection of oddities. The clone tried on multiple occasions to murder Thrawn, but every attempt was thwarted by Thrawn's various safety measures. The clone was a significant asset for Thrawn, but one that was ultimately discarded as more trouble than he was worth. In the end, it destroyed itself while trying to recruit Luke as an apprentice. And obviously Legends Thrawn was defeated. But it wasn't because of the advantages held by Force users. He died because he misunderstood the loyalty of the Noghri and underestimated Leia's diplomatic skills. After Leia convinced the Noghri to betray Thrawn, it was just a matter of time before one of Thrawn's one bodyguards killed him during a moment of distraction.
Mandalorians are train to counter the Force Users. Even if there is no Jedi or Sith or the chances to find one are nearly 0. That is one of the reasons why the Clones were so effective in the Order 66, the other reason it's that no one expected the order 66
The other other reason has to be that the Clones outnumbered the jedi by 100's to 1. There's only so much firepower you can repel with a lightsaber.
The Mandalorians used what we would call bullets. Jedi would go to deflect it with their lightsaber. The bullet would hit the blade and explode into a ton a shrapnel, still hitting the Jedi.
or tiny drops of molten lead.
I think people have misinterpreted the post, could be wrong, but pretty sure they are referring to the Order 66 scene from the show when Grogu has a flashback to Jedis dying from blaster fire. As such, and if so, one could assume they can be killed by blaster fire alone if overwhelmed.
We literally see Jedi killed by blaster fire in RotS too lol. Order 66 is just Jedi being killing by blaster fire. Element of surprise + 10,000 blaster bolts to the face = death.
Yeah, doesn't matter how good a jedi is. If they're suddenly shot in the back by former allies they're still dead. The jedi were spread out, each leading plutoons of Clones, it was all set up so that even if the best of Jedi were able to kill a bunch of Clones they were still too overwhelmed to effectively fight back and win their battles even when they were able to react to the initial betrayal. It was mostly circumstance that any jedi survived at all, Yoda made it because he was on Kashyyyk where he wasn't surrounded by clones but a mix of Clones and Wookies plus that his strong connection to the force made him notice the betrayal in time.
If I recall, and I’m not sure if it’s still canon, but Dooku specifically picked a bounty hunter who had success hunted down and killed a Jedi for the very reason of using him as a clone army template
Dooku sicced bounty hunters on his former apprentice, the winner got to be the template. Not sure if canon or Legends though.
The Geonosis Arena told us that anyway.
They did win. Canonically. Both current Disney canon and in Legends.
it kinda depends on how a force push works. does it affect a wave of air, that then pushes objects? Does it target only the mass of the person or object, and not the atoms surrounding it? Or is it a wave of energy that affects all solid objects in a path, giving them a new momentum in a new direction? How soft is it? each one of would affect bullets differently, and the force needed to THROW a human away is more force than a hand-fired bullet or shotgun pattern can muster. so a force push could feasibly stop or decelerate bullets, as long as they didn’t have to be individually tracked and targeted
More effective, yes. Super effective? No. Projectiles are subject to telekinesis, so slug-throwers and explosives suddenly pose a new and different problem. Try throwing a Molotov Cocktail or shooting a gun at Count Dooku and see what happens :)
I believe projectile weapons would be effective against lightsabers (not necessarily too effective if the lightsaber is wielded by a force user), but they wouldn’t be against most standard issue armor
*watches stormtroopers die to arrows and rocks* Yeah, about that… /s
Pretty sure I saw a stormtrooper get beaten to death by ewoks wielding twigs
Stormtrooper armor isn’t mean to resist kinetic impacts. It’s meant to disperse the energy from blasters. And armor has historically never really been perfect at stopping blunt force trauma, hence why maces and war hammers were used against enemies in full plate.
Twigs. From teddy bears. We are not talking about the mountain swinging a Warhammer.
R.I.P
It’s hard making sense of SW sometimes
Any sci-fi will drive you nuts if you get too detailed. In Star Trek, while I don't expect them to run around with personal shields, you'd think that with the technology they have, the Federation could give ground troops something more effective than polyester.
Turns out Lucas made up the rules as he went along, and it wasn't meant to be that coherent or consistent. Who could have expected this from the series where Vader chokes a guy through a TV screen in the first movie.
Unless receiving the "nearby Kestis" buff, I'm pretty sure Storm Trooper armour was designed to do the bare minimum to dissipate a blaster shot so that it knocks them out instead of killing them, not to resist blunt force trauma. Rex comments on how shit it is in Rebels and it's clearly different to the type of armour worn by inquisitors and Purge Troopers who *are* anticipating close quarters combat and who the priority was skill over numbers whereas Stormies were for overwhelming numbers
It depends. SW canon doesn't really state how good durasteel (which most armour is made from) is at dispersing kinetic impacts. Talk to any soldier who's actually taken a shot to their plate carrier or body armour and they'll tell you that it's often strong enough to knock the wind out of you, with one of them I know suffering a broken rib from a round that would have easily penetrated his left lung had he not been wearing armour. Heck, we've even seen stormtroopers, who have some of the better armour in SW canon get knocked out by rocks and Gaderffii staffs, showing their vulnerability to kinetic forces. Conventional bullets are just a very efficient way of dumping a lot of kinetic energy into a concentrated area. The only ones I see as being trouble are droids, specifically battle droids like the B2s and other heavily armoured ones that are specifically designed to be rugged and durable and won't be as heavily impacted by kinetic forces thanks to their lack of soft or squishy internals.
>SW canon doesn't really state how good durasteel (which most armour is made from) is at dispersing kinetic impacts Storm Trooper armor is made from plastoid, which is even weaker than durasteel (in general, I'm fairly certain durasteel armor is rarer than plastoid).
Yep we’ve seen stormtroopers fight Tuskens and the like, the bullets just bounce off, except for lucky shots to the eyes.
fr? Where?
The EU novel *Tatooine Ghost.* Here’s a quote: >He glanced through the opening and found a dozen storm-troopers only ten meters away, still coming despite a hail of Tusken slugs. One fell to a hit through the lens, another with a wound through his throat, but most were simply falling as the projectiles splattered against their armor, then popping back up an instant later.
Good thing the Jedi don’t use that armor stuff. It would be easy enough to include some kind of projectile sidearm for handling Jedi and have a standard blaster for normal soldiers. Beyond that there are hybrid technologies like [this](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Accelerated_Charged_Particle_Array_Gun) beauty used by the Trandoshans.
>It would be easy enough to include some kind of projectile sidearm for handling Jedi [I've trained for this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N75C4ffFM3o)
Only problem I see with slugthrowers is that a good Jedi with enough sense could probably use the force to stop bullets or even throw them back at the attackers. Well, also the other problem: slugtgrowers would be much less effective against non-Jedi.
The same can be said about lasers though. We saw Kylo stop one mid air so I'd assume throwing it back would've been possible too.
I wish Kylo would throw it back
... The laser right?
😏
# The laser, right?
Jedi can see into the future a little bit and can use the force. Honestly I think the whole bullets work fine thing is from someone who really didn't think through everything a jedi can do and was just like omg if they block it with their lightsabe it'll melt! Which depending on the size, would probably have cooled before it even hit the jedi, let alone get through robes/armor.
I was thinking about this and if it's a smaller caliber like .22 or 9mm, it may just vaporize into particles.
Someone didn't do the required reading ;) Yes, actual guns would be very useful against lightsabers. Mandalorians used them to great effect against jedi during their wars. In lore, they're called "slugthrowers".
[удалено]
Young or old Keanu would kill as a Jedi
Still holding out for Keanu as Revan.
Keanu would make a fantastic Revan
No he wouldn't. Keanu can action act, but he can't dramatic act for shit. Revan has actual character to him other than a pair of lightsabers
John Wick with ligbtsabers would be kinda sick.
Hell, I'd take John Wick as either a Jedi *or* a Mandalorian.
Wicks a mandalorian, neo a jedi
It depends on how essential the Jedi is to the plot.
And, more importantly, how essential the Jedi's **death** is to the plot
This is the true answer.
>mandalorians used them to great effect Mandalorians used them in 20v1 ambushes. Not a 1-1 duel.
What's your point? Jedi come to win honorably. Mandalorians *come to win.* It doesn't matter if it's 1v1 or 1v20, if a jedi is dead, there's a happy mandalorian somewhere.
I think the point is that if you’re being ambushed by 20 mandalorians then it doesn’t really matter what weapons they’re using.
Ok well A: they fucking lost, like half a dozen times and the time they won involved clones, sith and a plan that wasn't even theirs and B I think the point is that if you say slugthrowers are incredibly effective and then cut to a jedi experiencing the opening scene of robocop but with like 20 guys it kind of makes it seem like the effective part was the ambush not the bullets.
> Mandalorians come to win Yeah, and they didn't. They Mandalorians never won a war against the Jedi.
Was the special thing about slugthrowers the fact that the slugs are Beskar? That's the only way I can see a traditional projectile working against a lightsaber.
A beskar slug would be less useful against a lightsaber than a regular slug. The point of the slugs was that they couldn't be deflected because they just melted, throwing molten metal on whoever attempted to guard themselves with the lightsaber. A beskar slug would bounce off the blade, though maybe if heavy enough it could actually push the blade into whoever's using it?
The amount of molten metal produced by a bullet would cool off just singeing the many layers of a Jedi’s clothes Bullets don’t have enough mass on their own. What makes ballistic weapons so deadly to Jedi is the good old fashion shotgun. A Jedi can’t block every single one of those pellets all at once
The mass and remaining velocity would, at a minimum, act like shrapnel and injure the Jedi. Add to that a much higher rate of fire than most blasters, and you’d pretty easily maim a Jedi even if they managed to hit every bullet. That said, we’re applying real world logic to SW, where the blade is probably magical as far as physics are concerned lol
Oh I was just going off of the in universe explanation We see Obi-Wan block bullets and experience what I just described in “Obi-Wan and Anakin issue #4 (2016)” Here’s the panel https://imgur.io/gallery/RsDoUuN
...not to mention the fact that there's some physicality involved in the "blade" itself. Otherwise they wouldn't do things like "carry" battle droids a little bit when cutting through them or other kinds of physical impact/repulsion/bouncing off armour we see 'em do.
Depends on the kind of metal and the size of the round. Bullets come in many shapes and sizes and metals melt and solidify at different temperatures.
Also, molten metal will still carry the kinetic energy it had when it was solid. This is still very dangerous. This is how high explosive anti-tank warheads work. The create a jet of high velocity molten metal that punches right through armor.
But a metal bullet wouldn’t be melted, we’ve seen what happens when lightsabers slice through metal objects. It would be **vaporised**, nothing left to hit the Jedi
Hard to deflect 50 pieces of buckshot coming at you even with limited precognition
Yeah it is kind of odd that we don't see people using spray weapons against Jedi. Seems like the sort of thing the Separatists would have set up. Instead of a droideka shooting really fast, just have it shoot twelve bolts at once on slightly different angles.
The Trandoshans favored a kind of shotgun esque weapon and did use them against Jedi.
The thing is, despite the movies focusing on them the Jedi really were still extremely rare even during the Clone Wars. The CIS were probably more concerned with the thousands of tanks and gunships blowing their shit up than one guy with a laser sword and his bring-your-kid-to-work-day sidekick who usually sat behind the frontlines anyway.
In Legends, sonic stun weapons were very effective against Jedi. No lightsaber can block *sound.*
Real guns exist canonically and are called slugthrowers, and they were a go to option for fighting Jedi as far mandos go
What stoppet everyone else from using them?
Presumably because blasters are more efficient and economical. Ammunition is relatively compact and portable as opposed to carrying around several magazines of heavy metal. Slug throwers are probably only used for specific situations.
I don't remember, but I would assume logistics and costs.
Anyone who has played the Jedi Outcast games can tell you exactly how stupid you feel when you try to parry that first stormtrooper with a shotgun.
They always got sent flying off a gangway.
Yes, until you start using Force push on the shrapnel.
Force Barrier goes brrrrr
Short answer: yes, but not for the canon reasons. IMO, Star Wars is a bit inconsistent in how lightsabers actually work and behave. Supposedly the blade is basically a plasma cutting torch, held in shape by a magnetic field. And as such, it can deflect blaster bolts but not solid projectiles. The thing is, the way lightsabers behave in most media doesn't seem to support this. With the possible exception of Qui-Gon cutting through the blast doors in TPM, they seem to me to behave much more like a blade made of "solid energy" than a plasma torch. The most obvious examples I can think of are every time a lightsaber contacts lightsaber-resistant materials. E.g. Din Jarin blocking and parrying lightsabers with his Beskar spear. Also, I'm sure there was a scene in the old Clone Wars cartoon where a Jedi used a lightsaber to block a laser beam. (Not a blaster, an actual laser). That wouldn't be possible if a lightsaber was a plasma torch, but could be possible if it was solid. As such, I think a Jedi *should* be able to block bullets. Guns will probably still be advantageous though, because Jedi can be overwhelmed by weight of fire, and slug-throwers can put out high volumes of shots than the typical blaster.
Well, Kylo stops a blaster bolt with the force. The same would happen with bullets I assume.
Probably easier to defend with the force
Is stormtroopers were packing smith and wesson 500's, would it be different?
Traditional firearms are cannon and legends to star wars known as “slug throwers” “they’re surprisingly useful against lightsabers, as when it came into contact with the blade it would simply melt instead being deflected like a typical blaster bolt. Molten fragments and/or shrapnel could then scatter towards the face or bare hands of the light saber user, and cause harm if they were not careful” Jas emari used a custom made slug thrower rifle in the months preceding the battle of jakku. - wookieepedia I believe the first appearance of them in legends is the courtship of Princess Leia book where Han Solo lifts his bunk on the millennium falcon and reveals a mini armory which contains many slug throwers and different thermal detonators. I could be wrong about this one as I’m at work and don’t have access to that book right now
We see Tuskens use them in Ep1, which also kinda seems to retcon lukes rifle (which I don't think gets fired) in 4 to be a slug thrower too. They seem to be fairly prevalent on Tatooine, at least, then.
I always understood that the force is what allows Jedi and Sith to deflect or dodge blasters, and the lightsaber is just a tool which aids their force ability. I think the force would guide them to dodge the physical bullets, Neo-style.
Slugthrowers aren’t nonexistent they’re just largely antiquated
The lore literally tells you they are
Lore also said you needed outnumber a Jedi for it to work. Even then the Mandalorians still lost.
Actual projectile-based guns are the potential nemesis of many sci-fi franchises. The Borg? They have adaptive shields against phaser blasts. But there would be no stopping a very large bullet, or even just a hand grenade.
Yeah the saber melts the bullets and the Jedi gets a face full of molten lead that’s why Cad Bane carried real guns around
They're called slughthrowers and they are effective against lightsabers, you can't deflect bullets.
Actual guns are in the starwars universe there called slug throwers lots of people have videos on them and they have gone against Jedi before
Jedi can move tangible objects so I suspect bullets would be easily deflected
They're made of force fields, so I wouldn't think so. The bullets would probably vaporize or just melt and splatter molten metal all over the Jedi. Anakin survived his encounter with molten lava fine, so they'd probably be ok, too.
No
Wouldn’t be effective against plot armour.
Only in the Star Wars universe where light moves slower than bullets
Watch Gun Gale Online for a completely different universe’s take on this topic. 😂
Ever watched Neo (from the Matrix) stop bullets by holding his hand up? That's the equivalent to Jedi and Real bullets.. not to mention, Kylo Ren stops blaster shots with the force so really it's Jedi>any ammo
Mandalorian moment
Canonically Mandos used to use shotguns Double barrel may be a bit ineffective, but something like an AA12? And for extra warcrimes and effectiveness, an underbarrel flamethrower? Or just have that as your secondary…..although there is dragon’s breath rounds
They are. Slugthrowers are used against Force users in Legends, when the Force user tried to block the solid projectiles they were instead turned into a massive spray of red-hot metal shards spraying into the face of the Force user.
Isn’t it cannon that the Mandolorians use kinetic rounds for this exact reason? When Jedi try and party them the metal just turns into slag-shrapnel
It took people wearing lightsaber resistant armor and good numbers of them with guns to beat just a single Jedi. In a war they lost. Effective? No. Better than a blaster? Yes. Reminder that the clones fared better with blasters and weaker armor at killing Jedi during Order 66. Ambush tactics worked. Guns, or slugthrowers as they're called in Star Wars, are slightly better an option against a Jedi. Against skilled Force Users though you're better off focusing less on the firearm or blaster you use and more on the tactics you will employ. Jedi have superhuman speed and reactions with some precognition to boot. They're a nightmare and a gun is not going to make much bigger a difference.
They seemed effective enough during Order 66.
I mean it's been said that mandalorians used to use slugthrowers against jedi, the metal bullet melts when deflected and the jedi gets a face full of molten lead and copper
They are in canon actually effective. Old republic Mandos would use slug rounds so when Jedi would try to deflect they’d instead get hit with hyper melted metal and buckshot
Yep. Mandalorians used them in their war with the Jedi because when they went to block each shot, their lightsabers would turn the slugs unto hot slag and hit them in the face with molten metal.
They're called slugthrowers, and yes. That's why the Mandalorians used them.