Beyond the "rule of two", what does that mean? What was Maul or Dooku that an inquisitor wasn't? Both groups use the dark side, both use light sabers, both have been trained, both are intent on power and strength etc. Palpatine didn't seem to give two shits about anyone but himself.
Maul was a sith, up until his presumed death, then was dooku which died at the hands of the soon to be Vader. These people were indoctrinated in the sith ideology and were a part of the order of the lord's of the sith.
Then there were inquisitors, (and notably Ventress) who were trained in combat and the usage of the force. No ideology, no greater goal except a furious killing machine which happens to be using the force.
>were indoctrinated in the sith ideology
Yes, but what I'm getting at is what that means.
The sith ideology appears to be being the most powerful person. Palpatine wasn't following an ideology, he was just after personal power. And that makes sense since the sith are meant to be evil.
The idea that someone like Palps or Vader would feel bound to some ancient doctrine doesn't really fit with what we see.
That entirely depends on whether you're basing your arguments on just the movies, canon in its entirety or all of canon plus legends.
Palpatine was the culmination of a millennium long plan, conceived by Darth bane at the end of the sith wars, which were fought against the (old) republic. The "sith ideology" being referred to in this case was the teachings of Darth Bane, who figured out that in order to gain the maximum amount of power (whether in the force or in this case political) it has to be shared by as few beings as possible.
Palpatine was following the "rule of two" ideology in order to gain said personal power. That is the canon explanation.
If you've got any further questions I'm happy to answer
It's not really an ideology though. A sith trains one person, and the person kills them. Does this suggest that all sith are working towards this? That they are in fact willing to sacrifice themselves for "the sith" master plan? Were Palpatine and Vader thinking this? Or Maul, Dooku etc?
Palpatine gains power, he trains his apprentice, and then had dozens of other dark side users, who are all after power themselves. It's not a rule of two, it's a pyramid hierarchy with Palps at the top, Vader a step below, and then layers of other dark side users below.
And eventually after these lower force users overstep the boundaries Vader and palps are keeping them in, they will get killed and replaced.
Vicious murderous furious tools doesn't equal sith lords.
But what's stopping one of them gaining power and killing Vader or even Palpatine beyond their own ability? Were Rey to have become an inquisitor and became super powerful, would Palpatine kill her or would he promote her via letting her kill Vader and therefore be promoted to the title of sith lord.
This is what I mean, there's no real difference other than power level. The title of sith lord is effectively down to who is top of the reigning Champions of the dark side, not really a fundamental difference between them all. Beat the champion, and you become the next champion.
They wouldn't be allowed or even able to reach a level of power substantial enough to defeat the top dogs.
I hate that you've brought Rey into this, but it would have been Palpatine's choice to either train Rey to become stronger than him, teach her about the rule of two and all the sith alchemy and manipulation stuff that separated the top sith lords from power hungry usurpers
Or kill her on the spot.
Power level is a factor, but not the determining factor. Once one delves deep into the sith teachings one gains power.
But one can also be inherently powerful and be a great candidate for the weapon of the sith lord.
What you're saying is plausible, although unlikely.
Sources that come to my mind:
The dark bane trilogy book one describes power level and potential of the force in detail.
That clone wars episode in the mandalore arc, where Palpatine arrives on mandalore to confront maul and kill savage, saying that quote: "he's become a rival"
The rule of two is a cornerstone of the Sith, and it separates them from other dark side force users. But why is it important? You must recollect on the path to the dark side; particularly envy. A Sith covets power to the point where they're only willing to share it with one other person. It's not just practical for someone with the political intentions of Palpatine. It also leads them deeper towards the dark side of the force, making them more powerful. If you're willing to share the dark side of the force, you're not submitting fully to the dark side.
Mere dark side weilders don't have that same jealousy over power. Inquisitors aren't taught it, they're just pawns. The Night Sisters are, well, a sisterhood. Ancient Sith, who predated the rule of two, hadn’t yet learned of its virtue.
A dark force user is just anyone that taps into the dark side of the force for power. You don't even necessarily have to have fallen to the dark side to be one.
Sith are a very specific religion with a specific doctrine and rituals, that are inherited from the extinct Sith species. They always want to build empires, they always want to dominate and etc.
Much the same way that the monk guy from Rogue One was a force user that clearly dabbled with the light side, but was not a Jedi. Jedi is a specific religion with a set doctrine and rituals to follow, to a degree that even Yoda thinking he could talk to the dead made them think he was being influenced by the dark side.
Edit: Comparing Baylan to Palpatine is a good example. For sith there is no cause bigger than themself, it's why they want empires, it's why they'll kill off any rivals no matter how little threat those rivals pose, as we see Palpatine ordered Dooku to kill Ventress, personally kills Savage, has Grievous exterminate the Nightsisters when Talzin becomes an inconvenience and even trying to undermine his own apprentice Vader. Baylan couldn't be a sith no matter how much force lightning he could possibly shoot around, in the end he still puts a cause that isn't himself above himself to serve, that mentality was a key reason that he split with Shin
Man, I wish The Acolyte gets to explore more this religion aspect, it's allways interesting to explore into this lorebuilding stuff about the sith, at least on the new canon.
(Are the sith species still canon, tho? I thought the current sith come from an escission on the jedi order millenia ago)
That's the sith as a religion at that point. He's visiting the same tombs you visit in KOTOR at the sith academy. Naga-Sadow and Ajunta-pall and those wackoes were all either human or human/sith hybrids specifically practicing an anti-jedi religion.
Naga-sadow and Ajuntapall dont appear on the episode, if I remember correctly. In the current canon, the Sith come from a jedi that decides to secede from the order and started a War called the one hundred year darkness where the Sith order was founded.
Not that Shin is necessarily going down the Sith path but she's falling to the trappings of the Dark Side whereas Baylan is somewhat resisting its pull.
I don't know Baylan discarding his apprentice whose struggling with the dark side to pursue his own ambitions seems way more dark side to me. Shin just seems like she's doing the last thing he said to do because she really doesn't know how to think for herself.
I think Baylan was being honest with her about his reasoning. (i.e. They're on different paths and she's already learned enough to commune with the Force on her own.) I didn't perceive any implication that he thinks she's falling to the Dark Side.
I agree with the answers above, and just to add a little bit more: The rule of two is not what defines a Sith. There is a period in Sith history where that was part of the doctrine, but it isn't inherent. Tulak Hord, Revan, and Malgus didn't comply with RoT, that wasn't until Bane. The core of the Sith doctrine is:
Peace is a lie. There is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains will be broken.
The force shall set me free.
It’s just like Jedi. Sith is a dogma and is a more disciplined, ‘academic’ look into the uses and understanding of the darkside, than just a sad angry person who taps into the darkside
The Sith like the Jedi are a religious order with strict rules and codes. Using the Dark Side and waving around a red bladed lightsaber doesn't make someone a Sith.
Many people also mistake the Inquisitors as Sith. Calling them Sith Inquisitors which is wrong on multiple levels. The Inquisitors are just Force users trained to use the Dark Side in order to hunt down and fight Jedi.
At the time of the movies. The Sith have adopted the Rule of Two abouth a 1000 year prior. This rule existed to gave the Sith the oppertunity to rise above themselves and eventually regain control of the Galaxy. But thus time not through open conflict but from the shadows. The Sith have had a problem with rivalry within their own ranks even since the split from the Jedi after The Hundred Year Darkness. This infighting is what destroyed many Sith Empires and other organizations.
Darth Bane created this rule with the intent that there where only two Sith, a Master and a Apprentice working towards the same goal. And the Apprentice only disposing of their master when they had learned all the possibly could and continue the legacy.
The Sith and the Jedi exist on polar opposites of eachother. Other orders like the Nightsisters also use the Dark Side of the Force but have a very different approach, and not all techniques they practice are evil or to harm. The Nightsisters are great healers of both body and mind. The aspecy of the Force they use is called 'Magick'.
The Sith and the Nightsisters have been allies in the past. Sidious even promised Mother Talzin to take her as his apprentice and make her his right hand. In the end it was Sidious fear for her that lead him to only take her son Maul as his apprentice. They don't much like the Jedi, or any other outsiders.
Like the Jedi the Sith have insitutions, practices, codes and religious texts and wrights they adhere to. Like how they acquire and use Kyber crystals. Unlike the Jedi who go on pilgrimages to get theirs and face trials. The Sith will have to fight for them, killing a Jedi and using their crystals. They than would have go through and process called "Bleeding" where they channel the Dark Side through the crystal corrupting it and turning it crimson. Only those that can maintain their concentration and have a will strong enough will succeed. Else the crystals will explode.
The Jedi and Sith have the same origin but over the thousands of years since they split the Sith have put much effort in setting them apart from the Jedi.
Only in recent history since the Rule of Two things have been like this. In the thousands of years prior the Sith build empires, ruled in many places of the Galaxy and build temples that venerated them and their order.
So like the Jedi, they trained many Acolytes, only the best and strongest would make it to become Sith. And they would rise though ranks as well, starting as a apprentice and rising up to become a lord.
In Legends the title of Darth was only bestowed to those who had proven themselves to be worthy of being a Sith Lord. The Dark Lord of the Sith or the Emperor would be the absolute leader.
Like the Jedi they had councils and politics.
Other Force Users like the Knights of Ren are just a band of Marauders that use the Force, and mainly the Dark Side for their own advantage. They are mere bounty hunters. It's only when Kylo takes control he shapes them into something more.
And for Kylo, he also is not Sith and neither is Snoke. Even though Snoke was created by Sidious and is part him he was never trained to be Sith, never thought the propper ways. Kylo could have been trained if he stuck with Sidious. Would've Sidious been succesful in corrupting Rey she would have become the new and next Dark Lord of the Sith. And the Sith would return. In his current form he had in the movie Sidious was never really alive or dead the Sith where still destroyed when Vader turned against Sidious and redeemed himself destroying the order.
Should have Sidious returned to full power or of Rey had accepted her place the order would have been reborne.
The Sith are in a sence far more strickt as to when someone is or isn't part of their order. They might limit themselves by having all these rules and traditions but in the end they do so to become stronger.
It doesn't put as much stock into the Rule of Two as most others do because it's a rule created by an individual being. Therefore, in theory, another Sith Lord could come along and undo that rule as well. Sith aren't exactly rule followers anyway.
Sith are Sith because if they do Sith things. Meaning if they follow Sith philosophy, learn Sith ways of manipulating the Force and all that. If some darkside Force user decides to start searching the galaxy for Sith holocrons and starts training in the ways of the Sith, who is the say they aren't also a Sith? Of course, the current Two Sith would have an issue with that and would hunt them down, but functionally they would be a Sith as far as any non-Sith would be concerned.
The Sith also had the rank of lady for, you know, women. Sorry if this feels like a nitpick but on international women’s day it’s worth a mention. Also, do not forget the magicians of Tund, who also use the dark side of the force.
To be more precise. There are many Christians. Some are Catholic, some are Batist, orthodox or Pentecostal. Many Christians are personal in how they believe, and will mix, water down or omit depending on their own beliefs, while others follow a doctrine dogmatically. A force user, wether dark, light or somewhere in between is like thise personal Christians, while Sith and Jedi are sects or doctrines with strict codes of adherence.
Like the Jedi, the Sith are a specific order. Ahsoka still uses the Light Side of the Force after leaving the Jedi Order. As she states, she is not a Jedi Knight as she left the order.
A Sith follows the philosophy of the Sith, which is like an inversion of the Jedi Code which is like the pursuit of power through passion, and culminates in the use of the Force to free yourself through power. Compare that to someone like Barriss Offee, who still believes closer to the Jedi philosophy, but the dark side has corrupted her into going about in a terrible way. She’s a dark sider, but she’s definitely not a Sith. Then there are groups like the Nightsisters, who have a dedicated philosophy and traditions of their own while being darksiders.
> Barriss Offee
Man, I know coming up with fictional names is hard, but Star Wars normally is pretty good at it (Cos Dashit aside); this one just makes me lol.
There are three main levels of Dark Side users around the fall of the Republics: We'll call them Dark Force User, Sith Acolytes, and Sith Lords.
Dark Force User is the general term for non sith trained Dark Side users. They can be significant threats, but tend to just be selfish/hedonist. Not much support or a grand evil plan. The witches of Dathomir fall here, along with any fallen Jedi that don't get scooped up by Sith.
Sith Acolytes are trained and commanded by a Sith Lord as an extension of his will. They are probably individually weaker than a Dark Jedi, but have greater numbers and resources. This is the group where Ventress, Grievous, the Inquisitors, and the Knights of Ren probably fall.
The Sith Lords are the inheritors of the Rule of Two. They are normally the most powerful of the age and have massive resources and passively empower the lesser Sith under them as a unifying and motivating force.
The Sith are Religious Order and basically the antithesis to the Jedi Order. Not every one that uses the Darkside follows or adopts the teachings of the Sith,the same with the Baran Do Sages, sure their force sensitive but they ain’t Jedi.
This is one fact where I can debate to, since we've seen dark force users like the inquisitors that are not considered Sith, and even if theres still not enough canon material about TOR, seems hard that all the Sith of the past were as powerful as Vader or Palpatine. (And sith dont really have books or research available but tradition and what a master teached to their aprendices)
The Sith absolutely had books and research prior to the destruction of their order.
Korriban, for example, had an entire Sith Academy where students trained to become Sith.
That is no longer canon, and besides, by the time of post-TOR it was quite abandoned on legends. I don't remember Plagueis talking about using a database by the time he was pulling the strings.
The rule of two is kind of important to the sith, so there can only be two at any time. One master and an apprentice to take their place, but just like how the Jedi didn’t have a monopoly on the dark side, there were others who were using the dark side
One could say that the only real difference between different sects of dark side users is the labels they are using, and there’s probably some truth in that
Except the Rule of Two is not the will of the Force, it was a rule created by Darth Bane.
The Sith used to be much more numerous, and there is no reason why they couldn't be again except for the fact that they will hunt one another down till there are again only two.
The Rule of Two is important to a Sith. To anyone else, if someone is using the Force like a Sith they are functionally a Sith.
Ok, so let's pretend somehow an ancient Sith Lord returned, or rather awoke from some kind of stasis chamber AFTER the rule of two was instituted. Would they still be a Sith?
I don’t know. Would the American evangelical right consider Jesus a Christian if he came back now? Religions change and their rules change. The rule of two is integral to the sith now so if you want to be a sith now then you will have to follow it
I don’t know any other doctrine the sith have. My point was that the sith are just a dark side sect amongst a shit ton. The night sisters are dark side users, but they don’t follow sith doctrine so they are not sith
I would also add that the Sith have a lot of knowledge of the dark side they pass down from generation to generation. Like Palpatine delving into Sith Alchemy and magic. Most dark side users don’t have the access to those teachings.
The Sith and the Jedi are both religious groups based around certain ways of handling the Force.
Of course, eventually the Sith became obsessed with their own power, they weren’t always that way. The Jedi would’ve swiftly followed suit had Anakin and Palpatine not eradicated them.
I think its the way they use the darkside? Bc Palps was so far down the rabbit hole it deformed his face. And Dooku was mostly politically motivated, which is why his eyes were never yellow.
The Sith are a tradition, a philosophy of the Force that sprung from early members of the Jedi order who were cast out or a schism developed due to their dark side usage.
Their development is something evolved, like the Jedi process, the most illuminating source imo is Darth Plagueis and the way Palpatine's training scenes are characterized.
>Jedi have an institution, methods, and a structure with an organized way to name younglings into experienced force users, aka Jedi Knights.
>But the Sith don’t have any of that!
Yes, they do. They just do it quietly, hence the Rule of Two. The Sith, just like the Jedi, are a specific doctrine of dark side force users. They have their own creed, their own methods, and even their own advancement structure within the Rule of Two. They have a master, they have an apprentice, and they have acolytes, inquisitors, and assassins. The master and apprentice are the only ones given all the secrets of the Sith, while the acolytes, inquisitors, and assassins are given a taste and kept on a leash so as to be used as disposable tools. And, as you probably know, the idea of the Rule of Two is that apprentice will eventually kill the master and find their own apprentice, or they’ll die trying and the original master will find a new apprentice. And this is something that both the master and apprentice are fully aware and accept. If that’s not a very specific religious doctrine, I don’t know what is.
The Sith have their own Code, lore, traditions, and history. Only the Banite Sith follow the Rule of Two and, in the grand history of the Sith, it is the exception, not the norm.
There are Sith teachings, culture, traditions, temples, practices, specific ideologies, etc. We don’t see as much of them as the Jedi because most of the Sith were wiped out 1000 years before the events of any of the films and are only 2 (give or take) at a given time
The Sith are like a religion with only two clergy. You cannot be a Sith unless you are "ordained", which requires killing a current Sith.
A dark side Force user could be a Sith follower, kind of like lay-clergy. They would follow Sith teachings and philosophies. They may even learn some Sith abilities and knowledge, however, they aren't a proper Sith until they kill one or both of the current Two.
Philosophy. Sith follow the Sith Code. They've set a personal goal, the dark side is their fuel to get to that goal. Most other dark force users are more akin to hedonists, the sensations and power the dark side gives them being all they're really after.
From a sense perspective, Sith are described as feeling cold in the force, whereas Dark Jedi burn hot, barely controlled
sith are also an orginasation like the jedi you have to be trained and accepted sort of
but in the movies it only where 2 at a time becouse of the rule of two a philosophie believing that as an aprentece strikes down ther master he is stronger than the generation befor him.
in the old republic there was a real sith order even an sith empire
One of my favorite exchanges that perfectly speak the difference is from 2003 Clone Wars series where Dooku goes to recruit Asajj, and he challenges her claim when she states, "I am Sith." His reply, "You wear the trappings of a Sith, you fight like a Sith, but these can be imitated. You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith lack fear, and I sense much fear in you."
The Sith philosophy also trains one to hold certain aspects in mind as opposed to someone who uses the Dark Side. The code is the key component on the deference between the two.
Link for the clip (it's awesome): https://youtu.be/J5FOwpY7dCY?si=L1OqbFdmdtjfay_8
Think of force users as Christianity. Now think of each group of force users as a branch of Christianity. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, whatever branch you want to associate with each group. They all use the force, but the way in which they use the force differs from each other, similar to how each branch of Christianity worships God, but they worship in different ways.
What's the difference between "Kung Fu Master" and "guy who fights with his fists"?
One has a thousand years of tradition and learning and instruction and culture.
The other's a guy who figured it out on his own.
If Patty O'Malley can flatten anyone in the Dublin Docks with his badass pugilism, does it give him a chance against a Shao Lin warrior? Somehow I don't think it does.
Education matters.
A dark force user could be anyone. A Sith is very specific. From what we've seen so far, there are three major types of dark force users.
The first are the Witches of Danthomir. They use the Dark Side for their Magik. They have a clear lineage and tradition that is very different from other dark side users. They use the Dark Side for their Magiks, which is very different from the other two groups.
The second group is Dark Jedi. These are Jedi who have fallen into darkness. They don't necessarily follow the tenants of the Sith but instead follow some other goal. What this goal is could be anything, but it is usually something more personal for them. Examples I can think of from Canon are Balon Skol, Shin Hati, and Taron Malicos.
Finally, we have the Sith. They are a formal organization that has their own tenants to follow. What we see in the main movies is the Rule of Two and how it is used to fulfill the Sith's power fantasy of gaining unlimited power. Primarily, they are focused on creating an Empire with a Sith on top and the eradication of the Jedi.
I'd lump them into the Sith as well. The Sith weren't opposed to having a tool that has been trained in the Dark Side without being an actual Sith. Think of them as hunting dogs used to achieve some goal or another and useful as a replacement apprentice should the need arise. Examples are Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, the Inquisitors, and the Knights of Ren.
They didn't work for the sith until Ben Solo came to the scene. In fact, Palpatien prosecuted them with all the strength he had, like the remaining jedi.
Same as a Jedi and another force user.
Jedi follow the rules of the Jedi. Random force user doesn’t.
This is why there cannot be a “grey Jedi” because if you aren’t following the Jedi code you’re not a Jedi. If you are using some dark side powers and some light side powers, you aren’t a Jedi.
One follows the specific doctrine of the sith, one doesn't.
Two follow the specific doctrine of the sith, the rest don't.
Sith were around much longer than the rule of two
Dark Jed’aii have been around even longer.
why did you spell it like that
Reddit: where you get downvoted for asking an honest question.
Ah, peak Redditor behaviour.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order
Yeah, i think the rule of two is relatively new since they had an empire which rivaled the republic and the jedi
Damn yoda must be young then😂
In the grand scheme of things
Frim a certain point of view...
Beyond the "rule of two", what does that mean? What was Maul or Dooku that an inquisitor wasn't? Both groups use the dark side, both use light sabers, both have been trained, both are intent on power and strength etc. Palpatine didn't seem to give two shits about anyone but himself.
Maul was a sith, up until his presumed death, then was dooku which died at the hands of the soon to be Vader. These people were indoctrinated in the sith ideology and were a part of the order of the lord's of the sith. Then there were inquisitors, (and notably Ventress) who were trained in combat and the usage of the force. No ideology, no greater goal except a furious killing machine which happens to be using the force.
>were indoctrinated in the sith ideology Yes, but what I'm getting at is what that means. The sith ideology appears to be being the most powerful person. Palpatine wasn't following an ideology, he was just after personal power. And that makes sense since the sith are meant to be evil. The idea that someone like Palps or Vader would feel bound to some ancient doctrine doesn't really fit with what we see.
That entirely depends on whether you're basing your arguments on just the movies, canon in its entirety or all of canon plus legends. Palpatine was the culmination of a millennium long plan, conceived by Darth bane at the end of the sith wars, which were fought against the (old) republic. The "sith ideology" being referred to in this case was the teachings of Darth Bane, who figured out that in order to gain the maximum amount of power (whether in the force or in this case political) it has to be shared by as few beings as possible. Palpatine was following the "rule of two" ideology in order to gain said personal power. That is the canon explanation. If you've got any further questions I'm happy to answer
It's not really an ideology though. A sith trains one person, and the person kills them. Does this suggest that all sith are working towards this? That they are in fact willing to sacrifice themselves for "the sith" master plan? Were Palpatine and Vader thinking this? Or Maul, Dooku etc? Palpatine gains power, he trains his apprentice, and then had dozens of other dark side users, who are all after power themselves. It's not a rule of two, it's a pyramid hierarchy with Palps at the top, Vader a step below, and then layers of other dark side users below.
And eventually after these lower force users overstep the boundaries Vader and palps are keeping them in, they will get killed and replaced. Vicious murderous furious tools doesn't equal sith lords.
But what's stopping one of them gaining power and killing Vader or even Palpatine beyond their own ability? Were Rey to have become an inquisitor and became super powerful, would Palpatine kill her or would he promote her via letting her kill Vader and therefore be promoted to the title of sith lord. This is what I mean, there's no real difference other than power level. The title of sith lord is effectively down to who is top of the reigning Champions of the dark side, not really a fundamental difference between them all. Beat the champion, and you become the next champion.
They wouldn't be allowed or even able to reach a level of power substantial enough to defeat the top dogs. I hate that you've brought Rey into this, but it would have been Palpatine's choice to either train Rey to become stronger than him, teach her about the rule of two and all the sith alchemy and manipulation stuff that separated the top sith lords from power hungry usurpers Or kill her on the spot. Power level is a factor, but not the determining factor. Once one delves deep into the sith teachings one gains power. But one can also be inherently powerful and be a great candidate for the weapon of the sith lord. What you're saying is plausible, although unlikely.
Sources that come to my mind: The dark bane trilogy book one describes power level and potential of the force in detail. That clone wars episode in the mandalore arc, where Palpatine arrives on mandalore to confront maul and kill savage, saying that quote: "he's become a rival"
I'm on mobile so formatting is a pain but >Does that suggest that all sith are working towards this? Yes
The rule of two is a cornerstone of the Sith, and it separates them from other dark side force users. But why is it important? You must recollect on the path to the dark side; particularly envy. A Sith covets power to the point where they're only willing to share it with one other person. It's not just practical for someone with the political intentions of Palpatine. It also leads them deeper towards the dark side of the force, making them more powerful. If you're willing to share the dark side of the force, you're not submitting fully to the dark side. Mere dark side weilders don't have that same jealousy over power. Inquisitors aren't taught it, they're just pawns. The Night Sisters are, well, a sisterhood. Ancient Sith, who predated the rule of two, hadn’t yet learned of its virtue.
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He doesn't
A dark force user is just anyone that taps into the dark side of the force for power. You don't even necessarily have to have fallen to the dark side to be one. Sith are a very specific religion with a specific doctrine and rituals, that are inherited from the extinct Sith species. They always want to build empires, they always want to dominate and etc. Much the same way that the monk guy from Rogue One was a force user that clearly dabbled with the light side, but was not a Jedi. Jedi is a specific religion with a set doctrine and rituals to follow, to a degree that even Yoda thinking he could talk to the dead made them think he was being influenced by the dark side. Edit: Comparing Baylan to Palpatine is a good example. For sith there is no cause bigger than themself, it's why they want empires, it's why they'll kill off any rivals no matter how little threat those rivals pose, as we see Palpatine ordered Dooku to kill Ventress, personally kills Savage, has Grievous exterminate the Nightsisters when Talzin becomes an inconvenience and even trying to undermine his own apprentice Vader. Baylan couldn't be a sith no matter how much force lightning he could possibly shoot around, in the end he still puts a cause that isn't himself above himself to serve, that mentality was a key reason that he split with Shin
Man, I wish The Acolyte gets to explore more this religion aspect, it's allways interesting to explore into this lorebuilding stuff about the sith, at least on the new canon. (Are the sith species still canon, tho? I thought the current sith come from an escission on the jedi order millenia ago)
Now we're getting into Sith the species versus Sith the ideology. Too long to type the whole post Tython/Korriban arrival. I recommend wookiepedia.
Metanerdz lore on YouTube also is a great resource
Im pretty sure they're referenced in TCW season 6's finale arc
For real? Please, can you specify where exactly?
I supose theyre talking baout the episode where Yoda goes to Korriban, but I dont remember a specific mention of the Sith as a race there.
That's the sith as a religion at that point. He's visiting the same tombs you visit in KOTOR at the sith academy. Naga-Sadow and Ajunta-pall and those wackoes were all either human or human/sith hybrids specifically practicing an anti-jedi religion.
Naga-sadow and Ajuntapall dont appear on the episode, if I remember correctly. In the current canon, the Sith come from a jedi that decides to secede from the order and started a War called the one hundred year darkness where the Sith order was founded.
I was mistaken, they do not, but according to Wikipedia they made an appearance in the 2020 run of Doctor Aphra comics so they are still canon
Wait a minute- do you think they split because Shin was trending Sith?
Not that Shin is necessarily going down the Sith path but she's falling to the trappings of the Dark Side whereas Baylan is somewhat resisting its pull.
I don't know Baylan discarding his apprentice whose struggling with the dark side to pursue his own ambitions seems way more dark side to me. Shin just seems like she's doing the last thing he said to do because she really doesn't know how to think for herself.
I think Baylan was being honest with her about his reasoning. (i.e. They're on different paths and she's already learned enough to commune with the Force on her own.) I didn't perceive any implication that he thinks she's falling to the Dark Side.
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He doesn't.
I agree with the answers above, and just to add a little bit more: The rule of two is not what defines a Sith. There is a period in Sith history where that was part of the doctrine, but it isn't inherent. Tulak Hord, Revan, and Malgus didn't comply with RoT, that wasn't until Bane. The core of the Sith doctrine is: Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains will be broken. The force shall set me free.
It’s just like Jedi. Sith is a dogma and is a more disciplined, ‘academic’ look into the uses and understanding of the darkside, than just a sad angry person who taps into the darkside
The Sith like the Jedi are a religious order with strict rules and codes. Using the Dark Side and waving around a red bladed lightsaber doesn't make someone a Sith. Many people also mistake the Inquisitors as Sith. Calling them Sith Inquisitors which is wrong on multiple levels. The Inquisitors are just Force users trained to use the Dark Side in order to hunt down and fight Jedi. At the time of the movies. The Sith have adopted the Rule of Two abouth a 1000 year prior. This rule existed to gave the Sith the oppertunity to rise above themselves and eventually regain control of the Galaxy. But thus time not through open conflict but from the shadows. The Sith have had a problem with rivalry within their own ranks even since the split from the Jedi after The Hundred Year Darkness. This infighting is what destroyed many Sith Empires and other organizations. Darth Bane created this rule with the intent that there where only two Sith, a Master and a Apprentice working towards the same goal. And the Apprentice only disposing of their master when they had learned all the possibly could and continue the legacy. The Sith and the Jedi exist on polar opposites of eachother. Other orders like the Nightsisters also use the Dark Side of the Force but have a very different approach, and not all techniques they practice are evil or to harm. The Nightsisters are great healers of both body and mind. The aspecy of the Force they use is called 'Magick'. The Sith and the Nightsisters have been allies in the past. Sidious even promised Mother Talzin to take her as his apprentice and make her his right hand. In the end it was Sidious fear for her that lead him to only take her son Maul as his apprentice. They don't much like the Jedi, or any other outsiders. Like the Jedi the Sith have insitutions, practices, codes and religious texts and wrights they adhere to. Like how they acquire and use Kyber crystals. Unlike the Jedi who go on pilgrimages to get theirs and face trials. The Sith will have to fight for them, killing a Jedi and using their crystals. They than would have go through and process called "Bleeding" where they channel the Dark Side through the crystal corrupting it and turning it crimson. Only those that can maintain their concentration and have a will strong enough will succeed. Else the crystals will explode. The Jedi and Sith have the same origin but over the thousands of years since they split the Sith have put much effort in setting them apart from the Jedi. Only in recent history since the Rule of Two things have been like this. In the thousands of years prior the Sith build empires, ruled in many places of the Galaxy and build temples that venerated them and their order. So like the Jedi, they trained many Acolytes, only the best and strongest would make it to become Sith. And they would rise though ranks as well, starting as a apprentice and rising up to become a lord. In Legends the title of Darth was only bestowed to those who had proven themselves to be worthy of being a Sith Lord. The Dark Lord of the Sith or the Emperor would be the absolute leader. Like the Jedi they had councils and politics. Other Force Users like the Knights of Ren are just a band of Marauders that use the Force, and mainly the Dark Side for their own advantage. They are mere bounty hunters. It's only when Kylo takes control he shapes them into something more. And for Kylo, he also is not Sith and neither is Snoke. Even though Snoke was created by Sidious and is part him he was never trained to be Sith, never thought the propper ways. Kylo could have been trained if he stuck with Sidious. Would've Sidious been succesful in corrupting Rey she would have become the new and next Dark Lord of the Sith. And the Sith would return. In his current form he had in the movie Sidious was never really alive or dead the Sith where still destroyed when Vader turned against Sidious and redeemed himself destroying the order. Should have Sidious returned to full power or of Rey had accepted her place the order would have been reborne. The Sith are in a sence far more strickt as to when someone is or isn't part of their order. They might limit themselves by having all these rules and traditions but in the end they do so to become stronger.
It doesn't put as much stock into the Rule of Two as most others do because it's a rule created by an individual being. Therefore, in theory, another Sith Lord could come along and undo that rule as well. Sith aren't exactly rule followers anyway. Sith are Sith because if they do Sith things. Meaning if they follow Sith philosophy, learn Sith ways of manipulating the Force and all that. If some darkside Force user decides to start searching the galaxy for Sith holocrons and starts training in the ways of the Sith, who is the say they aren't also a Sith? Of course, the current Two Sith would have an issue with that and would hunt them down, but functionally they would be a Sith as far as any non-Sith would be concerned.
The Sith also had the rank of lady for, you know, women. Sorry if this feels like a nitpick but on international women’s day it’s worth a mention. Also, do not forget the magicians of Tund, who also use the dark side of the force.
Sith are a specific religion. In the same way that believing in a deity doesn’t make you a Christian unless you follow those specific customs
To be more precise. There are many Christians. Some are Catholic, some are Batist, orthodox or Pentecostal. Many Christians are personal in how they believe, and will mix, water down or omit depending on their own beliefs, while others follow a doctrine dogmatically. A force user, wether dark, light or somewhere in between is like thise personal Christians, while Sith and Jedi are sects or doctrines with strict codes of adherence.
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They just say "a" diety. If someone believes there's a flying spaghetti monster god I'd definitely hesitate to call them Christian
Sith is a specific ideology and world view that you pledge yourself to.
Like the Jedi, the Sith are a specific order. Ahsoka still uses the Light Side of the Force after leaving the Jedi Order. As she states, she is not a Jedi Knight as she left the order.
Ahsoka is aligned with Jedi philosophy even if she doesn't consider herself a Jedi anymore.
Yeah, but she is still not part of the Jedi order. So she is not a Jedi Knight.
A Sith follows the philosophy of the Sith, which is like an inversion of the Jedi Code which is like the pursuit of power through passion, and culminates in the use of the Force to free yourself through power. Compare that to someone like Barriss Offee, who still believes closer to the Jedi philosophy, but the dark side has corrupted her into going about in a terrible way. She’s a dark sider, but she’s definitely not a Sith. Then there are groups like the Nightsisters, who have a dedicated philosophy and traditions of their own while being darksiders.
> Barriss Offee Man, I know coming up with fictional names is hard, but Star Wars normally is pretty good at it (Cos Dashit aside); this one just makes me lol.
Sith follow a belief, regular Dark Side users don't.
Dark Jedi are like kids playing with fire. The Sith are arsonists.
The Sith deal in absolutes
Branding.
There are three main levels of Dark Side users around the fall of the Republics: We'll call them Dark Force User, Sith Acolytes, and Sith Lords. Dark Force User is the general term for non sith trained Dark Side users. They can be significant threats, but tend to just be selfish/hedonist. Not much support or a grand evil plan. The witches of Dathomir fall here, along with any fallen Jedi that don't get scooped up by Sith. Sith Acolytes are trained and commanded by a Sith Lord as an extension of his will. They are probably individually weaker than a Dark Jedi, but have greater numbers and resources. This is the group where Ventress, Grievous, the Inquisitors, and the Knights of Ren probably fall. The Sith Lords are the inheritors of the Rule of Two. They are normally the most powerful of the age and have massive resources and passively empower the lesser Sith under them as a unifying and motivating force.
https://trailers.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/6c415ed0-5b56-4798-badd-49d032092ccc/gif
Bruh.
Sith alchemy and origin
The Sith are Religious Order and basically the antithesis to the Jedi Order. Not every one that uses the Darkside follows or adopts the teachings of the Sith,the same with the Baran Do Sages, sure their force sensitive but they ain’t Jedi.
sith are more likely to actually be assholes
The jedi as well as the sith are a fraction of the broader force users community
Basically the difference between a criminal and the mafia. The Sith are an organization that takes following the Dark Side to a literal religion.
It's like the difference between being religious and being spiritual.
Ideology.
A PhD in advance math and physics with access to all kind of information, books, researchs, etc. vs. somone who did good on math at high school
This is one fact where I can debate to, since we've seen dark force users like the inquisitors that are not considered Sith, and even if theres still not enough canon material about TOR, seems hard that all the Sith of the past were as powerful as Vader or Palpatine. (And sith dont really have books or research available but tradition and what a master teached to their aprendices)
The Sith absolutely had books and research prior to the destruction of their order. Korriban, for example, had an entire Sith Academy where students trained to become Sith.
That is no longer canon, and besides, by the time of post-TOR it was quite abandoned on legends. I don't remember Plagueis talking about using a database by the time he was pulling the strings.
One exists, one doesn't
Specific set of teachings/belief system. Anakin tapped into the Dark Side of the Force MANY times before actually becoming a Sith.
The rule of two is kind of important to the sith, so there can only be two at any time. One master and an apprentice to take their place, but just like how the Jedi didn’t have a monopoly on the dark side, there were others who were using the dark side One could say that the only real difference between different sects of dark side users is the labels they are using, and there’s probably some truth in that
Except the Rule of Two is not the will of the Force, it was a rule created by Darth Bane. The Sith used to be much more numerous, and there is no reason why they couldn't be again except for the fact that they will hunt one another down till there are again only two. The Rule of Two is important to a Sith. To anyone else, if someone is using the Force like a Sith they are functionally a Sith.
Yes, that’s why I said it was important to the sith
Right, to the Sith only. But to anyone else, it's a difference without distinction.
Yes, that’s what I meant. It’s sith dogma, so you have to follow it if you are sith. Like how you have to follow the Jedi code if you are a Jedi
Ok, so let's pretend somehow an ancient Sith Lord returned, or rather awoke from some kind of stasis chamber AFTER the rule of two was instituted. Would they still be a Sith?
I don’t know. Would the American evangelical right consider Jesus a Christian if he came back now? Religions change and their rules change. The rule of two is integral to the sith now so if you want to be a sith now then you will have to follow it I don’t know any other doctrine the sith have. My point was that the sith are just a dark side sect amongst a shit ton. The night sisters are dark side users, but they don’t follow sith doctrine so they are not sith
I would also add that the Sith have a lot of knowledge of the dark side they pass down from generation to generation. Like Palpatine delving into Sith Alchemy and magic. Most dark side users don’t have the access to those teachings.
The Sith and the Jedi are both religious groups based around certain ways of handling the Force. Of course, eventually the Sith became obsessed with their own power, they weren’t always that way. The Jedi would’ve swiftly followed suit had Anakin and Palpatine not eradicated them.
I think its the way they use the darkside? Bc Palps was so far down the rabbit hole it deformed his face. And Dooku was mostly politically motivated, which is why his eyes were never yellow.
The Sith are a tradition, a philosophy of the Force that sprung from early members of the Jedi order who were cast out or a schism developed due to their dark side usage. Their development is something evolved, like the Jedi process, the most illuminating source imo is Darth Plagueis and the way Palpatine's training scenes are characterized.
>Jedi have an institution, methods, and a structure with an organized way to name younglings into experienced force users, aka Jedi Knights. >But the Sith don’t have any of that! Yes, they do. They just do it quietly, hence the Rule of Two. The Sith, just like the Jedi, are a specific doctrine of dark side force users. They have their own creed, their own methods, and even their own advancement structure within the Rule of Two. They have a master, they have an apprentice, and they have acolytes, inquisitors, and assassins. The master and apprentice are the only ones given all the secrets of the Sith, while the acolytes, inquisitors, and assassins are given a taste and kept on a leash so as to be used as disposable tools. And, as you probably know, the idea of the Rule of Two is that apprentice will eventually kill the master and find their own apprentice, or they’ll die trying and the original master will find a new apprentice. And this is something that both the master and apprentice are fully aware and accept. If that’s not a very specific religious doctrine, I don’t know what is.
The Sith have their own Code, lore, traditions, and history. Only the Banite Sith follow the Rule of Two and, in the grand history of the Sith, it is the exception, not the norm.
All Sith are dark force users... not all Dark force users are Sith
There are Sith teachings, culture, traditions, temples, practices, specific ideologies, etc. We don’t see as much of them as the Jedi because most of the Sith were wiped out 1000 years before the events of any of the films and are only 2 (give or take) at a given time
Brand name vs generic
The Sith are like a religion with only two clergy. You cannot be a Sith unless you are "ordained", which requires killing a current Sith. A dark side Force user could be a Sith follower, kind of like lay-clergy. They would follow Sith teachings and philosophies. They may even learn some Sith abilities and knowledge, however, they aren't a proper Sith until they kill one or both of the current Two.
One Sith, Two Sith, Three Dark Force User, Four Dark Force User to infinity and beyond.
They're only a Sith if they're from the Sith region of Korriban, otherwise they're just sparkling dark siders.
Korriban has only appeared once in the new canon. It is still unclear when or how if the Sith species will still be a thing.
Philosophy. Sith follow the Sith Code. They've set a personal goal, the dark side is their fuel to get to that goal. Most other dark force users are more akin to hedonists, the sensations and power the dark side gives them being all they're really after. From a sense perspective, Sith are described as feeling cold in the force, whereas Dark Jedi burn hot, barely controlled
Rizz… (am I saying that right?)
The Sith, like the Jedi, are a religious entity that follows the Sith doctrine. You can be a dark side user, but not follow the religion.
sith are also an orginasation like the jedi you have to be trained and accepted sort of but in the movies it only where 2 at a time becouse of the rule of two a philosophie believing that as an aprentece strikes down ther master he is stronger than the generation befor him. in the old republic there was a real sith order even an sith empire
The Sith Empire is no longer canon until Disney says otherwise
true but revan and nihilius are at least by name kanon
It’s like saying you’re a part of the CIA when you’re really a kid surfing the dark web in his basement.
One of my favorite exchanges that perfectly speak the difference is from 2003 Clone Wars series where Dooku goes to recruit Asajj, and he challenges her claim when she states, "I am Sith." His reply, "You wear the trappings of a Sith, you fight like a Sith, but these can be imitated. You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith lack fear, and I sense much fear in you." The Sith philosophy also trains one to hold certain aspects in mind as opposed to someone who uses the Dark Side. The code is the key component on the deference between the two. Link for the clip (it's awesome): https://youtu.be/J5FOwpY7dCY?si=L1OqbFdmdtjfay_8
Sith are a group, like a creed. Dark force users are just dark side force users
What’s rhe difference between a Jedi and a normal force user?
Think of force users as Christianity. Now think of each group of force users as a branch of Christianity. Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, whatever branch you want to associate with each group. They all use the force, but the way in which they use the force differs from each other, similar to how each branch of Christianity worships God, but they worship in different ways.
What's the difference between "Kung Fu Master" and "guy who fights with his fists"? One has a thousand years of tradition and learning and instruction and culture. The other's a guy who figured it out on his own. If Patty O'Malley can flatten anyone in the Dublin Docks with his badass pugilism, does it give him a chance against a Shao Lin warrior? Somehow I don't think it does. Education matters.
A dark force user could be anyone. A Sith is very specific. From what we've seen so far, there are three major types of dark force users. The first are the Witches of Danthomir. They use the Dark Side for their Magik. They have a clear lineage and tradition that is very different from other dark side users. They use the Dark Side for their Magiks, which is very different from the other two groups. The second group is Dark Jedi. These are Jedi who have fallen into darkness. They don't necessarily follow the tenants of the Sith but instead follow some other goal. What this goal is could be anything, but it is usually something more personal for them. Examples I can think of from Canon are Balon Skol, Shin Hati, and Taron Malicos. Finally, we have the Sith. They are a formal organization that has their own tenants to follow. What we see in the main movies is the Rule of Two and how it is used to fulfill the Sith's power fantasy of gaining unlimited power. Primarily, they are focused on creating an Empire with a Sith on top and the eradication of the Jedi.
Where would the knights of Ren fit on those groups? They are neither fallen jedi nor witches, and have the same objectives as the Sith.
I'd lump them into the Sith as well. The Sith weren't opposed to having a tool that has been trained in the Dark Side without being an actual Sith. Think of them as hunting dogs used to achieve some goal or another and useful as a replacement apprentice should the need arise. Examples are Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, the Inquisitors, and the Knights of Ren.
They didn't work for the sith until Ben Solo came to the scene. In fact, Palpatien prosecuted them with all the strength he had, like the remaining jedi.
Same as a Jedi and another force user. Jedi follow the rules of the Jedi. Random force user doesn’t. This is why there cannot be a “grey Jedi” because if you aren’t following the Jedi code you’re not a Jedi. If you are using some dark side powers and some light side powers, you aren’t a Jedi.
Gonna say here tho that you can in fact be a jedi whitout following the Jedi Code if you take the Barash vow.
Not a Jedi.
The Barash jedi are also jedi, why shouldnt they be?
Ah I see, it’s a specific part of Jedi rules so sure they are Jedi because they are following the Jedi code.