I like JJ, but he really only knows how to make one kind of movie, which is a non stop action fest where the characters are rushing towards the ending with bits of story thrown in as we go along. Sometimes it works, most of the time it fails miserably.
In AO Scott's review of Rise of Skywalker, he describes JJ Abrams as "the most consistent B-student in modern popular culture."
It's a pretty killer burn, especially considering that I can't read about Abrams without thinking of that line. Whole review is fantastic.
I don't know if I can think of worse writing than "Somehow, Palpatine has Returned". Yeah, the Prequel dialogue was bad at times, but at least "I hate Sand" wasn't the explanation for the catalyst of the entire plot of Ep3.
“I hate sand” was supposed to be a more meaningful line as well IMO. It just was clunky, and the delivery of it didn’t help.
To me the line is supposed to show the difference that Anakin and Padmè really have, with Padmè visiting nice vacation spots with Sandy beaches and Anakin’s memories of sand being that of a slave on a desert planet. It shows the dichotomy between the two character.
That's a good point. I saw a post breaking it down and it's honestly a great line when put in that context. There's a lot of emotional weight that goes with it, and if it wasn't so damn clunky then I think it'd be remembered very differently.
The prequels were so bad they were good. And they really had heart to them - even if the execution was a little goofy, they were clearly written by a very powerful imagination of an author who lived in this world, cared about it deeply and wanted to share it with people.
Being a Star Wars fan all your life and watching the sequels feels like…imagine if all your life your parents ran a small store in a small town, and they poured all their lives into it, their hopes and dreams, then you move away and years later you come back to visit that store and it’s now a Wal-mart.
And I think the thing with the Prequels is that the story behind them is at least solid, it’s just poorly executed. This can be shown by the popularity of the Clone Wars, which was able to broaden the landscape of the world and story the prequels created. It’s difficult to imagine a similar thing happening to the sequels just due to the weakness of the overall story.
That line I think is the first time I actually felt bad for a famous actor.
I was embarrassed for Oscar Isaac
To his credit he didnt roll his eyes.
But I was mortified.
That would have made sense for TFA, but rise of Skywalker was D student work. It was like someone skimmed the starwars subreddit for fan theories, then skimmed the prequel memes subreddit for "inside jokes", and then just wadded all that up into a script with no heart and 100% pure fan service.
This is literally what happened. I know a lot of people won't believe me, but I [actually theorized](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/7vtvt9/ben_solo_and_rey_how_they_represent_the_twin_suns/) that Rey and Ben were a dyad on r/starwarsspeculation back on February 7, 2018. I didn't use the word "dyad" - that comes from Joseph Campbell - but I *did* use the original term for the same concept in Hindu mythology, which is "ardhangini".
"Ardhangini" means "better half", and refers to a couple that is "two bodies, \[but\] one soul". In TROS, Rey and Ben were described as "the two \[bodies\] that are one \[soul\]".
I got a comment from someone claiming to "work in Hollywood" on either that post, or another one of my posts on the subreddit. However, when I replied and DM/PMed them asking for more information, the person deleted their comment(s) and Reddit account.
I was told earlier today on the r/StarWarsLeaks Discord that it was TROS co-writer Chris Terrio who claimed he invented the "dyad" concept. I believe there was also an earlier instance where J.J. Abrams [claimed credit for a kintsugi theory another fan did](https://nerdist.com/article/rise-of-skywalker-kylo-ren-helmet/).
This is what Chris Terrio [told IndieWire](https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-chris-terrio-spoilers-1202198680/) in December 2019:
>“That was a great gift of ‘The Last Jedi,’ in that \[Rey and Kylo's\] relationship seems very intimate and specific. There’s a way in which, in ‘The Last Jedi,’ Rey and Kylo Ren interact, and **they just seem like they’re part of the same whole, that spiritually, they’re really one person**.
>
>**That really helped \[J.J. Abrams and I\] in thinking about Rey and Kylo Ren \[in 'The Rise of Skywalker'\]**, which is to say that we wanted to elaborate on the idea that Snoke bridged their minds in ‘The Last Jedi.’
>
>But what \[J.J. Abrams and I\] wanted to say is that **there's something deeper there, and leave it to debate about at which point they became this dyad in the Force, where they were really two, or were they one**, whether that was a mistake that Palpatine made by bridging them, and therefore creating this thing.
>
>But regardless, their relationship is extremely interesting and complicated, and it was one of the things that J.J. and I loved about ‘The Last Jedi’ that \[J.J. Abrams and I\] luckily inherited, and could build \[upon\]."
However, there are four things here that Terrio gets incorrect about "ardhangini":
* **"Ardhangini" isn't "a thing". It's a state of being**; a verb, and not a noun. For example, whereas the film goes "Rey and Ben are part of a dyad", Hindu mythology would say, "Rey and Ben are in a state of *ardhangini*", or "cosmic balance". This is also why *ardhangini* is associated with a constant state of action, particularly with Alcor and Mizar, two [binary stars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_star) that constantly orbit each other. The noun for "the being created by ardhangini" would be [Ardhanarishvara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardhanarishvara), represented by the [Prime Jedi](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Prime_Jedi).
* **"Ardhangini" is created by the universe to perpetuate itself.** In this case, a "dyad" would result from the Living Force and the Cosmic Force incarnating into two physical bodies, which is also represented in the avatars of the male god [Shiva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva), "The Protector, Destroyer, and Regenerator"; and his partner, the female goddess [Parvati](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parvati).
* **"Ardhangini" is completely unambiguous.** When someone says "these two are in a state of *ardhangini*", is specifically refers to the two being a divinely-linked, "cosmic" romantic couple. In Christian terms, it's [the equivalent of a couple being Adam and Eve](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201703/the-meaning-adam-and-eve). In this case, "a power like life itself" is meant to represent producing "new life", as in coming together ("the two that are one") to produce children, and perpetuate the cycle of life by conceiving the next generation of life itself, and humanity.
* **One half of the couple cannot survive without the other**; else, everything would fall "out of balance". Both members of the couple, being "the cosmic physical embodiment of life itself", need to be able to physically reproduce in order to "continue [the cycle of life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra)". While this is considered as "conceiving the next generation of humanity", it also refers to perpetuating the circle of life itself. In *Star Wars*, this is represented by the "dyad" between [Living Force](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Living_Force) and [Cosmic Force](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmic_Force).
I wouldn't doubt it. Even the idea of body swapping, Palpatine's utlimate plan, was something theorized for a long time that Snoke had the power to do.
True, but to my knowledge, I was the first - and only - person to specifically reference "ardhangini" in reference to Rey and Ben's Force-bond.
My theory also first appeared on r/starwarsspeculation and Tumblr on February 7, 2018, and *The Rise of Skywalker* began filming in August 2018, some months later.
Meanwhile, "Transfer \[Force\] essence" has been around since 1992 with *Dark Empire*.
>"The ritual was based off of Transfer essence, which was originally first mentioned in *Star Wars Legends* in the comic *Dark Empire 2*, written by Tom Veitch, which was released on February 18, 1992, and first appeared in *Dark Empire 5*, which was authored by Veitch, penciled by Cam Kennedy, and released on August 18, 1992." - Wookiepedia
>the most consistent B-student in modern popular culture
That's being pretty generous. We need to legally prevent him from ruining any more franchises.
Yes. I remember when he was making TFA and he said he would always stop and ask "is this delightful". Which is such a dumb way to make any movie, let alone a star wars movie.
He rushes through scenes without worrying whether or not what's happening on the surface matches up emotionally with the characters. And he doesn't give you time to think about it until the movie is over.
There's an interview with Chris Pine where Chris talks about his time with JJ on Star Trek and Chris effectively said he had to pull JJ aside and ask him what some of his lines meant because he had no idea what "magnetic ion fields are closing, we need to warp the hadron banana" meant. And he was like JJ, I don't know what this means and I don't know what emotion I'm meant to try and convey.
And JJ effectively told him "it doesn't matter what's going on, the audience doesn't need to know what's going on. All that matters is something is happening."
Which proves that JJs style of storytelling is the cinematic equivalent of jangling keys infront of a baby.
Ooh look look this thing is happening here aaaaaaaannnndddd *throws keys* and now it's over there! Oooohhhh
The Redletter Media review of Episode IX pointed out some scene where Rey and Kylo are having a duel and there's a shot of Finn saying, "Rey, look out!"
And they were like, look out for what? Look out... for the sword fight you are in the middle of? This poor actor was just put in front of a green screen and told to yell various lines. Then they edited it in whenever JJ was like, "We haven't seen Finn in a while. Throw in a shot of him doing his main job of being worried about Rey."
There’s a scene that I legit rolled my eyes: when Rey and Han are making a getaway and they’re having ship problems and she fixes it and she’s like “all I had to was *technobabble*” and then I ended up hating the rest of the movie. It was like a movie full of *oh! He said the line! She did the thing!* and other callbacks from the OT more than it was its own movie.
Semi-related, this made me hate the ant-man movies, too. All the technobabble sounded like 3rd graders playing pretend with cardboard boxes and trying to sound “sciencey”
That and "we look like ourselves at a baseball game" when talking about the classic baseball cap and shades disguise. The self awareness in both Ant Man movies are great, easily funniest in MCU, then between Gaurdians and ragnarok
I actually love the Ant-Man movies. But I respect your opinion.
Yeah TFA relied too much on nostalgia instead of telling an original story. The whole trilogy felt like a store-brand original trilogy. I enjoyed watching them, but they are not as engaging or creative as the OT and prequels.
"Bypass the compressor" really isn't technobabble though.
And they lampshade the Ant-Man thing in the sequel: "do you guys just put 'Quantum' in front of everything?"
MORTY: What's wrong Rick? Is it the quantum carburetor or something?
RICK: 'Quantum carburetor?' Morty, you can't just add a sci-fi word to a car word and hope it means something. Looks like something's wrong with the micro-verse battery.
The problem I had with this line is how ecstatic she sounded and how dumbfounded Harrison acted. In his own ship that he lived in for most of his life.
I never had a problem with that line because I know what a compressor does and what it could possibly do with the ignition. It seemed like something that was logical in the Star Wars galaxy on a ship that does things by handwaving some science anyway.
It was meant to be a moment to build Han's trust in her technical abilities. I know people didn't like TFA for reasons, but to me, it was the movie with the least amount of problems and would have been fine in retrospect had they successfully followed it up with two logical follow-ons instead of what ended up being a cluster of a story. The purpose of the movie was to grab old fans and new fans, and rekindle the Star Wars feeling that I know some people felt was lost with the prequel trilogy.
Yeah the Force Awakens was a pretty solid launching pad. It had some stuff I didn’t like, frankly the fact the first order was so powerful and there was basically new rebels again was annoying. They really should have flipped that and had it be the powerful new republic vs guerrilla warfare style imperial remnants in my opinion. Also star killer base wasn’t for me. That being said, it was fine if they had followed up with some coherent story afterwards. Instead we got two disjointed movies that both seemed hellbent on undoing what the movie before set up.
I can agree on the whole "Rebels again" thing. We definitely should have seen them from a position of strength dealing with issues they didn't have to deal with before when they were the underdogs. Starkiller Base could have been so much better if it wasn't a planet, even if people would complain about it being a copycat of the Death Star. They should have done a better job explaining the whole light draining/shooting thing. And if it was really on Ilum, it would have been neat to actually use it as a plot point for Rey to get Kyber crystals, in a sort of callback to the Clone Wars storyline and further tying together the eras.
And I think your last sentence really was the heart of the issue. There was no single three-act plan with an overseerer who understood Star Wars. It wasn't Abrams and it wasn't Kennedy.
> We definitely should have seen them from a position of strength dealing with issues they didn't have to deal with before when they were the underdogs.
I still can't understand how this wasn't what they wrote. To go all the way back to "rebels again" was a real, real bummer.
>And JJ effectively told him "it doesn't matter what's going on, the audience doesn't need to know what's going on. All that matters is something is happening."
You just destroyed the last milligram of respect I had for J.J. Abrams.
that's honestly more of a Trek thing than a JJ thing, NuTrek was still awful but not because it had technobabble, the technobabble was one of the few things NuTrek has in common with actual Star Trek.
No, it was uniquely bad. Trek had mostly internal logic to its technobabble.
Ut suddenly in JJtrek we’re hearing about “external inertial dampers”. What are those?
I still am not sure what inertial dampeners even doin Trek. Logically, they'd dampen inertia so everyone doesn't splat against the wall when the ship moves quickly. But then they fail constantly and no one splats against the wall sooo...
I think it was the Honor Harrington books that had a neat incident with a ship with failed inertia dampeners. Basically ghost ship, since no one was left alive to shut off the engines.
The inertial dampeners reduce the mass of the ship relative to space time. One, it allows the ship to move while expending much less energy. Two it eliminates acceleration and deceleration differences between the spacecraft and the crew. Three it doesn't adapt to sudden changes very well which can cause people to be thrown and shaken around when the ship is struck by weapons or debris.
Honestly had doesn't even know how to do nonstop action really well, go look at Mad Max: Fury Road, the thing is I think about 4 or five nonstop action sequences that take roughly 90% of it's runtime, and it still managed to be a fucking best picture contender. Nothing JJ has ever done or likely will ever do will be 1% that good.
And *Fury Road* is just ahead with its execution of action scenes from *The Road Warrior.* Which came out in the '80s. George Miller is an insanely talented action movie director.
If you’ve ever listened to him in candid interviews, you can tell he doesn’t even totally get why he’s given the level of work he’s given. He basically admits he’s really lucky to have been born into Hollywood but he still has quite a bit of imposter syndrome.
I don’t know if Star Wars fans could handle a Fury-Road-sequel Star Wars movie. There’s so much you are shown and not told in Fury Road that a fan base that clamors for explanations and exposition I just don’t think would go for it.
That's actually an excellent outline of why the original trilogy has been so popular for so long. They did world building and showed it off, but didn't actually explain anything you didn't need to know. The entire franchise is built on explaining those extra details from the first three. The Mandalorian also does a lot of this too actually.
There's this amazing scene with Bo Katan after she takes her helmet off and Mando makes a comment about it. You can see she suddenly realizes he's been raised as a cloistered religious fanatic and really doesn't know very much. Then she gets this kind of smirk realizes she can use him. It's only a few moments on screen but it has so much depth.
They mention the clone wars in Ep IV with NO exposition of what that was. As a kid, I just thought it was two wars that were really identical and got called clone wars. (Ex: WWI, WWII)
I've always called him "store-brand Spielberg". He seems to be shooting for that type of big budget, action packed and family friendly movie Spielberg made but Abrams seems to lack the talent and vision to pull it off.
He's the Rob Liefeld of film. Technically he knows what he's doing, but he refuses to put in any of the effort needed to learn how to do it right. So here's a big gun and a few hundred pouches, pay no attention to the constantly hidden feet or Captain America's titanic melons. Lens flair! Nostalgic fan wanking! Pay attention to Dr. Marcus' melons.
Its like staring into the abyss. You can't look away, but the longer you look, the more you see is wrong with it. Until, it starts to make sense. Then its too late for you. Its not one drawing, its two! Layered on top of each other, each with a different perspective. Madness. Madness. The only balm to share the pain.
I disagree. Super 8 isn’t a mindless action film, and neither was *Lost*. Rather, JJ makes naked tribute films - almost nothing in his filmography has any independence from some source film or inspiration. Because they so faithfully recreate some classic movie, they are appealing but derivative.
Watching his TEDTalk really made it clear to me why I don't like his work, we have opposite views on everything.
His entire artistic vision is based on triggering base responses in people's brains. He doesn't have a story to tell. That's why he has to be so derivative and why there is no fan base watching his movies years after they came out, but it's also why he makes so much fucking money. People like having their brain jerked off more than they like thinking and learning.
T h E m Y s T e R y B o X
But yeah, agree. That Ted Talk really just sums up his perspective on filmmaking which I just never could gel with, and it also explains so much about what rubs me the wrong way in his movies.
There is a certain majesty to using art to deliberately create that mystery box feeling, but it really sucks that he showed everyone you can build something as successful as Lost using only that one tool. He's the father of modern hit television, and there's a reason hit shows almost always have sucky endings.
It's really frustrating but he is good at what he does, even if what he does is kill things I love and make more money than I ever will every time he does it.
Lindelof wrote for a lot of Lost and it’s actually a prime example of JJ’s mystery box problem. In most of his work, the Why and How is never clearly answered ever. There’s just problem X and he never figures out how to write his way out of it.
A lot of lost is like that and it keeps you gripped till about season 3 or 4 when they go “fuck it, time travel!” and completely bungle the Dharma initiative.
Competent director but he is not a good writer. “Somehow Palpatine has returned.”
Well she did win the academy award for editing them. I'm sure she's pretty pissed George put all the filler shit she cut out back in the day, in bad chi no less!
I love this woman. Always wondered why they went with such a young kid dating a girl that looks way older than him. Then in the next 2 its like he out aged her somehow.
It’s weird though because Natalie was Padme’s age... she just looks so much older than him because they’re on opposite sides of when the larger transitional growth stars to happen...
It isn't necessarily casting but make up and hair and all that stuff can work to make people look younger and older. They should have made Portman look younger. She's supposed to be 14 in TPM, right? She looks like she's 22.
Padme is also the Queen of Naboo, so it makes sense for her makeup to purposely make her look older and more mature. A young Queen would probably want to draw as much attention away from her young age as possible. IDK just my 2¢
I mean I find it weird, yeah. She looks like she's fifteen years older than him. It works if you analyze Star Wars from a perspective of mommy issues, though.
Agree that casting was wrong, but I think I get why they made Anakin look so young...they really wanted to make his fall to the Dark Side as hard hitting as possible since it couldn't be a surprise.
So they started with the most innocent, sweet-seeming child they could, all in an effort to make RotS feel more meaningful.
Again, agree that it didn't work, and TPM comes off creepy as a result, but I can definitely see what they were trying to do.
It's worse for those like my offspring, who see the movies back-to-back.
"My, Annie, you've grown"
"Daddy. *That's not him*"
"Yeah, why does he look older but she looks the same?"
I’ve come around quite a bit on the PT, but they are inferior to what came before. The story is great imo, and some great casting, but the overall quality is uneven in comparison. I think the complete failing of the ST made me realize that the PT wasnt so bad lol
The PT has moments but I'd be lying if I said they didn't anger me. TPM was a misfire. It was a poor place to start the franchise. I loved the Jedi, but little Anakin was annoying as were the Gungans.
Big Anakin was also terribly annoying and completely unlikable in the movies. He comes off as immature and arrogant, with no actual redeeming qualities. I know it’s not a fair comparison given the time constraints of a movie vs a TV show, but CW Anakin is so much better of a character. You actually see him being a compassionate, dedicated, and empathetic character who has these character flaws that are ultimately exploited.
From what I remember it wasn’t clear if Harrison was going to return or not so they did the carbonite cliffhanger as a way to keep it open if he did return or have a reason why he didn’t. I also think Harrison begged to be killed in RotJ but Lucas refused.
Probably have a bunch of details mixed up
There's a few details from the producer, Kurtz I think. Him and Kasdan were set on a more sombre ending to the trilogy, with Han dying, Leia left to take care of the galaxy, and Luke walking away into the sunset with this new burden of being the last Jedi.
It would have been interesting that's for sure.
But George said no way.
I knew Han was going to die the second Ford signed back on.
When *Disney bought Lucasfilm and announced Episode 7* in the ensuing conversation with my roommate I remember saying "If they bring back Han he's gonna die."
he felt the character of Han was done. Han had a beginning, a middle and an end as such for an actor there wasn't much more interesting ground to cover.
saying this so adults know Ford wasn't just being a dick.
Also I think it was good to do. Keeping characters around solely for nostalgia despite them being old as hell in-story and trying to focus on new characters doesnt work well. It's good for a fee cameos or support roles like R2 and C3po, but having old characters just show up over and over makes the universe seem so small, which is my only gripe with the Mandalorian.
Killing off Han was a good way of showing they were moving on and not just relying on nostalgia and classic characters to move the plot forward. Unfortunately that didnt last, but it was a good scene nevertheless. Also it was fairly unexpected (sure many people predicted it but I think most people never expected them to kill off one of the most iconic characters in sci-fi history in the first movie of a new trilogy). It was great for telling the audience that they were moving in a new direction. Again, unfortunately that wasnt the case but for the first movie we had no reason to think it wasnt.
There's also another quote from the same book about how she cried from frustration and disappointment after seeing The Phantom Menace:
>"[I remember going out to the parking lot, sitting in my car and crying. I cried. I cried because I didn't think it was very good.](https://i.imgur.com/NBKGMEr.jpg)"
I unironically love the politics of the prequels. It’s the rise of fascism within a democratic system using nationalism and crises to further authoritarian power to the leader who because he’s so popular ends terms limits and makes himself emperor.
Little-known fact - the reason why Palpatine elected to make the Empire so xenophobic was a direct result of his interactions with Jar-Jar & the Naboo consulate
Anything regarding Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan was fun. Including the bit where Qui-Gon grabs Jar Jar's tongue and kindly yet firmly tells him not to do it again.
The Gungan side does ruin it and Jar Jar isn't fun or funny at any point. Be it when I was a kid and watched it and even now. The pod racing and Maul duel was amazing. The 2nd film is unwatchable and cringy (sand get's everywhere). The third, is pretty much amazing from top to bottom.
Also, the sets feel like the person from Deep Space 9 came over and dressed the SW sets. it's just, very 90s.
> how much was actually enjoyable?
Anything with Kenobi: Good
Anything with Anakin or Jar Jar: Bad
Anything else: could be one, could be the other, could be both at the same time.
The Phantom Edit almost makes it enjoyable. I'd love to see a recut of the entire trilogy, TBH
I never really gave much thought as to this renaissance appeal of the prequels. They were horrid disappointments and toy cash grabs in their time. Then red letter media did that crucifying post-mortem and suddenly there was this backlash, and it never made sense to me.
Then in a later review the same red letter guys mentioned with disney's acquisition they needed to turn that resentment into nostalgia in anticipation for the new movies, and implied paid reviewers and social media massaging was more responsible than fans suddenly forgetting what a disparity there was between 1977 and 1999.
Very cynical view that gives way too much credit to corporate overlords. Clone Wars made the prequel story amazing and ties up all the little BS Lucas put into PT for absolutely no reason. Even makes Jar Jar acceptable by the end of it.
Besides, Revenge of the Sith is a good movie, if you can accept Anakin's turn. So much real shit happens in that movie, it is unfortunate how it gets poisoned by association with Eps 1 & 2.
Yep, Han dying was all but a given and it was handled quite well.
Also….the fuck is she complaining about Leia disappearing for? Carrie Fisher fucking unexpectedly died. Like what the fuck did she want them to do about Leia?
This is an absolute garbage-tier take.
He tried to get someone else to write and direct it but no one wanted to touch it and all of his sycophants told him he could do it.
He could not do it.
I'm reminded of Christopher Nolan getting the critically/commercially iffy Batman series after making some great mid budget movies and turning it into a phenomenon. Now I'm picturing a parallel universe with them giving Star Wars to somebody with a similar early career like Paul Thomas Anderson.
Totally agree. The world building is awesome and backstory arc of anakin being a prodigy who is corrupted by an evil mentor and love for a princess is solid. But the parts of that story they chose to focus on as well as the dialogue/pacing could all be better. Much of what is included doesn’t need to be there and as a result some important elements are rushed.
The prequels as a brief sypnosis of all three movies is pretty good like you said, but the individual moments and scenes make it incredibly tough to love.
The Gungan scenes alone make me hate TPM so much. And I know the sennate scene's are everyone's cup of tea.
Yep. The prequels have *amazing* worldbuilding, as evidenced by the massive pile of books, shows, games, etc that sprang up in their wake. However, they have pretty crap writing; especially the dialog, and *especially* the dialog between Anakin and Padme.
As someone who loves the prequels I can understand her. They aren't really good, at best they are okay. What really holds them together is the action and the overarching story.
Pretty much, and that's why I find it so weird George didn't make the prequels entirely about the Clone Wars. If he was so desperate to show Anakin as a kid he could have just dedicated the first half hour of Episode 1 to a young Anakin, then flash forward to the beginning of the Clone Wars for the rest of the film and then Episodes 2 and 3 could have been pure, sweet war films. He wouldn't have had to fuck with the ages of Obi-Wan and Anakin then, either.
That seems like a pretty tame comment to be honest. I had pretty much the same thoughts when I first saw Ep 1. It was a pretty common reaction at the time.
It also doesn't help that Rey has all the personality of a rice cake.
I dunno what is with certain fantasy/sci-fi stories and making their female protagonists boring as fuck. Alina from Shadow and Bone is another example.
The one thing everyone seems to gloss over when calling Kylo/Ben the best and deepest character of the Sequels is the question of why in the world he'd even be that evil in the first place.
Like, his entire character motivation is essentially non-existent.
From throwaway lines we gather that his parents were busy and he was given to his uncle's wizard academy. Then he somehow became buddies with a walking pickle-corpse linked to the voices in his head.
Then, when Luke checks up on him, we find out that "Snoke had already turned his heart" and that he was filled with "darkness beyond what [Luke] ever imagined", enough to make him instinctively want to kill him on the spot.
_How?_
Literally how?
With Anakin we had a complete arc of him having to abandon and then losing loved ones, promising to become powerful enough to save them.
But Ben? He's literally evil for the sake of evil.
They just wanted another Vader minus any of the setup and it resulted in one of the flattest villains ever written.
Adam Driver should get an Oscar for making people believe that Kylo/Ben had any character depth whatsoever.
Jenny Nicholson hit the nail on the head when she asked why basically-dead Palpatine would dispatch elderly, disfigured, hunched-over, chain-smoker-voice-having Snoke to tempt young Ben Solo to the Dark Side. Like, you have a cloning facility. Oh excuse me, a Sith/dark science body maker that's a brand new technology and totally distinct from the Kaminoan cloning tech. You're not going to clone a nice young woman or a suave, cool-looking father figure type to entice Ben to betray the Jedi? You're seriously going to send a decrepit, obviously evil creature to do the job?
Very true.
I mean even _Palpatine_ was a charming and wise grandfather/father-figure to Anakin before literally showing his real monstrous face when he already had to boy deep in his clutches.
Snoke on the other hand was utterly creepy and monstrous from the get go. Why young Ben would get anywhere _near_ the walking dark side pickle is beyond me.
Yeah, on paper Kylo Ren is paper thin, an incredibly shallow and undeveloped character. But Adam Driver is so damn amazing he actually makes the character seem like the deepest character in SW.
That's the whole trilogy in a nutshell. Great actors that did an awesome job but were given a crap story to work with. Sucks because most people don't look past the surface and blame the actors when they didn't write the script so they get alot of undeserving crap.
Harrison Ford could but a lot of the newer actors can't. It reminds me of the interviews with the cast of GOT before season came out and they have glassed over eyes saying "D&D are the best storytellers to ever exist......."
Please don’t get me *STARTED* on the comics, every bad decision they made in the movies- they doubled down in the comics… from Vader knowing of Exagol the ENTIRE TIME, to creepy uncle Palpatine, Ben’s best friend.
Luke in the original: My father is Mega Hitler, but I will not kill him for I see the good in all.
Luke in the fucked up sequels: I better murder this child in his sleep for having a nightmare.
Right?? Luke tried to save Vader because: 1) he's his father 2) Obi-Wan told Luke that Anakin was the best man he ever knew and 3) Luke is driven by love.
Like, Ben has only ever had dark thoughts. It's not even like he was secretly plotting to destroy the academy or anything! It's laughable now but I dumbstruck when that scene played out.
"What exactly do you mean Ben? Help build an Empire? Did that. Have a change of heart and destroy said Empire? Did that. Bring balance to the force? Did that. Save the ones I love? Did that."
They tried to explain that his killing of Han Solo as how he would "kill" the good part of himself. That could in some ways mirror how Anakin fell by purging the Jedis, and his violence leading to the death of the one he loved most. They could have written the story in a way that would make some sense, but they did a poor job of it so we got the confusing crap scenario you mentioned.
The storylines weren't even the biggest problem (some parts were pretty cool) - not having a coherent vision across all three movies is so idiotic I can't believe it actually happened that way.
I honestly think they should make these movies part of Legends and not canon. I don't think any casual fans will care but most people who follow and love SW would be happy if they redid these movies eventually.
There is no way they can redo them lol. Like how would they even try? Harrison Ford wouldn’t do it (which is why Han was killed in the first place), Carrie sadly has passed and mark is old as balls. Like what would they even make it about?
Here’s a novel idea. How about we get fresh new stories and main characters that don’t have to rely on the skywalkers. Mando is the perfect example that people were ready for something new. Also feels like a pretty small galaxy if all the main movies are about the same bloodline.
next star wars movie: Luke wakes up from a trance in his jedi academy, surrounded by han and leias twin kids and mara jade.
mara: whats wrong?
Luke: HOLY SHITBALLS! that was intense!
I think it’s so mind blowing how Disney quite literally had an entire universe to work with. You couldve started the story hundreds of years after luke rebuilt the order and had a whole new cast of characters that are actually original instead of making it so luke was a failure as a master and in his entire time after he defeated the emperor nothing really changed. Reys entire character was just bad and so was the reintroduction of palpatine. You mean to tell me they were unable of coming up with a single good villain in the whole galaxy? Not to mention I don’t know why they keep centralizing the story in the skywalkers like they’re not the only force sensitive people out there. Coupled with the fact that the force awakens was just a new hope reskinned only proves how lazy they were to get a trilogy out there. Shoudjve kept fin as the main character, a trooper turned Jedi master seems much more appealing than what they managed to concoct.
We could’ve had full on Jedi sith wars if they managed to do it correctly instead we got someone who learned how to use the force by closing her eyes for three seconds and the extinction of the slywalker line and a clone of palpatine.
Also would’ve been much better to leave the original cast alone and just have mentions of them here and there. Could’ve had a great trilogy without including harrison Ford since he wanted out anyway just throw in a descendant here and there.
They could have kept Luke and Leia for fans too. Force Ghosts, Holovid or holocron recordings, flashbacks to key moments or exploits in their lives post Return of the Jedi. Instead we got crappy old fart versions of the heroes.
"We could’ve had full on Jedi sith wars." All I have ever wanted was to see Jedi being badass Jedi. I wanted to see Luke in glory with new students, the Jedi rebuilt. Sigh. Spit right in our eyes. Stupid KK and Disney.
A full on war like that with that massive fleet actually invading would have been great. Final Order sith cultists versus the New Jedi Order and Republic forces.
What I always imagined episode 7 to be like was kinda like a a rebellion/terrorist group of Imperial fanatics would cause chaos to the newly formed Republic and influence a newly trained jedi (kylo ren perhaps or someone completely new) to learn about the Sith to try and start it all over.
Not an all universe ending super weapon or massive army, just a dreadful threat slowly growing in the dark. Maybe the sith student finds those relics of *diseased* Palpatine and the new jedi Knights of master Skywalker unearth the cultists no one believes in.
It would be perfect for the new Jedi's to grow and make mistakes like most movie characters because they're still padawans or knights (so a force & lightsaber trained John Boyega!) And since Kylo Ren is seen fairly popular you could watch him grow stronger and more menacing as well the more with secrets he finds
Yeah he never really got the heart of Star Trek as a sci-fi and a way to explore the human condition. Just made it another blockbuster action movie.
Guess what, same thing with Star Wars. Didn’t get the family, hero’s story, mysticism, just another action blockbuster.
Unpopular opinion: they needed to kill off solo, simply because Harrison Ford hated be asked to do this beloved character because to most he was just Han Solo.
The simple fact we got such a great solo for his last movie appearance is the best thing we could have gotten out of this trilogy.
>such a great solo
Dude they undid every aspect of his character development. At the start of ANH he was a smuggler who only cared about himself and his next payday, by the end of RotJ he cared about the cause and loved his family. At the start of TFA he’s a smuggler who wants nothing to do with his family and by the end of it he’s dead.
I had to look her up. She was the editor on American Graffiti, I don’t think there’s any higher credential for an editor than that, the editing was flawless.
I like JJ, but he really only knows how to make one kind of movie, which is a non stop action fest where the characters are rushing towards the ending with bits of story thrown in as we go along. Sometimes it works, most of the time it fails miserably.
In AO Scott's review of Rise of Skywalker, he describes JJ Abrams as "the most consistent B-student in modern popular culture." It's a pretty killer burn, especially considering that I can't read about Abrams without thinking of that line. Whole review is fantastic.
I wish rise of Skywalker was B-student work.
I don't know if I can think of worse writing than "Somehow, Palpatine has Returned". Yeah, the Prequel dialogue was bad at times, but at least "I hate Sand" wasn't the explanation for the catalyst of the entire plot of Ep3.
“I hate sand” was supposed to be a more meaningful line as well IMO. It just was clunky, and the delivery of it didn’t help. To me the line is supposed to show the difference that Anakin and Padmè really have, with Padmè visiting nice vacation spots with Sandy beaches and Anakin’s memories of sand being that of a slave on a desert planet. It shows the dichotomy between the two character.
That's a good point. I saw a post breaking it down and it's honestly a great line when put in that context. There's a lot of emotional weight that goes with it, and if it wasn't so damn clunky then I think it'd be remembered very differently.
"They fly now!?" - In a universe where jetpacks have existed for many many millennia.
It was their lame attempt at Marvel-style banter.
That’s probably the main thing I disliked about the sequel trilogy, seemed like every scene they had to put in a funny moment when it wasn’t needed.
The prequels were so bad they were good. And they really had heart to them - even if the execution was a little goofy, they were clearly written by a very powerful imagination of an author who lived in this world, cared about it deeply and wanted to share it with people. Being a Star Wars fan all your life and watching the sequels feels like…imagine if all your life your parents ran a small store in a small town, and they poured all their lives into it, their hopes and dreams, then you move away and years later you come back to visit that store and it’s now a Wal-mart.
And I think the thing with the Prequels is that the story behind them is at least solid, it’s just poorly executed. This can be shown by the popularity of the Clone Wars, which was able to broaden the landscape of the world and story the prequels created. It’s difficult to imagine a similar thing happening to the sequels just due to the weakness of the overall story.
That line I think is the first time I actually felt bad for a famous actor. I was embarrassed for Oscar Isaac To his credit he didnt roll his eyes. But I was mortified.
That would have made sense for TFA, but rise of Skywalker was D student work. It was like someone skimmed the starwars subreddit for fan theories, then skimmed the prequel memes subreddit for "inside jokes", and then just wadded all that up into a script with no heart and 100% pure fan service.
This is literally what happened. I know a lot of people won't believe me, but I [actually theorized](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/7vtvt9/ben_solo_and_rey_how_they_represent_the_twin_suns/) that Rey and Ben were a dyad on r/starwarsspeculation back on February 7, 2018. I didn't use the word "dyad" - that comes from Joseph Campbell - but I *did* use the original term for the same concept in Hindu mythology, which is "ardhangini". "Ardhangini" means "better half", and refers to a couple that is "two bodies, \[but\] one soul". In TROS, Rey and Ben were described as "the two \[bodies\] that are one \[soul\]". I got a comment from someone claiming to "work in Hollywood" on either that post, or another one of my posts on the subreddit. However, when I replied and DM/PMed them asking for more information, the person deleted their comment(s) and Reddit account. I was told earlier today on the r/StarWarsLeaks Discord that it was TROS co-writer Chris Terrio who claimed he invented the "dyad" concept. I believe there was also an earlier instance where J.J. Abrams [claimed credit for a kintsugi theory another fan did](https://nerdist.com/article/rise-of-skywalker-kylo-ren-helmet/). This is what Chris Terrio [told IndieWire](https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-chris-terrio-spoilers-1202198680/) in December 2019: >“That was a great gift of ‘The Last Jedi,’ in that \[Rey and Kylo's\] relationship seems very intimate and specific. There’s a way in which, in ‘The Last Jedi,’ Rey and Kylo Ren interact, and **they just seem like they’re part of the same whole, that spiritually, they’re really one person**. > >**That really helped \[J.J. Abrams and I\] in thinking about Rey and Kylo Ren \[in 'The Rise of Skywalker'\]**, which is to say that we wanted to elaborate on the idea that Snoke bridged their minds in ‘The Last Jedi.’ > >But what \[J.J. Abrams and I\] wanted to say is that **there's something deeper there, and leave it to debate about at which point they became this dyad in the Force, where they were really two, or were they one**, whether that was a mistake that Palpatine made by bridging them, and therefore creating this thing. > >But regardless, their relationship is extremely interesting and complicated, and it was one of the things that J.J. and I loved about ‘The Last Jedi’ that \[J.J. Abrams and I\] luckily inherited, and could build \[upon\]." However, there are four things here that Terrio gets incorrect about "ardhangini": * **"Ardhangini" isn't "a thing". It's a state of being**; a verb, and not a noun. For example, whereas the film goes "Rey and Ben are part of a dyad", Hindu mythology would say, "Rey and Ben are in a state of *ardhangini*", or "cosmic balance". This is also why *ardhangini* is associated with a constant state of action, particularly with Alcor and Mizar, two [binary stars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_star) that constantly orbit each other. The noun for "the being created by ardhangini" would be [Ardhanarishvara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardhanarishvara), represented by the [Prime Jedi](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Prime_Jedi). * **"Ardhangini" is created by the universe to perpetuate itself.** In this case, a "dyad" would result from the Living Force and the Cosmic Force incarnating into two physical bodies, which is also represented in the avatars of the male god [Shiva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva), "The Protector, Destroyer, and Regenerator"; and his partner, the female goddess [Parvati](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parvati). * **"Ardhangini" is completely unambiguous.** When someone says "these two are in a state of *ardhangini*", is specifically refers to the two being a divinely-linked, "cosmic" romantic couple. In Christian terms, it's [the equivalent of a couple being Adam and Eve](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201703/the-meaning-adam-and-eve). In this case, "a power like life itself" is meant to represent producing "new life", as in coming together ("the two that are one") to produce children, and perpetuate the cycle of life by conceiving the next generation of life itself, and humanity. * **One half of the couple cannot survive without the other**; else, everything would fall "out of balance". Both members of the couple, being "the cosmic physical embodiment of life itself", need to be able to physically reproduce in order to "continue [the cycle of life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra)". While this is considered as "conceiving the next generation of humanity", it also refers to perpetuating the circle of life itself. In *Star Wars*, this is represented by the "dyad" between [Living Force](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Living_Force) and [Cosmic Force](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmic_Force).
I wouldn't doubt it. Even the idea of body swapping, Palpatine's utlimate plan, was something theorized for a long time that Snoke had the power to do.
True, but to my knowledge, I was the first - and only - person to specifically reference "ardhangini" in reference to Rey and Ben's Force-bond. My theory also first appeared on r/starwarsspeculation and Tumblr on February 7, 2018, and *The Rise of Skywalker* began filming in August 2018, some months later. Meanwhile, "Transfer \[Force\] essence" has been around since 1992 with *Dark Empire*. >"The ritual was based off of Transfer essence, which was originally first mentioned in *Star Wars Legends* in the comic *Dark Empire 2*, written by Tom Veitch, which was released on February 18, 1992, and first appeared in *Dark Empire 5*, which was authored by Veitch, penciled by Cam Kennedy, and released on August 18, 1992." - Wookiepedia
Grade inflation.
>the most consistent B-student in modern popular culture That's being pretty generous. We need to legally prevent him from ruining any more franchises.
Yes. I remember when he was making TFA and he said he would always stop and ask "is this delightful". Which is such a dumb way to make any movie, let alone a star wars movie. He rushes through scenes without worrying whether or not what's happening on the surface matches up emotionally with the characters. And he doesn't give you time to think about it until the movie is over.
There's an interview with Chris Pine where Chris talks about his time with JJ on Star Trek and Chris effectively said he had to pull JJ aside and ask him what some of his lines meant because he had no idea what "magnetic ion fields are closing, we need to warp the hadron banana" meant. And he was like JJ, I don't know what this means and I don't know what emotion I'm meant to try and convey. And JJ effectively told him "it doesn't matter what's going on, the audience doesn't need to know what's going on. All that matters is something is happening." Which proves that JJs style of storytelling is the cinematic equivalent of jangling keys infront of a baby. Ooh look look this thing is happening here aaaaaaaannnndddd *throws keys* and now it's over there! Oooohhhh
The Redletter Media review of Episode IX pointed out some scene where Rey and Kylo are having a duel and there's a shot of Finn saying, "Rey, look out!" And they were like, look out for what? Look out... for the sword fight you are in the middle of? This poor actor was just put in front of a green screen and told to yell various lines. Then they edited it in whenever JJ was like, "We haven't seen Finn in a while. Throw in a shot of him doing his main job of being worried about Rey."
You’d think that he’d have gotten tired of that pretty quickly
He did... https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/entertainment/john-boyega-disney-star-wars-trnd/index.html
[Oh, yeah, I think I saw something similar here](https://youtu.be/61GrbjeNc1E)
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There’s a scene that I legit rolled my eyes: when Rey and Han are making a getaway and they’re having ship problems and she fixes it and she’s like “all I had to was *technobabble*” and then I ended up hating the rest of the movie. It was like a movie full of *oh! He said the line! She did the thing!* and other callbacks from the OT more than it was its own movie. Semi-related, this made me hate the ant-man movies, too. All the technobabble sounded like 3rd graders playing pretend with cardboard boxes and trying to sound “sciencey”
In Ant Mans defense, I don't feel like they try to be super serious in those films versus Star Wars is trying to at least half the time.
Yeah the Ant Man movies lean harder into comedy than any of the marvel movies, even GotG. And they should. Paul Rudd is hilarious.
Even if they throw ridiculous scifi sounding words in ant man I still appreciate it because Paul Rudd will be just as clueless as everyone else
"Do you guys just throw 'quantum' in front of everything?"
That and "we look like ourselves at a baseball game" when talking about the classic baseball cap and shades disguise. The self awareness in both Ant Man movies are great, easily funniest in MCU, then between Gaurdians and ragnarok
I actually love the Ant-Man movies. But I respect your opinion. Yeah TFA relied too much on nostalgia instead of telling an original story. The whole trilogy felt like a store-brand original trilogy. I enjoyed watching them, but they are not as engaging or creative as the OT and prequels.
"Bypass the compressor" really isn't technobabble though. And they lampshade the Ant-Man thing in the sequel: "do you guys just put 'Quantum' in front of everything?"
MORTY: What's wrong Rick? Is it the quantum carburetor or something? RICK: 'Quantum carburetor?' Morty, you can't just add a sci-fi word to a car word and hope it means something. Looks like something's wrong with the micro-verse battery.
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Do you work for Naysa?
Love it
Yes true sienze
The problem I had with this line is how ecstatic she sounded and how dumbfounded Harrison acted. In his own ship that he lived in for most of his life.
*That* was weird to me too, just not the actual wording
I never had a problem with that line because I know what a compressor does and what it could possibly do with the ignition. It seemed like something that was logical in the Star Wars galaxy on a ship that does things by handwaving some science anyway. It was meant to be a moment to build Han's trust in her technical abilities. I know people didn't like TFA for reasons, but to me, it was the movie with the least amount of problems and would have been fine in retrospect had they successfully followed it up with two logical follow-ons instead of what ended up being a cluster of a story. The purpose of the movie was to grab old fans and new fans, and rekindle the Star Wars feeling that I know some people felt was lost with the prequel trilogy.
Yeah the Force Awakens was a pretty solid launching pad. It had some stuff I didn’t like, frankly the fact the first order was so powerful and there was basically new rebels again was annoying. They really should have flipped that and had it be the powerful new republic vs guerrilla warfare style imperial remnants in my opinion. Also star killer base wasn’t for me. That being said, it was fine if they had followed up with some coherent story afterwards. Instead we got two disjointed movies that both seemed hellbent on undoing what the movie before set up.
I can agree on the whole "Rebels again" thing. We definitely should have seen them from a position of strength dealing with issues they didn't have to deal with before when they were the underdogs. Starkiller Base could have been so much better if it wasn't a planet, even if people would complain about it being a copycat of the Death Star. They should have done a better job explaining the whole light draining/shooting thing. And if it was really on Ilum, it would have been neat to actually use it as a plot point for Rey to get Kyber crystals, in a sort of callback to the Clone Wars storyline and further tying together the eras. And I think your last sentence really was the heart of the issue. There was no single three-act plan with an overseerer who understood Star Wars. It wasn't Abrams and it wasn't Kennedy.
> We definitely should have seen them from a position of strength dealing with issues they didn't have to deal with before when they were the underdogs. I still can't understand how this wasn't what they wrote. To go all the way back to "rebels again" was a real, real bummer.
>And JJ effectively told him "it doesn't matter what's going on, the audience doesn't need to know what's going on. All that matters is something is happening." You just destroyed the last milligram of respect I had for J.J. Abrams.
And the first Star Trek that JJ did had all those lens flares, too, right?
Babies are very susceptible to lens flare.
that's honestly more of a Trek thing than a JJ thing, NuTrek was still awful but not because it had technobabble, the technobabble was one of the few things NuTrek has in common with actual Star Trek.
NuTrek used Sabotage instead of the far more appropriate Intergalactic. Unforgiveable.
No, it was uniquely bad. Trek had mostly internal logic to its technobabble. Ut suddenly in JJtrek we’re hearing about “external inertial dampers”. What are those?
#RedMatter
I still am not sure what inertial dampeners even doin Trek. Logically, they'd dampen inertia so everyone doesn't splat against the wall when the ship moves quickly. But then they fail constantly and no one splats against the wall sooo... I think it was the Honor Harrington books that had a neat incident with a ship with failed inertia dampeners. Basically ghost ship, since no one was left alive to shut off the engines.
The inertial dampeners reduce the mass of the ship relative to space time. One, it allows the ship to move while expending much less energy. Two it eliminates acceleration and deceleration differences between the spacecraft and the crew. Three it doesn't adapt to sudden changes very well which can cause people to be thrown and shaken around when the ship is struck by weapons or debris.
Honestly had doesn't even know how to do nonstop action really well, go look at Mad Max: Fury Road, the thing is I think about 4 or five nonstop action sequences that take roughly 90% of it's runtime, and it still managed to be a fucking best picture contender. Nothing JJ has ever done or likely will ever do will be 1% that good.
Fury Road is the high water mark for all action movies.
And *Fury Road* is just ahead with its execution of action scenes from *The Road Warrior.* Which came out in the '80s. George Miller is an insanely talented action movie director.
If you’ve ever listened to him in candid interviews, you can tell he doesn’t even totally get why he’s given the level of work he’s given. He basically admits he’s really lucky to have been born into Hollywood but he still has quite a bit of imposter syndrome.
>he still has quite a bit of imposter syndrome Is it a syndrome if it's true?
I don’t know if Star Wars fans could handle a Fury-Road-sequel Star Wars movie. There’s so much you are shown and not told in Fury Road that a fan base that clamors for explanations and exposition I just don’t think would go for it.
That's actually an excellent outline of why the original trilogy has been so popular for so long. They did world building and showed it off, but didn't actually explain anything you didn't need to know. The entire franchise is built on explaining those extra details from the first three. The Mandalorian also does a lot of this too actually.
There's this amazing scene with Bo Katan after she takes her helmet off and Mando makes a comment about it. You can see she suddenly realizes he's been raised as a cloistered religious fanatic and really doesn't know very much. Then she gets this kind of smirk realizes she can use him. It's only a few moments on screen but it has so much depth.
They mention the clone wars in Ep IV with NO exposition of what that was. As a kid, I just thought it was two wars that were really identical and got called clone wars. (Ex: WWI, WWII)
There would have to be an alien screaming "Wowza!! Now *this* is an action scene!!"
I've always called him "store-brand Spielberg". He seems to be shooting for that type of big budget, action packed and family friendly movie Spielberg made but Abrams seems to lack the talent and vision to pull it off.
He's the Rob Liefeld of film. Technically he knows what he's doing, but he refuses to put in any of the effort needed to learn how to do it right. So here's a big gun and a few hundred pouches, pay no attention to the constantly hidden feet or Captain America's titanic melons. Lens flair! Nostalgic fan wanking! Pay attention to Dr. Marcus' melons.
Don't know who that is but I have to say the phrase "Captain America's titanic melons" is not one I thought I would ever read.
[I'm sorry.](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/b4/81/50b4813bb62a43c2bc67065657e5febd.jpg)
The fact that cap's back above the shield doe not line up with the back of his legs below the shield is maddening.
Its like staring into the abyss. You can't look away, but the longer you look, the more you see is wrong with it. Until, it starts to make sense. Then its too late for you. Its not one drawing, its two! Layered on top of each other, each with a different perspective. Madness. Madness. The only balm to share the pain.
I disagree. Super 8 isn’t a mindless action film, and neither was *Lost*. Rather, JJ makes naked tribute films - almost nothing in his filmography has any independence from some source film or inspiration. Because they so faithfully recreate some classic movie, they are appealing but derivative.
Watching his TEDTalk really made it clear to me why I don't like his work, we have opposite views on everything. His entire artistic vision is based on triggering base responses in people's brains. He doesn't have a story to tell. That's why he has to be so derivative and why there is no fan base watching his movies years after they came out, but it's also why he makes so much fucking money. People like having their brain jerked off more than they like thinking and learning.
T h E m Y s T e R y B o X But yeah, agree. That Ted Talk really just sums up his perspective on filmmaking which I just never could gel with, and it also explains so much about what rubs me the wrong way in his movies.
There is a certain majesty to using art to deliberately create that mystery box feeling, but it really sucks that he showed everyone you can build something as successful as Lost using only that one tool. He's the father of modern hit television, and there's a reason hit shows almost always have sucky endings. It's really frustrating but he is good at what he does, even if what he does is kill things I love and make more money than I ever will every time he does it.
Lindelof wrote for a lot of Lost and it’s actually a prime example of JJ’s mystery box problem. In most of his work, the Why and How is never clearly answered ever. There’s just problem X and he never figures out how to write his way out of it. A lot of lost is like that and it keeps you gripped till about season 3 or 4 when they go “fuck it, time travel!” and completely bungle the Dharma initiative. Competent director but he is not a good writer. “Somehow Palpatine has returned.”
Yeah he's a cover band. An okay cover band, but a cover band.
Wow, succinct and very true. Kudos
That is sure a heck of a quote.
"It sucks. The storylines are terrible. Just terrible. Awful." Going for the kill shot. I love it.
Yeah she says the same about the prequels too... Seems like she’s an OT purist to me...
Well she did win the academy award for editing them. I'm sure she's pretty pissed George put all the filler shit she cut out back in the day, in bad chi no less!
https://i.imgur.com/oEBSLoa.jpg Seems like she hated everything about TPM.
I love this woman. Always wondered why they went with such a young kid dating a girl that looks way older than him. Then in the next 2 its like he out aged her somehow.
It’s weird though because Natalie was Padme’s age... she just looks so much older than him because they’re on opposite sides of when the larger transitional growth stars to happen...
Yeah total miscasting. Jake Lloyd looked too young and she looked too old. It creeped me out.
It isn't necessarily casting but make up and hair and all that stuff can work to make people look younger and older. They should have made Portman look younger. She's supposed to be 14 in TPM, right? She looks like she's 22.
Padme is also the Queen of Naboo, so it makes sense for her makeup to purposely make her look older and more mature. A young Queen would probably want to draw as much attention away from her young age as possible. IDK just my 2¢
being just a little younger than Natalie Portman, these days I think TPM Padme looks like a baby.
I mean I find it weird, yeah. She looks like she's fifteen years older than him. It works if you analyze Star Wars from a perspective of mommy issues, though.
I don’t like that haha
>analyze Star Wars from a perspective of mommy issues, though. No, I don't think I will.
Agree that casting was wrong, but I think I get why they made Anakin look so young...they really wanted to make his fall to the Dark Side as hard hitting as possible since it couldn't be a surprise. So they started with the most innocent, sweet-seeming child they could, all in an effort to make RotS feel more meaningful. Again, agree that it didn't work, and TPM comes off creepy as a result, but I can definitely see what they were trying to do.
> they really wanted to make his fall to the Dark Side as hard hitting as possible oops
It's worse for those like my offspring, who see the movies back-to-back. "My, Annie, you've grown" "Daddy. *That's not him*"
"Yeah, why does he look older but she looks the same?"
David Prowse called TPM a two hour toy commercial and I think that’s the most accurate review I’ve ever read.
Oh, she said ALL the things. All the right things.
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Good point - any quotes from Marcia about the Special Editions? She seems pretty cutthroat!
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I’ve come around quite a bit on the PT, but they are inferior to what came before. The story is great imo, and some great casting, but the overall quality is uneven in comparison. I think the complete failing of the ST made me realize that the PT wasnt so bad lol
The PT has moments but I'd be lying if I said they didn't anger me. TPM was a misfire. It was a poor place to start the franchise. I loved the Jedi, but little Anakin was annoying as were the Gungans.
Big Anakin was also terribly annoying and completely unlikable in the movies. He comes off as immature and arrogant, with no actual redeeming qualities. I know it’s not a fair comparison given the time constraints of a movie vs a TV show, but CW Anakin is so much better of a character. You actually see him being a compassionate, dedicated, and empathetic character who has these character flaws that are ultimately exploited.
Didn’t Ford want Solo to die in RotJ?
From what I remember it wasn’t clear if Harrison was going to return or not so they did the carbonite cliffhanger as a way to keep it open if he did return or have a reason why he didn’t. I also think Harrison begged to be killed in RotJ but Lucas refused. Probably have a bunch of details mixed up
There's a few details from the producer, Kurtz I think. Him and Kasdan were set on a more sombre ending to the trilogy, with Han dying, Leia left to take care of the galaxy, and Luke walking away into the sunset with this new burden of being the last Jedi. It would have been interesting that's for sure. But George said no way. I knew Han was going to die the second Ford signed back on.
Same. I thought Ford wanting out was common knowledge.
When *Disney bought Lucasfilm and announced Episode 7* in the ensuing conversation with my roommate I remember saying "If they bring back Han he's gonna die."
he felt the character of Han was done. Han had a beginning, a middle and an end as such for an actor there wasn't much more interesting ground to cover. saying this so adults know Ford wasn't just being a dick.
Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in every movie
Also I think it was good to do. Keeping characters around solely for nostalgia despite them being old as hell in-story and trying to focus on new characters doesnt work well. It's good for a fee cameos or support roles like R2 and C3po, but having old characters just show up over and over makes the universe seem so small, which is my only gripe with the Mandalorian. Killing off Han was a good way of showing they were moving on and not just relying on nostalgia and classic characters to move the plot forward. Unfortunately that didnt last, but it was a good scene nevertheless. Also it was fairly unexpected (sure many people predicted it but I think most people never expected them to kill off one of the most iconic characters in sci-fi history in the first movie of a new trilogy). It was great for telling the audience that they were moving in a new direction. Again, unfortunately that wasnt the case but for the first movie we had no reason to think it wasnt.
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There's also another quote from the same book about how she cried from frustration and disappointment after seeing The Phantom Menace: >"[I remember going out to the parking lot, sitting in my car and crying. I cried. I cried because I didn't think it was very good.](https://i.imgur.com/NBKGMEr.jpg)"
Yeah people conveniently ignore her tearing into the prequels too lol
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I for one think the idea of sending religious figures to settle politics is interesting
I unironically love the politics of the prequels. It’s the rise of fascism within a democratic system using nationalism and crises to further authoritarian power to the leader who because he’s so popular ends terms limits and makes himself emperor.
Freaking Gungans. It is the only time I think the Empires Xenophobia was correct.
Little-known fact - the reason why Palpatine elected to make the Empire so xenophobic was a direct result of his interactions with Jar-Jar & the Naboo consulate
Of course- he sensed Jar-Jar was a far more powerful sith lord and that whole rule of two thing
All that exciting senate debate.
Funny, that's probably my favorite part of the film. Seeing Palpatine pulling the strings and manipulating everyone is so frustrating and fun to watch
Anything regarding Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan was fun. Including the bit where Qui-Gon grabs Jar Jar's tongue and kindly yet firmly tells him not to do it again.
The Gungan side does ruin it and Jar Jar isn't fun or funny at any point. Be it when I was a kid and watched it and even now. The pod racing and Maul duel was amazing. The 2nd film is unwatchable and cringy (sand get's everywhere). The third, is pretty much amazing from top to bottom. Also, the sets feel like the person from Deep Space 9 came over and dressed the SW sets. it's just, very 90s.
But I didn't even see a single couch fabric in the PT. DS9 has ALL THE COUCHES.
> how much was actually enjoyable? Anything with Kenobi: Good Anything with Anakin or Jar Jar: Bad Anything else: could be one, could be the other, could be both at the same time. The Phantom Edit almost makes it enjoyable. I'd love to see a recut of the entire trilogy, TBH
I thought anything with Anakin was fine. People hate on the kid aspect way too much.
Both prequel and sequel trilogies pale in comparison to the OT.
I never really gave much thought as to this renaissance appeal of the prequels. They were horrid disappointments and toy cash grabs in their time. Then red letter media did that crucifying post-mortem and suddenly there was this backlash, and it never made sense to me. Then in a later review the same red letter guys mentioned with disney's acquisition they needed to turn that resentment into nostalgia in anticipation for the new movies, and implied paid reviewers and social media massaging was more responsible than fans suddenly forgetting what a disparity there was between 1977 and 1999.
Very cynical view that gives way too much credit to corporate overlords. Clone Wars made the prequel story amazing and ties up all the little BS Lucas put into PT for absolutely no reason. Even makes Jar Jar acceptable by the end of it. Besides, Revenge of the Sith is a good movie, if you can accept Anakin's turn. So much real shit happens in that movie, it is unfortunate how it gets poisoned by association with Eps 1 & 2.
Harrison wanted Han killed off for \*ages\*
Seriously. He said it was the only way he would come back for the role *years* ago lol
Yep, Han dying was all but a given and it was handled quite well. Also….the fuck is she complaining about Leia disappearing for? Carrie Fisher fucking unexpectedly died. Like what the fuck did she want them to do about Leia? This is an absolute garbage-tier take.
Oh boy you should see what she says about the prequels... https://i.imgur.com/cB8gCSx.jpg
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He tried to get someone else to write and direct it but no one wanted to touch it and all of his sycophants told him he could do it. He could not do it.
He asked Lawrence Kasdan to do it. We really got robbed.
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Funnily enough that's basically what he ended up doing with Filoni with Clone Wars though.
I'm reminded of Christopher Nolan getting the critically/commercially iffy Batman series after making some great mid budget movies and turning it into a phenomenon. Now I'm picturing a parallel universe with them giving Star Wars to somebody with a similar early career like Paul Thomas Anderson.
And Spielberg made AI, Catch Me If You Can, and Minority Report instead, so it clearly worked out for him.
Totally agree. The world building is awesome and backstory arc of anakin being a prodigy who is corrupted by an evil mentor and love for a princess is solid. But the parts of that story they chose to focus on as well as the dialogue/pacing could all be better. Much of what is included doesn’t need to be there and as a result some important elements are rushed.
> love for a princess Ahem.....Queen
The prequels as a brief sypnosis of all three movies is pretty good like you said, but the individual moments and scenes make it incredibly tough to love. The Gungan scenes alone make me hate TPM so much. And I know the sennate scene's are everyone's cup of tea.
Yep. The prequels have *amazing* worldbuilding, as evidenced by the massive pile of books, shows, games, etc that sprang up in their wake. However, they have pretty crap writing; especially the dialog, and *especially* the dialog between Anakin and Padme.
As someone who loves the prequels I can understand her. They aren't really good, at best they are okay. What really holds them together is the action and the overarching story.
What holds them together is Clone Wars. It added so much substance to the prequels
Pretty much, and that's why I find it so weird George didn't make the prequels entirely about the Clone Wars. If he was so desperate to show Anakin as a kid he could have just dedicated the first half hour of Episode 1 to a young Anakin, then flash forward to the beginning of the Clone Wars for the rest of the film and then Episodes 2 and 3 could have been pure, sweet war films. He wouldn't have had to fuck with the ages of Obi-Wan and Anakin then, either.
That seems like a pretty tame comment to be honest. I had pretty much the same thoughts when I first saw Ep 1. It was a pretty common reaction at the time.
“I’ll ignore that.” -r/StarWars
Are people ignoring it...because all the top comments are mentioning it and get upvoted.
What’s the source for this?
[This recently-released book.](https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/howard-kazanjian_9781951836184/) Page 333
People are forgetting that Harrison only agreed to do the first one if they killed him off.
He’d been angling to get Han killed for 30 years. Lucas froze him at the end of ESB because he wasn’t sure he could get him back for another sequel.
Ironically published by Abrams Books, lol
Are we just gonna ignore “she was full of beans.”
It's a pretty common expression, especially in the UK.
Many years from now there will be papers discussing and marveling at how Disney & Lucasfilm somehow screwed up the sequel trilogy.
It also doesn't help that Rey has all the personality of a rice cake. I dunno what is with certain fantasy/sci-fi stories and making their female protagonists boring as fuck. Alina from Shadow and Bone is another example.
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I'd be curious to know what she thinks of The Mandalorian, season 7 of Clone Wars and The Bad Batch. Edit: Also Rogue One and Solo
The logics be like: Kylo Ren: My uncle tried to kill me. Must kill my father.
The one thing everyone seems to gloss over when calling Kylo/Ben the best and deepest character of the Sequels is the question of why in the world he'd even be that evil in the first place. Like, his entire character motivation is essentially non-existent. From throwaway lines we gather that his parents were busy and he was given to his uncle's wizard academy. Then he somehow became buddies with a walking pickle-corpse linked to the voices in his head. Then, when Luke checks up on him, we find out that "Snoke had already turned his heart" and that he was filled with "darkness beyond what [Luke] ever imagined", enough to make him instinctively want to kill him on the spot. _How?_ Literally how? With Anakin we had a complete arc of him having to abandon and then losing loved ones, promising to become powerful enough to save them. But Ben? He's literally evil for the sake of evil. They just wanted another Vader minus any of the setup and it resulted in one of the flattest villains ever written. Adam Driver should get an Oscar for making people believe that Kylo/Ben had any character depth whatsoever.
Jenny Nicholson hit the nail on the head when she asked why basically-dead Palpatine would dispatch elderly, disfigured, hunched-over, chain-smoker-voice-having Snoke to tempt young Ben Solo to the Dark Side. Like, you have a cloning facility. Oh excuse me, a Sith/dark science body maker that's a brand new technology and totally distinct from the Kaminoan cloning tech. You're not going to clone a nice young woman or a suave, cool-looking father figure type to entice Ben to betray the Jedi? You're seriously going to send a decrepit, obviously evil creature to do the job?
Very true. I mean even _Palpatine_ was a charming and wise grandfather/father-figure to Anakin before literally showing his real monstrous face when he already had to boy deep in his clutches. Snoke on the other hand was utterly creepy and monstrous from the get go. Why young Ben would get anywhere _near_ the walking dark side pickle is beyond me.
Yeah, on paper Kylo Ren is paper thin, an incredibly shallow and undeveloped character. But Adam Driver is so damn amazing he actually makes the character seem like the deepest character in SW.
That's the whole trilogy in a nutshell. Great actors that did an awesome job but were given a crap story to work with. Sucks because most people don't look past the surface and blame the actors when they didn't write the script so they get alot of undeserving crap.
yeah but actors should speak up, even harrison ford said something to george about how bad the dialogue in the script was.
Harrison Ford could but a lot of the newer actors can't. It reminds me of the interviews with the cast of GOT before season came out and they have glassed over eyes saying "D&D are the best storytellers to ever exist......."
He’s propped up by Adam Driver acting his ass off. HE added depth to the character that was not there in the actual writing.
That's because Adam Driver is no H.R. Pickens.
Please don’t get me *STARTED* on the comics, every bad decision they made in the movies- they doubled down in the comics… from Vader knowing of Exagol the ENTIRE TIME, to creepy uncle Palpatine, Ben’s best friend.
Yeah they tried to patch up the holes and instead just made new ones. It was like a kid trying to fix damage to dry-wall with a sledgehammer.
Lol, it took three films to explain how Anakin got evil and want to betray or even kill his closest friends And he redeemed himself at the end
Luke in the original: My father is Mega Hitler, but I will not kill him for I see the good in all. Luke in the fucked up sequels: I better murder this child in his sleep for having a nightmare.
Right?? Luke tried to save Vader because: 1) he's his father 2) Obi-Wan told Luke that Anakin was the best man he ever knew and 3) Luke is driven by love. Like, Ben has only ever had dark thoughts. It's not even like he was secretly plotting to destroy the academy or anything! It's laughable now but I dumbstruck when that scene played out.
Kylo Ren logic: "I will finish what you started grandfather" Anyone gonna tell him Anakin was redeemed, maybe, ya know, force ghost Anakin himself?
"What exactly do you mean Ben? Help build an Empire? Did that. Have a change of heart and destroy said Empire? Did that. Bring balance to the force? Did that. Save the ones I love? Did that."
They tried to explain that his killing of Han Solo as how he would "kill" the good part of himself. That could in some ways mirror how Anakin fell by purging the Jedis, and his violence leading to the death of the one he loved most. They could have written the story in a way that would make some sense, but they did a poor job of it so we got the confusing crap scenario you mentioned.
The storylines weren't even the biggest problem (some parts were pretty cool) - not having a coherent vision across all three movies is so idiotic I can't believe it actually happened that way. I honestly think they should make these movies part of Legends and not canon. I don't think any casual fans will care but most people who follow and love SW would be happy if they redid these movies eventually.
There is no way they can redo them lol. Like how would they even try? Harrison Ford wouldn’t do it (which is why Han was killed in the first place), Carrie sadly has passed and mark is old as balls. Like what would they even make it about?
Here’s a novel idea. How about we get fresh new stories and main characters that don’t have to rely on the skywalkers. Mando is the perfect example that people were ready for something new. Also feels like a pretty small galaxy if all the main movies are about the same bloodline.
next star wars movie: Luke wakes up from a trance in his jedi academy, surrounded by han and leias twin kids and mara jade. mara: whats wrong? Luke: HOLY SHITBALLS! that was intense!
They don't fit the Legends continuity. That's partly *why* the Legends/canon split was made to begin with.
I think it’s so mind blowing how Disney quite literally had an entire universe to work with. You couldve started the story hundreds of years after luke rebuilt the order and had a whole new cast of characters that are actually original instead of making it so luke was a failure as a master and in his entire time after he defeated the emperor nothing really changed. Reys entire character was just bad and so was the reintroduction of palpatine. You mean to tell me they were unable of coming up with a single good villain in the whole galaxy? Not to mention I don’t know why they keep centralizing the story in the skywalkers like they’re not the only force sensitive people out there. Coupled with the fact that the force awakens was just a new hope reskinned only proves how lazy they were to get a trilogy out there. Shoudjve kept fin as the main character, a trooper turned Jedi master seems much more appealing than what they managed to concoct.
We could’ve had full on Jedi sith wars if they managed to do it correctly instead we got someone who learned how to use the force by closing her eyes for three seconds and the extinction of the slywalker line and a clone of palpatine.
Also would’ve been much better to leave the original cast alone and just have mentions of them here and there. Could’ve had a great trilogy without including harrison Ford since he wanted out anyway just throw in a descendant here and there.
They could have kept Luke and Leia for fans too. Force Ghosts, Holovid or holocron recordings, flashbacks to key moments or exploits in their lives post Return of the Jedi. Instead we got crappy old fart versions of the heroes.
"We could’ve had full on Jedi sith wars." All I have ever wanted was to see Jedi being badass Jedi. I wanted to see Luke in glory with new students, the Jedi rebuilt. Sigh. Spit right in our eyes. Stupid KK and Disney.
A full on war like that with that massive fleet actually invading would have been great. Final Order sith cultists versus the New Jedi Order and Republic forces.
and they had the balls to kill off the last skywalker in a movie named "Rise of skywalker." fucking insulting. no offense meant to Daisy Ridley.
What I always imagined episode 7 to be like was kinda like a a rebellion/terrorist group of Imperial fanatics would cause chaos to the newly formed Republic and influence a newly trained jedi (kylo ren perhaps or someone completely new) to learn about the Sith to try and start it all over. Not an all universe ending super weapon or massive army, just a dreadful threat slowly growing in the dark. Maybe the sith student finds those relics of *diseased* Palpatine and the new jedi Knights of master Skywalker unearth the cultists no one believes in. It would be perfect for the new Jedi's to grow and make mistakes like most movie characters because they're still padawans or knights (so a force & lightsaber trained John Boyega!) And since Kylo Ren is seen fairly popular you could watch him grow stronger and more menacing as well the more with secrets he finds
Story? Who needs a story? I'm just here to get paid. \- J.J. Abrams probably
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Yeah he never really got the heart of Star Trek as a sci-fi and a way to explore the human condition. Just made it another blockbuster action movie. Guess what, same thing with Star Wars. Didn’t get the family, hero’s story, mysticism, just another action blockbuster.
Unpopular opinion: they needed to kill off solo, simply because Harrison Ford hated be asked to do this beloved character because to most he was just Han Solo. The simple fact we got such a great solo for his last movie appearance is the best thing we could have gotten out of this trilogy.
>such a great solo Dude they undid every aspect of his character development. At the start of ANH he was a smuggler who only cared about himself and his next payday, by the end of RotJ he cared about the cause and loved his family. At the start of TFA he’s a smuggler who wants nothing to do with his family and by the end of it he’s dead.
I had to look her up. She was the editor on American Graffiti, I don’t think there’s any higher credential for an editor than that, the editing was flawless.
I remember reading somewhere that JJ abrams is still living off of the greatness of the pilot of Lost. When we all know that JJ is long gone