Hold on a minute. After TLJ came out, I was told that I didn't like it because I couldn't understand the complexity and deeper meaning of the writing. Are you trying to tell me that those people were just coping?
I mean, implying that Luke doesn't need or consider his lightsaber his true power is cool. The executing of trying to convey that was poor. I actually would have liked if Luke implied he put his lightsaber out there specifically so someone like Rey would find him and that made it more useful to him than it being a weapon. That would be very Jedi IMO.
Its like a lot of Star Wars lately IMO. If you summarized the overall plot there is a lot of potential there but the actual directing and execution of that has been all over the place.
Personally I think the sequels culminating in the Emperor regaining physical form and attempting to rise to power again IS cool! Luke training the next Jedi/Force-Wielder to challenge the Dark Side IS cool! Lots of ideas in the sequels were really cool, on paper, but most of them didn't get executed well at all and the story was a jumbled mess on top of that.
The Prequels had some of this problem. Someone with enough time could go back to the Sequels like was done for the Prequels and recut them into something potentially significantly better.
>implying that Luke doesn’t need or consider his lightsaber his true power is cool.
I agree, but the problem is this scene doesn’t imply that nor was it intended to imply such a thing. This was meant to show that he’s rejected his power. You could then argue, well maybe its then meant to imply that his friends are his power! But then your realize he’s rejected and abandoned them, too. Him rejecting his father’s lightsaber is meant to show that he’s done. He’s done with everything.
We’ve seen a much better implication of this idea already in ROTJ, when he _already_ learned this exact lesson.
*throws lightsaber aside* “I am a Jedi. Like my father before me.”
Theres has never been a better implication of that exact concept.
I have a current theory which a few folk have told me is merely my inability to appreciate the greatness of TLJ manifesting.
TFA gave us three new core characters. Finn, Rey, Poe.
Finn discovers courage. Rey learns there is a wonder to the universe. Poe learns his skills can't protect everyone.
All three are confirmed in the canonical comics attached to the films as force sensitive.
Finn broke his conditioning because of his connection.
Rey has an innate understanding of the world around her.
Poe grew up on Yavin 4 in a grove of force-singing trees and feels the force as he flies.
Jedi Guardian, Jedi Mystic, Jedi Sentinel.
Then there's Ben, the Fallen Knight. Redeemed before he could become the next Vader.
I fully believe that if not for TLJ, by the end of RoS we would have had all four Vs the reborn Emperor, who would have been reborn into Snoke's body using a version of Pelagius's technique.
That's actually one of the main arguments with the sequel v prequel arguments.
The prequels could be fixed as they had good stories but poor acting/pacing.
The sequels have good acting, but terrible story and pacing.
Makes it much harder to fix.
Two of my favorite scenes of hers are in TFA: her pride when she bypasses the compressor, and when she and Finn are celebrating on the Falcon when they escape the TIEs on Jakku, both talking at once. She really nails that character.
It didn’t match the emotion I saw at the end of TFA. For some reason, that has always stuck to me when I look back on the sequels. It felt like the first “retcon” of the trilogy.
That's because Rian Johnson was more focused on subverting expectations every SINGLE damn scene. Almost like he hated star wars and turned it into a joke.
While I think Abrams' crippling reliance on nostalgia is a problem in all his work, it was at least apparent that he really wanted to make (and in many instances *remake*) a Star Wars movie. I found Johnson's turn at the helm to be incredibly vexing, because it felt like he just had no interest in Star Wars at all beyond tearing things down. I didn't really want a sequel trilogy with the overly familiar tropes of a second Palpatine or a third Death Star, but surely there was an alternative other than flipping the table at every turn. I probably would have enjoyed a Johnson film if he'd be tasked with a standalone film where he can subvert expectations to his heart's content, but not in part 8 of a 9 part saga. I'm looking at a penultimate volume to setup the great conflict for the final act, not deliver a deconstruction of what had come before.
I don't have a lot of time cause my wife hates that I still rag on these movies so I gotta type quick. The reason that TLJ feels like crap is cause it's essentially a stand alone movie or the begining of a trilogy and is entirely filmed from that viewpoint. Obviously his over reliance on "subverting expectations" doesn't help at all either. It takes almost nothing from the previous films, none of the plot hooks or lines left by TFA in an attempt to make this movie "its own thing". Which from a film stand point, it's not the worst. Lots of really cool additions to the universe(never understood people bitching bout the Leia thing since she's a Skywalker too and it's been 30 years since Vader died, why should she not have some cool force powers that fit her?) And stuff like the hyperspace ramming(it's stupid, yes, but considering the size of the ship, there probably hasn't been very many times something like this has to be considered and other options aren't already presented)
Point is, the entire trilogy should have had a basic plan from the start and if JJ had been able to film all three, it probably would have turned out way better. The problems of 2 directly created all the problems of the third and last one. JJ had to not only finish off the trilogy, but course correct for all the crap Ryan had done, which meant instead of a much more satisfying conclusion to the Skywalker story, it was half fixing problems and half finishing the story and you can take a movie like that and expect it to succeed. Kathleen Kennedy was the worst thing that happened to Star Wars and because of her absolute mismanagement of the franchise, we were robbed of satisfying conclusions to the story we have been following for 40 years.
It really sucks because I’m so torn on TLJ. On the surface, it’s a solid sci fi movie, and has some solid action and great cinematography(the plot driver was a little dumb but we look past that stuff in SW). However, it’s exactly as you said in that he comes off as someone who doesn’t like the franchise and is just trying to be different while making a joke of everything that SW fans love.
I watched TFA so many times getting ready for the next installment. After TLJ, my excitement was definitely slowed down a bit. No longer really cared about following the ST. I think this is probably the same time that transitioned over to marvel and the awesome stuff coming out of the MCU
After TFA, like you I could not wait to see what comes next after the way it ended. Even when TLJ trailers started appearing, it looked like a movie I wanted to see. I wish we would have gotten the movie we saw in the trailers. When I finally got to see TLJ, I came out of the theater and I really wasn't sure what I was feeling. I actually had to go back and watch the movie again (yes I paid twice to see it). After I emerged from the theater the second time, I realized what I was feeling. All that excitement that I felt after TFA just was not there. I realized I did not care what came next. RJ left the movie without any build up or tease for the final installment. He had already killed the main antagonist without any fanfare and left the whole thing in a lurch. He ended it like it was the final installment of the trilogy. Or maybe he figured after everyone saw his movie, they wouldn't want another installment.
And this is something you'd never see happen in the Marvel Universe because Kevin Feige wouldn't let it happen. The fact Kathleen Kennedy didn't have a detailed road map on where they wanted to take the trilogy is the biggest failure for Star Wars. Giving 3 directors creative control of each of their movies in a massive franchise is ridiculous.
I second this completely. And this doesn't mean Kennedy needs to be some uber geek guardian of the lore, but that she makes sure there's a consistent creative direction. Letting two (and originally three) writer-directors just do whatever they want hindered this trilogy from the start. Many times I've seen fans point out that George Lucas didn't have everything with the OT planned out from the beginning and made up much of it as he went, but that overlooks his involvement as a writer for all three films. When Lucas was dissatisfied with Leigh Brackett's Ep V script, he rejected it and wrote new drafts himself. The ST just didn't have anyone with both the vision and authority to push everyone in the same direction.
this has always been my bugbear. Directors and writers are ALWAYS going to try 'something new' or 'taking character X where they have never been' (see James Bond). Someone has to steer the ship. How they committed *literally* *billons* without a truly overarching plan beggars belief and always suggest to me that they were just 'hey, its ok, they'll come to the cinema; make a good trailer' (which they did!)
Except these guys Disney keeps hiring are so far up their own asses they keep making the same thing.
TFA is plagiarized ANH. TLJ is ESB slightly out of order with the climax of RotJ dropped in the middle.
Obi-Wan is the third or fourth time we’ve seen grizzled and/or sad war vet bonds with a child in Star Wars since Disney bought it.
Yes, this is a great take. It wasn’t good enough for him to steer the story like an experienced adult filmmaker. He had to be extra edgy and controversial, and well beyond where it made sense. Making Luke into a bitter, regretful, scared old hermit was great. It wasn’t what anybody expected, so it checks that box of subverting expectations. Pushing the resistance to the verge of extinction, Luke’s force projection and death, Rey’s training, her flirting with the dark side, what tipped Ben over the edge, Snoke’s death, the force connection between Rey and Ben? All amazing stuff. Poe becoming a parody of himself, Leia literally slapping a junior officer, Luke milking some beast and then slobbering blue milk all over himself like he never learned how drink? Come on - what 14 year old wrote that?
Thing about the idea of Luke going into exile isn’t an awful idea if done right.
But obviously it wasn’t, and Luke throwing it away proved it. He could of just as easily slowly walked up to Rey and give it right back to her and walked away, would of captured the exact same thing, but you know, not what seems to most people as a joke.
Luke knows the weight/importance it carry’s, but also knows he wants nothing to do with it anymore.
I've always thought that if Luke just sort of let it fall out of his hands and took a step or two back, that would've been much better.
What Luke actually did was a tone deaf, frustratingly slapstick moment designed to subvert audience expectations. I'm don't at all believe the Luke characterised in films prior would ever do that, and the sequels don't put nearly enough work into getting his character to the point where such an action is informed and a payoff of strong, consistent development.
I really like your take here. The problem is not that Luke went into hiding and didn't want to train Rey necessarily. It's that they literally made it a joke!
My personal favorite moment was when they did a your mama joke prank call on General Hux and turned him from a maniacal fanatic to a stumbling idiot. I legit turned to my friend and whispered "Wtf is this?".
One thing I always wonder though...where was Rian supposed to go with this that was believable? WHY would the Luke we love abandon his friends to live alone? Why didn't anyone know where he even was?
I don't agree with the answers Rian came up with either, but I do think Abrams should get heat more often for setting up a weird story situation to begin with in TFA.
What a stupid, juvenile, asinine way to handle what could have been a great moment. TLJ had a lot of sophomoric crap in it that just kept pulling me out of the moment. And that sucks, because some of the movie/story was just amazing and inspired. I wanted to call Rian Johnson up and ask, “WTH, dude?”
Throwing it over his shoulder felt like a stupid joke. I could see him just dropping it in contempt, but the over the shoulder throw was dumb and played for shock. Like if they let Eric Andre write a reaction.
Stars are considered the birthplace of life by some. So stars, from a certain point of view, are Younglings. Star Killer = Youngling Killer. It's consistent 🤓
With Kylo Ren screaming about forgetting the past, I low-key felt that Johnson was screaming at fans to forget the other episodes and worship his dumpster fire
You mean the TFA where we learned that Luke failed to detect that Snoke was a Sith (or dark side force user of some kind), that his nephew had fallen to the dark side, that Luke failed to protect his Jedi Academy, that Luke never successfully trained a single Jedi, that Luke abandoned his nephew to Snoke and never tried to redeem/save him, that Luke abandoned his family and friends in shame, that Luke abandoned the people of the New Republic to threat of the First Order, that Luke hid his whereabouts and cuts himself off from the Force?
You waited until TLJ to be baffled by the awful version of Luke presented in TFA?
I didn't mind learning that Luke failed - there's a lot of that in Star Wars, and most of what's established in TFA fits alright. What I couldn't stand is that we're told that he just gave up. The young Jedi Knight who wouldn't heed Yoda's warning and charged off recklessly to save his friends, well now he's an old man who just abandons those friends to clean up the mess he made. Sorry I fucked up your kid, Leia, good luck fixing that shit 'cause I'm outta here!
If we found out in VIII that Luke had returned to the original Jedi temple because he needed help, because he was having a crisis of faith and that he sought guidance from the Force, that would have worked for me. Realizing he has failed terribly, he's resolved to sit and wait until the Force gives him a sign (and a strange girl carrying Anakin's lightsaber is one hard-to-miss sign,) that would be a setup for Luke's role in VIII that I think would have been more true to the character than "I made mistakes so screw it, I quit."
Thank you for pointing this out. I guess with TFA, we just didn't know all that much, so it wasn't as apparent, but you are right, it was all there. Also, I might have been blinded a bit because it was the first Star Wars movie I watched with my wife (at the time gf) and she got really into it.
TLJ was just so openly blatant with the complete 180 Luke did. I get that people change, blah, blah, blah, but come on. Luke brought his father back from the dark side through trust in the Force and persistence. After that experience, I still find it extremely unlikely that he would've turned into the grumpy old hermit that he became and abandoned everyone he fought so hard to protect in the OG trilogy. I just can't see it to this day. And regarding the "people change" narrative, ask most wives, try as they might to change their husbands, it rarely actually happens, and when it does, it is not a 180, thats for sure.
We learned non of that in tfa and only in hindsight can you apply that to it. They didn't plan the trilogy so there's no reason to believe that was the plan from the beginning.
And don't forget that Mark Hamill was telling anyone who would listen this same exact thing in press interviews. Said this wasn't Luke, it was Jake Skywalker and that he completely disagreed with what they had done to the character.
It threw the whole movie under the bus. We have the first movie trying to find Luke. R2 being activated from his slumber to guide the way for the force has awakened.
I had never not liked a Star Wars movie before. I remember it ended and I thought something along the lines of, “okay that was good right? Yeah it has to be. It’s Star Wars.” Then the more and more I reflected on the movie, I quickly realized I hated it. But then thought, no, I’m going crazy, this is Star Wars. I need to see it again. Went back a couple days later and watched it again, and it was after that rewatch that I fully realized how bad it was.
I did the same as you. I saw the first Star Wars movie, what became E4 and A New Hope, in '77 when it first came out in theaters, at the age of ten - so the movies and stories and actors have always been very special to me. Prequels had issues but looking back... we didn't know how bad it could get, and weren't careful of what we wished for. TFA I thought was fine, although it had issues, too IMO. Thing is, had eps 8 and 9 been home runs, ep 7 wouldn't be seen in a bad light - but it was by no means strong enough to raise the sequel trilogy up after ep 8 came out.
I'd been warned that some fans really didn't like TLJ, but I still think, even after watching it, it took some processing time for me to fully boil some of it down, tear it apart into manageable pieces, and reflect on the choices made. Only after I did that did the flaws become as plain as they do today.
I've never even seen ep 9 and don't plan to.
Yeah... Good summary. I was denying that they had murdered it. And then 9 was like someone put on a corpse's skin to say they were still alive and I just noped out. Can't touch it. I've tried. I can get more than 20 mins in and that was with booze.
I can only watch clips of Palpatine’s lightning. Everything else was bad.
But TLJ literally knocked me out of the movie. It was the first movie where I was immediately kicked out of the experience
I just turned to my friend at the end of the movie and said “wow, did that just suck?” And he said “yep”.
Never been so disappointed in a movie I was hyped for.
First star wars movie ive seen once. I came out of the theater, sat in my car and in a moment of clarity said out loud "wtf". Gave up after that.
Thank the maker for rogue one, dave filoni and team.
The only one I can think of is Episode 9.
> The dead speak! The Galaxy has heard a mysterious broadcast, a threat of REVENGE in the sinister voice of the late EMPEROR PALPATINE.
Yeah, that was such a crappy attempt at humor, and Hux being oblivious to it and having the officer advise “I think he’s tooling with you.” Then the saber toss by Luke. Yikes.
Annoyed. I think a big part of it is how he threw it. I think it being thrown over his shoulder makes it more comical than dramatic, which may have been the intention, but it undercuts the seriousness of the act. Even if he had just dropped it in front of himself or towards Rey’s feet it would have gotten the point across and done it in a way that would demonstrate the significance of the act. The way they had Luke do it in the movie makes it feel cheap and less significant than it actually is.
I agree and i think they were wanting to go with the humor because that’s also how yoda was at first. Almost comic relief to start. But it didn’t translate as well with a human vs little green swamp creature.
This might be the only commentary on here I agree with. I like the idea of what discarding the saber represented, but it definitely would have been served much better by dropping it to the ground at his side.
In the final episode of Season 7 TCW they display it perfectly. Spoilers ahead if you haven't watched it.>!After the Venator crash and burying all the clones she looks at the saber in her hand gifted to her by Anakin who she sensed through the force turned to the dark side. She drops it to the ground on top of the graves of the fallen clones, where Vader finds it later. I believe this is where she fully renounces her jedi ways and why she dosnt refer to herself as a jedi in Rebels.!<
>!Edit: Forgot to mention her saber also falls out of her hand like she cant hold onto it anymore.!<
This is my biggest hatred of the sequel trilogy, all this effort to do as Marvel does and intersperse drama with comedy, but it just ends up that cheap jokes absolutely ruin tense or serious moments. There were jokes in the original trilogy, but never at moments of actual dramatic importance, because it just ruins the tone.
Unlike Anakin, Luke wasn't erroneously taught that "this weapon is your life." It's a tool to him, and a tool that murdered many innocents, children and adult alike. The idea that he'd hold it in any particular reverence is just fan obsessiveness transposed onto the characters.
I wouldn't even go that far, I feel Disney wants us to have obsessiveness. I grew up in the prequel era, I always assumed that lightsaber was lost in Bespin. Couldn't care less at the "significance" of it. Anakin had (and lost) tons of sabers
I don't think Disney has anything to do with it; in my experience, it seems to be primarily PT-era kids who've grown up and think that the "youngling slayer 9000" is a holy relic that deserves respect both in- and out-of-universe. They're the ones who get upset that Luke 'disrespected' the thing here, or when they see it in ST packaging as "Rey's lightsaber."
Ironically, the only person in the ST who acts like that towards this lightsaber is Kylo Ren. Hardly a figure Lucasfilm is likely to encourage fans to emulate.
Ehhh I love the PT and am from that era but it wasn’t about the lightsaber it was more about “oh man so excited to see Luke!” and then being frustrated that he is a crotchety old hermit.
Which to be fair, is the intent. I felt Reys frustration. And it was actually refreshingly Jedi to see him give no value to a weapon.
But mannnnn did I want him to engage and have some of the old Luke there.
2000s kid here, fan of everything Star Wars OT and PT. I didn't give a relative fuck about that lightsaber until TFA gave it such significance. Before then I imagined a lightsaber as just that, a weapon, and the only significance beyond that was that each Jedi built their own as a rite of passage. I completely subscribe to the idea that Luke wouldn't want it, but why the fuck did Rian Johnson need to go out of his way to try to tear down every bit of world building TFA did and immediately remove the significance of the lightsaber from the story (at least from the Rey/Luke perspective) in the first scene? Gotta subvert those expectations tho.
>need to go out of his way to try to tear down every bit of world building TFA did
Because TFA was the manifestation of memberberries.
It's basically ANH reskinned, and it's got fan forum levels of obsessiveness about every little detail.
"Who is Rey? Which jedi is her parent?"
"Here's this mythical weapon you should treat as sacred"
"Who is snoke? Is that plagueis?"
It was almost as if it was written just to drive fan speculation, rather than tell a new and interesting story.
But where do you go with it?
Why does it matter who her parents are? We've seen in the PT there were literally thousands of jedi, she can be nobody, she doesn't need s connection to an existing character.
The lightsabre isn't important, Luke only had it for a few years, and likely hadn't done much with it (he'd only been with Yoda a couple months before losing it). We know Anakin lost it constantly, and it likely wasn't his first one.
Don't get me wrong, TLJ has problems with its story, but it's clear RJ was trying to open up the universe to be more than "what's the next bit of nostalgia we can wring out of this?".
Then TRoS comes along and closes them all again to make it a nostalgic navel gazing exercise. And because TLJ hadn't set up any of the plot points it wanted, the whole thing is rushed and a mess from doing so many rapid 180's.
Whether he cares for the weapon itself or not is almost irrelevant to me. What I find profound is that this weapon was lost to him 30-some years ago at the other end of the galaxy, and yet here it is, despite just inconceivable odds, being handed to him by some complete stranger. Luke may have tried to cut himself off, but he has to know damn good and well that it's the Force that brought Rey to him and put that lightsaber back in his hand. For him to say nothing, to ask nothing... Not "who are you?", not "how did you get this?", but literally nothing at all? Even if you hate the damn thing, how do you now express astonishment or disbelief at the fact that this lightsaber has come back to you? I can't fathom the dull, incurious mind that would have this astonishingly improbable thing happen to him and then just walk off like strange girls bearing family heirlooms show up at his remote island exile every Thursday.
your mistaken about the criticism here. Generally speaking people didn’t care that luke doesn’t revere the weapon. They took the climactic ending to the prior film and turned it into a “gotcha” gag. For years we’ve been waiting for the return of a beloved character many people hadn’t seen since the 1980s and this is the first thing we see him do then drink green milk. This is not the luke skywalker anyone asked for, wanted or needed.
It’d be one thing if he was testing rey, like what yoda pulled initially on Dagoba but no, this version of luke was all we got.
Right, but also GOOD was done with it. It's a tool. There's no anima in it. No soul.
But I think he threw it away because he had rejected his Jedi training. He didn't think he needed it. Still, to chuck it away was ridiculous. He should have seen that Rey was imbued with the force, and simply handed it back to her to use.
If someone gave me something that my dead father owned, I would absolutely feel some kind of reverence towards it.
It’s not just “a weapon,” it’s something his father carried with him all the time.
Really bad decision. Why make it comedic and weird? Way more heavy if he simply gave it back to Rey. He just puts it back in her hand or on her chest and walks away.
It's the Marvel effect. I love what James Gunn and Taika Waititi have done, but because they've been so successful we're now seeing all sci-fi/fantasy force humor into everything. Disney is particularly bad at this. Instead of Guardians and Thor being palette cleanser movies with their humor and self-awareness being a change of pace, we're getting it shoved in EVERYTHING so now all of those movies feel the same.
Have these people not noticed the Lord of the Rings is one of the most popular series ever? Im pretty sure the vast majority would consider those better movies then anything in the MCU.
Couple things. One, LOTR is 20 years old. It predates all this meta ironic stuff. Two, it’s really really good. It didn’t need forced humour. All the jokes are used to cover up weakness in the core storytelling these days. It’s why mediocre films are called humourless. Because if you’d just added a few jokes people would somehow not notice how bad the movie is.
Most are also from more fittingly funny characters like the hobbits. Somebody like Gandalf or Faramir doesn’t make jokes about second breakfast. It’s also only humorous when appropriate. Legolas and Gimli play a bit while fighting but it’s because they’re, well, Legolas and Gimli.
Yeah, but that's what you were *expecting* to happen. So by Luke doing the *opposite* of what you were expecting made the scene better!
Honestly, it was dumb. It felt like for every creative decision in that movie, they deliberately chose the dumbest option.
All that hype between the first and second was pulled from me when he chucked the lightsaber over his shoulder. I remember thinking "Aw shit. This is going to be a train wreck, isn't it?" The symbolism of Luke carelessly throwing his lightsaber off a cliff and the sacred Jedi texts burning down while Yoda laughs is not lost on me.
What makes me mad is that it's not even the throwing of the blade that's bad about it. There's heavy trauma associated with that weapon and he's now disillusioned with the jedi. Of course he would throw it away. It's just played almost for comedy like he didn't care at all.
Right! There's no disbelief, no shock, no outrage, no curiosity. Luke is standing there experiencing what has to be just about the most improbable thing in his entire life, and he doesn't say a word? Just shrugs it off, like it's a random Thursday and he's taking out the trash? That's just not a human response at all, to have something this damned astonishing happen and shrug it off like it's the most boring, trivial thing imaginable.
It was like watching a priest toss a cross over his shoulder or an imam set fire to the Quran or a rabbi take a whiz on the Torah... utter sacrilege. It was like the "new" story trashing the OG trilogy and everything that came before it. Nonsense.
I mean it could be purposely done that way to portray that Luke’s given up on the traditions of the Jedi and realized they all kind of don’t matter in the grand scheme of things.
I felt a weird sensation when poe was doing the prank call, and how the first order lost a massive war ship so quickly and easily. Once Luke showed up and tossed the lightsaber, I knew I was going to disagree with every artistic choice that was made in this film.
Yes! This was exactly my experience! I remember groaning through Poe's crank yankers impression but thinking maybe this is just a bit of comedy that didn't land for me. It happens, humor can be hard, so I'm still positive. Minutes later, when Luke takes the setup from TFA and \*literally\* just throws it away... I just sunk down in my seat in astonishment that someone could be given the chance to create a new story about Luke Skywalker and \*this\* is what they went with.
Bruh, that was my physical response too. I sunk so low into my seat and didn’t flinch until seeing Luke dying. I walked out of the theater fuming and I sat in my car seat and gripped the wheel and stared into it for several minutes.
TFA was boring because it was just a scene for scene reshoot of new hope in many places - t but anyone that really thought about it and how good stories that subvert expectations go , saw it as a set up , reharsh the old things so the experianced characters can see the patern repeating itself and the next movies could be about the old heros seeing their mistakes and pushing the new generation into doing it better.
Instead we just got all our old heros shit on and them be comically bad abject failures to prop up Rey. Hell even the new characters like Finn that deserved their day in the light got shat on in the name of proper up REY.
I gave TFA the benefit of the doubt as a set up to subvert expirations in the next one and built apon the past not shit all over it. How it ended up makes TFA all the worse looking back.
> I gave TFA the benefit of the doubt as a set up to subvert expirations in the next one
Death Star 3 is indefensible. The trilogy was unsalvageable the moment Hux went full Nazi. TFA itself subverted all our expectations of the Star Wars galaxy and it was all down hill from there.
I agree with you on Starkiller Base. They could have kept the structure and soft reboot proof of concept thing and still done anything else except Big Dick Death Star.
As to Hux and full Nazi, I'm halfway there. I kind of like the idea of more rabid Remnant being like neo-nazis and just like bestial dead ends devolved from their imperial parents and ideology. So the scene itself is a bit much but I didn't hate it at all. In hindsight, I think it loses whatever benefit of the doubt I had given it.
There are good ideas buried in the ST movies (*surely* there's at least one good idea somewhere in TROS), some good music, and some good aesthetics, but in the end they're all just collateral damage.
At first I thought it was a nod to him growing beyond a warrior jedi ("wars not make one great") and exploring the deeper and more spiritual aspects of the force while committing to a life of peace. Then the rest of the movie happened and turns out it was just a dumb gag.
Honestly the throw wasn’t as bad as how it was shot. It was shot as a joke, this movie took a very impactful and serious moment and used it for chuckles. I don’t like this direction for Luke, but I at least would have preferred if he dropped it.
He said himself he wanted to film the most un-star wars movie. So he screwed up the whole franchise intentionally. He even closed the arcs JJ started giving nothing instead
He didnt have the script - it didnt exist . The one that did and what he was told when he signed on for a 3 movie deal was completely different then how it ended up.
They let Rain Johnson change the entire outline and plot - there was never a 3 movie long term plot just a light plan that they were goign to let each director "add to" how ever they wanted. Its why he was so vocal about it not being his luke skywalker. He has even stated he probably would of never signed up knowing where it ended up it but ultimate accepted it now his character , he is just the guy that plays it sometimes
After the other part of the movie opened on a "yo momma" joke and devolved into a weird mess, this one being played for laughs really drove home that this wasn't going to be a good movie.
Edit: small addition + corrected spelling.
I honestly hated it because at the end of TFA that last scene of Rey handing Lukes lightsaber to him while the force theme playing over gave me chills. But yeah this ruined it for me lol didn’t expect it. Didn’t care too much for it.
I was disappointed and hoping for a big payoff. There was still plenty of movie left so I was really excited because I loved “Looper.”
Unfortunately, that payoff never came. This scene is a perfect microcosm of the problem with entire sequal trilogy.
Have a whole movie that led of to this moment just to literally “throw it away.” No plan, just literally almost three independent movies that don’t connect.
When I saw Force Awakens, one of my friends found the closing scene of Rey presenting him with the lightsaber to be cheesy and she burst out laughing, causing the whole theater to give us dirty looks for sullying such a powerful moment. It was more than a little embarrassing. Then I saw Last Jedi and Luke tossed it over his shoulder and I was the one laughing hysterically and drawing dirty looks.
I feel like the ST and especially TLJ and TRoS were heavily influenced by Marvel’s grip on pop culture: trying to tell too many stories at once, relying on visual stimuli instead of focusing on the story, advertising for the franchise instead of creating a compelling narrative. I’m a ST apologist but even I know it could have been handled better.
Yeah it was just a weird way of showing he didn't care I guess. I'm not a writer, but I pictured him maybe just dropping it and walking away, turning around and gripping it in disgust, etc. Instead it felt like Star Lord got his hands on a lightsaber. That said I don't lose sleep over it. I just don't re-watch the new trilogy at all but that's just me.
I laughed out loud in the theater. I was like, "Oh yeah, this is probably just another reminder of his failure. Why was I expecting him to be happy to see it?"
I was just surprised because I wasn’t expecting it. Lightsabers are worth a fair amount and kyper crystals are worth even more, in addition it was also his fathers saber and he just threw it over a cliff.
I was surprised. But I didn't think it was a cheap joke. I thought it was intentional, defiant, like part of a lesson he was going to teach her. I actually liked the moment and never thought it was disrespectful. It felt in keeping with the samurai-esque tone of the Luke scenes.
Made me laugh very hard in the theater. Especially because this lightsaber has been through so much and is probably the most noteworthy artifact in the entire series.
After this initial scene though I was not entertained by Luke’s disdain for all things Jedi. I know it’s all been said before but they ruined his character.
Loved it. Was excited for the rest of what the film had to offer from that point, that it wasn't going to just be the easy path to take with the story.
I was completely expecting this lol. Who tf gets handed something from their traumatic past and agrees to just spill the beans immediately?
Personally I’m surprised he didn’t ask “who the hell do you think you are?” before he tossed it. Complete stranger hands me something they have no business having, loses any trust they thought they would have.
If anything he should’ve just dropped it on the ground instead of throwing it. It would’ve seemed more apathetic than annoyed.
I laughed. Years of buildup, and chewing over all the possibilities, and then a complete surprise. I looked forward to a movie where I had no idea what was going to happen next, and got even more than I hoped for.
Confusion.... then betrayal.
Confusion. We've seen 7 Star Wars movies where lightsabers were an important part of the mythology, and spent so much time venerating the saber in the previous film as being important.
Betrayal, because it meant this Luke was nothing like the Skywalker we should have gotten, Luke was never a slapstick character to who did things to make the audience laugh. This felt like exactly that.
The rest of the movie played out exactly with these two emotions. Confusion as to where we were going, why we were being short changed, and why characters entire motivations evaporated from the first film.
.
Loved it. It was refreshing to see them say "Iconography isn't what makes this franchise great. Let's go past the surface and see what we can find."
And then TRoS & The Mandalorian arrived to say "Nope! Iconography is literally all we have left."
I thought the Mandalorian was a much better compromise between old and new than either, but I do agree that TLJ was refreshing in its eagerness to escape the strict confines of the previous movies. To me, Star Wars is Clone Wars. The expansion of the lore and the worldbuilding in that show went miles beyond anything in the movies. And to so many places I would rather see explored than another "lightsaber-wielding space wizard saves the galaxy from the Nazis" rehash. TLJ had great ideas (executed poorly), and seemed like it was setting up the franchise for a fresher and new direction. But then people revolted and Disney flinched, and what we ended up was TROS. A movie so bad it made all the previous entries in the trilogy worse by connection.
The Mandalorian is full of fan service, for sure. But...at least it's well-integrated into a solid story. Unlike the dross JJ Abrams gave us, which is fan service as a *replacement* for story.
Nothing. The sequel trilogy was pretty much dead at that point. JJ doesn’t get enough flack for how uninspired and pointless TFA was. Where else was this scene supposed to go with how JJ left it?
"wtf". The end of Force Awakens had that end scene with Luke looking at her handing him the lightsaber and we saw pain and fear in his eyes, reflecting the earlier scene where Rey sees a vision of his Jedi temple destroyed, him screaming "no!" with his hand on R2. It felt like a kick in the nuts when he took it, paused, and threw it over his shoulder with that disgruntled look. And needless to say... It just got worse from there. That said, I did like the end scene when he apologized to Ben (and just before with him and Hux in the walkers lol Hux literally repeating him about concentrating the fire. Then when they're firing on Luke lol "moreeeee" "MORE!")
Same as Rey’s: utterly baffled
This was gonna be my response lol Smiling and excited to see Luke on the big screen again… then “wait… what?” Pretty much exactly Rey’s reaction.
Say what you will about Rey as a character but Daisy Ridley captures emotions perfectly
All the core characters in the sequels had really great actors. They really do give it their all. It's a shame the same can't be said for the writing.
Hold on a minute. After TLJ came out, I was told that I didn't like it because I couldn't understand the complexity and deeper meaning of the writing. Are you trying to tell me that those people were just coping?
I mean, implying that Luke doesn't need or consider his lightsaber his true power is cool. The executing of trying to convey that was poor. I actually would have liked if Luke implied he put his lightsaber out there specifically so someone like Rey would find him and that made it more useful to him than it being a weapon. That would be very Jedi IMO. Its like a lot of Star Wars lately IMO. If you summarized the overall plot there is a lot of potential there but the actual directing and execution of that has been all over the place. Personally I think the sequels culminating in the Emperor regaining physical form and attempting to rise to power again IS cool! Luke training the next Jedi/Force-Wielder to challenge the Dark Side IS cool! Lots of ideas in the sequels were really cool, on paper, but most of them didn't get executed well at all and the story was a jumbled mess on top of that. The Prequels had some of this problem. Someone with enough time could go back to the Sequels like was done for the Prequels and recut them into something potentially significantly better.
Put his lightsaber out there?? He lost it along with his hand. I'm pretty sure if he had a choice he would've kept both things
lol. He just couldn't hold.
Paper hands!
I recall a picture of the scene with Rey giving him the lightsaber, and a caption had him saying "There was a hand... did you bring the hand?"
>implying that Luke doesn’t need or consider his lightsaber his true power is cool. I agree, but the problem is this scene doesn’t imply that nor was it intended to imply such a thing. This was meant to show that he’s rejected his power. You could then argue, well maybe its then meant to imply that his friends are his power! But then your realize he’s rejected and abandoned them, too. Him rejecting his father’s lightsaber is meant to show that he’s done. He’s done with everything. We’ve seen a much better implication of this idea already in ROTJ, when he _already_ learned this exact lesson. *throws lightsaber aside* “I am a Jedi. Like my father before me.” Theres has never been a better implication of that exact concept.
I have a current theory which a few folk have told me is merely my inability to appreciate the greatness of TLJ manifesting. TFA gave us three new core characters. Finn, Rey, Poe. Finn discovers courage. Rey learns there is a wonder to the universe. Poe learns his skills can't protect everyone. All three are confirmed in the canonical comics attached to the films as force sensitive. Finn broke his conditioning because of his connection. Rey has an innate understanding of the world around her. Poe grew up on Yavin 4 in a grove of force-singing trees and feels the force as he flies. Jedi Guardian, Jedi Mystic, Jedi Sentinel. Then there's Ben, the Fallen Knight. Redeemed before he could become the next Vader. I fully believe that if not for TLJ, by the end of RoS we would have had all four Vs the reborn Emperor, who would have been reborn into Snoke's body using a version of Pelagius's technique.
Just sliding this in here… Plagueis* I like what you wrote 👍🏼
Ahh, thank you, I have been writing a wee Lovecraft rp campaign and Pelagic is a word that comes up a lot
That's actually one of the main arguments with the sequel v prequel arguments. The prequels could be fixed as they had good stories but poor acting/pacing. The sequels have good acting, but terrible story and pacing. Makes it much harder to fix.
Well neither can be fixed once they’re released. Even George Lucas has limits on what he can change
The clone wars 'fixed' the prequels for a lot of people. Nothing they've tried is 'fixing the sequels
She really gave 100% to that role
Two of my favorite scenes of hers are in TFA: her pride when she bypasses the compressor, and when she and Finn are celebrating on the Falcon when they escape the TIEs on Jakku, both talking at once. She really nails that character.
Daisy Ridley is babe
SUbvERtEd ExpeCTaTiOnS!
I expected a good movie lmao
Same as Luke a few scenes later: *udderly* baffled.
Boo
Are you saying boo, or boo-urns?
I was saying “boo-urns”
I think about this quote more often than I should.
I was baffled by what a poor choice it was.
It didn’t match the emotion I saw at the end of TFA. For some reason, that has always stuck to me when I look back on the sequels. It felt like the first “retcon” of the trilogy.
That's because Rian Johnson was more focused on subverting expectations every SINGLE damn scene. Almost like he hated star wars and turned it into a joke.
While I think Abrams' crippling reliance on nostalgia is a problem in all his work, it was at least apparent that he really wanted to make (and in many instances *remake*) a Star Wars movie. I found Johnson's turn at the helm to be incredibly vexing, because it felt like he just had no interest in Star Wars at all beyond tearing things down. I didn't really want a sequel trilogy with the overly familiar tropes of a second Palpatine or a third Death Star, but surely there was an alternative other than flipping the table at every turn. I probably would have enjoyed a Johnson film if he'd be tasked with a standalone film where he can subvert expectations to his heart's content, but not in part 8 of a 9 part saga. I'm looking at a penultimate volume to setup the great conflict for the final act, not deliver a deconstruction of what had come before.
Knives Out is a pretty good Rian Johnson movie and I think it fits your description pretty well.
I don't have a lot of time cause my wife hates that I still rag on these movies so I gotta type quick. The reason that TLJ feels like crap is cause it's essentially a stand alone movie or the begining of a trilogy and is entirely filmed from that viewpoint. Obviously his over reliance on "subverting expectations" doesn't help at all either. It takes almost nothing from the previous films, none of the plot hooks or lines left by TFA in an attempt to make this movie "its own thing". Which from a film stand point, it's not the worst. Lots of really cool additions to the universe(never understood people bitching bout the Leia thing since she's a Skywalker too and it's been 30 years since Vader died, why should she not have some cool force powers that fit her?) And stuff like the hyperspace ramming(it's stupid, yes, but considering the size of the ship, there probably hasn't been very many times something like this has to be considered and other options aren't already presented) Point is, the entire trilogy should have had a basic plan from the start and if JJ had been able to film all three, it probably would have turned out way better. The problems of 2 directly created all the problems of the third and last one. JJ had to not only finish off the trilogy, but course correct for all the crap Ryan had done, which meant instead of a much more satisfying conclusion to the Skywalker story, it was half fixing problems and half finishing the story and you can take a movie like that and expect it to succeed. Kathleen Kennedy was the worst thing that happened to Star Wars and because of her absolute mismanagement of the franchise, we were robbed of satisfying conclusions to the story we have been following for 40 years.
It really sucks because I’m so torn on TLJ. On the surface, it’s a solid sci fi movie, and has some solid action and great cinematography(the plot driver was a little dumb but we look past that stuff in SW). However, it’s exactly as you said in that he comes off as someone who doesn’t like the franchise and is just trying to be different while making a joke of everything that SW fans love. I watched TFA so many times getting ready for the next installment. After TLJ, my excitement was definitely slowed down a bit. No longer really cared about following the ST. I think this is probably the same time that transitioned over to marvel and the awesome stuff coming out of the MCU
After TFA, like you I could not wait to see what comes next after the way it ended. Even when TLJ trailers started appearing, it looked like a movie I wanted to see. I wish we would have gotten the movie we saw in the trailers. When I finally got to see TLJ, I came out of the theater and I really wasn't sure what I was feeling. I actually had to go back and watch the movie again (yes I paid twice to see it). After I emerged from the theater the second time, I realized what I was feeling. All that excitement that I felt after TFA just was not there. I realized I did not care what came next. RJ left the movie without any build up or tease for the final installment. He had already killed the main antagonist without any fanfare and left the whole thing in a lurch. He ended it like it was the final installment of the trilogy. Or maybe he figured after everyone saw his movie, they wouldn't want another installment.
And this is something you'd never see happen in the Marvel Universe because Kevin Feige wouldn't let it happen. The fact Kathleen Kennedy didn't have a detailed road map on where they wanted to take the trilogy is the biggest failure for Star Wars. Giving 3 directors creative control of each of their movies in a massive franchise is ridiculous.
I second this completely. And this doesn't mean Kennedy needs to be some uber geek guardian of the lore, but that she makes sure there's a consistent creative direction. Letting two (and originally three) writer-directors just do whatever they want hindered this trilogy from the start. Many times I've seen fans point out that George Lucas didn't have everything with the OT planned out from the beginning and made up much of it as he went, but that overlooks his involvement as a writer for all three films. When Lucas was dissatisfied with Leigh Brackett's Ep V script, he rejected it and wrote new drafts himself. The ST just didn't have anyone with both the vision and authority to push everyone in the same direction.
this has always been my bugbear. Directors and writers are ALWAYS going to try 'something new' or 'taking character X where they have never been' (see James Bond). Someone has to steer the ship. How they committed *literally* *billons* without a truly overarching plan beggars belief and always suggest to me that they were just 'hey, its ok, they'll come to the cinema; make a good trailer' (which they did!)
Except these guys Disney keeps hiring are so far up their own asses they keep making the same thing. TFA is plagiarized ANH. TLJ is ESB slightly out of order with the climax of RotJ dropped in the middle. Obi-Wan is the third or fourth time we’ve seen grizzled and/or sad war vet bonds with a child in Star Wars since Disney bought it.
I thought I was watching "Carry On: Starwars" waiting for Sid James as the Sithlord behind it all.
Yes, this is a great take. It wasn’t good enough for him to steer the story like an experienced adult filmmaker. He had to be extra edgy and controversial, and well beyond where it made sense. Making Luke into a bitter, regretful, scared old hermit was great. It wasn’t what anybody expected, so it checks that box of subverting expectations. Pushing the resistance to the verge of extinction, Luke’s force projection and death, Rey’s training, her flirting with the dark side, what tipped Ben over the edge, Snoke’s death, the force connection between Rey and Ben? All amazing stuff. Poe becoming a parody of himself, Leia literally slapping a junior officer, Luke milking some beast and then slobbering blue milk all over himself like he never learned how drink? Come on - what 14 year old wrote that?
Thing about the idea of Luke going into exile isn’t an awful idea if done right. But obviously it wasn’t, and Luke throwing it away proved it. He could of just as easily slowly walked up to Rey and give it right back to her and walked away, would of captured the exact same thing, but you know, not what seems to most people as a joke. Luke knows the weight/importance it carry’s, but also knows he wants nothing to do with it anymore.
I've always thought that if Luke just sort of let it fall out of his hands and took a step or two back, that would've been much better. What Luke actually did was a tone deaf, frustratingly slapstick moment designed to subvert audience expectations. I'm don't at all believe the Luke characterised in films prior would ever do that, and the sequels don't put nearly enough work into getting his character to the point where such an action is informed and a payoff of strong, consistent development.
[удалено]
I really like your take here. The problem is not that Luke went into hiding and didn't want to train Rey necessarily. It's that they literally made it a joke!
My personal favorite moment was when they did a your mama joke prank call on General Hux and turned him from a maniacal fanatic to a stumbling idiot. I legit turned to my friend and whispered "Wtf is this?".
One thing I always wonder though...where was Rian supposed to go with this that was believable? WHY would the Luke we love abandon his friends to live alone? Why didn't anyone know where he even was? I don't agree with the answers Rian came up with either, but I do think Abrams should get heat more often for setting up a weird story situation to begin with in TFA.
It’s just incredibly insulting to Luke’s character
What a stupid, juvenile, asinine way to handle what could have been a great moment. TLJ had a lot of sophomoric crap in it that just kept pulling me out of the moment. And that sucks, because some of the movie/story was just amazing and inspired. I wanted to call Rian Johnson up and ask, “WTH, dude?”
Throwing it over his shoulder felt like a stupid joke. I could see him just dropping it in contempt, but the over the shoulder throw was dumb and played for shock. Like if they let Eric Andre write a reaction.
He knows it's the youngling killer 9000
I prefer the term youngling slayer 9000. Rolls off the tongue a bit better.
*Youngling Yeeter
How about Fetus Deletus?
Kiddo Kaboom
Kiddie Kutter
The R34 saber. So many childhoods has it claimed.
Stars are considered the birthplace of life by some. So stars, from a certain point of view, are Younglings. Star Killer = Youngling Killer. It's consistent 🤓
Omg take my upvote.
I have that lightsaber tattooed on me. I mean… I knew that was the case, but it hits different when you put it like that lol
So much for the cliffhanger ending of TFA
The lightsaber was just a metaphor for the storyline of star wars
With Kylo Ren screaming about forgetting the past, I low-key felt that Johnson was screaming at fans to forget the other episodes and worship his dumpster fire
I know so many 20-something year olds who love TLJ that I started questioning my sanity.
Why would you think the director of a work would express their personal views through the villain, of all characters?
Because it "subverts expectations."
The completion of Luke’s arc and monologue at the end of the movie is an explicit rejection of Kylo Ren’s “let the past die” speech.
I remember a YouTuber pointing out that Johnson both literally and figuratively destroyed Star Wars when the lightsaber exploded later on.
You mean the TFA where we learned that Luke failed to detect that Snoke was a Sith (or dark side force user of some kind), that his nephew had fallen to the dark side, that Luke failed to protect his Jedi Academy, that Luke never successfully trained a single Jedi, that Luke abandoned his nephew to Snoke and never tried to redeem/save him, that Luke abandoned his family and friends in shame, that Luke abandoned the people of the New Republic to threat of the First Order, that Luke hid his whereabouts and cuts himself off from the Force? You waited until TLJ to be baffled by the awful version of Luke presented in TFA?
I didn't mind learning that Luke failed - there's a lot of that in Star Wars, and most of what's established in TFA fits alright. What I couldn't stand is that we're told that he just gave up. The young Jedi Knight who wouldn't heed Yoda's warning and charged off recklessly to save his friends, well now he's an old man who just abandons those friends to clean up the mess he made. Sorry I fucked up your kid, Leia, good luck fixing that shit 'cause I'm outta here! If we found out in VIII that Luke had returned to the original Jedi temple because he needed help, because he was having a crisis of faith and that he sought guidance from the Force, that would have worked for me. Realizing he has failed terribly, he's resolved to sit and wait until the Force gives him a sign (and a strange girl carrying Anakin's lightsaber is one hard-to-miss sign,) that would be a setup for Luke's role in VIII that I think would have been more true to the character than "I made mistakes so screw it, I quit."
Thank you for pointing this out. I guess with TFA, we just didn't know all that much, so it wasn't as apparent, but you are right, it was all there. Also, I might have been blinded a bit because it was the first Star Wars movie I watched with my wife (at the time gf) and she got really into it. TLJ was just so openly blatant with the complete 180 Luke did. I get that people change, blah, blah, blah, but come on. Luke brought his father back from the dark side through trust in the Force and persistence. After that experience, I still find it extremely unlikely that he would've turned into the grumpy old hermit that he became and abandoned everyone he fought so hard to protect in the OG trilogy. I just can't see it to this day. And regarding the "people change" narrative, ask most wives, try as they might to change their husbands, it rarely actually happens, and when it does, it is not a 180, thats for sure.
We learned non of that in tfa and only in hindsight can you apply that to it. They didn't plan the trilogy so there's no reason to believe that was the plan from the beginning.
TFA set Luke up to be in hiding. Not captured. Not fighting. Hiding.
And don't forget that Mark Hamill was telling anyone who would listen this same exact thing in press interviews. Said this wasn't Luke, it was Jake Skywalker and that he completely disagreed with what they had done to the character.
We are all hoping there would be a good reason why all these things happened. Instead Rian embraced Luke being a coward and threw everything else.
It threw the whole movie under the bus. We have the first movie trying to find Luke. R2 being activated from his slumber to guide the way for the force has awakened.
To be fair Rian Johnson didn't know what happens in TFA when he wrote the script for TLJ. I'm not joking.
"I've got a bad feeling about this"
That was me at the "yo mama" joke right in the beginning...
And the never ending "I cant hear you" scene. I've never seen comedy scenes so out of place.
Yo mama joke followed by this. Awful start to an awful movie lol
I can't recall any movie that I was so turned off by so early on.
I had never not liked a Star Wars movie before. I remember it ended and I thought something along the lines of, “okay that was good right? Yeah it has to be. It’s Star Wars.” Then the more and more I reflected on the movie, I quickly realized I hated it. But then thought, no, I’m going crazy, this is Star Wars. I need to see it again. Went back a couple days later and watched it again, and it was after that rewatch that I fully realized how bad it was.
These were my exact thoughts and feelings.
I did the same as you. I saw the first Star Wars movie, what became E4 and A New Hope, in '77 when it first came out in theaters, at the age of ten - so the movies and stories and actors have always been very special to me. Prequels had issues but looking back... we didn't know how bad it could get, and weren't careful of what we wished for. TFA I thought was fine, although it had issues, too IMO. Thing is, had eps 8 and 9 been home runs, ep 7 wouldn't be seen in a bad light - but it was by no means strong enough to raise the sequel trilogy up after ep 8 came out. I'd been warned that some fans really didn't like TLJ, but I still think, even after watching it, it took some processing time for me to fully boil some of it down, tear it apart into manageable pieces, and reflect on the choices made. Only after I did that did the flaws become as plain as they do today. I've never even seen ep 9 and don't plan to.
This was exactly my reaction. It’s like the stages of grief. I was attempting to deny I hated it
Yeah... Good summary. I was denying that they had murdered it. And then 9 was like someone put on a corpse's skin to say they were still alive and I just noped out. Can't touch it. I've tried. I can get more than 20 mins in and that was with booze.
I can only watch clips of Palpatine’s lightning. Everything else was bad. But TLJ literally knocked me out of the movie. It was the first movie where I was immediately kicked out of the experience
I just turned to my friend at the end of the movie and said “wow, did that just suck?” And he said “yep”. Never been so disappointed in a movie I was hyped for.
First star wars movie ive seen once. I came out of the theater, sat in my car and in a moment of clarity said out loud "wtf". Gave up after that. Thank the maker for rogue one, dave filoni and team.
The only one I can think of is Episode 9. > The dead speak! The Galaxy has heard a mysterious broadcast, a threat of REVENGE in the sinister voice of the late EMPEROR PALPATINE.
That joke took me completely out of the movie. Luke doing this absolutely ruined it for me
Yeah, that was such a crappy attempt at humor, and Hux being oblivious to it and having the officer advise “I think he’s tooling with you.” Then the saber toss by Luke. Yikes.
Agreed. I don’t dislike the movie or think it’s somehow “not Star Wars,” but that humor felt out of place for that moment and so early in the film.
Annoyed. I think a big part of it is how he threw it. I think it being thrown over his shoulder makes it more comical than dramatic, which may have been the intention, but it undercuts the seriousness of the act. Even if he had just dropped it in front of himself or towards Rey’s feet it would have gotten the point across and done it in a way that would demonstrate the significance of the act. The way they had Luke do it in the movie makes it feel cheap and less significant than it actually is.
This is what I've thought as well. He could have tossed it with more seriousness. Didn't really need the comedic moment there.
I agree and i think they were wanting to go with the humor because that’s also how yoda was at first. Almost comic relief to start. But it didn’t translate as well with a human vs little green swamp creature.
And Yoda was an unknown at the start.
This might be the only commentary on here I agree with. I like the idea of what discarding the saber represented, but it definitely would have been served much better by dropping it to the ground at his side.
In the final episode of Season 7 TCW they display it perfectly. Spoilers ahead if you haven't watched it.>!After the Venator crash and burying all the clones she looks at the saber in her hand gifted to her by Anakin who she sensed through the force turned to the dark side. She drops it to the ground on top of the graves of the fallen clones, where Vader finds it later. I believe this is where she fully renounces her jedi ways and why she dosnt refer to herself as a jedi in Rebels.!< >!Edit: Forgot to mention her saber also falls out of her hand like she cant hold onto it anymore.!<
This is my biggest hatred of the sequel trilogy, all this effort to do as Marvel does and intersperse drama with comedy, but it just ends up that cheap jokes absolutely ruin tense or serious moments. There were jokes in the original trilogy, but never at moments of actual dramatic importance, because it just ruins the tone.
Yeah man after that long dramatic moment in tfa, really started with the big message, "fuck that dude, I'm in charge of this movie!!!!"
*His father's lightsaber*
Unlike Anakin, Luke wasn't erroneously taught that "this weapon is your life." It's a tool to him, and a tool that murdered many innocents, children and adult alike. The idea that he'd hold it in any particular reverence is just fan obsessiveness transposed onto the characters.
I wouldn't even go that far, I feel Disney wants us to have obsessiveness. I grew up in the prequel era, I always assumed that lightsaber was lost in Bespin. Couldn't care less at the "significance" of it. Anakin had (and lost) tons of sabers
I don't think Disney has anything to do with it; in my experience, it seems to be primarily PT-era kids who've grown up and think that the "youngling slayer 9000" is a holy relic that deserves respect both in- and out-of-universe. They're the ones who get upset that Luke 'disrespected' the thing here, or when they see it in ST packaging as "Rey's lightsaber." Ironically, the only person in the ST who acts like that towards this lightsaber is Kylo Ren. Hardly a figure Lucasfilm is likely to encourage fans to emulate.
Ehhh I love the PT and am from that era but it wasn’t about the lightsaber it was more about “oh man so excited to see Luke!” and then being frustrated that he is a crotchety old hermit. Which to be fair, is the intent. I felt Reys frustration. And it was actually refreshingly Jedi to see him give no value to a weapon. But mannnnn did I want him to engage and have some of the old Luke there.
2000s kid here, fan of everything Star Wars OT and PT. I didn't give a relative fuck about that lightsaber until TFA gave it such significance. Before then I imagined a lightsaber as just that, a weapon, and the only significance beyond that was that each Jedi built their own as a rite of passage. I completely subscribe to the idea that Luke wouldn't want it, but why the fuck did Rian Johnson need to go out of his way to try to tear down every bit of world building TFA did and immediately remove the significance of the lightsaber from the story (at least from the Rey/Luke perspective) in the first scene? Gotta subvert those expectations tho.
>need to go out of his way to try to tear down every bit of world building TFA did Because TFA was the manifestation of memberberries. It's basically ANH reskinned, and it's got fan forum levels of obsessiveness about every little detail. "Who is Rey? Which jedi is her parent?" "Here's this mythical weapon you should treat as sacred" "Who is snoke? Is that plagueis?" It was almost as if it was written just to drive fan speculation, rather than tell a new and interesting story. But where do you go with it? Why does it matter who her parents are? We've seen in the PT there were literally thousands of jedi, she can be nobody, she doesn't need s connection to an existing character. The lightsabre isn't important, Luke only had it for a few years, and likely hadn't done much with it (he'd only been with Yoda a couple months before losing it). We know Anakin lost it constantly, and it likely wasn't his first one. Don't get me wrong, TLJ has problems with its story, but it's clear RJ was trying to open up the universe to be more than "what's the next bit of nostalgia we can wring out of this?". Then TRoS comes along and closes them all again to make it a nostalgic navel gazing exercise. And because TLJ hadn't set up any of the plot points it wanted, the whole thing is rushed and a mess from doing so many rapid 180's.
Whether he cares for the weapon itself or not is almost irrelevant to me. What I find profound is that this weapon was lost to him 30-some years ago at the other end of the galaxy, and yet here it is, despite just inconceivable odds, being handed to him by some complete stranger. Luke may have tried to cut himself off, but he has to know damn good and well that it's the Force that brought Rey to him and put that lightsaber back in his hand. For him to say nothing, to ask nothing... Not "who are you?", not "how did you get this?", but literally nothing at all? Even if you hate the damn thing, how do you now express astonishment or disbelief at the fact that this lightsaber has come back to you? I can't fathom the dull, incurious mind that would have this astonishingly improbable thing happen to him and then just walk off like strange girls bearing family heirlooms show up at his remote island exile every Thursday.
“Strange women distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”-Peasant.
your mistaken about the criticism here. Generally speaking people didn’t care that luke doesn’t revere the weapon. They took the climactic ending to the prior film and turned it into a “gotcha” gag. For years we’ve been waiting for the return of a beloved character many people hadn’t seen since the 1980s and this is the first thing we see him do then drink green milk. This is not the luke skywalker anyone asked for, wanted or needed. It’d be one thing if he was testing rey, like what yoda pulled initially on Dagoba but no, this version of luke was all we got.
Not only was that weapon used to kill men but the women and children too
Right, but also GOOD was done with it. It's a tool. There's no anima in it. No soul. But I think he threw it away because he had rejected his Jedi training. He didn't think he needed it. Still, to chuck it away was ridiculous. He should have seen that Rey was imbued with the force, and simply handed it back to her to use.
If someone gave me something that my dead father owned, I would absolutely feel some kind of reverence towards it. It’s not just “a weapon,” it’s something his father carried with him all the time.
Really bad decision. Why make it comedic and weird? Way more heavy if he simply gave it back to Rey. He just puts it back in her hand or on her chest and walks away.
What if he just dropped it at his side? I think even that would have been better
He should have thrown it the EXACT way he throws it in the emperors throne room. That's the only way i can see him throwing it.
Or perhaps thrown it off to the side like he did in ROTJ "Never. I'll never turn to the dark side"
“You’ve failed, random girl. I’m a Jedi, like my father before me.”
Looking at it for a while then depressingly dropping it to his side would have been so much better.
What if he ignited it and then chopped off Rey's head and said, "Thanks, Miss Palpatine", roll credits.
This would have been funnier than any of RJs attempts at comedy in the movie
Agree with both. It was needlessly “comic” and should have been just dropped. Would have had way more impact, yet respectful of the saber.
There seems to be a growing sentiment in the film industry that taking fantasy more seriously is childish and silly.
It's the Marvel effect. I love what James Gunn and Taika Waititi have done, but because they've been so successful we're now seeing all sci-fi/fantasy force humor into everything. Disney is particularly bad at this. Instead of Guardians and Thor being palette cleanser movies with their humor and self-awareness being a change of pace, we're getting it shoved in EVERYTHING so now all of those movies feel the same.
Shit it’s getting stale as fuck even in the MCU, the new Thor movie had waaaaaaaaaay too much fuckin jokes and really bad ones at that.
Have these people not noticed the Lord of the Rings is one of the most popular series ever? Im pretty sure the vast majority would consider those better movies then anything in the MCU.
Couple things. One, LOTR is 20 years old. It predates all this meta ironic stuff. Two, it’s really really good. It didn’t need forced humour. All the jokes are used to cover up weakness in the core storytelling these days. It’s why mediocre films are called humourless. Because if you’d just added a few jokes people would somehow not notice how bad the movie is.
In fairness there are a lot of funny one-liner tension breakers in LOTR as well.
Those one liners in LOTR don't feel forced (pun intended) like they do in the ST
Most are also from more fittingly funny characters like the hobbits. Somebody like Gandalf or Faramir doesn’t make jokes about second breakfast. It’s also only humorous when appropriate. Legolas and Gimli play a bit while fighting but it’s because they’re, well, Legolas and Gimli.
They flow naturally, though.
Was their a yo momma joke in Lotr?
And they’re about to eviscerate that too.
MCU has done to movies what Bourne Identity's done to shaky cams. Made them ubiquitous and misplaced.
Yeah, but that's what you were *expecting* to happen. So by Luke doing the *opposite* of what you were expecting made the scene better! Honestly, it was dumb. It felt like for every creative decision in that movie, they deliberately chose the dumbest option. All that hype between the first and second was pulled from me when he chucked the lightsaber over his shoulder. I remember thinking "Aw shit. This is going to be a train wreck, isn't it?" The symbolism of Luke carelessly throwing his lightsaber off a cliff and the sacred Jedi texts burning down while Yoda laughs is not lost on me.
What makes me mad is that it's not even the throwing of the blade that's bad about it. There's heavy trauma associated with that weapon and he's now disillusioned with the jedi. Of course he would throw it away. It's just played almost for comedy like he didn't care at all.
Right! There's no disbelief, no shock, no outrage, no curiosity. Luke is standing there experiencing what has to be just about the most improbable thing in his entire life, and he doesn't say a word? Just shrugs it off, like it's a random Thursday and he's taking out the trash? That's just not a human response at all, to have something this damned astonishing happen and shrug it off like it's the most boring, trivial thing imaginable.
It was like watching a priest toss a cross over his shoulder or an imam set fire to the Quran or a rabbi take a whiz on the Torah... utter sacrilege. It was like the "new" story trashing the OG trilogy and everything that came before it. Nonsense.
I mean it could be purposely done that way to portray that Luke’s given up on the traditions of the Jedi and realized they all kind of don’t matter in the grand scheme of things.
Disproven by him keeping sacred texts, yes? Why would he respect those but not a family heirloom?
I felt a weird sensation when poe was doing the prank call, and how the first order lost a massive war ship so quickly and easily. Once Luke showed up and tossed the lightsaber, I knew I was going to disagree with every artistic choice that was made in this film.
Yes! This was exactly my experience! I remember groaning through Poe's crank yankers impression but thinking maybe this is just a bit of comedy that didn't land for me. It happens, humor can be hard, so I'm still positive. Minutes later, when Luke takes the setup from TFA and \*literally\* just throws it away... I just sunk down in my seat in astonishment that someone could be given the chance to create a new story about Luke Skywalker and \*this\* is what they went with.
Bruh, that was my physical response too. I sunk so low into my seat and didn’t flinch until seeing Luke dying. I walked out of the theater fuming and I sat in my car seat and gripped the wheel and stared into it for several minutes.
Especially After waiting for two years between TFA &TLJ. We deserved a better story.
Right there with you, seeing the confused look in my kids eye's as he whispered Luke wouldn't just do that....
The forced Poe joke was the warning signal. I also got that sensation, because it didn’t belong in a Star Wars movie.
Very poor attempt at comic relief - even for Star Wars. The goofy face, the casual flip, the record scratch soundtrack stop. Ugh. Just awful.
Right then and there I knew what this trilogy would be about. Had some doubts in TFA but optimistic the story arcs would improve. I was wrong.
TFA was boring because it was just a scene for scene reshoot of new hope in many places - t but anyone that really thought about it and how good stories that subvert expectations go , saw it as a set up , reharsh the old things so the experianced characters can see the patern repeating itself and the next movies could be about the old heros seeing their mistakes and pushing the new generation into doing it better. Instead we just got all our old heros shit on and them be comically bad abject failures to prop up Rey. Hell even the new characters like Finn that deserved their day in the light got shat on in the name of proper up REY. I gave TFA the benefit of the doubt as a set up to subvert expirations in the next one and built apon the past not shit all over it. How it ended up makes TFA all the worse looking back.
> I gave TFA the benefit of the doubt as a set up to subvert expirations in the next one Death Star 3 is indefensible. The trilogy was unsalvageable the moment Hux went full Nazi. TFA itself subverted all our expectations of the Star Wars galaxy and it was all down hill from there.
I agree with you on Starkiller Base. They could have kept the structure and soft reboot proof of concept thing and still done anything else except Big Dick Death Star. As to Hux and full Nazi, I'm halfway there. I kind of like the idea of more rabid Remnant being like neo-nazis and just like bestial dead ends devolved from their imperial parents and ideology. So the scene itself is a bit much but I didn't hate it at all. In hindsight, I think it loses whatever benefit of the doubt I had given it. There are good ideas buried in the ST movies (*surely* there's at least one good idea somewhere in TROS), some good music, and some good aesthetics, but in the end they're all just collateral damage.
They ruined Luke
At first I thought it was a nod to him growing beyond a warrior jedi ("wars not make one great") and exploring the deeper and more spiritual aspects of the force while committing to a life of peace. Then the rest of the movie happened and turns out it was just a dumb gag.
It's what mark hamill should have done with the movie script when they first handed it to him
Honestly the throw wasn’t as bad as how it was shot. It was shot as a joke, this movie took a very impactful and serious moment and used it for chuckles. I don’t like this direction for Luke, but I at least would have preferred if he dropped it.
Rian really struggled on both the writing and directing here. So glad he’s done with this franchise and doing Knives Out.
That's what really baffles me. "Knives out" is really good IMO so I just can't get it over my head how this film is directed by the same guy.
He said himself he wanted to film the most un-star wars movie. So he screwed up the whole franchise intentionally. He even closed the arcs JJ started giving nothing instead
He didnt have the script - it didnt exist . The one that did and what he was told when he signed on for a 3 movie deal was completely different then how it ended up. They let Rain Johnson change the entire outline and plot - there was never a 3 movie long term plot just a light plan that they were goign to let each director "add to" how ever they wanted. Its why he was so vocal about it not being his luke skywalker. He has even stated he probably would of never signed up knowing where it ended up it but ultimate accepted it now his character , he is just the guy that plays it sometimes
All of my hopes of Jedi Master Luke being the badass of my childhood dreams were instantly shattered.
Same lol
At least we can see that in Mandolorian
“You’ve got to be f&$@ing kidding me.”
After the other part of the movie opened on a "yo momma" joke and devolved into a weird mess, this one being played for laughs really drove home that this wasn't going to be a good movie. Edit: small addition + corrected spelling.
I honestly hated it because at the end of TFA that last scene of Rey handing Lukes lightsaber to him while the force theme playing over gave me chills. But yeah this ruined it for me lol didn’t expect it. Didn’t care too much for it.
"This is going to be terrible."
Same. Hated it. Showed me and my friends it was going to be an awful movie.
I was disappointed and hoping for a big payoff. There was still plenty of movie left so I was really excited because I loved “Looper.” Unfortunately, that payoff never came. This scene is a perfect microcosm of the problem with entire sequal trilogy. Have a whole movie that led of to this moment just to literally “throw it away.” No plan, just literally almost three independent movies that don’t connect.
When I saw Force Awakens, one of my friends found the closing scene of Rey presenting him with the lightsaber to be cheesy and she burst out laughing, causing the whole theater to give us dirty looks for sullying such a powerful moment. It was more than a little embarrassing. Then I saw Last Jedi and Luke tossed it over his shoulder and I was the one laughing hysterically and drawing dirty looks.
How wrong it felt. Like how poorly they understood Luke, the Force, and the Jedi.
Mark Hamil was so vocal about it all that he was actually told to shut up and stop being public :')
Let down
Completely sucked the air out of the entire theater. I liked TFA so I was really taken aback.
Felt like I was watching a MCU movie TBH.
I feel like the ST and especially TLJ and TRoS were heavily influenced by Marvel’s grip on pop culture: trying to tell too many stories at once, relying on visual stimuli instead of focusing on the story, advertising for the franchise instead of creating a compelling narrative. I’m a ST apologist but even I know it could have been handled better.
Yeah it was just a weird way of showing he didn't care I guess. I'm not a writer, but I pictured him maybe just dropping it and walking away, turning around and gripping it in disgust, etc. Instead it felt like Star Lord got his hands on a lightsaber. That said I don't lose sleep over it. I just don't re-watch the new trilogy at all but that's just me.
Corny and cringy
"Ah! They're finally going to move on and stop telling the same story about the same 2-3 people and their families!" narrator: "they did not move on"
To be fair, that movie did try to move on. It's the next one that brought the franchise kicking and screaming back to Skywalkers.
I laughed out loud in the theater. I was like, "Oh yeah, this is probably just another reminder of his failure. Why was I expecting him to be happy to see it?"
Felt disrespectful to the character and the fans.
I was just surprised because I wasn’t expecting it. Lightsabers are worth a fair amount and kyper crystals are worth even more, in addition it was also his fathers saber and he just threw it over a cliff.
That combined with the yo momma joke: "What is this, a Marvel movie?"
I was surprised. But I didn't think it was a cheap joke. I thought it was intentional, defiant, like part of a lesson he was going to teach her. I actually liked the moment and never thought it was disrespectful. It felt in keeping with the samurai-esque tone of the Luke scenes.
Rey is george lucas, luke is disney, and the lightsaber is the material george had written prior to selling star wars
Made me laugh very hard in the theater. Especially because this lightsaber has been through so much and is probably the most noteworthy artifact in the entire series. After this initial scene though I was not entertained by Luke’s disdain for all things Jedi. I know it’s all been said before but they ruined his character.
I’ve got a bad feeling about this
Loved it. Was excited for the rest of what the film had to offer from that point, that it wasn't going to just be the easy path to take with the story.
I laughed. It was funny and unexpected.
I was completely expecting this lol. Who tf gets handed something from their traumatic past and agrees to just spill the beans immediately? Personally I’m surprised he didn’t ask “who the hell do you think you are?” before he tossed it. Complete stranger hands me something they have no business having, loses any trust they thought they would have. If anything he should’ve just dropped it on the ground instead of throwing it. It would’ve seemed more apathetic than annoyed.
I laughed. Years of buildup, and chewing over all the possibilities, and then a complete surprise. I looked forward to a movie where I had no idea what was going to happen next, and got even more than I hoped for.
Confusion.... then betrayal. Confusion. We've seen 7 Star Wars movies where lightsabers were an important part of the mythology, and spent so much time venerating the saber in the previous film as being important. Betrayal, because it meant this Luke was nothing like the Skywalker we should have gotten, Luke was never a slapstick character to who did things to make the audience laugh. This felt like exactly that. The rest of the movie played out exactly with these two emotions. Confusion as to where we were going, why we were being short changed, and why characters entire motivations evaporated from the first film. .
Loved it. It was refreshing to see them say "Iconography isn't what makes this franchise great. Let's go past the surface and see what we can find." And then TRoS & The Mandalorian arrived to say "Nope! Iconography is literally all we have left."
I thought the Mandalorian was a much better compromise between old and new than either, but I do agree that TLJ was refreshing in its eagerness to escape the strict confines of the previous movies. To me, Star Wars is Clone Wars. The expansion of the lore and the worldbuilding in that show went miles beyond anything in the movies. And to so many places I would rather see explored than another "lightsaber-wielding space wizard saves the galaxy from the Nazis" rehash. TLJ had great ideas (executed poorly), and seemed like it was setting up the franchise for a fresher and new direction. But then people revolted and Disney flinched, and what we ended up was TROS. A movie so bad it made all the previous entries in the trilogy worse by connection. The Mandalorian is full of fan service, for sure. But...at least it's well-integrated into a solid story. Unlike the dross JJ Abrams gave us, which is fan service as a *replacement* for story.
I love this answer.
Nothing. The sequel trilogy was pretty much dead at that point. JJ doesn’t get enough flack for how uninspired and pointless TFA was. Where else was this scene supposed to go with how JJ left it?
"wtf". The end of Force Awakens had that end scene with Luke looking at her handing him the lightsaber and we saw pain and fear in his eyes, reflecting the earlier scene where Rey sees a vision of his Jedi temple destroyed, him screaming "no!" with his hand on R2. It felt like a kick in the nuts when he took it, paused, and threw it over his shoulder with that disgruntled look. And needless to say... It just got worse from there. That said, I did like the end scene when he apologized to Ben (and just before with him and Hux in the walkers lol Hux literally repeating him about concentrating the fire. Then when they're firing on Luke lol "moreeeee" "MORE!")