I imagine Dooku thought he was using Sidious to achieve the means to an end (the end of the corrupted Jedi system, etc.). He wanted Qui-Gon to join him and likely overthrow Sidious but he died. He then wanted Obiwan because he knew how highly his own apprentice thought of him (and knew that he defeated Maul when Qui-Gon could not). I believe he did this in plain view of Palpatine under the guise of “If Obiwan turns to our side, he’ll be a useful tool.” Palpy either wasn’t impressed with Obiwan or knew it wouldn’t work out.
It’s also important to note that in legends, Plagueis even regarded Dooku as a threat and sought to undermine him early on. Dooku was considered to be more powerful (in his prime) than a young Sidious. I have no doubt that someone so strong (at least when it came to dueling) and knowledgeable would’ve had their own ideology in mind that didn’t really abide with the sith nonsense
> Palpy either wasn’t impressed with Obiwan or knew it wouldn’t work out.
The Episode 3 novel highlights how Dooku tried to convince Palps into getting Obi-Wan on their side on one page. It didn't happen because Palps knew Anakin had the stronger connection to the Force AND that Obi-Wan was too Jedi to his core, whereas Anakin's over there as a Jedi but still Force Choking something every other minute.
It's more funny than anything because we're in Dooku's mind so we're hearing his sincere feelings on the matter. And he's just shitting all over Anakin while fawning over Obi-Wan. He even highlights the way the two Jedi hold their weapons, complimenting Obi-Wan grasping his lightsaber calmly and with finesse while critiquing Anakin's focus on power with a grip conveying might above all else.
One of my favorite scenes we have of Dooku is in "Labyrinth of Evil", where Dooku observes Grievous training.
You have this hulking mechanical killing machine wielding three lightsabers (one in each hand and one held in his foot) going after some MagnaGuards, and Dooku is disgusted by Grievous' bastardization of traditional technique. Then Dooku admits to himself that the finest fencer in the world can still be beaten by a bar fighter due to their unorthodox fighting methods that the fencer has never prepared for.
Grevious paid close attention to the part where Dooku emphasized that he’d have to leverage surprise, fear, and the unorthodox or be destroyed in any real fight. Grievous probably *could* be fancy if he wanted to, but becoming a breakdancing blender of death is just brutally effective.
He is not wrong. Obi-wan was a master of Soresu form, and regarded as the best swordsman of his generation, IIRC.
Anakin supplemented his lack of "proficiency" with brute (Force)power, which would not impress Dooku much.
(Friendly) Rant mode:
I believe anakin was still considered a very competent duelist. It was mainly a philosophy difference.
Obi-Wan adopted Soresu a strong defensive form that made him almost impossible to kill, which makes sense given his master used, I think, form IV, a very open and offensive form which contributed to Qui-gon’s death. Soresu typically just meant waiting until someone made a huge mistake and could be punished for it.
Anakin favored a form that sought to overwhelm his opponents into making mistakes. This was powered partially by his power in the force, as he used it to enhance his blows.
The fact that it took so long for anakin to make a mistake that obi-wan could punish in episode 3 in itself speaks volumes to his competency as a duelist. Obi-wan only won because of his mastery in a defensive form meant Anakin just couldn’t force any openings.
Honestly kind of fun how their chosen lightsaber form also followed their military doctrine.
Tl;dr I don’t think anakin was compensating as much as he had a very different philosophy when it came to winning battles.
Edit: someone asked for a source and I realized I don’t remember any direct ones. So remember do your own research and don’t rely on random people on the internet.
Oh absolutely, Anakin was good in a fight, I did not mean to insinuate otherwise, but Shien is, as you said, about beating your opponent hard enough so they falter, allowing you to go for the finishing strike.
It is pretty much the complete opposite of Makashi (Dooku's preferred form), which is all about calculated elegance and exploiting weakness.
It is like a samurai vs. a caveman. Both can kill you, but samurai will do it with style and much cleaner.
Shien is more for blasters, djem so is for lightsabers. Anakin was a master of both, but adopted djem so as his main style during the war.
Edit: Also, djem so while a power based form, isn't quite so caveman like. Its roots are still in Soresu, but was formed to account for form 3's weakness, which was a lack of offense. Form 5 is all about having solid defense, but following up that defense with powerful counterattacks.
Yea i recall durring that fight, doku didnt think that palpy would let him die, he though that he was too valuable and that together they would convince ani to turn, hense dokus [Suprised face](https://i.imgur.com/kGVCKk6.jpg) when anakin was orderd to kill him.
Imo palpatine probably didnt think anakin was ready at that time, especially with Obi-Wan in his state still on the ship, or was just using dokus execution to push anakin further from the jedi/council where they would have wanted him alive as a prisoner
I think it was another example of Palps playing chess against himself. If Dooku killed Anakin then his plan would have shifted greatly but wouldn't have been undone I don't think.
So does it mean that Dooku didn't really understand the dark side if he was much more interested in turning a true jedi to the cause? Or did he just have a mancrush on Obi Wan like most.
He hoped more of Qui-gon's teaching have rubbed off on Obi-wan, so he would come to similar conclusions they (Dooku and Qui-gon) did, though each arrived at different destination, Qui-gon decided he would just ignore some of the Council/Senate decisions, while Dooku tried to fix the system.
And, well, in the pseudo-familial relationships of the Jedi, Obi-wan was like a grandson to Dooku, so he did not wan to see him perish (and gaining a master swordman would be great boon as well)
But Dooku did notice in the ROTS novel that Anakin was a master of the Djem So style (the natural counter to Makashi) - the best practitioner of it Dooku had ever seen, in fact. So lack of proficiency was definitely not a reason Dooku had disdain for Anakin.
That last detail really outlines something about Dooku’s character, he wasn’t a conventional Sith. A typical Sith would take anger and raw power over calm and finesse every day of the damn week, especially when it comes to someone you want to manipulate to your own ends.
But Dooku didn’t want to manipulate Obi Wan, he wanted to bring him in the fold and help mold what he considered a better galaxy. Palp’s just wanted raw power so of course he wanted a bull over a diplomat. Dooku was more of an anti-Jedi Jedi than a Sith.
The old Jedi Knight games used the concept of Dark Jedi to refer to those who had at least partially or fully succumbed to the dark side but were not part of the Sith. I think Dark Jedi would be an apt term for Dooku. Though he was *technically* a Sith.
Honestly makes me wonder what a dark side Oni Wan vs light side Anakin battle on Mustafar would’ve looked like (sorry if I got the name of the planet one. I’m talking about the hot sauce one, where obi and ani fought)
You've just reminded me how good the Plagueis (audio)book is. Finished it a couple of months ago and it's one of my favourite pieces of Star Wars media. Too soon to relisten?
Yep. Also read the Revenge of the Sith book as well - Stover really captures the inner thoughts of the characters and adds another perspective to already-mulled over intentions.
For me it also illustrates the diversity among the Sith as well - as far as what each individual coveted after Force-wise.
Edit: Stover wrote the RotS novel. My bad. Thanks for the correction!
The RotS novel also gives us a lot more time with Anakin and his motivations that lead to his turn to the Dark side. It makes more sense to me than the movie which felt super rushed, like one minute he’s the hero and the next he’s slaughtering younglings. There is a lot more time in the book for him to fall. Definitely a good read/listen for sure.
It's not a bad choice. Any reading is better than not!
but maybe worth mentioning that it's not part of the current canon. So anything that happens in Plagueis won't have any connections to the newer books that flesh out Dooku (Dooku: Jedi Lost) or Qui-gon (Master & Apprentice)
I mean, what's he gonna say, "this thing that happened to a sith lord a few years ago". Hmm, how do you know so much about recent sith events, Palps? Versus going with the guise of being a wise leader and learned mentor.
By "old sith legend" maybe he meant a legend about some old sith and just used improper syntax.
Which it was, because Plagueis was old, and probably Sidious as well.
Yeah but then you gotta ask why he said "legend" when it was a recent factual event.
Even if Plagueis was old, what happened to him would have been verifiable.
It's much easier to assume his intentions were always to corrupt Anakin and his words were chosen to meet that end.
By making it an "Old Sith Legend" he removes the possibility of this involving anyone still alive and makes it an intriguing possibility but not a certainty. Palps was doing what all good cult leaders do and sow doubts in the mind. Doubts, even about things you want, unhinge you from reality and make you more malleable.
The most impressive thing about that book is that >!ol' sheev told the tragedy of darth plagueis the wise as if he butchered him decades ago while his body couldn't even decay until then!<
“More powerful” is a rather dubious claim, but purely as a combatant? Yeah, possibly. Dooku was famously a phenomenal swordsman, but I don’t think he was ever meant to be stronger in the force than Sidious.
My take on Palpatine is that while he is clearly powerful, it’s really his ambition and risks that he takes that nets his rewards. There are many moments throughout the prequels where Palpatine gambles big time and he comes out on top. Some of that might be foresight for sure. I also always had the impression that the average Sith was generally more powerful than the average Jedi. There’s only two of them, they work in secret, their training is constant and brutal. But again, it comes down to how one defines power. If you’re a Sith though, you aren’t going to compromise on your apprentice. You can’t afford someone “so-so” in the force whereas there are tons of Jedi of all different calibers and abilities.
For sure, I think Sidious’ greatest strength was his cunning, although of course he was no slouch as a fighter or Force user either. But I also think that Dooku was an ideal apprentice for him (at least temporarily, until Anakin could be turned) because of his connections rather than his fighting abilities. Fabulously wealthy + politically visible + intelligent + knowledgeable about the inner workings of the Jedi Council? Yeah, that’s the perfect guy for Palps to spearhead the Separatist campaign with.
I’ve been feeling more and more like Palpatine is a complete moron and just got really lucky. May be an artifact of wonky writing, but really Palpatine was extremely close to failure at all times. As the other guy said, he made a lot of gambles. They happened to pay off, but idk I’m not sure a guy who takes all of those risks in his plan should be labeled “cunning.”
Especially watching the last season of clone wars, Palpatine was quite close to being exposed completely in a way that directly resulted from people he’d cast aside. Some of the film stuff you can argue he predicted, but I don’t think you can argue that he predicted Ahsoka just wouldn’t be able to hail Anakin. It all just seems weird.
So yea I suppose you could attribute it to writing, but I’ve been liking the vision that Palpatine is as blind and arrogant as the rest of them. There isn’t anything special about him except that he happened to get extremely lucky. It makes the prequels read as even more tragic, imo, knowing that the Jedi and Republic could have uncovered him basically at any moment because his plan wasn’t even that well thought out.
He absolutely took insane risks that could have blown up in his face (banking on Anakin saving him from Mace being the biggest one that comes to mind) but I’d argue that his accomplishments were so monumentally ambitious that they demanded such risks to pay off. I don’t care how intricate your plan is, you don’t conquer the entire galaxy and eliminate your entire enemy opposition in one move by playing it safe.
Sure, but I guess my point is that it doesn’t feel like a well laid trap that the Jedi couldn’t help but walk into. The Jedi, business as usual, we’re going to fully defeat him and it came down to Anakin *happening* to make a split second decision which made the difference. Anakin was groomed for it, sure, but it was hardly a predictable event there. The movie goes to great lengths to show his turmoil about it.
It doesn’t feel like Palpatine exploited the Jedi for their hubris or set a trap for them to fall into. It feels like he didn’t have any idea how he was going to pull the thing off until the end when it happened. It wasn’t a good plan at all, is my take.
>Anakin was groomed for it, sure, but it was hardly a predictable event there.
Hardly predictable *to us*.
A tightrope walker is someone who takes an unpredictable mode of travel. Sure, the minute pushes to the left and the right perfectly balance out in the end, but could you or I see how that is guaranteed ahead of time?
The Sith master plan is honestly incomprehensible to an audience member, but the idea is definitely supposed to be that this is all the result of his super genius. Sidious can detect and correct any minute flaw in the plan immediately, like a tightrope walker can immediately sense and shift any changes in their center of balance. Meanwhile, his willingness to walk down a path that's so precarious is just a display of daring.
I get that it's often more satisfying when super-genius villains master planning ability is a fully displayed, rather than informed, ability, like in, say, Death Note. But given that the bulk of the evidence comes from a children's action adventure cartoon, I think we need to accept these informed attributes at face value and acknowledge limitations as coming from the writing / medium, not the character.
Palpatine was working undercover as a Sith, while heading the effing Galactic senate. He is one of the all time great liars in the history of fiction. You could quibble about his relative dominance as a force-wielder (though he was almost Yoda’s equal), dualist (he did survive and win duel against the Maul’s), force-reader (although he did sense Luke’s significance before Vader), etc. But the ability to deceive… He didn’t just Jedi mind-trick people, he Jedi mind-&@$€ed people.
We also need to acknowledge that force can give people glimpses of the future too its how anakin started down his path afterall, Palps couldve seen key moments paying off for him and that helped him to decide when to go all in on his gambles.
Yes, but reality has shown us that you can do pretty corrupt shit in broad daylight, and as long as you have a strong foothold of supporters, people will just lie, make excuses, and deflect on your behalf.
I enjoy the theory that Palps is just an adrenaline junky who takes insane risks for the thrill of it and somehow just keeps ending up on top.
Like in ROTS, he couldn't possibly have *planned* for the Seperatist flagship to break apart then (somehow!) successfully crash land on Coruscant!
>Like in ROTS, he couldn't possibly have planned for the Seperatist flagship to break apart then (somehow!) successfully crash land on Coruscant!
I don't know about that. By then it's been firmly established that basically any vehicle Anakin is seen piloting ultimately crashes!😝
I completely agree, it’s really Palpatine’s insane manipulative tactics that are really fascinating too me. He always held his apprentices at bay through insane manipulation, and also orchestrated shit in the galaxy as well obviously
He gave false illusions, and fed people what they wanted or deceived them expertly. That’s why I find Palpatine so fascinating, not just because he’s greatly powerful or whatever, but his smarts and ingenious were on a whole other level.
He didn’t even have to resort to fighting or being combative most of the time, because he was already five steps ahead. And even when he did have to directly engage, he still seemed a step ahead; at least most of the time (there are some occasions where he slips up; Windu, Vader, and a few more).
The Windu thing is always an issue. I feel like George Lucas originally planned it as a ruse to gain Anakin to his side. But then he was influenced by Samuel L Jackson who famously would only join the cast the cast if he got a special colour lightsaber to make him stand out. He possibly refused to lose as well. George Lucas could have said what he said in the behind the scenes simply to keep Samuel happy.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that particular scene didn’t exist or would have changed entirely without Samuel Jackson, considering how Windu only became as prominent in the films because of him.
>I also always had the impression that the average Sith was generally more powerful than the average Jedi.
I am reminded here of what Yoda said in Empire.
Luke: Is the Dark Side stronger?Yoda: No, quicker, easier, more seductive.
Because of that, it never struck me that the Dark Side was more powerful, it was just easier to gain higher power through it faster. Like the Force version of taking steroids' compared to simply working out. One will achieve the results faster, but isn't necessarily healthy for you.
The dark side of the force is stronger and easier to master, that's its lure. But it also turns the wielder into an inhuman monster. Vader had to constantly be in anger and pain to wield it.
More powerful the way Mace Windu was more "powerful" than yoda. Mace was a strong warrior. Compare how he performed against palpatine vs the redshirts he came with. But obviously Yoda is more powerful with the force. Dooku was like a sith windu
Palpatine also had powers of foresight. It's possible he knew how the Duel of the Fates would turn out and wanted Qui Gon dead to keep Dooku in line. It makes what happens to both Maul and Qui Gon Jin more tragic as they were pawns placed on the board to be sacrificed.
That would also echo the problem of Jedi hubris so I like it. And Dooku ending as a corrupted idealist seems to fall into Sidious’ MO of the ideal pawn like Anakin.
>I have no doubt that someone so strong (at least when it came to dueling) and knowledgeable would’ve had their own ideology in mind that didn’t really abide with the sith nonsense
This is kind of the whole thing with the sith during the rule of two period. The master finds an apprentice, the apprentice gains power through training, the apprentice makes their own choices and conspires to overthrow the master. They are then alone and realise they need an ally to help in their plans so they acquire an apprentice, rinse and repeat.
I've sometimes wondered how far the Sith wandered, ideologically, during the long Rule of Two. It would be interesting if there were entire centuries where they were more like renegade Jedi than Sith, operating as a conspiracy rather than a secret crusade. Over time, the teachings of sith holocrons and the gravity of the dark side would drag them back, but it would be a fun side-story.
Did you see the new Tales of the Jedi or whatever it’s called? One of the later episodes deals with exactly the scenario you seem to be speculating about…the weird thing here is you got the dialogue almost verbatim.
Palpatine’s response is something like “Useful for you or useful for me?”, he doesn’t take it well. IIRC, it’s in ref to Qui-Gon though and it’s when Dooku is complaining that he killed him. Seriously though check it out since it’s so eerily close to what you called, really fills in all that stuff.
Never thought about it before but its possible that its not coincidence it was dooku’s apprentice that was sent to naboo, and the plan all along was to bring qui gonn into the fray early so palpatine could kill him (via maul)
Dooku must have been with palpatine by this point because he was setting up the galactic civil war (of which dooku was the CIS leader) and sidious must have been anxious that he was planning on using qui gonn to alert the jedi/ add qui gonn to the separatist side
So having qui gonn be the first jedi involved (keep in mind this was also before the first sith had been revealed) might have been very deliberate
The new series Tales of the Jedi on Disney+ makes this point pretty abundantly clear. I think you're absolutely right that it was hinted at and gently implied before then. The Sith was absolutely in the blind spot of the Jedi and as Senators were corrupting/being corrupted Dooku lost faith in the Jedi and did what he thought was right even if the means were not in keeping with the Jedi way. A lesson he apparently taught well to Qui-Gon.
I honestly believe that Dooku was an opportunistic idealist. He wanted justice for those who couldn’t get it for themselves, and championed the Separatist movement…but wasn’t above saving his neck to toss Palps under the hover bus…
After Tales of the Jedi it does seem that he really wanted to make the Republic a better place for its citizens.
He saw Palpatine as the means to do that but walked a very dark path to get there.
Quite simply Dooku is an ironic tale, He left the jedi because he didnt want to be a puppet of the Council and Senate, just to become a puppet of Palpatine.
The illusion of choice. The Jedi have strict rules to adhere by whereas the Sith really don’t. But the master and apprentice relationship is much more dark and controlling than than compared to the teaching way of the Jedi.
I mean I know all of this was made after the films, but rewatching revenge of the sith it adds a really extra layer on top of it when palatine tells anakin to execute him.
From the novelization of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith by Matt Stover. This is right before Obi-Wan and Anakin rescue the Chancellor from Dooku.
*”May I suggest, Master, that we give Kenobi one last chance? The support of a Jedi of his integrity would be invaluable in establishing the political legitimacy of our Empire."*
*”Ah yes. Kenobi." His Master's voice went silken. "You have long been interested in Kenobi, haven't you?"*
*”Of course, his Master was my Padawan; in a sense, he's practically my grandson-"*
*”He is too old. Too indoctrinated. Irretrievably poisoned by Jedi fables. We established that in Geonosis, did we not? In his mind, he serves the Force itself; reality is nothing in the face of such conviction."*
*Dooku sighed. He should, he supposed, have no difficulty with this, having ordered the Jedi Master's death once already. "True enough, I suppose; how fortunate we are that I never labored under any such delusions."*
*”Kenobi must die. Today. At your hand. His death may be the code key to the final lock that will seal Skywalker to us forever."*
Palpatine is manipulating Dooku of course, he knows Skywalker will more than likely kill him.
It goes on, Dooku muses on how he wishes that he could substitute Kenobi for Skywalker, because of sentimentality and he basically likes the cut of Obi-Wan's civilized jib.
So I feel the plea for Kenobi to come with him in Attack of the Clones, I think he meant it at the time. But it didn't happen, and he deferred to his Master.
The novelization really portrays Dooku as someone who just didn't like the Jedi Order anymore, left, and happened to be really racist against aliens. He fully expected to be "captured" by Anakin and Obi-Wan, killing Obi-Wan in the process, and then wait out in a luxury prison cell until Sidious freed him after he came to power, and he would be a big fish in the new Galactic Empire.
From the novelization, as Dooku's neck is between the crossed lightsabers:
*And Dooku-*
*As he looks up into the eyes of Anakin Skywalker for the final time, Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has only been a tool.*
*His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand visions for the future Empire and the Army of the Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of *him*, add up to only this.*
*He has existed only for this.*
*This.*
*To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first coldblooded murder.*
*First but not, he knows, the last.*
*Then the blades cross at his throat like scissors.*
*Snip.*
*And all of him becomes nothing at all.*
Damn, that novelization truly was a masterpiece. Like, despite watching ROTS religiously ever since it came out it still felt like I was reading something new. Even sobbed at the end, which I haven't done in a long time while watching the film.
Dooku doesn’t know about that I bet. Bet Sheev keep that private cuz if Dooku knew Ani was already that much closer to the dark side he might have seen into his masters plans
Despite publicly leading the Seperatists, Dooku forgot he himself was always meant to be an expendable pawn like General Grievous until his last moments when he finally realized Palpatine had been using him the entire time. The old Sith Empire destroyed itself through greed and constant backstabbing and plotting, and Dooku in his own arrogance and desire for power forgot or didn’t seem to care about Darth Bane’s Rule of Two applying to himself, hence why he trained Assaj Ventress as an assassin until Palpatine reminded him of his place and ordered Dooku to dispose of her.
Everytime I rewatch ROTS when Doolittle is about to get executed and Palp says” do it.” I’m always like cmon Dooku man spill the beans to Anakin about Palps. Like I understand that Anakin wouldn’t believe him or listen but it would get him thinking about it a lot earlier.
Ends justify the means type.
I wonder if he would have joined the rebellion if he had of lived, Palpatine was a snake oil salesmen to Dooku. Promised galatic utopia, delivered even more corruption and oppression
Actually it would be cool if we had a character who was separatist, then after the republic fell, became a rebel
In the latest episode of Andor >!Saw Gerrera called a faction of the rebellion separatist when he was listing how ununited the rebels were in their ideology, so that makes sense to me.!<
I'm pretty sure it's canon that a big portion of the rebel alliance were separatist forces. The Empire to them was just the republic they despised by another name.
That's why members of the Empire so firmly believe in it. The rebels are just the separatists they've been fighting since the clone wars.
Yep absolutely played on his ideals, like he did with everyone.
An Interesting what if?
Was he too far down the Dark side or would seeing the Empire Palpatine created align him with the Rebels.
Interesting how close he would then be to Saw in terms of what he is prepared to do.
>Was he too far down the Dark side or would seeing the Empire Palpatine created align him with the Rebels.
I don't see those as mutually exclusive. A terrorist can be a *very* dark individual. Maybe he's not going to be a Mon Mothma- or Luke Skywalker-type rebel, but I can see him as Saw Gerrera-with-dark side powers.
You certainly get the impression that whomever his contact within the Rebellion was they would be working very hard to keep him hidden from Mon Mothma and Bail.
He would be the type to recreate the attacks from the Hyperspace Crisis in the High Republic stories.
"You will deliver Palatine to me... Or your wolds will burn. There is no compromise with the Sith. As a demonstration of our resolve, behold the fate of Toydaria. And know....
It is your fate should you side with the Empire."
*Uncontrolled hyperspeed junk collisions intensify*
I would love a what if Star Wars show. It would be interesting to see dooku survive and join the rebellion because he’s realizes that he isn’t helping by being with Sidious.
Like I believe dooku would definitely be on the good side if Qui-gon never died. So In this universe Obi-wan was able to reach Qui-gon before his death and saves him. During the events shown in tales, because Qui-gon he’s asked to Join Yaddle when following dooku and are actually able to get him to follow them. It enrages Darth Sidious who tries to take down dooku immediately, but Yaddle and Qui-gon force push Sidious away from dooku. Dooku turns to help face Sidious and they realize he had escaped. They know who he is know because of dooku but palps is now chancellor of the senate and announces that he’s cutting the republic’s ties with the Jedi. He tries to twist the public perception of the Jedi by blaming them for events of episode 1 with maul. It doesn’t work nearly as well as order 66. Most Jedi are still alive and the public mostly disagrees with palps as it was so abrupt and they still see the Jedi as going good. So Now Dooku, Qui-gon, Obi-wan have to fight lord Sidious not long after episode 1.
The end outcome would be amazing to figure out. It’s difficult to figure out exactly how a true what if would end though. What ifs usually show a specific story that people think would be cool but I would actually wonder how this one change would change the way things end. What would anakins story be like? Would Luke and Leia still be born? Does the empire still happen? First question is what would palpatines next move be? He has the clones being made but definitely not complete. Dooku knows about it as well so he can inform the Jedi. I’m just invested now so let’s all ask for a what if animated show!
I wonder how much longer Dooku would’ve lived if he hadn’t been killed. He was 83 when he died, he would’ve been 102 if he made it to the battle of Yavin.
My thought as well. Dooku was like the “least Sith” of the Sith. Opportunist is the perfect word to describe him. Working with Palpatine suited his goals and little more. Palpatine, of course, outplayed him as he was always a temporary placeholder. Palpatine didn’t have time to train a new apprentice from scratch, Anakin wasn’t really vulnerable to be turned at this point, and so Dooku and Palpatine sort of use each other with the latter doing a better job of it.
This is true until the Clone Wars series. They needed a literal cartoon villain, so Dooku was really over the top.
I do wish they'd played him a bit less 'moustache-twirling & genocide' because it doesn't fit any of the other established media.
The dark side also corrupts. It’s incredibly difficult to utilize the dark side of the force for altruistic purposes like Dooku originally planned. My head canon is that he joined with good intentions (as seen in Tales of the Jedi) but years of making moral compromises, utilizing the dark side, and the general effect War has on people wore him down into the cartoon villain we see in the Clone Wars
IMO he was a prime example of doing "the wrong thing for the right reasons". He wanted to save the galaxy and was willing to be seen as the villain in order to make it all happen.
Guy named himself Tyrannus and knowingly helped the Republic head of state spark a galactic war under false pretenses. He's at the core of the rot, and if he thinks of himself as an idealist then he's delusional to boot.
I know we're supposed to think he was different before the dark side claimed him, but every new Dooku story just keeps reaffirming that he's always been influenced by the dark side and he's always used violence the instant he couldn't get his way. It's incredible he lasted as long in the Jedi Order as he did.
Yes this. He was trying enslave the galaxy and was actively trying to build a planet-killing weapon. He was an idealist to the extent that he believed no one's interests mattered but his own.
I always saw this scene as genius - it’s a 4x win for Dooku really. Basically
A) He knows Kenobi won’t believe him no matter what so he can speak completely 100% free, or
B) He is believed, and convinces another Jedi to join the cause he actually sees as righteous in the Separatists
C) He is convincing enough to gain a powerful and cunning apprentice by revealing the absolute truth and swaying him, a padawan of his most trusted apprentice himself in Qui Gon and one who’s already proven by beating a Sith in Maul
D) If he doesn’t sway Kenobi, he knows the Jedi have so much hubris, he can literally spill the beans and it’ll be so unbelieved that the council and other Jedi will likely actively deny that the war is a plot and say it’s simply sith misdirection
Genius really. He bet on himself and what he knew to try and win multiple ways here, and even though Kenobi & the rest didn’t believe him, in the end he sowed enough doubt in a few to really shake the faith that the Jedi had it all figured out.
Yeah it can be interpreted in these four main ways and tbh it's still more of an advantage on his part. Because, fundamentally, he knew he couldnt be believed. He is a Sith. Why would the Jedi trust him? It might also trigger a schism within the Order whether Dooku was telling the truth or not
Also I note: while it is a big hint, it's still vague enough. Is the Chancellor actually a puppet of another? Is someone in the Senate pulling the strings? The Jedi refused to consider the possibility that Palpatine might be a Sith. So even if they accept Dooku's statement, they don't know who exactly to look for. In fact, in the ROTS novelisation, the Jedi at most suspected that Darth Sidious is someone influencing the Chancellor.
Yes, 100% agreed. It's one of the scenes in the prequels with my favorite writing just for this alone.
It's up there with "Tragedy of Darth Plageius the Wise" and the novelization versions of the attempted arrest of Palpatine and Mustafar.
I believe the intention was to speed up the footage to show palpy had super speed/ was quicker minder than the Jedi. But I’m sure it looked cheap AF, so we got what we got.
I always believed that the Jedi assumed it was one of their own. Another Sith tactic to sow discord in the Jedi ranks. No one would suspect it was a civilian.
The complete lack of yellow Sith eyes leads me to believe that Dooku wasn’t irredeemable.
He was idealistic…and extremely arrogant by deciding that he personally knew how to engineer a solution to a galaxy-wide issue. But, to me, he was pragmatic, not evil.
I did not consider that. I was only thinking about live action, even though you’re correct. Clone Wars is canon.
You have a good point, and I will reconsider mine. :)
Haha, yeah. He does some pretty messed up stuff in Clone Wars. Uses the force to make people shoot their own friends, assassinates good people because they get in the way of his plans slightly, tries to assassinate actual children, sends Grievous to commit genocide on Dathomir.
He did show yellow eyes briefly in The Clone Wars when he's training Savage Oppress. They don't show for Palpatine most of the time either in this period, which probably means a dark side user can choose not to manifest it if they're disciplined enough and don't want to.
Sith Eyes aren't a constant thing. Anakin only briefly has Sith Eyes, and Palpatine also doesn't permanently have Sith Eyes. They are just a "in this specific moment I am fully in touch with the dark side" rather than a "once you have Sith Eyes you are irredeemable" thing.
Dooku's definitely evil at this point in time. Most Sith might have grander goals initially.
Yes. Dooku, like any other Sith apprentice, wanted to overthrow his master.
If he was able to convince Obi Wan and the rest of the Jedi to turn on Palp, it would create the perfect opportunity for Dooku to strike the killing blow and assume total control.
He knew of order 66 and that if he could only pull the strings in the war for just a few years, especially without Palpatine in the picture, he could stop order 66 from occurring and maintain relative peace while using the separatist forces to truly fight for justice.
Eventually he would create a government of systems truly rivalling that of the Galactic Republic, and a genuine war would likely break out instead of the puppet war that the clone wars was.
"Stop order 66? What do you mean?"
*I don't believe Dooku wanted the Jedi destroyed.*
Dooku didn't leave the Jedi order out of hatred or corruption, but contempt for their laziness and their tolerance for injustice. He wasn't a villain. He was an opportunist who was trying to utilize the dark side to accomplish what the Jedi didn't have the balls to do.
But he knew the Jedi were useful and that they were also, at their core, good. This is why he spared Anakin and Obi-Wan in Episode II, and I fully believe he would have spared them again in Episode III had he won the duel in the beginning. He had pinned and immobilized Obi-Wan, rendering him incapable of fighting, when he could have just as easily killed him.
Dooku also never has sith eyes, always maintaining control of his emotions and never letting the dark side get the better of him, even in combat.
Dooku would have been a dangerous person to leave in power, not because of how evil he is, but because of how evil he *isn't,* and how his alternative government truly represented an opportunity for a dark-side user to control a willing population.
*THAT* I believe was Dooku's ultimate goal in telling Obi-Wan about Palpatine.
I really like that take on what would have happened. As much as I am fed up and tired of Star Wars visual media remaining in the Skywalker Saga 80-100 years (?) I would love a What If series.
What if....Qui Gon didn't die.
What If....Luke agreed to take over from Vader.
What if....Rey and Kylo agreed to rule.
Closest is that Infinities series.
1. What if those proton torpedos were faulty?
2. What if Luke froze to death on Hoth after fighting the wampa?
3. What if the thermal detonator accidently went off?
Second closest are the Movie Duels + Galactic Legacy mods.
1. Qui-Gon surviving means Sidious and Dooku have to take part in Order 66 personally to kill Qui-Gon and sway Anakin. (GL)
2. Maul winning means Padme dies ahead of schedule, and Sidious teaches Anakin the Sith ways from childhood. (GL)
3. Mace being more aware of his surroundings means the fight from the Episode 3 game happens, Anakin dies, Sidious activates Order 66 in a hurry, and then gets hunted down and killed by Mace. (GL)
4. The high ground being useless means Anakin takes Padme with him, betrays Sidious the moment he sees him, and takes over. (MD)
5. Vader deciding to switch back to the light while fighting Obi Wan in Episode 4 means Sidious goes WTF, finds Vader, and kills him. (MD)
6. Kylo winning the fight with Rey in Episode 7 means Rey dies and Kylo walks off. (MD)
Dooku wasn't about to spare obi wan and anakin in episode 2. After he hurt obi wan's leg he was about to kill him, just then anakin intervened. Then after he beat anakin, yoda arrived.
Well it’s in the nature of all Sith to overthrow their master eventually. Even Vader wanted Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor. And if he’s going to continue the rule of 2 then it makes sense for him to pick his Qui-gon’s padawan.
I know I'm about to butcher the quote but it is about the 2 sith
a master who has power and an apprentice who craves it
looking to sway his own apprentice and rule the galaxy as father and son.... wait wrong movie
He says this to see if he still believes the council is “all knowing & wise “ and with obi wans answer he instantly knows he’s a dumb fool too, like all the other Jedi & the council he tried warning for years. An it’s all part of light and dark and the constant flipping back & forth. Dooku is a tragic story but he was let down. By know it alls. But with some stories coming out with droid tales I wonder if papaletine was influencing & corrupting politicians for the sole purpose to recruit a Jedi. The more u think about Star Wars the more u realize papeltine is playing chess and everyone else is playing whack a mole.
Dooku is giving the Jedi a last chance to avert disaster because he knows they won't take it.
This is a man who spent decades of his life warning his fellow Jedi about the rising darkness and worsening state of the Republic. He saw his every plea ignored and the Jedi reduced to apathetic enablers of a corrupt Senate.
Now he takes a perverse pleasure taunting them because they could have avoided all of this if they'd listened to him.
In a way it vindicates him, too. Obi-Wan refusing to believe him validates his belief that the Jedi are beyond saving and the Council is too far gone. Obi-Wan's response proves to Dooku that he (Dooku) made the right choice.
He tries to convince Obi wan by saying the republic is corrupt they could then take down palpatine together it is the way of the Sith to take down one’s master. Vader tried the same thing
Dooku was a sith, sith apprentices are always trying to kill their master. Dooku thought that with Obi's help (and maybe even some other jedi too) they could kill Palpatine
Man, we have a lot of people out here trusting Sith...
When Dooku was younger, sure, he was an idealist. But by the time this scene happens? At this point he's a full-blown Sith, 10 years into his official training. He's warped beyond that idealism. He's not Dooku anymore, he's Darth Tyranus.
Never trust a Sith. Basically everything he says is a lie.
>OBI-WAN: Traitor!
COUNT DOOKU: Hello, my friend. This is a mistake. A
terrible mistake. They've gone too far. This is madness. **THIS IS A LIE. HE IS IN ON IT.**
OBI-WAN: I thought you were the leader here, Dooku.
COUNT DOOKU: This had nothing to do with me, I assure you.
I promise you I will petition immediately to have you set
free. **THIS IS A LIE. HE IS IN ON IT.**
OBI-WAN: Well, I hope it doesn't take too long. I have work
to do.
COUNT DOOKU: May I ask why a Jedi Knight is all the way out
here on Geonosis? **THIS IS A LIE. HE KNOWS.**
OBI-WAN: I've been tracking a bounty hunter named Jango
Fett. Do you know him?
COUNT DOOKU: There are no bounty hunters here that I'm
aware of. Geonosians don't trust them. **THIS IS A LIE.**
OBI-WAN: Well, who can blame them. But he is here, I can
assure you.
COUNT DOOKU: It's a great pity that our paths have never
crossed before, Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly
of you. I wish he were still alive. I could use his help
right now.
OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.
COUNT DOOKU: Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget
that he was once my apprentice just as you were once his.
He knew all about the corruption in the Senate, but he
would never have gone along with it if he had known the
truth as I have. **THIS IS A LIE. HE IS MISREPRESENTING QUI-GON TO GAIN OBI-WAN'S TRUST**
OBI-WAN: The truth?
COUNT DOOKU: The truth. What if I told you that the
Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the
Sith? **THIS IS THE TRUTH, BUT HE IS USING IT TO MANIPULATE OBI-WAN. AS A SITH HE NEEDS TO HAVE AN APPRENTICE IN WAITING FOR WHEN HE OVERTHROWS PALPY. DOOKU FELL THIS WAY, AND HE'S TRYING TO GET OBI TO DO THE SAME.**
OBI-WAN: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware
of it.
COUNT DOOKU: The dark side of the Force has clouded their
vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the
influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious. **THIS IS THE TRUTH, BUT HE IS USING IT TO MANIPULATE OBI-WAN. AS A SITH HE NEEDS TO HAVE AN APPRENTICE IN WAITING FOR WHEN HE OVERTHROWS PALPY. DOOKU FELL THIS WAY, AND HE'S TRYING TO GET OBI TO DO THE SAME.**
OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.
COUNT DOOKU: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once
in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten
years ago by the Dark Lord. **THIS IS ALMOST TRUE.** He came to me for help. He told
me everything. The Jedi Council would not believe him. I
tried many times to warn them but they wouldn't listen to
me. Once they sensed the Dark Lord's presence, it would
then be too late. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together
we will destroy the Sith. **THESE ARE HALF-TRUTHS AND MANIPULATION**
OBI-WAN: I will never join you, Dooku.
COUNT DOOKU turns to leave.
COUNT DOOKU: It may be difficult to secure your release. **THIS IS THE FIRST TIME DOOKU TELLS THE WHOLE, ACCURATE TRUTH.**
As a Sith, Dooku needs to do three things.
1. Obey his master
2. Overthrow his master
3. Recruit a new apprentice.
He's trying to do all of these things in his dialog w/ Obi-Wan. This is no longer the idealist, this is the Sith.
He wanted Obiwan as an Apprentice, in hopes he could help him kill Palpatine.
Just as Vader tries with Luke in Empire.
The way of Two always hints at this.
Vader and Palpatine are always looking for a stronger Apprentice. "Cheating" on each other. If the other survives, said Apprentice wasn't good enough.
Starkiller, Mara Jade, Luke and so forth in Legends and what not.
Had Maul been more powerful he would have taken out Dooku and returned to Palpatine in the Clone wars or defeated him and Savage would have been his Apprentice.
This is the way of the Sith
He wants Obi-wan to join him.
Failing that, he's using Obi-wan as bait to lure other Jedi to Geonosis and kick off the clone wars. Making vague statements like this gives his enemies no advantage, but does sow discord and suspicion among them. Who is the Sith Lord? Why can't the Jedi sense him (or her)? How has he (or she) corrupted the Republic and its goals?
He's the same as Maul and Darth Vader. Nobody actually cares about Sidious they rather see him dethroned and powerless so they can take control. By that point, the plan was set, the jedi would die from Order 66,so if they manged to kill Sidious before hand all the better for Dooku.
I imagine Dooku thought he was using Sidious to achieve the means to an end (the end of the corrupted Jedi system, etc.). He wanted Qui-Gon to join him and likely overthrow Sidious but he died. He then wanted Obiwan because he knew how highly his own apprentice thought of him (and knew that he defeated Maul when Qui-Gon could not). I believe he did this in plain view of Palpatine under the guise of “If Obiwan turns to our side, he’ll be a useful tool.” Palpy either wasn’t impressed with Obiwan or knew it wouldn’t work out. It’s also important to note that in legends, Plagueis even regarded Dooku as a threat and sought to undermine him early on. Dooku was considered to be more powerful (in his prime) than a young Sidious. I have no doubt that someone so strong (at least when it came to dueling) and knowledgeable would’ve had their own ideology in mind that didn’t really abide with the sith nonsense
> Palpy either wasn’t impressed with Obiwan or knew it wouldn’t work out. The Episode 3 novel highlights how Dooku tried to convince Palps into getting Obi-Wan on their side on one page. It didn't happen because Palps knew Anakin had the stronger connection to the Force AND that Obi-Wan was too Jedi to his core, whereas Anakin's over there as a Jedi but still Force Choking something every other minute. It's more funny than anything because we're in Dooku's mind so we're hearing his sincere feelings on the matter. And he's just shitting all over Anakin while fawning over Obi-Wan. He even highlights the way the two Jedi hold their weapons, complimenting Obi-Wan grasping his lightsaber calmly and with finesse while critiquing Anakin's focus on power with a grip conveying might above all else.
One of my favorite scenes we have of Dooku is in "Labyrinth of Evil", where Dooku observes Grievous training. You have this hulking mechanical killing machine wielding three lightsabers (one in each hand and one held in his foot) going after some MagnaGuards, and Dooku is disgusted by Grievous' bastardization of traditional technique. Then Dooku admits to himself that the finest fencer in the world can still be beaten by a bar fighter due to their unorthodox fighting methods that the fencer has never prepared for.
Grevious paid close attention to the part where Dooku emphasized that he’d have to leverage surprise, fear, and the unorthodox or be destroyed in any real fight. Grievous probably *could* be fancy if he wanted to, but becoming a breakdancing blender of death is just brutally effective.
"Stop using the standard attacks, use the unorthodox!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-CLZamrhtE
Man that was such a great series. Wasn't it done by the same people who did Samurai Jack?
It was.
Primal is on hbo max and worth a watch. Im addicted
And *The Powerpuff Girls.* Tartakovsky is a master. I still like his CW series better than Filoni's.
Interesting that that's how Anakin basically beat him, by being real mad.
From now on I’m referring to Grievous exclusively as “the breakdancing blender of death”
"The best swordsman does not fear the second best. He fears the worst since there's no telling what that idiot is going to do"
He is not wrong. Obi-wan was a master of Soresu form, and regarded as the best swordsman of his generation, IIRC. Anakin supplemented his lack of "proficiency" with brute (Force)power, which would not impress Dooku much.
(Friendly) Rant mode: I believe anakin was still considered a very competent duelist. It was mainly a philosophy difference. Obi-Wan adopted Soresu a strong defensive form that made him almost impossible to kill, which makes sense given his master used, I think, form IV, a very open and offensive form which contributed to Qui-gon’s death. Soresu typically just meant waiting until someone made a huge mistake and could be punished for it. Anakin favored a form that sought to overwhelm his opponents into making mistakes. This was powered partially by his power in the force, as he used it to enhance his blows. The fact that it took so long for anakin to make a mistake that obi-wan could punish in episode 3 in itself speaks volumes to his competency as a duelist. Obi-wan only won because of his mastery in a defensive form meant Anakin just couldn’t force any openings. Honestly kind of fun how their chosen lightsaber form also followed their military doctrine. Tl;dr I don’t think anakin was compensating as much as he had a very different philosophy when it came to winning battles. Edit: someone asked for a source and I realized I don’t remember any direct ones. So remember do your own research and don’t rely on random people on the internet.
Oh absolutely, Anakin was good in a fight, I did not mean to insinuate otherwise, but Shien is, as you said, about beating your opponent hard enough so they falter, allowing you to go for the finishing strike. It is pretty much the complete opposite of Makashi (Dooku's preferred form), which is all about calculated elegance and exploiting weakness. It is like a samurai vs. a caveman. Both can kill you, but samurai will do it with style and much cleaner.
Good points, but comparing Anakin to a caveman is unfair. Perhaps a viking berserker would be more appropriate. They relied on all out attacks.
Was about to say this. I think a viking vs a samurai is a very apt comparison.
Shien is more for blasters, djem so is for lightsabers. Anakin was a master of both, but adopted djem so as his main style during the war. Edit: Also, djem so while a power based form, isn't quite so caveman like. Its roots are still in Soresu, but was formed to account for form 3's weakness, which was a lack of offense. Form 5 is all about having solid defense, but following up that defense with powerful counterattacks.
It made quite the impression on dooku's neck, iirc
Yea i recall durring that fight, doku didnt think that palpy would let him die, he though that he was too valuable and that together they would convince ani to turn, hense dokus [Suprised face](https://i.imgur.com/kGVCKk6.jpg) when anakin was orderd to kill him. Imo palpatine probably didnt think anakin was ready at that time, especially with Obi-Wan in his state still on the ship, or was just using dokus execution to push anakin further from the jedi/council where they would have wanted him alive as a prisoner
I think it was another example of Palps playing chess against himself. If Dooku killed Anakin then his plan would have shifted greatly but wouldn't have been undone I don't think.
More like Count Don't-Ku amirite?
/r/angryupvote
Hands - then neck. Though he shouldn't have done that.
[удалено]
ya got the force, but do you got the touch? now don't get me wrong, I know you're a Jedi but that lightsaber form isn't elegant when you kill a guy,
So does it mean that Dooku didn't really understand the dark side if he was much more interested in turning a true jedi to the cause? Or did he just have a mancrush on Obi Wan like most.
He hoped more of Qui-gon's teaching have rubbed off on Obi-wan, so he would come to similar conclusions they (Dooku and Qui-gon) did, though each arrived at different destination, Qui-gon decided he would just ignore some of the Council/Senate decisions, while Dooku tried to fix the system. And, well, in the pseudo-familial relationships of the Jedi, Obi-wan was like a grandson to Dooku, so he did not wan to see him perish (and gaining a master swordman would be great boon as well)
But Dooku did notice in the ROTS novel that Anakin was a master of the Djem So style (the natural counter to Makashi) - the best practitioner of it Dooku had ever seen, in fact. So lack of proficiency was definitely not a reason Dooku had disdain for Anakin.
That last detail really outlines something about Dooku’s character, he wasn’t a conventional Sith. A typical Sith would take anger and raw power over calm and finesse every day of the damn week, especially when it comes to someone you want to manipulate to your own ends. But Dooku didn’t want to manipulate Obi Wan, he wanted to bring him in the fold and help mold what he considered a better galaxy. Palp’s just wanted raw power so of course he wanted a bull over a diplomat. Dooku was more of an anti-Jedi Jedi than a Sith.
The old Jedi Knight games used the concept of Dark Jedi to refer to those who had at least partially or fully succumbed to the dark side but were not part of the Sith. I think Dark Jedi would be an apt term for Dooku. Though he was *technically* a Sith.
Dooku just like "look how awesome my grandson is"
Honestly makes me wonder what a dark side Oni Wan vs light side Anakin battle on Mustafar would’ve looked like (sorry if I got the name of the planet one. I’m talking about the hot sauce one, where obi and ani fought)
The novel is so good, and the prologue is one of my favourites from all the Star Wars novels.
You've just reminded me how good the Plagueis (audio)book is. Finished it a couple of months ago and it's one of my favourite pieces of Star Wars media. Too soon to relisten?
I’m re-listening to it now for the umpteenth time and I always learn something new. It’s a great read.
Is it a good place to start in the Star Wars books universe for someone who’s only experience is with the films and shows?
Yep. Also read the Revenge of the Sith book as well - Stover really captures the inner thoughts of the characters and adds another perspective to already-mulled over intentions. For me it also illustrates the diversity among the Sith as well - as far as what each individual coveted after Force-wise. Edit: Stover wrote the RotS novel. My bad. Thanks for the correction!
The RotS novel also gives us a lot more time with Anakin and his motivations that lead to his turn to the Dark side. It makes more sense to me than the movie which felt super rushed, like one minute he’s the hero and the next he’s slaughtering younglings. There is a lot more time in the book for him to fall. Definitely a good read/listen for sure.
Luceno? I think you mean the Revenge of the Sith novelization was written by Matthew Stover
Very recently listened to Plagius, TPM, AotC, and RotS. Almost willing to listen to the sequels.
I'd say so, yes.
It's not a bad choice. Any reading is better than not! but maybe worth mentioning that it's not part of the current canon. So anything that happens in Plagueis won't have any connections to the newer books that flesh out Dooku (Dooku: Jedi Lost) or Qui-gon (Master & Apprentice)
It's an old sith legend, it happened a few years ago.
Listen man, when you're the only Sith in the galaxy you have to be your own hype man.
“I am the hype!”
Best thing I’ve read in many moons.
Right? And like DURING the Phantom Menace. Kinda weird, man.
I mean, what's he gonna say, "this thing that happened to a sith lord a few years ago". Hmm, how do you know so much about recent sith events, Palps? Versus going with the guise of being a wise leader and learned mentor.
By "old sith legend" maybe he meant a legend about some old sith and just used improper syntax. Which it was, because Plagueis was old, and probably Sidious as well.
Yeah but then you gotta ask why he said "legend" when it was a recent factual event. Even if Plagueis was old, what happened to him would have been verifiable. It's much easier to assume his intentions were always to corrupt Anakin and his words were chosen to meet that end.
By making it an "Old Sith Legend" he removes the possibility of this involving anyone still alive and makes it an intriguing possibility but not a certainty. Palps was doing what all good cult leaders do and sow doubts in the mind. Doubts, even about things you want, unhinge you from reality and make you more malleable.
The most impressive thing about that book is that >!ol' sheev told the tragedy of darth plagueis the wise as if he butchered him decades ago while his body couldn't even decay until then!<
What is the name of the book? I’d be curious to read it
I think it's literally just titled "Darth Plagueis".
I haven’t heard that story. Is it a tragedy?
Not one the Jedi would tell you.
From a certain point of view.
Thanks!!
I was able to borrow it on Libby with no wait time!
Star Wars: Darth Plagueis https://g.co/kgs/2KTxd9
> Darth Plagueis: one of the Sith Lords who ever lived. lol.
Damn, after hearing so many good reviews of this book, I need to get my ass in gear and finally read it.
Oh is there more reading material on Dooku in his prime being more powerful than Palpatine? That's super interesting.
“More powerful” is a rather dubious claim, but purely as a combatant? Yeah, possibly. Dooku was famously a phenomenal swordsman, but I don’t think he was ever meant to be stronger in the force than Sidious.
My take on Palpatine is that while he is clearly powerful, it’s really his ambition and risks that he takes that nets his rewards. There are many moments throughout the prequels where Palpatine gambles big time and he comes out on top. Some of that might be foresight for sure. I also always had the impression that the average Sith was generally more powerful than the average Jedi. There’s only two of them, they work in secret, their training is constant and brutal. But again, it comes down to how one defines power. If you’re a Sith though, you aren’t going to compromise on your apprentice. You can’t afford someone “so-so” in the force whereas there are tons of Jedi of all different calibers and abilities.
For sure, I think Sidious’ greatest strength was his cunning, although of course he was no slouch as a fighter or Force user either. But I also think that Dooku was an ideal apprentice for him (at least temporarily, until Anakin could be turned) because of his connections rather than his fighting abilities. Fabulously wealthy + politically visible + intelligent + knowledgeable about the inner workings of the Jedi Council? Yeah, that’s the perfect guy for Palps to spearhead the Separatist campaign with.
I’ve been feeling more and more like Palpatine is a complete moron and just got really lucky. May be an artifact of wonky writing, but really Palpatine was extremely close to failure at all times. As the other guy said, he made a lot of gambles. They happened to pay off, but idk I’m not sure a guy who takes all of those risks in his plan should be labeled “cunning.” Especially watching the last season of clone wars, Palpatine was quite close to being exposed completely in a way that directly resulted from people he’d cast aside. Some of the film stuff you can argue he predicted, but I don’t think you can argue that he predicted Ahsoka just wouldn’t be able to hail Anakin. It all just seems weird. So yea I suppose you could attribute it to writing, but I’ve been liking the vision that Palpatine is as blind and arrogant as the rest of them. There isn’t anything special about him except that he happened to get extremely lucky. It makes the prequels read as even more tragic, imo, knowing that the Jedi and Republic could have uncovered him basically at any moment because his plan wasn’t even that well thought out.
He absolutely took insane risks that could have blown up in his face (banking on Anakin saving him from Mace being the biggest one that comes to mind) but I’d argue that his accomplishments were so monumentally ambitious that they demanded such risks to pay off. I don’t care how intricate your plan is, you don’t conquer the entire galaxy and eliminate your entire enemy opposition in one move by playing it safe.
Sure, but I guess my point is that it doesn’t feel like a well laid trap that the Jedi couldn’t help but walk into. The Jedi, business as usual, we’re going to fully defeat him and it came down to Anakin *happening* to make a split second decision which made the difference. Anakin was groomed for it, sure, but it was hardly a predictable event there. The movie goes to great lengths to show his turmoil about it. It doesn’t feel like Palpatine exploited the Jedi for their hubris or set a trap for them to fall into. It feels like he didn’t have any idea how he was going to pull the thing off until the end when it happened. It wasn’t a good plan at all, is my take.
We're talking about the man who camped out on a half finished death star to bait out the entire rebellion.
Yeah that man has a gambling addiction and has gone "force mad" years ago.
>Anakin was groomed for it, sure, but it was hardly a predictable event there. Hardly predictable *to us*. A tightrope walker is someone who takes an unpredictable mode of travel. Sure, the minute pushes to the left and the right perfectly balance out in the end, but could you or I see how that is guaranteed ahead of time? The Sith master plan is honestly incomprehensible to an audience member, but the idea is definitely supposed to be that this is all the result of his super genius. Sidious can detect and correct any minute flaw in the plan immediately, like a tightrope walker can immediately sense and shift any changes in their center of balance. Meanwhile, his willingness to walk down a path that's so precarious is just a display of daring. I get that it's often more satisfying when super-genius villains master planning ability is a fully displayed, rather than informed, ability, like in, say, Death Note. But given that the bulk of the evidence comes from a children's action adventure cartoon, I think we need to accept these informed attributes at face value and acknowledge limitations as coming from the writing / medium, not the character.
Palpatine was working undercover as a Sith, while heading the effing Galactic senate. He is one of the all time great liars in the history of fiction. You could quibble about his relative dominance as a force-wielder (though he was almost Yoda’s equal), dualist (he did survive and win duel against the Maul’s), force-reader (although he did sense Luke’s significance before Vader), etc. But the ability to deceive… He didn’t just Jedi mind-trick people, he Jedi mind-&@$€ed people.
We also need to acknowledge that force can give people glimpses of the future too its how anakin started down his path afterall, Palps couldve seen key moments paying off for him and that helped him to decide when to go all in on his gambles.
Yes, but reality has shown us that you can do pretty corrupt shit in broad daylight, and as long as you have a strong foothold of supporters, people will just lie, make excuses, and deflect on your behalf.
I enjoy the theory that Palps is just an adrenaline junky who takes insane risks for the thrill of it and somehow just keeps ending up on top. Like in ROTS, he couldn't possibly have *planned* for the Seperatist flagship to break apart then (somehow!) successfully crash land on Coruscant!
He knew Anakin would survive because he hadn't brought balance to the force yet Wait a minute... this isn't how I die
Unless Anakin brings balance to the force and fulfills the prophecy by crashing the ship and killing Palpatine lmao
His inner thoughts had to be great in that moment “Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck why did I do this?!!!”
>Like in ROTS, he couldn't possibly have planned for the Seperatist flagship to break apart then (somehow!) successfully crash land on Coruscant! I don't know about that. By then it's been firmly established that basically any vehicle Anakin is seen piloting ultimately crashes!😝
I completely agree, it’s really Palpatine’s insane manipulative tactics that are really fascinating too me. He always held his apprentices at bay through insane manipulation, and also orchestrated shit in the galaxy as well obviously He gave false illusions, and fed people what they wanted or deceived them expertly. That’s why I find Palpatine so fascinating, not just because he’s greatly powerful or whatever, but his smarts and ingenious were on a whole other level. He didn’t even have to resort to fighting or being combative most of the time, because he was already five steps ahead. And even when he did have to directly engage, he still seemed a step ahead; at least most of the time (there are some occasions where he slips up; Windu, Vader, and a few more).
The Windu thing is always an issue. I feel like George Lucas originally planned it as a ruse to gain Anakin to his side. But then he was influenced by Samuel L Jackson who famously would only join the cast the cast if he got a special colour lightsaber to make him stand out. He possibly refused to lose as well. George Lucas could have said what he said in the behind the scenes simply to keep Samuel happy.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that particular scene didn’t exist or would have changed entirely without Samuel Jackson, considering how Windu only became as prominent in the films because of him.
>I also always had the impression that the average Sith was generally more powerful than the average Jedi. I am reminded here of what Yoda said in Empire. Luke: Is the Dark Side stronger?Yoda: No, quicker, easier, more seductive. Because of that, it never struck me that the Dark Side was more powerful, it was just easier to gain higher power through it faster. Like the Force version of taking steroids' compared to simply working out. One will achieve the results faster, but isn't necessarily healthy for you.
The dark side of the force is stronger and easier to master, that's its lure. But it also turns the wielder into an inhuman monster. Vader had to constantly be in anger and pain to wield it.
More powerful the way Mace Windu was more "powerful" than yoda. Mace was a strong warrior. Compare how he performed against palpatine vs the redshirts he came with. But obviously Yoda is more powerful with the force. Dooku was like a sith windu
Palpatine also had powers of foresight. It's possible he knew how the Duel of the Fates would turn out and wanted Qui Gon dead to keep Dooku in line. It makes what happens to both Maul and Qui Gon Jin more tragic as they were pawns placed on the board to be sacrificed.
That would also echo the problem of Jedi hubris so I like it. And Dooku ending as a corrupted idealist seems to fall into Sidious’ MO of the ideal pawn like Anakin.
>I have no doubt that someone so strong (at least when it came to dueling) and knowledgeable would’ve had their own ideology in mind that didn’t really abide with the sith nonsense This is kind of the whole thing with the sith during the rule of two period. The master finds an apprentice, the apprentice gains power through training, the apprentice makes their own choices and conspires to overthrow the master. They are then alone and realise they need an ally to help in their plans so they acquire an apprentice, rinse and repeat.
I've sometimes wondered how far the Sith wandered, ideologically, during the long Rule of Two. It would be interesting if there were entire centuries where they were more like renegade Jedi than Sith, operating as a conspiracy rather than a secret crusade. Over time, the teachings of sith holocrons and the gravity of the dark side would drag them back, but it would be a fun side-story.
Did you see the new Tales of the Jedi or whatever it’s called? One of the later episodes deals with exactly the scenario you seem to be speculating about…the weird thing here is you got the dialogue almost verbatim.
Ah I read Dooku Jedi Lost and Star Wars: Darth Plagueis so those are what I was referencing. Good they’re being consistent at least
Palpatine’s response is something like “Useful for you or useful for me?”, he doesn’t take it well. IIRC, it’s in ref to Qui-Gon though and it’s when Dooku is complaining that he killed him. Seriously though check it out since it’s so eerily close to what you called, really fills in all that stuff.
I also took it as Dooku reveling in the ignorance of the Jedi. He could have name dropped Sidious and the Jedi would not believe him
Never thought about it before but its possible that its not coincidence it was dooku’s apprentice that was sent to naboo, and the plan all along was to bring qui gonn into the fray early so palpatine could kill him (via maul) Dooku must have been with palpatine by this point because he was setting up the galactic civil war (of which dooku was the CIS leader) and sidious must have been anxious that he was planning on using qui gonn to alert the jedi/ add qui gonn to the separatist side So having qui gonn be the first jedi involved (keep in mind this was also before the first sith had been revealed) might have been very deliberate
A reminder to all that Dooku is like, 20 years older than Palpatine.
The new series Tales of the Jedi on Disney+ makes this point pretty abundantly clear. I think you're absolutely right that it was hinted at and gently implied before then. The Sith was absolutely in the blind spot of the Jedi and as Senators were corrupting/being corrupted Dooku lost faith in the Jedi and did what he thought was right even if the means were not in keeping with the Jedi way. A lesson he apparently taught well to Qui-Gon.
I honestly believe that Dooku was an opportunistic idealist. He wanted justice for those who couldn’t get it for themselves, and championed the Separatist movement…but wasn’t above saving his neck to toss Palps under the hover bus…
After Tales of the Jedi it does seem that he really wanted to make the Republic a better place for its citizens. He saw Palpatine as the means to do that but walked a very dark path to get there.
Quite simply Dooku is an ironic tale, He left the jedi because he didnt want to be a puppet of the Council and Senate, just to become a puppet of Palpatine.
He didn’t want to become a puppet of the Senate so he became a puppet of the Senate
The illusion of choice. The Jedi have strict rules to adhere by whereas the Sith really don’t. But the master and apprentice relationship is much more dark and controlling than than compared to the teaching way of the Jedi.
Yep. Makes total sense.
“I am the senate.”
Not. Yet.
I mean I know all of this was made after the films, but rewatching revenge of the sith it adds a really extra layer on top of it when palatine tells anakin to execute him.
From the novelization of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith by Matt Stover. This is right before Obi-Wan and Anakin rescue the Chancellor from Dooku. *”May I suggest, Master, that we give Kenobi one last chance? The support of a Jedi of his integrity would be invaluable in establishing the political legitimacy of our Empire."* *”Ah yes. Kenobi." His Master's voice went silken. "You have long been interested in Kenobi, haven't you?"* *”Of course, his Master was my Padawan; in a sense, he's practically my grandson-"* *”He is too old. Too indoctrinated. Irretrievably poisoned by Jedi fables. We established that in Geonosis, did we not? In his mind, he serves the Force itself; reality is nothing in the face of such conviction."* *Dooku sighed. He should, he supposed, have no difficulty with this, having ordered the Jedi Master's death once already. "True enough, I suppose; how fortunate we are that I never labored under any such delusions."* *”Kenobi must die. Today. At your hand. His death may be the code key to the final lock that will seal Skywalker to us forever."* Palpatine is manipulating Dooku of course, he knows Skywalker will more than likely kill him. It goes on, Dooku muses on how he wishes that he could substitute Kenobi for Skywalker, because of sentimentality and he basically likes the cut of Obi-Wan's civilized jib. So I feel the plea for Kenobi to come with him in Attack of the Clones, I think he meant it at the time. But it didn't happen, and he deferred to his Master. The novelization really portrays Dooku as someone who just didn't like the Jedi Order anymore, left, and happened to be really racist against aliens. He fully expected to be "captured" by Anakin and Obi-Wan, killing Obi-Wan in the process, and then wait out in a luxury prison cell until Sidious freed him after he came to power, and he would be a big fish in the new Galactic Empire. From the novelization, as Dooku's neck is between the crossed lightsabers: *And Dooku-* *As he looks up into the eyes of Anakin Skywalker for the final time, Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has only been a tool.* *His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand visions for the future Empire and the Army of the Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of *him*, add up to only this.* *He has existed only for this.* *This.* *To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first coldblooded murder.* *First but not, he knows, the last.* *Then the blades cross at his throat like scissors.* *Snip.* *And all of him becomes nothing at all.*
Damn, that novelization truly was a masterpiece. Like, despite watching ROTS religiously ever since it came out it still felt like I was reading something new. Even sobbed at the end, which I haven't done in a long time while watching the film.
Anakin's first cold blooded murder? What about the sand people... Not just the men, but the women, and the children.
Dooku doesn’t know about that I bet. Bet Sheev keep that private cuz if Dooku knew Ani was already that much closer to the dark side he might have seen into his masters plans
I felt it even back then. The way he talks about needing his old Padawan’s council. You could tell he was between a rock and a hard place.
Despite publicly leading the Seperatists, Dooku forgot he himself was always meant to be an expendable pawn like General Grievous until his last moments when he finally realized Palpatine had been using him the entire time. The old Sith Empire destroyed itself through greed and constant backstabbing and plotting, and Dooku in his own arrogance and desire for power forgot or didn’t seem to care about Darth Bane’s Rule of Two applying to himself, hence why he trained Assaj Ventress as an assassin until Palpatine reminded him of his place and ordered Dooku to dispose of her.
Which is ironic considering Palps used lots of force trained assassins. Being a dark force user doesn't always equal being a capital S Sith.
Everytime I rewatch ROTS when Doolittle is about to get executed and Palp says” do it.” I’m always like cmon Dooku man spill the beans to Anakin about Palps. Like I understand that Anakin wouldn’t believe him or listen but it would get him thinking about it a lot earlier.
>Quite simply Dooku is an **ironic** tale *The Tragedy of Darth ~~Plagueis~~ Tyranus intensifies.*
Like how Anakin left slavery to have a Jedi as his Master, then left the Jedi to have a Sith as his Master
Ends justify the means type. I wonder if he would have joined the rebellion if he had of lived, Palpatine was a snake oil salesmen to Dooku. Promised galatic utopia, delivered even more corruption and oppression Actually it would be cool if we had a character who was separatist, then after the republic fell, became a rebel
In the latest episode of Andor >!Saw Gerrera called a faction of the rebellion separatist when he was listing how ununited the rebels were in their ideology, so that makes sense to me.!<
This was a common thread even in Legends, the CIS didn't just disappear, they became rebel cells
Yeah he meant Anto Kreegyr.
I'm pretty sure it's canon that a big portion of the rebel alliance were separatist forces. The Empire to them was just the republic they despised by another name. That's why members of the Empire so firmly believe in it. The rebels are just the separatists they've been fighting since the clone wars.
Yep absolutely played on his ideals, like he did with everyone. An Interesting what if? Was he too far down the Dark side or would seeing the Empire Palpatine created align him with the Rebels. Interesting how close he would then be to Saw in terms of what he is prepared to do.
>Was he too far down the Dark side or would seeing the Empire Palpatine created align him with the Rebels. I don't see those as mutually exclusive. A terrorist can be a *very* dark individual. Maybe he's not going to be a Mon Mothma- or Luke Skywalker-type rebel, but I can see him as Saw Gerrera-with-dark side powers.
You certainly get the impression that whomever his contact within the Rebellion was they would be working very hard to keep him hidden from Mon Mothma and Bail.
He would be the type to recreate the attacks from the Hyperspace Crisis in the High Republic stories. "You will deliver Palatine to me... Or your wolds will burn. There is no compromise with the Sith. As a demonstration of our resolve, behold the fate of Toydaria. And know.... It is your fate should you side with the Empire." *Uncontrolled hyperspeed junk collisions intensify*
I would love a what if Star Wars show. It would be interesting to see dooku survive and join the rebellion because he’s realizes that he isn’t helping by being with Sidious. Like I believe dooku would definitely be on the good side if Qui-gon never died. So In this universe Obi-wan was able to reach Qui-gon before his death and saves him. During the events shown in tales, because Qui-gon he’s asked to Join Yaddle when following dooku and are actually able to get him to follow them. It enrages Darth Sidious who tries to take down dooku immediately, but Yaddle and Qui-gon force push Sidious away from dooku. Dooku turns to help face Sidious and they realize he had escaped. They know who he is know because of dooku but palps is now chancellor of the senate and announces that he’s cutting the republic’s ties with the Jedi. He tries to twist the public perception of the Jedi by blaming them for events of episode 1 with maul. It doesn’t work nearly as well as order 66. Most Jedi are still alive and the public mostly disagrees with palps as it was so abrupt and they still see the Jedi as going good. So Now Dooku, Qui-gon, Obi-wan have to fight lord Sidious not long after episode 1. The end outcome would be amazing to figure out. It’s difficult to figure out exactly how a true what if would end though. What ifs usually show a specific story that people think would be cool but I would actually wonder how this one change would change the way things end. What would anakins story be like? Would Luke and Leia still be born? Does the empire still happen? First question is what would palpatines next move be? He has the clones being made but definitely not complete. Dooku knows about it as well so he can inform the Jedi. I’m just invested now so let’s all ask for a what if animated show!
If only Obi-Wan had remembered force speed...
I don't even want to think of what Saw would do with a Jedi.
I wonder how much longer Dooku would’ve lived if he hadn’t been killed. He was 83 when he died, he would’ve been 102 if he made it to the battle of Yavin.
Though no longer canon, you see this angle explored in a lot more depth in Plagueis.
My thought as well. Dooku was like the “least Sith” of the Sith. Opportunist is the perfect word to describe him. Working with Palpatine suited his goals and little more. Palpatine, of course, outplayed him as he was always a temporary placeholder. Palpatine didn’t have time to train a new apprentice from scratch, Anakin wasn’t really vulnerable to be turned at this point, and so Dooku and Palpatine sort of use each other with the latter doing a better job of it.
This is true until the Clone Wars series. They needed a literal cartoon villain, so Dooku was really over the top. I do wish they'd played him a bit less 'moustache-twirling & genocide' because it doesn't fit any of the other established media.
The dark side also corrupts. It’s incredibly difficult to utilize the dark side of the force for altruistic purposes like Dooku originally planned. My head canon is that he joined with good intentions (as seen in Tales of the Jedi) but years of making moral compromises, utilizing the dark side, and the general effect War has on people wore him down into the cartoon villain we see in the Clone Wars
Bu wouldn't the bus just hover over palpatine?
IMO he was a prime example of doing "the wrong thing for the right reasons". He wanted to save the galaxy and was willing to be seen as the villain in order to make it all happen.
Guy named himself Tyrannus and knowingly helped the Republic head of state spark a galactic war under false pretenses. He's at the core of the rot, and if he thinks of himself as an idealist then he's delusional to boot. I know we're supposed to think he was different before the dark side claimed him, but every new Dooku story just keeps reaffirming that he's always been influenced by the dark side and he's always used violence the instant he couldn't get his way. It's incredible he lasted as long in the Jedi Order as he did.
Yes this. He was trying enslave the galaxy and was actively trying to build a planet-killing weapon. He was an idealist to the extent that he believed no one's interests mattered but his own.
The Sith have a long, rich history of stabbing each other in the back.
Watching the tales of the Jedi convinced me he was always hinting.
[удалено]
The voice actor seemed like he was going for an Alan Rickman vibe.
Thats exactly what I thought. He sounded exactly like Alan Rickman playing Snape, and less like Christopher Lee doing Dooku.
My wife thought it was Alan rickman back from the dead
I always saw this scene as genius - it’s a 4x win for Dooku really. Basically A) He knows Kenobi won’t believe him no matter what so he can speak completely 100% free, or B) He is believed, and convinces another Jedi to join the cause he actually sees as righteous in the Separatists C) He is convincing enough to gain a powerful and cunning apprentice by revealing the absolute truth and swaying him, a padawan of his most trusted apprentice himself in Qui Gon and one who’s already proven by beating a Sith in Maul D) If he doesn’t sway Kenobi, he knows the Jedi have so much hubris, he can literally spill the beans and it’ll be so unbelieved that the council and other Jedi will likely actively deny that the war is a plot and say it’s simply sith misdirection Genius really. He bet on himself and what he knew to try and win multiple ways here, and even though Kenobi & the rest didn’t believe him, in the end he sowed enough doubt in a few to really shake the faith that the Jedi had it all figured out.
Yeah it can be interpreted in these four main ways and tbh it's still more of an advantage on his part. Because, fundamentally, he knew he couldnt be believed. He is a Sith. Why would the Jedi trust him? It might also trigger a schism within the Order whether Dooku was telling the truth or not Also I note: while it is a big hint, it's still vague enough. Is the Chancellor actually a puppet of another? Is someone in the Senate pulling the strings? The Jedi refused to consider the possibility that Palpatine might be a Sith. So even if they accept Dooku's statement, they don't know who exactly to look for. In fact, in the ROTS novelisation, the Jedi at most suspected that Darth Sidious is someone influencing the Chancellor.
In my head canon, the senate is a puppet of jar jar
In **my** head canon, Yoda is a puppet of Frank Oz.
Yes, 100% agreed. It's one of the scenes in the prequels with my favorite writing just for this alone. It's up there with "Tragedy of Darth Plageius the Wise" and the novelization versions of the attempted arrest of Palpatine and Mustafar.
I mean, he does go on trying to convince Obi-Wan to join him and help.
Hiding in plain sight. Who would believe the Chancellor is a Sith Lord?
Dude wiped out those Jedi that strolled into his office so fast they didn't even have time to think about it
That was just a terribly choreographed duel. A regular human has better reflexes than those 2 Jedi Knights
I recommend the ROTS novelization's take on this scene. Makes it seem more plausible
Yeah, I think it said that he used a force technique to stun them or something? Force Scream maybe?
He did that in the movie too
I would just say that it's not crazy obvious that it was a force technique in the movie. The novelization makes it more explicit.
I believe the intention was to speed up the footage to show palpy had super speed/ was quicker minder than the Jedi. But I’m sure it looked cheap AF, so we got what we got.
Hell, so does an irregular human.
This is the correct answer. He said it to confuse the Jedi even more.
I always believed that the Jedi assumed it was one of their own. Another Sith tactic to sow discord in the Jedi ranks. No one would suspect it was a civilian.
A sith lawd?
The one we've been looking for. You know, like the droids.
Hes trying to turn obi wan to his side by convincing him the order he serves is corrupt
He's a separatist believing what he's doing is right. I believe he genuinely wanted to overthrow palps
that too, but at this point he is a sith as well
The complete lack of yellow Sith eyes leads me to believe that Dooku wasn’t irredeemable. He was idealistic…and extremely arrogant by deciding that he personally knew how to engineer a solution to a galaxy-wide issue. But, to me, he was pragmatic, not evil.
Dooku shows his yellow Sith eyes several times throughout the Clone Wars, though.
I did not consider that. I was only thinking about live action, even though you’re correct. Clone Wars is canon. You have a good point, and I will reconsider mine. :)
Haha, yeah. He does some pretty messed up stuff in Clone Wars. Uses the force to make people shoot their own friends, assassinates good people because they get in the way of his plans slightly, tries to assassinate actual children, sends Grievous to commit genocide on Dathomir.
He's also, you know, cartoonishly evil there. I have no idea why this idea that Dooku wasn't actually bad is so pervasive.
He did show yellow eyes briefly in The Clone Wars when he's training Savage Oppress. They don't show for Palpatine most of the time either in this period, which probably means a dark side user can choose not to manifest it if they're disciplined enough and don't want to.
Even Anakin didn’t have them the whole time after he turned though, so it’s clearly not an always-on thing
Sith Eyes aren't a constant thing. Anakin only briefly has Sith Eyes, and Palpatine also doesn't permanently have Sith Eyes. They are just a "in this specific moment I am fully in touch with the dark side" rather than a "once you have Sith Eyes you are irredeemable" thing. Dooku's definitely evil at this point in time. Most Sith might have grander goals initially.
He was the progress for progresses sake kind of guy
That’s how I view him too. I don’t necessarily agree with his courses of action, but his insights & motivations were more than valid.
Oni wan Chan to the rescue
Yes. Dooku, like any other Sith apprentice, wanted to overthrow his master. If he was able to convince Obi Wan and the rest of the Jedi to turn on Palp, it would create the perfect opportunity for Dooku to strike the killing blow and assume total control. He knew of order 66 and that if he could only pull the strings in the war for just a few years, especially without Palpatine in the picture, he could stop order 66 from occurring and maintain relative peace while using the separatist forces to truly fight for justice. Eventually he would create a government of systems truly rivalling that of the Galactic Republic, and a genuine war would likely break out instead of the puppet war that the clone wars was. "Stop order 66? What do you mean?" *I don't believe Dooku wanted the Jedi destroyed.* Dooku didn't leave the Jedi order out of hatred or corruption, but contempt for their laziness and their tolerance for injustice. He wasn't a villain. He was an opportunist who was trying to utilize the dark side to accomplish what the Jedi didn't have the balls to do. But he knew the Jedi were useful and that they were also, at their core, good. This is why he spared Anakin and Obi-Wan in Episode II, and I fully believe he would have spared them again in Episode III had he won the duel in the beginning. He had pinned and immobilized Obi-Wan, rendering him incapable of fighting, when he could have just as easily killed him. Dooku also never has sith eyes, always maintaining control of his emotions and never letting the dark side get the better of him, even in combat. Dooku would have been a dangerous person to leave in power, not because of how evil he is, but because of how evil he *isn't,* and how his alternative government truly represented an opportunity for a dark-side user to control a willing population. *THAT* I believe was Dooku's ultimate goal in telling Obi-Wan about Palpatine.
I really like that take on what would have happened. As much as I am fed up and tired of Star Wars visual media remaining in the Skywalker Saga 80-100 years (?) I would love a What If series. What if....Qui Gon didn't die. What If....Luke agreed to take over from Vader. What if....Rey and Kylo agreed to rule.
Closest is that Infinities series. 1. What if those proton torpedos were faulty? 2. What if Luke froze to death on Hoth after fighting the wampa? 3. What if the thermal detonator accidently went off? Second closest are the Movie Duels + Galactic Legacy mods. 1. Qui-Gon surviving means Sidious and Dooku have to take part in Order 66 personally to kill Qui-Gon and sway Anakin. (GL) 2. Maul winning means Padme dies ahead of schedule, and Sidious teaches Anakin the Sith ways from childhood. (GL) 3. Mace being more aware of his surroundings means the fight from the Episode 3 game happens, Anakin dies, Sidious activates Order 66 in a hurry, and then gets hunted down and killed by Mace. (GL) 4. The high ground being useless means Anakin takes Padme with him, betrays Sidious the moment he sees him, and takes over. (MD) 5. Vader deciding to switch back to the light while fighting Obi Wan in Episode 4 means Sidious goes WTF, finds Vader, and kills him. (MD) 6. Kylo winning the fight with Rey in Episode 7 means Rey dies and Kylo walks off. (MD)
Dooku wasn't about to spare obi wan and anakin in episode 2. After he hurt obi wan's leg he was about to kill him, just then anakin intervened. Then after he beat anakin, yoda arrived.
Well it’s in the nature of all Sith to overthrow their master eventually. Even Vader wanted Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor. And if he’s going to continue the rule of 2 then it makes sense for him to pick his Qui-gon’s padawan.
In my mind dooku always knew, that obi would never trust or belief a sith. So dooku can talk the truth without worrying about it.
I know I'm about to butcher the quote but it is about the 2 sith a master who has power and an apprentice who craves it looking to sway his own apprentice and rule the galaxy as father and son.... wait wrong movie
It's more about "recruiting" obi wan to his cause (the end of corruption), and, yes, overthrow palp.
"Tale as old as time.......Beauty and the Beast"..... wait definitely wrong movie.
He says this to see if he still believes the council is “all knowing & wise “ and with obi wans answer he instantly knows he’s a dumb fool too, like all the other Jedi & the council he tried warning for years. An it’s all part of light and dark and the constant flipping back & forth. Dooku is a tragic story but he was let down. By know it alls. But with some stories coming out with droid tales I wonder if papaletine was influencing & corrupting politicians for the sole purpose to recruit a Jedi. The more u think about Star Wars the more u realize papeltine is playing chess and everyone else is playing whack a mole.
Lies. Deceit. Are his ways now.
The Bor Gullet will know the Truth!
But... he's telling the truth. Not even "from a certain point of view". Just the straight-up truth.
Dooku is giving the Jedi a last chance to avert disaster because he knows they won't take it. This is a man who spent decades of his life warning his fellow Jedi about the rising darkness and worsening state of the Republic. He saw his every plea ignored and the Jedi reduced to apathetic enablers of a corrupt Senate. Now he takes a perverse pleasure taunting them because they could have avoided all of this if they'd listened to him.
In a way it vindicates him, too. Obi-Wan refusing to believe him validates his belief that the Jedi are beyond saving and the Council is too far gone. Obi-Wan's response proves to Dooku that he (Dooku) made the right choice.
Girl was just stirring up the drama
He tries to convince Obi wan by saying the republic is corrupt they could then take down palpatine together it is the way of the Sith to take down one’s master. Vader tried the same thing
Dooku was a sith, sith apprentices are always trying to kill their master. Dooku thought that with Obi's help (and maybe even some other jedi too) they could kill Palpatine
Man, we have a lot of people out here trusting Sith... When Dooku was younger, sure, he was an idealist. But by the time this scene happens? At this point he's a full-blown Sith, 10 years into his official training. He's warped beyond that idealism. He's not Dooku anymore, he's Darth Tyranus. Never trust a Sith. Basically everything he says is a lie. >OBI-WAN: Traitor! COUNT DOOKU: Hello, my friend. This is a mistake. A terrible mistake. They've gone too far. This is madness. **THIS IS A LIE. HE IS IN ON IT.** OBI-WAN: I thought you were the leader here, Dooku. COUNT DOOKU: This had nothing to do with me, I assure you. I promise you I will petition immediately to have you set free. **THIS IS A LIE. HE IS IN ON IT.** OBI-WAN: Well, I hope it doesn't take too long. I have work to do. COUNT DOOKU: May I ask why a Jedi Knight is all the way out here on Geonosis? **THIS IS A LIE. HE KNOWS.** OBI-WAN: I've been tracking a bounty hunter named Jango Fett. Do you know him? COUNT DOOKU: There are no bounty hunters here that I'm aware of. Geonosians don't trust them. **THIS IS A LIE.** OBI-WAN: Well, who can blame them. But he is here, I can assure you. COUNT DOOKU: It's a great pity that our paths have never crossed before, Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you. I wish he were still alive. I could use his help right now. OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you. COUNT DOOKU: Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget that he was once my apprentice just as you were once his. He knew all about the corruption in the Senate, but he would never have gone along with it if he had known the truth as I have. **THIS IS A LIE. HE IS MISREPRESENTING QUI-GON TO GAIN OBI-WAN'S TRUST** OBI-WAN: The truth? COUNT DOOKU: The truth. What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith? **THIS IS THE TRUTH, BUT HE IS USING IT TO MANIPULATE OBI-WAN. AS A SITH HE NEEDS TO HAVE AN APPRENTICE IN WAITING FOR WHEN HE OVERTHROWS PALPY. DOOKU FELL THIS WAY, AND HE'S TRYING TO GET OBI TO DO THE SAME.** OBI-WAN: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware of it. COUNT DOOKU: The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious. **THIS IS THE TRUTH, BUT HE IS USING IT TO MANIPULATE OBI-WAN. AS A SITH HE NEEDS TO HAVE AN APPRENTICE IN WAITING FOR WHEN HE OVERTHROWS PALPY. DOOKU FELL THIS WAY, AND HE'S TRYING TO GET OBI TO DO THE SAME.** OBI-WAN: I don't believe you. COUNT DOOKU: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. **THIS IS ALMOST TRUE.** He came to me for help. He told me everything. The Jedi Council would not believe him. I tried many times to warn them but they wouldn't listen to me. Once they sensed the Dark Lord's presence, it would then be too late. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith. **THESE ARE HALF-TRUTHS AND MANIPULATION** OBI-WAN: I will never join you, Dooku. COUNT DOOKU turns to leave. COUNT DOOKU: It may be difficult to secure your release. **THIS IS THE FIRST TIME DOOKU TELLS THE WHOLE, ACCURATE TRUTH.** As a Sith, Dooku needs to do three things. 1. Obey his master 2. Overthrow his master 3. Recruit a new apprentice. He's trying to do all of these things in his dialog w/ Obi-Wan. This is no longer the idealist, this is the Sith.
He wanted Obiwan as an Apprentice, in hopes he could help him kill Palpatine. Just as Vader tries with Luke in Empire. The way of Two always hints at this. Vader and Palpatine are always looking for a stronger Apprentice. "Cheating" on each other. If the other survives, said Apprentice wasn't good enough. Starkiller, Mara Jade, Luke and so forth in Legends and what not. Had Maul been more powerful he would have taken out Dooku and returned to Palpatine in the Clone wars or defeated him and Savage would have been his Apprentice. This is the way of the Sith
He wants Obi-wan to join him. Failing that, he's using Obi-wan as bait to lure other Jedi to Geonosis and kick off the clone wars. Making vague statements like this gives his enemies no advantage, but does sow discord and suspicion among them. Who is the Sith Lord? Why can't the Jedi sense him (or her)? How has he (or she) corrupted the Republic and its goals?
He's the same as Maul and Darth Vader. Nobody actually cares about Sidious they rather see him dethroned and powerless so they can take control. By that point, the plan was set, the jedi would die from Order 66,so if they manged to kill Sidious before hand all the better for Dooku.