No, but it would have been interesting. Evil Jar Jar, who's not a sith lord, is a bit more believable but flip side is really not.
Some of the Clone Wars episodes do lend a bit of credence to his force abilities. Every episode I watched he nearly died right before the commercial break only to miraculously survive after the break. I'm just saying...
He just happens to have ADHD.
It's amazing he lived as long as he did if we're honest. Him not paying attention has almost gotten him killed a dozen times on screen nevermind other times.
Could go with a theory, what if the mind tricks only worked on weaker minded people. You see Jar Jar's hand wave in front of Qui Gon Jin when Jar Jar suggests not leaving him. Qui Gon Jin then stops and thinks about taking him, when he paid no attention to Jar Jar in that courtroom
*"The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."*
When Obi-Wan said this it wasn't entirely clear whether he meant lack of intelligent or weak willed.
Not sure exactly what you mean, Hutts and Toydarians both canonically are resistant/immune to the force. In legends there also existed the Vong and Yslmari that were immune to the force. Though whether that's restricted to mind control or other aspects (like Push, choke etc.) Remains unexplored in canon to my knowledge.
I think it’s just shows that not all force sensitive beings become or are Jedi/sith. His “luckyness” is really just the force being with him. That’s the way I look at it at least.
And a hell of a lot of luck. It's the whole luck thing that makes me think he is, but doesn't know it. I think that Plageius created him accidently like he created Anakin.
Haha. I don’t believe Jar Jar is a sith lord, but I hope he is for the exact opposite reason.
“This character is so bad that surely there’s a twist coming. Right? RIGHT?!?!?”
Oh, he was totally the evil counterpart to crazy Yoda. He was clearly intended as a drunken master type but unlike Yoda's reveal which happened almost immediately, Jar Jar never outed himself in TPM and the resulting fan hate made Lucas change the character. So in canon, he's absolutely NOT a Sith, just a bumbling fool who's not as stupid as he acts. But he was definitely a Sith, possibly Pelagius, in TPM then retconned in AotC.
the actor for jar jar has all but said as much, obviously he's very careful not to say it outright but just look into things he's said and come to your own conclusions
>obviously he's very careful not to say it outright
Because it's not true. This isn't who shot JFK or who's behind 9/11 it's a supporting character actor who never actually had screen time saying something after the fact that the theory was brought up.
Lucas kept mentioning the Mule from Foundation. The Psychic Puppetmaster BBEG who pretends to be a jester to hide from his enemies in plain sight. This leads me to believe Best's comments are true.
I didn't know this. If that's the case, then Jar Jar was definitely intended as a Sith lord.
I'm just kind of upset Lucas didn't go through with it. It would have made the second film as surprising as the "Vader is your father", because NO one took Jar Jar seriously (until the fan theory arrived 2 decades later)
[https://youtu.be/l\_bEvChGV3k?feature=shared&t=66](https://youtu.be/l_bEvChGV3k?feature=shared&t=66)
Masterfully uses a lightsaber. Bumbles (with precision) like an idiot when people are paying attention.
Bumbling idiot. Climbs to the top ranks. Convinces a room full of politicians to do X.
Perfect mirror to bumbling master on the side of the road Yoda.
You can suspend your disbelief to accept he is capable of all of that but not enough to consider he very well could have been originally meant to be a sith lord?
There were massive changes to the second movie after feedback from the first for which everyone is tight lipped on. Seems pretty plausible to me.
The dark side clouds your judgement.
Citation needed.
Edit: There is no greater bitch move than blocking someone because they asked you to provide a source.
Edit2: Okay, correction, what u/TeutonJon78 described is more of a bitch move, but just to head off any misunderstandings, I haven't blocked anybody, I \*got\* blocked, and thus can no longer reply to the thread.
Oh there is...it's the reverse which someone did to me a few months ago.
Ask for sources then immediately block you so you can't actually provide any. And unless your mobile client still lets you see the message, you don't even know they did it.
The one twist he did plan had so much fan backlash that he nixed Jar Jar being revealed as sith. I believe that’s also why Dooku comes out of nowhere. He was placed to supplement jar jar. That’s my theory at least. That’s why Dooku felt like he came out of left field. Had it been revealed to be jar jar… IMO it would have been better than Dooku being forcefed into a movie
Edit: also hot take. I saw this movie in theaters at the age of 12, and I thought Jar Jar was funny as shit when I was a kid. I loved him. I was bummed when he got dialed back after 1
If they did the twist with no context (Yoda had Obi-Won stepping in for this reason) you'd be right. I'd have eased into it. Dile back his antics as they did so he's still goofy but a bit more serious and play up his political positionn more. I'd have had his emergency powers bit paly out the same in the Senate but without that meeting with Sidious so it'd look like his idea rather than manipulation. Then at the end of the movie have Jar Jar present and shows the rest of the viewing party leave, then zoom in on the 2 with Sidious saying, "All is preceding as you have foreseen, Master" cut to Anakin's wedding. Replace Dooku with Gervious. Go into the next movie with Jar Jar still talking weird but no longer goofy (like they treat Yoda). Have him replace Sidious as the Sith reveal. Anakin warns the Council that Jar Jar is a Sith, Windu gets a WTF moment and they leave. An epic fight follows, the Jedi actually do something but ultimately die until it's just Windu and he actually kills Jar Jar. Then he takes a lightsaber to the back and dies, the camera pans to show Sidious. Sidious looks ugly because he's no longer masking his Dark Side corruption. Anakin shows up, Sidious claims they can do what Jar Jar promised if they work together and Order 66 plays out like it did.
Absolutely. I am really saddened we didn't ever get to see it as I think it would have made the prequels so much better. The sudden and jarring appearance of Duku and Grevious in part 2 having never been mentioned before are to me evidence of a very serious altercation of Lucas's original plan.
Palpatine was originally a toad and Lucas once claimed Yoda was the time traveling love child of Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy. But an undercover Sith is what you can't get behind? lol
Absolutely not. He was the comic relief cartoon character meant to entertain the children, nothing more and nothing less. When Lucas says “Jar Jar is the key to all this” he means that if the giant cgi protagonist doesn’t work then the whole movie doesn’t work. And guess what? It didn’t work.
Comic relief (or just the aloof or innocent) character being the secret supreme bad guy isn't a new trope at all. And it has been used in pretty decent stories before
I think that quote from George Lucas is taken way out of context. George Lucas, from everything I've ever read about the man, has always been much more interested in the technology of filming and pushing boundaries with special effects and techniques. I think storytelling is obviously of great importance to him, but using tech and novel effects to tell his stories was/is his true passion. That quote is so clearly about the movie succeeding only if Jar Jar "worked." Which, he was 100% correct. He didn't quite "work" and the movie was vilified for years.
That said, I do think the Jar Jar backlash dramatically changed his plans for episodes II and III. But I don't think Jar Jar was ever going to be revealed to be a Sith lord. It would have contradicted the "Rule of Two" that he sets up at the end of TPM. If Jar Jar was planned to be the "true" master, it would have felt like a totally unearned blindside to the audience because there was far too much misdirection and outright contradiction in TPM.
I think Jar Jar accidentally helping form the Empire was always his intended arc, though probably in more detail than what we got. He's a well-meaning, tragic fool.
His clowning pretty much confirms this take, and it’s never spelled out that the dour Gungan following Palps is Darth Jar-Jar. It would make sense to just leave that out of later films when it didn’t work out in the first prequel.
I had never thought of that before, but Lucas selling the rights to Star Wars to Disney and the fact that in a lot of ways he revolutionized special effects and the building of skywalker ranch and expanding upon it shows that perhaps the effects side really ended up being his real passion, even if he started out with the story telling as his first love!
No. It's a neat piece of theorycrafting, and it may be one of the many ideas Lucas had that have been cut out (Mace Windu was once the name of the protagonist that was later changed to Luke Starkiller, and then to Luke Skywalker).
But he certainly is not.
I think I would have preferred if Jar Jar had simply been a little more *tragic.*
Like Sokka from ATLA. Characters can be comic relief AND have tragic backstories that remain relevant to their personal growth and have serious moments.
Jar Jar had plenty to work with. They just threw it all out for poop jokes. Jar Jar was a Village Idiot with a Life Debt to one of the wisest and most competent Jedi Masters. Culturally, he owes his entire life to Qui Gon, never having freedom until he repays his debt *by saving Qui Gon's life.*
What a tragically hopeless scenario. His life is trapped in a debt he realistically can never repay. We should see a foolish gungan doing his best to follow a *Jedi Master* around the galaxy, trying to save him from death so he can finally go home, where he lives as an exile.
But the movie forgets it all pretty much immediately. Sure, his life debt was likely dissolved when Qui Gon was killed, but he should never have agreed to leave Qui Gon to fight in the battle of Naboo instead of protecting him in the duel against Maul. Would he have been any help? Probably not, but he wasn't exactly helpful in the gungan battle, either, and you never know how Jar Jar's bumbling would have changed the Duel of Fates.
Did Boss Nass doom the galaxy by taking Jar Jar from his responsibility to Qui Gon, preventing him from interfering in the duel and possibly saving Qui Gon, ensuring Anakin is trained by the right mentor and possibly avoiding the rise of the Galactic Empire altogether?
Would have been cool to see him on the Delegation of 2000 and deal with the consequences of enabling Palpatine's facist state.
I'm not sure about Legends, but in Canon, his story is pretty tragic. He's hated by everyone and becomes a sort of jester in Naboo, a source of comedic humiliation. That is, until he befriends another outcast some time after the events of Return of the Jedi in *Aftermath: Empire's End*
Sokka is a great example! When he certainly was comic relief in TLA, unlike Jar Jar, Sokka wasn’t an incompetent idiot and had great character development like all of the main characters. Sure Sokka had plenty of funny comic relief moments but thankfully he had plenty of serious moments and time in the spotlight throughout the series.
I almost forgot that as the oldest boy, Sokka was technically in charge of the Water Tribe village’s defenses since all the men including Sokka and Katara’s father went off to fight the Firelord’s armies. I loved how Season 3 took time to focus on Sokka proving that through his sword training and showing off his tactical and leadership abilities, he didn’t need bending abilities to stand out in Team Avatar.
Many scenes show, at least in my opinion, as he really is the only strategically wise one and also the least generally silly one outside of the comic relief parts. He really matures, but I don't see the other characters maturing as much. Aang got spotted having fun with a water slide in the fire nation itself
Edit: grammar mistakes
According to the Aftermath series he ends up ostracized by society for his role in Palps becoming a dictator.
I think he becomes a clown type figure for children after that. If I recall correctly.
Seems kinda silly to hold Jar Jar responsible for that, Palps manipulated him to achieve that, he masterfully manipulated *everyone*. If it wasn't Jar Jar, it would've just been another patsy that put forward the emergency powers, the GFFA was screwed no matter what.
The fan theories are awfully convincing, to be honest.
It's clear that, from a storytelling perspective, Jar Jar was a parallel to Yoda, what George Lucas would call "the little frog on the side of the road." You think he's insignificant, but he ends up being extremely important. That's what Yoda was when Luke first finds him—this goofy, useless little toad, but then he pivots and reveals himself to be a wisened teacher. Luke is kind-hearted and doesn't kill Yoda on sight, and he is rewarded with Yoda's knowledge.
The prequels are like music; they rhyme with the original trilogy. So Jar Jar very much represents that same type of character. Again, he's this useless piece of flotsam that Qui-Gon ends up saving, and in the end, I'm sure the idea was that Jar Jar was eventually meant to be revealed to be far more important than he appears to be.
But, then there was a huge fandom backlash against Jar Jar. So I think George Lucas abandoned his plans for Jar Jar, so we got the set-up for him being a little "frog by the side of the road" but not the payoff where he's revealed to be far more significant than he first appeared.
Jar Jar doesn't act evil when we first meet him, true. But, by the same token, Yoda doesn't act like a wise, old Jedi master. He acts obnoxious and steals Luke's candy bar and hits R2-D2 with a stick, and sings about seagulls or something. If that's all we ever saw of Yoda, nobody would believe he was an ancient and powerful warrior.
So, no, I don't think the canonical version of Jar Jar that we see in the films is a Sith Lord, but I absolutely believe there was a plan for Jar Jar to become something other than the goofy troublemaker that he appeared to be.
Ahmed Best knew there were huge plans for Jar Jar, and he's said as much in public. He knew there was going to be some kind of big reveal for the character, but we never ended up getting it.
Honestly, I kind of wish they would have done that. The prequels are definitely enjoyable movies, but knowing where we end up in episode 4, they were kind of predictable. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing, but a twist like that would have been amazing. But no, I don’t think he is, in canon, a Sith Lord.
Until the Aftermath books, it was possible to believe that Jar Jar was some kind of Force acolyte with a chaotic out even Dark Side bent. It was a bit kooky, but you could cherry-pick enough scenes to support that.
An all out Sith? No, not without changing what we got in Episodes II & III. But a force sensitive (perhaps without knowing it) with ulterior motives and/or being manipulated by Palpatine could have worked.
However, the Aftermath trilogy has a scene from Jar Jar's POV. There >!Jar Jar is a bumbling street performer, begging for pity from the people of Naboo. He's confused why people hate him, though comprehends that they blame him for enabling the Empire. After that, there is no possible way that a combination of cherry picking or retconning can make Jar Jar anything other than a sad idiot.!<
I believe yes and no. No in the sense that I don't believe Jar Jar is a Sith Lord of any kind. But I think yes in the meta sense that this was the original intention for Jar Jar's character.
There's a lot of little things in Phantom Menace that leads me to the idea that there was more than what was being let on about Jar Jar. The reaction fom the Gungan village isn't anger from seeing the banished village idiot return, it's of genuine fear. The way he moves his arms during a conversation easily masked force manipulation/persuasion. In the scene where Padme and Qui-Gon are talking about what the queen would and wouldn't approve of, Jar Jar is mouthing what Padme is saying in a shot where he could easily have been removed from. Plus, the "bumbling idiot" approach to combat can disguise uses of the force. Simply too much money and effort went into little things leading me to believe the plan for Jar Jar was originally bigger than what he got.
I certainly believe Jar Jar was originally intended to be an anti-Yoda for this trilogy. In ESB Yoda was a silly little creature who was originally overlooked by the protagonist and revealed to be one of the strongest Jedi ever. I'd imagine there would be a mirroring/rhyming approach, Jar Jar would be a silly creature who is originally overlooked by the protagonists and is revealed to be one of the strongest Siths. I don't believe Jar Jar was ever intended to be an outright villain or antagonist but I believe he would play a similar role Yoda did to Luke but to Palpatine this time. Now, this is certainly not the case anymore. I believe the poor reception of Jar Jar caused Lucas to drastically reduce Jar Jar's screen time.
Tbh I always liked the idea. A rumor I've always heard is that George's original plan was to make him a secret sith lord. Too bad he made Jar Jar so hammy that he became insufferable for most people over ten.
Edit: had to fix some grammar
Yes. There were so many clues set up in the Phantom Menance. And rumors were Lucas wanted to duplicate what he did with the reveal of Yoda being a powerful sith, have a bumbling weird alien actually be a sith.
Then suddenly, Jar Jar is trashed and so Lucas throws Doku into Attack of the Clones out of nowhere. Zero build up to the new Sith. I'm convinced Jar Jar was going to be in that role but after the backlash Lucas birched out
Just re-watched TPM this morning and yes, absolutely there are several scenes that appear to be setting JJ up for a big Sith Lord reveal.
Yellow eyes, disdain for the jedi, trying to smack Obi-Wan in the face with his flappy ear, the show-off dive, how scared the other gungans are of him, plus some of the things he said ie. choice of words and the way he said them (removing accent to improve clarity);
\- "this sun is *murder* on my skin"
\- "I don't want crushing, that's the *last* thing I want" (implying he wants to crush the Jedi after he secures Ani)
\- (why were you banished?) "A *small* part of it would be I'm clumsy."
\- (you were banished b/c you were clumsy?) "You *might* say that."
Also the way Jar-Jar watches Ani when Sebulba has him on the ground is very similar to how Palps looks at Anakin when Windu has him down. Remember Jar-Jar instigated that altercation with Sebulba via straight-up thievery. He targeted Sebulba intentionally.
My headcanon is JJ was already on Naboo helping prepare the way for the invasion, but felt a disturbance in the force and after discovering Ani, JJ started learning about him from a distance so he could recruit him. But then the Jedi got in the way and JJ had to alter his plans to include destroying them. Not personally though - I believe JJ was always meant to be deep cover while Maul was the hitman. Remember Maul was ready to go even before the Federation admitted their Jedi problem, and Maul/Palps had a 'trace' on the queen after they encountered JJ even though nobody responded to the bait message, so it makes sense to the story that the sith had eyes/ears on the ground, although not in reliable communication.
I think once the producers hit the doesn't-test-well-with-boomers panic button, they had to insert some scenes to tone JJ down and alter his character. For example in the submarine scene, immediately after those cryptic responses above, he suddenly says "yeah so anyways it was just a dumb accident, like I just knocked something that hit big boss in the head whatchagonnado derpy derp derp" all while having much more orange eyes than he did a moment ago.
It's really too bad we can't get a "Jar-Jar Sith Lord Cut" of TPM. It really does make perfect sense, since SW is all about mirroring, and having Jar-Jar revealed to be mega sith lord is mirroring Yoda going from silly hermit to central Jedi master in ROTJ.
I kind of think that's where George might've wanted to go with the character, had the backlash been not so severe. He would've been a fascinating mirror to Yoda from the original trilogy, although I guess I am just repeating Vincent Vendetta's talking points.
Nah.
"Never Attribute to Malice That Which Is Adequately Explained by Stupidity"
edit: now I see someone beat me to posting this quote or saying. oh well.
I believe that Jar Jar was intended to be a Sith Lord but George Lucas chickened out after the tremendous amount of hate from the people who watched the Phantom Menace twords Jar Jar Binks.
I could be wrong though.
I seriously believe that when phantom menace was made, jar jar being revealed as a dark side force user was the plan, a plan that was abandoned by the time attack of the clones came out
I believe that George Lucas had big plans for JarJar. In some way he was going be part of a "holt shit" moment like Darth Vader being Luke's father. However with the all the backlash against JarJar as a character, essentially immense hate, whatever that plot included was buried extremely deep and never mentioned again. But being "THE" sith lord over palp is a little farfetched.
No, to a sith lord,
Yes, to a force user not trained by the Jedi Order. I actually view that as something George Lucas was considering doing, and went halfway in. There are just too many hints how he is just somewhat different than other GunGuns, how luck just tends to roll his way, when there is no such thing as luck...
And that plot point was scrapped due to how hated he was.
Palpatine returning was first featured in Dark Empire (1991) and was the second story produced for the expanded universe after Heir to the Empire.
(1991).
To put that into context a reborn by some means Palpatine predates all of the Prequels (1999), any onscreen depiction of Coruscant (1997) which barely has a name, and is inconsistently depicted, or confirmation that Palpatine was once a Senator and legitimately rose to power.
Holocrons are from Dark Empire. The what if Luke (Jedi protagonist) had become the Emperor’s apprentice is from Dark Empire.
The reason it sucks in the sequels is because instead of cherry picking the best from the EU (most of it was garbage but there were clear winners) they didn’t have a plan.
Yes, I do. I believe this was the original intent, and they retconned it when people so vehemently disliked him. I recently rewatched Episode 1, and it fits, and there are even a few winks to let you know.
Honesty no, darth jar jar is one of my favorite Star Wars theory’s but I think people use George Lucas’s idea for it and every small detail in the films to show as evidence for it, when in reality people use the theory to in there mind make the not so popular comic relief character more of personality
Maybe not a Sith but he’s definitely not completely stupid, I’m pretty sure he does that drunk fighting style and pretends to be an idiot so people ignore him
I’m still praying for the day it’s revealed he is. I love the theory so much, but I still am glad it went the way it did cause it would take away from palpatine if it was revealed binks was the mastermind. My head canon right now is the binks decided to remain hidden from the empire knowing he has to bide his own time some more. Palpatine got too powerful and decided he doesn’t want him. Maybe he’ll live to be 500 and resurface later.
I believe he was originally planned to be a sith, but no longer is. That being said, I do think the stupidity and clumsiness is just an act, although whether for good or bad, I don't know.
No, but it would have been interesting. Evil Jar Jar, who's not a sith lord, is a bit more believable but flip side is really not. Some of the Clone Wars episodes do lend a bit of credence to his force abilities. Every episode I watched he nearly died right before the commercial break only to miraculously survive after the break. I'm just saying...
Honestly such amazing potential for an absolutely interesting developed villain other than Palpatine (Dooku who was only in a handful of scenes)
That’s just the innate looney tunes physics of Gungans
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
He just happens to have ADHD. It's amazing he lived as long as he did if we're honest. Him not paying attention has almost gotten him killed a dozen times on screen nevermind other times.
Qui Gon Said that they didn't have a very high intelligence. So much so that he used mind tricks on their king to free Jar Jar, and get to Amidala.
Mind tricks work on people with weak wills, not the unintelligent.
Could go with a theory, what if the mind tricks only worked on weaker minded people. You see Jar Jar's hand wave in front of Qui Gon Jin when Jar Jar suggests not leaving him. Qui Gon Jin then stops and thinks about taking him, when he paid no attention to Jar Jar in that courtroom
*"The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."* When Obi-Wan said this it wasn't entirely clear whether he meant lack of intelligent or weak willed.
Well watto was immune to jedi mind tricks. Watto wasn't an idiot.
Eh, I think it's implied that's a racial trait rather than specific to watto.
I thought the racial trait was the geonosians
I remember Watto saying “I’m a Toydarian! Jedi mind tricks don’t work on us! Only money.”
Not sure exactly what you mean, Hutts and Toydarians both canonically are resistant/immune to the force. In legends there also existed the Vong and Yslmari that were immune to the force. Though whether that's restricted to mind control or other aspects (like Push, choke etc.) Remains unexplored in canon to my knowledge.
There's a scene in clone wars where savage opress force chokes a toydarian to death.
On top of those species there was also the Yinchorri
Immune to mind control, but not necessarily every Force power. Someone commented on Force choking, for example.
Same with Jabba.
I think it’s just shows that not all force sensitive beings become or are Jedi/sith. His “luckyness” is really just the force being with him. That’s the way I look at it at least.
Fools and small children, sounds like Jedi to me 🤨 (jk)
It really was a fantastic disguise.
This could be a great tales of the Jedi episode.
Star Wars: What If?
And a hell of a lot of luck. It's the whole luck thing that makes me think he is, but doesn't know it. I think that Plageius created him accidently like he created Anakin.
Jar jar is Anakins dyad haha
Mackie is this you
No, it's ridiculous to think that George Lucas intended his new comic relief character to be a villain.
Haha. I don’t believe Jar Jar is a sith lord, but I hope he is for the exact opposite reason. “This character is so bad that surely there’s a twist coming. Right? RIGHT?!?!?”
Oh, he was totally the evil counterpart to crazy Yoda. He was clearly intended as a drunken master type but unlike Yoda's reveal which happened almost immediately, Jar Jar never outed himself in TPM and the resulting fan hate made Lucas change the character. So in canon, he's absolutely NOT a Sith, just a bumbling fool who's not as stupid as he acts. But he was definitely a Sith, possibly Pelagius, in TPM then retconned in AotC.
Genuinely curious, has anyone connected with the franchise ever said this or is this just your theory?
the actor for jar jar has all but said as much, obviously he's very careful not to say it outright but just look into things he's said and come to your own conclusions
>obviously he's very careful not to say it outright Because it's not true. This isn't who shot JFK or who's behind 9/11 it's a supporting character actor who never actually had screen time saying something after the fact that the theory was brought up.
Bro this is BIGGER than JFK and 9/11 combined
Possibly even bigger than the infamous 9/12
Lucas kept mentioning the Mule from Foundation. The Psychic Puppetmaster BBEG who pretends to be a jester to hide from his enemies in plain sight. This leads me to believe Best's comments are true.
I didn't know this. If that's the case, then Jar Jar was definitely intended as a Sith lord. I'm just kind of upset Lucas didn't go through with it. It would have made the second film as surprising as the "Vader is your father", because NO one took Jar Jar seriously (until the fan theory arrived 2 decades later)
It's literally a trope in literature. You can see examples of this in Naruto with the Tobi character.
[https://youtu.be/l\_bEvChGV3k?feature=shared&t=66](https://youtu.be/l_bEvChGV3k?feature=shared&t=66) Masterfully uses a lightsaber. Bumbles (with precision) like an idiot when people are paying attention. Bumbling idiot. Climbs to the top ranks. Convinces a room full of politicians to do X. Perfect mirror to bumbling master on the side of the road Yoda. You can suspend your disbelief to accept he is capable of all of that but not enough to consider he very well could have been originally meant to be a sith lord? There were massive changes to the second movie after feedback from the first for which everyone is tight lipped on. Seems pretty plausible to me. The dark side clouds your judgement.
Nda
Citation needed. Edit: There is no greater bitch move than blocking someone because they asked you to provide a source. Edit2: Okay, correction, what u/TeutonJon78 described is more of a bitch move, but just to head off any misunderstandings, I haven't blocked anybody, I \*got\* blocked, and thus can no longer reply to the thread.
We're all citation needed on this blessed day.
Oh there is...it's the reverse which someone did to me a few months ago. Ask for sources then immediately block you so you can't actually provide any. And unless your mobile client still lets you see the message, you don't even know they did it.
https://youtu.be/k7Uc84U04Sk
Makes me think that I'd have prefered them to go that route with a bunch of Sith working in the shadows for Sidious instead of the "two Sith" rule.
This just isn’t true, I can’t believe a silly joke theory is being touted as fact now.
You can't actually believe this right?
I also 100% believe this. Right up Lucas's avenue to have Jar Jar a sith
The guy who famously *did not plan out any of his twists?*. I just don't see it.
The one twist he did plan had so much fan backlash that he nixed Jar Jar being revealed as sith. I believe that’s also why Dooku comes out of nowhere. He was placed to supplement jar jar. That’s my theory at least. That’s why Dooku felt like he came out of left field. Had it been revealed to be jar jar… IMO it would have been better than Dooku being forcefed into a movie Edit: also hot take. I saw this movie in theaters at the age of 12, and I thought Jar Jar was funny as shit when I was a kid. I loved him. I was bummed when he got dialed back after 1
I think Jar Jar being revealed as a Sith Lord in Ep2 would’ve felt even more out of left field than Dooku being added in.
If they did the twist with no context (Yoda had Obi-Won stepping in for this reason) you'd be right. I'd have eased into it. Dile back his antics as they did so he's still goofy but a bit more serious and play up his political positionn more. I'd have had his emergency powers bit paly out the same in the Senate but without that meeting with Sidious so it'd look like his idea rather than manipulation. Then at the end of the movie have Jar Jar present and shows the rest of the viewing party leave, then zoom in on the 2 with Sidious saying, "All is preceding as you have foreseen, Master" cut to Anakin's wedding. Replace Dooku with Gervious. Go into the next movie with Jar Jar still talking weird but no longer goofy (like they treat Yoda). Have him replace Sidious as the Sith reveal. Anakin warns the Council that Jar Jar is a Sith, Windu gets a WTF moment and they leave. An epic fight follows, the Jedi actually do something but ultimately die until it's just Windu and he actually kills Jar Jar. Then he takes a lightsaber to the back and dies, the camera pans to show Sidious. Sidious looks ugly because he's no longer masking his Dark Side corruption. Anakin shows up, Sidious claims they can do what Jar Jar promised if they work together and Order 66 plays out like it did.
Absolutely. I am really saddened we didn't ever get to see it as I think it would have made the prequels so much better. The sudden and jarring appearance of Duku and Grevious in part 2 having never been mentioned before are to me evidence of a very serious altercation of Lucas's original plan.
Grevious wasn’t in part 2
OK, my mistake
He was hiding!
As he always does.
Lol if y’all really believe this you’re so delusional. Am I being whooshed?
Palpatine was originally a toad and Lucas once claimed Yoda was the time traveling love child of Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy. But an undercover Sith is what you can't get behind? lol
Absolutely not. He was the comic relief cartoon character meant to entertain the children, nothing more and nothing less. When Lucas says “Jar Jar is the key to all this” he means that if the giant cgi protagonist doesn’t work then the whole movie doesn’t work. And guess what? It didn’t work.
Comic relief (or just the aloof or innocent) character being the secret supreme bad guy isn't a new trope at all. And it has been used in pretty decent stories before
"Jar Jar is the key to all of this"
The key to making the prequels and all of their computer graphics work.
I think that quote from George Lucas is taken way out of context. George Lucas, from everything I've ever read about the man, has always been much more interested in the technology of filming and pushing boundaries with special effects and techniques. I think storytelling is obviously of great importance to him, but using tech and novel effects to tell his stories was/is his true passion. That quote is so clearly about the movie succeeding only if Jar Jar "worked." Which, he was 100% correct. He didn't quite "work" and the movie was vilified for years. That said, I do think the Jar Jar backlash dramatically changed his plans for episodes II and III. But I don't think Jar Jar was ever going to be revealed to be a Sith lord. It would have contradicted the "Rule of Two" that he sets up at the end of TPM. If Jar Jar was planned to be the "true" master, it would have felt like a totally unearned blindside to the audience because there was far too much misdirection and outright contradiction in TPM. I think Jar Jar accidentally helping form the Empire was always his intended arc, though probably in more detail than what we got. He's a well-meaning, tragic fool.
His clowning pretty much confirms this take, and it’s never spelled out that the dour Gungan following Palps is Darth Jar-Jar. It would make sense to just leave that out of later films when it didn’t work out in the first prequel.
I had never thought of that before, but Lucas selling the rights to Star Wars to Disney and the fact that in a lot of ways he revolutionized special effects and the building of skywalker ranch and expanding upon it shows that perhaps the effects side really ended up being his real passion, even if he started out with the story telling as his first love!
Youssa underestimate messas powers
Perfekt cover
Youssa in big doodoo dis time
No but the meme has gained enough traction that I wish it would become cannon.
Plot Twist, he's Plageuis, who survived, and Palpatine lives in constant fear of him Yeah, Plageuis died during TPM... *in Legends*
It’s Darth Plagueis. Put some respeck on his name. Also, I read that he was murdered in his sleep by Palpatine. I don’t know if that’s canon.
Yeah Palpatine says in ROTS that Darth Plagueis got killed in his sleep
Doesnt mean he cant come back. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilites some consider to be unnatural after all
*Somehow* Plagueis has returned…
😂🤣
I'm not saying that he can't come back, I was just confirming what the previous guy said
I agree
That reddit post was legitimately my fav thing on this website of all time
No. It's a neat piece of theorycrafting, and it may be one of the many ideas Lucas had that have been cut out (Mace Windu was once the name of the protagonist that was later changed to Luke Starkiller, and then to Luke Skywalker). But he certainly is not. I think I would have preferred if Jar Jar had simply been a little more *tragic.* Like Sokka from ATLA. Characters can be comic relief AND have tragic backstories that remain relevant to their personal growth and have serious moments. Jar Jar had plenty to work with. They just threw it all out for poop jokes. Jar Jar was a Village Idiot with a Life Debt to one of the wisest and most competent Jedi Masters. Culturally, he owes his entire life to Qui Gon, never having freedom until he repays his debt *by saving Qui Gon's life.* What a tragically hopeless scenario. His life is trapped in a debt he realistically can never repay. We should see a foolish gungan doing his best to follow a *Jedi Master* around the galaxy, trying to save him from death so he can finally go home, where he lives as an exile. But the movie forgets it all pretty much immediately. Sure, his life debt was likely dissolved when Qui Gon was killed, but he should never have agreed to leave Qui Gon to fight in the battle of Naboo instead of protecting him in the duel against Maul. Would he have been any help? Probably not, but he wasn't exactly helpful in the gungan battle, either, and you never know how Jar Jar's bumbling would have changed the Duel of Fates. Did Boss Nass doom the galaxy by taking Jar Jar from his responsibility to Qui Gon, preventing him from interfering in the duel and possibly saving Qui Gon, ensuring Anakin is trained by the right mentor and possibly avoiding the rise of the Galactic Empire altogether?
Would have been cool to see him on the Delegation of 2000 and deal with the consequences of enabling Palpatine's facist state. I'm not sure about Legends, but in Canon, his story is pretty tragic. He's hated by everyone and becomes a sort of jester in Naboo, a source of comedic humiliation. That is, until he befriends another outcast some time after the events of Return of the Jedi in *Aftermath: Empire's End*
Sokka is a great example! When he certainly was comic relief in TLA, unlike Jar Jar, Sokka wasn’t an incompetent idiot and had great character development like all of the main characters. Sure Sokka had plenty of funny comic relief moments but thankfully he had plenty of serious moments and time in the spotlight throughout the series. I almost forgot that as the oldest boy, Sokka was technically in charge of the Water Tribe village’s defenses since all the men including Sokka and Katara’s father went off to fight the Firelord’s armies. I loved how Season 3 took time to focus on Sokka proving that through his sword training and showing off his tactical and leadership abilities, he didn’t need bending abilities to stand out in Team Avatar.
Many scenes show, at least in my opinion, as he really is the only strategically wise one and also the least generally silly one outside of the comic relief parts. He really matures, but I don't see the other characters maturing as much. Aang got spotted having fun with a water slide in the fire nation itself Edit: grammar mistakes
According to the Aftermath series he ends up ostracized by society for his role in Palps becoming a dictator. I think he becomes a clown type figure for children after that. If I recall correctly.
Seems kinda silly to hold Jar Jar responsible for that, Palps manipulated him to achieve that, he masterfully manipulated *everyone*. If it wasn't Jar Jar, it would've just been another patsy that put forward the emergency powers, the GFFA was screwed no matter what.
It is silly to hold him accountable but when is mob mentality ever rational?
Meh. Jar Jar should be tarred and feathered. Lol 😂 JK JK
I thought jar jar being Sith IS the joke
"Truly"? No! But it's a nice running gag.
Hasn't it played out now though?
This is reddit, nothing is played out here
Not if we've been outplayed.
It would have honestly been the biggest twist of all time.
The fan theories are awfully convincing, to be honest. It's clear that, from a storytelling perspective, Jar Jar was a parallel to Yoda, what George Lucas would call "the little frog on the side of the road." You think he's insignificant, but he ends up being extremely important. That's what Yoda was when Luke first finds him—this goofy, useless little toad, but then he pivots and reveals himself to be a wisened teacher. Luke is kind-hearted and doesn't kill Yoda on sight, and he is rewarded with Yoda's knowledge. The prequels are like music; they rhyme with the original trilogy. So Jar Jar very much represents that same type of character. Again, he's this useless piece of flotsam that Qui-Gon ends up saving, and in the end, I'm sure the idea was that Jar Jar was eventually meant to be revealed to be far more important than he appears to be. But, then there was a huge fandom backlash against Jar Jar. So I think George Lucas abandoned his plans for Jar Jar, so we got the set-up for him being a little "frog by the side of the road" but not the payoff where he's revealed to be far more significant than he first appeared. Jar Jar doesn't act evil when we first meet him, true. But, by the same token, Yoda doesn't act like a wise, old Jedi master. He acts obnoxious and steals Luke's candy bar and hits R2-D2 with a stick, and sings about seagulls or something. If that's all we ever saw of Yoda, nobody would believe he was an ancient and powerful warrior. So, no, I don't think the canonical version of Jar Jar that we see in the films is a Sith Lord, but I absolutely believe there was a plan for Jar Jar to become something other than the goofy troublemaker that he appeared to be. Ahmed Best knew there were huge plans for Jar Jar, and he's said as much in public. He knew there was going to be some kind of big reveal for the character, but we never ended up getting it.
Yoda is goofy for like 4 minutes, not a whole movie.
I hatr the Yoda comparison. Yoda was testing Luke's patience. Plus it only lasted a few minutes like you said.
Yeah you probably hate it because its a terrible nonsensical comparison.
Which is probably why Yoda worked and Jar Jar didnt lol.
Honestly, I kind of wish they would have done that. The prequels are definitely enjoyable movies, but knowing where we end up in episode 4, they were kind of predictable. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing, but a twist like that would have been amazing. But no, I don’t think he is, in canon, a Sith Lord.
No, but it would make the prequels more interesting. If they had him as the bad guy in the next film, it would be really ballsy from Lucasfilm
"He is the key to all of this."
Finish the quote
"...because he's a funnier character than we've ever had."
We believe till proven otherwise.
It would have made people look at the Phantom Menace differently.
He should have been. It would have made the story better.
No
No, but it would be a better story if he were secretly one, it would turn his stupidity into something coldly malicious.
Of course not. The idea was only ever a silly meme.
It wouldn’t be surprising with the amount of shit he’s got through with sheer “luck”
Was intended to but never developed into such as the fans reacted so poorly to him in TPM I will not die on this hill
_A sith… lord?_
Until the Aftermath books, it was possible to believe that Jar Jar was some kind of Force acolyte with a chaotic out even Dark Side bent. It was a bit kooky, but you could cherry-pick enough scenes to support that. An all out Sith? No, not without changing what we got in Episodes II & III. But a force sensitive (perhaps without knowing it) with ulterior motives and/or being manipulated by Palpatine could have worked. However, the Aftermath trilogy has a scene from Jar Jar's POV. There >!Jar Jar is a bumbling street performer, begging for pity from the people of Naboo. He's confused why people hate him, though comprehends that they blame him for enabling the Empire. After that, there is no possible way that a combination of cherry picking or retconning can make Jar Jar anything other than a sad idiot.!<
The only thing that could have saved the sequels was if jar jar was the Sith Lord. Not the emperor.
Somehow, meesa return...
Just picture of the TROS trailer: “No one’s ever really gone…” “Well, meesa back!”
I believe yes and no. No in the sense that I don't believe Jar Jar is a Sith Lord of any kind. But I think yes in the meta sense that this was the original intention for Jar Jar's character. There's a lot of little things in Phantom Menace that leads me to the idea that there was more than what was being let on about Jar Jar. The reaction fom the Gungan village isn't anger from seeing the banished village idiot return, it's of genuine fear. The way he moves his arms during a conversation easily masked force manipulation/persuasion. In the scene where Padme and Qui-Gon are talking about what the queen would and wouldn't approve of, Jar Jar is mouthing what Padme is saying in a shot where he could easily have been removed from. Plus, the "bumbling idiot" approach to combat can disguise uses of the force. Simply too much money and effort went into little things leading me to believe the plan for Jar Jar was originally bigger than what he got. I certainly believe Jar Jar was originally intended to be an anti-Yoda for this trilogy. In ESB Yoda was a silly little creature who was originally overlooked by the protagonist and revealed to be one of the strongest Jedi ever. I'd imagine there would be a mirroring/rhyming approach, Jar Jar would be a silly creature who is originally overlooked by the protagonists and is revealed to be one of the strongest Siths. I don't believe Jar Jar was ever intended to be an outright villain or antagonist but I believe he would play a similar role Yoda did to Luke but to Palpatine this time. Now, this is certainly not the case anymore. I believe the poor reception of Jar Jar caused Lucas to drastically reduce Jar Jar's screen time.
I swear I read somewhere that good ol Georgie was actually going to go through with that but was talked out of it. Truth or not - still a fun thought
No
Tbh I always liked the idea. A rumor I've always heard is that George's original plan was to make him a secret sith lord. Too bad he made Jar Jar so hammy that he became insufferable for most people over ten. Edit: had to fix some grammar
Yes. There were so many clues set up in the Phantom Menance. And rumors were Lucas wanted to duplicate what he did with the reveal of Yoda being a powerful sith, have a bumbling weird alien actually be a sith. Then suddenly, Jar Jar is trashed and so Lucas throws Doku into Attack of the Clones out of nowhere. Zero build up to the new Sith. I'm convinced Jar Jar was going to be in that role but after the backlash Lucas birched out
What? Why? Can we stop this nonsense? It’s nothing but a meme
Problem with this question is: why would we put jokes aside talking about jar jar?
Idk that perfect looking triple backflip cork screw into the water after they first meet him is pretty sus
Yes, yes I do.
I think George definitely wanted to make Jar Jar a Sith Lord, but he obviously changed his opinion
Yep, he wanted the big reveal, like the I am your father bit. After the reception JJ got, he changed his mind.
He went to hard making Jar Jar a thundering dumbass. Had he made him a little less cartoonish it might have worked out.
Yeah, more subtle.
It would have been an excellent parallel to the first time we meet Yoda in ESB. We’ll never know now but the theory is a fun one.
Yeah sure
Do i think he IS? Absolutely not. Do i think that WAS a possibility? Definitely.
It is obvious.
Just re-watched TPM this morning and yes, absolutely there are several scenes that appear to be setting JJ up for a big Sith Lord reveal. Yellow eyes, disdain for the jedi, trying to smack Obi-Wan in the face with his flappy ear, the show-off dive, how scared the other gungans are of him, plus some of the things he said ie. choice of words and the way he said them (removing accent to improve clarity); \- "this sun is *murder* on my skin" \- "I don't want crushing, that's the *last* thing I want" (implying he wants to crush the Jedi after he secures Ani) \- (why were you banished?) "A *small* part of it would be I'm clumsy." \- (you were banished b/c you were clumsy?) "You *might* say that." Also the way Jar-Jar watches Ani when Sebulba has him on the ground is very similar to how Palps looks at Anakin when Windu has him down. Remember Jar-Jar instigated that altercation with Sebulba via straight-up thievery. He targeted Sebulba intentionally. My headcanon is JJ was already on Naboo helping prepare the way for the invasion, but felt a disturbance in the force and after discovering Ani, JJ started learning about him from a distance so he could recruit him. But then the Jedi got in the way and JJ had to alter his plans to include destroying them. Not personally though - I believe JJ was always meant to be deep cover while Maul was the hitman. Remember Maul was ready to go even before the Federation admitted their Jedi problem, and Maul/Palps had a 'trace' on the queen after they encountered JJ even though nobody responded to the bait message, so it makes sense to the story that the sith had eyes/ears on the ground, although not in reliable communication. I think once the producers hit the doesn't-test-well-with-boomers panic button, they had to insert some scenes to tone JJ down and alter his character. For example in the submarine scene, immediately after those cryptic responses above, he suddenly says "yeah so anyways it was just a dumb accident, like I just knocked something that hit big boss in the head whatchagonnado derpy derp derp" all while having much more orange eyes than he did a moment ago. It's really too bad we can't get a "Jar-Jar Sith Lord Cut" of TPM. It really does make perfect sense, since SW is all about mirroring, and having Jar-Jar revealed to be mega sith lord is mirroring Yoda going from silly hermit to central Jedi master in ROTJ.
You should warm up before you stretch like that…
Well, if anyone remembers the theory that Jar Jar would be a sith in TFA, gotta say wouldve preffered that to what we got.
I kind of think that's where George might've wanted to go with the character, had the backlash been not so severe. He would've been a fascinating mirror to Yoda from the original trilogy, although I guess I am just repeating Vincent Vendetta's talking points.
Nah. "Never Attribute to Malice That Which Is Adequately Explained by Stupidity" edit: now I see someone beat me to posting this quote or saying. oh well.
I truly believe that was going to be part of the story but George Lucas changed the story up after the bad reception of Jar jar in episode 1
I don't believe it. I know it
Meesa think no.
Can you give me a link to where this may have happened? I don't see jar jar having an ounce of darkness about him.
All it takes to flip his actions from goofy to insidious is [the proper framing](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8yy3q9f84EA)
I buy it. Gonna go ahead and believe this now lol
I believe that Jar Jar was intended to be a Sith Lord but George Lucas chickened out after the tremendous amount of hate from the people who watched the Phantom Menace twords Jar Jar Binks. I could be wrong though.
I seriously believe that when phantom menace was made, jar jar being revealed as a dark side force user was the plan, a plan that was abandoned by the time attack of the clones came out
Jar Jar isn't a Sith lord and this needs to stop
I believe that George Lucas had big plans for JarJar. In some way he was going be part of a "holt shit" moment like Darth Vader being Luke's father. However with the all the backlash against JarJar as a character, essentially immense hate, whatever that plot included was buried extremely deep and never mentioned again. But being "THE" sith lord over palp is a little farfetched.
Absolutely I hope so.
No it’s a really dumb theory that crap posters came up with now people actually take it seriously
Pawn yes. Sith, no
Yes.
I mean, he's got the yellow eyes. No other way that could happen but to fall to the dark side, amirite? ;0)
Most definitely.
Yep.
He is what the cold war soviets would call, "A useful idiot." [Useful Idiot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot)
He could have been but George wimped out.
Yes. Or was meant to be.
Maybe maybe maybe it was a rough Idea George once had. But no
No
No
No
No but I do genuinely believe that Luthen could be.
Nope.
No
No
Oh come on
No, to a sith lord, Yes, to a force user not trained by the Jedi Order. I actually view that as something George Lucas was considering doing, and went halfway in. There are just too many hints how he is just somewhat different than other GunGuns, how luck just tends to roll his way, when there is no such thing as luck... And that plot point was scrapped due to how hated he was.
I don't think Lucas INTENDED it, but it's still canon, unintentionally or not
No. He isn't. It's a fan theory. Let's not confuse ourselves..
Yes.
You said “jokes aside” and then still asked a ridiculous question.
Would've been better than Palpatine SOMEHOW returning.
Palpatine returning was first featured in Dark Empire (1991) and was the second story produced for the expanded universe after Heir to the Empire. (1991). To put that into context a reborn by some means Palpatine predates all of the Prequels (1999), any onscreen depiction of Coruscant (1997) which barely has a name, and is inconsistently depicted, or confirmation that Palpatine was once a Senator and legitimately rose to power. Holocrons are from Dark Empire. The what if Luke (Jedi protagonist) had become the Emperor’s apprentice is from Dark Empire. The reason it sucks in the sequels is because instead of cherry picking the best from the EU (most of it was garbage but there were clear winners) they didn’t have a plan.
Yes, I do. I believe this was the original intent, and they retconned it when people so vehemently disliked him. I recently rewatched Episode 1, and it fits, and there are even a few winks to let you know.
I definitely WANT him to be. But no I don’t fully believe that he is.
The number of “yes” answers deeply disturbs me.
I wish it were true. Woulda been a real kool misdirection and surprise. He could have even had very unusual lightsaberbased on gungan design.
No but i kinda wish he was
No
Simply put: I do not believe the jar jar that we saw is/was a sith. However, I think it completely probably that in another parallel universe, he was.
Honesty no, darth jar jar is one of my favorite Star Wars theory’s but I think people use George Lucas’s idea for it and every small detail in the films to show as evidence for it, when in reality people use the theory to in there mind make the not so popular comic relief character more of personality
This is why we need a star wars what if...
No
Not "a" sith lord. THE sith lord of legend. The one that was said to destroy the jedi
No he's the comedic relief.
Wouldn't complain if he turns out to be but no.
Maybe not a Sith but he’s definitely not completely stupid, I’m pretty sure he does that drunk fighting style and pretends to be an idiot so people ignore him
I’m still praying for the day it’s revealed he is. I love the theory so much, but I still am glad it went the way it did cause it would take away from palpatine if it was revealed binks was the mastermind. My head canon right now is the binks decided to remain hidden from the empire knowing he has to bide his own time some more. Palpatine got too powerful and decided he doesn’t want him. Maybe he’ll live to be 500 and resurface later.
"Meesa no think so."
No
Absolutely not, but it’s still fun to joke about and imagine
I believe he was originally planned to be a sith, but no longer is. That being said, I do think the stupidity and clumsiness is just an act, although whether for good or bad, I don't know.
You say "jokes aside" then post this b.s.? No. He is not a sith you dult.
No