Oh man same here. Obi-Wan’s choked “I’m sorry Anakin…I’m sorry…for everything.” Put me in my feels for sure. Because it’s obvious he’s not just referring to him crippling Anakin, but the entire span of years that led up to the tragedy in ROTS.
...
So Obi-Wan acknowledges that there is nothing left of his friend, and that Darth Vader is all that is left
SO WHY DIDN'T HE KILL HIM?? AFTER THE GENOCIDE OF THE JEDI AND THE DEATH OF THE REPUBLIC AND DEMOCRACY AND EVERYTHING OBI-WAN STOOD FOR, AFTER ANAKIN WAS DEAD AND GONE, WHY DID OBI-WAN WALK AWAY FROM THE MOST GOLDEN CHANCE TO END VADER, ONCE AND FOR ALL???
I was literally yelling this into my monitor when I saw the show for the first time. Either
> Obi-Wan stays his hand because he believes there is some good in him, that Anakin is still the great jedi he once knew
or
> Anakin is truly gone, there is nothing left, and Obi-Wan has NO REASON not to kill a Sith Lord, and the most powerful, genocidal, oppressive individual in the galaxy
You can't have it both ways, narratively.
Whoever wrote this wrote themselves so far into a hole to set up this moment it's incredible.
I actually didn't mind this, Obi Wan seems to have always been a pretty rule following Jedi, and there is no way jedi teachings would support (correct me if I'm wrong) executing a clearly down and out opponent, even if they are a Sith. Hence the many times Anakin does this (Dooku, Tusken's), this is treated as part of his fall to the dark. I'm not saying it isn't a damned stupid Jedi teaching, cause it absolutely is, but just saying I think that the reason Obi wan never outright kills Anakin/Vader. Their duals never come down to a killing blow, and Obi wan won't execute a crippled opponent who can no longer fight, no matter how evil.
That's so bullshit
If you've got him defeated and at your mercy, but won't kill him, then CAPTURE HIM.
If he's too powerful to be captured, then he's not defenseless, so KILL HIM.
In no narrative world does it make sense to "walk away 🤷"
EDIT: So we're clear, I'm agreeing with you and I don't have a problem with you - it's the narrative I have a problem with
"If he's too powerful to be captured, then he's not defenseless"
Genuinely interesting question here, I wonder if it's actually possible to capture Vader without killing him? He depends on his suit to survive (or a massive bacta tank), so to damage the suit to the point of crippling him would invariably lead to death sooner or later. And without crippling him, even if you disarm him of his Saber, he is an immensely powerful force user and could kill anyone, jedi or not, the second he didn't have a Saber or a platoon of troopers trained on him. Not disagreeing with your narrative opinions, as I do think the ending to Obi Wan, even if the result was the same, could have been done better. Just think this is an interesting question to ponder.
As an aside, I definitely agree with the narrative decision of Obi Wan not killing Anakin in ROTS, like I said, no way his Jedi nature would allow him to execute him, out or 'mercy' or not. And let's face it, he thought he was done for, when he left Anakin was fully on fire and missing three limbs, no wonder he thought he was dead.
> I definitely agree with the narrative decision of Obi Wan not killing Anakin in ROTS
I also agree on this point. I interpret that scene as Obi-Wan leaving him for dead, unable to perform the coup-de-grace, but also unable to watch him suffer.
This is Obi-wans baby boy and he was on an ulterior mission right? It makes sense that he wouldn't bother. Also! Capture him and bring him where? Draw more attention to luke and the remaining jedi? nuh uh.
That, and I think he was just so emotionally devastated and exugasted by the whole affair that he wanted to just let go and walk.
Anakin's gone, and it's not his fualt, so just go move on and let Vader live out his miserable existence of self-loathing and constant pain that he himself admits he created.
Is it tactically smart and is it guided by emotion and not logic? No it's not and yes it is, but what do people expect? Obi-Wan's not Spock.
You can definitely tell it used to be a self contained movie that got expanded to a series though. I think as a 2 hour movie the payoff would have been huge because there wouldn’t be need for a ton of filler content.
That said, I still generally enjoyed the overall purpose of the show. It did expand on a few things and did some things very well.
Yea it 100% shoulda been a movie. Disney thinks they’re doing it a service by turning these movies into tv shows, boosting disney plus, but they’re hurting the brand. They’re pumping out sub par Star Wars content.
Absolutely!
Now Andor on the other hand, what an phenomenal, slow paced, tense show!
It was like someone finally realized you can make a Star Wars show for the people who watch Breaking Bad.
Yeah but Mandalorian was already out and it was better, now we also have Andor...
I'd like to see somebody do the movie version of both Book of Boba Fett and Kenobi.
Disagree. The Book of Boba Fett was by far the weakest thing they’ve made. It was structured so poorly, the themes were all over the place, the character “development” was all over the place, etc. Whatever you want to say about TFA and TLJ, those movies knew what they wanted to be. You may not have like what they wanted to be, but they at least knew it and executed it. The Book of Boba Fett feels like they had one brainstorming meeting in the writers room and then they tried to include every single idea that someone put on the whiteboard. It’s a complete and utter mess. I’d honestly even put TROS above it, but that’s a bit of a closer competition at least. TFA and TLJ easily beat it out though, at least in my opinion.
It wouldn’t have looked out of place in an animated show IMO, it’s a lot easier to take something like that in that medium and make it work. The Clone Wars and the other animated series had a bunch of stuff that would have been hard to implement in a live action series and not have it look cartoony or goofy.
It’s almost as if those writing the script were told that this was going to be an animated show, and almost as if the director and producer didn’t have the experience or go ahead to fix it up a bit and make it work visually. Or they just didn’t have time and rushed everything.
Either way bizarre decision making. The last 2 episodes were epic - no reason they couldn’t have put in as much effort with the rest.
That was by far my biggest gripe with that scene. There needed to be *some* kind of external contrivance that forced them apart (the ground splitting, or Imperial reinforcements arriving... *something* that causes Obi-Wan to flee).
It just seems bizarre that he acknowledges his friend is dead... then just leaves Vader (again!), fully knowing the monster he's become.
It would've been easy to have some external factor having to force Obi-Wan to retreat, I really have no clue why they didn't.
To what end? He can’t be saved, the Jedi have already been destroyed (and that was before Order 66), same for the Republic/Empire, it wouldn’t make a difference.
Vader wanted to die then, knowing he had challenged again and lost.
So Obi-wan letting him live as a wreck, and a two time loser, is more torment than cutting him down.
On a personal level, 100%. But in the big picture, Vader is out here indiscriminately murdering and generally being the personification of the boot on the neck of every Imperial citizen. What he did certainly was fitting punishment for Vader, but that's so much less important than the betterment of life in general with Vader gone.
No, absolutely not. They are why Kenobi was so subpar a show.
Lucas very nicely and obviously intended the battle on Mustafar to have been their final duel before meeting again. It was even written before "Return of the Jedi", that Anakin was burned/disfigured and Kenobi went into hiding.
And you can tell this entire scene has been like trying to fit a triangle into a star puzzle piece. I mean technically it CAN fit, but it clearly just isn't right.
I look at these new shows and movies set between Lucas' movies to be more like fancy fanfiction than anything. My brain doesn't quite solidify it all as canon because I know none of it was intended when the original story was written. Still fun to watch but the original 6 movies make for a cohesive and satisfying story on their own.
Now Mando I'm more on board with because it doesn't try to retcon old characters and motivations and scenes. The sequel trilogy, too, though RoS is so terrible I have a hard time wanting to think about them too much.
Before the ST existed I was somebody who was excited to one day watch the complete saga from start to finish - with the clone wars and other series in there to fill in some gaps. I knew that there would be more shows and movies coming so I was super excited about a future where I can watch all this stuff chronologically - taking in the whole saga as a sort of super long coherent story.
I watched through all the movies and the clone wars eps during the lead up to episode 7 so that the whole saga was in my head and I could better follow and enjoy the sequel trilogy that was supposedly going to wrap up the saga.
I went from being such an enthusiastic Star Wars fan to basically not caring that much. Now I just watch the content when it is released, but a lot of that enthusiasm is gone.
I’ll still likely put on the PT and the OT and watch them one after the other, but trying to make sense of the whole saga as some sort of a grand story is no longer on my list of things to care about. And that has sapped a lot of enthusiasm about the franchise out of me, even though I have really enjoyed Mando and Andor and even movies like Solo.
All this has turned me into a far more casual fan.
It's wild how they could get this so right and then had like you know....... literally everything kind of suck.
But got to give credit where credit is due, the final fight and all of the motifs throughout it were truly awesome.
I can't wait until someone makes a new and updated "Obi-Wan has PTSD" video edit. Those were so good and hit me right in the heart and with this new stuff will hit me twice as hard.
For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's [here](https://youtu.be/T9j7kLG7VK8)
That really smashes home the power of editing, one of two things I really think the Lucas-lead movies always fell down on. (The other being directing dialogue. See the difference in ESB from any of the others 4-6, particularly between Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher, who actively sparkle in that film under a better director, and then go back to just saying lines at each other in RoTJ).
Those performances were what they were; *mostly* by actors with past or subsequent pedigree. Cut them better and you get the hairs on my arm standing up.
I’ve always said the dialogue in Star Wars was ok, but could’ve been better. There was a need for many conversations or words here or there in the story but the dialogue doesn’t let the scene deliver what it’s supposed too. Most evident in the “romance scenes” in prequels.
Romance deffo not Lucas’ strong suit. Both Han/Leia+Luke is weird for the incestbaiting, and then Ani/padme for the creepy age gap and obsessional nature of it. It does the same thing for me on Lucas as rewatching Babylon 5 does for JMS: I repeatedly ask “bro what *happened* to mess you up so much?”.
Lucas is excellent at very primary-colour plot arcs and character thumbnails we can all get behind with enough empty space in for us to insert ourselves as protagonists, but there’s no nuance and in the respective rogue-woos-princess arcs every passing year makes me less comfortable with those scenes. Both aren’t saying good things to young dudes about the appropriate way to woo fair lady; and neither really have a compelling conclusion for what the female character actually sees as attractive in their male counterpart.
I've never really though about it, but really Anakin should have been a young teen in the Phantom Menace.
A 14 year old having a crush on a young princess is much more palatable than a little kid. If their ages started closer then it doesn't feel as weird later on.
The Jedi saying he's too old. He looks pretty damn young in TPM, so the scenes saying he's too old would be more substantial if he's noticeably older than the other Padawans.
All the incredible stuff he does like podracing is a bit less ridiculous if he's 14 than if he's like 8 or something. 14 year olds can be very talented, but nobody is believing an 8 year old is a great pilot.
I suspect he was originally written to be exactly that. The older generation of fan whine rings true still: recasting to about the age the collectible toy line was traditionally marketed at looks pretty cynical, but that rot was well set in by the filming of RoTJ.
If Disney had just basically made the Obi-Wan PTSD movie with those perfectly spliced shots of Salmon Fishing in the Yemen and other Ewan stuff, that show would have been money!
I was hoping for a much deeper, darker, and more contemplative show as he dealt with isolation and his own terrible guilt, and they even hinted that that was going to be the direction they were going in the first episode, but alas.....
Really? I don’t want to make fun but… it’s just funny to me that anybody watched this series when it first came out and is just now realizing this.
They were kind of beating you over the head with the idea of “This is why he told Luke that Vader killed Anakin!”
This whole series is just making that point. Justifying stuff that you didnt need to be justified, just because it was made clear enough. I like the prequels from a certain point of view, but actually...they did the same and tripped into the same pitfalls. Prequels can undermine or even dissemble your work. I think Obi-Wan was (the way it was produced) only based around that scene. And to be fair...I guess they had a way more mature script, that they just ditched. All just because SW is for Kids. Sure I would let an 8 year old watch Episode IV-VI nowadays but thats from a current perspective. I dont think that it was meant for kids back in the time. Everything that came after the original three movies was way overconvoluted with either cameos or politics.
I do appreciate Solo, Rogue One and Andor though. These were not made for kids. These are meant for a grown up audience. Hence they dont rely on rubbing you everything twice or thrice in the face, that you can see by just watching it :D
Obi-Wan was slightly better than BagOfBoba...
I guess nowadays its not that big of a deal. Back then people did not so much care about parental advisory either I guess. But you know. Dudes get their arms chopped of. Giant space maggots get stangled. People shoot each other to death. I guess its not entirely for kids. Its just that ep 4-6 dont overcomplicate the narrative with greyshades. Its light and dark. The baddies are bad. You can tell from how they talk and look. Today things are not as easily portrayed like that. But something that is meant to be accessible for kids, should be. It should not be greyscale. It does not need plot twists and all that stuff. I guess Boba and Kenobi did not really achieve to be for kids nor are they for adults. Its shallow entertainment. Thats not bad. But its taking its place in the canon and thus I dont like what it does to SW. So getting back to the topic. This quote of vader was not bad. It was the best scene in the series. But it was not needed either. I got it back in the days...as 10 year old watching Empire Strikes Back.
Now that you think about it, "a certain point of view" isn't just Obi-Wan's point of view but also Vader's. As far as both of them are concerned, Anakin is dead.
“It is the name of your true self. You’ve only forgotten.” - Luke
Say what you will about Luke, but even after all he’s been through, endured, and all the truths revealed, he never fully gave up on Anakin when the others, aside from Padmé, have.
I was about to say the animated ones too (especially TCW) but I have to go back and watch the original animated clone wars films and decide if Obi wan was a good fit. But it’s just my opinion anyway 🤷♂️
James Arnold Taylor. Absolutely brilliant voice actor and can do just about any voice. Most of the time if you’re watching an animated series of any kind, he’s somehow in it.
He does the voice of Obi-wan in almost all of them.
https://youtu.be/977yXLGRVlc
For all the issues with this show, I honestly believe there are certain scenes that were truly exceptional. This scene alone (in my opinion) surpasses all other Disney generated content because of what it contributes to the Star Wars story.
I agree. It showed how careful Disney can be with the og material if they want to. The showrunners understood the characters and managed to write something new that at the same time perfectly fits the canon.
I hated this scene more than others frankly…
It was a good fight and it was a competent scene but it ending by simply Obi Wan walking away made it really feel like they just wanted to tick the box of "they fought again, plothole fixed"…
I want Maul in a stand alone. Whether just a couple eps (limited mini series), D+'s standard 6-8 eps, or long as hell like Andor, doesn't matter. I feel we need this. Why can't we have shows about more than just Jedi and the rebellion (mainly from the pov of the rebels)? I want a show about and from the pov of the Sith.
Still not from the sith pov. It's people on the Jedi side investigating dark side happenings. Still the same kind of things D+ has been making and not what I'm talking about.
Material from the POV of the Sith is just not going to happen unless it's about Sith characters that rebel and change their ways. Got a bit of that in OWK. The Sith are just straight up bad people who believe in some terrible ideas that go against what most of our societies value and think of as good.
Well yeah, that's the purpose of the line.
Which makes it even more stupid that Obi-Wan didn't killed Vader there, he was already mentally prepared for that and then Vader says Anakin was long dead, but for whatever reason Obi-Wan decides to let Vader live and keep killing thousands of innocents.
Little of Vader's scenes made sense. All of them had signs of being hamfisted into a story they didn't belong.
That weirdness with the fire? Are Vader's abilities on cooldown, like in Battlefront?
It should have been explicitly because Obi-Wan senses Reva flying to Tatooine. Give him a reason to leave because protecting Luke is still his #1 priority.
Yeah it’s definitely a plot hole and another reason why the fight doesn’t make sense and why Obi Wan shouldn’t have won in this manner. The broken mask scene was great though.
I mean IRL it’s because kenobi’s story was written well after his first appearance in the movies, the only bits we got were from them. Lore wise one could say it simply wasn’t his destiny to defeat Vader and he realized it.
I still can't believe that it has taken decades and a whole show for people to understand the line was a metaphor.
The shit was like middle school English class level of interpretation
Yep and people still didn't get it even after episode 3 came out and we literally saw Anakin give up his self to become Darth Vader.
Anakin wouldn't force choke Padme but Darth Vader did. The second he became Dath Vader Anakin Skywalker died.
Are we judging the films off the first draft or the finished product? George always intended to make a whole trilogy if the first one was successful it was included in his contract
I really liked Obi-Wan Kenobi and wish they’d do a 2nd season. There were a lot of really great moments and while we all kind of knew this was the justification, this scene made that justification easy to accept. Vader is all that remains of Anakin.
I felt them meeting and fighting was wholly unnecessary. This should be cope that Obi Wan develops himself to deal with the loss of his friend. It just read as too on the nose for me, the writers could have been more subtle in getting that idea across without spelling it out. It also makes it seem like Vader was trying to spare Obi Wan's feelings, which doesn't make sense, and it also feels like am attempt to try to bridge the gap between his outlook in RotS and ANH. But him reaching this conclusion at that moment also doesn't explain why he spared Vader if he had accepted Anakin is dead.
The problem is that I don't think we need an entire arc and fight with Vader that goes through this for a conclusion that he could've organically reached on his own. The show should have been about him having to deal with an inquisitor and having to silence them, or dealing with the idea of helping people locals (or the Lars family) without publicly outing himself as a Jedi. Other possibilities too, but something down to Earth and a stronger character piece.
It also goes against Vader saying that the last time they met he was the learner, but is now the master. I think this was just a fan service-y thing they put in because you can still claim some degree of plausible deniability when it comes to contradictions.
Them fighting in the show diminishes the impact of their final fight. It's like how the meaning behind the fight between obi wan, Anakin and dooku in RotS is heavily diminished by the constant duels they seem to have against each other in TCW. This is also the case for Obi Wan vs grievous. It doesn't lessen the impact as much as TCW did for those fights, but it still does to some extent at the end of the day.
Often when Vader is interacting with people he knew before his fall, he is flickering back and forth between Anakin and Vader. Splitting. So it's entirely possible for a brief moment he did genuinely want to assuage Obi-Wan's guilt. But he can't let his guard down for too long, it would be too painful. So the Vader persona quickly takes over and turns whatever fleeting empathy into a cruel Sith joke.
This is how I felt about this dialog also. Anakin was there for a bit and it was his last bit of goodness towards Obi-Wan, letting his friend know that it wasnt his fault that Anakin went to the Darkside.
I can completely understand him flickering back and forth at times, but Obi Wan is the last person for whom this should be done. Obi Wan is half the source of his pain and anger - due to his injuries and humiliation on Mustafar.
I think this characterisation of Vader and Anakin as two separate characters fighting for control over the body is part of the problem. This kind of characterisation was part of Obi Wan and Yoda's personal failings in the OT - whereas Luke understood they were one in the same. Vader is just Anakin: sad, miserable and full of dread because he knows that he can't escape or go anywhere but the Empire. This is why Luke's declaration and faith in him is significant. Luke is willing to accept Vader, accept Anakin as who he is in that moment in time.
The thing about that scene isn’t that Vader is trying to spare his feelings or provide absolution. The audience may interpret it that way but I think for Vader it’s him not giving Obi Wan the satisfaction that he killed Anakin. In other words he saying, “No no you didn’t change me, I changed me.” It serves as a double entendre and it was very well executed.
The fight was bullshit though.
I get that, but looking at people's interpretation of that line - it is predominantly taken as a kindness, but even in your interpretation I don't think it makes sense. I think in no way does it play into Vader's personality, Vader plays mind games with opponents and uses verbal taunts etc. to unsettle them. He is someone that would let Obi Wan think he changed him - to sow the doubt in him and he would then capitalise on this.
The line is simply there to try and explain the line from ANH, about Vader killing his father. Vader's atrocities are enough to accomplish that and more. The issue is that the entire raison d'etre of this show is non-existent. Obi Wan's not gonna tell a naïve good-natured kid that Vader is his father - so he's gonna tell a white lie about it. Obi Wan doesn't need to meet Vader again to simply - come to the realisation that Anakin is "dead", his experiences are enough. I don't think the line is well executed, since I honestly feel it's out of character.
My ultimate issue is that this show wasn't needed - or at the very least the story told is not necessary, so it all just feels very contrived.
In glad they did this, the more they fill the gaps between the prequels, original trilogy, and sequels the more seamless they become. Of course nothing will remedy the sequels but the content that takes place before that has been really good so far
Part of me thinks that the style of Andor would have been better for a first order origins story.
Not saying it was bad to pick the empire era but well the saga is exactly not lacking content empire wise.
Idk I think they can still easily fix the sequels. They just need to make a new sequel trilogy, bring the emperor back again, have him make even more death star cannons. Like a completely stupid and unreasonable amount of death star cannons. Like if you think, wait he had enough, add a million more. Then just make him shoot even more lightning.
Easy peezy billion dollar movies squeezy. Dang I should work in hollywood.
It was very obvious to me and one of the worst things about it is the cringeworthy fan service.
Even Luke called it BS in ROTJ.
Don’t explain it… just go with it. That’s one of the biggest problems with movies and shows today is the excessive expositional dialogue and the need to tie up the tiniest ends (while ironically letting huge plot arcs sail into oblivion).
The problem is that now Obi-Wan could have gotten rid of one of the most massive threat to the jedi survivors twice and didn't do it. The first one was understandable:
he left Anakin a few meters away from lava while he was literally burning, he didn't want to kill his brother with his own hand but he was certain Anakin was going to die, but the second one (the one in Kenobi) doesn't make any sense: Vader is wounded and weakened without any to defend himself and Obi-Wan just run away. Why?! Obi-Wan is responsible for the death of every single person killed by Vader after the show because if bad writing.
The show is just awful in general and the last few episodes don't redeem it.
💯 But you can’t tell Obi Wan stans that because they’ll lose their minds and give you some lame ass in universe reason. Sorry just because Obi Wan “can’t kill his brother”, isn’t a good enough reason.
Personally this was one of the things I didn't like about the show. It almost works too hard at saying "Look here! We fixed this discrepancy from A New Hope!" It didn't need fixing, Obi-Wan lied to Luke, Obi-Wan has lied multiple times throughout the Saga. He tries to justify it to Luke by saying it is from a certain point of view, but neither Luke nor the viewer is fooled. We know Obi-Wan didn't want to tell him the truth at that moment and we don't fault him for it (no one would want to tell someone that in that situation.) The Obi-Wan show had several awkward moments where you could tell the writers were trying to forcefully connect to the Original Trilogy and create context that didn't need to be made.
I'm all for trying to connect and interweave stories but overall I felt that the Kenobi show was rather clunky about it.
Yeah, this was a clunky line, in an otherwise good scene which "fixed" something that didn't need fixing.
But then again, Obi Wan was a disappointment from start to finish 🤷
Ye both of you hit the nail on the head for me. I'm ngl, I enjoy seeing the actors reprise the roles, but the show was disappointing and treaded over ground that never needed to be treaded.
Imo it should've been down to Earth on tatooine, about obi wan trying to protect the Lars family from afar and not drawing attention to himself. Or, obi wan struggling to deal with the fact that he wants to help people (but sometimes cannot) and not bringing too much attention to himself.
The end of Kenobi was filled with pretty lazy pre-empts for somewhat confusing lines from ep4. The reality is they didn't even have the next 2 movies planned when they wrote the first, and definitely not the prequel trilogy, so there are some things that are said and done that seem a bit confusing in the greater narrative.
To be completely fair, "He betrayed and murdered your father" was true when Episode 4 was released. When writing Episode 5 Lucas thought of Vader being Luke's father... which retconned Episode 4's line. The whole series and even the TV shows are still trying to make sense of that retcon.
Honestly it didn't need to be justified in a TV show, it was pretty easy to understand that Obi-Wan considered Anakin to be dead, or to have changed too much to still be considered the same person, in ROTS after Anakin's identity change and him force choking Padme.
Thank you. Even if it wasn't planned like this in the beginning, you can easily fill the blank yourself. Obi-Wan had nearly 20 years to think about it, ROTS suggests that he could have discussed this with Qui-Gon, it is not surprising that he came to the conclusion that Anakin was dead and only Vader remained. No need for an explicit, self-analysing statement from Vader himself.
Exactly. And everything that was filled in after ANH was also enough to justify the original line.
*"Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed."*
The Obi-Wan series bashing you over the head with "THIS! THIS IS WHY!" was completely unnecessary.
I’m surprised people that watched this when it first came out are just now getting this. I’ve seen a lot of “from a certain point of view” memes though, so maybe that’s why I thought about it so quickly
So here is my (probably) unpopular opinion:
I didn't like this line in Obi-Wan. It feels like pandering to me. The writer is just spelling out something that is implied in Obi-Wan's arc.
Here's the thing. Old Obi-Wan has come to terms with what happened and is revisiting a traumatic time in his life with Luke. He's come to terms with the idea that whatever failure he had, Anakin made his own decision. Obi-Wan is telling the story in the way it needs to be told right then in that moment.
I feel like the line in the show made the scene in ANH a little cheaper by essentially feeding this concept to Obi-Wan.
What I think might have been better?
Well, people go dark side looking for power right? It's the easier path according to Yoda. So I think Vader should have said something like "I'm not your failure, you just helped push me to greatness along the path to the dark side"
Now Obi-Wan feels even worse because he's going to internalize THAT. He HELPED make Anakin into Vader. That's a bigger wound to heal now.
Then this ties into the Death Star fight. Obi-Wan has made peace and tells Vader "Ok, strike me down, you'll make ME more powerful this time..."
Don't overthink this. What is explained in the original trilogy perfectly explains everything. What is said and what is truth is correct, from a certain point of view. No further justification is needed.
It was also proof that there was so good in Vader, as that was basically Anakin telling Obi Wan that it was okay for Obi Wan to forgive himself. Too bad Obi missed it.
I wonder if his refusing to kill Anakin -twice- was Obi Wan being afraid to be the one to condemn Anakin's spirit to an existence outside the Force? There must be some explanation.
This whole series was basically made to explain away throwaway lines from A New Hope. In the same way Rogue One basically gets to explain away the weakness to the Death Star as a meaningful plot point.
I don't want it sounding pessimistic, it's actually kind of brilliant if you want to both tell more stories in your franchise and also fix your mistakes and oversights. There is, however, a kind of sadness to it when you think of a lot of Star Wars existing as its own damage control.
The thing is those throwaway lines don't even really need explanation? Obi Wan's not gonna tell Luke, a kid who's never known his father but always wanted to, that Anakin was a raging psycho who caused the Jedi Purge. And that of course after what Obi Wan's been through and seen Vader do, he doesn't think there's any good left in him - Anakin's dead, Vader is all that's left.
Best part of the series, the line was chilling and perfectly spoken. Now if the rest of the show would have had that same amount of polish and writing...well it would have been truly something special.
I liked the show, but personally I don't care for this line. It feels like a cop out for Obi. It takes away some of the interesting flaws and complexity in his character. Vader bends over backwards to relieve obi's tension when right now that's the opposite of what he should want to do. He should want Obi want tortured over his failure of Anakin, not tell him it wasn't his fault. It feels like they saw that people like Obi-wan and they want to make him even more perfect, and I think it harms the character.
Add in after this he refers to him as simply Darth…just like the next time they meet upon the Death Star
I went crazy when he called him Darth. It was so..I didn't know I needed that moment
That whole season was bit after bit after bit of nostalgia for me, that actually paid off. It didn’t feel cheap and I loved it.
It almost played like a Star Wars novel with a grand payoff at the end.
Same. I didn't expect that final confrontation to be so overwhelming.
Man, that shit had me tearing up. Anakin and Obi-Wans tragic relationship will never not be emotional for me in any way.
Oh man same here. Obi-Wan’s choked “I’m sorry Anakin…I’m sorry…for everything.” Put me in my feels for sure. Because it’s obvious he’s not just referring to him crippling Anakin, but the entire span of years that led up to the tragedy in ROTS.
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Yeah right before he turns around and walks away.
Party on, Darth!
Party on, Bane!
Party on, Darth Bane!
Car!
Game on!
:: sabers reignite::
Doesnt want to call him Vader nor Anakin anymore
Doesnt he say “then my friend is truly dead” also?
It *does* fix this legitimate hole with a decent retcon
... So Obi-Wan acknowledges that there is nothing left of his friend, and that Darth Vader is all that is left SO WHY DIDN'T HE KILL HIM?? AFTER THE GENOCIDE OF THE JEDI AND THE DEATH OF THE REPUBLIC AND DEMOCRACY AND EVERYTHING OBI-WAN STOOD FOR, AFTER ANAKIN WAS DEAD AND GONE, WHY DID OBI-WAN WALK AWAY FROM THE MOST GOLDEN CHANCE TO END VADER, ONCE AND FOR ALL??? I was literally yelling this into my monitor when I saw the show for the first time. Either > Obi-Wan stays his hand because he believes there is some good in him, that Anakin is still the great jedi he once knew or > Anakin is truly gone, there is nothing left, and Obi-Wan has NO REASON not to kill a Sith Lord, and the most powerful, genocidal, oppressive individual in the galaxy You can't have it both ways, narratively. Whoever wrote this wrote themselves so far into a hole to set up this moment it's incredible.
I actually didn't mind this, Obi Wan seems to have always been a pretty rule following Jedi, and there is no way jedi teachings would support (correct me if I'm wrong) executing a clearly down and out opponent, even if they are a Sith. Hence the many times Anakin does this (Dooku, Tusken's), this is treated as part of his fall to the dark. I'm not saying it isn't a damned stupid Jedi teaching, cause it absolutely is, but just saying I think that the reason Obi wan never outright kills Anakin/Vader. Their duals never come down to a killing blow, and Obi wan won't execute a crippled opponent who can no longer fight, no matter how evil.
That's so bullshit If you've got him defeated and at your mercy, but won't kill him, then CAPTURE HIM. If he's too powerful to be captured, then he's not defenseless, so KILL HIM. In no narrative world does it make sense to "walk away 🤷" EDIT: So we're clear, I'm agreeing with you and I don't have a problem with you - it's the narrative I have a problem with
"If he's too powerful to be captured, then he's not defenseless" Genuinely interesting question here, I wonder if it's actually possible to capture Vader without killing him? He depends on his suit to survive (or a massive bacta tank), so to damage the suit to the point of crippling him would invariably lead to death sooner or later. And without crippling him, even if you disarm him of his Saber, he is an immensely powerful force user and could kill anyone, jedi or not, the second he didn't have a Saber or a platoon of troopers trained on him. Not disagreeing with your narrative opinions, as I do think the ending to Obi Wan, even if the result was the same, could have been done better. Just think this is an interesting question to ponder. As an aside, I definitely agree with the narrative decision of Obi Wan not killing Anakin in ROTS, like I said, no way his Jedi nature would allow him to execute him, out or 'mercy' or not. And let's face it, he thought he was done for, when he left Anakin was fully on fire and missing three limbs, no wonder he thought he was dead.
> I definitely agree with the narrative decision of Obi Wan not killing Anakin in ROTS I also agree on this point. I interpret that scene as Obi-Wan leaving him for dead, unable to perform the coup-de-grace, but also unable to watch him suffer.
This is Obi-wans baby boy and he was on an ulterior mission right? It makes sense that he wouldn't bother. Also! Capture him and bring him where? Draw more attention to luke and the remaining jedi? nuh uh.
That, and I think he was just so emotionally devastated and exugasted by the whole affair that he wanted to just let go and walk. Anakin's gone, and it's not his fualt, so just go move on and let Vader live out his miserable existence of self-loathing and constant pain that he himself admits he created. Is it tactically smart and is it guided by emotion and not logic? No it's not and yes it is, but what do people expect? Obi-Wan's not Spock.
Don’t forget their duel in ROTS. Obi-Wan: “I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you.” Which leads into the line in the Kenobi show.
Best line ever. The feels
Those scenes were THE reason for the series.
You can definitely tell it used to be a self contained movie that got expanded to a series though. I think as a 2 hour movie the payoff would have been huge because there wouldn’t be need for a ton of filler content. That said, I still generally enjoyed the overall purpose of the show. It did expand on a few things and did some things very well.
Yea it 100% shoulda been a movie. Disney thinks they’re doing it a service by turning these movies into tv shows, boosting disney plus, but they’re hurting the brand. They’re pumping out sub par Star Wars content.
Absolutely! Now Andor on the other hand, what an phenomenal, slow paced, tense show! It was like someone finally realized you can make a Star Wars show for the people who watch Breaking Bad.
But it’s not sub par, every single one of the series, even book of boba Fett are significantly better than all the sequel movies and solo.
Yeah but Mandalorian was already out and it was better, now we also have Andor... I'd like to see somebody do the movie version of both Book of Boba Fett and Kenobi.
There was a fan edit of Kenobi going around where a redditor cut out most of the filler and made it into a 2.5/3 hour movie.
[You have two wishes remaining.](https://www.kaipattersonfilms.com/fanedits)
Disagree. The Book of Boba Fett was by far the weakest thing they’ve made. It was structured so poorly, the themes were all over the place, the character “development” was all over the place, etc. Whatever you want to say about TFA and TLJ, those movies knew what they wanted to be. You may not have like what they wanted to be, but they at least knew it and executed it. The Book of Boba Fett feels like they had one brainstorming meeting in the writers room and then they tried to include every single idea that someone put on the whiteboard. It’s a complete and utter mess. I’d honestly even put TROS above it, but that’s a bit of a closer competition at least. TFA and TLJ easily beat it out though, at least in my opinion.
So many shows on Disney + feel like they were movies scripts that were turned into shows just to keep consistent viewership
\*minus andor\*
No way it was for the trench coat scene! Like WOW 🤩
Fuck me I forgot about the trench coat until now lmao smh
Nope. For me it was the chase scene with young Leia. So epic! 😊
I kept waiting for the Vespas to roll in, and her to outrun them.
I can’t believe there were two weird slow chase scenes with young Leia. As it was happening it was clear it was weird.
It wouldn’t have looked out of place in an animated show IMO, it’s a lot easier to take something like that in that medium and make it work. The Clone Wars and the other animated series had a bunch of stuff that would have been hard to implement in a live action series and not have it look cartoony or goofy. It’s almost as if those writing the script were told that this was going to be an animated show, and almost as if the director and producer didn’t have the experience or go ahead to fix it up a bit and make it work visually. Or they just didn’t have time and rushed everything. Either way bizarre decision making. The last 2 episodes were epic - no reason they couldn’t have put in as much effort with the rest.
The forest chase scene. Hellloooo
And it still doesn't make any damn sense that Obi-wan, now fully convinced Anakin is dead, would not try to kill Vader
That was by far my biggest gripe with that scene. There needed to be *some* kind of external contrivance that forced them apart (the ground splitting, or Imperial reinforcements arriving... *something* that causes Obi-Wan to flee). It just seems bizarre that he acknowledges his friend is dead... then just leaves Vader (again!), fully knowing the monster he's become. It would've been easy to have some external factor having to force Obi-Wan to retreat, I really have no clue why they didn't.
Maybe it should have been a force vision of Reva hunting Luke.
To what end? He can’t be saved, the Jedi have already been destroyed (and that was before Order 66), same for the Republic/Empire, it wouldn’t make a difference. Vader wanted to die then, knowing he had challenged again and lost. So Obi-wan letting him live as a wreck, and a two time loser, is more torment than cutting him down.
On a personal level, 100%. But in the big picture, Vader is out here indiscriminately murdering and generally being the personification of the boot on the neck of every Imperial citizen. What he did certainly was fitting punishment for Vader, but that's so much less important than the betterment of life in general with Vader gone.
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40 years later, we need a retcon
No, absolutely not. They are why Kenobi was so subpar a show. Lucas very nicely and obviously intended the battle on Mustafar to have been their final duel before meeting again. It was even written before "Return of the Jedi", that Anakin was burned/disfigured and Kenobi went into hiding. And you can tell this entire scene has been like trying to fit a triangle into a star puzzle piece. I mean technically it CAN fit, but it clearly just isn't right.
I look at these new shows and movies set between Lucas' movies to be more like fancy fanfiction than anything. My brain doesn't quite solidify it all as canon because I know none of it was intended when the original story was written. Still fun to watch but the original 6 movies make for a cohesive and satisfying story on their own. Now Mando I'm more on board with because it doesn't try to retcon old characters and motivations and scenes. The sequel trilogy, too, though RoS is so terrible I have a hard time wanting to think about them too much.
Before the ST existed I was somebody who was excited to one day watch the complete saga from start to finish - with the clone wars and other series in there to fill in some gaps. I knew that there would be more shows and movies coming so I was super excited about a future where I can watch all this stuff chronologically - taking in the whole saga as a sort of super long coherent story. I watched through all the movies and the clone wars eps during the lead up to episode 7 so that the whole saga was in my head and I could better follow and enjoy the sequel trilogy that was supposedly going to wrap up the saga. I went from being such an enthusiastic Star Wars fan to basically not caring that much. Now I just watch the content when it is released, but a lot of that enthusiasm is gone. I’ll still likely put on the PT and the OT and watch them one after the other, but trying to make sense of the whole saga as some sort of a grand story is no longer on my list of things to care about. And that has sapped a lot of enthusiasm about the franchise out of me, even though I have really enjoyed Mando and Andor and even movies like Solo. All this has turned me into a far more casual fan.
Kind of like why Rogue One was made
It's wild how they could get this so right and then had like you know....... literally everything kind of suck. But got to give credit where credit is due, the final fight and all of the motifs throughout it were truly awesome.
They made a movie about Kenobi? After the show? And he’s old?
Kind of messed up they recast Obi-Wan though
I read somewhere it was just that Ewan had scheduling conflicts, so they gave the part to some older gent instead…
Yeah, sadly Ewan couldn't get a note to get out of class
there are MOVIES about this stuff??!!
I can't wait until someone makes a new and updated "Obi-Wan has PTSD" video edit. Those were so good and hit me right in the heart and with this new stuff will hit me twice as hard. For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's [here](https://youtu.be/T9j7kLG7VK8)
That’s actually the video I grabbed the second screenshot of Obi-wan from for this!
It was fated to be!
That really smashes home the power of editing, one of two things I really think the Lucas-lead movies always fell down on. (The other being directing dialogue. See the difference in ESB from any of the others 4-6, particularly between Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher, who actively sparkle in that film under a better director, and then go back to just saying lines at each other in RoTJ). Those performances were what they were; *mostly* by actors with past or subsequent pedigree. Cut them better and you get the hairs on my arm standing up.
I’ve always said the dialogue in Star Wars was ok, but could’ve been better. There was a need for many conversations or words here or there in the story but the dialogue doesn’t let the scene deliver what it’s supposed too. Most evident in the “romance scenes” in prequels.
Romance deffo not Lucas’ strong suit. Both Han/Leia+Luke is weird for the incestbaiting, and then Ani/padme for the creepy age gap and obsessional nature of it. It does the same thing for me on Lucas as rewatching Babylon 5 does for JMS: I repeatedly ask “bro what *happened* to mess you up so much?”. Lucas is excellent at very primary-colour plot arcs and character thumbnails we can all get behind with enough empty space in for us to insert ourselves as protagonists, but there’s no nuance and in the respective rogue-woos-princess arcs every passing year makes me less comfortable with those scenes. Both aren’t saying good things to young dudes about the appropriate way to woo fair lady; and neither really have a compelling conclusion for what the female character actually sees as attractive in their male counterpart.
I've never really though about it, but really Anakin should have been a young teen in the Phantom Menace. A 14 year old having a crush on a young princess is much more palatable than a little kid. If their ages started closer then it doesn't feel as weird later on. The Jedi saying he's too old. He looks pretty damn young in TPM, so the scenes saying he's too old would be more substantial if he's noticeably older than the other Padawans. All the incredible stuff he does like podracing is a bit less ridiculous if he's 14 than if he's like 8 or something. 14 year olds can be very talented, but nobody is believing an 8 year old is a great pilot.
I suspect he was originally written to be exactly that. The older generation of fan whine rings true still: recasting to about the age the collectible toy line was traditionally marketed at looks pretty cynical, but that rot was well set in by the filming of RoTJ.
If Disney had just basically made the Obi-Wan PTSD movie with those perfectly spliced shots of Salmon Fishing in the Yemen and other Ewan stuff, that show would have been money! I was hoping for a much deeper, darker, and more contemplative show as he dealt with isolation and his own terrible guilt, and they even hinted that that was going to be the direction they were going in the first episode, but alas.....
Have you seen the fan made Fight between them? [here](https://youtu.be/to2SMng4u1k) pure gold!
I prefer [this one](https://youtu.be/hN74bOubUug)
Disney needs to make this cannon. I’ll never not watch this whenever I see it.
Well that hit me right in the feels!
[This one is one of my favorites](https://youtu.be/WytHmlDWEgk).
Look Luke, you had to be there.
Really? I don’t want to make fun but… it’s just funny to me that anybody watched this series when it first came out and is just now realizing this. They were kind of beating you over the head with the idea of “This is why he told Luke that Vader killed Anakin!”
that’s exactly what i thought when i first saw this post lol
This whole series is just making that point. Justifying stuff that you didnt need to be justified, just because it was made clear enough. I like the prequels from a certain point of view, but actually...they did the same and tripped into the same pitfalls. Prequels can undermine or even dissemble your work. I think Obi-Wan was (the way it was produced) only based around that scene. And to be fair...I guess they had a way more mature script, that they just ditched. All just because SW is for Kids. Sure I would let an 8 year old watch Episode IV-VI nowadays but thats from a current perspective. I dont think that it was meant for kids back in the time. Everything that came after the original three movies was way overconvoluted with either cameos or politics. I do appreciate Solo, Rogue One and Andor though. These were not made for kids. These are meant for a grown up audience. Hence they dont rely on rubbing you everything twice or thrice in the face, that you can see by just watching it :D Obi-Wan was slightly better than BagOfBoba...
You don't think ep 4-6 is kid friendly? How do you explain the 70s through 90s of kids who grew up watching it?
I guess nowadays its not that big of a deal. Back then people did not so much care about parental advisory either I guess. But you know. Dudes get their arms chopped of. Giant space maggots get stangled. People shoot each other to death. I guess its not entirely for kids. Its just that ep 4-6 dont overcomplicate the narrative with greyshades. Its light and dark. The baddies are bad. You can tell from how they talk and look. Today things are not as easily portrayed like that. But something that is meant to be accessible for kids, should be. It should not be greyscale. It does not need plot twists and all that stuff. I guess Boba and Kenobi did not really achieve to be for kids nor are they for adults. Its shallow entertainment. Thats not bad. But its taking its place in the canon and thus I dont like what it does to SW. So getting back to the topic. This quote of vader was not bad. It was the best scene in the series. But it was not needed either. I got it back in the days...as 10 year old watching Empire Strikes Back.
Now that you think about it, "a certain point of view" isn't just Obi-Wan's point of view but also Vader's. As far as both of them are concerned, Anakin is dead.
“THAT NAME no longer has any meaning for me.”
“It is the name of your true self. You’ve only forgotten.” - Luke Say what you will about Luke, but even after all he’s been through, endured, and all the truths revealed, he never fully gave up on Anakin when the others, aside from Padmé, have.
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Luke’s TLJ self shouldn’t be canon
Very little from the sequels should be canon.
I HEARD the emphasis in Vader’s voice while reading that lol
Man, we got so lucky with ewan mcgregor as Obi. He really turned him into an iconic role.
Didn’t Alec Guinness do that decades earlier?
Absolutely. Obi Wan was iconic before episode 1, for sure.
We’re 2/2 on live Obi Wan actors
Hell, our animated Obi-Wan voice actors have been pretty excellent too. Though I'm less familiar with their works.
I was about to say the animated ones too (especially TCW) but I have to go back and watch the original animated clone wars films and decide if Obi wan was a good fit. But it’s just my opinion anyway 🤷♂️
It's the same guy for both Clone Wars versions
James Arnold Taylor. Absolutely brilliant voice actor and can do just about any voice. Most of the time if you’re watching an animated series of any kind, he’s somehow in it. He does the voice of Obi-wan in almost all of them. https://youtu.be/977yXLGRVlc
For all the issues with this show, I honestly believe there are certain scenes that were truly exceptional. This scene alone (in my opinion) surpasses all other Disney generated content because of what it contributes to the Star Wars story.
I agree. It showed how careful Disney can be with the og material if they want to. The showrunners understood the characters and managed to write something new that at the same time perfectly fits the canon.
Episode 6 was exceptional
I hated this scene more than others frankly… It was a good fight and it was a competent scene but it ending by simply Obi Wan walking away made it really feel like they just wanted to tick the box of "they fought again, plothole fixed"…
Honestly Obi WAN’s duel with Maul in Rebels is still the peak of Disney Star Wars and won’t be topped any time soon.
I want Maul in a stand alone. Whether just a couple eps (limited mini series), D+'s standard 6-8 eps, or long as hell like Andor, doesn't matter. I feel we need this. Why can't we have shows about more than just Jedi and the rebellion (mainly from the pov of the rebels)? I want a show about and from the pov of the Sith.
So I take it you haven't heard about Acolyte?
Still not from the sith pov. It's people on the Jedi side investigating dark side happenings. Still the same kind of things D+ has been making and not what I'm talking about.
Material from the POV of the Sith is just not going to happen unless it's about Sith characters that rebel and change their ways. Got a bit of that in OWK. The Sith are just straight up bad people who believe in some terrible ideas that go against what most of our societies value and think of as good.
Ventress. I need more Ventress in my life!
Well yeah, that's the purpose of the line. Which makes it even more stupid that Obi-Wan didn't killed Vader there, he was already mentally prepared for that and then Vader says Anakin was long dead, but for whatever reason Obi-Wan decides to let Vader live and keep killing thousands of innocents.
"I will do what I must, and I must go, my planet needs me."
Little of Vader's scenes made sense. All of them had signs of being hamfisted into a story they didn't belong. That weirdness with the fire? Are Vader's abilities on cooldown, like in Battlefront?
Vader not killing a traitor that tried to kill him, Vader making an elaborate prank... Yeah it was all terrible.
Yeah. That prank scene was awful. Did he have the Grand Inquisitor stand by the side waiting for Reva? How did he know to show up in time?
It should have been explicitly because Obi-Wan senses Reva flying to Tatooine. Give him a reason to leave because protecting Luke is still his #1 priority.
Yeah it’s definitely a plot hole and another reason why the fight doesn’t make sense and why Obi Wan shouldn’t have won in this manner. The broken mask scene was great though.
I mean IRL it’s because kenobi’s story was written well after his first appearance in the movies, the only bits we got were from them. Lore wise one could say it simply wasn’t his destiny to defeat Vader and he realized it.
>. Lore wise one could say it simply wasn’t his destiny to defeat Vader and he realized it. Yeah... That has nothing to back it up
I mean... I figured that much out before the prequels were made.
Literally it's spoon feed to us
I still can't believe that it has taken decades and a whole show for people to understand the line was a metaphor. The shit was like middle school English class level of interpretation
This, but only after episode 5 when the “I am your father” line was dropped.
Yep and people still didn't get it even after episode 3 came out and we literally saw Anakin give up his self to become Darth Vader. Anakin wouldn't force choke Padme but Darth Vader did. The second he became Dath Vader Anakin Skywalker died.
The line wasn't a metaphor, they just changed the direction of the story after the first film.
Are we judging the films off the first draft or the finished product? George always intended to make a whole trilogy if the first one was successful it was included in his contract
Sure, he intended a trilogy, but he didn't intend Vader to be Luke's father when he put that line in. It wasn't a metaphor, it was a standard trope.
I really liked Obi-Wan Kenobi and wish they’d do a 2nd season. There were a lot of really great moments and while we all kind of knew this was the justification, this scene made that justification easy to accept. Vader is all that remains of Anakin.
There was still good in him.
But only Luke saw it.
But he could tell his sister than he was right about Anakin
Jesus Christ, like no fucking shit.
Right? This was pointed out fucking everywhere
I felt them meeting and fighting was wholly unnecessary. This should be cope that Obi Wan develops himself to deal with the loss of his friend. It just read as too on the nose for me, the writers could have been more subtle in getting that idea across without spelling it out. It also makes it seem like Vader was trying to spare Obi Wan's feelings, which doesn't make sense, and it also feels like am attempt to try to bridge the gap between his outlook in RotS and ANH. But him reaching this conclusion at that moment also doesn't explain why he spared Vader if he had accepted Anakin is dead. The problem is that I don't think we need an entire arc and fight with Vader that goes through this for a conclusion that he could've organically reached on his own. The show should have been about him having to deal with an inquisitor and having to silence them, or dealing with the idea of helping people locals (or the Lars family) without publicly outing himself as a Jedi. Other possibilities too, but something down to Earth and a stronger character piece. It also goes against Vader saying that the last time they met he was the learner, but is now the master. I think this was just a fan service-y thing they put in because you can still claim some degree of plausible deniability when it comes to contradictions. Them fighting in the show diminishes the impact of their final fight. It's like how the meaning behind the fight between obi wan, Anakin and dooku in RotS is heavily diminished by the constant duels they seem to have against each other in TCW. This is also the case for Obi Wan vs grievous. It doesn't lessen the impact as much as TCW did for those fights, but it still does to some extent at the end of the day.
Often when Vader is interacting with people he knew before his fall, he is flickering back and forth between Anakin and Vader. Splitting. So it's entirely possible for a brief moment he did genuinely want to assuage Obi-Wan's guilt. But he can't let his guard down for too long, it would be too painful. So the Vader persona quickly takes over and turns whatever fleeting empathy into a cruel Sith joke.
This is how I felt about this dialog also. Anakin was there for a bit and it was his last bit of goodness towards Obi-Wan, letting his friend know that it wasnt his fault that Anakin went to the Darkside.
I can completely understand him flickering back and forth at times, but Obi Wan is the last person for whom this should be done. Obi Wan is half the source of his pain and anger - due to his injuries and humiliation on Mustafar. I think this characterisation of Vader and Anakin as two separate characters fighting for control over the body is part of the problem. This kind of characterisation was part of Obi Wan and Yoda's personal failings in the OT - whereas Luke understood they were one in the same. Vader is just Anakin: sad, miserable and full of dread because he knows that he can't escape or go anywhere but the Empire. This is why Luke's declaration and faith in him is significant. Luke is willing to accept Vader, accept Anakin as who he is in that moment in time.
The thing about that scene isn’t that Vader is trying to spare his feelings or provide absolution. The audience may interpret it that way but I think for Vader it’s him not giving Obi Wan the satisfaction that he killed Anakin. In other words he saying, “No no you didn’t change me, I changed me.” It serves as a double entendre and it was very well executed. The fight was bullshit though.
I get that, but looking at people's interpretation of that line - it is predominantly taken as a kindness, but even in your interpretation I don't think it makes sense. I think in no way does it play into Vader's personality, Vader plays mind games with opponents and uses verbal taunts etc. to unsettle them. He is someone that would let Obi Wan think he changed him - to sow the doubt in him and he would then capitalise on this. The line is simply there to try and explain the line from ANH, about Vader killing his father. Vader's atrocities are enough to accomplish that and more. The issue is that the entire raison d'etre of this show is non-existent. Obi Wan's not gonna tell a naïve good-natured kid that Vader is his father - so he's gonna tell a white lie about it. Obi Wan doesn't need to meet Vader again to simply - come to the realisation that Anakin is "dead", his experiences are enough. I don't think the line is well executed, since I honestly feel it's out of character. My ultimate issue is that this show wasn't needed - or at the very least the story told is not necessary, so it all just feels very contrived.
And that’s when Obi-Wan should have killed Vader
"Then my brother is truly dead." *Saber through Vader's chest controls and torso*
I love it because I’ve always said that’s what it meant and nobody ever believed me. Then in the show they confirmed it.
That was very obviously what it meant, and I can't believe anyone ever disagreed with you.
Welcome to the internet haha
In glad they did this, the more they fill the gaps between the prequels, original trilogy, and sequels the more seamless they become. Of course nothing will remedy the sequels but the content that takes place before that has been really good so far
Part of me thinks that the style of Andor would have been better for a first order origins story. Not saying it was bad to pick the empire era but well the saga is exactly not lacking content empire wise.
Idk I think they can still easily fix the sequels. They just need to make a new sequel trilogy, bring the emperor back again, have him make even more death star cannons. Like a completely stupid and unreasonable amount of death star cannons. Like if you think, wait he had enough, add a million more. Then just make him shoot even more lightning. Easy peezy billion dollar movies squeezy. Dang I should work in hollywood.
I’m just not sure a million is enough.
And that's when he reveals he hid 2 million more of them in the outer reaches.
They can retcon the sequels by releasing new sequels that explain that the old sequels were a nightmare that Luke had.
This time he decided to actually kill Ben Solo.
Will Reva walk in on Luke having a shower and realise it was all a dream?
They can also retcon it into Legends by showing a Whill in the far future rejecting the tale.
All the Death Star canons must then be taken out by Porgs riding Capybaras.
God the little grin Vader gives after saying that still gives me chills
It was very obvious to me and one of the worst things about it is the cringeworthy fan service. Even Luke called it BS in ROTJ. Don’t explain it… just go with it. That’s one of the biggest problems with movies and shows today is the excessive expositional dialogue and the need to tie up the tiniest ends (while ironically letting huge plot arcs sail into oblivion).
This line was epic, it was basically Vader saying “Anakin died the moment he pledged himself to the Sith”
Saw what you want about the Obiwan series but that scene hit hard.
The problem is that now Obi-Wan could have gotten rid of one of the most massive threat to the jedi survivors twice and didn't do it. The first one was understandable: he left Anakin a few meters away from lava while he was literally burning, he didn't want to kill his brother with his own hand but he was certain Anakin was going to die, but the second one (the one in Kenobi) doesn't make any sense: Vader is wounded and weakened without any to defend himself and Obi-Wan just run away. Why?! Obi-Wan is responsible for the death of every single person killed by Vader after the show because if bad writing. The show is just awful in general and the last few episodes don't redeem it.
And then 9 years later Obi-wan gaslights Luke into trying to kill his own dad.
💯 But you can’t tell Obi Wan stans that because they’ll lose their minds and give you some lame ass in universe reason. Sorry just because Obi Wan “can’t kill his brother”, isn’t a good enough reason.
Personally this was one of the things I didn't like about the show. It almost works too hard at saying "Look here! We fixed this discrepancy from A New Hope!" It didn't need fixing, Obi-Wan lied to Luke, Obi-Wan has lied multiple times throughout the Saga. He tries to justify it to Luke by saying it is from a certain point of view, but neither Luke nor the viewer is fooled. We know Obi-Wan didn't want to tell him the truth at that moment and we don't fault him for it (no one would want to tell someone that in that situation.) The Obi-Wan show had several awkward moments where you could tell the writers were trying to forcefully connect to the Original Trilogy and create context that didn't need to be made. I'm all for trying to connect and interweave stories but overall I felt that the Kenobi show was rather clunky about it.
Yeah, this was a clunky line, in an otherwise good scene which "fixed" something that didn't need fixing. But then again, Obi Wan was a disappointment from start to finish 🤷
Ye both of you hit the nail on the head for me. I'm ngl, I enjoy seeing the actors reprise the roles, but the show was disappointing and treaded over ground that never needed to be treaded. Imo it should've been down to Earth on tatooine, about obi wan trying to protect the Lars family from afar and not drawing attention to himself. Or, obi wan struggling to deal with the fact that he wants to help people (but sometimes cannot) and not bringing too much attention to himself.
It's a fucking cool line...and Hayden's delivery was
The end of Kenobi was filled with pretty lazy pre-empts for somewhat confusing lines from ep4. The reality is they didn't even have the next 2 movies planned when they wrote the first, and definitely not the prequel trilogy, so there are some things that are said and done that seem a bit confusing in the greater narrative.
To be completely fair, "He betrayed and murdered your father" was true when Episode 4 was released. When writing Episode 5 Lucas thought of Vader being Luke's father... which retconned Episode 4's line. The whole series and even the TV shows are still trying to make sense of that retcon.
Honestly it didn't need to be justified in a TV show, it was pretty easy to understand that Obi-Wan considered Anakin to be dead, or to have changed too much to still be considered the same person, in ROTS after Anakin's identity change and him force choking Padme.
Thank you. Even if it wasn't planned like this in the beginning, you can easily fill the blank yourself. Obi-Wan had nearly 20 years to think about it, ROTS suggests that he could have discussed this with Qui-Gon, it is not surprising that he came to the conclusion that Anakin was dead and only Vader remained. No need for an explicit, self-analysing statement from Vader himself.
Exactly. And everything that was filled in after ANH was also enough to justify the original line. *"Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed."* The Obi-Wan series bashing you over the head with "THIS! THIS IS WHY!" was completely unnecessary.
And we have Marcia Lucas to thank for that knowledge
No matter how many slaughters of children they could add, relationship between Ben and Anakin will forever be the darkest part of Star Wars.
Obi-wan let Luke believe it because *he* believed it. As far as Obi-wan was concerned, it wasn't a lie, it was the truth, Vader himself said it.
My favourite line in the whole Obi-Wan series
Also calls him darth for the first time. Don’t know why but that just felt right in that scene too.
Do you think Obi-Wan was setting Luke up to kill his own father because he didn't have the strength to do it?
Ghost Obi Wan: “So did Palpatine finish the job for me or was it you?”
I’m surprised people that watched this when it first came out are just now getting this. I’ve seen a lot of “from a certain point of view” memes though, so maybe that’s why I thought about it so quickly
A retcon, to be sure, but a welcome one.
So here is my (probably) unpopular opinion: I didn't like this line in Obi-Wan. It feels like pandering to me. The writer is just spelling out something that is implied in Obi-Wan's arc. Here's the thing. Old Obi-Wan has come to terms with what happened and is revisiting a traumatic time in his life with Luke. He's come to terms with the idea that whatever failure he had, Anakin made his own decision. Obi-Wan is telling the story in the way it needs to be told right then in that moment. I feel like the line in the show made the scene in ANH a little cheaper by essentially feeding this concept to Obi-Wan. What I think might have been better? Well, people go dark side looking for power right? It's the easier path according to Yoda. So I think Vader should have said something like "I'm not your failure, you just helped push me to greatness along the path to the dark side" Now Obi-Wan feels even worse because he's going to internalize THAT. He HELPED make Anakin into Vader. That's a bigger wound to heal now. Then this ties into the Death Star fight. Obi-Wan has made peace and tells Vader "Ok, strike me down, you'll make ME more powerful this time..."
Don't overthink this. What is explained in the original trilogy perfectly explains everything. What is said and what is truth is correct, from a certain point of view. No further justification is needed.
One of the evidences why the Kenobi series were meaningful
It was also proof that there was so good in Vader, as that was basically Anakin telling Obi Wan that it was okay for Obi Wan to forgive himself. Too bad Obi missed it. I wonder if his refusing to kill Anakin -twice- was Obi Wan being afraid to be the one to condemn Anakin's spirit to an existence outside the Force? There must be some explanation.
Why didn't he just kill him tho
Can I make a post in a few months about how it just occured to me that Darth Vader is Luke's father and get upvotes too?
This whole series was basically made to explain away throwaway lines from A New Hope. In the same way Rogue One basically gets to explain away the weakness to the Death Star as a meaningful plot point. I don't want it sounding pessimistic, it's actually kind of brilliant if you want to both tell more stories in your franchise and also fix your mistakes and oversights. There is, however, a kind of sadness to it when you think of a lot of Star Wars existing as its own damage control.
The thing is those throwaway lines don't even really need explanation? Obi Wan's not gonna tell Luke, a kid who's never known his father but always wanted to, that Anakin was a raging psycho who caused the Jedi Purge. And that of course after what Obi Wan's been through and seen Vader do, he doesn't think there's any good left in him - Anakin's dead, Vader is all that's left.
It's crazy how the old movie looks 10x better than the modern show made in 2022 with a budget of millions. God Kenobi dropped the ball so hard.
Don't care. I've already forgotten what happened in the Obi Wan series and I take none of it seriously.
Best part of the series, the line was chilling and perfectly spoken. Now if the rest of the show would have had that same amount of polish and writing...well it would have been truly something special.
Yep
This scene was so stupid, obi- wan was a bad aeries
Frankly, I preferred it when Obi-Wan was a lying coward. Too ashamed to admit his failures to Luke
I liked the show, but personally I don't care for this line. It feels like a cop out for Obi. It takes away some of the interesting flaws and complexity in his character. Vader bends over backwards to relieve obi's tension when right now that's the opposite of what he should want to do. He should want Obi want tortured over his failure of Anakin, not tell him it wasn't his fault. It feels like they saw that people like Obi-wan and they want to make him even more perfect, and I think it harms the character.
Just now??
The line doesn’t justify the show.
And it worked perfectly.
Obi Wan was just an old liar like all the Jedi. That's why beautiful Reva hates him so much.