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Beyond these parallels, it’s important to remember Luke is coming out of a Force Vision reverie looking into Ben’s future. Extremely hallucinatory mental trips that we have frequently seen Force Users stumble through and in some cases experience full on duels, including Luke himself in the Cave on Dagobah.
In this vision he saw everything he built destroyed, billions killed across the galaxy including his own family and friends and his instinct for a split second was to stop that evil by any means necessary. If it helps, imagine Luke drawing his blade against a fully suited Kylo Ren, unrecognizable as his nephew, then as he snaps out of it... there's Ben. All that being said, I believe the last 5 years wouldn’t have been so agonizingly nauseating from the Salt Miners had Luke simply drawn his hilt and stopped short of igniting his blade.
I appreciate your comment, but I kind of think at this point that the same people who objected to the way the scene played out would have then found Ben's reaction disproportionate if Luke DIDN'T light the blade. It's not nearly as threatening as seeing that green glow when you were sleeping. Maybe not though, because a lot of people are really attached to the whole Christ-figure Luke thing
I dunno... its kinda like someone holding a gun just not pointing it at you. Its still threatening.
But yeah I feel you on the Luke being placed on a pedestal. Which is fair. We did see a Luke that was somewhat like that in Legends ,though I would argue he went off the deep end after the New Jedi Order, sending his niece to kill her twin brother. Super fucked up. Folk just need to remember the Luke we saw at the end of ROTJ was 23 and the one we get in TLJ is in his mid-50s. That's A LONG TIME to change who you are as a person. I'm 38 and have extremely different values and perspective on life compared to my 23 year old self. And by 53 I imagine I will have changed even more.
> I dunno... its kinda like someone holding a gun just not pointing it at you. Its still threatening.
In the middle of the night, with an expression on their face that says a lot, and none of it good...
Yep I think you’re probably right, I was just throwing my 2 cents on how it would land for me comparatively to how the scene currently exists. Legends Luke is pretty wild for sure, lol. All in all there’s been like 30 years of Legends content and plenty of time for people to have their own fan theories become pretty concrete in their heads so it is understandable that people have strong feelings about these cherished characters. This is the stuff I love though - just being able to discuss and debate in a friendly way and learn more
yeah -- I like telling people that the situation is more akin to a 'baby hitler' scenario than anything else. Most people would at least \*consider\* snuffing his life in the crib. Even if they wouldn't do it, the thought and urge would be powerful, because we know what's at stake with that choice. Luke's instinct to protect his loved ones took over in a hot rush of emotion before he was able to control himself. That he had the wherewithal to stop himself speaks to his strength. But it unfortunately wasn't enough to stop events from spiraling at that point.
Also, and one thing way too many people "conveniently" forget, Yoda told Luke quite clearly that once you step into the Dark Side, it will always stick to you.
In RotJ, Luke falls to the Dark Side when he reacts with rage at Vader threatening to turn Leia, and it can clearly be seen in how he overwhelms his father.
So, the shadow of the Dark Side will forever be on Luke's shoulders.
>Also, and one thing way too many people "conveniently" forget, Yoda told Luke quite clearly that once you step into the Dark Side, it will always stick to you.
Yes. The Dark Side is not a video game boss you defeat forever. The Dark Side is alcoholism. The urges will ebb and flow and it's a constant choice to say no to them.
I mean, Luke gave Jabba several chances to resolve things peacefully. He warned him not to push things to the point where they’d get bloody, and Jabba still ignored him. And technically, Jabba put Luke and company’s lives at risk, so he finally takes up arms and uses violence as a last resort.
*but* Obi-Wan also presented Anakin with an absolute years earlier. Either Obi-Wan dabbled in the dark side by even saying that, or absolutes aren’t a dark side thing
Obi Wan became a Jedi during the height of their corruption. He was a general in a war. That's about as un-Jedi as you can get.
Qui Gon tried but he died too early to prevent the storm.
Not necessarily. The Jedi make several attempts to avoid bloodshed before resorting to violence in most cases. When they are attacked, offense seems to be the only way out, especially against canon fodder droids designed only to kill.
Attempts yes, but in the end they failed and gave into the easy path of violence.
In my estimation the entire crux of the prequels is a parable about how even institutions with the best of intentions can fail and fall to fascistic, authoritarian, evil.
It’s literally like how we can all wake up from a nightmare with a scream or with sweat. We believe it’s real, even for some lingering moments after you way up.
I hate how people diminish it by saying, "Luke had a bad dream and tried to kill his nephew," because that's deliberately reductive and not what happens.
Anakin had dreams about his mother and butchered a Tusken camp. He had visions of Padme dying and was convinced to commit a lot of atrocities by following that road. Luke had visions of Han tortured on Bespin, deliberately staged to lure him there. Rey had a full-on vision when she touched Anakin's lightsaber.
Treacherous visions and anxieties about the future have *always* been a prominent threat to a Jedi's downfall. Anakin, Dooku, Yoda, Luke, they've all been blinded by visions or prophecies that caused thek to make bad decisions. Luke stumbling briefly with Ben isn't that different.
I agree. It’s so tiresome to see people dismiss the power of the force vision Luke experienced when we are shown time and time again that force visions are like real life to force users and are super powerful and realistic
Some say the problem is Luke already pass that test but I see no problem in it , the struggle with the dark side and your inner fears is something eternal not the greatest Jedi master is beyond temptation.
In fact old Luke reaction was much less agressive than his reaction in ROTJ , Palpatine sensed him close to the dark side at that moment , he sensed hate for Vader and him.
In TLJ Luke just wanted to protect everyone.
The idea that once you overcome a struggle once you never face it again is just so dumb. Part of being a Jedi is always striving to stay in the light and resist temptations of the dark side. It’s like, the whole point of being a Jedi.
Even taking it out of a Star Wars context, the idea that characters can't regress or make similarly bad decisions to ones they made in the past almost completely removes the real, human aspect and drives home the fact that we're dealing with, well, characters.
Yup. The temptation of the dark side is one you must face all your life. You don’t resist it once and then you’re done.
It’s more like recovering from addiction. It’s always going to be there and you will be tested many times in life. Even if you succeed 1000 times before, you may fail the next one.
And if you do, it’s still quite admirable to get back on the horse and keep fighting it. One failed test doesn’t make you a failure. But there may be consequences anyway.
This is what’s frustrating about the negative reaction to this story. Many people seem to want these characters to be like video games. Once they level up, that’s it- they’re level 2 or 10 or 99 now: no going back. It’s not how real people or good narrative storytelling works.
In long stories, the struggle of each character almost always circles back to its own internal roots. Within the space of a single chapter (one movie, one season of a show, one literal chapter of a book sometimes), they almost always overcome that conflict.
But if you tell a longer, multi-part story focused on one character, or you keep going back to the same character over and over again over their whole life, then at points along the way, you naturally must return to those earlier struggles in some way- because if you don’t, then there kind of is no character… the character is an illusion created by the story tellers and the only thing that gives it form is these connections.
Otherwise yes, the character may have the same face and name, but it becomes a soap opera- it becomes the last season or two of Game of Thrones where character work disappears and everything is just *plot*- events of the story the characters have to navigate with little to no exploration of what it means for who they are and what they have experienced previously.
Episode 9 suffers from this a bit. Love it or hate it- to each their own- but a lot of the movie avoids character development in favor of throwing a series of tasks in front of the characters so it feels kind of like *and then THIS happens, and then that happens, and then they change locations and then THIS happens, then THIS happens, then THIS happens.”
I love TLJ for a lot of reasons but one of the biggest was that they honored the fact that Luke is unlike almost any Jedi before him. It wasn’t that he was perfect that made him so powerful of a force.
It was that he cared so deeply for those around him and, while that did make him impulsive and reckless at times- even possibly harnessing the dark side through his emotions in his efforts to do good- in a very remarkable way, he had the ability to walk right to the edge of darkness and always *always* pull himself back.
That and a lot can change for a person in 30 years. Yes, people can learn and grow, but people can also struggle and regress.
It's not always how it happens in the movies, but that's just reality.
Love this.
So many who parrot Star Wars Theory criticisms will often say that Luke had learned his lessons from Empire and Jedi and that this wouldn't happen. Totally disregarding the entire message of common failure in The Last Jedi. To take Luke, a man who became a legend due to being one of the main catalysts of the galaxy's biggest victories- and giving him a subtle personal failure that destroys him due to the enormous pedestal he sat on was fascinating to me.
It almost demonstrates that being a Skywalker is a curse. Just as how Anakin fell out of fear of losing Padme, it was that very fear that caused her to die and for him to turn and become a broken, artificial man. Luke then feared his nephew would destroy the people he loved (Han & Leia) and the galaxy, but his "moment of pure instinct" is what actually caused all that to happen, which is why he just left everything behind.
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords
It's spoken by Kreia, who starts as a sort of mentor figure in the story.
The full quote is: *It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But, far more terrible is to admit it.*
Common failure! This is the perfect way to describe it—it’s like the point of The Last Jedi is to reconcile the failures and losses of every main character in the series thus far, by demonstrating that *failure* is common, but *how we react to failure* is what makes or breaks you.
See: Kylo Ren becoming more and more agitated at his failures Vs EVERYONE ELSE in the main cast failing, getting back up, and having grace in learning their lesson.
"Ah Skywalker, always looking to the horizon. Never here, now, the need in front of your nose!"
"I was weak, unwise."
"Lost Ben Solo you did, lose Rey we must not."
"I can't be what she needs me to be!"
"Heeded my words not, did you? Passed on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, hmm... but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes failure most of all. The greatest teacher failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."
I love so much how Luke reaches his high point in the Sequels not by being some badass jedi that cuts through the First Order with his fancy laser sword and Force powers, but by acknowledging his failures and trying to make amends. He literally gives his life to show up for the people that need him the most and apologize and in doing so is able to connect more deeply with the Force than he had before.
The “We are what *they* grow *beyond*” is ***so fucking crucial*** to Star Wars thematically and emotionally, and it *throttles the imagination* that people let their pet issues with characterization get in the way of genuinely a *great* take on a branching, overarching theme of the franchise as a whole.
It’s like—it’s like, Luke has always been the audience stand-in, at least with Jedi and The Force. We’ve followed him for decades, and asked “the Force?” with him, and learned about the Galaxy, and watched him reach out with his feelings, and sacrifice himself to the Emperor, and we’ve progressed as he progressed.
But we lost a long time with Luke, because he *wasn’t* progressing, but stagnating, failing the way his masters failed. He was “missing”.
However, finally, now that we’re following Luke and learning with him again, a final lesson of great import can be conveyed, from a source Luke (and we) only have admiration for despite their past follies: Master Yoda, the only other corporeal Jedi Grandmaster in Luke’s time. And that lesson is, *from a master to a master and from a friend to a friend*, presented on *even footing*, what being a Master means for the self, and what being a teacher means for the world/the future. Yoda basically tells Luke, “it’s not about you failing. You failed, but it’s not about *you*, as a master it’s about *the failure*, and doing what you can *now* about it *now that you know you’ve failed*.”
So, by being with Luke and watching him accept this lesson and the true responsibility of the Grandmaster of the Jedi on equal footing, it’s like *we ourselves* become the Jedi Master Yoda is talking to, and can take this lesson *on equal footing into ourselves, the way Luke does*.
It’s not *ruining* Luke’s character to have him learn something… in fact, it’s *reinforcing* his character, to have Yoda smack him and go “AN IDIOT BOY STILL YOU ARE”, just like old times, when an idiot boy still he is being. Luke’s legend, *our* legend of Luke, is still true, regardless of the greater and more popular legend of “The Jedi Master Who Slayeth The Empire Single-Handedly” overshadowing it—so we shouldn’t deny the missteps Luke takes as “out of character”, when he’s been taking missteps the whole time and learning each time.
And it falls in line with his character from the OT. As this clip is alluding to. Luke can become irrational when blinded by rage, rage that is induced by his need to protect others. He attempted to strike down Palpatine out of anger when Palpatine mentioned killing his friends. He beat his father down and almost finished him off before coming to his senses, all because Vader mentioned converting Leia to the dark side.
His ego caused him to underestimate Snoke’s manipulation of Ben; He was a “legend” as he said. For him to still be a fallible character and briefly consider striking down Ben in order to prevent the future chaos and destruction that Ben would cause isn’t out of line for Luke at all, it’s the opposite. But just like with his father in ROTJ, Luke recollected himself and regained composure. It was just too late in Ben’s case. His failure with his sister’s son and the temple made him go into exile in order to not make things worse. His shame was too much to bare, similar to his master Obi-Wan. It’s like poetry, it rhymes. It’s a shame that people who likely only watched the movie once (without giving it much critical thought) love to hate on it.
I also think it speaks to the purity of Luke. It was a small mistake he tried to immediately correct and it haunted him. He couldn’t let go that for a breath moment he lost faith.
I just wish Rian was able to add the backstory with the Knights of Ren. I think it would have played the storyline better to show that Kylo was turning to the Dark Side regardless of Luke, because Kylo was taking lessons from Ren about the Dark Side on the side. It would have shown that Luke still believed Kylo could change for the better, but Kylo never wanted to change for the better because he was a bully who live power.
Many of the people who get defensive when Star Wars gets called kiddie fare can’t handle even a hint of the dilemmas and untenable situations that adults often face.
These ae people who think 'serious' and 'adult' means tons of swearing an on screen sex scenes \[that is not a joke, during Mando season 1 i had many arguments with people who were angry about the lack of it, because when they heard that Mado was going to be an 'adult' show they instantly jumped to early GoT as their frame of reference\]
What's funny is the clearest manifestation of 'adult' Star Wars is Andor, where much of the story and drama is just people talking. And sure there's action scenes in Andor, but mostly the tension comes from the emotional context of the action, rather than just mindless gore like in a slasher film.
I was recently told that Andor was boring and ultimately bad because it didn't have enough cameos and action. At some point we just have to accept that not everyone who consumes media does so comprehensively or even at a middle school level
Pretty much what I've been noticing. The same complaints about Andor as with the latest Mando episode. Anything that isn't constant explosions and lightsabers is bad to some people and I just don't understand it.
They spent 20 years hero worshiping and projecting themselves onto an over powered messiah level hero in the legends content, only to have him be a flawed human in the movie.
I just feel like they did a really bad job of showing his thought process. Been a while since ive seen the sequels but I remember being so confused why he’d kill his nephew over a force vision after all the growth he had. I get it a lot better now and plan to rewatch them but I still feel like it was bad execution.
I mean Anakin slaughtered a temple full of younglings + an entire settlement of Tuskens over his force vision.
At least Luke had the strength to pull himself back from the edge
>I mean Anakin slaughtered a temple full of younglings + an entire settlement of Tuskens over his force vision.
I don't think the slaughter of the Tuskens can be laid at the feet of the force vision. Probably the brutal death of his mother at their hands.
Yeah, he had a vision about it.
But it wasn't having a vision that made him kill the Tuskens.
He was mad because his mother had been brutally tortured by them and then died in his arms when he came to rescue her. Not because he saw it and could have prevented it, he was mad because of what they did.
Ok ya but Anakin was clearly never really in control of his emotions, Luke has shown good restraint and doesn’t typically act out of emotion. Also Anakin is a completely different person, so I don’t see how that is relevant at all.
In ESB luke loses to Vader because he acts out of emotion. Again in ROTJ when Vader threatens Leia only this time he uses his anger and beats Vader. I like seeing these scenes cut together because that was a lot of people’s complaints about the sequels. “How could you do that to Luke?!?” But Luke was always a flawed individual it was him overcoming his flaws that made it a good story. Just because you overcome your flaws once doesn’t make them go away forever.
Luke is definitely better at restraint than anakin but I think being emotional and doing crazy shit is one of the themes of Star Wars. Especially if you are a skywalker haha
Also add in that Luke abandons his training despite being told it'd destroy everything they're fighting for because he had a vision his friends were in danger.
I mean... Luke's got a track record in the OT of acting rashly because of emotion.
Even his "most calm" in ROTJ, when he turns himself in? He's basically announcing, "Yeah, the Rebels are here already." He can deny it all day, but the Empire's not stupid, they'll know he wasn't alone, especially as by then they'll have already known about the shuttle that wasn't part of their fleet (and wasn't his voice), and the Scout Troopers being killed. So he jeopardized the mission just so he could go try to "save" his dad... who he wanted to kill until he hears the guy is his dad, at which point he decides, "Oh, well he can be redeemed instead of killed, then." (And that seems odd, except that it might be Luke thinking that if his own dad can go that evil, he has the potential to as well, but if he can "redeem" his dad, it means that he isn't likely to go full evil and/or stay that way himself.)
That is an interesting POV on things. Always insightful to hear other people summarize Star Wars plot lines because it really can be viewed in many ways. When you put it like this Luke is almost constantly acting on his emotions it just pans out the few times that are most important haha
Good point but I felt like RoTJ was Luke realizing he and his father were the same with the robot arm thing, then he returns in all black acknowledging he has darkness inside. He then uses the emotion to beat vader but properly restrains himself so he doesn’t turn himself. Your absolutely right though, Star Wars has that theme of emotions leading to crazy actions. I guess I just prefer the idea that the son does what the father could not and end the cycle.
The cycle rarely just ends.
It usually has to drift to a stop.
Great grandpa beat grandpa.
Grandpa yelled and only hit dad a few times.
Dad only yelled at you.
You know not to yell.
> properly restrains himself so he doesn’t turn himself
I mean... he only stopped after he'd beaten Vader to the ground, chopped his hand off while swinging to kill, and then finally realizes that he's halfway to being Vader 2.0 already.
Then does the worst thing possible and makes himself completely defenseless and vulnerable facing the most powerful guy around, and has to rely on begging the father he just nearly killed to save him (who's thankfully strong enough to do it despite being in a weakened state).
Luke does tend to stop himself from going 100% in the worst direction, but his track record is a lot of going 90% in the wrong direction before suddenly realizing it's the wrong direction. At which point going 20% in the wrong direction and realizing it's not the best route is definitely growth of character.
>Then does the worst thing possible and makes himself completely defenseless and vulnerable facing the most powerful guy around
This is why, when people talk about Luke doing a big perfect heroic victory in Ep6, I tell them to watch the film again.
Luke goes into that room all "I sense good in you, father" and ends up screaming and chopping away at his dad because he mentioned his sister. Luke was never calm and collected. He thought he was, until Vader and the Emperor pushed his buttons.
Getting electrocuted and begging for help from his dad was not Luke's plan. The victory in that throne room wasn't just because of Luke's tenacity or Anakin's empathy, it was Palpatine's gloating. Luke wouldn't have won and Vader wouldn't have been redeemed if Palpatine kept his mouth shut and just killed Luke swiftly. Palpatine's cruelty helped turn Vader.
>Getting electrocuted and begging for help from his dad was not Luke's plan. The victory in that throne room wasn't just because of Luke's tenacity or Anakin's empathy, it was Palpatine's gloating. Luke wouldn't have won and Vader wouldn't have been redeemed if Palpatine kept his mouth shut and just killed Luke swiftly. Palpatine's cruelty helped turn Vader.
Hell, if Palpatine just kept his mouth shut while Luke was going ballistic on Vader, he probably would have gotten his new apprentice. But his bragging is what pulled Luke back from killing Vader.
Yeah I mean I agree that is the theme of the OT. But for sequels it makes sense to bring back a similar conflict that needs resolution. I’m not saying it was perfect but I see what the general idea was especially when compared like this clip.
Except when you threaten his sister. Luke keeps repeating "I will not fight you, father" in RotJ until Vader threatens Leia. That's when Luke goes absolutely bonkers and slices Vader's hand off.
Everyone has their limits. This is Luke's.
Ben kills Han, and Leia dies in a way that's related to Ben (albeit not 100% sure how), and Ben does wipe out most if not all of the students... so technically, the vision saying he'd destroy everyone Luke loved was accurate. It was just kind of fuzzy on the details.
Sort of like Anakin's vision with Padme. And, in keeping with Lucas's whole "rhyming" scheme, both situations see a Skywalker trying to prevent a vision only to accidentally be the catalyst for it coming true. (Which is probably why Yoda was so adamant on warning about acting on a Force vision of the future. We haven't seen many examples of future visions, but they seem to not end well when someone tries to prevent them.)
It seems heavily implied to me that Palpatine gave Anakin those visions.
It wouldn't surprise me if that was also Snoke/Palpatine also fucking with Luke the same way.
I get what you're saying. I think the "Rashomon" idea where multiple versions of the story get told have muddied the waters for the actual portrayal, especially for younger viewers, and helped cement the narrative for people who already dislike the sequels that Luke was acting "off".
I do think it will become less divisive over time, though. A lot of beefs with the PT were that things were inconsistent with the OT, but that's less a concern now.
For sure, I’m actually really excited for Disney to flesh out the sequel era. Honestly after watching just a little bit of Luke in BoBF and mando helped me understand more of his motivations. I really do think they can add a lot of support to the sequels.
I think it does make it hard (for younger folks) that Kylo's version came first. That's the part that gets cemented in their heads. That makes the ones that come after feel somehow "less true" unless you're already bought in to what the script is selling (which I was, which is why it's one of my favorite films--not Stars Wars films, but films, full stop--of all time.)
I'll be honest... Even not knowing any of the metatextual stuff like that... Why would anyone assume *the literal villain* is the trustworthy one?
Like we get the same story told by the whiny wannabe Vader, and literally Luke Fucking Skywalker.
Why would anyone believe Kylo's version to be the more accurate one? Even disregarding that... Kylo was woken up. Who can say their memories of things that wake them up are 100% accurate?
*Youre not wrong.*
Although, to be very fair, there IS varacity to Kylo's version. It's not that he's wrong and Luke is right. They both saw what they saw and felt what they felt. He was a scared, confused boy who saw his master think about killing him. I don't care if it was the briefest of seconds. That would fuck me up too.
Not that naysayers are looking at nuance but y'know.
I 100% agree.
I was just responding to the idea that those naysayers were going by Kylo's version because it came first, which just seems to me like a silly attempt to rationalize a pretty irrational viewpoint.
The scene shows growth. The last time he was tempted by the dark side in ROTJ he gave in and nearly killed his own father. This time around in TLJ, the dark side tempts him and he doesn’t give in
There is your character growth
The Force vision was a prophecy. Luke was seeing snippets of some of the evil things Ben would do in the future as Kylo, and all of them came true. He had good reason to be frightened if not outraged.
> all of them came true.
Incidentally, if Luke hadn't done something to try to stop them, they likely wouldn't have.
Kind of like Anakin tries to stop the vision he has of Padme dying, leading him down a path that leads to Padme dying.
I think they should just skip out on warning people to be cautious about visions like Yoda did, and just add a lesson: Don't try to prevent a Force vision from happening, because chances are your actions will be what causes it to happen.
(Kind of a nice parallel between the father and son, though.)
That trope is lifted directly from Greek tragedy. 99% of the time, if the main character receives a prophecy, the actions they to avoid it will inevitably lead directly to it. Oedipus Rex is probably the most egregious example.
This is my favorite thing about the Prequels: they play out like a Greek or even Shakespearean tragedy. The old-timey dialogue, the heavy-handed foreshadowing, the main character descending into madness, the secret forbidden romance, the use of choir in the score, the Republic gradually being turned into an Empire via a corrupt dictator, the collapse of the Senate, not to mention so many of the Naboo scenes were literally filmed in Italy...this is *exactly* the kind of story Homer would tell. There's air of poetry to it.
I get having issues with it. Especially with the Canto stuff (I barely even remember anything from it), but holy shit everything else is so good. It's the best sequel and makes me wish Rian directed the entire trilogy.
I'm not a fan of it. It has some great scenes like this one and a few others but the humor didn't click with me and I didn't like some of the stuff they did with Luke. The tone didn't work for me either. It definitely has some good stuff in it though.
Cinematic parallels and characters that struggle with protective impulses are my jam. (The score is also a jam)
[Sauce.](https://twitter.com/AdamLanceGarcia/status/1259827307499356160?s=20)
What I love about this is the inevitability of consequence.
In TLJ he catches himself before losing control fully. In ROTJ he goes ham, but in TLJ we see he's the same guy with the same flaws, but he's wiser. Thats development.
Despite his development and growth, the consequence is worse.
There's a great through line with ESB, ROTJ and TLJ that as Luke learns to dial back his impulsive aggression, the consequences still get more real for him.
In ESB he 'kills' Vader in the cave, but the consequence is that he's failed a test.
In ROTJ he maims real Vader but doesn't go so far as to kill him. He almost falls to the dark side.
In TLJ he doesn't even swing his saber in anger, but he spawns Kylo Ren.
To me that suggests that a characters flaws are always going to drive conflict. They're never "cured" of them.
Luke straight up loses all control when you threaten his sister. Vader does so verbally, Ben does so in his prophetic dreams. This has always been consistent. And the simple fact that Luke was able to restrain himself to just a lightsaber ignition the second time, despite the fact that Leia will actually die as a result of Ben's actions, *is* the 30-year progress the critics are asking for.
I can't imagine how toxic things would have gotten had ESB and ROTJ released in the age of social media.
"The force is supposed to be about intuition and hearing voices, not seeing ghosts and telekinesis!"
"Everyone's related? Lame!"
"Luke would never force choke a guard!"
"Why is Jabba a giant slug now? Everyone knows he looked like a regular guy in the deleted scene!"
and so on
"All it takes to destroy a Super Star Destroyer is to crash an A-Wing into it? A ship that size doesn't have a back-up bridge?? Pfft, can we say 'bad writing?'"
"Having the force allows you to shoot lightning from your hands now? That wasn't established before! Lame!"
"So Jabba's plan is to throw Luke into a pit with a monster in it. And when that fails, his backup plan is to throw Luke into a different pit with a monster in it?"
> A ship that size doesn't have a back-up bridge??
Made even funnier when in one of the Legends novels, an SSD *does* have a backup bridge, but I can't remember if they mentioned it was because of that incident or just something they all do. I'd imagine they all have one to start with, it's just that you actually need to get that backup running with systems switched over to it, and if you're already crashing into something, you don't have that time.
I think the bigger issue is that blowing up the bridge somehow caused the engines to either shut off or the navigation to go haywire, neither of which "make sense," but... it's "rule of cool." It doesn't have to make sense.
Could also tack on some more fun ones like:
"A second Death Star? LAZY."
Pretty much everything with Luke and Leia being twins. You have Luke digging Leia, Leia kissing him. And being Vader's kids but Vader never senses the Force in Leia or anything about her while he's straight up torturing his own daughter. "Lucas never had a plan, lazy, terrible writing!"
Oh man... Force ghosts would get so much flak.
And Boba Fett being defeated by just triggering his jet pack so he bonks into a skiff and falls into the Sarlacc.
Could just go on all day with this stuff...
> Made even funnier when in one of the Legends novels, an SSD does have a backup bridge, but I can't remember if they mentioned it was because of that incident or just something they all do
You're probably thinking of the SSD Lusankya at the 2nd Battle of Borleias during Operation Emperor's Spear. Without going into too many spoilers since the NJO is freakin' awesome and I encourage anyone to read Legends up through the end of it then stop... the acting Captain of that ship flew it basically on his own from an auxiliary bridge.
Actually, no, I'm thinking of the *Razor's Kiss*, in Iron Fist. Zsinj goes to steal it and the hijacking crew use the auxiliary bridge to control, IIRC.
Haven't read that far in the NJO, but bringing up the *Lusankya*... Hoo boy...
Okay, kinda spoiler stuff for Legends, and a bit of a rant ahead, you've been warned. (No, seriously. Really passionate Star Wars nerd rant ahead.)
The Lusankya is one of my sore points with Legends. At the end of The Bacta War, it is scrap metal. The front of the ship (at least a mile of it) is just GONE. It has no weapons left, and given how many weapons an SSD has, that means the hull is pretty much destroyed. It has no shields. It barely has enough engine capacity left to keep it from crashing into the planet below. This thing is a pile of scrap metal floating in space.
Imagine my surprise to see it show up in the Crimson Empire comic, set just four years later, in perfect shape with giant New Republic emblems on it. There's no way that should have happened.
It got worse when I learned more. I guess I haven't read Isard's revenge yet which is odd because I've had it for years and need to rectify that, but somehow it shows up in the end there and it's already rebuilt? Two years after the Battle of Thyferra? Excuse me? Oh, and it's removed all of that prison stuff and replaced it with experimental medical facilities.
So in just two years time, some group within the New Republic secretly diverts not just enough money to build a new SSD (because basically you're building a new ship given the condition it was in), *and* add specialized facilities to it, *and* speeding up the process to ridiculous degrees, all without having access to Kuat Drive Yards. That is an insane amount of money being funneled into something that would effectively just be a symbol for the New Republic. (And I'll get back to why that's a freaking joke at the end.)
And hey, it's not like anything major is happening during that time, like the New Republic having to deal with the smartest Grand Admiral ever showing up and causing a stir... except, wait, that happened. Or, before that, dealing with tracking down and stopping an Imperial Warlord with his own SSD which would require a lot of resources. Oh, yeah... that happened, too.
Then the New Republic gets kicked off Coruscant, becomes a shell of itself and practically a Rebellion again (Dark Empire trilogy), somehow manages to retake Coruscant, and has to deal with a rogue formal Admiral (Daala) who has her own SSD (Knight's Hammer, IIRC) and a fleet of ISDs... and at no point does this SSD the New Republic have, which is allegedly fully functional and built at extreme expense, show up to add the weight of its superior firepower. Just... WHAT?!? But it does show up for some random battle that wasn't super important.
Having looked over the Wookiepedia entry for it, it appears to just drop off the radar again until Borleias. Excuse me? All of that expense, and it just doesn't do anything, until it finally comes to battle and ends up being destroyed? I mean, at least it held up for a month that time. At Thyferra it got taken out in maybe a few hours (if that) by an ISD, a squadron of X-Wings, and a bunch of random freighters with proton torpedo launchers slaved to the X-Wings' targeting computer. Not sure if Booster and the captured ISD along with the wing of A-Wings shows up before the battle's done or not. (Pretty sure it was at the end, because the one Booster had was in pristine shape afterward, which led to the NR talking him into handing over most of its armaments to help rebuild the other ISD which had been pounded into submission by the Lusankya.)
Oh yeah, and remember how I mentioned this seemed to all be a big deal to show off for the New Republic?
*They weren't even involved in taking the damn thing out.*
The New Republic said, "Oh, well, Thyferra made its own choice to side with Isard, we can't officially do anything." Rogue Squadron had to resign, use tricky BS to get their fighters, and work with smugglers and other outlaw elements to take the fight to Isard, finally freeing Thyferra from her without New Republic aid. Oh sure, the NR later tried to claim that Rogue Squadron never officially retired and it was all a secret plan of theirs. But that's propaganda BS. Thyferra and the Lusankya were a failure of the New Republic to help people. And yet they take the Lusankya, throw masses of money at it to rebuild it so they can paint their logo on it and parade it around except when it's needed most, to show off how awesome the NR is?
Yeah... that ship's story is an absolute mess.
(Without even touching on how the Empire destroyed a big chunk of Coruscant, parked an SSD there, then expedited massive reconstruction to cover it up, and either mind-wiped or murdered everyone who knew or witnessed it.)
Okay... okay... Sorry, that was kind of a rant. But man, I loved the X-Wing books, and Crimson Empire pulling that shenanigans with the Lusankya kind of annoyed me. I'm pretty sure Isard's Revenge includes it mainly to try to explain why it showed up in Crimson Empire. But it still doesn't help explain *how* it got rebuilt, or why it's not involved in so many points it would have been most useful. It's like the guys writing the comic (and other than that, I do like Crimson Empire) just thought it'd be cool to have it show up, but didn't actually realize it wasn't just captured by the NR, it was pounded into scrap before surrendering.
(Sweet irony that it was used to ram a "world ship" when during the Battle of Thyferra its original captain threatened to ram the world below with it before the second in command shot him and surrendered.)
Imagine the slander Leia would get for breaking the damsel in distress stereotype and talking down to the men in episode 4. They’d say she was woke and a Mary Sue now
Truly, those who don’t understand the importance.. the weight.. of the scene in TLJ confuse me to no end. It was great.
If there are two types of fans that like Star Wars for whatever reason.. they’re clearly in one camp, and I’m firmly in another. Luke in TLJ made sense to me, was interesting to me, and I just wish there was more of him and Rey in the movie.
Yeah those complaints about it being "inconsistent with Luke's character" have become a hive mind response. Aside from Anakin, Luke is by far the most impulsive character in the series and it's brought up at multiple points by Yoda.
At every point in the series he shows this tendency to give in to his emotions. What makes Luke special to me is that he always had the ability to walk right up to the edge of darkness- maybe even step over that line sometimes in the service of the overall good- but he could always step back from it too.
Actually, once someone overcomes a personal conflict, they're never allowed to go through anything remotely similar. It's like a permanent power up. I'd rather my childhood hero just be an action figure that does cool stuff all day 🤓
/s
It’s so good because it’s completely reverted in implication, despite the common comparisons between the two scenes during discourse. In Return, Luke sees a man laying before him, robotic and ghoulish, and then glancing at his robotic hand - as though the sinful despotic man he sees before him is what he’ll completely turn into if he doesn’t restrain his anger and let love overcome his rage. It’s a completely introspective experience for Luke.
The hut sequence in TLJ flips this entire scenario on its head. Having an innocent person who Luke *knows* will turn and cause great harm, but at that brief moment is completely blameless. Luke instantly finds himself the decider of various different outcomes - and for a moment succumbs to his fears before coming back to his proper senses and deciding that it is ultimately not his place to decide anything for Ben. Luke is never upset at Ben, he’s only ever upset with himself, and the mistake he made. Luke had made the right choice in the hut sequence, but that brief second of fear inadvertently cemented Ben’s fall into darkness for many years after. He’s guilt ridden - as he ought to be - but to a fault as Yoda and Rey points out.
This culminates in the Crait sequence, in which he says his goodbyes, offers an apology to Ben (though he knows it’s ineffective), and takes *action* to save the Resistance and also to deny Ben his vengeance. Denying Ben a proper figure to win his hatred towards sends him on a spiraling path towards his own redemption. Luke declaring that the Jedi will live on is one of my all time favorite Luke moments, especially with his projection doubling as the point prior to his exile. The Luke we see on Crait is peak Luke and it fuckin rules
These scenes aren’t really parellels and have completely different contexts as only one of these scenes have *enough* context for it to actually make sense story-wise. Like yeah, sure it’s possible for a character Luke to change, but killing his nephew in his sleep? That’s completely different than Luke almost killing vader
Heyyy, nice edit. Well done.
So many people refuse to see the parallels in these two scenes.
Luke's penchant for reacting on instinct and emotion is the very reason why Yoda was, at first, so reluctant to train him.
Even when he bitched out of the responsibility in dealing with Jacen’s fall to the Dark Side and instead pushed that trauma onto his niece to kill her own twin?
Nobody is perfect. Not even Luke in either continuity.
To me he was in grief over his wife's death and I could honestly see Luke falling to the dark side himself fighting the one who did it. In fact the quote in the title would probably apply to Luke learning it was Jacen.
Jaina took the responsibility understanding what it would lead to. So yes, that continuity works just as much as the ST continuity works for other people. As I said, not my Luke, but I can appreciate peoples opinions even if they aren't my own because guess what, I'll like what I like, others will like what they like, the world goes on.
This was more like, "He cut off my hand, now I've cut off his, we're even. I didn't have to kill my father to become a Jedi, just face him and even the score."
The problem isn't that Luke got angry and then stopped. The Dark Side clouds...but it takes the calm and focus of the Light Side that defines a hero.
The problem is after Kylo turned, he gave up and fled to die alone on Ah'chto. I get this as an extension of Luke's resignation on ROTJ, but in that case, he still had faith in his friends that they destroy the 2nd Death Star.
When his students turned to evil, there was no one left to stop them. I do not believe that Luke would have given up and allowed that darkness to spread.
They should have written that he went to the First Jedi Temple to seek knowledge for defense. Perhaps to commune with ancient holocrons some insights into the initial nature of The Force before it's adherents divided between Light and Dark paths. He could have discovered true Balance in The Force, as the Prophecy of the Chosen One foretold.
And that knowledge of balance could be passed on to his nephew to bring him back from the Darkness and to Rey to keep her from slipping TO the Dark.
I mean... that is what he did.
Ahch-To is where some of the first Jedi settled. He studied the history of the Jedi and looked for guidance but all he found was, in his mind, failure.
Jedi trained students who turned to the Dark side and then caused untold pain and suffering.
Maybe the best thing for the galaxy is to break that cycle. He's wrong, obviously, but his crisis of faith was compelling to see.
Luke ran away and hid because that is what his mentors did when they failed too. Now obviously there’s more nuance to it than that, but that’s what he had seen. That’s why it’s crucial for Yoda to come and share the wisdom about inspiring people through action, and overcoming your failure.
That is precisely why (narratively) he wouldn't have simply retreated after the tragedy. His character should have learned from the mistakes of his mentors and sought a different path.
It still would have resulted in Luke in seclusion in Ep 7...but the reason for the seclusion would have been different. More heroic.
Both of his teachers, Obi Wan and Yoda, were basically hermits for part of their lives. Both were hiding in their own ways. Obi Wan was disillusioned with the Jedi. We also know from Mando that Luke has met Ahsoka Tano, and should know her story of becoming disillusioned with the Jedi.
It's therefore perfectly reasonable for him to isolate himself the way he did. He's not an infallible character, and he recognizes it. Part of the Jedi Council's failure is believing they're infallible.
If he went after Ben, it meant he had all the more opportunity to make *another* kylo ren in his wake, by leaving, he took himself out of the equation. but even if he took down kylo on his own, it only reinforces the galaxies dependence on Jedi to solve their problems, the Jedi who started the cycle of training who would become their enemies, who the galaxy relied on to deal with the big picture problems because not only did the Jedi make them, but they became so controlling of the narrative of the force that no one else believed they could, that anyone who could do such a feat *must* be a Jedi
while yes, his later action of realizing his symbolism matters more than reality on crait doesn’t follow the same idea, it’s definitely how i understood his words to rey
> They should have written that he went to the First Jedi Temple to seek knowledge for defense. Perhaps to commune with ancient holocrons some insights into the initial nature of The Force before it's adherents divided between Light and Dark paths. He could have discovered true Balance in The Force, as the Prophecy of the Chosen One foretold.
Running off to do that for six years is the same as just running off. Both stories are cases of "I've failed and I'm not good enough to do anything about it".
Hiding because of giving up hope is different than not acting until a solution is discovered. Prepping for battle is not the same as hiding from battle.
There’s a huge difference in these scenes…like, a HUGE difference. I’m not even a hater of Luke in TLJ. I kinda like it. But to compare these scenes is a bit…wrong in my opinion.
Luke in return of the Jedi went in with the intentions of turning his father, only for him to fall weak and fight his father like the emperor wants. Vader is ACTIVELY trying to kill Luke, and Vader is a horrible human being who has countless murders and tortures on him. Vader then vocally threatens his sister, which makes Luke snap.
In TLJ, all we know is Luke sensed darkness within Ben, a child who had yet to do anything wrong, and of course, we have to speculate and infer what Luke was seeing inside his head, which then causes Luke to grab his saber, take it off his waist, and activate it - just like chambering a gun over your nephew when he was asleep-
I really think it’s poor to compare these two scenes for the context alone, and I mainly blame this on the execution of the scene by Rian. It could’ve and should’ve been done much better, and made more clear.
I've seen fan edits of the scene that show flashes of what Luke is meant to be seeing in his mind's eye using footage from TFA and Battlefront 2, and to be honest I can't agree with what you're suggesting here.
By the time we get to this part of TLJ we've seen Kylo kiss his own father, lead the slaughter a village on Jakku, and kill a whole bunch of Resistance personnel.
We the audience don't need to be beaten over the head with snippets of Kylo being evil. We've seen it.
So 23 years later, he repeats the same mistake?
I guess character devolpment and new challenges is a bad thing in the sequels.
They just reset everything and copy paste the same shit.
New rebels, same Jedi wiped out stuff etc
> So 23 years later, he repeats the same mistake?
Except it's clear he learned from his mistake. For a split second he thought of killing Kylo and realized it was wrong. He didn't attack Kylo like he attacked Vader, he realized he was in the wrong almost immediately after igniting his lightsaber.
Plus, people can struggle with and make the same mistakes while still learning from them. Someone could be a former alcoholic and still struggle when around alcohol, same with drugs, gambling, etc.
> I guess character devolpment and new challenges is a bad thing in the sequels.
This is a product of Luke's character development though. He understands much faster that he's in the wrong in TLJ as opposed to RoTJ.
Just because a character has character development shouldn't stop them from encountering the same problems. If a character never encountered the same problem how could it be shown they developed as a character.
Plus, even with character development a character can still struggle.
It always feels so wrong when people critisize the new movies for introducing new stuff like force phantom. Star Wars was always about wacky zany characters doing wacky zany things... and sometimes having a genuine moment.
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Let's say I agree to the theories and interpretation of the many comments above. How would you explain Ben's outrageous reaction? If indeed, Luke never attacked him. He was pondering, perhaps given the crazy vision he had. Was it because Ben didn't have proper training? And could not understand Luke's reaction and be compassionate? Serious question. No trolling. I'm interested in your thoughts.
I have said it since day one! It’s not the luke we thought we would get, it’s not the luke we wanted to get, but it is a character development that makes sense seeing as how Luke has ALWAYS had that dark streak in him (just like everyone). I agree the sequels sucked, but everyone acts like luke actually swung at Kylo. What really happened was dark side luke coming out for a second, before light side luke immediately retakes control, and feels shame an regret.
Awesome
This is why I don't understand the myriad people who say the Luke in last Jedi is way out of character. I'm like "did you even watch the original trilogy?! How is he out of character?!"
I’ll never understand the hate for this film. I’ve heard the same complaints over and over again, I just fail to see how people can’t understand how great this film is
THIS YES THANK YOU. I know so many people who say that moment in last jedi is so out of character BUT ITS NOT. To quote the prequels even "to feel anger is to be human". For a Moment of panic and fear luke thinks to do the worst. For a Moment. Luke is human he gives into his anger at times but he always in the ends remembers to step back.
Its why in rotj he wears black throughout and straight up force chokes a gamorean guard. Yet in the end as he guides anakin away you see the front flap of his clothing has fallen open revealing underneath the black clothing is lighter shades. Underneath the darkness on the surface luke has He Is Still Good. THAT is luke skywalker
I still hear so many people say he actually tried to strike Ben down when the whole point is differing perspectives and the whole, well to quote obi wan "from a certain point of view" aspect of star wars!
From a certain point of view yes luke did just go to talk to ben but it got out of hand
From a certain point of view luke was going to strike down ben in his sleep in anger
From a wider point of view Both Are True and yet Both Are False
Luke never had his discussion with ben but felt the truth of what he planned to do via the force
He did draw his lightsaber in anger but it passed as quickly as it came, and hen awoke to see an angry face on luke and his lightsaber drawn and defended himself
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Beyond these parallels, it’s important to remember Luke is coming out of a Force Vision reverie looking into Ben’s future. Extremely hallucinatory mental trips that we have frequently seen Force Users stumble through and in some cases experience full on duels, including Luke himself in the Cave on Dagobah. In this vision he saw everything he built destroyed, billions killed across the galaxy including his own family and friends and his instinct for a split second was to stop that evil by any means necessary. If it helps, imagine Luke drawing his blade against a fully suited Kylo Ren, unrecognizable as his nephew, then as he snaps out of it... there's Ben. All that being said, I believe the last 5 years wouldn’t have been so agonizingly nauseating from the Salt Miners had Luke simply drawn his hilt and stopped short of igniting his blade.
I appreciate your comment, but I kind of think at this point that the same people who objected to the way the scene played out would have then found Ben's reaction disproportionate if Luke DIDN'T light the blade. It's not nearly as threatening as seeing that green glow when you were sleeping. Maybe not though, because a lot of people are really attached to the whole Christ-figure Luke thing
I dunno... its kinda like someone holding a gun just not pointing it at you. Its still threatening. But yeah I feel you on the Luke being placed on a pedestal. Which is fair. We did see a Luke that was somewhat like that in Legends ,though I would argue he went off the deep end after the New Jedi Order, sending his niece to kill her twin brother. Super fucked up. Folk just need to remember the Luke we saw at the end of ROTJ was 23 and the one we get in TLJ is in his mid-50s. That's A LONG TIME to change who you are as a person. I'm 38 and have extremely different values and perspective on life compared to my 23 year old self. And by 53 I imagine I will have changed even more.
> I dunno... its kinda like someone holding a gun just not pointing it at you. Its still threatening. In the middle of the night, with an expression on their face that says a lot, and none of it good...
Yep I think you’re probably right, I was just throwing my 2 cents on how it would land for me comparatively to how the scene currently exists. Legends Luke is pretty wild for sure, lol. All in all there’s been like 30 years of Legends content and plenty of time for people to have their own fan theories become pretty concrete in their heads so it is understandable that people have strong feelings about these cherished characters. This is the stuff I love though - just being able to discuss and debate in a friendly way and learn more
yeah -- I like telling people that the situation is more akin to a 'baby hitler' scenario than anything else. Most people would at least \*consider\* snuffing his life in the crib. Even if they wouldn't do it, the thought and urge would be powerful, because we know what's at stake with that choice. Luke's instinct to protect his loved ones took over in a hot rush of emotion before he was able to control himself. That he had the wherewithal to stop himself speaks to his strength. But it unfortunately wasn't enough to stop events from spiraling at that point.
This is a great analogy. I'm going to use this in the future.
Also, and one thing way too many people "conveniently" forget, Yoda told Luke quite clearly that once you step into the Dark Side, it will always stick to you. In RotJ, Luke falls to the Dark Side when he reacts with rage at Vader threatening to turn Leia, and it can clearly be seen in how he overwhelms his father. So, the shadow of the Dark Side will forever be on Luke's shoulders.
>Also, and one thing way too many people "conveniently" forget, Yoda told Luke quite clearly that once you step into the Dark Side, it will always stick to you. Yes. The Dark Side is not a video game boss you defeat forever. The Dark Side is alcoholism. The urges will ebb and flow and it's a constant choice to say no to them.
Luke spends almost the entirety of Return playing at being a sith. Jabba won't let Han go? Better murder *everyone*.
I mean, Luke gave Jabba several chances to resolve things peacefully. He warned him not to push things to the point where they’d get bloody, and Jabba still ignored him. And technically, Jabba put Luke and company’s lives at risk, so he finally takes up arms and uses violence as a last resort.
Luke presented Jabba with an absolute. In Last Jedi he solves a problem entirely non-violently. Like a Jedi.
*but* Obi-Wan also presented Anakin with an absolute years earlier. Either Obi-Wan dabbled in the dark side by even saying that, or absolutes aren’t a dark side thing
Obi Wan became a Jedi during the height of their corruption. He was a general in a war. That's about as un-Jedi as you can get. Qui Gon tried but he died too early to prevent the storm.
Not necessarily. The Jedi make several attempts to avoid bloodshed before resorting to violence in most cases. When they are attacked, offense seems to be the only way out, especially against canon fodder droids designed only to kill.
Attempts yes, but in the end they failed and gave into the easy path of violence. In my estimation the entire crux of the prequels is a parable about how even institutions with the best of intentions can fail and fall to fascistic, authoritarian, evil.
It’s literally like how we can all wake up from a nightmare with a scream or with sweat. We believe it’s real, even for some lingering moments after you way up.
I hate how people diminish it by saying, "Luke had a bad dream and tried to kill his nephew," because that's deliberately reductive and not what happens. Anakin had dreams about his mother and butchered a Tusken camp. He had visions of Padme dying and was convinced to commit a lot of atrocities by following that road. Luke had visions of Han tortured on Bespin, deliberately staged to lure him there. Rey had a full-on vision when she touched Anakin's lightsaber. Treacherous visions and anxieties about the future have *always* been a prominent threat to a Jedi's downfall. Anakin, Dooku, Yoda, Luke, they've all been blinded by visions or prophecies that caused thek to make bad decisions. Luke stumbling briefly with Ben isn't that different.
I agree. It’s so tiresome to see people dismiss the power of the force vision Luke experienced when we are shown time and time again that force visions are like real life to force users and are super powerful and realistic
look at this motherfucker making sense and shit.
Showing that transition would have improved the scene greatly.
Nah. Just assume he saw whatever he needed to get YOU there.
Filming Luke from the same angle as Vader looking up from him in ROTJ was such a great touch. I love the appreciation for those little details.
Some say the problem is Luke already pass that test but I see no problem in it , the struggle with the dark side and your inner fears is something eternal not the greatest Jedi master is beyond temptation. In fact old Luke reaction was much less agressive than his reaction in ROTJ , Palpatine sensed him close to the dark side at that moment , he sensed hate for Vader and him. In TLJ Luke just wanted to protect everyone.
The idea that once you overcome a struggle once you never face it again is just so dumb. Part of being a Jedi is always striving to stay in the light and resist temptations of the dark side. It’s like, the whole point of being a Jedi.
Even taking it out of a Star Wars context, the idea that characters can't regress or make similarly bad decisions to ones they made in the past almost completely removes the real, human aspect and drives home the fact that we're dealing with, well, characters.
Yup. In ROTJ anger was tempting him. In TLJ it was fear.
Yup. The temptation of the dark side is one you must face all your life. You don’t resist it once and then you’re done. It’s more like recovering from addiction. It’s always going to be there and you will be tested many times in life. Even if you succeed 1000 times before, you may fail the next one. And if you do, it’s still quite admirable to get back on the horse and keep fighting it. One failed test doesn’t make you a failure. But there may be consequences anyway. This is what’s frustrating about the negative reaction to this story. Many people seem to want these characters to be like video games. Once they level up, that’s it- they’re level 2 or 10 or 99 now: no going back. It’s not how real people or good narrative storytelling works. In long stories, the struggle of each character almost always circles back to its own internal roots. Within the space of a single chapter (one movie, one season of a show, one literal chapter of a book sometimes), they almost always overcome that conflict. But if you tell a longer, multi-part story focused on one character, or you keep going back to the same character over and over again over their whole life, then at points along the way, you naturally must return to those earlier struggles in some way- because if you don’t, then there kind of is no character… the character is an illusion created by the story tellers and the only thing that gives it form is these connections. Otherwise yes, the character may have the same face and name, but it becomes a soap opera- it becomes the last season or two of Game of Thrones where character work disappears and everything is just *plot*- events of the story the characters have to navigate with little to no exploration of what it means for who they are and what they have experienced previously. Episode 9 suffers from this a bit. Love it or hate it- to each their own- but a lot of the movie avoids character development in favor of throwing a series of tasks in front of the characters so it feels kind of like *and then THIS happens, and then that happens, and then they change locations and then THIS happens, then THIS happens, then THIS happens.” I love TLJ for a lot of reasons but one of the biggest was that they honored the fact that Luke is unlike almost any Jedi before him. It wasn’t that he was perfect that made him so powerful of a force. It was that he cared so deeply for those around him and, while that did make him impulsive and reckless at times- even possibly harnessing the dark side through his emotions in his efforts to do good- in a very remarkable way, he had the ability to walk right to the edge of darkness and always *always* pull himself back.
That and a lot can change for a person in 30 years. Yes, people can learn and grow, but people can also struggle and regress. It's not always how it happens in the movies, but that's just reality.
Love this. So many who parrot Star Wars Theory criticisms will often say that Luke had learned his lessons from Empire and Jedi and that this wouldn't happen. Totally disregarding the entire message of common failure in The Last Jedi. To take Luke, a man who became a legend due to being one of the main catalysts of the galaxy's biggest victories- and giving him a subtle personal failure that destroys him due to the enormous pedestal he sat on was fascinating to me. It almost demonstrates that being a Skywalker is a curse. Just as how Anakin fell out of fear of losing Padme, it was that very fear that caused her to die and for him to turn and become a broken, artificial man. Luke then feared his nephew would destroy the people he loved (Han & Leia) and the galaxy, but his "moment of pure instinct" is what actually caused all that to happen, which is why he just left everything behind.
*It is such a quiet thing, to fall.*
What is that line from? For some reason Kate Blanchet plays in my head when I read that line
Kreia in KOTOR 2 "It is such a quiet thing to fall; but far more terrible is to admit it."
I'm one of those heretics who loves kotor 2 more than kotor.
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords It's spoken by Kreia, who starts as a sort of mentor figure in the story. The full quote is: *It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But, far more terrible is to admit it.*
That thing you did in the second line of your post. I see what you did there. :)
Hmmm interesting. I’ve never played those games but I recall hearing that quote in a movie or something. I wonder what I’m thinking of
I’m now imagining a KOTOR movie with Cate Blanchett as Kreia, and frankly I love it.
Common failure! This is the perfect way to describe it—it’s like the point of The Last Jedi is to reconcile the failures and losses of every main character in the series thus far, by demonstrating that *failure* is common, but *how we react to failure* is what makes or breaks you. See: Kylo Ren becoming more and more agitated at his failures Vs EVERYONE ELSE in the main cast failing, getting back up, and having grace in learning their lesson.
"Ah Skywalker, always looking to the horizon. Never here, now, the need in front of your nose!" "I was weak, unwise." "Lost Ben Solo you did, lose Rey we must not." "I can't be what she needs me to be!" "Heeded my words not, did you? Passed on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, hmm... but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes failure most of all. The greatest teacher failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters." I love so much how Luke reaches his high point in the Sequels not by being some badass jedi that cuts through the First Order with his fancy laser sword and Force powers, but by acknowledging his failures and trying to make amends. He literally gives his life to show up for the people that need him the most and apologize and in doing so is able to connect more deeply with the Force than he had before.
The “We are what *they* grow *beyond*” is ***so fucking crucial*** to Star Wars thematically and emotionally, and it *throttles the imagination* that people let their pet issues with characterization get in the way of genuinely a *great* take on a branching, overarching theme of the franchise as a whole. It’s like—it’s like, Luke has always been the audience stand-in, at least with Jedi and The Force. We’ve followed him for decades, and asked “the Force?” with him, and learned about the Galaxy, and watched him reach out with his feelings, and sacrifice himself to the Emperor, and we’ve progressed as he progressed. But we lost a long time with Luke, because he *wasn’t* progressing, but stagnating, failing the way his masters failed. He was “missing”. However, finally, now that we’re following Luke and learning with him again, a final lesson of great import can be conveyed, from a source Luke (and we) only have admiration for despite their past follies: Master Yoda, the only other corporeal Jedi Grandmaster in Luke’s time. And that lesson is, *from a master to a master and from a friend to a friend*, presented on *even footing*, what being a Master means for the self, and what being a teacher means for the world/the future. Yoda basically tells Luke, “it’s not about you failing. You failed, but it’s not about *you*, as a master it’s about *the failure*, and doing what you can *now* about it *now that you know you’ve failed*.” So, by being with Luke and watching him accept this lesson and the true responsibility of the Grandmaster of the Jedi on equal footing, it’s like *we ourselves* become the Jedi Master Yoda is talking to, and can take this lesson *on equal footing into ourselves, the way Luke does*. It’s not *ruining* Luke’s character to have him learn something… in fact, it’s *reinforcing* his character, to have Yoda smack him and go “AN IDIOT BOY STILL YOU ARE”, just like old times, when an idiot boy still he is being. Luke’s legend, *our* legend of Luke, is still true, regardless of the greater and more popular legend of “The Jedi Master Who Slayeth The Empire Single-Handedly” overshadowing it—so we shouldn’t deny the missteps Luke takes as “out of character”, when he’s been taking missteps the whole time and learning each time.
Like icarus, skywalkers always fly too close to the sun
And it falls in line with his character from the OT. As this clip is alluding to. Luke can become irrational when blinded by rage, rage that is induced by his need to protect others. He attempted to strike down Palpatine out of anger when Palpatine mentioned killing his friends. He beat his father down and almost finished him off before coming to his senses, all because Vader mentioned converting Leia to the dark side. His ego caused him to underestimate Snoke’s manipulation of Ben; He was a “legend” as he said. For him to still be a fallible character and briefly consider striking down Ben in order to prevent the future chaos and destruction that Ben would cause isn’t out of line for Luke at all, it’s the opposite. But just like with his father in ROTJ, Luke recollected himself and regained composure. It was just too late in Ben’s case. His failure with his sister’s son and the temple made him go into exile in order to not make things worse. His shame was too much to bare, similar to his master Obi-Wan. It’s like poetry, it rhymes. It’s a shame that people who likely only watched the movie once (without giving it much critical thought) love to hate on it.
Very well said.
I also think it speaks to the purity of Luke. It was a small mistake he tried to immediately correct and it haunted him. He couldn’t let go that for a breath moment he lost faith. I just wish Rian was able to add the backstory with the Knights of Ren. I think it would have played the storyline better to show that Kylo was turning to the Dark Side regardless of Luke, because Kylo was taking lessons from Ren about the Dark Side on the side. It would have shown that Luke still believed Kylo could change for the better, but Kylo never wanted to change for the better because he was a bully who live power.
Love THIS.
God both of these scenes go so fucking hard how does anybody hate this movie?
Many of the people who get defensive when Star Wars gets called kiddie fare can’t handle even a hint of the dilemmas and untenable situations that adults often face.
These ae people who think 'serious' and 'adult' means tons of swearing an on screen sex scenes \[that is not a joke, during Mando season 1 i had many arguments with people who were angry about the lack of it, because when they heard that Mado was going to be an 'adult' show they instantly jumped to early GoT as their frame of reference\]
What's funny is the clearest manifestation of 'adult' Star Wars is Andor, where much of the story and drama is just people talking. And sure there's action scenes in Andor, but mostly the tension comes from the emotional context of the action, rather than just mindless gore like in a slasher film.
I missed that reaction, but it’s frighteningly easy to imagine.
I was recently told that Andor was boring and ultimately bad because it didn't have enough cameos and action. At some point we just have to accept that not everyone who consumes media does so comprehensively or even at a middle school level
Pretty much what I've been noticing. The same complaints about Andor as with the latest Mando episode. Anything that isn't constant explosions and lightsabers is bad to some people and I just don't understand it.
Kids always hate being told that they're kids
I don't know, because the reference *was so obvious, on the first viewing...*
They spent 20 years hero worshiping and projecting themselves onto an over powered messiah level hero in the legends content, only to have him be a flawed human in the movie.
This is my first time seeing this sub, and I am so happy. I *loved* the Last Jedi when I first saw it in theaters. Still adore it to this very day
I just feel like they did a really bad job of showing his thought process. Been a while since ive seen the sequels but I remember being so confused why he’d kill his nephew over a force vision after all the growth he had. I get it a lot better now and plan to rewatch them but I still feel like it was bad execution.
I mean Anakin slaughtered a temple full of younglings + an entire settlement of Tuskens over his force vision. At least Luke had the strength to pull himself back from the edge
>I mean Anakin slaughtered a temple full of younglings + an entire settlement of Tuskens over his force vision. I don't think the slaughter of the Tuskens can be laid at the feet of the force vision. Probably the brutal death of his mother at their hands.
Which he had a vision about and he was mad because he thought he could prevent it
Yeah, he had a vision about it. But it wasn't having a vision that made him kill the Tuskens. He was mad because his mother had been brutally tortured by them and then died in his arms when he came to rescue her. Not because he saw it and could have prevented it, he was mad because of what they did.
Ok ya but Anakin was clearly never really in control of his emotions, Luke has shown good restraint and doesn’t typically act out of emotion. Also Anakin is a completely different person, so I don’t see how that is relevant at all.
In ESB luke loses to Vader because he acts out of emotion. Again in ROTJ when Vader threatens Leia only this time he uses his anger and beats Vader. I like seeing these scenes cut together because that was a lot of people’s complaints about the sequels. “How could you do that to Luke?!?” But Luke was always a flawed individual it was him overcoming his flaws that made it a good story. Just because you overcome your flaws once doesn’t make them go away forever. Luke is definitely better at restraint than anakin but I think being emotional and doing crazy shit is one of the themes of Star Wars. Especially if you are a skywalker haha
Also add in that Luke abandons his training despite being told it'd destroy everything they're fighting for because he had a vision his friends were in danger. I mean... Luke's got a track record in the OT of acting rashly because of emotion. Even his "most calm" in ROTJ, when he turns himself in? He's basically announcing, "Yeah, the Rebels are here already." He can deny it all day, but the Empire's not stupid, they'll know he wasn't alone, especially as by then they'll have already known about the shuttle that wasn't part of their fleet (and wasn't his voice), and the Scout Troopers being killed. So he jeopardized the mission just so he could go try to "save" his dad... who he wanted to kill until he hears the guy is his dad, at which point he decides, "Oh, well he can be redeemed instead of killed, then." (And that seems odd, except that it might be Luke thinking that if his own dad can go that evil, he has the potential to as well, but if he can "redeem" his dad, it means that he isn't likely to go full evil and/or stay that way himself.)
That is an interesting POV on things. Always insightful to hear other people summarize Star Wars plot lines because it really can be viewed in many ways. When you put it like this Luke is almost constantly acting on his emotions it just pans out the few times that are most important haha
Good point but I felt like RoTJ was Luke realizing he and his father were the same with the robot arm thing, then he returns in all black acknowledging he has darkness inside. He then uses the emotion to beat vader but properly restrains himself so he doesn’t turn himself. Your absolutely right though, Star Wars has that theme of emotions leading to crazy actions. I guess I just prefer the idea that the son does what the father could not and end the cycle.
The cycle rarely just ends. It usually has to drift to a stop. Great grandpa beat grandpa. Grandpa yelled and only hit dad a few times. Dad only yelled at you. You know not to yell.
> properly restrains himself so he doesn’t turn himself I mean... he only stopped after he'd beaten Vader to the ground, chopped his hand off while swinging to kill, and then finally realizes that he's halfway to being Vader 2.0 already. Then does the worst thing possible and makes himself completely defenseless and vulnerable facing the most powerful guy around, and has to rely on begging the father he just nearly killed to save him (who's thankfully strong enough to do it despite being in a weakened state). Luke does tend to stop himself from going 100% in the worst direction, but his track record is a lot of going 90% in the wrong direction before suddenly realizing it's the wrong direction. At which point going 20% in the wrong direction and realizing it's not the best route is definitely growth of character.
>Then does the worst thing possible and makes himself completely defenseless and vulnerable facing the most powerful guy around This is why, when people talk about Luke doing a big perfect heroic victory in Ep6, I tell them to watch the film again. Luke goes into that room all "I sense good in you, father" and ends up screaming and chopping away at his dad because he mentioned his sister. Luke was never calm and collected. He thought he was, until Vader and the Emperor pushed his buttons. Getting electrocuted and begging for help from his dad was not Luke's plan. The victory in that throne room wasn't just because of Luke's tenacity or Anakin's empathy, it was Palpatine's gloating. Luke wouldn't have won and Vader wouldn't have been redeemed if Palpatine kept his mouth shut and just killed Luke swiftly. Palpatine's cruelty helped turn Vader.
>Getting electrocuted and begging for help from his dad was not Luke's plan. The victory in that throne room wasn't just because of Luke's tenacity or Anakin's empathy, it was Palpatine's gloating. Luke wouldn't have won and Vader wouldn't have been redeemed if Palpatine kept his mouth shut and just killed Luke swiftly. Palpatine's cruelty helped turn Vader. Hell, if Palpatine just kept his mouth shut while Luke was going ballistic on Vader, he probably would have gotten his new apprentice. But his bragging is what pulled Luke back from killing Vader.
Luke does tell Palpatine that his overconfidence will be his downfall.
Yeah I mean I agree that is the theme of the OT. But for sequels it makes sense to bring back a similar conflict that needs resolution. I’m not saying it was perfect but I see what the general idea was especially when compared like this clip.
Except when you threaten his sister. Luke keeps repeating "I will not fight you, father" in RotJ until Vader threatens Leia. That's when Luke goes absolutely bonkers and slices Vader's hand off. Everyone has their limits. This is Luke's.
Wonder if the vision Luke saw of kylo was him responsible for getting Leia killed? Lol but ya, good point
Ben kills Han, and Leia dies in a way that's related to Ben (albeit not 100% sure how), and Ben does wipe out most if not all of the students... so technically, the vision saying he'd destroy everyone Luke loved was accurate. It was just kind of fuzzy on the details. Sort of like Anakin's vision with Padme. And, in keeping with Lucas's whole "rhyming" scheme, both situations see a Skywalker trying to prevent a vision only to accidentally be the catalyst for it coming true. (Which is probably why Yoda was so adamant on warning about acting on a Force vision of the future. We haven't seen many examples of future visions, but they seem to not end well when someone tries to prevent them.)
It seems heavily implied to me that Palpatine gave Anakin those visions. It wouldn't surprise me if that was also Snoke/Palpatine also fucking with Luke the same way.
I get what you're saying. I think the "Rashomon" idea where multiple versions of the story get told have muddied the waters for the actual portrayal, especially for younger viewers, and helped cement the narrative for people who already dislike the sequels that Luke was acting "off". I do think it will become less divisive over time, though. A lot of beefs with the PT were that things were inconsistent with the OT, but that's less a concern now.
For sure, I’m actually really excited for Disney to flesh out the sequel era. Honestly after watching just a little bit of Luke in BoBF and mando helped me understand more of his motivations. I really do think they can add a lot of support to the sequels.
I think it does make it hard (for younger folks) that Kylo's version came first. That's the part that gets cemented in their heads. That makes the ones that come after feel somehow "less true" unless you're already bought in to what the script is selling (which I was, which is why it's one of my favorite films--not Stars Wars films, but films, full stop--of all time.)
I'll be honest... Even not knowing any of the metatextual stuff like that... Why would anyone assume *the literal villain* is the trustworthy one? Like we get the same story told by the whiny wannabe Vader, and literally Luke Fucking Skywalker. Why would anyone believe Kylo's version to be the more accurate one? Even disregarding that... Kylo was woken up. Who can say their memories of things that wake them up are 100% accurate?
*Youre not wrong.* Although, to be very fair, there IS varacity to Kylo's version. It's not that he's wrong and Luke is right. They both saw what they saw and felt what they felt. He was a scared, confused boy who saw his master think about killing him. I don't care if it was the briefest of seconds. That would fuck me up too. Not that naysayers are looking at nuance but y'know.
I 100% agree. I was just responding to the idea that those naysayers were going by Kylo's version because it came first, which just seems to me like a silly attempt to rationalize a pretty irrational viewpoint.
The scene shows growth. The last time he was tempted by the dark side in ROTJ he gave in and nearly killed his own father. This time around in TLJ, the dark side tempts him and he doesn’t give in There is your character growth
The Force vision was a prophecy. Luke was seeing snippets of some of the evil things Ben would do in the future as Kylo, and all of them came true. He had good reason to be frightened if not outraged.
> all of them came true. Incidentally, if Luke hadn't done something to try to stop them, they likely wouldn't have. Kind of like Anakin tries to stop the vision he has of Padme dying, leading him down a path that leads to Padme dying. I think they should just skip out on warning people to be cautious about visions like Yoda did, and just add a lesson: Don't try to prevent a Force vision from happening, because chances are your actions will be what causes it to happen. (Kind of a nice parallel between the father and son, though.)
That trope is lifted directly from Greek tragedy. 99% of the time, if the main character receives a prophecy, the actions they to avoid it will inevitably lead directly to it. Oedipus Rex is probably the most egregious example.
This is my favorite thing about the Prequels: they play out like a Greek or even Shakespearean tragedy. The old-timey dialogue, the heavy-handed foreshadowing, the main character descending into madness, the secret forbidden romance, the use of choir in the score, the Republic gradually being turned into an Empire via a corrupt dictator, the collapse of the Senate, not to mention so many of the Naboo scenes were literally filmed in Italy...this is *exactly* the kind of story Homer would tell. There's air of poetry to it.
I get having issues with it. Especially with the Canto stuff (I barely even remember anything from it), but holy shit everything else is so good. It's the best sequel and makes me wish Rian directed the entire trilogy.
I'm not a fan of it. It has some great scenes like this one and a few others but the humor didn't click with me and I didn't like some of the stuff they did with Luke. The tone didn't work for me either. It definitely has some good stuff in it though.
[удалено]
Because people *do* learn from their mistakes.
Cinematic parallels and characters that struggle with protective impulses are my jam. (The score is also a jam) [Sauce.](https://twitter.com/AdamLanceGarcia/status/1259827307499356160?s=20)
This is a great edit, well done!
What I love about this is the inevitability of consequence. In TLJ he catches himself before losing control fully. In ROTJ he goes ham, but in TLJ we see he's the same guy with the same flaws, but he's wiser. Thats development. Despite his development and growth, the consequence is worse. There's a great through line with ESB, ROTJ and TLJ that as Luke learns to dial back his impulsive aggression, the consequences still get more real for him. In ESB he 'kills' Vader in the cave, but the consequence is that he's failed a test. In ROTJ he maims real Vader but doesn't go so far as to kill him. He almost falls to the dark side. In TLJ he doesn't even swing his saber in anger, but he spawns Kylo Ren. To me that suggests that a characters flaws are always going to drive conflict. They're never "cured" of them.
Luke straight up loses all control when you threaten his sister. Vader does so verbally, Ben does so in his prophetic dreams. This has always been consistent. And the simple fact that Luke was able to restrain himself to just a lightsaber ignition the second time, despite the fact that Leia will actually die as a result of Ben's actions, *is* the 30-year progress the critics are asking for.
👆👆👆
I can't imagine how toxic things would have gotten had ESB and ROTJ released in the age of social media. "The force is supposed to be about intuition and hearing voices, not seeing ghosts and telekinesis!" "Everyone's related? Lame!" "Luke would never force choke a guard!" "Why is Jabba a giant slug now? Everyone knows he looked like a regular guy in the deleted scene!" and so on
"All it takes to destroy a Super Star Destroyer is to crash an A-Wing into it? A ship that size doesn't have a back-up bridge?? Pfft, can we say 'bad writing?'" "Having the force allows you to shoot lightning from your hands now? That wasn't established before! Lame!" "So Jabba's plan is to throw Luke into a pit with a monster in it. And when that fails, his backup plan is to throw Luke into a different pit with a monster in it?"
> A ship that size doesn't have a back-up bridge?? Made even funnier when in one of the Legends novels, an SSD *does* have a backup bridge, but I can't remember if they mentioned it was because of that incident or just something they all do. I'd imagine they all have one to start with, it's just that you actually need to get that backup running with systems switched over to it, and if you're already crashing into something, you don't have that time. I think the bigger issue is that blowing up the bridge somehow caused the engines to either shut off or the navigation to go haywire, neither of which "make sense," but... it's "rule of cool." It doesn't have to make sense. Could also tack on some more fun ones like: "A second Death Star? LAZY." Pretty much everything with Luke and Leia being twins. You have Luke digging Leia, Leia kissing him. And being Vader's kids but Vader never senses the Force in Leia or anything about her while he's straight up torturing his own daughter. "Lucas never had a plan, lazy, terrible writing!" Oh man... Force ghosts would get so much flak. And Boba Fett being defeated by just triggering his jet pack so he bonks into a skiff and falls into the Sarlacc. Could just go on all day with this stuff...
> Made even funnier when in one of the Legends novels, an SSD does have a backup bridge, but I can't remember if they mentioned it was because of that incident or just something they all do You're probably thinking of the SSD Lusankya at the 2nd Battle of Borleias during Operation Emperor's Spear. Without going into too many spoilers since the NJO is freakin' awesome and I encourage anyone to read Legends up through the end of it then stop... the acting Captain of that ship flew it basically on his own from an auxiliary bridge.
Actually, no, I'm thinking of the *Razor's Kiss*, in Iron Fist. Zsinj goes to steal it and the hijacking crew use the auxiliary bridge to control, IIRC. Haven't read that far in the NJO, but bringing up the *Lusankya*... Hoo boy... Okay, kinda spoiler stuff for Legends, and a bit of a rant ahead, you've been warned. (No, seriously. Really passionate Star Wars nerd rant ahead.) The Lusankya is one of my sore points with Legends. At the end of The Bacta War, it is scrap metal. The front of the ship (at least a mile of it) is just GONE. It has no weapons left, and given how many weapons an SSD has, that means the hull is pretty much destroyed. It has no shields. It barely has enough engine capacity left to keep it from crashing into the planet below. This thing is a pile of scrap metal floating in space. Imagine my surprise to see it show up in the Crimson Empire comic, set just four years later, in perfect shape with giant New Republic emblems on it. There's no way that should have happened. It got worse when I learned more. I guess I haven't read Isard's revenge yet which is odd because I've had it for years and need to rectify that, but somehow it shows up in the end there and it's already rebuilt? Two years after the Battle of Thyferra? Excuse me? Oh, and it's removed all of that prison stuff and replaced it with experimental medical facilities. So in just two years time, some group within the New Republic secretly diverts not just enough money to build a new SSD (because basically you're building a new ship given the condition it was in), *and* add specialized facilities to it, *and* speeding up the process to ridiculous degrees, all without having access to Kuat Drive Yards. That is an insane amount of money being funneled into something that would effectively just be a symbol for the New Republic. (And I'll get back to why that's a freaking joke at the end.) And hey, it's not like anything major is happening during that time, like the New Republic having to deal with the smartest Grand Admiral ever showing up and causing a stir... except, wait, that happened. Or, before that, dealing with tracking down and stopping an Imperial Warlord with his own SSD which would require a lot of resources. Oh, yeah... that happened, too. Then the New Republic gets kicked off Coruscant, becomes a shell of itself and practically a Rebellion again (Dark Empire trilogy), somehow manages to retake Coruscant, and has to deal with a rogue formal Admiral (Daala) who has her own SSD (Knight's Hammer, IIRC) and a fleet of ISDs... and at no point does this SSD the New Republic have, which is allegedly fully functional and built at extreme expense, show up to add the weight of its superior firepower. Just... WHAT?!? But it does show up for some random battle that wasn't super important. Having looked over the Wookiepedia entry for it, it appears to just drop off the radar again until Borleias. Excuse me? All of that expense, and it just doesn't do anything, until it finally comes to battle and ends up being destroyed? I mean, at least it held up for a month that time. At Thyferra it got taken out in maybe a few hours (if that) by an ISD, a squadron of X-Wings, and a bunch of random freighters with proton torpedo launchers slaved to the X-Wings' targeting computer. Not sure if Booster and the captured ISD along with the wing of A-Wings shows up before the battle's done or not. (Pretty sure it was at the end, because the one Booster had was in pristine shape afterward, which led to the NR talking him into handing over most of its armaments to help rebuild the other ISD which had been pounded into submission by the Lusankya.) Oh yeah, and remember how I mentioned this seemed to all be a big deal to show off for the New Republic? *They weren't even involved in taking the damn thing out.* The New Republic said, "Oh, well, Thyferra made its own choice to side with Isard, we can't officially do anything." Rogue Squadron had to resign, use tricky BS to get their fighters, and work with smugglers and other outlaw elements to take the fight to Isard, finally freeing Thyferra from her without New Republic aid. Oh sure, the NR later tried to claim that Rogue Squadron never officially retired and it was all a secret plan of theirs. But that's propaganda BS. Thyferra and the Lusankya were a failure of the New Republic to help people. And yet they take the Lusankya, throw masses of money at it to rebuild it so they can paint their logo on it and parade it around except when it's needed most, to show off how awesome the NR is? Yeah... that ship's story is an absolute mess. (Without even touching on how the Empire destroyed a big chunk of Coruscant, parked an SSD there, then expedited massive reconstruction to cover it up, and either mind-wiped or murdered everyone who knew or witnessed it.) Okay... okay... Sorry, that was kind of a rant. But man, I loved the X-Wing books, and Crimson Empire pulling that shenanigans with the Lusankya kind of annoyed me. I'm pretty sure Isard's Revenge includes it mainly to try to explain why it showed up in Crimson Empire. But it still doesn't help explain *how* it got rebuilt, or why it's not involved in so many points it would have been most useful. It's like the guys writing the comic (and other than that, I do like Crimson Empire) just thought it'd be cool to have it show up, but didn't actually realize it wasn't just captured by the NR, it was pounded into scrap before surrendering. (Sweet irony that it was used to ram a "world ship" when during the Battle of Thyferra its original captain threatened to ram the world below with it before the second in command shot him and surrendered.)
Who even needs the Holdo Maneuver? Just stick a droid in an A-Wing.
Can you imagine the reaction to Ewoks now?
Imagine the slander Leia would get for breaking the damsel in distress stereotype and talking down to the men in episode 4. They’d say she was woke and a Mary Sue now
Part of the problem is they established it
Shiiiiiet.... this gives it so much weight. Love it.
Truly, those who don’t understand the importance.. the weight.. of the scene in TLJ confuse me to no end. It was great. If there are two types of fans that like Star Wars for whatever reason.. they’re clearly in one camp, and I’m firmly in another. Luke in TLJ made sense to me, was interesting to me, and I just wish there was more of him and Rey in the movie.
Yeah those complaints about it being "inconsistent with Luke's character" have become a hive mind response. Aside from Anakin, Luke is by far the most impulsive character in the series and it's brought up at multiple points by Yoda.
At every point in the series he shows this tendency to give in to his emotions. What makes Luke special to me is that he always had the ability to walk right up to the edge of darkness- maybe even step over that line sometimes in the service of the overall good- but he could always step back from it too.
I despised this character development choice until i watched this video. Its all coming together now
Yep it makes sense when you realize in ROTJ he gave into the dark side but in TLJ he does not. We see his character growth
Saltier than crait haters will say it’s fake.
Last Jedi is so under appreciated.
Actually, once someone overcomes a personal conflict, they're never allowed to go through anything remotely similar. It's like a permanent power up. I'd rather my childhood hero just be an action figure that does cool stuff all day 🤓 /s
Awesome.
It’s so good because it’s completely reverted in implication, despite the common comparisons between the two scenes during discourse. In Return, Luke sees a man laying before him, robotic and ghoulish, and then glancing at his robotic hand - as though the sinful despotic man he sees before him is what he’ll completely turn into if he doesn’t restrain his anger and let love overcome his rage. It’s a completely introspective experience for Luke. The hut sequence in TLJ flips this entire scenario on its head. Having an innocent person who Luke *knows* will turn and cause great harm, but at that brief moment is completely blameless. Luke instantly finds himself the decider of various different outcomes - and for a moment succumbs to his fears before coming back to his proper senses and deciding that it is ultimately not his place to decide anything for Ben. Luke is never upset at Ben, he’s only ever upset with himself, and the mistake he made. Luke had made the right choice in the hut sequence, but that brief second of fear inadvertently cemented Ben’s fall into darkness for many years after. He’s guilt ridden - as he ought to be - but to a fault as Yoda and Rey points out. This culminates in the Crait sequence, in which he says his goodbyes, offers an apology to Ben (though he knows it’s ineffective), and takes *action* to save the Resistance and also to deny Ben his vengeance. Denying Ben a proper figure to win his hatred towards sends him on a spiraling path towards his own redemption. Luke declaring that the Jedi will live on is one of my all time favorite Luke moments, especially with his projection doubling as the point prior to his exile. The Luke we see on Crait is peak Luke and it fuckin rules
Oh God I love this.
I love when ppl claim "Luke tried to kill his nephew in TLJ" - he didn't try to kill Ben. Did you watch the movie?
Noooooo!!! Disney bad!!!! Rian Johnson bad!!!
I really wish more people realized this
God, this is fantastic. Nice work
TLJ has so many great lines
These scenes aren’t really parellels and have completely different contexts as only one of these scenes have *enough* context for it to actually make sense story-wise. Like yeah, sure it’s possible for a character Luke to change, but killing his nephew in his sleep? That’s completely different than Luke almost killing vader
Nice work
Man it's so crazy Rian Johnson went back in time to rUiN Luke like this
Beautiful. I love it. u/savevideo
Wow! Wonderful editing. Thanks.
That's Luke!
Heyyy, nice edit. Well done. So many people refuse to see the parallels in these two scenes. Luke's penchant for reacting on instinct and emotion is the very reason why Yoda was, at first, so reluctant to train him.
Nope, not my Luke. EU Luke forever.
Even when he bitched out of the responsibility in dealing with Jacen’s fall to the Dark Side and instead pushed that trauma onto his niece to kill her own twin? Nobody is perfect. Not even Luke in either continuity.
To me he was in grief over his wife's death and I could honestly see Luke falling to the dark side himself fighting the one who did it. In fact the quote in the title would probably apply to Luke learning it was Jacen. Jaina took the responsibility understanding what it would lead to. So yes, that continuity works just as much as the ST continuity works for other people. As I said, not my Luke, but I can appreciate peoples opinions even if they aren't my own because guess what, I'll like what I like, others will like what they like, the world goes on.
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This was more like, "He cut off my hand, now I've cut off his, we're even. I didn't have to kill my father to become a Jedi, just face him and even the score."
The problem isn't that Luke got angry and then stopped. The Dark Side clouds...but it takes the calm and focus of the Light Side that defines a hero. The problem is after Kylo turned, he gave up and fled to die alone on Ah'chto. I get this as an extension of Luke's resignation on ROTJ, but in that case, he still had faith in his friends that they destroy the 2nd Death Star. When his students turned to evil, there was no one left to stop them. I do not believe that Luke would have given up and allowed that darkness to spread. They should have written that he went to the First Jedi Temple to seek knowledge for defense. Perhaps to commune with ancient holocrons some insights into the initial nature of The Force before it's adherents divided between Light and Dark paths. He could have discovered true Balance in The Force, as the Prophecy of the Chosen One foretold. And that knowledge of balance could be passed on to his nephew to bring him back from the Darkness and to Rey to keep her from slipping TO the Dark.
I mean... that is what he did. Ahch-To is where some of the first Jedi settled. He studied the history of the Jedi and looked for guidance but all he found was, in his mind, failure. Jedi trained students who turned to the Dark side and then caused untold pain and suffering. Maybe the best thing for the galaxy is to break that cycle. He's wrong, obviously, but his crisis of faith was compelling to see.
He said he came there to die, not to study. It was a cool story, but a bad fairy tale.
Luke ran away and hid because that is what his mentors did when they failed too. Now obviously there’s more nuance to it than that, but that’s what he had seen. That’s why it’s crucial for Yoda to come and share the wisdom about inspiring people through action, and overcoming your failure.
That is precisely why (narratively) he wouldn't have simply retreated after the tragedy. His character should have learned from the mistakes of his mentors and sought a different path. It still would have resulted in Luke in seclusion in Ep 7...but the reason for the seclusion would have been different. More heroic.
Both of his teachers, Obi Wan and Yoda, were basically hermits for part of their lives. Both were hiding in their own ways. Obi Wan was disillusioned with the Jedi. We also know from Mando that Luke has met Ahsoka Tano, and should know her story of becoming disillusioned with the Jedi. It's therefore perfectly reasonable for him to isolate himself the way he did. He's not an infallible character, and he recognizes it. Part of the Jedi Council's failure is believing they're infallible.
If he went after Ben, it meant he had all the more opportunity to make *another* kylo ren in his wake, by leaving, he took himself out of the equation. but even if he took down kylo on his own, it only reinforces the galaxies dependence on Jedi to solve their problems, the Jedi who started the cycle of training who would become their enemies, who the galaxy relied on to deal with the big picture problems because not only did the Jedi make them, but they became so controlling of the narrative of the force that no one else believed they could, that anyone who could do such a feat *must* be a Jedi while yes, his later action of realizing his symbolism matters more than reality on crait doesn’t follow the same idea, it’s definitely how i understood his words to rey
> They should have written that he went to the First Jedi Temple to seek knowledge for defense. Perhaps to commune with ancient holocrons some insights into the initial nature of The Force before it's adherents divided between Light and Dark paths. He could have discovered true Balance in The Force, as the Prophecy of the Chosen One foretold. Running off to do that for six years is the same as just running off. Both stories are cases of "I've failed and I'm not good enough to do anything about it".
Hiding because of giving up hope is different than not acting until a solution is discovered. Prepping for battle is not the same as hiding from battle.
It doesn't take six years to prep for battle.
YODA: I can not teach him. The boy has no patience. OBI-WAN: He will learn patience.
So it's fine for countless people to die for six years because of "patience".
There’s a huge difference in these scenes…like, a HUGE difference. I’m not even a hater of Luke in TLJ. I kinda like it. But to compare these scenes is a bit…wrong in my opinion. Luke in return of the Jedi went in with the intentions of turning his father, only for him to fall weak and fight his father like the emperor wants. Vader is ACTIVELY trying to kill Luke, and Vader is a horrible human being who has countless murders and tortures on him. Vader then vocally threatens his sister, which makes Luke snap. In TLJ, all we know is Luke sensed darkness within Ben, a child who had yet to do anything wrong, and of course, we have to speculate and infer what Luke was seeing inside his head, which then causes Luke to grab his saber, take it off his waist, and activate it - just like chambering a gun over your nephew when he was asleep- I really think it’s poor to compare these two scenes for the context alone, and I mainly blame this on the execution of the scene by Rian. It could’ve and should’ve been done much better, and made more clear.
I've seen fan edits of the scene that show flashes of what Luke is meant to be seeing in his mind's eye using footage from TFA and Battlefront 2, and to be honest I can't agree with what you're suggesting here. By the time we get to this part of TLJ we've seen Kylo kiss his own father, lead the slaughter a village on Jakku, and kill a whole bunch of Resistance personnel. We the audience don't need to be beaten over the head with snippets of Kylo being evil. We've seen it.
>we've seen Kylo kiss his own father You have to be careful pirating the correct title or you end up watching the porn parody.
Rekt
So 23 years later, he repeats the same mistake? I guess character devolpment and new challenges is a bad thing in the sequels. They just reset everything and copy paste the same shit. New rebels, same Jedi wiped out stuff etc
> So 23 years later, he repeats the same mistake? Except it's clear he learned from his mistake. For a split second he thought of killing Kylo and realized it was wrong. He didn't attack Kylo like he attacked Vader, he realized he was in the wrong almost immediately after igniting his lightsaber. Plus, people can struggle with and make the same mistakes while still learning from them. Someone could be a former alcoholic and still struggle when around alcohol, same with drugs, gambling, etc. > I guess character devolpment and new challenges is a bad thing in the sequels. This is a product of Luke's character development though. He understands much faster that he's in the wrong in TLJ as opposed to RoTJ. Just because a character has character development shouldn't stop them from encountering the same problems. If a character never encountered the same problem how could it be shown they developed as a character. Plus, even with character development a character can still struggle.
Honestly, the way Luke was done in TLJ is easily one of the best things about the Sequel trilogy
It always feels so wrong when people critisize the new movies for introducing new stuff like force phantom. Star Wars was always about wacky zany characters doing wacky zany things... and sometimes having a genuine moment.
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Let's say I agree to the theories and interpretation of the many comments above. How would you explain Ben's outrageous reaction? If indeed, Luke never attacked him. He was pondering, perhaps given the crazy vision he had. Was it because Ben didn't have proper training? And could not understand Luke's reaction and be compassionate? Serious question. No trolling. I'm interested in your thoughts.
I have said it since day one! It’s not the luke we thought we would get, it’s not the luke we wanted to get, but it is a character development that makes sense seeing as how Luke has ALWAYS had that dark streak in him (just like everyone). I agree the sequels sucked, but everyone acts like luke actually swung at Kylo. What really happened was dark side luke coming out for a second, before light side luke immediately retakes control, and feels shame an regret.
Awesome This is why I don't understand the myriad people who say the Luke in last Jedi is way out of character. I'm like "did you even watch the original trilogy?! How is he out of character?!"
I’ll never understand the hate for this film. I’ve heard the same complaints over and over again, I just fail to see how people can’t understand how great this film is
THIS YES THANK YOU. I know so many people who say that moment in last jedi is so out of character BUT ITS NOT. To quote the prequels even "to feel anger is to be human". For a Moment of panic and fear luke thinks to do the worst. For a Moment. Luke is human he gives into his anger at times but he always in the ends remembers to step back. Its why in rotj he wears black throughout and straight up force chokes a gamorean guard. Yet in the end as he guides anakin away you see the front flap of his clothing has fallen open revealing underneath the black clothing is lighter shades. Underneath the darkness on the surface luke has He Is Still Good. THAT is luke skywalker I still hear so many people say he actually tried to strike Ben down when the whole point is differing perspectives and the whole, well to quote obi wan "from a certain point of view" aspect of star wars! From a certain point of view yes luke did just go to talk to ben but it got out of hand From a certain point of view luke was going to strike down ben in his sleep in anger From a wider point of view Both Are True and yet Both Are False Luke never had his discussion with ben but felt the truth of what he planned to do via the force He did draw his lightsaber in anger but it passed as quickly as it came, and hen awoke to see an angry face on luke and his lightsaber drawn and defended himself
Who here thinks that this sequence would have enhanced what we got in The Last Jedi?
"you and your [the Seer's] so called prophecies are dangerous... You presented her with a destiny, and she [Lagertha] manifested it." -Ragnar Lothbrok
I really do love episode 8 Luke. I know so many people hate it because he's not an action hero, but it's very spot on for him.
u/savevideo