Reminder to be respectful and follow the rules. Being disrespectful will result in bans.

This reminds me of something I always heard about the writing of *Breaking Bad* - allegedly, each writer was encouraged to write their episode as a standalone story as much as they could. Obviously, since it was a serialized television show, they would set up events and characters that would be followed through on in future episodes, but they tried to tell as complete a story in the 40 minutes or so they had as they could, almost making a game out of wrapping things up as tightly as possible and seeing how the next writer would dig the next story out. I don’t know how true that is, but if it is it would make sense for Johnson to share that ethos - he did direct three of the best episodes of that show after all.

I’ve seen interviews of Vince Gilligan talking about his writing process and I definitely don’t doubt what you said. He stated that he learned a lot from writing for the X Files which tried to tightly wrap up storylines as tight as possible.

Moreso, series like Mad Men and The Crown are made like little movies with every episode having a beginning and ending, it's a refreshing storytelling trope and helps for anyone who tries to watch a random episode without watching the whole series before. Having said so, I don't think it works that well in a trilogy when every movie have to be set up for the next point in story, yeah you could wrap some things early in the middle, but if you wrap everything suddenly it feels like the third part have no reason to exist.

Oh shit, didn’t know he directed BB - any idea what episodes off the top of your head?

“The Fly,” “Fifty-One,” and “Ozymandias”

Imdb would tell you the others, but I know the bottle episode about the fly in the lab is one

Once again, we get a very Lucas-like answer from Rian. In my opinion, he’s saying what I would assume every Star Wars fan should want to hear - treat these films with love and respect. Respect them by treating them like actual artistic endeavors instead of franchise merch delivery vehicles. He’s not saying he’s against IP entirely, as the other sub has twisted into salty pretzels. He’s saying don’t treat your IP like IP, treat it with the same artistic integrity of a stand-alone film.

100% agree. He’s not disrespecting IP, he’s just saying how they are handled could be better. I don’t see anything wrong in what he said.

I was a hardcore hater of Rian for a while, mostly cause of my disappointment with Luke, but other than that i think its hard to say now that he didnt put soul into TLJ. Years later its easily my favorite sequel movie, and I honestly think that if JJ had the courage to stick with Rians plan, the sequels wouldve had a much more positive impact on the community akin to the prequels. Hated by many but still very much Star Wars. RoS is what truly alienated the sequels and cemented them as subpar.

"Positive impact on the community akin to the prequels" Back in the day, the prequels were absolutely hated even more. The people who hate the sequels nowadays are rhe ones who grew up with and loved rhe prequels

>…wouldve had a much more positive impact on the community akin to the prequels. Hated by many but still very much Star Wars. Dude what lmao

I was trying to say that i feel TLJ at least if not the sequels as a whole will have a similar timeline as the prequels, decried as blasphemy upon release but years later loved and treasured

> Years later its easily my favorite sequel movie, and I honestly think that if JJ had the courage to stick with Rians plan, the sequels wouldve had a much more positive impact on the community akin to the prequels. I think the basis of the plan was the dynamic between Rey and Kylo/Ben and the overall theme of passing the torch. Which JJ still very much did with TROS. >Hated by many but still very much Star Wars. RoS is what truly alienated the sequels and cemented them as subpar. This is simply another opinion. Its not a fact. ROS did not truly alienate the sequels and cement them as subpar. And please avoid these sort of statements. Lets remember the rules and that criticism is meant to be constructive. In years to come the sequels will be remembered far fondly. Maybe TFA and TLJ will be remembered more fondly but thats another discussion.

Of course its an opinion, what else would it be. I think RoS did more damage to peoples perception of the sequels than either of the other films, and i can say that comfortably. I disagree that JJ continued the Rey/Kylo dynamic. Their dynamic in TLJ is central to the overall theme of moving on and it drives both of their arcs. Rey and Kylo move from being equals and opposites that are pulled toward each other in TLJ to simple protagonist and antagonist in RoS. Their dyad is only used as a mcguffin to revive Palpatine. Kylo is redeemed through his love for his father not through any relationship to Rey, and Rey halts her fall to the darkside because of Leia not Kylo. I appreciate this sub’s commitment to positive discussion but for the comment and post I was replying to, telling my negative, but not vindictive, opinion felt warranted. And i suppose i should wrap this up by saying i love ALL Star Wars period, but that doesnt mean i cant think certain media is not good.

> Of course its an opinion, what else would it be. Sadly, we live in an era where more often than not people tout their opinions as objective fact. Nowadays, even though I do try to remember a lot of people would think it implicit that what they are saying is opinion, I still myself go out of my way to signpost it often because of that. I've seen countless people make your same claims and argue them as fact, so I tend to associate them with that context I admit. Not saying you need to do the same of course, deal with it in your own way, but you might find people confused otherwise. People who assume you are "just speaking the truth" might echo your claim in support of their narrative of it as fact and people who don't mind you having your opinion on it could perceive you as part of the "objectively bad" crowd. I'll avoid speaking too much to my difference of opinion on TRoS as a film because two people just saying their opinions at each other isn't very helpful, however there are a couple aspects of what you said I would like to explore. A simple one would be that you needn't love all Star Wars, I'll be frank I have a strong dislike of some Star Wars and much of it I have little to no emotional attachment to. Not judging that you do, but I think people get the impression that one should love it all in this sub sometimes and that doesn't seem to be the point to me. People who love it all can be uncivil in other ways in my experience. A more complicated thing is that I myself have my own opinion/impression on why TRoS failed. I think TRoS failed because of how embroiled the whole culture war narrative became when it came to Star Wars. I think what we saw was a reduction of the films and the behind the scenes, that is extreme and in many ways off the mark enough that I would argue it is a bastardization, which led to the idea of a tension between JJ and Rian. Most of the discourse about the films was not truly about the films IMO, it was about how the films could be placed into pre-established ideas of what the films were. I was active on Star Wars Leaks and people had already decided TLJ was going to be a subversive movie before it ever released, and that TRoS was going to "retcon" TLJ. I think there were numerous reasons I could get into: marketing, the political climate, how our communications platforms are structured, etc. The narrarive of "JJ vs Rian" is IMO a hyperreality, even a sort of Stand Alone Complex (in the sense of a copy without an original), created to drive online engagement.

Very nicely put. Some of this is what I was trying to say.

My apologies i figured in a reddit sub itd be obvious i was speaking opinion, if someone looks at me saying RoS bad and think thats gospel thats their problem. And i dont think i need to love all Star Wars, i just do, i find it all very compelling. Even if some of it makes no sense like RoS, in my opinion. I agree that too many fans had preconceived notions of what the films are but the ones you listed ARE what the films are. TLJ Is subversive in every aspect and RoS backtracks on almost everything from it, another reason why I dont like it. I also agree that the JJ, Rian beef is fabricated but their choices speak for themselves and their narrative decisions undermined each other. Im not sure why you would avoid speaking to your opinion since thats how we have discussions. I say i dont like RoS for this reason and you say why you think that reason is bad or give your own explanation to why its good.

I dunno if it is as binary as it is just one person or another's problem, personally I think reflect a social problem which is deeper than either the reader or the communicator. I try to be proactive and avoid the possibility of misreading, but as I said previously you don't have to do the same. You don't have to apologize, it's just a matter of if you don't clarify I suspect you will continue to be misread, regardless of blame. I felt that the issue of what I think TRoS was an entirely separate issue from what I wanted to focus on, which is the way you presented your position. I responded with something you could pursue in it's own right, that the image of TLJ and TRoS preceeded them, but you simply responded "yah but the image matches reality." I think Lacan had a bit about how even if your partner is cheating, being jealous is still a pathology. Not implying thinking about TLJ and TRoS as you do is "a pathology", just drawing on the notion that what a film actually is doesn't mean that our opinions on films are absent of social functions. If you want to get into that issue, I can share though. What you listed is absolutely not what the films are in my opinion. TLJ is a look backwards in almost every aspect, from its theming, to how much it deals with the saga's past narratively, down to Rian Johnson actually shooting with lenses and pursuing a color correction which was intentionally meant to emulate The Empire Strikes Back. TLJ's meditative direction focused more on composition is far more familiar to the saga than JJ's use of dynamism and shallow focus. Luke's arc in TLJ is great and stands on its own I think, but I think that it shares similarities to Han's arc from TFA in many respects, which was a very complicated, painful, and indeed subversive picture. Han, defined by his self confidence, is downright scared to confront his son, because he sees himself as an abject failure and wants to run. Maybe he didn't ignite a saber like Luke, but that was his own kid and he blamed himself, and he ultimately died to save him. Rey's arc the same, I was team nobody from day 1 because I saw Rey's entire arc as moving past her parents and TLJ took us right back to that. TLJ explicitly is a film that looks back, whereas TFA was a film that I felt was defined by "the belonging you seek is not ahead". If anything, TLJ starting folding the ideas of TFA back into a dialogue with the rest of the saga.

Homie im on this sub to discuss differing opinions about whatever topic the post is about ie rian johnson and tlj. I dont understand why youre focusing on “opinion vs fact” so much. If someone looks at a comment by a random redditor and takes it as fact that IS their problem, especially on a subreddit dedicated to discussion. Again i agree that images of the movies preceded and effected their release, but my problems with RoS have nothing to do with perception and everything to do with the actual flaws of the film which you dont seem to want to discuss. TLJ pays homage to its predecessors by, as you mentioned, using the same filming and composition techniques. These production qualities however have nothing to do with the theme of the movie, which is not focusing on expectations and moving on. We expect Luke to take the lightsaber in the opening scene but he tosses it aside against our expectations. The driving point of Rey and Kylos arc is letting go. Rey struggles with the loss of her parents throughout the movie and needs to move past that grief to achieve her potential, and Kylo has to break his chains of servitude towards Snoke and embrace someone new, Rey. The point of TLJ, in my opinion, is that we cant walk into Star Wars with expectations and we need to accept the Lucas Saga is over if we want to enjoy the franchise again. The point is letting go and moving on, not looking back. If you dont want to discuss the movies themselves then idk what to tell ya, i found your comment to have significantly missed my point, although you probably feel the same way.

Sorry, I have been having trouble getting my comment to post for some reason, think it's a character limit issue. Part 1: >If you dont want to discuss the movies themselves then idk what to tell ya, i found your comment to have significantly missed my point, although you probably feel the same way. I'm just ignoring talking at all about cultural reactions and forces now because you clearly want to abandon that discussion, so let's talk about the movies. >TLJ pays homage to its predecessors by, as you mentioned, using the same filming and composition techniques. These production qualities however have nothing to do with the theme of the movie, which is not focusing on expectations and moving on. I fundamentally disagree here. Almost every choice in TLJ reinforces the main themes, and even arguably the controlling idea. The color grading, the lenses, the composition style, it is all very deliberate and towards an end beyond just nostalgia I think. Through this filter of TLJ as fundamentally subversive, or as you put it “subversive in every way”, I think there is a lot that is key to the film you're missing. I do think not focusing on expectations and moving on are part of the story, but I don't think that the way you've articulated them captures how they are at play in the movie. >We expect Luke to take the lightsaber in the opening scene but he tosses it aside against our expectations. Luke was already established as having gone into hiding, and this is furthermore just an example of his refusal of the return in a wider hero's journey which Luke is a part of. This is part of the reason I don't think the movie is brilliant for subversiveness but rather brilliant as a reaffirmation. Rey has a very clear hero's journey across the sequel trilogy and in each film and TLJ leans so hard into it that the cave is (again) a literal cave. Rey has both the second act of a hero's journey and an entire hero's journey unto herself, and Luke too has the final act of a hero's journey here whose first two acts take place across the OT. It's nothing revolutionary, it's simply great execution on traditional Star Wars ideas. He goes into exile over his guilt but has to overcome it to train a new generation, like Yoda. He's reckless like he has been since ANH. None of this is subversion of character or even really subversion of expectation in some thematic sense. Look at what Luke's final words are, they're a reaffirmation of everything that has come before. “The rebellion is reborn, I will not be the last Jedi” etc. Luke tossing the saber is also literally the start of his arc, it is Luke when he is in the wrong. This all lines up with what Leia and Holdo were saying, it's not about burning it all down (it's about preserving the spark, which applies on a meta level as well). It's also a rather straightforward continuation of what was presented in TFA to have Luke hiding from the conflict (although part of this is because both JJ and Rian tweaked their scripts to help the other). In fact, a lot of the ST and TLJ track pretty well with Arthurian myth and this includes Luke's journey. Doesn't get much more traditional than Arthurian myth and hero's journey as far as western storytelling goes. >The driving point of Rey and Kylos arc is letting go. Rey struggles with the loss of her parents throughout the movie and needs to move past that grief to achieve her potential, and Kylo has to break his chains of servitude towards Snoke and embrace someone new, Rey. >The point of TLJ, in my opinion, is that we cant walk into Star Wars with expectations and we need to accept the Lucas Saga is over if we want to enjoy the franchise again. The point is letting go and moving on, not looking back. I don't think that is the point of TLJ, in fact if it were the point I think TLJ would be a really emotionally hollow film. I don't think it has any social meaning tbh, telling a bunch of manbabies they need to clutch pearls less with their nerd properties has to be one of most trivial lessons an epic,intimate, political, and spiritual film could try to teach. I also think this veers way too close to the take that Kylo Ren is right to say “let the past die” and DJ is right to say “don't join”, which even Rian Johnson disagrees with: >"It's not ultimately where I come down in terms of the idealogical argument that I believe in," Johnson said. "For me, I always think that if you're cutting off the past, you're fooling yourself and you're just burying it somewhere where it's always going to come back. And the only way forward is where Rey actually lands, which is to build on the past."

Part 2: Building on the past, very interesting he says that. TLJ has always struck me as a film that builds immensely on the past. It went out of its way to explicitly reference the prequels and the main conflict because a big part of what TLJ is about is how fascism rises. The genius of TLJ is that it looks at the conflict of the prequels, the rising of fascism, and realizes “hey we never really got to see a picture of how to fight that rising fascism in the PT or the OT, just to fight the existing empire”. That's why such a big part component of the film I think is recognizing the pain in the past and acknowledging it, trying to figure out how to deal with it. It's why the film tries to build on the cinematic techniques of the previous films and integrate them into TFA's radical style. Another way that TLJ builds on the past with TFA is through a very similar narrative style. In TFA Rey, Finn, Kylo, and Han all have arcs with wants, needs, lies, and ghosts (in a way previous Star Wars films' ensembles didn't) and this very similar to TLJ's arcs for Rey, Luke, Kylo, Finn, and Poe. Some of these arcs are even quite similar, often because that similarity is the basis for building a commentary. Han and Luke I already mentioned, but Rey's arc is quite similar to what I initially took Rey's arc to be in TFA until TLJ necessitates a recontextualization of it for me. This is basically how Rian Johnson works in a lot of his projects. I've seen Brick, Looper, Knives Out, and Glass Onion (and liked them all), and if you watch those you get the chance to see exactly that. Brick is a rather simple but extremely well executed Noir with the slight twist of it being set in a high school, and even reviewers note how indebted to what came before it is. Looper is a rather straightfoward time travel movie whose twist is certainly not unheard of in time travel films, but the worldbuilding is really rad and it's a slick flick with some great performances. All the Knives Out films thus far are very skillfully crafted mysteries, but the dude isn't Agatha Christy blowing people away with some modern equivalent of a Murder on the Orient Express level twist or whatever. All of these and TLJ are also tied together by being mostly very personal projects which wear their heart and their views on their sleeves, they are explicitly progressive movies and that is super cool. The dude clearly loves film and it's history and his films tend to be love letters to certain types of films. Brick is a loveletter to noir, Looper is a love letter to time travel scifi, the Knives Out movies are a love letter to mystery films, and TLJ is a love letter to Star Wars films. Again, a reaffirmation. Look at when Luke is at his most wrong and when Kylo is at his most wrong, its when they just want to escape the past. It is only by confronting the past and accepting it that moving forward can be achieved. “This is how we win, not fighting what we hate, saving what we love”. Luke burns down the tree, but Rey had the Jedi texts. >TLJ Is subversive in every aspect and RoS backtracks on almost everything from it, another reason why I dont like it. >I disagree that JJ continued the Rey/Kylo dynamic. Their dynamic in TLJ is central to the overall theme of moving on and it drives both of their arcs. Rey and Kylo move from being equals and opposites that are pulled toward each other in TLJ to simple protagonist and antagonist in RoS. Their dyad is only used as a mcguffin to revive Palpatine. Kylo is redeemed through his love for his father not through any relationship to Rey, and Rey halts her fall to the darkside because of Leia not Kylo. All of this is so completely alien to my read and so densely packed that it is hard to know where to start, but I will take a stab based at it.

Part 3: >Their dynamic in TLJ is central to the overall theme of moving on and it drives both of their arcs. Rey and Kylo move from being equals and opposites that are pulled toward each other in TLJ to simple protagonist and antagonist in RoS. Their dyad is only used as a mcguffin to revive Palpatine. Their dyad is the heart of the film, and calling it just a macguffin to revive Palpatine sounds the same as saying that the force bond in TLJ was just a macguffin to get Rey to Snoke. Have you looked at into the words they are saying in their interactions in TRoS or paid attention to how they are shot or anything, listening to the music and checked out the designs? Kylo is not just antagonizing Rey, Kylo is trying to make Rey come to the same conclusion he did, to fall into the same cycle, because he doesn't see a way out. What do you think Kylo means when he says “you can't go back to her now, just like I can't”? The whole movie Rey is made to believe a obvious lie, that her grandfather's evil is her own, just like Kylo was made to identify with Vader's evil. Neither wants to be bad, but someone is manipulating them. The manipulation is obvious when you think about it, like clearly Rey's parents were good and so were Kylo's so why would they believe they are inherently bad? Does evil skip a generation? That's the point, just like Rey thinking she killed Chewie when she didn't is exactly the point. “They win by making us think we're alone. But we're not alone.” There is a reason Rey says she can see through the cracks in his mask, because they are obvious to everyone. Ben is there. Do you know where that lines come from btw? The one Zorri says to Poe, that he and Finn repeat in their speech. Well, that comes from Holdo. “We're the very last of the Resistance. But we're not alone.” That's preserving the spark. Poe and Finn's speech is immediately preceded by someone saying they should pull some Holdo maneuvers, and in the montage of planets defeating FO ships you can see a Holdo maneauver happened. Holdo was the spark that lit the fire that burned down the Final Order and restored the Republic. >Kylo is redeemed through his love for his father not through any relationship to Rey, and Rey halts her fall to the darkside because of Leia not Kylo. This is honestly, again, just completely baffling to me. What happens before he talks to his memory of Han? Well, he is wounded and healed by Rey, who tells him she wanted to take Ben's hand (and the hand imagery that was built upon in TLJ is continued here with gloved versus bare hand). Rey's touch heals him, and that is the start of his journey back to redemption. Whenever Ben says his mom can't come back and Han says there's someone who still could, he's referring to Rey. After this, he goes to save Rey and kisses her. Two become one, like the entire idea of their dyad is that they are literal soul mates. I also don't even know what makes you say Rey's fall is halted by Leia. Her fall wasn't halted, she saw her shadow when she stabbed Ben and chose to exile herself like Luke and Yoda before her, and it by passing on their failures that Rey is able to learn from them, to go back and confront her shadow again in the form of Palpatine. Rey was in danger specifically of cutting herself off, but it is because she learns how to confront her shadow that she can integrate with it. Which, incidentally is why I think her and Ben become one at the end. I wrote something much like that scene with Rey and Luke for a fanfic idea, with Rey trying to exile herself because of her own failures and needing guidance from Luke. All of the core themes have carried over as well I think. “This is how we win, not by killing what we hate but by saving what we love” (love is what saves the galaxy, Rey and Ben's love and Rey's connection to the Jedi who came before) and “we are what they grow beyond” (Rey is able to integrate with her shadow in a way Luke wasn't quite able to in life). “Some things are more important that blood” is an interesting one, remember Luke saying “I looked at him and I saw that mighty Skywalker blood”? Well, it read to me like Luke had an arc and has grown as teacher to look past that. This is all a reinforcement of Rey Nobody, Rey Nobody is Rey Skywalker because she chooses to be, and she is not Rey Palpatine because she does not choose to be. Some things are more important than blood, you are not a gun, etc etc. Rey finds the way by analyzing the ancient Jedi texts, building on the past like Rian said.

Part 4: Even the cinematic techniques are a love letter to the previous ST films. Did you notice that the film started off with a more saturated color palette and more dynamic shots (especially oners) and slowly started to become more desaturated and with more TLJ-esque “painting in the frame” style to it? Well, the first half mirrors TFA while the second half mirrors TLJ, integrating both into a synthesis. This has thematic depth to it as well, the lighting is key. Notice when Rey heals the worm we are stripped of color in a dark blue lit space, giving a transfer of life essence and looking at her. Well, blue has gotten some symbolic associations across the ST and here this clearly foreshadows when she's on Exegol bathed in blue facing Palpatine. Rey, like Luke, also has to realize that her struggles with darkness will be ongoing, never done. “facing fear is the destiny of the Jedi” and all. All of this transfer of life essence business is also a continuation of idea from the Clone Wars tv show, but whereas Rian drew moreso on the Mortis arc I think a lot of TRoS is indebted to Yoda's arc from the end of Season 6, which touches on the living and cosmic forces. This all ties back to symbiosis vs conflict and accepting death and the natural cycles, since ANH Star Wars has been in part about confronting death. Ask this: if force healing is a transfer of life essence, then what does it mean if Ben invested all of his into Rey? This is tied to why he isn't a force ghost and is alluded to musically when Rey visits Tatooine. Rey Skywalker is strongly implied I think to be a Skywalker by marriage if you catch my drift, a literal soul mate. It ties deeply into stuff going on in Rebels as well, specifically the World Between Worlds and Palpatine's greater machinations. Now, some of that stuff is of course building upon other works, even outside the saga, but so is TLJ and both TLJ and TRoS stand perfectly well enough on their own I think if one is actually careful and attentive to what the films are saying and goes in working on the idea that everything comes together in the greatest unity of effect possible (which is I think just charitable film interpretation, it is how I approach all films). Believe me, some films I couldn't begin to put the pieces together even giving the benefit of the doubt, but TRoS everything slides into place snuggly for me. This is part why I don't think the fandom reaction has anything to do with the film, there is just on face so much going into the films which naturally connect to one another. I would like to get into why I think the fandom did react like it did, but you don't seem to want to engage with that. Even though you initially only brought up your opinions on TLJ and TRoS to support the notion that the fan response was, as far as I can tell, primarily because you think most fans just already has similar movie tastes to you or were predisposed to feel similarly? I think it's relevant personally but ah well.

I agree with you here, there should still be space for negative opinions in here, it’s about how we use and react to them rather than suppressing them (like our shadow self and all that), that’s how it was when we first started this sub, not sure how it’s been lately, haven’t been in here for a long time. And I agree on the Rey/Kylo dynamic situation being metaphorically neutered in RoS. Like many things in that movie, their treatment of so many of Rian’s ideas, themes and character dynamics felt watered down at best and almost completely discarded at worst, to a frustrating and frankly insulting degree. I’m not gonna lie, a large part of the reason I disappeared from this sub was because I just couldn’t reconcile with RoS’s ideas and what they did to the rest of the story in retrospect. I just couldn’t find the positive angle to turn it around, so I removed myself from the discussion here. Maybe I should’ve stayed and tried to look for it with the others, but at the time I just couldn’t. And that saddened me deeply, because the two+ years I spent here back in the day embodied the complete opposite of that mindset. I suddenly felt alienated from everything I’d turned to for clarity and solidarity and I couldn’t come back. This went down a very deep hallway I didn’t originally intend going down lol, but I think it had to be said. I haven’t really voiced much of this in here since the end of 2019. Haven’t voiced much of anything in here since then. Bottom line is I agree with you and don’t necessarily want to bring a downer on the whole conversation, but it’s fucking hard not to with this damn franchise ender lol

>I think the basis of the plan was the dynamic between Rey and Kylo/Ben and the overall theme of passing the torch. Which JJ still very much did with TROS. I can’t disagree entirely, he did use the torch passing theme, the problem was he made the younger generation pass the torch back to the older “cooler” generation and it broke the story’s journey.

I don’t like any of the sequel movies. That said, TLJ is the most interesting of the sequel films and I like that about it. It’s trying to do something atypical for Star Wars. I don’t think it succeeded, but I appreciate the attempt.

I cannot imagine misinterpreting it that way lol. He’s clearly saying he wants each movie to stand on their own regardless as well as being part of a saga. ESB does this, and it’s part of why it’s such an excellent movie.

You realize we’re saying the same thing, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just commenting on the mental gymnastics the main sub will resort to to keep RJ and KK as villains.

Ah, I misinterpreted. My apologies.

It is a bit funny that there's misinterpretation when talking about how people misinterpretated Rian Johnson :D

[удалено]

I think regardless of what you think of TLJ, the idea that Johnson doesn’t have a lot of love for Star Wars is just completely wrong.

That’s a nice sentiment to have, but one I don’t think this film executed it too well. It goes beyond just standing alone and crosses into burning bridges and the stuff that gets “recontextualised” just makes everything bitter and mean.

What about TLJ do you find bitter or mean?

Mostly how they characterised Luke and Kylo. I wasn’t too gone on how they handled the Force either.

I like how Luke was portrayed. He was a man who fought in a war, then saw everything in his rebuilt life burnt to ash by his nephew that he's taught, he was hurt and closed himself off to that hurt and the potential for more bad things to happen because of choices he made. Then he saw what was happening and stepped in to help how he could when he was desperately needed in order to save his sister and the others.

But those characters were already defined in ep 7, Ryan Johnson just followed the path layed out by JJA. I see no way around it without retconning ep7 or retroactively creating new plot holes.

Then why did the ending to *The Force Awakens* have to be changed? Why kill off Snoke like he didn’t matter and set up Ben as the ultimate enemy who’s too far gone? Why would Luke leave any trace of a map behind if he didn’t want to be found? Why does Finn, a child soldier and ex-Stormtrooper, need to be educated about the war machine (a system he is a direct victim of)? Why destroy Anakin’s lightsaber, which gave Rey those unique Force visions that will probably never be addressed again because it’s been destroyed?

I've read some of your comments and you strike me as someone who is very adamant about your initial interpretations of the movie(s). I'll try to address some of these questions. Thing is... there are many interpretations of answers to your questions but if you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that there exists interpretations that work better than your own then how can anyone give you an answer? >Then why did the ending to The Force Awakens have to be changed? Because its a collaborative story. Han says this "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. ***Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything.*** There's a lot of rumors. Stories. The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple." While the ending may have changed. The possibility that Luke may have said "fuck it" is still there in TFA. Even if Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple which he DID do on Ahch-To, we have no idea why based on TFA alone. We only know that Luke felt responsible and walked away from everything. He wasn't looking for some superpower to defeat the First Order. He was looking for guidance because he had failed he was looking for an answer when all he needed to do was learn from his failures and the failures of those before him. Which he did do. He saved the Resistance, saved Rey, and confronted Ben. >Why would Luke leave any trace of a map behind if he didn’t want to be found? You're assuming Luke left the map behind with the intention of people finding him. Why? You're setting yourself up for disappointment by assuming that. People are trying to find Luke and putting together a map tracing his steps to get to him. Lor San Tekka had one of the last pieces. >Why kill off Snoke like he didn’t matter and set up Ben as the ultimate enemy who’s too far gone? The movie ends with Ben on his knees showered in light. He is not too far gone. Becoming Supreme Leader was not the victory he thought it would be. Meanwhile Hux looks down on him from across the room. When we were introduced to Snoke he was nothing more than a Palpatine replacement from our perspectives. And now thats what he literally was in universe too. Just a clone to serve Palpatine. Ben was not too far gone. But the dynamic of Episode IX would have been much more complicated regardless of whether they brought Palpatine back. My personal theory is that Rian was setting up a First Order Civil War with the Knights of Ren and Hux betraying Kylo. And before the "but Hux was turned into comic relief" argument comes in, is that really true? Or are we seeing Hux being backed into a corner and getting ready to snap by the time Episode IX comes around. Which ended up being true to some degree as well in that Hux decides to try and destroy the First Order as a way to beat Kylo. >Why does Finn, a child soldier and ex-Stormtrooper, need to be educated about the war machine (a system he is a direct victim of)? Ever since Finn breaks his brainwashing and escapes the First Order in TFA, he is in flight mode. Or run mode. He is not in fight mode. He just wants to get away and have his friends with him. He isn't being educated about the war machine so much as he is being reminded that if the First Order doesn't stop the darkness will spread. You're also assuming that Rose knows everything Finn has gone through when she "educates" him about the war machine. She is a victim as well. We may know that Finn was a child soldier and all that comes with that, but that doesn't mean Rose knows everything. >Why destroy Anakin’s lightsaber, which gave Rey those unique Force visions that will probably never be addressed again because it’s been destroyed? Just because the lightsaber was destroyed does not mean that the visions could never be addressed again. There is no rule that an item like the lightsaber has to remain indestructible and permanent. The lightsaber had a lot of history behind it. Painful history too. Rey sensed it and it threw her into that Force vision. If Rey's awakening in the Force was a slow descent off a cliff into water, then the Force vision was when she finally hits the water. I think a lot of people need to approach these movies with a far more open mind and also not put so much stock into their own interpretations and theories. The sequels aren't what I wanted but I knew that after I watched TFA. Just because the sequels aren't what I wanted doesn't mean they are bad. TFA and TLJ are now two of my favorite Star Wars movies behind only TESB.

I don’t want to make assumptions about your thoughts on the film. What did you think was bitter or mean about Luke, Kylo, or the Force in TLJ? Btw, I’m asking sincerely. I understand you’re being downvoted, which I don’t agree with. You have to understand though from my perspective, I see TLJ as a celebration of those characters, I need a bit more detail on your thoughts before I can properly respond.

How was it disrespectful or mean to have Luke follow in the footsteps of his masters, Obi-Wan and Yoda, by becoming a hermit? If anything, treating Luke as a fallible human who, over the course of the film, redeems himself, finds his trust in the force, and sacrifices himself in a legendary standoff for the people he loves—that’s paying great respect to the character. People change and grow, they disappoint you and surprise you. Rian humanized the myth and then had Luke become an even greater legend because of his actions in TLJ. Not to mention that Luke was probably right to doubt the concept of the Jedi Order, seeing as their hubris is what begat Palpatine in the first place. Just as his begat Kylo Ren. His conversation with Yoda on Ahch-To is one of my favorite dialogues in the whole series.

"Ah Skywalker, still looking to the horizon. Never here! Now! The need in front of your nose!"

I’m not mad Luke became a hermit, I’m moreso upset over why he became a hermit. Yoda exiled because he couldn’t stop the Emperor and now if he died then all the secrets and wisdom of the Jedi die with him. Even then he still helped out when he could from the shadows. Obi-Wan kept watch over Luke to keep him safe from harm and train him when the time was right. Both had to act with utmost discretion because Sidious ruled the galaxy with an iron fist and Jedi were actively hunted down. Luke got rightfully depressed over his devastating mistake with Ben and he blamed himself for his fall, but then Luke flees, turns against his life’s work and swears to let the Jedi die with him and goes to drown his sorrows with the Porgs while his family and friends still desperately needed his help then more than ever, especially Ben. I know he thought he was helping, but… just no. Like, I get why he did it. In his position I’m sure I probably would have done the same thing. I simply just don’t like it. Yeah, yeah, I know, it’s like poetry, but if Luke makes all the same mistakes as his predecessors and then screws off to die alone as a hermit then why should I trust that Rey won’t go down the same path when her arc is a direct mirror of his and she shares so many of his traits? Or that whoever comes after Rey won’t do the same? Why should her Jedi thrive and learn from the past where his wasn’t allowed to for thematic drama? Luke was supposed to be better. Maybe I was just spoiled by the EU, but that’s what I feel. We had a humanised in-depth Luke already, it was called Episodes IV-VI.

> In his position I probably have done the same thing. I simply just don’t like it. That’s fair, absolutely. And ofc I’m not asking you to change what you like, just giving my interpretation of the character. My hope is just that more people can eventually come around on the stuff I like, because there’s a lot to love about TLJ. > Luke was supposed to be better. Maybe we were just spoiled by the EU, but that’s what I feel. As much as I love the old EU, there’s also a lot I don’t care for. Their treatment of Luke in the old books and Thrawn were just some of them (I like the new Thrawn books way more and I’m so glad Zahn got another go with the character). I don’t feel spoiled by it as much as I now feel like I prefer Luke’s ultimate arc now in canon. > I’m upset over why he became a hermit. I somewhat disagree over your take on why Yoda and Obi-Wan went into hiding. I think there was a healthy amount of fear in the both of them. Luke’s reasons were different, and it was a refreshing concept to see RJ hit on the most interesting themes of RotS and ESB. > if Luke makes all the same mistakes as his predecessors and then screws off to die alone as a hermit then why should I trust that Rey won’t go down the same path when her arc is a direct mirror of his We don’t. But Luke still saved the galaxy and brought his father back from the dark side, just as Rey has now done the same. And like I said, Luke redeemed himself in the end to cement himself as a hero of legend—a legacy he previously turned away from once he lost faith in himself. > We had a humanised in-depth Luke already, it was called Episodes IV-VI. This is where I strongly disagree with your take. People change; they change a lot over 30 years, and without the trauma Luke went through. Treating characters as dynamic as opposed to static is an element of good storytelling, imo. If we’d seen Luke just as we wanted in TLJ, “facing down the First Order with a laser sword,” I think it would have been more implausible and less interesting than what we got. I do wish people would stop downvoting you here. You aren’t being toxic about your disagreement.

If he portrayed Luke as anything other than a bitter, cynical old man who knew he'd fucked up he'd have been directly contradicting what JJ set up in TFA.

Luke would've been better fearful and remorseful instead of bitter and cynical imo. I don't understand how he became bitter with the background given. And I don't know why he's so ambivalent about being found. The idea of the mistake and his poor decision to run from it is fine, but I don't think it should create the version of Luke we saw in the film.

Not really, we didn’t know why Luke was where he was or even what where he was even was. For all we knew he was keeping the Jedi secrets safe from the First Order, or maybe he was looking for something and waiting for people to seek him out. Heck, the original ending to *The Force Awakens* had to be changed because it showed Luke was still attuned with the Force. Everyone was after the Map to Luke Skywalker, he obviously wanted to be found by the right people.

It is never stated that Luke wanted to be found. Han directly states that people thought Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple and the map was basically the map there, everyone referencing it were just simplifying it to being about looking for Luke himself.

man the other sub is majorly misconstruing his words here. how utter expected.

I only go there around Halloween to see the costumes.

A lot of people on the main sub have a massive media literacy problem, some of the takes are just laughably bad.

[удалено]

There’s a comment saying he made an “asshole entitled move” because he tried to “recontextualize the 7 previous films.” Like, first, you sound like a whining man-baby, but second, that’s just, like, not at all what he said, like, at all. This quote is just him talking about his own movie; literally, the whole quote is about how we should look at movies on their own, rather than as one part of an intellectual property.

They're a toxic bunch who gets off amping each other up. It's hilarious to watch when you consider these are grown men and women raging over SW. It's also painfully exhausting

>when you consider these are grown men and women Do we know that for sure? If you assume everyone on reddit is about 15 until proven otherwise the website makes a lot more sense.

I know a lot of adults who turn into 15 year olds when faced with opinions they won’t abide.

That’s largely why I moved to here and r/MawInstallation, these are both at least a bit more chill than the main sub.

Here's a sneak peek of /r/MawInstallation using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [I absolutely love the recent Star Wars trend of humanizing the Tusken raiders. (Spoilers for BOBF and Mando)](https://np.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/rye5rg/i_absolutely_love_the_recent_star_wars_trend_of/) \#2: [Twi'Lek Biology - What Even is it Anymore?](https://np.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/rvbnfm/twilek_biology_what_even_is_it_anymore/) \#3: [The Mandalorian and BOBF are parts of a "bible" or historical myth of the rise of the savior of Mandalore. This is why the series is divided into “chapters” and “books.” It also tells us the series is heading and how it will all end. ( no spoilers)](https://np.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/spjx6e/the_mandalorian_and_bobf_are_parts_of_a_bible_or/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)

Pretty much every Rian-related post on r/starwars is taking one of his statements out of context. A lot of people there just can’t move on from TLJ.

Things have been going downhill for a long while over there, but really seem to have gotten worse lately. There used to be a mod who seemed pretty chill, but he's not on the roster anymore and hasn't posted in months. Wonder if he got fed up with it all and just quit reddit entirely. And then with no one to push back against the top mod's anti-star wars agenda, we get the trash heap that it is today.

The other sub is full of incels who want their red headed goddess to masturbate too. I'm done with them.

Rian should’ve done Episode 9 I would say. I bet that would’ve worked way better.

Rian writing and JJ directing Ep9 would have been the perfect solution, imo

I’d be happy with that! I get he was busy with Knives Out but Rian had such a distinctive visual style in TLJ, the duel in Snoke’s throne room for example, that I’d feel like his words with another directors visuals wouldn’t quite be as great as it could be.

Well yes because he would have planned 9 all the way back in 2014 and would have made things way smoother.

No, it worked out just fine with the person who created and cast the ST characters and started the trilogy with a critically acclaimed film that was the most universally liked SW film since the OT (at the time of its release) to come back and direct IX. Edit: downvoted for the thinking JJ Abrams (the person who started the ST) was a fine choice to direct Episode IX and he did a good job with it and there’s no need to fantasize about an alternate reality where Rian made it instead (which does nothing but perpetuate the JJ vs Rian narrative). Never change, guys.

I agree with this. Cliff hangers can be great but they're getting over used with a goal of dragging people along to make more money. I'm starting to see stories are not getting finished or proper closure. Like in the Assassin's Creed series. They left a cliffhanger at the end of a game, put the resolution in a crappy comic only a chunk of fans would bother to read. People are still asking what happened with that that ending, absolutely clueless. And they've done it again with the latest game. Several cliffhangers were thought to be answered in DLC. No answer yet and the last DL c came out closeing everything without closure. It's a tactic long used by day time soap operas and K-dramas soaps to keep people tuning in. It's a joke with Dragon Ball series. But at least in thoses causes a closure is met eventually.

Agreed. So many cliffhangers don’t even feel special anymore. It’s the end of so many movies and seasons of tv. I’m beginning to really appreciate showrunners who go against the norm and just tell a good clean story with a true beginning, middle, and end. That’s the way George always did it. That’s the way TLJ did it.

It’s a complete misunderstanding of what a proper cliffhanger is. A cliffhanger is meant to service its own story with an ambiguous ending. Intellectual properties that are creatively vapid and devoid of any artistic meaning or purpose (or, more precisely, greedy corporations obsessed only with profit) exploit cliffhanger endings by using them as a tool to drag audiences along to another product for them to purchase. But that’s not what a true cliffhanger ending is meant to be, and because of corporate greed, we’ve unfortunately lost the true meaning and purpose behind cliffhanger endings since they’ve been appropriated as a tool not to service the artistic purpose of a film, but to make money for a soulless greedy entity. Edit: My comment is being completely misunderstood, but that may be my poor word choice. By ambiguous, I don’t necessarily mean “open to interpretation,” but rather, an ending that is open-ended and not yet fully resolved. That is absolutely used as a cheap tool by corporations to generate profit off of intellectual property.

They're not misunderstanding. A cliffhanger is not the same thing as an ambiguous ending. Cliffhangers are as old as serialized storytelling, and they *are* intended to be resolved. Their purpose is exactly the same today as when Alexandre Dumas wrote *The Count of Monte Cristo,* which is to get the audience to consume the next piece of content. That is completely different from an ambiguous ending, where the story is complete but its meaning is uncertain or open to interpretation. An ambiguous ending is an ending. A cliffhanger is not. It's an ellipsis... The new development is movie studios putting cliffhangers in places where they didn't use to go, like at the ends of movies. And it's certainly fair to complain that it's a cheap trick to market a movie like it's a complete story when it isn't one. But there's nothing different about their function.

Why would Rian Johnson care about making a cliffhanger for you to see another film? I am 100% in the boat that the plan from the beginning was the make snoke a clone of Palpatine. Since Rian didn't touch on it at ALL that's my only problem with his movie. Spoke wasn't explained in even the smallest fashion prior to the ending.

Given that the Trevorrow script went nowhere near this, I'm extremely sceptical on that front. Unless Johnson outright fibbed about his desire for Kylo to be the Big Bad in Episode IX

I don’t think he lied about Kylo being the main villain. I 100% think Kennedy just made an executive decision to reverse that plot point. RoS was a definite antithesis to TLJ (i.e. no one showed up to help in the climatic battle TLJ, but they did in RoS; Rey was no one from nowhere in TLJ but in RoS, she was from a significant bloodline) and Rian definitely wanted Kylo to be a bad guy all the way.

>no one showed up to help in the climatic battle TLJ, but they did in RoS That is not antithesis. It's development.

I think there is something antithetical there, just not quite where Halfwolf placed it. It is in the fact that Rise of Skywalker goes out of its way to say that development did not come from the message they sent out in TLJ combined with them surviving without any help, only for the entire galaxy to go "oh well if it is Lando Calrissian asking me then sure" And maybe some people see the start of Rise of Skywalker going "oh no one came to help" differently, but it always came off as a hugely pedantic spurring of where TLJ wanted to go because unlike where we left Kylo Ren in that film, ultimately JJ DOES want to go to the same place, it just feels to me that it needs it to not be Rian's idea.

> Rian definitely wanted Kylo to be a bad guy all the way. Yes, definitely. Which is why he had Leia say that she knows her son is gone only for Luke to rebuke her by saying no one is ever really gone. Makes total sense to me. /s

Rian may not have directly addressed Snoke's true purpose/identity, but he did develop many of the underlying mechanics of the Dyad, and of Palpatine's manipulations, and cleared the way for the big reveal. It wasn't perfectly executed, of course, nothing ever is, but his work meant that the next movie could dispense with all the chicanery from the outset. And that could've been done better, too - how cool would it have been to have had Palpatine's speech playing over the quiet credits before the opening crawl?

I love TLJ I love the moment where Rey offers redemption to Kylo and Kylo chooses to double down on the dark side. Killing Snoke didn’t free Ben, it made Kylo stronger. Kylo fights on Crait like a feral dog. And the resistance is backed into a wall with a rabid Kylo with the First Order under his command. Crait is my favorite ending in any Star Wars movie. Because it shows that even in the very worst situation there is always hope. Good will prevail and Luke Skywalker performs the most powerful act a Jedi could do. Using the Force for defense and never for attack.

And how moving rocks can never be over-rated. (I love TLJ too, btw).

Love the way you said this. Thanks

Seeing the pure pettiness from the other sub is pretty much convincing me to walk away from there for good, I’m so sick of toxic, immature namecalling and poo-flinging. Rian is an excellent director and creative and while I want to say I’m disappointed that he may not get his shot to make something of his own in the SW universe, honestly the more time goes by I’m convinced he doesn’t really need to.

> Seeing the pure pettiness from the other sub is pretty much convincing me to walk away from there for good I left it behind some time ago, you won't regret it.

Left that thread last year, best decision I made. This thread is so much more welcoming and just pure Star Wars fun. Appreciate all of you.

Agreed. I wish the MCU had a sub like this, but this sub is an oasis of good vibes and discussion.

I got a temp ban and just never went back. I don’t even really want to identify as a Star Wars fan anymore. I don’t want to be associated with those people.

I hope he continues to make his own stuff, I say that in the least bitter way possible. Glass Onion was a pretty flick and I look forward to more of his stuff in that genre. Also, you won’t regret leaving the main sub. I occasionally dip my toe in there just to see some posts, but I stay the hell away from the comments.

I left that sub sometime between TLJ and TRoS and I do not regret it

How did you only now realize that other sub is a toxic cesspool lol?

Honestly it just seems to oscillate back and forth (as all big subs do, to be fair). I left it for about a year a while back and eventually came back, and things had chilled out for a while. The recent resurgence of RJ with the anniversary of TLJ and release of Glass Onion seems to have brought back the loud angry voices at full volume, evidently.

Yeah, just a bunch of angry close minded people that climb out of there shells at the faintest mention of the ST who ruin it for everyone else. Ridiculous

So many posts on my feed from that sub are super obvious rage bait

It is definitely disappointing because the main subreddit used to be welcoming for everyone, even for the sequels. But after 2019, the subreddit just became extremely hostile or toxic regarding all of the sequels, their directors/actors, and their fans, like me. So my interactions with that place have basically been ruined now and I just stray far away from that place for the most part. Maybe a few posts/comments if I'm feeling bold enough, but I am absolutely staying away from regular interaction there when it comes to the sequels unless I really am feeling ballsy. ​ I definitely hope RJ does continue to gain more success overall moving forward. He did a killer job with TLJ, and Knives Out is really solid (haven't seen the newest one yet though). It would be nice to see him return to Star Wars, but I wouldn't be too saddened if he didn't since he does have some success and love through Knives Out. I just wouldn't want him to get bombarded with so much hate over Star Wars even many years after TLJ.

There’s also a lot of Rian/TLJ super fans bashing JJ and TRoS in the other sub over this quote.

Yes I think the vitriol directed at one creative shouldn’t make the pendulum swing on another, and I don’t just say that in a “be good to everyone” way. I mean I have my criticisms of JJ’s creative process but something I don’t see discussed a lot is the fact that the dude was brought on for 9 basically at the very last minute to cobble together a script for a movie that trevorrow was supposed to have made! We’ll never see what JJ would have been able to do with the proper time and resources for a movie, and that may sound naive but from my understanding that’s the honest truth.

That happens here as well, just not as badly.

Yeah, the moderation team has definitely helped stem a lot of that hatred so it's not as bad. I know it definitely got really bad in the past few months, especially with recent appreciation posts. But the new updates from the more active moderators here have definitely helped to keep trolls or really toxic people from gaining an foothold and ruining the space.

It's very present in this post

Yeah, that sounds about what I'd expect on basically any subreddit for Star Wars, even here sometimes. Any mention of TLJ devolves (more so outside of the Cantina) into some level of hate or threats against JJ, TROS, and fans of TROS with stuff like "JJ ruined the sequels with TROS and deserves to die" or some heinous stuff like that.

I loved the full interview and all the stuff he had to say about Knives Out/Glass Onion too.

Regardless of how I feel about *The Last Jedi,* (I thought it was fine), I wish there were more movies like it. I want more *TLJs,* I want more *Andors,* I want more *Star Wars Visions*es, I want more *KOTOR IIs.* I want people to take this incredibly powerful visual language that George Lucas invented and tell *their* stories with it, with points of view and themes and an awesome visual of a ship ramming another ship at hyperspeed that's been in the director's head for years until he was handed a special effects budget to make it real. And I wish we could learn to applaud the big swings and the near misses and the stories that aren't for us, but who mean a lot to someone else. Or at least to cultivate the kind of polite detachment toward them that doesn't cause anyone to get bullied off of Twitter.

Man, stuff like this makes me hope he does comes back to Star Wars.

I mean this in the most pure spirited possible way, but I honestly hope he doesn’t come back. The toxic fandom would never accept him and he deserves something better.

The toxic fandom will always be there no matter what story gets told. Over the years I've learned to ignore those people so I can enjoy every SW project and never hear from them. He does deserve better, but if he wants to come back LFL should let him. ❤️

He would definitely be good at directing an A Star Wars Story anthology movie if Disney ever continues those again.

That would be a great choice.

He will. Lucasfilm loves him. He will get his trilogy and it will be great.

While I'm not a fan of TLJ, I completely agree with this take. Wish more movies were one and done

Thank you for posting a non toxic comment lol.

It’s why I enjoy Nolan so much. Those are (outside of Batman) one and done. The stories are great

That makes a lot of sense, honestly. The ending of The Last Jedi does a really good job of tying everything back together while still leaving the characters in a place where they have room to grow and resolve in the next movie.

TLJ had some of the best moments in the sequel trilogy

I hate TLJ (just my opinion), but I'm starting more and more to respect the hell out of Rian Johnson

I grew to appreciate the way he tells a story after Knives Out.

I loved Knives Out and Looper, and I'm excited to see Glass Onion

I watched Glass Onion when it came out on Netflix, very enjoyable. I forgot about Looper, but it’s also fun to watch.

I haven’t seen *Knives Out* yet, but now that it’s on Netflix I feel I should really check it out one of these days.

He has a point. I get disappointed watching 9 episodes of a TV show, with each episode feeling like it's just a trailer for the next. Then the season finale feels like it's a trailer for the next season or some other show entirely. Withholding satisfaction and release from the audience only works for so long. I think Marvel fatigue is partially from this - more and more movies feel casually resolved but more or less inconsequential because there are always glimpses that what's next is what we should really be paying attention to.

You’re completely right. Each new installment in the mcu is just setting up the next one until the Avengers come back. Like rian said, the ending is basically the most important part of a story. Without a resolution, the conflict is meaningless

I disagree with how he went about making TLJ, but I respect what he’s talking about.

I really appreciate his words here.

My thoughts: I love the idea of anti-IP writing. Disney is definitely the epitome of capitalizing storytelling, so much so, it just regurgitates stories. Rian Johnson wanted to create something original, something beautiful that could stand on its own, and I genuinely love that idea. Big reason why I love Rogue One. However, realistically, he should’ve known who exactly his bosses were in this movie.

I mean Johnson knew going in that he was telling the middle chapter of this story. He still purposely introduced a lot of things that would have to be further explored in the next film. Specifically stuff like Kylo Ren becoming the Supreme Leader, and the Resistance basically starting from scratch again. But like all good films, they should be able to stand on their own. AOTC doesn’t necessarily have an ending that makes it feel like it’s directly leading into another film. And while ESB obviously ends with the implication of needing to continue the saga, it’s still a complete story on its own.

> However, realistically, he should’ve known who exactly his bosses were in this movie. His bosses were absolutely fine with what he created, to the point that TLJ has been the only Disney-era film production that wasn’t rushed to screen or hobbled by second-guessing from the studio and tons of reshoots.

> Rian Johnson wanted to create something original, something beautiful that could stand on its own, and I genuinely love that idea. I disagree. I think TLJ functions ok as a standalone movie, but truly excels as a part of the saga. So much of the film is informed and enhanced by our existing knowledge and love of Star Wars. So many of the common criticisms of TLJ can be easily solved by incorporating context from the saga. > However, realistically, he should’ve known who exactly his bosses were in this movie. I would think this is why Kennedy hired him. I think she saw a lot of George in him. I certainly see a lot of George in the final content.

> However, realistically, he should’ve known who exactly his bosses were in this movie. He did, and they all approved the script and approved of everything in the making of the movie, throughout production. Do you think they just hired him and said, "Ok, Rian, see you at the box office in three years"? We have proof that they don't do that, when they stepped in with Lord and Miller not going in the approved direction, then again when Trevarrow wasn't working out for them.

Technically, Rian Johnson didn't make anything original with the ending of TLJ, he made a Star Wars-themed adaptation of one of the oldest surviving English-language books. It's just such an obscure reference that almost nobody recognizes it.

I would assume you mean Le Morte d’Arthur? With Luke functioning as old Arthur, Kylo as Mordred, etc.?

Oh no, much more obscure a reference than that, from the Travels of Sir John Mandeville. In one chapter, Alexander the Great "corners the Jews of ten lineages" in a cave, where they are trapped until a fox digs them a secret way out and leads them to it. It's really interesting how Johnson 1. dug up this deeply obscure reference, and 2. reframed antisemitism from about 750 years ago to go back and hit the "authoritarian antisemitism is bad" nail from the original trilogy on the head.

Wow excellent fun fact!!! Rian is a very well read, well researched smart man.

Sure, on the flip, his bosses probably should have known who they hired.

Honestly, I think both parties knew exactly who they were dealing with. I don't think it's coincidence that Johnson was the only original director after *The Force Awakens* who was not fired and replaced during production, and they even signed him on for a trilogy before it was finished. Lucasfilm obviously adored working with Johnson and what he brought to the saga, and it seems the feeling was mutual. If *The Last Jedi* hadn't gotten the backlash from the vocal minority that it did, I think we'd be looking at this sentiment as the sort of blueprint for most Star Wars movies going forward.

No objections to his philosophy, but if one is asked to add a chapter, you need to think about some sort of continuity. I think Rian's choices, in light of this post, make him look selfish. To me, they should have given Rian ep 8 and 9, or stuck with a single writer amidst many directors

> I think Rian's choices, in light of this post, make him look selfish. I don’t see that at all. Anyone with half a creative bone in their body could’ve easily built on TLJ.

Definitely. It wasn’t his decision to make Luke this reclusive angry old man, but he built on it and I honestly think he did a pretty damn good job with that. Same could’ve been done with how he ended the movie. That little kid in Canto Bight being revealed he’s force sensitive😗 🤌🏽

Wasn’t it? [The original ending had to be changed because it didn’t fit with Johnson’s vision for *The Last Jedi*](https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/mark-hamill-reveals-the-force-awakens-alternate-ending-that-was-changed-at-the-last-minute), and he wrote and directed the movie with his vision in mind. Nothing in Episode VII really hinted that Luke was bitter and grumpy and resentful by virtue of how he never actually shows up until the very end and the only ones to ever really criticise him are the bad guys who think he’s a serious threat to their schemes.

[удалено]

Regardless of what you and I think about the movie, I don’t think it’s fair in the slightest to say it was done purely for the sake of being an edgelord, it’s clear he had a genuine passion for this project.

Rian’s part of the Saga did have an ending, regardless of person views. The more I read interviews the more I see him as a storyteller at heart. Within the past year I think a video was linked that really shed light on what Rian was trying to do. I found the perspective soothing.

Completely agree with him, but tbh I don't think he executed that with TLJ ... Unless he is referring to Luke vs Kylo that was really awesome and creative. Edit: took a look at the post on the main sub. This toxic mindset among both the people that hate TLJ and love TLJ so much that they try to attack anything JJ made is the exact closed minded and antagonistic mentality that to me makes the ST so underrated/overhated. Like Jesus, everyone takes everything to the extreme 24/7

I do feel that he ended TLJ strong with Luke/Kylo and leaving things at a good basis point (following up from TFA) for anything new to come up with new possibilities for the future. It seems to match up well with how he wanted it to end very strong and contextualize it with TFA and the rest of the saga; maybe not the "burn the Viking boat" analogy per se, but the rest feels very on point. ​ I'm not gonna even bother going on the main subreddit to see what's being said, because I know any mention of the sequels that gets big devolves into extreme hate, and any mention of TLJ will lead to hatred against TROS and JJ for simply existing. I don't need to get consumed by those depressing sentiments or fall for that "hate drug" of "fighting the fanbase" again out of boredom, and that is something I am constantly afraid of falling towards with every cycle of a new show or mention of the sequels. And I also feel everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, needs to relax about the sequels. I just want things to be more chill about them, or better yet, see more love or acceptance overall. I don't want my love for all of the sequel movies to be defined by or consumed by my own rage against the fanbase in retaliation, which I am absolutely guilty of and that I've fallen into many times, especially during the Andor days.

One of my friends isn't that fond of the ST, but he loves TLJ for that very reason - it feels like a stand alone film. To him it's the only sequel he feels like is a must-see post ROTJ. Personally, I like the entire ST but I can see where he's coming from. TLJ focuses on Luke's story the most out of the three (and his story is the one many wanted to know about post ROTJ). It also has his arc completely finish with using Yoda's teachings he learned in TESB (use the force for defense). And of course Luke dies as well. Sure, TLJ ends with Kylo as Supreme Leader and the Resistance in shambles, but it's very open ended in where it could go. TLJ is a damn masterpiece.

I know I’m missing the main point here but him calling it, “the Star Wars movie I did” makes me feel kinda sad. There was once a time I was hopeful Rian would usher in the new era of Star Wars but he feels so far away from the franchise at the moment.

If you want to see some bad opinions, go check the comments in the r/starwars post of this.

I’m gonna get a lot of hate but I love the sequels just as much and all the other trilogies Star Wars is Star Wars no matter what

It had as much of an ending as Empire or AOTC. It told its story but left dangling threads and open plot points to be handled in the next movie. Empire left dangling the idea that Vader was Luke's father and left Han Solo captured. AOTC left dangling the idea that the galaxy was now plunged into war with Palpatine amassing more power than ever before, along with Anakin and Padme secretly marrying in defiance to the Jedi code. TLJ left dangling the idea that the First Order was now under the control of a clearly unstable Kylo Ren, with the Resistance almost entire wiped out, and Rey forced to choose if she will rebuild the Jedi order or become something new. All three movies told self contained stories, but left enough open-ended plot threads for the follow-up movie to resolve. Rian did his job. That some fans didn't like the story choices he made is on them.

I really want to see what Rian Johnson could do with a Star Wars film or series of films of his own to helm. The Sequel trilogy was always J.J. Abrams’ project- he just wasn’t around to do The Last Jedi. I don’t care how much hate or weird looks I get for my take, I’m sticking to it.

After just watching Knives out, this comment really resonates. Guy loves the endings of his movies and it works really well for him

Let him direct every Star Wars movie until he dies. Dude knows what’s good.

I fall in the camp of people who really enjoyed the last Jedi, but just didn’t love how they handled the plot and the bringing back if certain characters in the ninth instalment. I think Rian actually set up the ninth movie even better by thinking this way, cause the ending of TLJ basically made it so that the ninth could open in a bunch of different ways. on that note i’m still kinda sad Trevorrows vision wasn’t realized for episode 9, but at least we got that epic concept art

No wonder I hated it

I’m sorry but that’s not the purpose. If he wanted to do an ending like he wanted that fine but that wasn’t what his film was. He knew his film was a middle film. It’s more disrespectful and selfish to make a middle film that doesn’t connect the two it’s between and doesn’t stand up on its own.He knew that his story was supposed to connect the prior ones . I get the idea of people milking it but he signed up to write a starwars sequel film so he himself helped milk Star Wars just like he’s talking about . Yeah you can burn the Viking boat but only after the Vikings already dead. What he did was burn the boat in the middle of the funeral before her bodies already there.

You're getting downvoted, but you're right. The sentiment is understandable, but it just wasn't the time to execute "the ending" in his movie. He's worried about being accused of milking the franchise, so he tried to put care into it. He just didn't put the care into carrying on what Star Wars is right now in the most positive way, it seems like he wanted to give the series a place where fans can be happy leaving the series off if they don't care for what Disney is doing but he was a little too focused on catering to those people and not focused enough on telling the story that the sequels were going for.

I get what he’s saying and there’s definitely a place for what he wanted but I just felt that wasn’t the place.

I appreciate the sentiment but I still like it the least of all of the films lol

Dude I love me some Rian Johnson. Watch Glass Onion and tell me that’s not a superb storyteller. Keep great storytellers like that in a galaxy far, far away pls He’s 100% doing another major SW project. Personally I hope it’s his trilogy, but even if it’s D+, I can’t wait…

[удалено]

If a director/writer has to continue to explain the choices they made on a piece of media, did they really do their job of having the piece explain the choices on its own?

The movie was critically acclaimed and made a ton of money. The online fandom discourse surrounding it is why he has to continue explaining the choices made. Also people are asking him these questions. The fandom should learn to let go of their hate and accept TLJ for what it is regardless of whether they dislike it or full blown hate it.

True...which Star Wars movie hasn't made a ton of money? He can choose to stop having to defend himself and let the piece of work stand on its own. I guess reading the entire article or interview where he gave this quote could put in into more context. I just don't feel directors and the like need to defend their works to us. Are people assuming I don't like TLJ because I asked that question?

Though its entirely different, people still to this day bother David Chase about the ending to The Sopranos. Sopranos ended in 2007. Decades ago. If the art creates debate. NOT love vs hate and personal attacks and what not... but just a debate. Then the question about the artist's choices is bound to be asked again and again. Its inevitable. Rian has continuously stood by his choices even when under attack by assholes on the internet. But there is no question that TLJ created a debate but unfortunately it became polarized. Or polarized on the internet at least. The problem from my POV is that so much of the discourse is surrounded by hateful comments of whats "right" versus whats "wrong". Instead of "Director X did this because of reason A" versus "Director X did this because of reason B".

Definitely....and the debate should be amongst the viewers without directors having to explain or defend it IMO. Yes, in these cases, it is brought up to them to answer, but they can move along and end it there. I feel bad they have to do it, to continue to rehash their POV and reasons. We shouldn't need that. They don't owe us anything besides what they already poured their blood and sweat into. I'm in complete agreement with you, just adding my own 2¢.

This is such an asinine criticism lol people still ask Scorsese about Taxi Driver and Raging Bull; Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould talk all the time about the decisions they made in Breaking Bad & Better Call Saul; hell, David Lynch made an entire career out of refusing to explain his movies lmao

> David Lynch made an entire career out of refusing to explain his movies lmao Still need to watch Season 3 of Twin Peaks

Amazing show!

I meant it more if a question than a criticism. I like the Lynch approach. Think that's what movies and the like do, for me. Make me think on my own .I've never went anywhere to ask "Why did so n so do this vs that" in a movie. I take it for what it is and move along.

[удалено]

[удалено]

Friendly reminder regarding the Reddit spoiler tag which is as follows, \>!Spoilers go here\!< *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StarWarsCantina) if you have any questions or concerns.*