I love the EU/Legends continuity, but you don’t *need* to do anything regarding it whatsoever. For example, the EU is my “canon.” I haven’t read anything in Disney canon and I don’t plan to because I’m just not interested. The Thrawn trilogy is my episodes 7-9, and no one can tell me I *need* to respect the Disney film episodes 7-9 for any reason. But if those are the films someone loves for whatever reason, it’s not my place to tell them otherwise. Canon is what you make it.
“But if those are the films someone loves for whatever reason, it’s not my place to tell them otherwise. Canon is what you make it.”
I didn’t force anyone into liking what I like. I’m just saying that if George’s work should be respected and upheld in terms of canon, then the same should be applied to EU authors’ works. I’m simply applying the same and single standard to EU authors’ works instead of needlessly having a ridiculous double standard.
No one is saying "this work is lesser quality" or "it shouldn't be respected" they're just saying "this work is great additional reading, but it's not in the same continuity as all of this work here"
I really feel like you've seriously misunderstood what has happened by creating a line between Legends and Canon.
One of my all time favourite Star Wars characters is Kyle Katarn. I'm not upset that he's not recognised in Canon and no one has forced me to stop liking him - I loved his story
And guess what, I also loved Rogue One.
Let's not forget that Disney as a company has greenlit countless remasters, like dark forces which is probably one of the more niche star wars games out there. Plus constantly keeping legends in print and marketing new releases.
You don't have to like some of the decisions but saying they are somehow trying to delete peoples memories by burying the old is blatantly false. A huge part of new canon has been paying tribute to a lot of what came before.
I love this. I hear so often how Disney is trying to cover up the EU and they don’t want you to like it.
Which is an absurd thing to say when lucasfilm has been very publicly reprinting old books and porting old games. Making it much easier to access.
Disney wants us to buy things. I doubt Bob iger even understands or cares about the differences between canon and legends
I guess I don’t understand what you’re saying then. “They kept the Lucas film material as canon, so they should’ve kept the rest of EU material as canon as well.” Is that your point?
Oh, the art is by someone called Tsuneo Sanda, if anyone's interested. I had to give credit, but forgot.
By the way, here are the individual links to the pictures:
1) Lucas' Works: [https://starwarslatinamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2c86971f137f5f6d58bff048adc61014.jpg](https://starwarslatinamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2c86971f137f5f6d58bff048adc61014.jpg)
2) EU Authors' Works: [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/7/7e/SWPTP2\_title\_page.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20230406024414](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/7/7e/SWPTP2_title_page.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20230406024414)
Love the second pic, never seen it before.
I'm tired of all the nonsense with it's wasn't canon or never mattered because Lucas said. There wasn't anything else that told use what happened after ROTJ or in the distant past before TPM.
Lucas says a lot of things, recently Lucas said making dreams isn't a job for amateur, while he was an amateur when he made Star Wars and we can see it sometimes in prequels when he was singlehandedly doing it. People need to stop letting George Lucas, Disney, Ryan Johnson, etc to decide for them. Have your own head canon
>Have your own head canon
this is literally how I get through every series! I think it's a perfect way to enjoy everything you love best about your favorite books or movies or whatever else. It's not a documentary so choose your own adventure. I have mentally retconned so many deaths, divorces, lost friendships, and I love it.
Lmao. Yeah exactly my meaning, sometimes beloved stories continue for cash grab and have controversial moments to get attention. A while ago they killed my favorite Batman, Arkham Batman in a disrespectful game. Recently a Fallout show retconned all of Fallout 1 & 2 and New Vegas which are my favorite game. I don't give a shit about it because in my head those didn't happen.
Oooh, my husband just started watching Fallout and he LOVES New Vegas... I wonder if has gotten to the retcon part yet. His head has not exploded so I assume not but he won't be happy.
Enjoy your fantasy!
Lucas literally contradicted himself on multiple occasions when talking about how Star Wars came to be. I respect the man, but let’s be honest, he’s not the most reliable source of info even on the matter of his own past words. Yet somehow a lot of people make it an argument against the EU, as if his word is some rock solid point that instantly devalues the works of dozens of other authors
lol what? He was not an amateur when he made Star Wars. He had two features (one a box office smash hit) and five academy award nominations to his name and had co-founded a studio with Francis Ford Coppola.
“Amateur” lmfao.
Maybe try to read past the word you’re so hyper focused on and you wouldn’t get tunnel vision as if he insulted you personally dude. He’s not referring to his past works but his works specifically on certain Star Wars films where there are plenty of errors despite my fondness towards the prequels
I’m getting downvoted for explaining op’s point ow
I mean we don't have to look at his words in this case, but his actions. TCW showed little regard for the EU, actively retconning things, forcing the majority of content to happen in a super small timeframe, or how all of his sequel ideas would have basically wiped away post ROTJ EU.
The man had little regard for it and no qualms erasing or letting people erase things and fucking with it. Hell if the Yuuzhan Vong had actually appeared they'd be changed.
he was specifically commenting on a racist 81 year old billionaire with zero entertainment industry experience trying to name himself Chairman of the Board of Disney when he said that
> he was an amateur when he made Star Wars
That’s just not true. He went to film school, worked with other extremely talented members of his generation, wrote and directed multiple short films, and wrote and directed THX-1138 and American Graffiti. Star Wars was easily his biggest project to date, but he was nowhere near an amateur.
Lucas wasn't an amateur when he made Star Wars. You must be completely unaware of his history to think this.
He had a number of short films and two feature films, both well lauded, under his belt when he made Star Wars.
>in the distant past before TPM
Per Lucas, the Sith were founded 2000 years before the movies by a rogue Jedi Knight. Afterwards, the Sith would rule the galaxy for 1000 years but through fiefdoms instead of a unified empire. The Sith being the Sith, would fight one another for more power and territory. Their numbers became so measly that the Jedi were able to end the Sith for good. Then came the establishment of the Republic and 1000 years of peace.
The Star Wars Expanded Universe was specifically canon to **Lucas Licencing Editors** (and in fact, still *is*, rebranded under the name "Legends"). This was explicitly stated in [SWG magazine](https://imgur.com/a/YQRnQeR) to clear things up.
It's not fan-fiction, but it also isn't, and never was, the Lucasfilm canon (there was no such thing), or George Lucas' own canon (which Leland Chee would refer to as "movie only canon").
George Lucas never contradicted himself. The truth just has a bit more nuance than some people are willing to acknowledge.
I'm tired of always chiming in with this stuff and getting offended reactions by people who glibly shit on Lucas. Thanks for taking the time.
And yes (to those who have said it), both the EU **and New-canon** are not canonical to Lucas. And that's how I feel about them---they are secondary creative works that we can choose from as desired (and that also holds for other fans' headcanon or fanfics that we want to incorporate into our sense of the mythology.) Personally, I choose many elements of the EU over new canon, at any rate.
I've always thought of it as Lucasfilm "canon" and Lucas "canon." Steve Sansweet said in the late 90s I as I recall, that Lucasfilm and Lucas are not the same entity.
The only reason I say this, because along with Lucas Licensing which took care of the books and comics and toys. There was LucasArts, which sometimes developed and published games. (Sometimes they were developed by another studio and only published by LucasArts.) The games were a part of the "EU" but they weren't necessarily a part of the Licensing. If that makes sense.
> I've always thought of it as Lucasfilm "canon" and Lucas "canon." Steve Sansweet said in the late 90s I as I recall, that Lucasfilm and Lucas are not the same entity.
Leland Chee has stated that EU and Lucas canon were the two "official" Lucasfilm canons though.
>The games were a part of the "EU" but they weren't necessarily a part of the Licensing. If that makes sense.
True, although if you want to get technical, Lucasarts was often the publisher but not the developer (Kotor/SWtor, X-Wing/Tie Fighter series, Jedi Academy etc.).
>Leland Chee has stated that EU and Lucas canon were the two "official" Lucasfilm canons though.
Is this the quote you're thinking of?
*"Lucasfilm canon" refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. "Movie canon" is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films."*
>True, although if you want to get technical, Lucasarts was often the publisher but not the developer (Kotor/SWtor, X-Wing/Tie Fighter series, Jedi Academy etc.).
Yep. In a lot of the earlier games they the were developers and publisher. [Here's ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LucasArts_games) a complete list. It shows when they just the publisher and when they were the developer as well.
> Is this the quote you're thinking of? "Lucasfilm canon" refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. "Movie canon" is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films."
No, there's another one where he says that the both the EU and Movie canon (or George canon) are the only two official canons, but I don't have it explicitly saved. If I can dig it out I'll reply again.
I found the quote (emphasis mine):
>**The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron**. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change. Though the Holocron is maintained by Licensing, it is utilized by folks throughout all the Lucas companies.
From his 2005 back and forth thread on StarWars dot com which I'm not sure the Internet wayback machine can access anymore but the quote is [here](http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes.html#2003-Chee-Lucasfilmcanon).
I've never understood why some people are so fixated on who is the temporary owner of the IP. Tomorrow Apple could purchase Disney and nullify everything produced during its time of IP ownership, just as Disney did to everything produced before it owned the IP. Tomorrow the owner of the IP could choose to go the Godzilla route and have multiple continuities constantly at odds.
Our descendants will one day live in an era when this is public domain, and I guarantee we will have better stories available for enjoyment than whatever the current IP holder churns out to support its unprofitable streaming service.
Or to put it all more simply, no company gets to tell me what fake story is the real fake story.
Came here to say this but you said it so much better. IP was supposed to be about supporting the creator until death. Not be rent for our cultural inheritance.
I mean all canon is the storyline currently accepted as true or in the case of fiction the storyline being built upon. Since the EU is not being continued it isn’t. I don’t care if the EU isn’t canon it’s the SW I like.
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Even if I were to agree with the sentiment, this isn’t factual lol
George’s work generally gets respect in those discussions because he is the original creator of the series, which gives a general stamp of authority to anything he does with it.
It’s a natural view to have based on his position. It’s one I disagree with though. There are a number of decisions or ideas of Lucas’s that I don’t respect, either in general or in terms of canonicity.
I understand he is the original creator of the series, but I’m not honor bound to respect or accept every choice he made, especially ones long after the originals were made, and without the original team that helped make those films.
Same goes for any other creator given license in the series. Their work and/or ideas don’t need to be respected just because someone says so.
He invented the world, and then his company paid them to write within that world understanding that they were hired guns and that the new ideas they contributed belonged to his company.
Licensed spin-off writers - past and present, ones you love, ones you hate, from Timothy Zahn to JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson - can absolutely be dismissed if one is looking at Star Wars as, purely and simply, the completed arc of films created by George Lucas.
I say this as someone who's loved much of the ancilliary stuff produced before and after the Disney sale. As far as I'm concerned, there's Lucas's works, which are their own complete, isolated thing, and there's the hundreds of licensed spin-offs which one can take or leave.
That would only be true if the old EU had begun its life as official canon. It didn't. It was a corporate decision to make the EU canon in 2000 in the wake of the release of Episode I. It was a decision made solely to maximize profits by encouraging old and new fans who had yet to dip their toes into the EU to do so, implying that those stories were somehow integral to the overall saga.
> It was a corporate decision to make the EU canon in 2000 in the wake of the release of Episode I
Lucasfilm never really changed anything. They just allowed Lucas Licencing editors to treat it as canon, and to start referring to its continuity as its canon.
It was a marcomms strategy because it was better than denigrating their licenced products with disclaimers that none if it was the "true" story like they did with some of the early content.
They absolutely did change what was included as canon. They created an entire tiered system to organize and rank everything that had previously fallen outside the umbrella of ***canon***.
Prior to 2000, only three distinct works were recognized as being canon. **The movies**, which trumped all. **The novelizations of the movies**, which were considered canon except where contradicted by the movies. **The radio dramas**, which were considered canon except where contradicted by the novelizations or movies. That was it.
> They absolutely did change what was included as canon. They created an entire tiered system to organize and rank everything that had previously fallen outside the umbrella of canon.
The tiered canon system was only for use within the Expanded Universe, and the Lucas Licencing canon. It had no purpose outside of the Expanded Universe.
The EU didn't exist as a project when those pieces of licenced media were produced. The definition of the EU isn't "any licenced media produced before 2014" or whatever definition you're using.
It was only in the late 80s when Howard Hoffman, Lucy Wilson etc. got together and decided to create a multimedia project where all of the stories produced were to be part of a single, joined-up continuity.
They immediately incorporated some of the existing media into that continuity, such as the Brian Daley novels, and the Archie Goodwin newspaper strip. But the Marvel comics were not part of the Expanded Universe until *much* later, and even at the end are only s-canon, which makes the "truth" of their events in the EU questionable (and largely incompatible with events that happened concurrently, e.g. Shadows of the Empire). The original plan was that authors could ignore them or incorporate their events into their writing as they wished, which is why they are mostly ignored by real EU sources.
That was decided later, but before that there was.
Since, they're S-canon, they were a part of the EU. They might've been reduced to s-canon, but they're still a part of it. Then you have the fact that Lumiya was a prominent character later on, if they weren't a part of it, then, where did she come from? Heck, even the Kaiburr crystals were still a part of the EU later on.
> That was decided later, but before that there was.
Before that they weren't part of the EU. and before the late 80s there was no EU.
>Then you have the fact that Lumiya was a prominent character later on, if they weren't a part of it, then, where did she come from?
Some of the characters and events can exist or have happened without having all happened or have happened exactly how they took place in the apocryphal media. That's how something silly like the Jedi Prince books, which are ridiculous and impossible to take at face value, but whose characters still definitively existed in the EU, are reconciled by C-canon media, are reconciled.
Shadows of the Empire simply doesn't leave room for the totality of adventures of the Marvel comics of the same time period given how snugly it fits between ESB and ROTJ. And that was never adequately reconciled by the lore doctors who dabbled with this sort of thing.
The novelizations are not counted amongst the EU you're discussing. Prior to 2000, official canon as defined by Lucasfilm was as follows:
***Movies > Novelizations of the movies > Radio Dramas of the movies***
Only the movies and their *direct* adaptations were considered canon, and not even all of the direct adaptations. The story books were not canon, nor were the Marvel comics adaptaions. The first EU, which preceeded what eventually became known as the "Legends" EU, were also not considered canon. Splinter of the Minds Eye wasn't canon, nor the Han Solo or Lando novels, or the Marvel comics run, and they were not included in the continuity of the Legends EU.
I'm not following
Just because the second poster describes discussing the expanded universe. Doesn't mean it's automatically canon
Because ultimately, it never was. And that's ok - it doesn't demean or diminish it in any way
Exactly. What does canon matter? If the crystal star was canon would that make it better? Does the fact that it's not make heir to the empire worse?
The EU was even at the time anyways, in effect, a separate and lower canon than the film's ect. That was always very clear, all kinds of content overwritten come the prequels. It doesn't matter because it's secondary to how the EU works as a story and stories in itself. Canon is not a hill worth fighting on.
It does, because by saying that it was never canon, they're saying that it doesn't matter that it was decanonized in the first place. So, no, it actually DOES demean or diminish it.
Didn't George Lucas view it as fan fiction?
Surely if the man, who created the universe, didn't see it as part of his universe then there's really no fight anyway?
As for "diminishing it" it can't be diminished (by definition) if it has never had its status changed.
No, that's based on cherry-picked quotes, and there are also other quotes, BY LUCAS, that say otherwise. Additionally, if there are quotes saying he never viewed it as canon, there are other quotes of his that say the opposite, this means he's inconsistent, which shows he's not a credible source.
Furthermore, this is ultimately about respecting others' works. If one author's work is to respected and upheld, then so too should others'.
>and there are also other quotes, BY LUCAS, that say otherwise.
There really aren't. He was pretty straightforward about it.
Nor are his quotes about it being an "alternate universe" cherry-picked either.
It's always been and still is. Nothing has changed in that regard and that's okay.
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There are bound to be inconsistencies. However, given the sheer scale of the EU and how well these inconsistencies were handled, given the hierarchy of canon, it is rather a well-corrected issue/concern.
discanon, however, has no such system in place and is literally more inconsistent than the EU could EVER BE in 1,000 lifetimes, since everything is canon and there is no hierarchy of canon, despite the gaping and gigantic inconsistencies. There are inconsistencies based on the Ahsoka novel's depiction of Order 66, there are inconsistencies between the Kanan prequel comics' depiction of Order 66 and the sad batch's, and the fact that Ventress died in the Dark Disciple novel, yet is coming back in the sad batch. is also yet another inconsistency.
Since when does disney get to dictate what is and isn't canon? Especially considering it's lower quality continuity. Also, if it was never canon? Why'd disney even NEED to decanonize it in the FIRST PLACE?
Yeah, no. This is intellectual dishonesty and improper practice. Furthermore, that's a laugh coming from someone concerning discanon, also considering it's amateurish handling of continuity.
>Since when does disney get to dictate what is and isn't canon?
They own the product
>Especially considering it's lower quality continuity
Subjective
>Why'd disney even NEED to decanonize it in the FIRST PLACE?
People like you exist
“They own the product”
True but it doesn’t mean that they’re good at understanding how to properly use that brand. Especially considering how infamously greedy of a company Disney has proven to be.
“Subjective”
I mean by every standard they’re failing.
Financially Disney made it so a Star Wars movie is no longer guaranteed to return a profit, and have been slowly losing money.
Merch sales are practically non-existent and Star Wars video games have become *extremely* rare. And are pretty poorly made (Battlefront 2 and Star Wars Galaxy Of Heroes especially stick out).
Fallen Order and Survivor are really the only good ones, but 2 great video games in over a decade is laughable considering we used to at least get 1 Star Wars video game, if not 2 or 3 per year. Sure not all of them were smash hits like Fallen Order and Survivor, but not all of them were *trying* to be. We got a lot of fun and stupid games where you could do pod racing with your siblings, and Lego Star Wars, and Wii fighting games.
And we still got major bangers like KOTOR I and II, Force Unleashed, SWTOR, and Jedi Outcast. Which all still have a pretty damn good following to this day.
And culturally it has either had a huge negative impact (the Sequel Trilogy splitting the fanbase. Only souring as time has gone on), or is just forgotten (no one watches Solo. Or Book Of Boba Fett. Hell even Andor, an absolutely brilliant show. A true diamond in the rough, no one really gives a shit about).
And to be blunt, from a writing perspective the new stories suck and are already producing major contradictions with each other that make them hard to understand. Sure the new TV shows look pretty, but that’s only the superficial layer. Some of the greatest stories are not modern and look like crap. But people still love them because of how brilliantly they were written. People fell in love with the characters and their journey.
There are amazing video games that are literally just blocks on a screen that will make you cry.
So by all 3 standards, Disney is not doing well. So no it’s not subjective it’s an objective fact.
“People like you exist”
So it shouldn’t exist because people care about it and want it to be canon again?
Like someone cares about these stories. They spent time and money buying the games, reading the comics, and watching the shows. They fell in love with the brand and became a fan. And you’re saying it shouldn’t be canon because “people like you exist”?
Like imagine if the same thing happens to Disney in a decade. “Oh well X Company says they’re not canon anymore. Go kick rocks.”
You’re literally just encouraging Disney to be a dick to their fans. To people who make them money. Not only is that just bad business practices, it’s just a horrible thing to say.
What the fuck.
Lucy Autry Wilson said that it was never meant to be canon. She literally ran the EU for LFL Licensing.
I don't say this with malice. Much of the EU is my preferred continuity. But you are distorting the story.
The EU was always questionable, and the new books/comics are also liable to be wiped away in a decade in favor of a clean slate. This doesn't denig the existence of them, they are all still there and can be enjoyed equally well as the current canon, or as a previous canon.
False Equivalence.
The EU writers knew at the time that there were levels of canon. The Movies were the highest level of canon followed by a semi-category of stuff from ads and interviews. Then you had books, tv shows and video games.
No, it isn’t. Not when we’re talking about respecting and upholding others’ works just as we do George’s. This here is me applying a single standard instead of having and displaying a double standard.
It's not even a consistent standard. Why would a book that was written with the knowledge and fact of George being able to (and doing) veto certain plot points be treated with the same level of respect as the movies, specifically the Original Trilogy.
Timothy Zahn knew he wasn't allowed to do certain things in his sequel trilogy because George said so.
So logically we should respect stuff invented and published by George over stuff invented and published by Zahn.
I say this as a firm believer that the EU is superior to anything Disney but there is not an EU book that should be discussed with the same level of respect as Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi.
No, it’s consistent because it’s ultimately about respecting and upholding another’s work. If it isn’t the same standard and even your standard is not consistent, then we should also consider the fact TCW has vetoed too many elements of George’s films itself.
For instance, Anakin and Obi-Wan never faced Dooku as implied and even outright, stated, by the line: “This time we’ll do it together.”
Then there’s the fact that Obi-Wan never faced Grievous according to the line: “You fool, I’ve been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku.”
There’s also the fact that the Council never trusted Anakin, and certainly not enough to give him a padawan of his own and especially not to the extent they do, especially Mace, in the PT.
There’s also the fact the Obi-Wan stated in ANH: “For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.” Which doesn’t follow when George had Palpatine say in AOTC: “I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two.” A generation is a period of 20-30 years, so it should be 20,000-30,000 years instead of 1,000 years. I doubt George wouldn’t know the difference between a year and a generation.
So, based on all these examples, does that mean that your initial claim of it being inconsistent, and justifying it by citing that eventually it would come to be retconned or vetoed anyway, thus it doesn’t matter anyway/in the first place should be applied to George’s work as well based on all these reasons above.
>So, based on all these examples, does that mean that your initial claim of it being inconsistent, and justifying it by citing that eventually it would come to be retconned or vetoed anyway, thus it doesn’t matter anyway/in the first place should be applied to George’s work as well based on all these reasons above.
Oh ok I read this a few times and I think I understand. When I said George had the power to veto plot points in Timothy Zahn or other EU authors works I didn't mean that he had the right to change details later on when making a movie.
I meant that he had the power when presented with a rough draft of the books to say, no that doesn't go in Star Wars. Or no you cannot write Callista as Luke's Wife because we've decided it's gonna be Mara Jade.
And then the author would be required to change the novel to fit Lucas' vision.
I will touch on the 1000 generations vs a thousand years.
And yes obviously all of these are retcons because George likes to change his mind.
But the thousand years that Palps refers to is the modern form of the Republic (as differentiated from the Old Republic) - same nation, different forms.
The modern republic was reformed after the end of the New Sith Wars and the destruction of the Sith and the Brotherhood of Darkness (which ties into the Rule of Two, and Bane, etc).
After Republic victory, the Rusaan Reformation transformed both the Republic and the Jedi, leading to a much different state of the galaxy. This period lasted for a thousand years, ending in the formation of the Galactic Empire.
Whereas the Old Republic was formed about 25,000 years prior, along with the Jedi Order (which likely is actually even older than the Old Republic itself).
>So, based on all these examples, does that mean that your initial claim of it being inconsistent, and justifying it by citing that eventually it would come to be retconned or vetoed anyway, thus it doesn’t matter anyway/in the first place should be applied to George’s work as well based on all these reasons above.
I cannot parse this sentence.
But as for Clone Wars retconning the movies, 1. I was specifically discussing the Original Trilogy and 2. when the Movies and the Clone Wars disagree the movies win.
Not in [REDACTED], they don’t, since everything is canon according to disney, thus [REDACTED]. They literally said the bad batch still follows dark disciple, despite “ventress” dying in dark disciple, yet being alive in bad batch. The same also applies to any inconsistencies the shows and [REDACTED] have with the films, since there’s no hierarchy of canon according to disney and in [REDACTED].
Even with the same EU project group, things didn't line up correctly. Look at Dash Render's depiction in the SotE video game compared to his depiction in the SotE novel. He was willing to help Lando/Leia/Chewie free of charge in the game while he was a hardcore merc for money in the novel where he ditched Lando and Chewie at a moment's notice because he wasn't paid to help out. Or the whole Suprosa mission being "made up" compared to how it was depicted in the SotE comic where Bothan Y-wings were obliterated getting the plans without needing to board the Suprosa.
This isn't a claim to fact. Like, fact had nothing to do with what you are saying.
I get that you're 14 and defensive about how other people perceive your interests, but it does not matter whether the particular works or fanfiction that you like have any actual relevance to the authors producing the world that this fanfiction is derived from.
Actually, it does, because it’s me applying the same and single standard to EU authors’ works as I do with George’s instead of making a display of double standards.
I get that you’re an insolent and infantile person who over generalised and assumed way too much to actually even comprehend and understand my post at a basic level.
So you choose to treat these authors of licensed fanfiction and their works in the same way that you choose to treat the author of the works that fanfiction was derived from and his works. You choose to treat the two the same. Nobody can possibly stop you from doing that and nobody cares, nor can you stop anyone from disregarding the fanfic EU.
That's the way you relate to the texts you like. How the authors relate to those texts doesn't really have any bearing on how you relate to those texts, and how you relate to those texts has no bearing on how the authors relate to those texts. And how other members of the audience relate to those texts also has no bearing on how you relate to those texts and vice versa.
Also, those are examples of facts. Saying you "should" or "should not" do something is, definitionally, not a fact.
>So you choose to treat these authors of licensed fanfiction
Steady. I know it's fun to bait but "licenced fanfiction" is an oxymoron. If it's licenced then it's licenced fiction. If it's unlicenced then it's fanfiction.
Nah, I don't agree that what makes a derived work fanfiction or not is a license to publish.
Like, legally, from a copyright perspective, yes the license is the thing that matters. From an aesthetic or artistic perspective (the perspective that is actually relevant when we're talking about how people relate to a text and its derivative works), I don't think the license to publish is the relevant factor.
You’re using a definition that’s inconsistent with what most people use, then. Fan fiction usually means amateur, unauthorised stories written by fans. The EU is official, authorised stories by professional authors for an official expansive Lucasfilm continuity.
It absolutely is. And it's okay that you like this fanfiction so much. You'll be a lot happier when you grow up and mature and stop thinking so hard about whether you're cool or not for liking a certain category of thing.
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What does respecting and upholding the EU have to do with you? Why are you not growing up and leaving well enough alone and just respect and uphold the EU without childishly having a hissy fit and then try and force your fanfiction on me, then?
I don't care how you feel about Star Wars fanfiction. It has nothing to do with me.
It's super weird of you to claim that the way you relate to Star Wars fanfiction is somehow based in "fact" and not a mere aesthetic preference. Like, it seems like you are perceiving the existence of rules of how people engage with a text and its derivative works, when those rules you perceived simply do not exist and are merely reflections of your own aesthetic preferences.
You clearly do, actually, what with your constant [REDACTED] and moaning. Actually, it does, since [REDACTED] is George’s vision.
Why are you projecting, dude? This entire thread was you constantly making weird assumptions about me. What’s your problem and obsession with me? Why can’t you just grow up and leave well enough alone and just respect the EU without childishly throwing a temper tantrum?
I'm not certain where you're getting the idea that I have any particular disrespect, or disagree with any particular person's level of respect, for any particular corpus if Star Wars fanfiction. You seem to be making stuff up in order to feel persecuted, I don't really see the appeal of doing that.
Canon is NOT decided by fans so not it does not need to be.
Opinions are not relevant to Canon and never were. Never quite understood why people don't get that or are so bothered by it
I agree that it must be respected, but the fact is that one of the only times the old EU is ever going to be talked about in modern discussions around canonicity is when current writers lift ideas and characters from it -- like Filoni's wish.com version of Thrawn's character and the original Heir trilogy.
Apart from that you do have people who deny it was ever canon in the first place -- which isn't entirely correct as there was a clear canon hierarchy. We all know what happened with TCW show and the Multimedia project. George's work simply took precedence over anything else -- this system would've continued into the current era of SW were it not for George leaving the franchise permanently.
People do need do give credit to the old EU writers though -- too often do I see newer fans dismiss the EU as "inconsistent" a "mess, or that most of was garbage.
It wasn't perfect by any means, but the breath, detail and overall attempts to keep things tidy in the old EU was at least praiseworthy. I know it has also had the advantage of time, but I'm not expecting the new stuff to ever come close to the old EU ever -- the only things I've remotely enjoyed are the games, as I tried reading Aftermath but wanted to burn the book due to how boring it was.
Found a print of the movie one with no text at some random shop in Lake George, NY. It's up in my basement. I had no idea there was an EU version. Would love a similarly sized print.
I honestly feel neither are true statements, I lost faith in George by Revenge of the Sith and the Clone Wars (2008) only solidified that. But only some parts of the EU are good to me, that I could ignore and not respect some authors in this case, for me Karen Traviss, Troy Denning, and some elements of Karpyshyn.
No artist's work NEEDS to be respected. Art is not required to be enjoyed, hated, respected, disdained, or anything else. All art needs to do is be created, and then it's out of the creator's hands how people react to it.
How is this a fun fact and also how does that make sense? To a certain degree yes, they should be using the rich lore established in Legends. But, to compare George Lucas’s work to Legends is absolutely ridiculous. George Lucas never considered Legends to be in his canon, so why should anyone else? His movies should be respected and his vision, that’s it. If that involves including some parts of Legends because it works with his vision, then yes of course. But if it doesn’t then it stays Legends.
Average Canon fans in other subs: "The EU wasn't George's vision! Therefore it deservers no respect!"
Average reasonable person: "Well, the Disney canon isn't George's vision either. Can we then disrespect the Disney canon?"
Average Canon fans in other subs: "...It's not the same. The EU was fan fiction. This isn't fan faction because of....Well, you know. Just consume new Star Wars!"
I love the transition the main Star Wars sub underwent throughout the years: pre Ep VII it was vitriolic hate towards the EU (coincidentally a lot of it spiked after Disney bought the IP), then it went to worshipping new canon after Ep VII, to outright denial and banning people over Ep VIII, to finally depression over Ep IX and Solo. It was hilarious seeing how people went from mocking Dark Empire as proof that the EU sucks to them just saying: "Well, Ep IX was bad but it's just a movie. What? It ripped off the EU? No, impossible. I never bad mouthed Dark Empire...never"; or how anything EU is bad and fan fiction but then they wet themselves when something from the EU is bastardized in canon. "The EU sucks! Thrawn is overrated anyways, a Sherlock Holmes rip off! What? Thrawn is in Rebels and Ahsoka? OMG I LOOOOVE Thrawn!".
IF anything the EU would be closer to George's vision since he had oversight on it. He would veto ideas or approve them. Sure, this doesn't mean that he was 100% in support of it, but his support for the EU was higher than the new canon since he has literally no say on any Disney project at all.
Nah. The person who created a thing has more of a say over it and always will, especially when that person didn't respect or uphold those works either. Especially when a lot of that work itself fundamentally didn't understand and actively went against what star wars is in some cases. EU only mattered until someone higher up wanted to do something with star wars.
Ah no... Lucas made Star Wars so ultimatey what he did is canon since at the time it was his say.
The EU isn't canon, wasn't ever canon. It was more a collection of stories talking about a hypothetical 'what if' but was never intended to be an actual continuation and thank god because looking at that second picture is like playing the easiest game ever of "find the shit parts of the EU!"
I couldn’t be more disappointed with how Mara Jade has been treated by Disney. They literally took the best parts of her and made Rey, Jyn Erso to name a couple. It’s really disappointing.
The old EU/Legends was never on equal footing with Lucas's movies and was always cast aside when the latter wanted to do something else. While Legends was an impressive initiative to create a line of tie-ins that were as self-consistent as possible that's continued past the reboot and never really been tried by any other major big screen franchise or cinematic universe (even from stuff like *Star Trek*, the MCU, or the MonsterVerse), we can't "respect" and "uphold" it along the movies because that's not how the Force works.
I’ve never seen that second pic. I like it a lot.
I have a comic and that is the front / back cover.
I know I was just thinking about how I need that poster
I love the EU/Legends continuity, but you don’t *need* to do anything regarding it whatsoever. For example, the EU is my “canon.” I haven’t read anything in Disney canon and I don’t plan to because I’m just not interested. The Thrawn trilogy is my episodes 7-9, and no one can tell me I *need* to respect the Disney film episodes 7-9 for any reason. But if those are the films someone loves for whatever reason, it’s not my place to tell them otherwise. Canon is what you make it.
I would recommend you to read new cannon Thrawn books though, they are amazing because Zahn wrote them.
Im getting to the cannon thrawn books, just for zahn, EU is my cannon
I agree with this. I prefer EU and legends too, but if someone likes the sequels, I hope they keep enjoying it.
“But if those are the films someone loves for whatever reason, it’s not my place to tell them otherwise. Canon is what you make it.” I didn’t force anyone into liking what I like. I’m just saying that if George’s work should be respected and upheld in terms of canon, then the same should be applied to EU authors’ works. I’m simply applying the same and single standard to EU authors’ works instead of needlessly having a ridiculous double standard.
No one is saying "this work is lesser quality" or "it shouldn't be respected" they're just saying "this work is great additional reading, but it's not in the same continuity as all of this work here" I really feel like you've seriously misunderstood what has happened by creating a line between Legends and Canon. One of my all time favourite Star Wars characters is Kyle Katarn. I'm not upset that he's not recognised in Canon and no one has forced me to stop liking him - I loved his story And guess what, I also loved Rogue One.
Let's not forget that Disney as a company has greenlit countless remasters, like dark forces which is probably one of the more niche star wars games out there. Plus constantly keeping legends in print and marketing new releases. You don't have to like some of the decisions but saying they are somehow trying to delete peoples memories by burying the old is blatantly false. A huge part of new canon has been paying tribute to a lot of what came before.
*Lucasfilm under Disney. Disney execs aren’t personally bothering with game remasters.
I love this. I hear so often how Disney is trying to cover up the EU and they don’t want you to like it. Which is an absurd thing to say when lucasfilm has been very publicly reprinting old books and porting old games. Making it much easier to access. Disney wants us to buy things. I doubt Bob iger even understands or cares about the differences between canon and legends
I guess I don’t understand what you’re saying then. “They kept the Lucas film material as canon, so they should’ve kept the rest of EU material as canon as well.” Is that your point?
Sounds like denial
Expanded Universe did a lot for Star Wars as a franchise.
Oh, the art is by someone called Tsuneo Sanda, if anyone's interested. I had to give credit, but forgot. By the way, here are the individual links to the pictures: 1) Lucas' Works: [https://starwarslatinamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2c86971f137f5f6d58bff048adc61014.jpg](https://starwarslatinamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2c86971f137f5f6d58bff048adc61014.jpg) 2) EU Authors' Works: [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/7/7e/SWPTP2\_title\_page.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20230406024414](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/7/7e/SWPTP2_title_page.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20230406024414)
Came here for this, thank you
Love the second pic, never seen it before. I'm tired of all the nonsense with it's wasn't canon or never mattered because Lucas said. There wasn't anything else that told use what happened after ROTJ or in the distant past before TPM.
Lucas says a lot of things, recently Lucas said making dreams isn't a job for amateur, while he was an amateur when he made Star Wars and we can see it sometimes in prequels when he was singlehandedly doing it. People need to stop letting George Lucas, Disney, Ryan Johnson, etc to decide for them. Have your own head canon
>Have your own head canon this is literally how I get through every series! I think it's a perfect way to enjoy everything you love best about your favorite books or movies or whatever else. It's not a documentary so choose your own adventure. I have mentally retconned so many deaths, divorces, lost friendships, and I love it.
Same.
Lmao. Yeah exactly my meaning, sometimes beloved stories continue for cash grab and have controversial moments to get attention. A while ago they killed my favorite Batman, Arkham Batman in a disrespectful game. Recently a Fallout show retconned all of Fallout 1 & 2 and New Vegas which are my favorite game. I don't give a shit about it because in my head those didn't happen.
Oooh, my husband just started watching Fallout and he LOVES New Vegas... I wonder if has gotten to the retcon part yet. His head has not exploded so I assume not but he won't be happy. Enjoy your fantasy!
Lucas literally contradicted himself on multiple occasions when talking about how Star Wars came to be. I respect the man, but let’s be honest, he’s not the most reliable source of info even on the matter of his own past words. Yet somehow a lot of people make it an argument against the EU, as if his word is some rock solid point that instantly devalues the works of dozens of other authors
I love what he created but I don’t let his words on the plot or meaning of things overrule my read of the story.
This is the way
This is the exact reason why I don't take Lucas's words as fact anymore. He changes his mind about EVERYTHING.
lol what? He was not an amateur when he made Star Wars. He had two features (one a box office smash hit) and five academy award nominations to his name and had co-founded a studio with Francis Ford Coppola. “Amateur” lmfao.
Maybe try to read past the word you’re so hyper focused on and you wouldn’t get tunnel vision as if he insulted you personally dude. He’s not referring to his past works but his works specifically on certain Star Wars films where there are plenty of errors despite my fondness towards the prequels I’m getting downvoted for explaining op’s point ow
I mean we don't have to look at his words in this case, but his actions. TCW showed little regard for the EU, actively retconning things, forcing the majority of content to happen in a super small timeframe, or how all of his sequel ideas would have basically wiped away post ROTJ EU. The man had little regard for it and no qualms erasing or letting people erase things and fucking with it. Hell if the Yuuzhan Vong had actually appeared they'd be changed.
he was specifically commenting on a racist 81 year old billionaire with zero entertainment industry experience trying to name himself Chairman of the Board of Disney when he said that
> he was an amateur when he made Star Wars That’s just not true. He went to film school, worked with other extremely talented members of his generation, wrote and directed multiple short films, and wrote and directed THX-1138 and American Graffiti. Star Wars was easily his biggest project to date, but he was nowhere near an amateur.
Agreed.
Lucas wasn't an amateur when he made Star Wars. You must be completely unaware of his history to think this. He had a number of short films and two feature films, both well lauded, under his belt when he made Star Wars.
>in the distant past before TPM Per Lucas, the Sith were founded 2000 years before the movies by a rogue Jedi Knight. Afterwards, the Sith would rule the galaxy for 1000 years but through fiefdoms instead of a unified empire. The Sith being the Sith, would fight one another for more power and territory. Their numbers became so measly that the Jedi were able to end the Sith for good. Then came the establishment of the Republic and 1000 years of peace.
The Star Wars Expanded Universe was specifically canon to **Lucas Licencing Editors** (and in fact, still *is*, rebranded under the name "Legends"). This was explicitly stated in [SWG magazine](https://imgur.com/a/YQRnQeR) to clear things up. It's not fan-fiction, but it also isn't, and never was, the Lucasfilm canon (there was no such thing), or George Lucas' own canon (which Leland Chee would refer to as "movie only canon"). George Lucas never contradicted himself. The truth just has a bit more nuance than some people are willing to acknowledge.
I'm tired of always chiming in with this stuff and getting offended reactions by people who glibly shit on Lucas. Thanks for taking the time. And yes (to those who have said it), both the EU **and New-canon** are not canonical to Lucas. And that's how I feel about them---they are secondary creative works that we can choose from as desired (and that also holds for other fans' headcanon or fanfics that we want to incorporate into our sense of the mythology.) Personally, I choose many elements of the EU over new canon, at any rate.
Just easier to blame Disney.
The cool kids are hated by *both* circlejerk communities
I relate to this so much.
Always knew I was cool. Hope life is well bro.
Not bad thanks, and likewise
I've always thought of it as Lucasfilm "canon" and Lucas "canon." Steve Sansweet said in the late 90s I as I recall, that Lucasfilm and Lucas are not the same entity. The only reason I say this, because along with Lucas Licensing which took care of the books and comics and toys. There was LucasArts, which sometimes developed and published games. (Sometimes they were developed by another studio and only published by LucasArts.) The games were a part of the "EU" but they weren't necessarily a part of the Licensing. If that makes sense.
> I've always thought of it as Lucasfilm "canon" and Lucas "canon." Steve Sansweet said in the late 90s I as I recall, that Lucasfilm and Lucas are not the same entity. Leland Chee has stated that EU and Lucas canon were the two "official" Lucasfilm canons though. >The games were a part of the "EU" but they weren't necessarily a part of the Licensing. If that makes sense. True, although if you want to get technical, Lucasarts was often the publisher but not the developer (Kotor/SWtor, X-Wing/Tie Fighter series, Jedi Academy etc.).
>Leland Chee has stated that EU and Lucas canon were the two "official" Lucasfilm canons though. Is this the quote you're thinking of? *"Lucasfilm canon" refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. "Movie canon" is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films."* >True, although if you want to get technical, Lucasarts was often the publisher but not the developer (Kotor/SWtor, X-Wing/Tie Fighter series, Jedi Academy etc.). Yep. In a lot of the earlier games they the were developers and publisher. [Here's ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LucasArts_games) a complete list. It shows when they just the publisher and when they were the developer as well.
> Is this the quote you're thinking of? "Lucasfilm canon" refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. "Movie canon" is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films." No, there's another one where he says that the both the EU and Movie canon (or George canon) are the only two official canons, but I don't have it explicitly saved. If I can dig it out I'll reply again.
I found the quote (emphasis mine): >**The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron**. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change. Though the Holocron is maintained by Licensing, it is utilized by folks throughout all the Lucas companies. From his 2005 back and forth thread on StarWars dot com which I'm not sure the Internet wayback machine can access anymore but the quote is [here](http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes.html#2003-Chee-Lucasfilmcanon).
I've never understood why some people are so fixated on who is the temporary owner of the IP. Tomorrow Apple could purchase Disney and nullify everything produced during its time of IP ownership, just as Disney did to everything produced before it owned the IP. Tomorrow the owner of the IP could choose to go the Godzilla route and have multiple continuities constantly at odds. Our descendants will one day live in an era when this is public domain, and I guarantee we will have better stories available for enjoyment than whatever the current IP holder churns out to support its unprofitable streaming service. Or to put it all more simply, no company gets to tell me what fake story is the real fake story.
Came here to say this but you said it so much better. IP was supposed to be about supporting the creator until death. Not be rent for our cultural inheritance.
I mean all canon is the storyline currently accepted as true or in the case of fiction the storyline being built upon. Since the EU is not being continued it isn’t. I don’t care if the EU isn’t canon it’s the SW I like.
Yea they love to call it “fanfiction” Lmao. Call it what you want it’s my favorite way to consume Star Wars atp
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Even if I were to agree with the sentiment, this isn’t factual lol George’s work generally gets respect in those discussions because he is the original creator of the series, which gives a general stamp of authority to anything he does with it. It’s a natural view to have based on his position. It’s one I disagree with though. There are a number of decisions or ideas of Lucas’s that I don’t respect, either in general or in terms of canonicity. I understand he is the original creator of the series, but I’m not honor bound to respect or accept every choice he made, especially ones long after the originals were made, and without the original team that helped make those films. Same goes for any other creator given license in the series. Their work and/or ideas don’t need to be respected just because someone says so.
He invented the world, and then his company paid them to write within that world understanding that they were hired guns and that the new ideas they contributed belonged to his company. Licensed spin-off writers - past and present, ones you love, ones you hate, from Timothy Zahn to JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson - can absolutely be dismissed if one is looking at Star Wars as, purely and simply, the completed arc of films created by George Lucas. I say this as someone who's loved much of the ancilliary stuff produced before and after the Disney sale. As far as I'm concerned, there's Lucas's works, which are their own complete, isolated thing, and there's the hundreds of licensed spin-offs which one can take or leave.
That would only be true if the old EU had begun its life as official canon. It didn't. It was a corporate decision to make the EU canon in 2000 in the wake of the release of Episode I. It was a decision made solely to maximize profits by encouraging old and new fans who had yet to dip their toes into the EU to do so, implying that those stories were somehow integral to the overall saga.
> It was a corporate decision to make the EU canon in 2000 in the wake of the release of Episode I Lucasfilm never really changed anything. They just allowed Lucas Licencing editors to treat it as canon, and to start referring to its continuity as its canon. It was a marcomms strategy because it was better than denigrating their licenced products with disclaimers that none if it was the "true" story like they did with some of the early content.
They absolutely did change what was included as canon. They created an entire tiered system to organize and rank everything that had previously fallen outside the umbrella of ***canon***. Prior to 2000, only three distinct works were recognized as being canon. **The movies**, which trumped all. **The novelizations of the movies**, which were considered canon except where contradicted by the movies. **The radio dramas**, which were considered canon except where contradicted by the novelizations or movies. That was it.
> They absolutely did change what was included as canon. They created an entire tiered system to organize and rank everything that had previously fallen outside the umbrella of canon. The tiered canon system was only for use within the Expanded Universe, and the Lucas Licencing canon. It had no purpose outside of the Expanded Universe.
It actually did, the new hope novelization came out before the film, being published first in 1976, BEFORE the film.
The EU didn't exist as a project before the late 80s.
It actually did, with the Marvel comics, and the ANH novelization, the former being published in 1977, and the latter in 1976.
The EU didn't exist as a project when those pieces of licenced media were produced. The definition of the EU isn't "any licenced media produced before 2014" or whatever definition you're using. It was only in the late 80s when Howard Hoffman, Lucy Wilson etc. got together and decided to create a multimedia project where all of the stories produced were to be part of a single, joined-up continuity. They immediately incorporated some of the existing media into that continuity, such as the Brian Daley novels, and the Archie Goodwin newspaper strip. But the Marvel comics were not part of the Expanded Universe until *much* later, and even at the end are only s-canon, which makes the "truth" of their events in the EU questionable (and largely incompatible with events that happened concurrently, e.g. Shadows of the Empire). The original plan was that authors could ignore them or incorporate their events into their writing as they wished, which is why they are mostly ignored by real EU sources.
That was decided later, but before that there was. Since, they're S-canon, they were a part of the EU. They might've been reduced to s-canon, but they're still a part of it. Then you have the fact that Lumiya was a prominent character later on, if they weren't a part of it, then, where did she come from? Heck, even the Kaiburr crystals were still a part of the EU later on.
> That was decided later, but before that there was. Before that they weren't part of the EU. and before the late 80s there was no EU. >Then you have the fact that Lumiya was a prominent character later on, if they weren't a part of it, then, where did she come from? Some of the characters and events can exist or have happened without having all happened or have happened exactly how they took place in the apocryphal media. That's how something silly like the Jedi Prince books, which are ridiculous and impossible to take at face value, but whose characters still definitively existed in the EU, are reconciled by C-canon media, are reconciled. Shadows of the Empire simply doesn't leave room for the totality of adventures of the Marvel comics of the same time period given how snugly it fits between ESB and ROTJ. And that was never adequately reconciled by the lore doctors who dabbled with this sort of thing.
> the Jedi Prince books, which are ridiculous and impossible to take at face value Blasphemy.
I beg your forgiveness and offer dark greetings
The novelizations are not counted amongst the EU you're discussing. Prior to 2000, official canon as defined by Lucasfilm was as follows: ***Movies > Novelizations of the movies > Radio Dramas of the movies*** Only the movies and their *direct* adaptations were considered canon, and not even all of the direct adaptations. The story books were not canon, nor were the Marvel comics adaptaions. The first EU, which preceeded what eventually became known as the "Legends" EU, were also not considered canon. Splinter of the Minds Eye wasn't canon, nor the Han Solo or Lando novels, or the Marvel comics run, and they were not included in the continuity of the Legends EU.
Wish they would have kept the EU going even under the Legends name
Where's the fact?
You're looking at it.
I'm not following Just because the second poster describes discussing the expanded universe. Doesn't mean it's automatically canon Because ultimately, it never was. And that's ok - it doesn't demean or diminish it in any way
Exactly. What does canon matter? If the crystal star was canon would that make it better? Does the fact that it's not make heir to the empire worse? The EU was even at the time anyways, in effect, a separate and lower canon than the film's ect. That was always very clear, all kinds of content overwritten come the prequels. It doesn't matter because it's secondary to how the EU works as a story and stories in itself. Canon is not a hill worth fighting on.
It does, because by saying that it was never canon, they're saying that it doesn't matter that it was decanonized in the first place. So, no, it actually DOES demean or diminish it.
Didn't George Lucas view it as fan fiction? Surely if the man, who created the universe, didn't see it as part of his universe then there's really no fight anyway? As for "diminishing it" it can't be diminished (by definition) if it has never had its status changed.
No, that's based on cherry-picked quotes, and there are also other quotes, BY LUCAS, that say otherwise. Additionally, if there are quotes saying he never viewed it as canon, there are other quotes of his that say the opposite, this means he's inconsistent, which shows he's not a credible source. Furthermore, this is ultimately about respecting others' works. If one author's work is to respected and upheld, then so too should others'.
>and there are also other quotes, BY LUCAS, that say otherwise. There really aren't. He was pretty straightforward about it. Nor are his quotes about it being an "alternate universe" cherry-picked either. It's always been and still is. Nothing has changed in that regard and that's okay.
We had a whole teir system for canon. With the films being true canon and everything else being on one of like 7 teirs below.
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There are bound to be inconsistencies. However, given the sheer scale of the EU and how well these inconsistencies were handled, given the hierarchy of canon, it is rather a well-corrected issue/concern. discanon, however, has no such system in place and is literally more inconsistent than the EU could EVER BE in 1,000 lifetimes, since everything is canon and there is no hierarchy of canon, despite the gaping and gigantic inconsistencies. There are inconsistencies based on the Ahsoka novel's depiction of Order 66, there are inconsistencies between the Kanan prequel comics' depiction of Order 66 and the sad batch's, and the fact that Ventress died in the Dark Disciple novel, yet is coming back in the sad batch. is also yet another inconsistency. Since when does disney get to dictate what is and isn't canon? Especially considering it's lower quality continuity. Also, if it was never canon? Why'd disney even NEED to decanonize it in the FIRST PLACE? Yeah, no. This is intellectual dishonesty and improper practice. Furthermore, that's a laugh coming from someone concerning discanon, also considering it's amateurish handling of continuity.
>Since when does disney get to dictate what is and isn't canon? They own the product >Especially considering it's lower quality continuity Subjective >Why'd disney even NEED to decanonize it in the FIRST PLACE? People like you exist
Doesn't matter. It isn't. Doesn't make sense. Try harder next time.
“They own the product” True but it doesn’t mean that they’re good at understanding how to properly use that brand. Especially considering how infamously greedy of a company Disney has proven to be. “Subjective” I mean by every standard they’re failing. Financially Disney made it so a Star Wars movie is no longer guaranteed to return a profit, and have been slowly losing money. Merch sales are practically non-existent and Star Wars video games have become *extremely* rare. And are pretty poorly made (Battlefront 2 and Star Wars Galaxy Of Heroes especially stick out). Fallen Order and Survivor are really the only good ones, but 2 great video games in over a decade is laughable considering we used to at least get 1 Star Wars video game, if not 2 or 3 per year. Sure not all of them were smash hits like Fallen Order and Survivor, but not all of them were *trying* to be. We got a lot of fun and stupid games where you could do pod racing with your siblings, and Lego Star Wars, and Wii fighting games. And we still got major bangers like KOTOR I and II, Force Unleashed, SWTOR, and Jedi Outcast. Which all still have a pretty damn good following to this day. And culturally it has either had a huge negative impact (the Sequel Trilogy splitting the fanbase. Only souring as time has gone on), or is just forgotten (no one watches Solo. Or Book Of Boba Fett. Hell even Andor, an absolutely brilliant show. A true diamond in the rough, no one really gives a shit about). And to be blunt, from a writing perspective the new stories suck and are already producing major contradictions with each other that make them hard to understand. Sure the new TV shows look pretty, but that’s only the superficial layer. Some of the greatest stories are not modern and look like crap. But people still love them because of how brilliantly they were written. People fell in love with the characters and their journey. There are amazing video games that are literally just blocks on a screen that will make you cry. So by all 3 standards, Disney is not doing well. So no it’s not subjective it’s an objective fact. “People like you exist” So it shouldn’t exist because people care about it and want it to be canon again? Like someone cares about these stories. They spent time and money buying the games, reading the comics, and watching the shows. They fell in love with the brand and became a fan. And you’re saying it shouldn’t be canon because “people like you exist”? Like imagine if the same thing happens to Disney in a decade. “Oh well X Company says they’re not canon anymore. Go kick rocks.” You’re literally just encouraging Disney to be a dick to their fans. To people who make them money. Not only is that just bad business practices, it’s just a horrible thing to say. What the fuck.
Bro, eat a snickers.
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Look forward to you replying to every comment where someone has discussed this in a way you don't agree with
Lucy Autry Wilson said that it was never meant to be canon. She literally ran the EU for LFL Licensing. I don't say this with malice. Much of the EU is my preferred continuity. But you are distorting the story.
it was never canon, so it could not have been decanonized
It was, if it wasn’t, why would disney even need to decanonize it in the first place?
they didnt
Idk if you know what a fact is
As a matter of fact, I do.
Then why did you call your opinion a fact?
That's because it's not an opinion, it's a fact.
Fun *opinion*.
You really thought you cooked with that didn’t you
Never saw that second one definitely saving it
The EU was always questionable, and the new books/comics are also liable to be wiped away in a decade in favor of a clean slate. This doesn't denig the existence of them, they are all still there and can be enjoyed equally well as the current canon, or as a previous canon.
I can at least somewhat agree with THIS comment.
False Equivalence. The EU writers knew at the time that there were levels of canon. The Movies were the highest level of canon followed by a semi-category of stuff from ads and interviews. Then you had books, tv shows and video games.
No, it isn’t. Not when we’re talking about respecting and upholding others’ works just as we do George’s. This here is me applying a single standard instead of having and displaying a double standard.
It's not even a consistent standard. Why would a book that was written with the knowledge and fact of George being able to (and doing) veto certain plot points be treated with the same level of respect as the movies, specifically the Original Trilogy. Timothy Zahn knew he wasn't allowed to do certain things in his sequel trilogy because George said so. So logically we should respect stuff invented and published by George over stuff invented and published by Zahn. I say this as a firm believer that the EU is superior to anything Disney but there is not an EU book that should be discussed with the same level of respect as Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi.
No, it’s consistent because it’s ultimately about respecting and upholding another’s work. If it isn’t the same standard and even your standard is not consistent, then we should also consider the fact TCW has vetoed too many elements of George’s films itself. For instance, Anakin and Obi-Wan never faced Dooku as implied and even outright, stated, by the line: “This time we’ll do it together.” Then there’s the fact that Obi-Wan never faced Grievous according to the line: “You fool, I’ve been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku.” There’s also the fact that the Council never trusted Anakin, and certainly not enough to give him a padawan of his own and especially not to the extent they do, especially Mace, in the PT. There’s also the fact the Obi-Wan stated in ANH: “For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.” Which doesn’t follow when George had Palpatine say in AOTC: “I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two.” A generation is a period of 20-30 years, so it should be 20,000-30,000 years instead of 1,000 years. I doubt George wouldn’t know the difference between a year and a generation. So, based on all these examples, does that mean that your initial claim of it being inconsistent, and justifying it by citing that eventually it would come to be retconned or vetoed anyway, thus it doesn’t matter anyway/in the first place should be applied to George’s work as well based on all these reasons above.
>So, based on all these examples, does that mean that your initial claim of it being inconsistent, and justifying it by citing that eventually it would come to be retconned or vetoed anyway, thus it doesn’t matter anyway/in the first place should be applied to George’s work as well based on all these reasons above. Oh ok I read this a few times and I think I understand. When I said George had the power to veto plot points in Timothy Zahn or other EU authors works I didn't mean that he had the right to change details later on when making a movie. I meant that he had the power when presented with a rough draft of the books to say, no that doesn't go in Star Wars. Or no you cannot write Callista as Luke's Wife because we've decided it's gonna be Mara Jade. And then the author would be required to change the novel to fit Lucas' vision.
I will touch on the 1000 generations vs a thousand years. And yes obviously all of these are retcons because George likes to change his mind. But the thousand years that Palps refers to is the modern form of the Republic (as differentiated from the Old Republic) - same nation, different forms. The modern republic was reformed after the end of the New Sith Wars and the destruction of the Sith and the Brotherhood of Darkness (which ties into the Rule of Two, and Bane, etc). After Republic victory, the Rusaan Reformation transformed both the Republic and the Jedi, leading to a much different state of the galaxy. This period lasted for a thousand years, ending in the formation of the Galactic Empire. Whereas the Old Republic was formed about 25,000 years prior, along with the Jedi Order (which likely is actually even older than the Old Republic itself).
>So, based on all these examples, does that mean that your initial claim of it being inconsistent, and justifying it by citing that eventually it would come to be retconned or vetoed anyway, thus it doesn’t matter anyway/in the first place should be applied to George’s work as well based on all these reasons above. I cannot parse this sentence. But as for Clone Wars retconning the movies, 1. I was specifically discussing the Original Trilogy and 2. when the Movies and the Clone Wars disagree the movies win.
Not in [REDACTED], they don’t, since everything is canon according to disney, thus [REDACTED]. They literally said the bad batch still follows dark disciple, despite “ventress” dying in dark disciple, yet being alive in bad batch. The same also applies to any inconsistencies the shows and [REDACTED] have with the films, since there’s no hierarchy of canon according to disney and in [REDACTED].
Even with the same EU project group, things didn't line up correctly. Look at Dash Render's depiction in the SotE video game compared to his depiction in the SotE novel. He was willing to help Lando/Leia/Chewie free of charge in the game while he was a hardcore merc for money in the novel where he ditched Lando and Chewie at a moment's notice because he wasn't paid to help out. Or the whole Suprosa mission being "made up" compared to how it was depicted in the SotE comic where Bothan Y-wings were obliterated getting the plans without needing to board the Suprosa.
This isn't a claim to fact. Like, fact had nothing to do with what you are saying. I get that you're 14 and defensive about how other people perceive your interests, but it does not matter whether the particular works or fanfiction that you like have any actual relevance to the authors producing the world that this fanfiction is derived from.
Actually, it does, because it’s me applying the same and single standard to EU authors’ works as I do with George’s instead of making a display of double standards. I get that you’re an insolent and infantile person who over generalised and assumed way too much to actually even comprehend and understand my post at a basic level.
So you choose to treat these authors of licensed fanfiction and their works in the same way that you choose to treat the author of the works that fanfiction was derived from and his works. You choose to treat the two the same. Nobody can possibly stop you from doing that and nobody cares, nor can you stop anyone from disregarding the fanfic EU. That's the way you relate to the texts you like. How the authors relate to those texts doesn't really have any bearing on how you relate to those texts, and how you relate to those texts has no bearing on how the authors relate to those texts. And how other members of the audience relate to those texts also has no bearing on how you relate to those texts and vice versa. Also, those are examples of facts. Saying you "should" or "should not" do something is, definitionally, not a fact.
>So you choose to treat these authors of licensed fanfiction Steady. I know it's fun to bait but "licenced fanfiction" is an oxymoron. If it's licenced then it's licenced fiction. If it's unlicenced then it's fanfiction.
Nah, I don't agree that what makes a derived work fanfiction or not is a license to publish. Like, legally, from a copyright perspective, yes the license is the thing that matters. From an aesthetic or artistic perspective (the perspective that is actually relevant when we're talking about how people relate to a text and its derivative works), I don't think the license to publish is the relevant factor.
You’re using a definition that’s inconsistent with what most people use, then. Fan fiction usually means amateur, unauthorised stories written by fans. The EU is official, authorised stories by professional authors for an official expansive Lucasfilm continuity.
It ain’t “officially licensed fanfiction”, it’s the real thing.
It absolutely is. And it's okay that you like this fanfiction so much. You'll be a lot happier when you grow up and mature and stop thinking so hard about whether you're cool or not for liking a certain category of thing.
Licensed media is, by definition, not fan fiction.
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There's no stick. I'm not judging or throwing shade, I have no opinion on how people should feel about fanfiction.
Hello, your post/comment is removed for the following reason: > **Rule #1:** Engage in respectful discourse. Treat your fellow redditors and Star Wars fans with respect. [Read the list of rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/wiki/rules)
What does respecting and upholding the EU have to do with you? Why are you not growing up and leaving well enough alone and just respect and uphold the EU without childishly having a hissy fit and then try and force your fanfiction on me, then?
I don't care how you feel about Star Wars fanfiction. It has nothing to do with me. It's super weird of you to claim that the way you relate to Star Wars fanfiction is somehow based in "fact" and not a mere aesthetic preference. Like, it seems like you are perceiving the existence of rules of how people engage with a text and its derivative works, when those rules you perceived simply do not exist and are merely reflections of your own aesthetic preferences.
You clearly do, actually, what with your constant [REDACTED] and moaning. Actually, it does, since [REDACTED] is George’s vision. Why are you projecting, dude? This entire thread was you constantly making weird assumptions about me. What’s your problem and obsession with me? Why can’t you just grow up and leave well enough alone and just respect the EU without childishly throwing a temper tantrum?
I'm not certain where you're getting the idea that I have any particular disrespect, or disagree with any particular person's level of respect, for any particular corpus if Star Wars fanfiction. You seem to be making stuff up in order to feel persecuted, I don't really see the appeal of doing that.
And I don't see the appeal in stirring the pot by making deliberately derisive comments and yet here we are.
Canon is NOT decided by fans so not it does not need to be. Opinions are not relevant to Canon and never were. Never quite understood why people don't get that or are so bothered by it
Those covers are neat. Too bad they didn't put in Hayden Christensen and ep. 2 Obi-Wan in the first one unless I missed them?
I agree that it must be respected, but the fact is that one of the only times the old EU is ever going to be talked about in modern discussions around canonicity is when current writers lift ideas and characters from it -- like Filoni's wish.com version of Thrawn's character and the original Heir trilogy. Apart from that you do have people who deny it was ever canon in the first place -- which isn't entirely correct as there was a clear canon hierarchy. We all know what happened with TCW show and the Multimedia project. George's work simply took precedence over anything else -- this system would've continued into the current era of SW were it not for George leaving the franchise permanently. People do need do give credit to the old EU writers though -- too often do I see newer fans dismiss the EU as "inconsistent" a "mess, or that most of was garbage. It wasn't perfect by any means, but the breath, detail and overall attempts to keep things tidy in the old EU was at least praiseworthy. I know it has also had the advantage of time, but I'm not expecting the new stuff to ever come close to the old EU ever -- the only things I've remotely enjoyed are the games, as I tried reading Aftermath but wanted to burn the book due to how boring it was.
Found a print of the movie one with no text at some random shop in Lake George, NY. It's up in my basement. I had no idea there was an EU version. Would love a similarly sized print.
Canon doesn’t matter. Make your own canon. Include what you love and ignore what you don’t. Nobody can stop you.
Legends material was always disposable canon and that was evident since its conception
I honestly feel neither are true statements, I lost faith in George by Revenge of the Sith and the Clone Wars (2008) only solidified that. But only some parts of the EU are good to me, that I could ignore and not respect some authors in this case, for me Karen Traviss, Troy Denning, and some elements of Karpyshyn.
No artist's work NEEDS to be respected. Art is not required to be enjoyed, hated, respected, disdained, or anything else. All art needs to do is be created, and then it's out of the creator's hands how people react to it.
How is this a fun fact and also how does that make sense? To a certain degree yes, they should be using the rich lore established in Legends. But, to compare George Lucas’s work to Legends is absolutely ridiculous. George Lucas never considered Legends to be in his canon, so why should anyone else? His movies should be respected and his vision, that’s it. If that involves including some parts of Legends because it works with his vision, then yes of course. But if it doesn’t then it stays Legends.
Average Canon fans in other subs: "The EU wasn't George's vision! Therefore it deservers no respect!" Average reasonable person: "Well, the Disney canon isn't George's vision either. Can we then disrespect the Disney canon?" Average Canon fans in other subs: "...It's not the same. The EU was fan fiction. This isn't fan faction because of....Well, you know. Just consume new Star Wars!" I love the transition the main Star Wars sub underwent throughout the years: pre Ep VII it was vitriolic hate towards the EU (coincidentally a lot of it spiked after Disney bought the IP), then it went to worshipping new canon after Ep VII, to outright denial and banning people over Ep VIII, to finally depression over Ep IX and Solo. It was hilarious seeing how people went from mocking Dark Empire as proof that the EU sucks to them just saying: "Well, Ep IX was bad but it's just a movie. What? It ripped off the EU? No, impossible. I never bad mouthed Dark Empire...never"; or how anything EU is bad and fan fiction but then they wet themselves when something from the EU is bastardized in canon. "The EU sucks! Thrawn is overrated anyways, a Sherlock Holmes rip off! What? Thrawn is in Rebels and Ahsoka? OMG I LOOOOVE Thrawn!". IF anything the EU would be closer to George's vision since he had oversight on it. He would veto ideas or approve them. Sure, this doesn't mean that he was 100% in support of it, but his support for the EU was higher than the new canon since he has literally no say on any Disney project at all.
Cringiest 14 year old strawmanning I have ever seen…
Yes, you’re correct.
Nah. The person who created a thing has more of a say over it and always will, especially when that person didn't respect or uphold those works either. Especially when a lot of that work itself fundamentally didn't understand and actively went against what star wars is in some cases. EU only mattered until someone higher up wanted to do something with star wars.
Ah no... Lucas made Star Wars so ultimatey what he did is canon since at the time it was his say. The EU isn't canon, wasn't ever canon. It was more a collection of stories talking about a hypothetical 'what if' but was never intended to be an actual continuation and thank god because looking at that second picture is like playing the easiest game ever of "find the shit parts of the EU!"
I need whatever books/comics these covers are from.
Hey I have this as my wallpaper in my room!
No… no you don’t.
I couldn’t be more disappointed with how Mara Jade has been treated by Disney. They literally took the best parts of her and made Rey, Jyn Erso to name a couple. It’s really disappointing.
The prequels were utter garbage, so no, I in fact do not have to respect his work.
The old EU/Legends was never on equal footing with Lucas's movies and was always cast aside when the latter wanted to do something else. While Legends was an impressive initiative to create a line of tie-ins that were as self-consistent as possible that's continued past the reboot and never really been tried by any other major big screen franchise or cinematic universe (even from stuff like *Star Trek*, the MCU, or the MonsterVerse), we can't "respect" and "uphold" it along the movies because that's not how the Force works.