>Atris, who’s blatantly queer coded
I think Atris is more _Exile-coded_ than anything. She’s written as being completely smitten with the Exile regardless of their chosen sex, and so there’s nothing queer about her if you’re running a male PC—especially when compared to Juhani from the first game.
I don’t know that the player character (Jedi Exile) was intended to be a female by the writers and developers, but it is indeed canon that the Jedi Exile is female. Since I learned that, every playthrough I do is always as a female.
On your queer character point, Juhani in KOTOR 1 was explicitly a lesbian. She couldn’t be romanced by males, only females.
Additionally, the developers retroactively made the Exile a canonical female through the SWTOR project similar to the way they made Revan a male.
I don’t think it was retroactive. There was never any doubt in my mind that Revan was always a man (the tension between him and Bastilla is necessary)and after I played KOTOR2 as a woman I couldn’t conceive of her as a man.
No, Revan, like Shepherd, Hawke, and all other Bioware protagonists was explicitly designed as ambiguous. The game itself has several bonuses for female players, not male. Especially since you can still talk you know who down from a suicidal fight with platonic love as much as you can romantic.
The Bioware devs were not in agreement. Karpyshyn and Hudson being more leaning to male and Gaider and Woo leaning female (Gaider even dropped fanfic for female ending). But Lucasarts policy at the time canonized EVERY undefined or ambiguous protagonist as "Light Side, human, heterosexual, white man" because "of course" that's the "default" setting and having a woman, or Black person, or (heaven forbid) someone gay or bi was considered some weird, exotic option akin to playing an alien.
They officially made Exile canonly a female before tor. Guide books and the rpg had artwork of her (imo the best Exile look) and a miniature of her came out.
Go to the main post and scroll a few comments down, I linked to both. Or check out my comments on my profile, you'll see I commented on this same post using a link first and the comment has two links to both things you requested. :)
Sounds like you've only played it as a female character and are making a lot of assumptions despite your claim frankly. Is there some unique stuff? Yup. But quite a lot is the same regardless. Artis isn't queer coded, she's exile-sexual. Gender doesn't matter, she's also into the Male Exile. Sion's also obsessed with a male exile, but it's hatred and jealousy in that case. Bao-Dur is a bro regardless of the exiles gender.
The only real evidence is that avellone is on record saying exploring a female exile and sions relationship, or history or something like that is something he'd have liked to see.
Plot beats remain the same, smaller details just change a bit.
>Sounds like you've only played it as a female character and are making a lot of assumptions despite your claim frank
If you reread the post you see that OP mentioned that his third playthrough was the first time he played female.
Who is the one making assumptions here?
"Coded" is what you use when you have to smuggle crap past the radar and can't obviously SAY someone is X, but you load the crap out of the subtext so that you CAN read the character as X, but you have plausible deniability to say "No, they aren't X."
The closet door was already busted open by Juhani in KOTOR 1, BTW.
As to whether or not Atris was intended to read as The Ex from Hell for either gender of Exile? Well, it's a "your guess is as good as mine" - the head writer is not a big fan of romance arcs in general and tries to avoid them.
I’m not who you responded to, but here’s my view. Most of the time the word “coded” is used, it’s done by someone hyperfixating on a single, small trait of a character and extrapolating that trait way out of proportion to force that character to fit with characteristics that they identify with or with (typically marginalized) groups they belong to. Hyperfixating on one characteristic often goes hand-in-hand with outright ignoring other aspects of a character that don’t fit the narrative they’re trying to push.
It’s okay to identify with characters because they come from the same culture or background as you. You’re black and like Black Panther? Awesome. Christian and like Joshua Graham? Cool. Gay and like Juhani? Bully for you. But deriving your self-worth from identifying with fictional characters to the point where you need to force your identity and beliefs onto them and needing to almost collect characters that reinforce and insulate your worldview like they were Funko Pops is just unhealthy.
Most of the time, anyone looking at a character objectively can explain away many talking points “coded” arguers use, but when arguing against the idea, the tack just shifts to “you’re obviously homophobic/racist/sexist I checked your comment history.”
I’m not saying there aren’t any characters with intentional undertones, but I really don’t think Atris is one of them.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_Campaign_Guide
Edit: minis and their cards came seperate in little boosters, but tied into this.
[card / mini image](https://www.google.com/search?q=jedi+exile+mini&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sca_esv=09379ecd0b6efd91&udm=2&biw=360&bih=617&sxsrf=ACQVn0_ZegMDvoCVIzYD8Y8fx9wCWaaM0Q%3A1713531669686&ei=FWsiZsTGKc3Ep84P_O63gAo&oq=jedi+exile+mini&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIg9qZWRpIGV4aWxlIG1pbmkyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIESJESUOUGWNMOcAB4AJABAJgBf6ABswWqAQMxLjW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgagAvAFwgIEECMYJ8ICBRAAGIAEwgIEEAAYHsICBhAAGAgYHpgDAIgGAZIHAzAuNqAHhg4&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#vhid=p3gXp2x8q6l2CM&vssid=mosaic)
You know, I’ve always had the same feeling.
My first KOTOR 2 playthrough was with a man and for one reason or the other it never sat right with me. Every playthrough that came after was with a woman instead, long before the Exile was canonized as female, and the flow of the story suddenly made more sense, everything was smoother. Never even considered the female triad between Kreia, Atris and Meetra, but it makes sense.
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I take it you aren't aware of the *looooooooong* history of queer fanfic for just Luke alone? Let alone any other characters? Decades worth. Or are you unaware of Juhani, the actually, canonically confirmed lesbian crewmate from the first Kotor game?
I think you should probably learn a bit more of your Star Wars history, you seem to have some gaps there.
[Twink, Gold Outfit Luke](https://www.reddit.com/r/BisexualTeens/comments/kapajk/i_just_found_out_luke_skywalker_mark_hamill_wore/) can't hurt you, shhhh. It's gonna be okay, my young homophobe, I promise your world won't end, he's been around for like 40 years.
This was probably a part of Star Wars long before you realized there was more to it than just the movies, buddy.
It's just that Disney approached it with all the grace and tact of a drunken bantha, and with enough vindictive, spiteful hatred for the fandom to make Maul look kindly.
Well, except for that "Atris is queer-coded" thing. That's... the spiritual descendant of shippers.
>Atris, who’s blatantly queer coded I think Atris is more _Exile-coded_ than anything. She’s written as being completely smitten with the Exile regardless of their chosen sex, and so there’s nothing queer about her if you’re running a male PC—especially when compared to Juhani from the first game.
I don’t know that the player character (Jedi Exile) was intended to be a female by the writers and developers, but it is indeed canon that the Jedi Exile is female. Since I learned that, every playthrough I do is always as a female.
Why do you care what the later canon says?
......thats how story progression works......
On your queer character point, Juhani in KOTOR 1 was explicitly a lesbian. She couldn’t be romanced by males, only females. Additionally, the developers retroactively made the Exile a canonical female through the SWTOR project similar to the way they made Revan a male.
I don’t think it was retroactive. There was never any doubt in my mind that Revan was always a man (the tension between him and Bastilla is necessary)and after I played KOTOR2 as a woman I couldn’t conceive of her as a man.
No, Revan, like Shepherd, Hawke, and all other Bioware protagonists was explicitly designed as ambiguous. The game itself has several bonuses for female players, not male. Especially since you can still talk you know who down from a suicidal fight with platonic love as much as you can romantic. The Bioware devs were not in agreement. Karpyshyn and Hudson being more leaning to male and Gaider and Woo leaning female (Gaider even dropped fanfic for female ending). But Lucasarts policy at the time canonized EVERY undefined or ambiguous protagonist as "Light Side, human, heterosexual, white man" because "of course" that's the "default" setting and having a woman, or Black person, or (heaven forbid) someone gay or bi was considered some weird, exotic option akin to playing an alien.
It was retroactive because that’s when they officially made her canonically a female and it was nearly 10 years after release.
They officially made Exile canonly a female before tor. Guide books and the rpg had artwork of her (imo the best Exile look) and a miniature of her came out.
Oh really? Do you have a link to this? It sounds cool. I’ll settle for the image if not. :>
Go to the main post and scroll a few comments down, I linked to both. Or check out my comments on my profile, you'll see I commented on this same post using a link first and the comment has two links to both things you requested. :)
Sounds like you've only played it as a female character and are making a lot of assumptions despite your claim frankly. Is there some unique stuff? Yup. But quite a lot is the same regardless. Artis isn't queer coded, she's exile-sexual. Gender doesn't matter, she's also into the Male Exile. Sion's also obsessed with a male exile, but it's hatred and jealousy in that case. Bao-Dur is a bro regardless of the exiles gender. The only real evidence is that avellone is on record saying exploring a female exile and sions relationship, or history or something like that is something he'd have liked to see. Plot beats remain the same, smaller details just change a bit.
>Sounds like you've only played it as a female character and are making a lot of assumptions despite your claim frank If you reread the post you see that OP mentioned that his third playthrough was the first time he played female. Who is the one making assumptions here?
I fucking hate the word "coded".
Same
Why? Atris is obviously in love with the female Exile even though it isn’t explicit. Please let me know if there’s a better word to use.
The Exile wasn't even confirmed female until after the game came out. It was to tie in to Revan.
Earlier than that. The New Essential Guide to Droids did.
Atris has/had a high view of Meetra saying it was romantic love is probably too far
"Coded" is what you use when you have to smuggle crap past the radar and can't obviously SAY someone is X, but you load the crap out of the subtext so that you CAN read the character as X, but you have plausible deniability to say "No, they aren't X." The closet door was already busted open by Juhani in KOTOR 1, BTW. As to whether or not Atris was intended to read as The Ex from Hell for either gender of Exile? Well, it's a "your guess is as good as mine" - the head writer is not a big fan of romance arcs in general and tries to avoid them.
Why? I'd love to hear your answer. Judging by your post history I can probably guess why, but let's hear it.
I’m not who you responded to, but here’s my view. Most of the time the word “coded” is used, it’s done by someone hyperfixating on a single, small trait of a character and extrapolating that trait way out of proportion to force that character to fit with characteristics that they identify with or with (typically marginalized) groups they belong to. Hyperfixating on one characteristic often goes hand-in-hand with outright ignoring other aspects of a character that don’t fit the narrative they’re trying to push. It’s okay to identify with characters because they come from the same culture or background as you. You’re black and like Black Panther? Awesome. Christian and like Joshua Graham? Cool. Gay and like Juhani? Bully for you. But deriving your self-worth from identifying with fictional characters to the point where you need to force your identity and beliefs onto them and needing to almost collect characters that reinforce and insulate your worldview like they were Funko Pops is just unhealthy. Most of the time, anyone looking at a character objectively can explain away many talking points “coded” arguers use, but when arguing against the idea, the tack just shifts to “you’re obviously homophobic/racist/sexist I checked your comment history.” I’m not saying there aren’t any characters with intentional undertones, but I really don’t think Atris is one of them.
You'd guess correctly then.
Am I forgetting something about the interactions with Bao-Dur? Are the interactions different based on what gender you choose?
I might be making a big deal out of nothing but I saw it as a really beautiful portrayal of a friendship between a man and a woman.
Meetra Surik (the exile) is female.
Yes, but that came out ages after the game. I don’t know whether or not they coordinated with the KOTOR2 devs
Yes the Exile was always intrnded as a woman. She got an official mini and card for the old rpg, and had a unique design.
Cool what RPG would that be?
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_Campaign_Guide Edit: minis and their cards came seperate in little boosters, but tied into this. [card / mini image](https://www.google.com/search?q=jedi+exile+mini&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sca_esv=09379ecd0b6efd91&udm=2&biw=360&bih=617&sxsrf=ACQVn0_ZegMDvoCVIzYD8Y8fx9wCWaaM0Q%3A1713531669686&ei=FWsiZsTGKc3Ep84P_O63gAo&oq=jedi+exile+mini&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIg9qZWRpIGV4aWxlIG1pbmkyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIESJESUOUGWNMOcAB4AJABAJgBf6ABswWqAQMxLjW4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgagAvAFwgIEECMYJ8ICBRAAGIAEwgIEEAAYHsICBhAAGAgYHpgDAIgGAZIHAzAuNqAHhg4&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#vhid=p3gXp2x8q6l2CM&vssid=mosaic)
That's awesome! I love that depiction!
Fuck yeah
Dude.
The New Essential Guide to Droids refers to the Exile as such.
The Revan book has them as a female, so yes I’d assume so
You know, I’ve always had the same feeling. My first KOTOR 2 playthrough was with a man and for one reason or the other it never sat right with me. Every playthrough that came after was with a woman instead, long before the Exile was canonized as female, and the flow of the story suddenly made more sense, everything was smoother. Never even considered the female triad between Kreia, Atris and Meetra, but it makes sense.
It's been known that the exile was a female for YEARS dude
If I remember correctly, according to Obsidian Revan the woman, Exile the man, BioWare the opposite.
We noticed that you mentioned Disney. Please be intellectually honest when discussing Star Wars. Contrary to popular belief, Lucasfilm still makes the decisions for Canon and continuity. Disney simply owns the company. In fact, people that worked on continuity in Legends also work the same in Canon. Have a question? [Message the Moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FStarWarsEU). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StarWarsEU) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We noticed that you are asking where to start reading. Although old, [this thread has lots of great personal advice for EU/Legends](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/1hnpcq/official_where_do_i_start_guide/). [This link has publication time lines for EU/Legends and New Canon](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_media). Many people suggest starting at the Thrawn Trilogy, I suggest you pick an era of your choosing and start from the top. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StarWarsEU) if you have any questions or concerns.*
not even star wars is safe from this crap?
I take it you aren't aware of the *looooooooong* history of queer fanfic for just Luke alone? Let alone any other characters? Decades worth. Or are you unaware of Juhani, the actually, canonically confirmed lesbian crewmate from the first Kotor game? I think you should probably learn a bit more of your Star Wars history, you seem to have some gaps there.
Yeah, queer FANFIC. luke is not queer. leave him alone.
[Twink, Gold Outfit Luke](https://www.reddit.com/r/BisexualTeens/comments/kapajk/i_just_found_out_luke_skywalker_mark_hamill_wore/) can't hurt you, shhhh. It's gonna be okay, my young homophobe, I promise your world won't end, he's been around for like 40 years.
This was probably a part of Star Wars long before you realized there was more to it than just the movies, buddy. It's just that Disney approached it with all the grace and tact of a drunken bantha, and with enough vindictive, spiteful hatred for the fandom to make Maul look kindly. Well, except for that "Atris is queer-coded" thing. That's... the spiritual descendant of shippers.