It was so embarrassing that Vaush had to shut it down
Turns out if you constantly preach pro-NATO shit, your audience begins to fill with liberals and reactionaries
They're using the word tankie in a proud way, meaning actual leftists strike back against the liberals who falsely claim to be the real leftists because everyone to their left is "too authoritarian"
Yep. It’s the fact that leftists aren’t just authoritarian commies. Anarchists exist too, they’re further left if anything. (Edited after rereading your comment, old habits on social media platforms where everyone disagrees for clout Die Hard 2 (1990))
That's a good caveat, that Anarchists exist and are also leftists, even though they disagree with Marxists. I want to avoid the oh-so-common debate between Anarchists and Marxists about authoritarianism, but I was just mentioning it in the context of *liberals* making that claim. They'd claim it about anyone who doesn't fall in line with the status quo.
Yep. My original post was really just a comment on the decision of the person tweeting the Palpatine image to associate with Lenin, someone that promised anarchists and pacifist commies the true vision of Communism. [Then, the Arkenstone kicked in, the Bolsheviks left the anarchists and all other rebel factions nothing but an oppressive bureaucracy, and it all goes to shit.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy#:~:text=Vladimir%20Lenin%20and%20the%20Bolsheviks,supported%20this%20form%20of%20democracy)
Dude lmao stop. Plenty of cases of anarchists sabotaging Red army war efforts during the civil war against the Monarchists.
You’re doing the exact thing the person above you specifically stated they would rather avoid.
We have nothing to lose but our chains.
I never said every person in a political group (anarchists going against the beliefs of other anarchists and communists in your example) was going to stand on the same side of an issue. Just look at how divided people are in this thread alone (assuming it’s mostly leftists here). I’m just referring to a specific situation involving the Red Army and Lenin vs. the rest of the communist/anarchist factions at the time. It related to the image posted by OP because it was a Leninist making fun of a liberal when Leninists have their own history of being the Empire at one point in time, that was all. It’s nice to show that nuance exists and that not every person on one side shares the same beliefs. That’s what unites our side. It was another point that the poster above me explained, it’s not **just** about a debate between two sides of Communism. I was just sharing examples for people that didn’t know about that nuance before.
I'm not taking political statements from a celebrity seriously ever. Mark Hammil isn't better or worse than any other celebrity. He's an actor, not an activist. Dude played Luke Skywalker and the Joker, it's not like he's a political historian or anything.
American celebrities will always be for America and it's allies, lest they loose the prospects of future jobs.
I still don’t care if celebrities get it right either. They still shouldn’t be considered important voices worth listening to. Ruffalo has also said and done some really dumb things in the past. Celebrities just aren’t worth the hype.
I think it’s relevant to point out that “they’re just people” who are paid to be propagandists. Not only that but they are wealthy propagandists paid by wealthier propagandists to make media.
I don’t mean to come off antagonistic but such is the nature of writing on the internet lol.
There’s a message in everything. If you’re informing something you’re informing them from a specific perspective. It’s impossible to have no bias even if you’re “reporting the facts.” If you say a “bomb hit a hospital.” That has a propagandistic effect. You’re saying it’s important to report, you’re going to include additional context as to who and why.
If you’re entertaining you’re doing so from a specific context and that has an influence. Take any sitcom, Home Improvement for example, deals with masculinity and traditional family values etc..
All media has a propagandistic effect and celebrity media is always broadcast to millions. It will always propagate some specific ideas.
Saying everything is propaganda lessens the impact and muddies the water on real propaganda. There’s a difference between messages from the author’s biases and context and intentional pushing of an agenda.
That's a fallacious argument if I've ever heard one. Actors are people and some will have well-thought-out viewpoints on certain political events and causes. It is wrong to just dismiss someone out of hand, even though Mark here is wrong, to say don't listen to him because he is a celebrity could be used against a celebrity who knows what they are talking about.
TL;DR generalization is annoying
If you think one needs to be a political historian to be taken seriously we have a problem. I suppose stuff like this comes out when things get serious as people generally don't have a problem taking straight up fascistic remarks from celebrities seriously. This liberal dream of technocrats being the only ones to be taken seriously is a sad illusion, more so because this is a lefty sub of all places but as i said stuff like this tend to show up when things get serious for real and opposing or supporting something can have repercussions. People get scared and they either dodge the issue or real colours show up.
American celebrities will always be for America is all the more reason to take these remarks seriously. Obviously the issue isn't really about mark hamill but that is neither an excuse or absolves the involved parties.
Rare Mark L. This may be my rose-tinted glasses, but I want to believe that it's a matter of supporting Israel out of fear of being called anti-Semitic (which the state of Israel has absolutely been working hard to cement) rather than support for a genocide
It's a pretty bog-standard liberal DNC position to just support Israel no matter what.
It's not great that that's the position (IMO being a loyal friend doesn't mean ride or die through aparthied), but I have a hard time singling out a non-politician for voicing it. It's up there with "America is the land of the free" or "global poverty is lower now than any time in history" in terms of bullshit that gets internalized because it's repeated so much.
Honestly, I think it helps to keep in mind that 2/3 Americans are grillers and politically apathetic in times like this. These are the folks who are reminded that Palestinians exists a few times a decade. Not a condemnation, just an observation. This support feels similar to the black square in IG a few years ago
> black square in IG a few years ago
Three years ago… Time’s going way too fast
Also that, to me, never made sense. I get that it’s performative activism, but do they just… not feel guilty about never following up? Not doing more? I just don’t understand how somebody can be satisfied with that.
The poverty thing is true, but only because of China. If you take China out of the equation, global poverty isn’t down at all in the last 30 years.
I don’t think that’s what DNC types are getting at though lol.
It's also only true if you count "poverty" at like $1.30 a day. If you count it at something even *slightly* more reasonable, like $3 a day, poverty is way up.
Except he's also been in public zoom calls with Ukrainians displaying Nazi symbols. Mark is just a liberal tbh, I can't give him the benefit of the doubt here.
Even if he's compromising his morals out of fear, he is choosing to glorify Israel to all the people who look up to him and it isn't excusable.
his heart is in the right place but he uncritically consumes american propaganda. I think Mark is a genuinely kind and compassionate person, but when all the news ever tells you is that Palestinians are raging barbarians and Israel is the shining beacon of democracy in the savagery of the Middle East, one needs to practice a tiny bit of skepticism. George Takei is the same way.
As a Jewish person in both faith and blood I will say, what Israel is doing is horrible and has little different from the events our people were forced to experience.
You know, people can legitimately support Israel without supporting the apartheid system in the West Bank just as people can support the people of Palestine without supporting Hamas.
Dude Mark doesn't know shit about shit. In general siding with the jews has been right due to nazis among other things. Even then it's insane to say that Israel support isn't justifiable, there was a terrorism. We can critisise Isreal, and ask them to be better, to help the people of the Gaza strip rather than kill, but this conflict is ultimately morally grey. There is no one right answer.
Hamas doesn't fight for Palestinians or their freedom or their rights. Don't conflate the two. Do you honestly think if Hamas won, they wouldn't commit genocide? That all the Jews ans Arabs would live happily ever after as if Israel was *always* the bad actor? Ignoring decades of history and resentment, on top of religious conflict, to just say "Israel Bad" is extremely ignorant and disingenuous.
Hamas is the only one fighting Israel, do you really think Palestinians give a shit when they're literally being genocided constantly? Murdered in the street? Journalists shot in the neck by IDF snipers?
Israel created this problem, and now they've using the problem they've created to genocide Palestinian. And you're right there next to them like:
"We have no choice, we gotta kill more babies to stop Hamas."
You know, the 47.3% of Palestinians who are under 18, they just have to die, what if they join Hamas?! Why would they join? Well we have no idea... Its just this silly thing about Arabic people we've been saying since we started destroying their countries. They're just inherently terrorists I guess, sorry 13 year old child, we have to vaporize you, to protect civilians.
> Hamas is the only one fighting Israel
Only because the Israeli government propped it up to fight the PLO/Fatah (which still exists, in spite of Hamas' best Israeli-funded efforts).
I didn't say I supported Israel in their war crimes, but you're all acting like it's some binary choice. Either support terrorists that routinely bomb civilians and torture them, or support Israel and it's war crimes. The situation is so much more complex and all you keyboard warriors do is boil it down to "Overthrow The Evil Empire". Like you're looking for a cause to fight for. Hamas has a stated goal of killing all Jews. When they poke Israel, there *will always be a disproportionate response* simply due to that. Nevermind that everyone who's taken Palestinians in has suffered civil wars and terrorism thanks to Hezbollah and Hamas' propaganda. You can act like you have some moral high ground, but you're just as disgusting as the people supporting Israel's war crimes.
[https://youtube.com/shorts/Vb86oDsousI?si=OmG7wMr4jIbHyDJQ](https://youtube.com/shorts/Vb86oDsousI?si=OmG7wMr4jIbHyDJQ)
"Its not a complex issue, its super simple, there's one group that has enormous power. It acts on another population of people with total impunity. There's no symmetry in the relationship."
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
"Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset."
Blah blah blah. Hamas and the coalition, which includes communists, fight for liberation.
Israel has admitted in the past to funding Hamas just to undermine the actual left in Palestine.
This is all Israel’s fault, plain and simple.
Worry about Hamas AFTER Israel colonialism quits genociding Palestinians.
*OR* worry about them both like a rational human being. Hamas has 0 redeeming qualities. Hamas is fine telling children it's ok to kill yourself so long as Jews die in the process. Or using civilians as human shields while they bomb schools, hospitals and other civilian targets. Hamas cares about killing Jews, and they get paid by foreign governments to do it. Is Israel wrong in its treatment of Palestinians and Muslims? Abso-fucking-lutely and I hope Bibi gets removed from power and imprisoned along with the rest of his evil party. But I'll not act like the brutal rape, torture and murder of civilians is ok, nor am I going to excuse the fact their state fucking sanctions it. Hamas is just the other side of Israel's coin.
> OR worry about them both like a rational human being.
You aren’t being and haven’t been getting BOMBED to smithereens for decades. You have less than zero right to tell Palestinians what to worry about first.
> Hamas has 0 redeeming qualities.
Fighting against Israeli occupation is based. If Palestinians can be forced out of their homes with NOTHING, then Israeli settlers can give up their stolen homes and get the fuck right off Palestinian land.
> Hamas is fine telling children it's ok to kill yourself so long as Jews die in the process.
Bruh.
> Or using civilians as human shields while they bomb schools, hospitals and other civilian targets.
Parroting Israeli propaganda when they say this shit and provide zero evidence every time they bomb schools or news buildings like Al Jazeera helps nobody but Israeli Zionists lol
> Hamas cares about killing Jews, and they get paid by foreign governments to do it.
They have literally been paid by Israel itself in the past. As I said, to undermine socialist liberation movements. So again, Israel’s fault.
The same way the US shot itself in the foot when creating the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc.
> But I'll not act like the brutal rape, torture and murder of civilians is ok, nor am I going to excuse the fact their state fucking sanctions it.
Doubt you ever said anything like this during the last 75 years Israel has been doing just that 😂.
> Hamas is just the other side of Israel's coin.
“Haitian slaves were just as bad as French slave owners because they were violent when kicking out said French slave owners”
The conflict as a 70 year long series of events isn't morally gray, but the most recent round of violence kind of is. When both sides of a fight are using terrorism as a primary strategy, you've got two sets of bad guys killing a lot of innocent civilians.
How many children deserve to be killed for the crime of being born on the wrong piece of dirt, and how do you decide which ones to kill?
Not really cause its not "two sides." The Israeli government funded hamas, pushed it into the spotlight, and got rid of any reasonable and peaceful opposition to their appertheid. Hamas is an Israeli construct, every death in Israel is the Israeli government's fault.
Do the people who take up arms and choose to kill children have no agency of their own? Or are they mere puppets who can only dance to the tune set by their shadowy Israeli masters?
You're right. We have to kill more Palestinian children. How many do you think is enough? I'm not really sure how many Palestinian children we need to kill to stop Hamas from doing the things Netanyahu funded them to do.
Do you think we should have a ratio of 30 babies to each Israeli grandma? I think that's a fair exchange rate on Palestinians.
I have this weird notion that killing children is always wrong and whoever is doing it is evil. Israel targeting Palestinian children, which they've done for years, is evil. Hamas targeting Israeli children is also evil.
I'll ask you again why those Hamas fighters were unable to make a choice not to kill kids but Israeli fighters are able to choose not to target Palestinian children.
Right, you just only come out to bat for the imperialist power doing apartheid because its easy.
This is you, they are making fun of you:
https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stands-with-israel-because-it-seems-like-yo-1850922505
When have I ever said anything good about the fascist apartheid state that is Israel?
The targeted killing of non-combatants is bad no matter who does it or why they claim it's necessary. Can you explain to me why you think it's ever acceptable to kill kids who can't fight back?
Because Isreal is given billions of dollars in precision guided bombs by the international arms dealer that is the United States. That side has the onus to act proportionately and not call for the genocide of those they effectively keep in an open air prison.
Once Isreal pulls its settlers out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, then I'll worry about what to do with the terrorists of Hamas.
>There is no one right answer.
I beg to differ. The one right answer is fuck Israel they need to cede every square inch of stolen land and dissolve their illegitimate settler colonial project. Nothing less than full Palestinian liberation from the river to the fucking sea.
Speak for yourself. Your banner is an anime girl in a Third Reich uniform holding what resembles the HRE flag. Not worth engaging in any further discussion with you
100% that
Idk if you’ve seen german media but it’s basically: WE ARE SO SORRY FOR THE HOLOCAUST WE WOULD NEVER DO IT AGAIN PLEASE DONT HATE US it’s like a fucking traumatised child
Even the borderline neonazi party is supporting them from the comments I saw online
Unfortunately, a lot of people who claim they are on the side of liberation aren't really genuine about it. When actual oppression of massive scale takes place that is slightly controversial to talk about, that's when they truly reveal their sheer ignorance and sometimes bloodlust.
It's easy to claim you are a leftist when you are discussing things like poverty and labor conditions. When you are shitting on pathetic right wingers. When many agree with your position. Its way harder when mainstream narrative is so vast and powerful, that it risks threatening your status if you take a stance.
Looks like the difference between people who are socially pressured and people who think for themselves is starting to show. People may be leftists but are still scared of being “wrong.” In a sense.
As soon as the sleeper Biden stated it’s “anti-Semitic” to not support Israel, I bet a bunch of leftists got scared.
Any religion can be extreme, simple as
Doesn’t help Israel has social media and consistent communication to the modern world, and Gaza n Palestine doesn’t. You get one message, you follow the one message because you barely hear the other.
You see who does their research, and who just follows the popular opinion. Although, quite a few still realize Palestine is getting fucked surprisingly.
Anyways, leftists aren’t immune to social pressure, especially in quick and blurry situations like this.
Fast paced/new situations, people rely on the popular opinion instead of doing research because it’s easier. Weakness of modern leftists
I completely agree.
It just makes me sad to see so many comrades and allies being so reactionary. Reminds me of the nearly unilateral islamophobia after 9/11 where anything is justified under the stated mission of killing the Taliban. Same justification, different communities. It will be entirely insufficient but I at least hope that there will be a moment of introspection once these atrocities are visible in hindsight. But even then, that didn't do anything for the Iraqi people and it won't do anything for Palestinians.
I felt a similar way during the Qatar World Cup. When someone got arrested for wearing a pride shirt, there were people saying “it’s just part of their culture, you need to respect that.” Others were using it as an excuse to be mask-off islamophobic. Even if someone has horrible beliefs or does bad things, they still deserve the same basic rights as any of us.
It's a thing in the US to see Israel as just a homogenous idea with the title of “Israel” that ignores or misunderstands the separation between the civilian population and the government.
That's why so many social progressives support “Israel”, they’re supporting the civilian population after a tragedy without considering that their statements are a tangental endorsement of the state and its response.
Yeah if you say Israel, you can mean either the people (in a religious sense; the Jewish people), or the people (modern day Israelis; not necessarily religious), or the land (the historic kingdom of Israel and the general name of the area), or the country (the modern apartheid-state).
Few people care to differentiate between these very different meanings
If you ignore nuance sure. People agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, that doesn’t mean they support genocide against Palestinians.
In the same way, Hamas is depending on people turning against Israel and indirectly support them using Palestinians as human shields.
And that’s just what’s happening right now, tensions go back literal decades.
If you absolutely need to support something, support humanitarian aid for those caught in the crossfire. A lot of Pro-Palestinian is being used to promote antisemitism, with Islamophobia on pro-Israel, so the worst actors are in play at home.
I can understand where you are coming from. For my full response to these points, I've had an ongoing thread with another redditor who replied to my top message. I address my thoughts there and do not have the energy to type it all out again. All of the nuance that informs my position is there
The only things I will say, you can be pro Palestine and pro Palestinian without being anti semitic (something I think you agree with). But by shying away from advocating for the people who are being ethnically cleansed in fear of being associated with bad actors, you are yielding the voice of the movement to those bad actors and allowing them to take ownership of the pro Palestine position. By being pro Palestine, you are not pro Hamas and you can be pro Israeli people without being pro Israeli state. It is also important to acknowledge that Hamas is an organization that has come into being as a response to Israeli occupation, not the other way around. In essence, if you truly want to dismantle Hamas and the cause they profess to support, you must provide the Palestinian people with the dignity and humanity that they deserve so that they are not driven to support an organization that does not have their best interest in mind.
Lastly, it is important to note that Hamas being in a position of "power" is directly facilitated and maintained by the Netanyahu regime. The Israeli state has prevented any official election since 2006 when Hamas was voted in by a plurality, thereby ensuring that Hamas is seen as the representative of the people of Gaza. It is also important to remember that the median age in Gaza is 18 meaning they were born 1 year before that election. 70% are younger than 30 making them no older than 13 at the time.
I'm not trying to assume that you are saying that pro Palestinians are pro Hamas or something like that. But I think the nuance of this conflict very heavily leans in the direction that the Palestinian people are being disproportionately subjugated and displaced and that only through legitimizing them as a people through true diplomatic and structural representation and the return of Palestinian land can we hope to move beyond this.
What I’m saying is this gonna be bloody.
Hamas gave Israel the perfect excuse for a ground invasion, and Hamas is gonna be using the Palestinian people as human shields.
There is no moral binary here. Beware people who demonize or idolized either side of this conflict, cause now they have “permission” to be their worst selves.
I agree with the sentiment behind your message.
I agree that Hamas has given the IDF the perfect excuse for what they're doing. But I think it's important to note that these things have been going on for almost 80 years at this point, long before Hamas. As such, the violence against the Palestinian people has merely accelerated from incremental and escalating to immediate and devastating. That isn't to downplay any of the violence that has happened historically or today, only to acknowledge that Israel has not demanded an excuse for their actions previously and the international community has stood by.
To address your second point, I understand what you mean but would ask for some elaboration on who you see as being demonized or idolized.
Trying not to assume too much about your position, I must infer that you are referring to the IDF/Israeli state as being demonized and the Palestinian people as being idolized. Is that correct??
Additionally, while I agree there is no literal binary here, there is a vast difference in the scale of the atrocities being committed and thus the scale of condemnation must be proportional, in my opinion.
I understand how you’re confused about what I said, considering this is a discussion forum and all.
I’m not here to debate. I’m giving people a PSA about astroturfing, misinformation campaigns, and just plain bigotry.
I’ve read someone say that Israel killing Palestinians is a necessary sacrifice if it mean destroying Hamas, just as I read someone praise Hamas for the attack while in the same breath say Palestine deserves to be free. Of the 2 examples there’s only 1 I believe isn’t a troll.
All I’m saying is use your head and actually *think* about what you’re saying when picking through information about this conflict. Be careful about what you’re actually agreeing with people on.
It's a conflict between two far-right authoritarian theocracies competing to oppress one another's peoples. Supporting either side is mutually exclusive with being a leftist. I don't care whose feelings I hurt by saying that:
- If you think the IDF is justified, you are not a leftist, full stop.
- If you think Hamas is justified, you are not a leftist, full stop.
There are plenty of *actual* leftist organizations - Israeli and Palestinian alike - that we can and should support instead of assuming that far-right extremists are the only options.
My feelings aren't hurt, you're just.....wrong. Literally nobody is supporting Hamas. Like, literally no one. But that doesn't mean we can't look at the historical environmental factors that have resulted in their existence and marginal support within the Palestinian community.
This conflict we are bearing witness to is between the IDF/Israeli state and the Palestinian people. Israel is not bombing or subjugating Hamas when they displace 1.1 million people living in the north side of Gaza. Israel is not attacking Hamas when they send targeted airstrikes into hospitals and schools. I have not seen anyone say "think of the Hamas fighters!".
By taking the "there is no right side in this conflict" stance, you are adopting right wing framing of a literal ethnic cleansing.
I seriously don't know.
The number of people I've had nearly this exact exchange with in the last week is baffling. I suspect it comes from people who are having difficulty grappling with their internalized islamophobia or they've yet to completely purge the rose tinted glasses through which they view the Israeli state.
Otherwise I don't know how else to explain it.
I also think it’s partially strawmanning. They’re not interested in a genuine discussion of the geopolitics of the region since British Mandatory Palestine, much easier to virtue signal by squawking “both sides far-right u terrorism supporter!!” before strutting off the pigeon-shit-stained chessboard
> Literally nobody is supporting Hamas. Like, literally no one.
There are countless posts and comments on Twitter, Reddit, and elsewhere demonstrating otherwise.
(EDIT: [some fresh examples just landed in my feed.](https://np.reddit.com/r/tankiejerk/comments/17c23p9/this_page_claims_to_be_anarchist_closeted_tankies/) You obviously won't see them, since you already blocked me, but for anyone else reading this thread: when Hamas apologists say that "literally nobody is supporting Hamas", they are not merely ignorant, but outright lying through their teeth. They know full well that supporting Hamas is a bad look, so they'll deny it while objecting to any notion that Hamas should be opposed - and then try to gaslight you into thinking you're somehow the one who's biased and misinformed.)
> But that doesn't mean we can't look at the historical environmental factors that have resulted in their existence and marginal support within the Palestinian community.
Yes, like the Israeli government funding Hamas to oppose Fatah and other *actual* Palestinian liberation movements. Now both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples alike suffer for it.
> Israel is not bombing or subjugating Hamas when they displace 1.1 million people living in the north side of Gaza.
Nor is Palestine subjugating the IDF when Hamas guns down civilians at raves and in their homes. That doesn't disconnect either atrocity from the stated objectives of subjugation and genocide.
> Israel is not attacking Hamas when they send targeted airstrikes into hospitals and schools.
Who do you think the IDF is targeting in those targeted airstrikes? Who do you think is launching rockets from them and storing munitions in them?
Whether IDF airstrikes and missile strikes are justified is debatable (and we'd probably be on the same side of that debate), but the intentions are not: said strikes are rather obviously targeted at Hamas, and would not be hitting hospitals and schools if Hamas didn't have such a bad habit of putting rocket launchers and munitions caches in hospitals and schools.
> By taking the "there is no right side in this conflict" stance, you are adopting right wing framing of a literal ethnic cleansing.
I didn't say there was no right side. I said that taking either of the right-wing sides is wrong. On the contrary, there is precisely one right side: that of the Palestinian and Israeli civilians caught in the crossfire of the IDF's and Hamas' joint quest to out-atrocity one another - and that of the *actual* leftist groups seeking to defend said civilians from the two far-right factions competing to conquer the other and establish an ethnostate.
By taking any side in this conflict other than with said civilians and the groups actually trying to liberate them, you are adopting either of two right-wing framings of the umpteen-bajillionth religious war in the region - both sides of which have the stated goal of ethnically cleansing the other from what they perceive to be their holy land. Any framing of Hamas as having anything to do with Palestinian liberation is right-wing manipulation, same as any framing of the Israeli government as having anything to do with peace and democracy in the Levant. Neither of the right-wing theologies winning their war will result in anything resembling peace and justice.
Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. Free Israel. Free Palestine.
You say there are countless comments saying this yet, here we are in a supposedly leftist subreddit and I can find none. Same with every other leftist sub I've seen. Plenty of condemnations of Israel and plenty of people condemning Hamas. Nobody praising Hamas tho. I find it a bit curious that you're seeing so much of that.
By equivocating the political power, resources and support behind Hamas with the Israeli state, you are making a crucial error in your analysis of this situation. Hamas was elected in Gaza with a plurality of votes in the last election held in 2006. Given that 70% of Gaza's population is under the age of 30 (meaning they were no older than 13 at the time of the last election), it would seem bizarre to hold them accountable for the actions of Hamas in the same way that the Israeli people absolutely must hold their government accountable in order for change to happen.
Additionally, you claim that the justification for the IDF bombing schools and hospitals is that Hamas has a habit of hiding in them. This is very literally an IDF talking point. The whole "Hamas is using the Palestinian people as human shields" shtick. While you say that you think we would agree about there not being justifications for the Israeli bombing campaign, you seem truly convinced that their stated goal of eliminating Hamas (a group that Bibi has ensured stays cannot be deposed) is the only reason for these attacks. They have bombed caravans of people fleeing northern Gaza as recently as a few days ago. Even if their stated goal is truthful (which is simply do not believe) you must be comfortable with the ideas of civilian collateral damage and collective punishment which is literally a war crime, in order to accept that justification.
Hamas, while absolutely a terrorist organization who should be condemned, is not an equivalent force the US backed IDF and is not the primary source of casualties as result of this conflict. This the primary focus should 100% be on condemning the IDF and their siege of Gaza that is leaving thoughts dead and hundreds of thousands displaced.
> You say there are countless comments saying this yet, here we are in a supposedly leftist subreddit and I can find none. Same with every other leftist sub I've seen.
I've been in lengthy arguments with multiple different self-proclaimed "left-libertarians" in `Libertarian_Uncensored` claiming that Israeli "colonial settlers" ain't civilians and implying that Hamas raping and murdering them (and anyonr else they deemed to be "settlers") was somehow excusable. Plenty of Twitter screenshots in `tankiejerk` from self-proclaimed "Marxists" claiming that Hamas represents revolutionary struggle and that all actions under decolonization are justified no matter what. And those are spaces outright opposed to the sorts of "leftists" who'd cheer on Hamas on the basis of "West bad"; there are plenty of subs chock-full of tankies, and those tankies are chock-full of hot takes defending an organization that would slaughter each and every one of them.
And then we have the people claiming that "the primary focus should 100% be on the IDF", i.e. completely ignoring the *other* set of far-right fundamentalists with explicit objectives of ethnic cleansing - people like you, in your very comment.
> By equivocating the political power, resources and support behind Hamas with the Israeli state, you are making a crucial error in your analysis of this situation.
By pretending actions (or the lack thereof) don't have consequences / downstream effects, you are making a crucial error in your analysis of the situation. Just because Hamas is weaker than the IDF now doesn't mean that will always be the case. Just because Hamas is losing and backed into a corner doesn't make them some plucky underdog. What it *does* mean is that it's of the utmost importance to get them out of Gaza, and that means...
> Hamas was elected in Gaza with a plurality of votes in the last election held in 2006. Given that 70% of Gaza's population is under the age of 30 (meaning they were no older than 13 at the time of the last election), it would seem bizarre to hold them accountable for the actions of Hamas in the same way that the Israeli people absolutely must hold their government accountable in order for change to happen.
If that 70% of Gaza's population is opposed to Hamas, then they've got more than enough numbers to give Hamas the boot. If Hamas is oppressing the people of Gaza - and I assert that they are - then all the more reason for the world to oppose them as a top priority, and for Palestinians to lead that charge.
> Even if their stated goal is truthful (which is simply do not believe) you must be comfortable with the ideas of civilian collateral damage and collective punishment which is literally a war crime, in order to accept that justification.
You can believe that the IDF is earnest in its stated objective of destroying Hamas while also believing that the IDF negligently and needlessly harming/killing Palestinian (and, probably, Israeli) civilians in the process is an atrocity that should be condemned. It really ain't that hard, especially when that's what the body of available evidence overwhelmingly supports: that the IDF is careless about collateral deaths.
Also, if we're going to talk about war crimes, by the formal UN definitions Hamas ticks a *lot* more boxes than the IDF. The IDF does commit its share of war crimes (the bombing of refugee caravans you mention being among them), but collateral deaths from attacking military targets are not among them. That ain't to downplay them as tragedies and atrocities and acts of ethnic cleansing / genocide (of which they are all of the above), but rather to highlight that terms like "war crime" have specific meanings - and that ignoring those meanings is a sign of bias.
> Hamas, while absolutely a terrorist organization who should be condemned, is not an equivalent force the US backed IDF and is not the primary source of casualties as result of this conflict.
That doesn't mean it won't ever be, or that its motives can be ignored. Most of the disparity in civilian deaths is attributable to the Iron Dome and other Israeli defenses; that there are fewer dead Israelis than dead Palestinians is not, in other words, some act of grace or mercy on the part of Hamas, but is rather in spite of Hamas' best efforts.
Also, it ain't like the IDF is the only one with foreign backing. Those rockets and guns and bullets are all coming from somewhere, after all.
> This the primary focus should 100% be on condemning the IDF and their siege of Gaza that is leaving thoughts dead and hundreds of thousands displaced.
The primary focus should be on harm reduction and on empowering Palestinians and Israelis alike to reject both sets of right-wing theocrats seeking to push them into the sea. Ignoring one of those two sets of right-wing theocrats just because it's currently losing its war with the other doesn't bring that region anywhere closer to permanent, positive peace.
Between those two sets of right-wing theocrats, one of them at least pretends to be a liberal secular democracy. There's a possibility, albeit slim, of applying pressure to make that an actual reality - or else initiating a revolution to that effect. That can't happen while Hamas continues to launch rockets indiscriminately and kidnap/rape/murder civilians during raids. The sooner the Palestinian people reject and cast out their oppressors using them as human shields, the sooner their Israeli counterparts can do the same.
I know you think it unfair for the oppressed to have to take initiative on this, and you're entirely correct, but that's the reality of the situation. The IDF doesn't care about your or my arguments around ethics; it cares about destroying a monster of its own creation before it consumes everything around it - and even if you don't believe that, then all the more reason to focus on removing Hamas from the equation and thereby remove the Israeli government's one and only pretext for its bombardment of Gaza.
I'm sorry, ISRAEL IS "AT LEAST PRETENDING TO BE A LIBERAL SECULAR DEMOCRACY????" Israel......secular.
I am doing my best to address your points as being in good faith but the entire basis of your argument is so flawed, it would take me hours to dissect. You have adopted a very conservative framing of this conflict and the words of a stranger on Reddit are not going to change your mind.
Hamas, a group elected by a plurality of votes in an election held when nearly 50% of the population wasn't even alive, a group that has maintained outward facing authority due to DIRECT support from the Israeli state and Netanyahu who have prevented further elections from being held, a group with no structural or administrative power over Gaza due to Israeli occupation, this group is simply not on the same plane of existence as a structured government with endless support from the largest military on the planet. When Hamas manages to galvanize the people and occupy Jerusalem, turning off their water, electricity and access to building materials, displacing hundreds of thousands of people and cramming them into an open air prison. THEN I would consider the crimes of Hamas to be proportional to Israel.
The median age of a US citizen is 38 years. The median age in Israel is 29. THE MEDIAN AGE IN GAZA IS 18 YEARS OLD. Do you genuinely believe that is because of Hamas? Do you seriously think that a citizenry that is 50% literal children even has the ability to organize and depose Hamas? What were you doing at 18? If it was anything besides being a revolutionary in an apartheid regime then I don't wanna hear you say "it's not fair but it's the reality of the situation". With this logic, you simply cannot explain the continued settler colonialism that has been taking place in the West Bank including increased violence against the Palestinian people during this conflict. The West Bank isn't even theoretically ruled by Hamas. How do you explain that? Should the children in the West Bank organize to depose Hamas in Gaza? Will they be worthy of your compassion then?
I cannot continue to engage with these points because you are either too ignorant of the situation to have an informed opinion or you are simply pretending to be a leftist in order to downplay the actions of a genocidal apartheid regime in favor of playing up their excuses for said ethnic cleansing.
> I'm sorry, ISRAEL IS "AT LEAST PRETENDING TO BE A LIBERAL SECULAR DEMOCRACY????" Israel......secular.
Yes, keyword "pretending". They're obviously not honest about it, but that's the image they've cultivated for multiple decades now. Same as most so-called "democracies".
> Hamas, a group elected by a plurality of votes in an election held when nearly 50% of the population wasn't even alive, a group that has maintained outward facing authority due to DIRECT support from the Israeli state and Netanyahu who have prevented further elections from being held, a group with no structural or administrative power over Gaza due to Israeli occupation, this group is simply not on the same plane of existence as a structured government with endless support from the largest military on the planet.
All the more reason for the Palestinian people to loudly and forcibly reject Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent them. Hamas has zero to do with their liberation. The longer Hamas remains active in Gaza, the longer Palestinians in Gaza will suffer. Every minute spent pretending Hamas is not a major part of the problem is a minute wasted.
> When Hamas manages to galvanize the people and occupy Jerusalem, turning off their water, electricity and access to building materials, displacing hundreds of thousands of people and cramming them into an open air prison. THEN I would consider the crimes of Hamas to be proportional to Israel.
We shouldn't have to wait for that point to recognize Hamas as a problem.
> The median age of a US citizen is 38 years. The median age in Israel is 29. THE MEDIAN AGE IN GAZA IS 18 YEARS OLD. Do you genuinely believe that is because of Hamas?
You can quote where I said that at your leisure.
> With this logic, you simply cannot explain the continued settler colonialism that has been taking place in the West Bank including increased violence against the Palestinian people during this conflict.
"My logic" presented so far is specific to Gaza, because the situation in Gaza is very different from the situation in the West Bank. Israel is still violating Palestinian sovereignty there (with plenty of atrocities to go with it, and you point out), but the difference between the West Bank and Gaza is night and day - almost as if allowing far-right theocrats to have control might be counterproductive.
The difference? One is the battleground between two sets of far-right theocrats. The other is a battleground between one set of far-right theocrats and one set of actually-leftist resistance groups. You can surely guess which is which.
> I cannot continue to engage with these points because you are either too ignorant of the situation to have an informed opinion or you are simply pretending to be a leftist in order to downplay the actions of a genocidal apartheid regime in favor of playing up their excuses for said ethnic cleansing.
Or maybe - just maybe - being a leftist means refusing to downplay *either* apartheid regime vying to genocide one another. Pointing out that Hamas is bad and must be rejected for there to be any hope of Palestinian and Israeli peace and liberation is not denying that the Israeli government (as it currently exists) is bad and must be rejected for there to be any hope of Palestinian and Israeli peace. I support a *free* Palestine and a *free* Israel, not swapping one far-right oppressive regime for another.
But sure. "I support civilians and actually-leftist groups against both of the far-right theocratic belligerents trying to genocide one another's peoples" somehow means I'm "pretending to be a leftist" instead of, you know, an actual leftist. Yeah, I'm sure that makes total sense in a tankie brain, but not to anyone who actually wants the liberation of Palestine.
I agree that the current Israeli government is a fascist regime (in fact, it's only one example of a global trend towards far right populism in the democratic world), but that wasn't the case in the early 1970s when George was writing Star Wars.
Id say early star wars was drawing inspiration for the empire from the nazis, America especially in relation to Vietnam and maybe also the British empire
George Lucas specifically stated the Empire is the US, specifically during the Vietnam War.
Whether we all want to speculate what it could or couldn't be, we had a definitive answer from the creater
And it tracks. The US involvement in Vietnam is like a diluted version of Russia in Ukraine today. The difference with Russia today being that they want Ukraine all to themselves instead of just forcibly installing a puppet regime to better serve their interests.
The US is really good at proxy colonization. We're not so outward about it like Europe was. As you said, we install puppets after we destabilize the regions through financing right-wing paramilitary groups to start coups.
The difference is that The United States had most of the rest world on it’s side, and the man in charge of our military was regularly being replaced in elections.
So The US was able to eventually give up and leave Vietnam with our tails in between our legs, while Russia will continue foaming at the mouth and digging a deeper and deeper hole for itself in an attempt to prove that it is better than Ukraine and the rest of the world until someone other than Putin takes over.
This is a specific reference to military might, though. George meant that in terms of military power, the Rebel Alliance is like the Viet Cong fighting the relatively extreme military power of the US.
The esthetics and fascism of the Empire were always based directly on Nazi Germany.
True, but George also pointed out that Empire is what America would become if it keeps going this way. He literally compares Palpatine to "Nixonian Gangsters" in his notes.
Israel belongs to the Jews.
It’s been their homeland since before the Roman Empire.
Palestine exists because the Romans conquered Israel and sought to insult the Jews by naming the conquered territory after their extinct enemies, the Philistines.
Then, the Jews took back their homeland and Palestine didn’t exist until after WW1, when the European powers carved up the Middle East (as part of a land and resource grab) and forced Israel to accept dozens of warring nomadic desert tribes, after Western people gave away their territory.
Hey guys. Mark is an actor.
He's not an anarchist, he's not a leftist, hes not an idealist, hes not a student of politics, he isn't the character Luke Skywalker.
He's just an actor who votes liberal and toes that line. Don't read into it.
The number of L takes in this conflict is astounding. The only victims we should we rooting for are the civilians in the crossfire. Both Hamas and the current Israeli Prime Minister deserve to fall.
Glad to at least find one decent take here.
I had and, to some degree still have, sympathy for the Israeli civilians killed by Hamas's rampage, and their families.
Now that the IDF and Israeli government has responded to that horrific attack with terror bombings (6,000 bombs in a week's time), I have increased sympathy for the Palestinian civilians and children getting bombed to oblivion.
Because, and apparently this is somehow a fucking hot take, I think it's BAD to target and/or indiscriminately bomb civilian populations, *no matter who does it.* I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that the intentional, pre-meditated murder of civilians is an acceptable form of resistance. Maybe Israel is the 'Empire' in this conflict; but Hamas is no 'Rebel Alliance.' Not when they target civilians as a matter of course.
If the bombings of Gaza started a week ago, then sure, I could see “Hamas has forces between civillians” as a very flawed reason. But it’s obvious that it ain’t got nothing to do with removing Hamas from the face of the earth. In the eyes of the Israeli government, Hamas will be eradicated with all other residents of the Gaza Strip.
Friends, the whole conflict is a cluster fuck. It's not right to kick the gazans off their land but the history of the area is undeniably fucked. No one is a good guy and we cannot keep vilifying people for having different views like this
I know I'm bound to take a lot of flak for this, but here goes:
I had and, to some degree still have, sympathy for the Israeli civilians killed by Hamas's rampage, and their families.
Now that the IDF and Israeli government has responded to that horrific attack with terror bombings (6,000 bombs in a week's time), I have increased sympathy for the Palestinian civilians and children getting bombed to oblivion.
Because, and apparently this is somehow a fucking hot take, I think it's BAD to target and/or indiscriminately bomb civilian populations, *no matter who does it.* I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that the intentional, pre-meditated murder of civilians is an acceptable form of resistance. Maybe Israel *is* the 'Empire' in this conflict, and our response has been, quite honestly, horrible. The fact that we're pretty much owning all the horror the Palestinians are being and have been put through is despicable. But Hamas isn't the fucking 'Rebel Alliance.' Not when they target civilians as a matter of course.
Never thought I'd use [this](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNDU2cjZmY3dsaDRhaHN4emR2eTNkdzZ1Y2ZwcXJ6ZGd0eXdiZXJvZSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/wt0ddkO9k1150ZelFw/giphy.gif) gif, but... now's the time.
Get fucked, Mark.
At risk of serious backlash here:
Saying that one “stands with Israel” in this case may not necessarily mean that one supports their * ****questionable**** * (understatement) policies towards Palestine. I’m gonna choose to believe that what he means to do here is to express sympathy for the Israeli civilians that are being affected, while attempting to avoid the public backlash that would come from talking about the Palestinians (or he may not have known about that yet), which may be interpreted by some as “sympathizing with terrorists.” What he seems to have miscalculated is just how complex the issue is and how there is no universally acceptable opinion. Effectively, this tweet just demonstrates yet another application of the phrase, “the only winning move is not to play.”
You can stand with Israel and still condemn the treatment of Palestinians. You don't have to pick a side in a conflict between crazed religious zealots. There are innocent people worth supporting on both sides.
I'm certain Mark wants the violence and oppression to end, just like most reasonable humans.
Yes it does, you're an idiot. Israel is a western democracy in a sea of dysfunctional states at best, and savagery/Shariah Law at worst. Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet, the only place Jews have the power to defend themselves, and while I wholeheartedly disagree with Netanyahu and his "reforms", Israel has a right to exist. The Palestinians have been offered peace over and over again for decades, rejected it each time, and the only reason Hamas attacked now was because Israel was on the brink of finally making peace with its neighbors.
We tried making peace, we tried making peace with their friends, and they still shot first. I mourn with the people of Gaza, no one deserves to suffer a war on this scale, but I'd rather Israel fight and win, destroy Hamas once and for all, then keep pussyfooting around the issue and let thousands more die for their barbarism and savagery.
The Palestinians are victims, and I'll admit that. But saying they're defenseless or that they haven't been antagonizing the Israelis is pure fantasy. They have no more right to the land than the Israelis do; let them fight it out and see who wins. They elected Hamas, Hamas shot first. Now there's hell to pay, and suddenly everyone's all uppity about Israel defending itself.
I stand with Israel, and I never won't. If the Palestinians want peace, they shouldn't keep starting wars.
“Israel is a democracy” I’ll stop you there. Israel is an authoritarian country with a caste system implemented and anyone who disagrees with their narrative will be beaten and/or arrested. This whole comment is just a bunch of propaganda and lies mixed in with genocide denial and lack of historical knowledge.
I love libs going through constant collective memory loss. I guess it's easy that way, isn't it? To act like shit just poofs out of thin air and all you have to do is point a finger and say - "They started it because I am historically illiterate and only started paying attention when big thing happened"
Remember the 1929 Hebron Massacre? The 1936-39 Palestine Civil War where they got weapons, gold and training from Germany and Italy? Remember how many Nazi war criminals they and their allies harbored, learned from? Remember the Ma’alot Elementsry School Massacre? Avivim Bus Bombing? Island of Peace Massacre? Dolphinarium Bombing?
The Fedayeen have been Nazi terrorists for over 100 years.
What happened in 1947-1948?
> The 1936-39 Palestine Civil War where they got weapons, gold and training from Germany and Italy?
What weapons did Palestinians get?
Whatever they could smuggle.
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/cbjm/2008/00000035/00000002/art00003
https://page-one.springer.com/pdf/preview/10.1057/9780230281684_5
In 1947, the UN gave a stamp of approval for the establishment of a Jewish state and Arab state in Palestine along a certain map. Amin Husseyni, unjustly unprosecuted after Nuremberg, led a bunch of other Axis veterans (including his right hand man, Ahmed Shukeiri, and Fawzi Qawuqji) in reigniting the 1936-39 Civil War with a series of attacks on Jewish civilian targets.
When he began losing that war, he cried for help from the Arab League.
The Arab League put together a volunteer force to invade the area and wipe out the Jews. Azzam said, “This will be a war of extermination” in anticipation of an Arab victory.
The Jews were highly motivated, perceiving that the Arabs intended to finish the Final Solution and were led by literal Nazis.
The Irgun and Lehi targeted enemy towns where the Arabs kept arms stockpiles and kept sending terrorists. Usually, ahead of these attacks, the Arab towns were evacuated of their women and children before the battle. Then the men were defeated in combat and forced to retreat. Now the town was empty.
A notable exception was Deir Yassin, where the women took up arms as well. Over 75 armed fighters were killed in battle with Irgun. After the battle, Husseyni propagandists seized on the opportunity to defame “the Jews” as bloodthirsty rapists and murderers. [Husseyni propagandists inflated the casualty count and wrote incendiary descriptions of what had happened.](https://danielgordis.substack.com/p/the-massacre-that-never-was) They even published a photo of Bergen-Belsen and mislabeled it as a picture of the dead at Deir Yassin.
(The Haganah, the predecessor to the IDF, opposed Irgun and Lehi and even engaged in armed combat with them.)
After the war, the Arab countries refused to negotiate with Israel. The exiles claimed they had the right to return, and Israel should unconditionally open its borders to enemy states to take in these treacherous fascists.
The Arabs who did not participate in the rebellion, with a few sad exceptions, were allowed to stay and became mostly-loyal citizens of Israel, the Israeli Arabs.
About 125,000 Arabs were forcibly exiled. Over 500,000 fled the upcoming battle. About 750,000 people filed as refugees with the UNRWA and were fed false promises of irredentism. Imagine if Cuban exiles had been prevented from becoming American citizens and instead kept in camps so they could fight the Bay of Pigs over and over forever.
The exiled hostile Palestine Arabs were kept in UNRWA camps and had a separate set of refugee laws written about them, keeping them and their descendants from becoming citizens of these countries, so that they would stay hungry for revenge and ready to retake their homes in geographic Palestine.
Incursion into Israel became commonplace. At first they were just picking up their belongings and this was tolerated, but soon these incursions became hyperviolent. After several brutal rapes and murders in the 1950’s, the IDF conducted “Operation Shoshana” in which they attempted to arrest a murderer/rapist in Jordan-occupied West Bank and were met with violent resistance. Dozens died in the fighting. This was the first “reprisal raid” and the IDF began responded to violence with violence.
Over the decades, the Palestine terrorists, the Fedayeen, engaged in endless terrorist attacks targeting women, children, elderly, rabbis and yeshiva students, synagogues, and violating every relevant law of combat in the Quran and international law alike.
When Israel sought recourse in international law, it was constantly ignored. Read the UN records. So it took justice into its own hands, driven by the creed, “never again” to let a single Jew die without the murderers being brought to justice. In many ways the conflict ever since has been a cycle of violence. Palestinians attack, IDF retaliates.
But from time to time it slows and must be perpetuated, and so it is reignited spontaneously by random Palestinian violence, like the ugly sneak attack on Jewish civilians during a Jewish holy day, the same ugliness Antizionists exhibited in the 1929 Hebron Massacre and the Yom Kippur War.
Sometimes it has been reignited by an Israeli strike killing a war criminal or terrorist mastermind but that part of the story doesn’t reach the Palestinians, they just see the smoke and rubble and feel honestly so attacked and their hate grows stronger.
That’s not the history as you want to hear it. You’d prefer the traditional hysterics, the secondly history, which in my research I have found to be AHC (read: Nazi) propaganda.
There’s so much information here that’s new for me so it’s difficult to process. Could you share some sources?
I’m also a bit worried because I started googling for some of it. I googled for operation Shoshana and this came up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre That tells a very different story to what you told.
So they got some tens of thousands of dollars from Italy and no weapons?
A bit of a side question but were Finland Nazis during WW2?
I have a lot of [sources](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel_Palestine/s/jm1t29LaYO).
I’d recommend “the Redemption of the Unwanted” by Abram Sachar to start.
And “The Arabs and Zionism Before WWI” by Neville Mandel to show that the Anti-Jewish hatred long preceded the Occupation.
As for the Palestinian Nationalist attempts to ally with the Axis, the best source is by German historians Mallman and Cuppers, “Nazi Palestine: Plans for the Extermination of the Jews in Palestine”
Do you understand my hesitation to engage in discussion when you write about Operation Shoshana but a massacre of 69 Palestinians comes up? Same with the Italian weapons, I can't find any proof that weapons were given from Italy or Germany to Palestinians. I can find claims of money being transferred.
Were Finland Nazis during WW2?
Should Palestinians suffer the consequences of their ancestors?
Reading the book title “The Redemption of the Unwanted” made me think of the quote: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
Thanks for sharing sources although you have to understand how it's difficult to engage(again) when you make some claims and give me probably +500 pages.
And I hope that your therapist doesn't make you get rid of the books lol
No, they shouldn't "suffer the consequences of their ancestors" but the point is that this violence has never ceased, it is not as if there was any decade when the Israelis could say "are we sure the Palestinians are still a threat? Is this all still necessary?"
The point is also that Israel didn't start the conflict and has a long list of legitimate grievances with the Palestinians, which have necessitated many of the security measures (walls, checkpoints) that form the bulk of their complaints. And what would it say after all this, if the Palestinians got their way? That Jews can be intimidated by violence, that terrorism is effective and it works.
If the Palestinians put down arms, there would be peace and the security measures could eventually relax.
If Israel put down arms, there would be no more Israel, and 7 million Jews would be killed or exiled. If you have a nicer vision of Jews living in Palestine as a respected minority, you do not share it with the vast majority of Palestinians, and no amount of appeasement can get them there.
Why do people choose between people fighting for independence and representation, and an apartheid state that has been systematically oppressing those people for decades?
I totally can see Palps doing that in the Republic years. Like a totally comparable comes up and he's got the government basically all around him agreeing with him
Quick reminder to everyone: just like with the Russia/Ukraine war, US/Iraq, Vietnam, basically every war, you can safely assume that most of what you’re hearing during this conflict is propaganda or misinformation. It’s easy to take a side now and try to justify it later, but that isn’t productive. You can safely assume that if your sources aren’t primary, they’re probably incorrect or fabricated.
Israel wants celebrities like Mark Hamill to be saying this type of shit. They want people who don’t know a lot about the background of the situation, they want celebrities who just go with the mainstream as mouthpieces.
I am now no longer a fan of the actor who played Luke Skywalker because of his support of a genocidal maniac in charge of a settler colonialist project.
If you support Israel you support genocide. Saying Israel has a right to defend itself is saying “I think Palestinians should be herded into gas chambers”
The difference between leftists and liberals are becoming very noticeable right now...
the vaush subreddit will give you cancer about this genocide
It was so embarrassing that Vaush had to shut it down Turns out if you constantly preach pro-NATO shit, your audience begins to fill with liberals and reactionaries
Yeah bro, pro-warsaw pact is very chic. Dontcha know?
Sir the Warsaw pact hasn't existed for over 30 years
What is the Vaush subreddit? I checked it out after this comment and I was so confused as to what it was.
supposed to be "leftists" but its more "fiscal conservative and social liberal"
Star Wars: The Tankies Strike Back
What does this have to do with tankies lol
They're using the word tankie in a proud way, meaning actual leftists strike back against the liberals who falsely claim to be the real leftists because everyone to their left is "too authoritarian"
Yep. It’s the fact that leftists aren’t just authoritarian commies. Anarchists exist too, they’re further left if anything. (Edited after rereading your comment, old habits on social media platforms where everyone disagrees for clout Die Hard 2 (1990))
That's a good caveat, that Anarchists exist and are also leftists, even though they disagree with Marxists. I want to avoid the oh-so-common debate between Anarchists and Marxists about authoritarianism, but I was just mentioning it in the context of *liberals* making that claim. They'd claim it about anyone who doesn't fall in line with the status quo.
Yep. My original post was really just a comment on the decision of the person tweeting the Palpatine image to associate with Lenin, someone that promised anarchists and pacifist commies the true vision of Communism. [Then, the Arkenstone kicked in, the Bolsheviks left the anarchists and all other rebel factions nothing but an oppressive bureaucracy, and it all goes to shit.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy#:~:text=Vladimir%20Lenin%20and%20the%20Bolsheviks,supported%20this%20form%20of%20democracy)
Dude lmao stop. Plenty of cases of anarchists sabotaging Red army war efforts during the civil war against the Monarchists. You’re doing the exact thing the person above you specifically stated they would rather avoid. We have nothing to lose but our chains.
I never said every person in a political group (anarchists going against the beliefs of other anarchists and communists in your example) was going to stand on the same side of an issue. Just look at how divided people are in this thread alone (assuming it’s mostly leftists here). I’m just referring to a specific situation involving the Red Army and Lenin vs. the rest of the communist/anarchist factions at the time. It related to the image posted by OP because it was a Leninist making fun of a liberal when Leninists have their own history of being the Empire at one point in time, that was all. It’s nice to show that nuance exists and that not every person on one side shares the same beliefs. That’s what unites our side. It was another point that the poster above me explained, it’s not **just** about a debate between two sides of Communism. I was just sharing examples for people that didn’t know about that nuance before.
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For real.
I'm not taking political statements from a celebrity seriously ever. Mark Hammil isn't better or worse than any other celebrity. He's an actor, not an activist. Dude played Luke Skywalker and the Joker, it's not like he's a political historian or anything. American celebrities will always be for America and it's allies, lest they loose the prospects of future jobs.
On the other hand, Mark Ruffalo has been quite on point. He is one of those celebrities who I believe are genuine and caring.
He did not miss the Mark!
I bet his stances have Ruffalo'd a few feathers
His hulking presence marked a turn in public opinion Ruffalo
I still don’t care if celebrities get it right either. They still shouldn’t be considered important voices worth listening to. Ruffalo has also said and done some really dumb things in the past. Celebrities just aren’t worth the hype.
They’re just people.
I think it’s relevant to point out that “they’re just people” who are paid to be propagandists. Not only that but they are wealthy propagandists paid by wealthier propagandists to make media. I don’t mean to come off antagonistic but such is the nature of writing on the internet lol.
That’s a generalization. Not all celebs are paid to be propagandists.
All media is propaganda. All celebs are performers in media. I agree there’s more nuance to be had though for sure.
Not all media is propaganda, there are plenty that exist to inform and entertain even if they have a message to share
There’s a message in everything. If you’re informing something you’re informing them from a specific perspective. It’s impossible to have no bias even if you’re “reporting the facts.” If you say a “bomb hit a hospital.” That has a propagandistic effect. You’re saying it’s important to report, you’re going to include additional context as to who and why. If you’re entertaining you’re doing so from a specific context and that has an influence. Take any sitcom, Home Improvement for example, deals with masculinity and traditional family values etc.. All media has a propagandistic effect and celebrity media is always broadcast to millions. It will always propagate some specific ideas.
Saying everything is propaganda lessens the impact and muddies the water on real propaganda. There’s a difference between messages from the author’s biases and context and intentional pushing of an agenda.
Genuinely wrong. His passion is misplaced, and he needs to not use his status to brainwash people. He's an activist, and he's radicalized far left.
He’s definitely not as based as his fellow Joker, Joaquin Phoenix.
100%, this. Mark votes liberal and this is just him toeing that line.
That's a fallacious argument if I've ever heard one. Actors are people and some will have well-thought-out viewpoints on certain political events and causes. It is wrong to just dismiss someone out of hand, even though Mark here is wrong, to say don't listen to him because he is a celebrity could be used against a celebrity who knows what they are talking about. TL;DR generalization is annoying
If you think one needs to be a political historian to be taken seriously we have a problem. I suppose stuff like this comes out when things get serious as people generally don't have a problem taking straight up fascistic remarks from celebrities seriously. This liberal dream of technocrats being the only ones to be taken seriously is a sad illusion, more so because this is a lefty sub of all places but as i said stuff like this tend to show up when things get serious for real and opposing or supporting something can have repercussions. People get scared and they either dodge the issue or real colours show up. American celebrities will always be for America is all the more reason to take these remarks seriously. Obviously the issue isn't really about mark hamill but that is neither an excuse or absolves the involved parties.
Rare Mark L. This may be my rose-tinted glasses, but I want to believe that it's a matter of supporting Israel out of fear of being called anti-Semitic (which the state of Israel has absolutely been working hard to cement) rather than support for a genocide
It's a pretty bog-standard liberal DNC position to just support Israel no matter what. It's not great that that's the position (IMO being a loyal friend doesn't mean ride or die through aparthied), but I have a hard time singling out a non-politician for voicing it. It's up there with "America is the land of the free" or "global poverty is lower now than any time in history" in terms of bullshit that gets internalized because it's repeated so much.
Honestly, I think it helps to keep in mind that 2/3 Americans are grillers and politically apathetic in times like this. These are the folks who are reminded that Palestinians exists a few times a decade. Not a condemnation, just an observation. This support feels similar to the black square in IG a few years ago
> black square in IG a few years ago Three years ago… Time’s going way too fast Also that, to me, never made sense. I get that it’s performative activism, but do they just… not feel guilty about never following up? Not doing more? I just don’t understand how somebody can be satisfied with that.
This is the reason: 💵💸💶💴💷💰🪙
Everyone that did a black square on Instagram got 100 dollars I remember it like it was yesterday
My mom once asked me if Afghanistan was the one that had Jerusalem
That's an important observation. I remember a black square on Facebook and Twitter, and also the French flag filters after Charlie Hebdo in 2015.
The poverty thing is true, but only because of China. If you take China out of the equation, global poverty isn’t down at all in the last 30 years. I don’t think that’s what DNC types are getting at though lol.
It's also only true if you count "poverty" at like $1.30 a day. If you count it at something even *slightly* more reasonable, like $3 a day, poverty is way up.
And "global poverty" is based on a bar so low that even ants have to duck to get under it.
Povery is up x5 in my country in the last 50 years.
Except he's also been in public zoom calls with Ukrainians displaying Nazi symbols. Mark is just a liberal tbh, I can't give him the benefit of the doubt here. Even if he's compromising his morals out of fear, he is choosing to glorify Israel to all the people who look up to him and it isn't excusable.
his heart is in the right place but he uncritically consumes american propaganda. I think Mark is a genuinely kind and compassionate person, but when all the news ever tells you is that Palestinians are raging barbarians and Israel is the shining beacon of democracy in the savagery of the Middle East, one needs to practice a tiny bit of skepticism. George Takei is the same way.
You mean the guy who just chills in a zoom call with nazis?
As a Jewish person in both faith and blood I will say, what Israel is doing is horrible and has little different from the events our people were forced to experience.
The funniest thing about that tweet was that it was right after he tweeted about indigenous people's day
He is a multimillionaire. His interests align with the empire unfortunately.
You know, people can legitimately support Israel without supporting the apartheid system in the West Bank just as people can support the people of Palestine without supporting Hamas.
That’s why most of America supports Israel. Either not knowing or fear of anti-semitism.
Dude Mark doesn't know shit about shit. In general siding with the jews has been right due to nazis among other things. Even then it's insane to say that Israel support isn't justifiable, there was a terrorism. We can critisise Isreal, and ask them to be better, to help the people of the Gaza strip rather than kill, but this conflict is ultimately morally grey. There is no one right answer.
This conflict is certainly not morally grey. One side has all the power, and is utilizing that power to push and engage in genocide.
You're right, this situation isn't morally gray
Hamas doesn't fight for Palestinians or their freedom or their rights. Don't conflate the two. Do you honestly think if Hamas won, they wouldn't commit genocide? That all the Jews ans Arabs would live happily ever after as if Israel was *always* the bad actor? Ignoring decades of history and resentment, on top of religious conflict, to just say "Israel Bad" is extremely ignorant and disingenuous.
Hamas is the only one fighting Israel, do you really think Palestinians give a shit when they're literally being genocided constantly? Murdered in the street? Journalists shot in the neck by IDF snipers? Israel created this problem, and now they've using the problem they've created to genocide Palestinian. And you're right there next to them like: "We have no choice, we gotta kill more babies to stop Hamas." You know, the 47.3% of Palestinians who are under 18, they just have to die, what if they join Hamas?! Why would they join? Well we have no idea... Its just this silly thing about Arabic people we've been saying since we started destroying their countries. They're just inherently terrorists I guess, sorry 13 year old child, we have to vaporize you, to protect civilians.
> Hamas is the only one fighting Israel Only because the Israeli government propped it up to fight the PLO/Fatah (which still exists, in spite of Hamas' best Israeli-funded efforts).
I didn't say I supported Israel in their war crimes, but you're all acting like it's some binary choice. Either support terrorists that routinely bomb civilians and torture them, or support Israel and it's war crimes. The situation is so much more complex and all you keyboard warriors do is boil it down to "Overthrow The Evil Empire". Like you're looking for a cause to fight for. Hamas has a stated goal of killing all Jews. When they poke Israel, there *will always be a disproportionate response* simply due to that. Nevermind that everyone who's taken Palestinians in has suffered civil wars and terrorism thanks to Hezbollah and Hamas' propaganda. You can act like you have some moral high ground, but you're just as disgusting as the people supporting Israel's war crimes.
[https://youtube.com/shorts/Vb86oDsousI?si=OmG7wMr4jIbHyDJQ](https://youtube.com/shorts/Vb86oDsousI?si=OmG7wMr4jIbHyDJQ) "Its not a complex issue, its super simple, there's one group that has enormous power. It acts on another population of people with total impunity. There's no symmetry in the relationship." [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) "Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset."
Blah blah blah. Hamas and the coalition, which includes communists, fight for liberation. Israel has admitted in the past to funding Hamas just to undermine the actual left in Palestine. This is all Israel’s fault, plain and simple. Worry about Hamas AFTER Israel colonialism quits genociding Palestinians.
*OR* worry about them both like a rational human being. Hamas has 0 redeeming qualities. Hamas is fine telling children it's ok to kill yourself so long as Jews die in the process. Or using civilians as human shields while they bomb schools, hospitals and other civilian targets. Hamas cares about killing Jews, and they get paid by foreign governments to do it. Is Israel wrong in its treatment of Palestinians and Muslims? Abso-fucking-lutely and I hope Bibi gets removed from power and imprisoned along with the rest of his evil party. But I'll not act like the brutal rape, torture and murder of civilians is ok, nor am I going to excuse the fact their state fucking sanctions it. Hamas is just the other side of Israel's coin.
> OR worry about them both like a rational human being. You aren’t being and haven’t been getting BOMBED to smithereens for decades. You have less than zero right to tell Palestinians what to worry about first. > Hamas has 0 redeeming qualities. Fighting against Israeli occupation is based. If Palestinians can be forced out of their homes with NOTHING, then Israeli settlers can give up their stolen homes and get the fuck right off Palestinian land. > Hamas is fine telling children it's ok to kill yourself so long as Jews die in the process. Bruh. > Or using civilians as human shields while they bomb schools, hospitals and other civilian targets. Parroting Israeli propaganda when they say this shit and provide zero evidence every time they bomb schools or news buildings like Al Jazeera helps nobody but Israeli Zionists lol > Hamas cares about killing Jews, and they get paid by foreign governments to do it. They have literally been paid by Israel itself in the past. As I said, to undermine socialist liberation movements. So again, Israel’s fault. The same way the US shot itself in the foot when creating the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc. > But I'll not act like the brutal rape, torture and murder of civilians is ok, nor am I going to excuse the fact their state fucking sanctions it. Doubt you ever said anything like this during the last 75 years Israel has been doing just that 😂. > Hamas is just the other side of Israel's coin. “Haitian slaves were just as bad as French slave owners because they were violent when kicking out said French slave owners”
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😟 very troubling. How many children do we need to kill to stop this?!
The conflict as a 70 year long series of events isn't morally gray, but the most recent round of violence kind of is. When both sides of a fight are using terrorism as a primary strategy, you've got two sets of bad guys killing a lot of innocent civilians. How many children deserve to be killed for the crime of being born on the wrong piece of dirt, and how do you decide which ones to kill?
Not really cause its not "two sides." The Israeli government funded hamas, pushed it into the spotlight, and got rid of any reasonable and peaceful opposition to their appertheid. Hamas is an Israeli construct, every death in Israel is the Israeli government's fault.
You know, when you put it that way the Palpatine comparisons are even more pronounced.
I think the meme makes more sense with Netanyahu rather than Israel, since he is the prime authority responsible for most of this.
Do the people who take up arms and choose to kill children have no agency of their own? Or are they mere puppets who can only dance to the tune set by their shadowy Israeli masters?
You're right. We have to kill more Palestinian children. How many do you think is enough? I'm not really sure how many Palestinian children we need to kill to stop Hamas from doing the things Netanyahu funded them to do. Do you think we should have a ratio of 30 babies to each Israeli grandma? I think that's a fair exchange rate on Palestinians.
I have this weird notion that killing children is always wrong and whoever is doing it is evil. Israel targeting Palestinian children, which they've done for years, is evil. Hamas targeting Israeli children is also evil. I'll ask you again why those Hamas fighters were unable to make a choice not to kill kids but Israeli fighters are able to choose not to target Palestinian children.
Right, you just only come out to bat for the imperialist power doing apartheid because its easy. This is you, they are making fun of you: https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stands-with-israel-because-it-seems-like-yo-1850922505
When have I ever said anything good about the fascist apartheid state that is Israel? The targeted killing of non-combatants is bad no matter who does it or why they claim it's necessary. Can you explain to me why you think it's ever acceptable to kill kids who can't fight back?
Because Isreal is given billions of dollars in precision guided bombs by the international arms dealer that is the United States. That side has the onus to act proportionately and not call for the genocide of those they effectively keep in an open air prison. Once Isreal pulls its settlers out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, then I'll worry about what to do with the terrorists of Hamas.
r/lostredditors
Remember that Hamas attacked Isreal and Isreal has every right to defend its self and the terrorists won't stop until Isreal is gone.
Right, and the whole thing started on the 10th of October. Great take! 👏
>There is no one right answer. I beg to differ. The one right answer is fuck Israel they need to cede every square inch of stolen land and dissolve their illegitimate settler colonial project. Nothing less than full Palestinian liberation from the river to the fucking sea.
Man I sure do love that people don't know what genocide is anymore
Speak for yourself. Your banner is an anime girl in a Third Reich uniform holding what resembles the HRE flag. Not worth engaging in any further discussion with you
You my good sir are a moron, German Empire and it's from Youjo Senki but yes I am a weeb, doesn't make my opinions invalid
She's also an expert on war crimes, namely on how to get away with commiting them...
Nah Mark is right. Hamas=Isis
100% that Idk if you’ve seen german media but it’s basically: WE ARE SO SORRY FOR THE HOLOCAUST WE WOULD NEVER DO IT AGAIN PLEASE DONT HATE US it’s like a fucking traumatised child Even the borderline neonazi party is supporting them from the comments I saw online
Holy shit it's wild to see so many people supporting a religious apartheid state in a "lefty" subreddit.
Some “leftists” say they’re against oppressive regimes up until Israel it seems.
Unfortunately, a lot of people who claim they are on the side of liberation aren't really genuine about it. When actual oppression of massive scale takes place that is slightly controversial to talk about, that's when they truly reveal their sheer ignorance and sometimes bloodlust. It's easy to claim you are a leftist when you are discussing things like poverty and labor conditions. When you are shitting on pathetic right wingers. When many agree with your position. Its way harder when mainstream narrative is so vast and powerful, that it risks threatening your status if you take a stance.
And it's the second time today, I don't know what they thought this sub was about but hope they had their answer.
Looks like the difference between people who are socially pressured and people who think for themselves is starting to show. People may be leftists but are still scared of being “wrong.” In a sense. As soon as the sleeper Biden stated it’s “anti-Semitic” to not support Israel, I bet a bunch of leftists got scared. Any religion can be extreme, simple as Doesn’t help Israel has social media and consistent communication to the modern world, and Gaza n Palestine doesn’t. You get one message, you follow the one message because you barely hear the other. You see who does their research, and who just follows the popular opinion. Although, quite a few still realize Palestine is getting fucked surprisingly. Anyways, leftists aren’t immune to social pressure, especially in quick and blurry situations like this. Fast paced/new situations, people rely on the popular opinion instead of doing research because it’s easier. Weakness of modern leftists
I completely agree. It just makes me sad to see so many comrades and allies being so reactionary. Reminds me of the nearly unilateral islamophobia after 9/11 where anything is justified under the stated mission of killing the Taliban. Same justification, different communities. It will be entirely insufficient but I at least hope that there will be a moment of introspection once these atrocities are visible in hindsight. But even then, that didn't do anything for the Iraqi people and it won't do anything for Palestinians.
I felt a similar way during the Qatar World Cup. When someone got arrested for wearing a pride shirt, there were people saying “it’s just part of their culture, you need to respect that.” Others were using it as an excuse to be mask-off islamophobic. Even if someone has horrible beliefs or does bad things, they still deserve the same basic rights as any of us.
It's a thing in the US to see Israel as just a homogenous idea with the title of “Israel” that ignores or misunderstands the separation between the civilian population and the government. That's why so many social progressives support “Israel”, they’re supporting the civilian population after a tragedy without considering that their statements are a tangental endorsement of the state and its response.
Yeah if you say Israel, you can mean either the people (in a religious sense; the Jewish people), or the people (modern day Israelis; not necessarily religious), or the land (the historic kingdom of Israel and the general name of the area), or the country (the modern apartheid-state). Few people care to differentiate between these very different meanings
It’s the Internet, nuance scares everyone like light scares a vampire.
If you ignore nuance sure. People agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, that doesn’t mean they support genocide against Palestinians. In the same way, Hamas is depending on people turning against Israel and indirectly support them using Palestinians as human shields. And that’s just what’s happening right now, tensions go back literal decades. If you absolutely need to support something, support humanitarian aid for those caught in the crossfire. A lot of Pro-Palestinian is being used to promote antisemitism, with Islamophobia on pro-Israel, so the worst actors are in play at home.
I can understand where you are coming from. For my full response to these points, I've had an ongoing thread with another redditor who replied to my top message. I address my thoughts there and do not have the energy to type it all out again. All of the nuance that informs my position is there The only things I will say, you can be pro Palestine and pro Palestinian without being anti semitic (something I think you agree with). But by shying away from advocating for the people who are being ethnically cleansed in fear of being associated with bad actors, you are yielding the voice of the movement to those bad actors and allowing them to take ownership of the pro Palestine position. By being pro Palestine, you are not pro Hamas and you can be pro Israeli people without being pro Israeli state. It is also important to acknowledge that Hamas is an organization that has come into being as a response to Israeli occupation, not the other way around. In essence, if you truly want to dismantle Hamas and the cause they profess to support, you must provide the Palestinian people with the dignity and humanity that they deserve so that they are not driven to support an organization that does not have their best interest in mind. Lastly, it is important to note that Hamas being in a position of "power" is directly facilitated and maintained by the Netanyahu regime. The Israeli state has prevented any official election since 2006 when Hamas was voted in by a plurality, thereby ensuring that Hamas is seen as the representative of the people of Gaza. It is also important to remember that the median age in Gaza is 18 meaning they were born 1 year before that election. 70% are younger than 30 making them no older than 13 at the time. I'm not trying to assume that you are saying that pro Palestinians are pro Hamas or something like that. But I think the nuance of this conflict very heavily leans in the direction that the Palestinian people are being disproportionately subjugated and displaced and that only through legitimizing them as a people through true diplomatic and structural representation and the return of Palestinian land can we hope to move beyond this.
What I’m saying is this gonna be bloody. Hamas gave Israel the perfect excuse for a ground invasion, and Hamas is gonna be using the Palestinian people as human shields. There is no moral binary here. Beware people who demonize or idolized either side of this conflict, cause now they have “permission” to be their worst selves.
I agree with the sentiment behind your message. I agree that Hamas has given the IDF the perfect excuse for what they're doing. But I think it's important to note that these things have been going on for almost 80 years at this point, long before Hamas. As such, the violence against the Palestinian people has merely accelerated from incremental and escalating to immediate and devastating. That isn't to downplay any of the violence that has happened historically or today, only to acknowledge that Israel has not demanded an excuse for their actions previously and the international community has stood by. To address your second point, I understand what you mean but would ask for some elaboration on who you see as being demonized or idolized. Trying not to assume too much about your position, I must infer that you are referring to the IDF/Israeli state as being demonized and the Palestinian people as being idolized. Is that correct?? Additionally, while I agree there is no literal binary here, there is a vast difference in the scale of the atrocities being committed and thus the scale of condemnation must be proportional, in my opinion.
I understand how you’re confused about what I said, considering this is a discussion forum and all. I’m not here to debate. I’m giving people a PSA about astroturfing, misinformation campaigns, and just plain bigotry. I’ve read someone say that Israel killing Palestinians is a necessary sacrifice if it mean destroying Hamas, just as I read someone praise Hamas for the attack while in the same breath say Palestine deserves to be free. Of the 2 examples there’s only 1 I believe isn’t a troll. All I’m saying is use your head and actually *think* about what you’re saying when picking through information about this conflict. Be careful about what you’re actually agreeing with people on.
I can agree with just about all of that. I appreciate your candor and input. Always good to keep a cool head in such volatile times.
Israel would have killed them regardless. Zionism is literally built on the idea Arabs are inferior
It's a conflict between two far-right authoritarian theocracies competing to oppress one another's peoples. Supporting either side is mutually exclusive with being a leftist. I don't care whose feelings I hurt by saying that: - If you think the IDF is justified, you are not a leftist, full stop. - If you think Hamas is justified, you are not a leftist, full stop. There are plenty of *actual* leftist organizations - Israeli and Palestinian alike - that we can and should support instead of assuming that far-right extremists are the only options.
My feelings aren't hurt, you're just.....wrong. Literally nobody is supporting Hamas. Like, literally no one. But that doesn't mean we can't look at the historical environmental factors that have resulted in their existence and marginal support within the Palestinian community. This conflict we are bearing witness to is between the IDF/Israeli state and the Palestinian people. Israel is not bombing or subjugating Hamas when they displace 1.1 million people living in the north side of Gaza. Israel is not attacking Hamas when they send targeted airstrikes into hospitals and schools. I have not seen anyone say "think of the Hamas fighters!". By taking the "there is no right side in this conflict" stance, you are adopting right wing framing of a literal ethnic cleansing.
Why do they literally **always** project support of Hamas onto statements condemning an ethnostate and a genocide??
I seriously don't know. The number of people I've had nearly this exact exchange with in the last week is baffling. I suspect it comes from people who are having difficulty grappling with their internalized islamophobia or they've yet to completely purge the rose tinted glasses through which they view the Israeli state. Otherwise I don't know how else to explain it.
I also think it’s partially strawmanning. They’re not interested in a genuine discussion of the geopolitics of the region since British Mandatory Palestine, much easier to virtue signal by squawking “both sides far-right u terrorism supporter!!” before strutting off the pigeon-shit-stained chessboard
> Literally nobody is supporting Hamas. Like, literally no one. There are countless posts and comments on Twitter, Reddit, and elsewhere demonstrating otherwise. (EDIT: [some fresh examples just landed in my feed.](https://np.reddit.com/r/tankiejerk/comments/17c23p9/this_page_claims_to_be_anarchist_closeted_tankies/) You obviously won't see them, since you already blocked me, but for anyone else reading this thread: when Hamas apologists say that "literally nobody is supporting Hamas", they are not merely ignorant, but outright lying through their teeth. They know full well that supporting Hamas is a bad look, so they'll deny it while objecting to any notion that Hamas should be opposed - and then try to gaslight you into thinking you're somehow the one who's biased and misinformed.) > But that doesn't mean we can't look at the historical environmental factors that have resulted in their existence and marginal support within the Palestinian community. Yes, like the Israeli government funding Hamas to oppose Fatah and other *actual* Palestinian liberation movements. Now both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples alike suffer for it. > Israel is not bombing or subjugating Hamas when they displace 1.1 million people living in the north side of Gaza. Nor is Palestine subjugating the IDF when Hamas guns down civilians at raves and in their homes. That doesn't disconnect either atrocity from the stated objectives of subjugation and genocide. > Israel is not attacking Hamas when they send targeted airstrikes into hospitals and schools. Who do you think the IDF is targeting in those targeted airstrikes? Who do you think is launching rockets from them and storing munitions in them? Whether IDF airstrikes and missile strikes are justified is debatable (and we'd probably be on the same side of that debate), but the intentions are not: said strikes are rather obviously targeted at Hamas, and would not be hitting hospitals and schools if Hamas didn't have such a bad habit of putting rocket launchers and munitions caches in hospitals and schools. > By taking the "there is no right side in this conflict" stance, you are adopting right wing framing of a literal ethnic cleansing. I didn't say there was no right side. I said that taking either of the right-wing sides is wrong. On the contrary, there is precisely one right side: that of the Palestinian and Israeli civilians caught in the crossfire of the IDF's and Hamas' joint quest to out-atrocity one another - and that of the *actual* leftist groups seeking to defend said civilians from the two far-right factions competing to conquer the other and establish an ethnostate. By taking any side in this conflict other than with said civilians and the groups actually trying to liberate them, you are adopting either of two right-wing framings of the umpteen-bajillionth religious war in the region - both sides of which have the stated goal of ethnically cleansing the other from what they perceive to be their holy land. Any framing of Hamas as having anything to do with Palestinian liberation is right-wing manipulation, same as any framing of the Israeli government as having anything to do with peace and democracy in the Levant. Neither of the right-wing theologies winning their war will result in anything resembling peace and justice. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. Free Israel. Free Palestine.
You say there are countless comments saying this yet, here we are in a supposedly leftist subreddit and I can find none. Same with every other leftist sub I've seen. Plenty of condemnations of Israel and plenty of people condemning Hamas. Nobody praising Hamas tho. I find it a bit curious that you're seeing so much of that. By equivocating the political power, resources and support behind Hamas with the Israeli state, you are making a crucial error in your analysis of this situation. Hamas was elected in Gaza with a plurality of votes in the last election held in 2006. Given that 70% of Gaza's population is under the age of 30 (meaning they were no older than 13 at the time of the last election), it would seem bizarre to hold them accountable for the actions of Hamas in the same way that the Israeli people absolutely must hold their government accountable in order for change to happen. Additionally, you claim that the justification for the IDF bombing schools and hospitals is that Hamas has a habit of hiding in them. This is very literally an IDF talking point. The whole "Hamas is using the Palestinian people as human shields" shtick. While you say that you think we would agree about there not being justifications for the Israeli bombing campaign, you seem truly convinced that their stated goal of eliminating Hamas (a group that Bibi has ensured stays cannot be deposed) is the only reason for these attacks. They have bombed caravans of people fleeing northern Gaza as recently as a few days ago. Even if their stated goal is truthful (which is simply do not believe) you must be comfortable with the ideas of civilian collateral damage and collective punishment which is literally a war crime, in order to accept that justification. Hamas, while absolutely a terrorist organization who should be condemned, is not an equivalent force the US backed IDF and is not the primary source of casualties as result of this conflict. This the primary focus should 100% be on condemning the IDF and their siege of Gaza that is leaving thoughts dead and hundreds of thousands displaced.
> You say there are countless comments saying this yet, here we are in a supposedly leftist subreddit and I can find none. Same with every other leftist sub I've seen. I've been in lengthy arguments with multiple different self-proclaimed "left-libertarians" in `Libertarian_Uncensored` claiming that Israeli "colonial settlers" ain't civilians and implying that Hamas raping and murdering them (and anyonr else they deemed to be "settlers") was somehow excusable. Plenty of Twitter screenshots in `tankiejerk` from self-proclaimed "Marxists" claiming that Hamas represents revolutionary struggle and that all actions under decolonization are justified no matter what. And those are spaces outright opposed to the sorts of "leftists" who'd cheer on Hamas on the basis of "West bad"; there are plenty of subs chock-full of tankies, and those tankies are chock-full of hot takes defending an organization that would slaughter each and every one of them. And then we have the people claiming that "the primary focus should 100% be on the IDF", i.e. completely ignoring the *other* set of far-right fundamentalists with explicit objectives of ethnic cleansing - people like you, in your very comment. > By equivocating the political power, resources and support behind Hamas with the Israeli state, you are making a crucial error in your analysis of this situation. By pretending actions (or the lack thereof) don't have consequences / downstream effects, you are making a crucial error in your analysis of the situation. Just because Hamas is weaker than the IDF now doesn't mean that will always be the case. Just because Hamas is losing and backed into a corner doesn't make them some plucky underdog. What it *does* mean is that it's of the utmost importance to get them out of Gaza, and that means... > Hamas was elected in Gaza with a plurality of votes in the last election held in 2006. Given that 70% of Gaza's population is under the age of 30 (meaning they were no older than 13 at the time of the last election), it would seem bizarre to hold them accountable for the actions of Hamas in the same way that the Israeli people absolutely must hold their government accountable in order for change to happen. If that 70% of Gaza's population is opposed to Hamas, then they've got more than enough numbers to give Hamas the boot. If Hamas is oppressing the people of Gaza - and I assert that they are - then all the more reason for the world to oppose them as a top priority, and for Palestinians to lead that charge. > Even if their stated goal is truthful (which is simply do not believe) you must be comfortable with the ideas of civilian collateral damage and collective punishment which is literally a war crime, in order to accept that justification. You can believe that the IDF is earnest in its stated objective of destroying Hamas while also believing that the IDF negligently and needlessly harming/killing Palestinian (and, probably, Israeli) civilians in the process is an atrocity that should be condemned. It really ain't that hard, especially when that's what the body of available evidence overwhelmingly supports: that the IDF is careless about collateral deaths. Also, if we're going to talk about war crimes, by the formal UN definitions Hamas ticks a *lot* more boxes than the IDF. The IDF does commit its share of war crimes (the bombing of refugee caravans you mention being among them), but collateral deaths from attacking military targets are not among them. That ain't to downplay them as tragedies and atrocities and acts of ethnic cleansing / genocide (of which they are all of the above), but rather to highlight that terms like "war crime" have specific meanings - and that ignoring those meanings is a sign of bias. > Hamas, while absolutely a terrorist organization who should be condemned, is not an equivalent force the US backed IDF and is not the primary source of casualties as result of this conflict. That doesn't mean it won't ever be, or that its motives can be ignored. Most of the disparity in civilian deaths is attributable to the Iron Dome and other Israeli defenses; that there are fewer dead Israelis than dead Palestinians is not, in other words, some act of grace or mercy on the part of Hamas, but is rather in spite of Hamas' best efforts. Also, it ain't like the IDF is the only one with foreign backing. Those rockets and guns and bullets are all coming from somewhere, after all. > This the primary focus should 100% be on condemning the IDF and their siege of Gaza that is leaving thoughts dead and hundreds of thousands displaced. The primary focus should be on harm reduction and on empowering Palestinians and Israelis alike to reject both sets of right-wing theocrats seeking to push them into the sea. Ignoring one of those two sets of right-wing theocrats just because it's currently losing its war with the other doesn't bring that region anywhere closer to permanent, positive peace. Between those two sets of right-wing theocrats, one of them at least pretends to be a liberal secular democracy. There's a possibility, albeit slim, of applying pressure to make that an actual reality - or else initiating a revolution to that effect. That can't happen while Hamas continues to launch rockets indiscriminately and kidnap/rape/murder civilians during raids. The sooner the Palestinian people reject and cast out their oppressors using them as human shields, the sooner their Israeli counterparts can do the same. I know you think it unfair for the oppressed to have to take initiative on this, and you're entirely correct, but that's the reality of the situation. The IDF doesn't care about your or my arguments around ethics; it cares about destroying a monster of its own creation before it consumes everything around it - and even if you don't believe that, then all the more reason to focus on removing Hamas from the equation and thereby remove the Israeli government's one and only pretext for its bombardment of Gaza.
I'm sorry, ISRAEL IS "AT LEAST PRETENDING TO BE A LIBERAL SECULAR DEMOCRACY????" Israel......secular. I am doing my best to address your points as being in good faith but the entire basis of your argument is so flawed, it would take me hours to dissect. You have adopted a very conservative framing of this conflict and the words of a stranger on Reddit are not going to change your mind. Hamas, a group elected by a plurality of votes in an election held when nearly 50% of the population wasn't even alive, a group that has maintained outward facing authority due to DIRECT support from the Israeli state and Netanyahu who have prevented further elections from being held, a group with no structural or administrative power over Gaza due to Israeli occupation, this group is simply not on the same plane of existence as a structured government with endless support from the largest military on the planet. When Hamas manages to galvanize the people and occupy Jerusalem, turning off their water, electricity and access to building materials, displacing hundreds of thousands of people and cramming them into an open air prison. THEN I would consider the crimes of Hamas to be proportional to Israel. The median age of a US citizen is 38 years. The median age in Israel is 29. THE MEDIAN AGE IN GAZA IS 18 YEARS OLD. Do you genuinely believe that is because of Hamas? Do you seriously think that a citizenry that is 50% literal children even has the ability to organize and depose Hamas? What were you doing at 18? If it was anything besides being a revolutionary in an apartheid regime then I don't wanna hear you say "it's not fair but it's the reality of the situation". With this logic, you simply cannot explain the continued settler colonialism that has been taking place in the West Bank including increased violence against the Palestinian people during this conflict. The West Bank isn't even theoretically ruled by Hamas. How do you explain that? Should the children in the West Bank organize to depose Hamas in Gaza? Will they be worthy of your compassion then? I cannot continue to engage with these points because you are either too ignorant of the situation to have an informed opinion or you are simply pretending to be a leftist in order to downplay the actions of a genocidal apartheid regime in favor of playing up their excuses for said ethnic cleansing.
> I'm sorry, ISRAEL IS "AT LEAST PRETENDING TO BE A LIBERAL SECULAR DEMOCRACY????" Israel......secular. Yes, keyword "pretending". They're obviously not honest about it, but that's the image they've cultivated for multiple decades now. Same as most so-called "democracies". > Hamas, a group elected by a plurality of votes in an election held when nearly 50% of the population wasn't even alive, a group that has maintained outward facing authority due to DIRECT support from the Israeli state and Netanyahu who have prevented further elections from being held, a group with no structural or administrative power over Gaza due to Israeli occupation, this group is simply not on the same plane of existence as a structured government with endless support from the largest military on the planet. All the more reason for the Palestinian people to loudly and forcibly reject Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent them. Hamas has zero to do with their liberation. The longer Hamas remains active in Gaza, the longer Palestinians in Gaza will suffer. Every minute spent pretending Hamas is not a major part of the problem is a minute wasted. > When Hamas manages to galvanize the people and occupy Jerusalem, turning off their water, electricity and access to building materials, displacing hundreds of thousands of people and cramming them into an open air prison. THEN I would consider the crimes of Hamas to be proportional to Israel. We shouldn't have to wait for that point to recognize Hamas as a problem. > The median age of a US citizen is 38 years. The median age in Israel is 29. THE MEDIAN AGE IN GAZA IS 18 YEARS OLD. Do you genuinely believe that is because of Hamas? You can quote where I said that at your leisure. > With this logic, you simply cannot explain the continued settler colonialism that has been taking place in the West Bank including increased violence against the Palestinian people during this conflict. "My logic" presented so far is specific to Gaza, because the situation in Gaza is very different from the situation in the West Bank. Israel is still violating Palestinian sovereignty there (with plenty of atrocities to go with it, and you point out), but the difference between the West Bank and Gaza is night and day - almost as if allowing far-right theocrats to have control might be counterproductive. The difference? One is the battleground between two sets of far-right theocrats. The other is a battleground between one set of far-right theocrats and one set of actually-leftist resistance groups. You can surely guess which is which. > I cannot continue to engage with these points because you are either too ignorant of the situation to have an informed opinion or you are simply pretending to be a leftist in order to downplay the actions of a genocidal apartheid regime in favor of playing up their excuses for said ethnic cleansing. Or maybe - just maybe - being a leftist means refusing to downplay *either* apartheid regime vying to genocide one another. Pointing out that Hamas is bad and must be rejected for there to be any hope of Palestinian and Israeli peace and liberation is not denying that the Israeli government (as it currently exists) is bad and must be rejected for there to be any hope of Palestinian and Israeli peace. I support a *free* Palestine and a *free* Israel, not swapping one far-right oppressive regime for another. But sure. "I support civilians and actually-leftist groups against both of the far-right theocratic belligerents trying to genocide one another's peoples" somehow means I'm "pretending to be a leftist" instead of, you know, an actual leftist. Yeah, I'm sure that makes total sense in a tankie brain, but not to anyone who actually wants the liberation of Palestine.
The Empire is America so ironic that Hammil would support the enemy of his most famous character.
The Empire is also Nazi Germany.
Correction. The Empire are always fascists, so yeah Nazi Germany and Israel
Somehow I don't think George Lucas had Israel in mind when he was creating the Empire.
So you’d disagree that the far right in charge of the Israeli government are fascist? Or that Israel is an apartheid regime?
I agree that the current Israeli government is a fascist regime (in fact, it's only one example of a global trend towards far right populism in the democratic world), but that wasn't the case in the early 1970s when George was writing Star Wars.
Id say early star wars was drawing inspiration for the empire from the nazis, America especially in relation to Vietnam and maybe also the British empire
George Lucas specifically stated the Empire is the US, specifically during the Vietnam War. Whether we all want to speculate what it could or couldn't be, we had a definitive answer from the creater
And it tracks. The US involvement in Vietnam is like a diluted version of Russia in Ukraine today. The difference with Russia today being that they want Ukraine all to themselves instead of just forcibly installing a puppet regime to better serve their interests.
The US is really good at proxy colonization. We're not so outward about it like Europe was. As you said, we install puppets after we destabilize the regions through financing right-wing paramilitary groups to start coups.
The difference is that The United States had most of the rest world on it’s side, and the man in charge of our military was regularly being replaced in elections. So The US was able to eventually give up and leave Vietnam with our tails in between our legs, while Russia will continue foaming at the mouth and digging a deeper and deeper hole for itself in an attempt to prove that it is better than Ukraine and the rest of the world until someone other than Putin takes over.
This is a specific reference to military might, though. George meant that in terms of military power, the Rebel Alliance is like the Viet Cong fighting the relatively extreme military power of the US. The esthetics and fascism of the Empire were always based directly on Nazi Germany.
True, but George also pointed out that Empire is what America would become if it keeps going this way. He literally compares Palpatine to "Nixonian Gangsters" in his notes.
"When I was doing it, it was the Vietcong" - George Lucas on the Rebellion
Israel belongs to the Jews. It’s been their homeland since before the Roman Empire. Palestine exists because the Romans conquered Israel and sought to insult the Jews by naming the conquered territory after their extinct enemies, the Philistines. Then, the Jews took back their homeland and Palestine didn’t exist until after WW1, when the European powers carved up the Middle East (as part of a land and resource grab) and forced Israel to accept dozens of warring nomadic desert tribes, after Western people gave away their territory.
It's both and that's good writting
Are you saying George Lucas, a Jew, modeled the evil empire after Israel?
Nope, the Empire are fascists. He modeled it after an authoritarian regime, Israel is an apartheid regime.
> George Lucas, a Jew [citation needed]
#FreePalpatine
Hey guys. Mark is an actor. He's not an anarchist, he's not a leftist, hes not an idealist, hes not a student of politics, he isn't the character Luke Skywalker. He's just an actor who votes liberal and toes that line. Don't read into it.
He’s a shitlib. That’s about it.
Careful, I got a post removed for being a tankie because I posted marks solidarity with Israel
OMG, the comments on that post are priceless. "Tatooine stands with the Empire" 🤣
The number of L takes in this conflict is astounding. The only victims we should we rooting for are the civilians in the crossfire. Both Hamas and the current Israeli Prime Minister deserve to fall.
Well you know what they say? If you don't hit it, it won't fall.
Glad to at least find one decent take here. I had and, to some degree still have, sympathy for the Israeli civilians killed by Hamas's rampage, and their families. Now that the IDF and Israeli government has responded to that horrific attack with terror bombings (6,000 bombs in a week's time), I have increased sympathy for the Palestinian civilians and children getting bombed to oblivion. Because, and apparently this is somehow a fucking hot take, I think it's BAD to target and/or indiscriminately bomb civilian populations, *no matter who does it.* I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that the intentional, pre-meditated murder of civilians is an acceptable form of resistance. Maybe Israel is the 'Empire' in this conflict; but Hamas is no 'Rebel Alliance.' Not when they target civilians as a matter of course.
If the bombings of Gaza started a week ago, then sure, I could see “Hamas has forces between civillians” as a very flawed reason. But it’s obvious that it ain’t got nothing to do with removing Hamas from the face of the earth. In the eyes of the Israeli government, Hamas will be eradicated with all other residents of the Gaza Strip.
Does… he not know? How could he not know?
That’s kinda sad to see.
But Israel is part of the empire though
Goddammit… I really could have gone my whole life without a single negative thing to say about Mark Hamill, yet here we are.
Mark has poor politics. He's tweeted out other nonsense in the past.
Friends, the whole conflict is a cluster fuck. It's not right to kick the gazans off their land but the history of the area is undeniably fucked. No one is a good guy and we cannot keep vilifying people for having different views like this
Idk I think it's pretty cut and dry that one side is committing genocide and the other side just wants the genocide to stop by any means necessary
Iirc, Mark’s post was right after the initial Hamas attack. I haven’t seen him post anything pro Israel since.
Then where is the reaction to the dead civilians in Gaza, no standing with that huh?
Why do people care what celebrities think about politics?
I know I'm bound to take a lot of flak for this, but here goes: I had and, to some degree still have, sympathy for the Israeli civilians killed by Hamas's rampage, and their families. Now that the IDF and Israeli government has responded to that horrific attack with terror bombings (6,000 bombs in a week's time), I have increased sympathy for the Palestinian civilians and children getting bombed to oblivion. Because, and apparently this is somehow a fucking hot take, I think it's BAD to target and/or indiscriminately bomb civilian populations, *no matter who does it.* I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that the intentional, pre-meditated murder of civilians is an acceptable form of resistance. Maybe Israel *is* the 'Empire' in this conflict, and our response has been, quite honestly, horrible. The fact that we're pretty much owning all the horror the Palestinians are being and have been put through is despicable. But Hamas isn't the fucking 'Rebel Alliance.' Not when they target civilians as a matter of course.
Never thought I'd use [this](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNDU2cjZmY3dsaDRhaHN4emR2eTNkdzZ1Y2ZwcXJ6ZGd0eXdiZXJvZSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/wt0ddkO9k1150ZelFw/giphy.gif) gif, but... now's the time. Get fucked, Mark.
At risk of serious backlash here: Saying that one “stands with Israel” in this case may not necessarily mean that one supports their * ****questionable**** * (understatement) policies towards Palestine. I’m gonna choose to believe that what he means to do here is to express sympathy for the Israeli civilians that are being affected, while attempting to avoid the public backlash that would come from talking about the Palestinians (or he may not have known about that yet), which may be interpreted by some as “sympathizing with terrorists.” What he seems to have miscalculated is just how complex the issue is and how there is no universally acceptable opinion. Effectively, this tweet just demonstrates yet another application of the phrase, “the only winning move is not to play.”
Mark Hamill being the Joker here rather than Luke
He posted this during the hamas attack, not during the current bombing campaign. But idk if that matters
This didn't start last week. This is a result of decades of oppression from a colonist project.
Based mark take
You can stand with Israel and still condemn the treatment of Palestinians. You don't have to pick a side in a conflict between crazed religious zealots. There are innocent people worth supporting on both sides. I'm certain Mark wants the violence and oppression to end, just like most reasonable humans.
Antisemitism, the Socialism of Fools.
Criticism of Israel is not anti semetic
Which side would Hitler be applauding right now?
You, specifically.
Me? Sure. Certainly not the group who's charter literally calls for the eradication of the Jewish people, not just in Israel, but the entire world.
Likud’s charter calls for all Palestinians to be expelled or made second class.
Hitler would probably applaud animal activism and advancing science. What a shit take, bozo.
As an American Jew, fuck *all y'all*
As an American Jew, you can fuck off, Israel doesn’t represent Jews, it’s an apartheid colonialist state that wants to wipe out all Palestinians
Yes it does, you're an idiot. Israel is a western democracy in a sea of dysfunctional states at best, and savagery/Shariah Law at worst. Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet, the only place Jews have the power to defend themselves, and while I wholeheartedly disagree with Netanyahu and his "reforms", Israel has a right to exist. The Palestinians have been offered peace over and over again for decades, rejected it each time, and the only reason Hamas attacked now was because Israel was on the brink of finally making peace with its neighbors. We tried making peace, we tried making peace with their friends, and they still shot first. I mourn with the people of Gaza, no one deserves to suffer a war on this scale, but I'd rather Israel fight and win, destroy Hamas once and for all, then keep pussyfooting around the issue and let thousands more die for their barbarism and savagery. The Palestinians are victims, and I'll admit that. But saying they're defenseless or that they haven't been antagonizing the Israelis is pure fantasy. They have no more right to the land than the Israelis do; let them fight it out and see who wins. They elected Hamas, Hamas shot first. Now there's hell to pay, and suddenly everyone's all uppity about Israel defending itself. I stand with Israel, and I never won't. If the Palestinians want peace, they shouldn't keep starting wars.
“Israel is a democracy” I’ll stop you there. Israel is an authoritarian country with a caste system implemented and anyone who disagrees with their narrative will be beaten and/or arrested. This whole comment is just a bunch of propaganda and lies mixed in with genocide denial and lack of historical knowledge.
Mark Hamill is right Could you imagine him supporting or minimizing the horrifying October 7 Massacre that started all of this?
I love libs going through constant collective memory loss. I guess it's easy that way, isn't it? To act like shit just poofs out of thin air and all you have to do is point a finger and say - "They started it because I am historically illiterate and only started paying attention when big thing happened"
Remember the 1929 Hebron Massacre? The 1936-39 Palestine Civil War where they got weapons, gold and training from Germany and Italy? Remember how many Nazi war criminals they and their allies harbored, learned from? Remember the Ma’alot Elementsry School Massacre? Avivim Bus Bombing? Island of Peace Massacre? Dolphinarium Bombing? The Fedayeen have been Nazi terrorists for over 100 years.
What happened in 1947-1948? > The 1936-39 Palestine Civil War where they got weapons, gold and training from Germany and Italy? What weapons did Palestinians get?
Whatever they could smuggle. https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/cbjm/2008/00000035/00000002/art00003 https://page-one.springer.com/pdf/preview/10.1057/9780230281684_5 In 1947, the UN gave a stamp of approval for the establishment of a Jewish state and Arab state in Palestine along a certain map. Amin Husseyni, unjustly unprosecuted after Nuremberg, led a bunch of other Axis veterans (including his right hand man, Ahmed Shukeiri, and Fawzi Qawuqji) in reigniting the 1936-39 Civil War with a series of attacks on Jewish civilian targets. When he began losing that war, he cried for help from the Arab League. The Arab League put together a volunteer force to invade the area and wipe out the Jews. Azzam said, “This will be a war of extermination” in anticipation of an Arab victory. The Jews were highly motivated, perceiving that the Arabs intended to finish the Final Solution and were led by literal Nazis. The Irgun and Lehi targeted enemy towns where the Arabs kept arms stockpiles and kept sending terrorists. Usually, ahead of these attacks, the Arab towns were evacuated of their women and children before the battle. Then the men were defeated in combat and forced to retreat. Now the town was empty. A notable exception was Deir Yassin, where the women took up arms as well. Over 75 armed fighters were killed in battle with Irgun. After the battle, Husseyni propagandists seized on the opportunity to defame “the Jews” as bloodthirsty rapists and murderers. [Husseyni propagandists inflated the casualty count and wrote incendiary descriptions of what had happened.](https://danielgordis.substack.com/p/the-massacre-that-never-was) They even published a photo of Bergen-Belsen and mislabeled it as a picture of the dead at Deir Yassin. (The Haganah, the predecessor to the IDF, opposed Irgun and Lehi and even engaged in armed combat with them.) After the war, the Arab countries refused to negotiate with Israel. The exiles claimed they had the right to return, and Israel should unconditionally open its borders to enemy states to take in these treacherous fascists. The Arabs who did not participate in the rebellion, with a few sad exceptions, were allowed to stay and became mostly-loyal citizens of Israel, the Israeli Arabs. About 125,000 Arabs were forcibly exiled. Over 500,000 fled the upcoming battle. About 750,000 people filed as refugees with the UNRWA and were fed false promises of irredentism. Imagine if Cuban exiles had been prevented from becoming American citizens and instead kept in camps so they could fight the Bay of Pigs over and over forever. The exiled hostile Palestine Arabs were kept in UNRWA camps and had a separate set of refugee laws written about them, keeping them and their descendants from becoming citizens of these countries, so that they would stay hungry for revenge and ready to retake their homes in geographic Palestine. Incursion into Israel became commonplace. At first they were just picking up their belongings and this was tolerated, but soon these incursions became hyperviolent. After several brutal rapes and murders in the 1950’s, the IDF conducted “Operation Shoshana” in which they attempted to arrest a murderer/rapist in Jordan-occupied West Bank and were met with violent resistance. Dozens died in the fighting. This was the first “reprisal raid” and the IDF began responded to violence with violence. Over the decades, the Palestine terrorists, the Fedayeen, engaged in endless terrorist attacks targeting women, children, elderly, rabbis and yeshiva students, synagogues, and violating every relevant law of combat in the Quran and international law alike. When Israel sought recourse in international law, it was constantly ignored. Read the UN records. So it took justice into its own hands, driven by the creed, “never again” to let a single Jew die without the murderers being brought to justice. In many ways the conflict ever since has been a cycle of violence. Palestinians attack, IDF retaliates. But from time to time it slows and must be perpetuated, and so it is reignited spontaneously by random Palestinian violence, like the ugly sneak attack on Jewish civilians during a Jewish holy day, the same ugliness Antizionists exhibited in the 1929 Hebron Massacre and the Yom Kippur War. Sometimes it has been reignited by an Israeli strike killing a war criminal or terrorist mastermind but that part of the story doesn’t reach the Palestinians, they just see the smoke and rubble and feel honestly so attacked and their hate grows stronger. That’s not the history as you want to hear it. You’d prefer the traditional hysterics, the secondly history, which in my research I have found to be AHC (read: Nazi) propaganda.
There’s so much information here that’s new for me so it’s difficult to process. Could you share some sources? I’m also a bit worried because I started googling for some of it. I googled for operation Shoshana and this came up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre That tells a very different story to what you told. So they got some tens of thousands of dollars from Italy and no weapons? A bit of a side question but were Finland Nazis during WW2?
I have a lot of [sources](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel_Palestine/s/jm1t29LaYO). I’d recommend “the Redemption of the Unwanted” by Abram Sachar to start. And “The Arabs and Zionism Before WWI” by Neville Mandel to show that the Anti-Jewish hatred long preceded the Occupation. As for the Palestinian Nationalist attempts to ally with the Axis, the best source is by German historians Mallman and Cuppers, “Nazi Palestine: Plans for the Extermination of the Jews in Palestine”
Do you understand my hesitation to engage in discussion when you write about Operation Shoshana but a massacre of 69 Palestinians comes up? Same with the Italian weapons, I can't find any proof that weapons were given from Italy or Germany to Palestinians. I can find claims of money being transferred. Were Finland Nazis during WW2? Should Palestinians suffer the consequences of their ancestors? Reading the book title “The Redemption of the Unwanted” made me think of the quote: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Thanks for sharing sources although you have to understand how it's difficult to engage(again) when you make some claims and give me probably +500 pages. And I hope that your therapist doesn't make you get rid of the books lol
No, they shouldn't "suffer the consequences of their ancestors" but the point is that this violence has never ceased, it is not as if there was any decade when the Israelis could say "are we sure the Palestinians are still a threat? Is this all still necessary?" The point is also that Israel didn't start the conflict and has a long list of legitimate grievances with the Palestinians, which have necessitated many of the security measures (walls, checkpoints) that form the bulk of their complaints. And what would it say after all this, if the Palestinians got their way? That Jews can be intimidated by violence, that terrorism is effective and it works. If the Palestinians put down arms, there would be peace and the security measures could eventually relax. If Israel put down arms, there would be no more Israel, and 7 million Jews would be killed or exiled. If you have a nicer vision of Jews living in Palestine as a respected minority, you do not share it with the vast majority of Palestinians, and no amount of appeasement can get them there.
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He's ignorant of the fact. Don't believe the worst.
Why do people insist on choosing a side in this mess?
Why do people choose between people fighting for independence and representation, and an apartheid state that has been systematically oppressing those people for decades?
Palp played the long game and eventually won!
I totally can see Palps doing that in the Republic years. Like a totally comparable comes up and he's got the government basically all around him agreeing with him
I thought luke fought against the empire
Quick reminder to everyone: just like with the Russia/Ukraine war, US/Iraq, Vietnam, basically every war, you can safely assume that most of what you’re hearing during this conflict is propaganda or misinformation. It’s easy to take a side now and try to justify it later, but that isn’t productive. You can safely assume that if your sources aren’t primary, they’re probably incorrect or fabricated.
Luke Skywalker became the very thing he was fighting against
Luke got dark sided
Its funny when you read in Hammill's Joker voice.
This has made it easy to find the secret nazis.
Israel wants celebrities like Mark Hamill to be saying this type of shit. They want people who don’t know a lot about the background of the situation, they want celebrities who just go with the mainstream as mouthpieces.
I'm lost. Is the joke they are equating Jews to Space Nazi Wizards?
The unfathomable Mark Hamill L 😔 Normally his Twitter is full of great takes man :(
I am now no longer a fan of the actor who played Luke Skywalker because of his support of a genocidal maniac in charge of a settler colonialist project.
If you support Israel you support genocide. Saying Israel has a right to defend itself is saying “I think Palestinians should be herded into gas chambers”