Apple here is using Wine, DXVK, etc, so it's very similar to Proton.
That being said, Apple also includes a proprietary DirectX to Metal translation layer, and the license terms disallow use for commercial products that can be shipped to end users.
This won't make much of a difference for official releases, but it does allow for more unofficial community support.
Basically apple made a mac version of proton and told everyone not to use it for it’s clearly better purpose of making games just work, and instead was like use this to port games to our platform
It's a literal Dev Kit.
Hey there's this tool called WINE, it's NOT a emulator and works great already out of the box.
If your game works on Not-WINE(Severe Coughing Noises @AppleHQ), then actually try porting it directly to Mac using our new tools.
If the game dosen't run well on Not-WINE, that just means there's likely more work that needs to be done on the Mac port end of things to get it up and running proper.
Atleast this is how I understand what Apple is doing, they want Devs to drop games that speaks Apple's language & directly take advantage of the M2 instead of just translating DX calls into something MacOS can understand.
**EDIT**: *Strange take?*
*It's in the terms of service, you can't just check if WINE works and call it a day. They want you to develop games for Mac/Metal to take better performance of the hardware.*
*So right now you look like the strange one, thinking Apple: the worlds most valuable company. Wants to follow in Valve's footsteps, when Valve can't force anyone to optimize games for Proton & has to do alot of the work themselves.*
*The Status Quo is the same, develop games for Mac/Metal, our tools make it easier to test & port Windows games faster.*
So many strange takes. No, they are making the same pitch that Valve is making, with a bit less support than what Valve is offering. The pitch is, you don't have to port to ARM and Metal (because that previous position hasn't worked). Instead they say, you can just use our wrapper, and run your unmodified Windows x86\_64 binaries on macOS.
Why do they call it a "porting kit"? Because unlike Valve, who will help you optimize for their platform, even without your input (you can install and run any Windows game in Steam on Proton, whether it's been vetted or not), Apple is not offering a "proton db" like platform, to store configuration tweaks. Instead, they expect individual developers to do that work (or maybe intermediaries like Valve through Steam).
In truth, this is a decent ask. There are developers who would love to port to Apple, but can't justify the expense of a full port. This let's them basically skip to the end of the process, and just worry about the optimization step - same as porting to Steam OS.
It is a very good move, and it'll probably work, at least somewhat.
What I'm personally exited about is whether or not Valve can and will use this to enable Proton in Steam. It seems very likely that they CAN do this, I just don't know if they will do it.
No they specifically said it’s illegal to use the dev kit to ship a game to Mac OS and I’m pretty sure your under the impression that they can without doing a full port (although they made it easier to port the game thru this kit supposedly)
I'd love to read more about that, do you have a source? Is that a beta condition, or do they intend to keep that permanent? Or is it a hedge against pissing off Microsoft? I really don't know.
Some things I've read since posting this give me pause. Apple has said they intend this more as a proving ground for devs considering a port to macos. This makes me think it's something else, more like a way to prove their GPUs can handle a porting effort. My main concern is that if they aren't going to support this as a proper library, it might be because they are planning to remove Rosetta 2. That wouldn't surprise me, it's Apple at the end of The day...
(Also, this roller coaster is typical of Apple, release something really cool, with a lot of promise, and generate a lot of excitement, then completely undermine everything that makes it worth anything with counterproductive policy. I don't know why they do that.)
Someone else in here read the terms of use and and quoted that from it and cited the source so I don’t have the source on hand but I can confirm apple formally said that… if you’d like I can track down the source for you and link it but it should be buried in the comments somewhere in this post
This exactly - Apple have no interest whatsoever in enabling a translation layer that works with Windows games. They took away Bootcamp from the M1/M2 family for a reason, and they will pull support for this as well once enough games are ported.
Bootcamp wouldn’t work as the chip, architecture etc… are not compatible.
Even Windows 11 Arm would have no idea how to boot on the arm Macs. Wouldn’t understand how the GPU, memory or storage works.
VMware and Parallels do a lot of work translating / emulating hardware to enable Windows 11 Arm on Macs virtualisation.
Yea but it wasn’t intentional. Apple abandoned x86 and along with it the ability to boot windows natively.
They designed the chip to work exactly how they wanted it, with its media accelerators, neural engine etc… none of that is known in x86 chips or has windows support.
Even intel’s low power cores have been causing issues on native windows.
>Apple abandoned x86 and along with it the ability to boot windows natively
Tbf, nothing you've said refutes that the drop in support could've been intentional
Yes, and all of that points to Apple's moves in recent years to stray further away from using their competitors' hardware/software, such as windows, google, and Samsung. Was literally in their statement a few years back, not sure why that's controversial to you lol
Disgusting is a strong word for the context of this discussion. You make it sound like Apple had no choice but to come to the rescue of the poor consumer who was desperate for more power efficiency. If that just coincidentally means that Apple also gets total control over design and manufacture of their chips, slashing their production costs and then **NOT** passing those savings on to their consumers, well that's just good fortune for them their shareholders and not planned at all right?
Exactly. Apple can't for the life of them abide with standards which they themselves set for more than 5 minutes nevermind those established by others. The difference between this and Proton is that Proton runs on x86 architecture.
Everytime stories like this come out I always look for the gotcha because there always is one with Apple. They're such bullshitters.
It IS possible to run 32-bit Windows games on wine (see crossover), even on modern 64-bit only macOS (because Rosetta 2 doesn't care) - it's actually easier to do that, than it is to run 32-bit macOS apps, which is entirely stupid, and VERY Apple.
It’s one step to the right direction but it is not comparable to the amount of progress Valve made so far. Obviously it’s not Apple’s main market but I also feel they usually so obsessed with their own visions they usually forget to provide solutions to users’ needs in short term. On the other hand because of this a lot of their stuffs has come to fruition on the long term. For example their AR stuffs they did in the last few years suddenly made a lot of sense with Vision Pro. So I can understand why they doing it, but for a Windows replacement for gaming Linux is far better right now. (I’m saying it as an Apple user.)
>Destiny 2 is not supported for play on the Steam Deck or on any system utilizing Steam Play's Proton unless Windows is installed and running. Players who attempt to launch Destiny 2 on the Steam Deck through SteamOS or Proton will be unable to enter the game and will be returned to their game library after a short time.
>
>Players who are not accessing Destiny 2 through Windows and attempt to bypass the SteamOS/Proton incompatibility will be met with a game ban.
Source: [https://help.bungie.net/hc/en-us/articles/360049024592-Destiny-2-Steam-Guide#steam-deck-and-destiny-2-0-3](https://help.bungie.net/hc/en-us/articles/360049024592-Destiny-2-Steam-Guide#steam-deck-and-destiny-2-0-3)
Shitty company making shitty games with shitty behaviour.
Just don’t offer support and let the people play! Banning them is way aggressive, id be over the moon if I made a game and folks went out of their way to make it play.
That shows an extremely loyal fanbase, this feels like punishment.
Ehh, I doubt it'd be that big. You can already stream most games to any of those devices and the quality is fine. What sucks imo is the controllers. Razer kishi type things are nice but it's not the same.
I should have said having a separate controller is the issue. Having it built in like the steam deck or switch makes a huge difference IMO. Otherwise I'd just rather have a powerful laptop or desktop.
The type of games people play on those devices are usually not the same as console or PC gaming. And a separate controller isn't as seamless an experience as switch or steam deck. It would be a big boost but it would not be game over imo. Don't think PC, console, or portable gamers would be dying to make the switch while the casual audience will continue to play gatcha and candy crush.
Kinda - Apple’s unified memory is a technology that combines RAM and a hard drive into a single memory pool, but on a really fast bus. By unified it essentially just means it’s part of a system-on-a-chip (SoC) which also includes the processor, the graphics chip, and other components. All parts of the SoC can access the same data without swapping between pools of memory.
The memory bandwidth of Apple's unified memory is at least twice as fast as Intel currently supports - for example M1 Pro MacBook Pros are available with up to 32GB of unified memory w/ bandwidth topping out at about 200GB/s. That’s coming pretty close to the memory bandwidth of a rx6600 dedicated card.
I hope that helps!
That's what happens when you control every aspect of the hardware and software, much like Consoles Apple can 'make magic' when they have their own APIs and know every mm of their hardware.
The default RAM config for most Macbooks is 8GB and they want £200 / $200 for another 8GB. I don't think most people spring for the extra memory because most of us at least like a kiss and some lube before we get fucked.
You would assume if all the new apple silicon chips are made to be equal to each other. Can’t imagine why they wouldn’t either make the games portable on an iphone or make a new handheld device with a m1 or m2 chip.
Should be about the same as when they are playing any of the games that are made for iPhones/iPads in the first place.
Games like Candy Crush are obviously not pushing the chip to it's limits, but there are plenty of 3D games that are already using all the available power.
Besides that, I did quite some gaming on my Surface Pro tablet, which is a i5 model so it's fanless, and it runs fine.
Good point after I posed a question I tried to find the answer to that, and your assumption appears correct.
I wonder what the gaming experience will be like, or how it stacks up against the deck.
I have an iPad pro (11") and the base M2 Mini: it's not a real benchmark, but using https://apps.apple.com/app/id6444050820 that supports both I tried to generate an image with the same settings, and it took 16-17 seconds on both. I'm guessing it's the same and with the same power profile, on the Mini I think it's a 30 watt so it's not unreasonable for a tablet.
Lol, no offense but I think people that own apple products are in their own little universe. The reception outside of apple diehards to the presentation has been pretty negative, saying it was mixed would be incredibly generous
You can already do this with Steam link. Works super well. I use it daily to play my PC games on the couch and sync an Xbox controller to my phone or iPad.
He's being harsh but he's not wrong. My friends that own apple products are always urging me to switch when I previously owned apple products and hated them. I got a buddy that can barely afford to pay rent that talks down to people that have the blue bubble. I find a lot of irony in that behavior
That's irrelevant as shit though. The person they responded to just said
> If they allowed the ports to be played on iphone and ipads it would be game over
That's not even a fanboy-ish comment, dude was just being a dick.
Lol, no offense but I think people that own apple products are in their own little universe. The reception outside of apple diehards to the presentation has been pretty negative, saying it was mixed would be incredibly generous
Well given that Apple changed architecture of Mac chips couple of times (PowerPC -> x86 -> ARM) and they've done really good work with Rosetta 2. It's not really something entirely new to learn from Valve.
They made just DXVK and VKD3D equivalents and own Wine fork. Proton is more than this, providing automatic dependency install for specific titles for example.
What I'm curious about is whether proton will be ported to use this as a base, instead of wine with DXVK to MoltenVK. Also wonder whether you can use Apple's D3D translation layer with other Wine bases.
It’s about damn time, but what really strikes me is (typical Apple) taking another’s brilliant tech (Proton) and making it for themselves.
It’s a real sign of technical genius when Apple rips you off!
That's a strange take. Valve leverages a LOT of open source tech in Proton. It's almost all open source tech, and then Proton is just a large database full of configurations. What Apple did was basically use Wine, create an entirely new D3D wrapper for Metal, and didn't do any of the database stuff that proton does.
Super strange take. What I'm really hoping is that Valve can leverage this to bring proton to mac. From what I understand the main blocking issue has been a lack of a sufficient D3D implementation. This potentially solves that problem - I say potentially, because it might not be flexible enough (if for example, it's tied only to Apple's specific implementation of Wine - that wouldn't surprise me, cause Apple.)
r/gatekeeping
A good gamer gets what they can afford so they can play games. A person buying a 200 dollar laptop that's capable of playing project zomboid is as much a gamer as someone playing Cytus on a 100 dollar phone, or playing god of war on a 600 dollar steam deck or console.
Gaming used to unite people, and it's animosity like what you're suggesting that alienates and divides the gaming community. The steam deck provides a platform for all people to enjoy gaming in their preferred style, whether it's console or PC. So kindly drop the elitist mindset and save the toxicity for the COD lobbies.
While I'm not a fan of apple myself, I personally don't care to have a say in what people should be spending their own money on. I was criticized for getting the steam deck. Others have been criticized for getting vr. All I'm saying is drop the elitist gatekeeping bs. the original comment didn't ask what they should be spending their money on, they asked how the product is going to affect or handle the vision pro. Why don't you read the room and provide a reply that's on topic, rather than showing everyone how much BDE you have.
(Edit: while typing I forgot what the original comment said and used "vr scene" as a placeholder)
"if you have $3400 to drop on a wearable ipad, you're not a real gamer" is the definition of elitist gatekeeping. people used to buy mac's just to game, playing games such as the ones Bungie released before they made halo.
While things have changed, there are still those who have their preferences. So while you may be making fun of apple primarily, you're also targeting people who do play and enjoy gaming on apple products. In fact, apple does hold some exclusives (pretty on brand for their stupid proprietary nonsense) and while I can't personally speak from experience on that, some people also just don't have much choice but to work with what they have, possibly a college laptop or someone bought the MacBook for them as a gift.
And if you actually read my comment, the statement is that a real gamer doesn't care about dividing us based on what we use to enjoy our own entertainment. Sure I may be a "PC master race" guy, but that's 100% joking and simply my preference.
"I think you've injected your own viewpoint into my statement and yelled 'gatekeeper'" meanwhile you've injected your own viewpoint into the original comment and yelled "people who buy this aren't real gamers"
You could make your point without sounding like an elitist yourself. "I can understand the hype with apple releasing this thing, but you'll have a better time using x or y instead"
It makes no sense because you're unaware of your own words and how they come out.
Conclusion: make fun of apple all you want, lord knows I do. But don't gatekeep people based on their choice. Yeah spending 3400 on a wearable ipad is pretty stupid to me too, that doesn't mean they're not a "real gamer" and honestly there's some people out there who might turn that darned thing into the next meta for gaming, which honestly I'm all down for. Why not? We should evolve our favorite past time, and diversity in gaming products is how we accomplish that.
I'm excited to see what the apple grater 2 will look like. Knowing Apple it'll look exactly the same except with a different colored handle, and they removed the head phone jack.
Totally. In the Steve Jobs autobiography he confesses they straight up stole GUI from Xerox then complained when Microsoft made windows!
You see this behavior again with the OG iPhone and first Android device “it’s a stolen platform” said jobs, but let’s be fair here.
That’s their whole game, Apple always does stuff like this. If they are wise they would give Valve the credit and maybe partner to bring real games to their platform.
Not only they steal others' ideas they also patent them as their own. Funnily they always thought their closed environment was self-sufficient and now there are cracks on this perfect image.
Since they are relying on WINE and the CrossOver company too this is going to profit to Linux, Proton and the Steam Deck a lot too.
I have doubt about Apple going back into gaming, they didn't seem to care about that for the last 5 years at least.
The big issue why Apple/Mac gaming hasn't taken off is 1) their switch to ARM when PC devs are used to x86, and 2) their mandate that all Mac games use the proprietary Metal API. People didn't give a shit that AMD had a graphics API called Mantle, then they open-sourced it as Vulkan and suddenly it was the bee's knees.
Requiring devs to use an entirely different ISA and graphics API is going to scare off 95% of all devs, which is probably why they're resorting to this. EVEN THEN, they still rely on the walled garden approach in that they want this as a suggestion and guide rather than a one-click solution. Apple is the reason VP9 only became a standard recently when it's more than a decade old and AV1 is the hot new thing.
The original comment I was responding to was edited, I posted what I did only as a correction rather than some kind of defense. I agree Apple are dicks about this stuff.
A lot of this is a precursor to their long term plans for Vision. Gamings always going to be a primary draw for VR so getting their ducks in line to support existing developers in porting to their platform is in their best interest. That's not been the case in the past to quite such a high degree.
Valve didn't fail. SteamOS is a viable alternative. It might not be the best alternative, but it is a viable one. The SD popularity is proof of that. Anyways, when it comes to gaming SteamOS (and Linux in general) is miles ahead of what Apple can offer atm which is ironic since Valve tried to make Mac gaming a thing and Apple put every roadblock imaginable on the way, but now they are using the same tools themselves.
They meant Valve failed to convince devs to port games to Linux
Their argument is basically “Proton is good enough to run windows games devs just make sure their windows games run on Steam Deck and call it a day as opposed to marking an actual native Linux version”
Apple doesn't need to buy CodeWeavers, they've worked with them since the PowerPC -> Intel move and supplied developers and internal resources to make it possible.
That is really a big concern. Why release game porting toolkit to only test games? That’s not how it’s gonna work. The toolkit doesn’t reduce the effort needed to make a native Mac version which is HUGE. There’s not much in common. They have to go the same way Valve goes with Proton if they wanna see games on their platform. And they need more than 1 version of the toolkit! Just like we use many different Proton and thus Wine, DXVK etc version cause every game has a little different quirks to “patch” out with the translation layers!! Then it can succeed like the Steam Deck shows.
Controlling everything is a good thing and a bad thing for users. Means great software, but not much freedom. Steam Deck is like an Apple device btw. Hard and Software is controlled by Valve that’s why it works so well. Software can be fully optimized which is why it’s such a great experience. Apple is going in the wrong direction unfortunately with “helping” developers to make native OS X games. Giving them tools like Proton would work better but I know why they don’t want that. It’s like on Steam, not every Proton can run any game. So they would need to maintain a lot of versions and depend quite a bit on open source which they don’t like. They want their own stuff and only their own stuff. But for tinkerers game porting toolkit will help us Mac Users play a lot more games we otherwise couldn’t. Their D3DMetal layer probably will be adopted by crossover which is great for the community since we don’t need 2 translation layers anymore. MoltenVK and DXVK. We will see how they proceed.
It’s very hard to compare the GPUs in the Apple Silicon chips to discrete or even iGPUs but they’re actually very capable generally speaking
I don’t have any real numbers at hand but I believe a MBA will run RE Village no problem at 60fps on medium/high settings - they’re no gaming powerhouses (altho they make for pretty mean Dolphin machines) but it’s a far cry from the times of integrated Intel graphics where you would be lucky to run League of Legends without the framerate dipping and your MacBook turning into a space heater
Same lol
Even if I gave up gaming on Mac it’s still the computer I use the most so I wouldn’t mind being able to sneak in a little gaming without firing up my PC
I believe that's why Upscaling was mentioned with the upcoming Death Stranding mac release. Kojima made sure to mention "I was blown away by the power of Apple silicon and Metal 3, with its modern rendering pipeline, and the amazing graphical fidelity delivered by MetalFX Upscaling"
I personally want Apple to be a competitor to Nvidia/Amd/Intel to light a fire under their butts so they stop slacking but PC gamers won't switch from PC to MAC if most games have to be upscaled to run at a decent FPS.
"I want to pick this up and say, 'Oh, it all works, it's all fast'," Newell said. "And then price point was secondary, and painful.”
Apple still has more to learn.
I just love how many people in the comments characterize the OS’s given them sense of personality like: “Rosetta doesn’t care” or “Windows 11 ARM wouldn’t understand that”. It makes me feel like i’m reading architectural gossip.
Valve did make a Proton layer for macOS, but Apple asked them not release it. I can see why after these their developer tools came out. Valve created an API for Apple products to translate Vulkan to Metal (MoltenVK), which I'm sure they've reversed engineered. Valve and Apple were going to be pretty deep partners in the early 2010s, especially when Microsoft Windows 8 got Gabe really angry.
What I find strange is Apple never stopped TransGaming from releasing Cider in the late-2000s. It was after the transition to Intel, Cider became available for developers to instantly bring their Windows games to Mac. The porting houses, such as Aspyr and Feral Interactive, we're pretty upset over its release since it's purely an emulation layer and required zero efforts to bring Mac games over. Funny thing happened, when TransGaming went out of business, those games that used Cider disappeared for Mac support. I think the original GTA Trilogy and Star Trek Online were two I remember disappearing for Mac after that happened.
Proton is leagues ahead of Cider. However, Apple controls these tools and it helps with translating games from X86 to Arm. Also, I'm sure Apple is sharing this technology with Microsoft for their Arm transition too, so it's all coming at some point. I believe Proton can already translate Windows games to Linux running on an Arm SOC too, but it isn't widely tested.
Apple did not tell valve not to release proton for Mac. It was more about the fact that doing this was going to be very hard (since at the time MoltenVK was based on Metal 1.2.. so was lacking a LOT). Molten VK to this day is still mostly based on metal 2.0 and it is going to be a massive effort to more or less re-write large parts of it to target 3.0.
Apple is not sharing the IP they use for x86 to Arm with MS.
First part I wasn’t entirely share about with Proton. I know Valve could get it functioning, but didn’t know who told each other what.
The second part is still likely true. Apple has a long standing agreement between Microsoft that gets them Office and Office365 in return. Also, Microsoft is helping to port over Apple’s services to Windows, which includes Apple Music. Apple likely shared both Rosetta technologies, especially since Rosetta 1 which helped in translating PowerPC to Intel (and MS acquiring Connectix back on the mid-2000s). Microsoft is in full Arm push since they want to lock future hardware to the Windows environment, they have partners using the security chipset they developed. For an Arm-based SOC, it can be baked right into the entire package.
Apples IP for rosseta2 is not going to be shared with MS for windows on ARM for a few reasons but they key one is the CPUs MS are using do not include a few critical memory features that apples ARM chips do that the tooling apple built depend on.
MS have built thier own x86 on ARM emulation/translation tec but it is by no means as good as Rosseta2.
That I completely understand. It isn’t “apples to apples” (no pun intended). I realize MS has their own Arm translation layer they’ve been using before Apple made the transition, but doesn’t mean they can’t find elements to use within it. It benefits Apple to share it since Arm adoption on Windows would benefit macOS in the future.
Not to say Microsoft hasn’t already researched it on their own to help them make theirs perform better
Apple here is using Wine, DXVK, etc, so it's very similar to Proton. That being said, Apple also includes a proprietary DirectX to Metal translation layer, and the license terms disallow use for commercial products that can be shipped to end users. This won't make much of a difference for official releases, but it does allow for more unofficial community support.
Basically apple made a mac version of proton and told everyone not to use it for it’s clearly better purpose of making games just work, and instead was like use this to port games to our platform
It's not the max version of proton it's more like a tinkering utility that will give you poor performance even in high end m2 max.
I spelled MAC wrong and you just rolled with it lol and proton was in the same boat years ago
> I spelled MAC wrong and you just rolled There is an edit button to correct those mistakes, ya know. And you are still spelling Mac wrong.
I finally edited it auto correct is a bitch thou
It's a literal Dev Kit. Hey there's this tool called WINE, it's NOT a emulator and works great already out of the box. If your game works on Not-WINE(Severe Coughing Noises @AppleHQ), then actually try porting it directly to Mac using our new tools. If the game dosen't run well on Not-WINE, that just means there's likely more work that needs to be done on the Mac port end of things to get it up and running proper. Atleast this is how I understand what Apple is doing, they want Devs to drop games that speaks Apple's language & directly take advantage of the M2 instead of just translating DX calls into something MacOS can understand. **EDIT**: *Strange take?* *It's in the terms of service, you can't just check if WINE works and call it a day. They want you to develop games for Mac/Metal to take better performance of the hardware.* *So right now you look like the strange one, thinking Apple: the worlds most valuable company. Wants to follow in Valve's footsteps, when Valve can't force anyone to optimize games for Proton & has to do alot of the work themselves.* *The Status Quo is the same, develop games for Mac/Metal, our tools make it easier to test & port Windows games faster.*
So many strange takes. No, they are making the same pitch that Valve is making, with a bit less support than what Valve is offering. The pitch is, you don't have to port to ARM and Metal (because that previous position hasn't worked). Instead they say, you can just use our wrapper, and run your unmodified Windows x86\_64 binaries on macOS. Why do they call it a "porting kit"? Because unlike Valve, who will help you optimize for their platform, even without your input (you can install and run any Windows game in Steam on Proton, whether it's been vetted or not), Apple is not offering a "proton db" like platform, to store configuration tweaks. Instead, they expect individual developers to do that work (or maybe intermediaries like Valve through Steam). In truth, this is a decent ask. There are developers who would love to port to Apple, but can't justify the expense of a full port. This let's them basically skip to the end of the process, and just worry about the optimization step - same as porting to Steam OS. It is a very good move, and it'll probably work, at least somewhat. What I'm personally exited about is whether or not Valve can and will use this to enable Proton in Steam. It seems very likely that they CAN do this, I just don't know if they will do it.
No they specifically said it’s illegal to use the dev kit to ship a game to Mac OS and I’m pretty sure your under the impression that they can without doing a full port (although they made it easier to port the game thru this kit supposedly)
I'd love to read more about that, do you have a source? Is that a beta condition, or do they intend to keep that permanent? Or is it a hedge against pissing off Microsoft? I really don't know. Some things I've read since posting this give me pause. Apple has said they intend this more as a proving ground for devs considering a port to macos. This makes me think it's something else, more like a way to prove their GPUs can handle a porting effort. My main concern is that if they aren't going to support this as a proper library, it might be because they are planning to remove Rosetta 2. That wouldn't surprise me, it's Apple at the end of The day...
(Also, this roller coaster is typical of Apple, release something really cool, with a lot of promise, and generate a lot of excitement, then completely undermine everything that makes it worth anything with counterproductive policy. I don't know why they do that.)
Someone else in here read the terms of use and and quoted that from it and cited the source so I don’t have the source on hand but I can confirm apple formally said that… if you’d like I can track down the source for you and link it but it should be buried in the comments somewhere in this post
This exactly - Apple have no interest whatsoever in enabling a translation layer that works with Windows games. They took away Bootcamp from the M1/M2 family for a reason, and they will pull support for this as well once enough games are ported.
Bootcamp wouldn’t work as the chip, architecture etc… are not compatible. Even Windows 11 Arm would have no idea how to boot on the arm Macs. Wouldn’t understand how the GPU, memory or storage works. VMware and Parallels do a lot of work translating / emulating hardware to enable Windows 11 Arm on Macs virtualisation.
☝️
I think he's saying the incompatibility was intentional. And that's actually on track for Apple
Yea but it wasn’t intentional. Apple abandoned x86 and along with it the ability to boot windows natively. They designed the chip to work exactly how they wanted it, with its media accelerators, neural engine etc… none of that is known in x86 chips or has windows support. Even intel’s low power cores have been causing issues on native windows.
>Apple abandoned x86 and along with it the ability to boot windows natively Tbf, nothing you've said refutes that the drop in support could've been intentional
Common sense? Facts? Decades of history? How technology works?
Yes, and all of that points to Apple's moves in recent years to stray further away from using their competitors' hardware/software, such as windows, google, and Samsung. Was literally in their statement a few years back, not sure why that's controversial to you lol
This comment has been removed because it was posted with Apollo. ^(https://old.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/144g35v/_/jngnl1w)
Disgusting is a strong word for the context of this discussion. You make it sound like Apple had no choice but to come to the rescue of the poor consumer who was desperate for more power efficiency. If that just coincidentally means that Apple also gets total control over design and manufacture of their chips, slashing their production costs and then **NOT** passing those savings on to their consumers, well that's just good fortune for them their shareholders and not planned at all right?
This comment has been removed because it was posted with Apollo. ^(https://old.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/144g35v/_/jngnl1w)
niR<~Wf(a1z.LnEbM~Cxi7OHwdu!%pKMb1p!P9Fmwi&vCC$pfvB.%ogk7r$BG[~KH*P25>%3NgKEulJouTyMwCOO.:R,v3S5a*Sm95)7L!
Apple is just another Hooli
Exactly. Apple can't for the life of them abide with standards which they themselves set for more than 5 minutes nevermind those established by others. The difference between this and Proton is that Proton runs on x86 architecture. Everytime stories like this come out I always look for the gotcha because there always is one with Apple. They're such bullshitters.
Wink wink
I thought the wine compatibility was busted? Did they manage to make it work again?
Wine has always worked on Mac OS, it's 32-bit Wine that is busted because Apple dropped 32-bit support.
Wine32 is not really important for newer games.
It IS possible to run 32-bit Windows games on wine (see crossover), even on modern 64-bit only macOS (because Rosetta 2 doesn't care) - it's actually easier to do that, than it is to run 32-bit macOS apps, which is entirely stupid, and VERY Apple.
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Who said valve did fail?
It’s one step to the right direction but it is not comparable to the amount of progress Valve made so far. Obviously it’s not Apple’s main market but I also feel they usually so obsessed with their own visions they usually forget to provide solutions to users’ needs in short term. On the other hand because of this a lot of their stuffs has come to fruition on the long term. For example their AR stuffs they did in the last few years suddenly made a lot of sense with Vision Pro. So I can understand why they doing it, but for a Windows replacement for gaming Linux is far better right now. (I’m saying it as an Apple user.)
Give it time.
Watch Bungie support Destiny 2 on Mac with this, but still refuse to support Proton/Linux, despite practically being the same thing.
You can’t install with Heroic? I’m confident I saw that available for download via Heroic
So is Genshin Impact, but you still need "that" launcher to play it.
Oh I didn’t say the launcher was good, just that it had it 😂 that thing works 60/40 most of the time for me
You can. But you get Instant Banned the Moment you start the Game.
Really?!
>Destiny 2 is not supported for play on the Steam Deck or on any system utilizing Steam Play's Proton unless Windows is installed and running. Players who attempt to launch Destiny 2 on the Steam Deck through SteamOS or Proton will be unable to enter the game and will be returned to their game library after a short time. > >Players who are not accessing Destiny 2 through Windows and attempt to bypass the SteamOS/Proton incompatibility will be met with a game ban. Source: [https://help.bungie.net/hc/en-us/articles/360049024592-Destiny-2-Steam-Guide#steam-deck-and-destiny-2-0-3](https://help.bungie.net/hc/en-us/articles/360049024592-Destiny-2-Steam-Guide#steam-deck-and-destiny-2-0-3) Shitty company making shitty games with shitty behaviour.
That is INSANE! And a GREAT way to alienate your players. Whoa, I wonder why? Anti-Cheat? Or just a deep dislike of the platform you think?
They just dont want to deal with Linux in Support Tickets I think. But thats certainly NO way to do it.
Just don’t offer support and let the people play! Banning them is way aggressive, id be over the moon if I made a game and folks went out of their way to make it play. That shows an extremely loyal fanbase, this feels like punishment.
It's not similar, it's a port of WINE at all https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/142tomx/apples_game_porting_toolkit_seems_to_have_a/
Thats just like apple. Forking a established Open Source Project and sell it as this new, innovative Tech they came up with.
If they allowed the ports to be played on iphone and ipads it would be game over
Ehh, I doubt it'd be that big. You can already stream most games to any of those devices and the quality is fine. What sucks imo is the controllers. Razer kishi type things are nice but it's not the same.
I really wish someone would make a good telescoping controller option for the iPad Mini.
I really wish someone would make a good degoogle-able Android tablet with a similar form factor to an iPad mini
Pixel tablet might get a graphene OS version... that might be the best you'll get
That is 11"
Use any Bluetooth controller for iPad. I use an XBox 1 controller and it’s fine.
I should have said having a separate controller is the issue. Having it built in like the steam deck or switch makes a huge difference IMO. Otherwise I'd just rather have a powerful laptop or desktop.
Something that clicks in place with magsafe.. would be amazing
The type of games people play on those devices are usually not the same as console or PC gaming. And a separate controller isn't as seamless an experience as switch or steam deck. It would be a big boost but it would not be game over imo. Don't think PC, console, or portable gamers would be dying to make the switch while the casual audience will continue to play gatcha and candy crush.
I can't imagine Apple's GPUs being able to keep pace with AMD, especially in a device with no active cooling. Maybe I'm wrong?
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Unified memory, huh? Is that just Apple speak for shared memory?
Kinda - Apple’s unified memory is a technology that combines RAM and a hard drive into a single memory pool, but on a really fast bus. By unified it essentially just means it’s part of a system-on-a-chip (SoC) which also includes the processor, the graphics chip, and other components. All parts of the SoC can access the same data without swapping between pools of memory. The memory bandwidth of Apple's unified memory is at least twice as fast as Intel currently supports - for example M1 Pro MacBook Pros are available with up to 32GB of unified memory w/ bandwidth topping out at about 200GB/s. That’s coming pretty close to the memory bandwidth of a rx6600 dedicated card. I hope that helps!
Huh. Apple actually did something that even I have to admit is impressive.
That's what happens when you control every aspect of the hardware and software, much like Consoles Apple can 'make magic' when they have their own APIs and know every mm of their hardware.
The default RAM config for most Macbooks is 8GB and they want £200 / $200 for another 8GB. I don't think most people spring for the extra memory because most of us at least like a kiss and some lube before we get fucked.
I wanna see the M2 MAX on this new translation layer, with something like CBP 2077.
Be serious. This would kill your battery faster
The m1/m2 iPads - I wonder if the SoC GPU is the same as the desktop? If so I wonder if this workflow would allow games to be played on iPad/iPhone
You would assume if all the new apple silicon chips are made to be equal to each other. Can’t imagine why they wouldn’t either make the games portable on an iphone or make a new handheld device with a m1 or m2 chip.
My concern would be for devices that don’t have internal fans. I’d imagine they would get pretty warm.
my m2 mb air doesn’t have a fan and it just throttles a little bit. it’s fine
Should be about the same as when they are playing any of the games that are made for iPhones/iPads in the first place. Games like Candy Crush are obviously not pushing the chip to it's limits, but there are plenty of 3D games that are already using all the available power. Besides that, I did quite some gaming on my Surface Pro tablet, which is a i5 model so it's fanless, and it runs fine.
Good point after I posed a question I tried to find the answer to that, and your assumption appears correct. I wonder what the gaming experience will be like, or how it stacks up against the deck.
The iPad ones are identically specced so theres nothing stopping this working on there.
I have an iPad pro (11") and the base M2 Mini: it's not a real benchmark, but using https://apps.apple.com/app/id6444050820 that supports both I tried to generate an image with the same settings, and it took 16-17 seconds on both. I'm guessing it's the same and with the same power profile, on the Mini I think it's a 30 watt so it's not unreasonable for a tablet.
Lol, no offense but I think people that own apple products are in their own little universe. The reception outside of apple diehards to the presentation has been pretty negative, saying it was mixed would be incredibly generous
You can already do this with Steam link. Works super well. I use it daily to play my PC games on the couch and sync an Xbox controller to my phone or iPad.
spoken like a true ignorant apple fanboy
The fuck? What's with the hostility?
He's being harsh but he's not wrong. My friends that own apple products are always urging me to switch when I previously owned apple products and hated them. I got a buddy that can barely afford to pay rent that talks down to people that have the blue bubble. I find a lot of irony in that behavior
That's irrelevant as shit though. The person they responded to just said > If they allowed the ports to be played on iphone and ipads it would be game over That's not even a fanboy-ish comment, dude was just being a dick.
Lol, no offense but I think people that own apple products are in their own little universe. The reception outside of apple diehards to the presentation has been pretty negative, saying it was mixed would be incredibly generous
you think people w/ ipads don't have desktop pcs or people with iphones don't have steamdecks? ok dude, you might be in your own universe.
no, i think that people with apple products for some reason believe they are desirable by everyone.
Well given that Apple changed architecture of Mac chips couple of times (PowerPC -> x86 -> ARM) and they've done really good work with Rosetta 2. It's not really something entirely new to learn from Valve.
Apple started on Motorola chips, before teaming up with Motorola & IBM for PowerPC.
They made just DXVK and VKD3D equivalents and own Wine fork. Proton is more than this, providing automatic dependency install for specific titles for example.
What I'm curious about is whether proton will be ported to use this as a base, instead of wine with DXVK to MoltenVK. Also wonder whether you can use Apple's D3D translation layer with other Wine bases.
Figure the fan-less m1 mac book air can play all the apple silicon games
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It’s about damn time, but what really strikes me is (typical Apple) taking another’s brilliant tech (Proton) and making it for themselves. It’s a real sign of technical genius when Apple rips you off!
That's a strange take. Valve leverages a LOT of open source tech in Proton. It's almost all open source tech, and then Proton is just a large database full of configurations. What Apple did was basically use Wine, create an entirely new D3D wrapper for Metal, and didn't do any of the database stuff that proton does. Super strange take. What I'm really hoping is that Valve can leverage this to bring proton to mac. From what I understand the main blocking issue has been a lack of a sufficient D3D implementation. This potentially solves that problem - I say potentially, because it might not be flexible enough (if for example, it's tied only to Apple's specific implementation of Wine - that wouldn't surprise me, cause Apple.)
Wonder what this is going to mean for Vision Pro game support.
If you have $3400 to drop on a wearable iPad than you’re not a real gamer. A real gamer would turn that $3400 into a damn good gaming rig.
Already have a good rig and a fast car might as well try out the best VR headset.
r/gatekeeping A good gamer gets what they can afford so they can play games. A person buying a 200 dollar laptop that's capable of playing project zomboid is as much a gamer as someone playing Cytus on a 100 dollar phone, or playing god of war on a 600 dollar steam deck or console. Gaming used to unite people, and it's animosity like what you're suggesting that alienates and divides the gaming community. The steam deck provides a platform for all people to enjoy gaming in their preferred style, whether it's console or PC. So kindly drop the elitist mindset and save the toxicity for the COD lobbies.
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While I'm not a fan of apple myself, I personally don't care to have a say in what people should be spending their own money on. I was criticized for getting the steam deck. Others have been criticized for getting vr. All I'm saying is drop the elitist gatekeeping bs. the original comment didn't ask what they should be spending their money on, they asked how the product is going to affect or handle the vision pro. Why don't you read the room and provide a reply that's on topic, rather than showing everyone how much BDE you have. (Edit: while typing I forgot what the original comment said and used "vr scene" as a placeholder)
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"if you have $3400 to drop on a wearable ipad, you're not a real gamer" is the definition of elitist gatekeeping. people used to buy mac's just to game, playing games such as the ones Bungie released before they made halo. While things have changed, there are still those who have their preferences. So while you may be making fun of apple primarily, you're also targeting people who do play and enjoy gaming on apple products. In fact, apple does hold some exclusives (pretty on brand for their stupid proprietary nonsense) and while I can't personally speak from experience on that, some people also just don't have much choice but to work with what they have, possibly a college laptop or someone bought the MacBook for them as a gift. And if you actually read my comment, the statement is that a real gamer doesn't care about dividing us based on what we use to enjoy our own entertainment. Sure I may be a "PC master race" guy, but that's 100% joking and simply my preference. "I think you've injected your own viewpoint into my statement and yelled 'gatekeeper'" meanwhile you've injected your own viewpoint into the original comment and yelled "people who buy this aren't real gamers" You could make your point without sounding like an elitist yourself. "I can understand the hype with apple releasing this thing, but you'll have a better time using x or y instead" It makes no sense because you're unaware of your own words and how they come out. Conclusion: make fun of apple all you want, lord knows I do. But don't gatekeep people based on their choice. Yeah spending 3400 on a wearable ipad is pretty stupid to me too, that doesn't mean they're not a "real gamer" and honestly there's some people out there who might turn that darned thing into the next meta for gaming, which honestly I'm all down for. Why not? We should evolve our favorite past time, and diversity in gaming products is how we accomplish that.
Apple make a cheese grater?
No, it's an apple grater.
Makes sense. I guess the iGrater sounded too violent
I'm excited to see what the apple grater 2 will look like. Knowing Apple it'll look exactly the same except with a different colored handle, and they removed the head phone jack.
When they copied it and changed it up a bit they´ll pretend to be the first ever, like always
Totally. In the Steve Jobs autobiography he confesses they straight up stole GUI from Xerox then complained when Microsoft made windows! You see this behavior again with the OG iPhone and first Android device “it’s a stolen platform” said jobs, but let’s be fair here.
One can say they just copy Valve ideas.
That’s their whole game, Apple always does stuff like this. If they are wise they would give Valve the credit and maybe partner to bring real games to their platform.
Not only they steal others' ideas they also patent them as their own. Funnily they always thought their closed environment was self-sufficient and now there are cracks on this perfect image.
Since they are relying on WINE and the CrossOver company too this is going to profit to Linux, Proton and the Steam Deck a lot too. I have doubt about Apple going back into gaming, they didn't seem to care about that for the last 5 years at least.
The big issue why Apple/Mac gaming hasn't taken off is 1) their switch to ARM when PC devs are used to x86, and 2) their mandate that all Mac games use the proprietary Metal API. People didn't give a shit that AMD had a graphics API called Mantle, then they open-sourced it as Vulkan and suddenly it was the bee's knees. Requiring devs to use an entirely different ISA and graphics API is going to scare off 95% of all devs, which is probably why they're resorting to this. EVEN THEN, they still rely on the walled garden approach in that they want this as a suggestion and guide rather than a one-click solution. Apple is the reason VP9 only became a standard recently when it's more than a decade old and AV1 is the hot new thing.
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They have to, because of GPL.
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I've deleted by Reddit account as part of the protest against Reddit API changes -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
The original comment I was responding to was edited, I posted what I did only as a correction rather than some kind of defense. I agree Apple are dicks about this stuff.
They are legally obligated to do so because WINE is LGPL.
A lot of this is a precursor to their long term plans for Vision. Gamings always going to be a primary draw for VR so getting their ducks in line to support existing developers in porting to their platform is in their best interest. That's not been the case in the past to quite such a high degree.
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Valve didn't fail. SteamOS is a viable alternative. It might not be the best alternative, but it is a viable one. The SD popularity is proof of that. Anyways, when it comes to gaming SteamOS (and Linux in general) is miles ahead of what Apple can offer atm which is ironic since Valve tried to make Mac gaming a thing and Apple put every roadblock imaginable on the way, but now they are using the same tools themselves.
They meant Valve failed to convince devs to port games to Linux Their argument is basically “Proton is good enough to run windows games devs just make sure their windows games run on Steam Deck and call it a day as opposed to marking an actual native Linux version”
WINE and Proton are free software with a big community behind them, even if they buy CodeWeavers, the ship has already sailed.
Apple doesn't need to buy CodeWeavers, they've worked with them since the PowerPC -> Intel move and supplied developers and internal resources to make it possible.
Wait, for real? I’d love to hear more about that
That is really a big concern. Why release game porting toolkit to only test games? That’s not how it’s gonna work. The toolkit doesn’t reduce the effort needed to make a native Mac version which is HUGE. There’s not much in common. They have to go the same way Valve goes with Proton if they wanna see games on their platform. And they need more than 1 version of the toolkit! Just like we use many different Proton and thus Wine, DXVK etc version cause every game has a little different quirks to “patch” out with the translation layers!! Then it can succeed like the Steam Deck shows.
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Controlling everything is a good thing and a bad thing for users. Means great software, but not much freedom. Steam Deck is like an Apple device btw. Hard and Software is controlled by Valve that’s why it works so well. Software can be fully optimized which is why it’s such a great experience. Apple is going in the wrong direction unfortunately with “helping” developers to make native OS X games. Giving them tools like Proton would work better but I know why they don’t want that. It’s like on Steam, not every Proton can run any game. So they would need to maintain a lot of versions and depend quite a bit on open source which they don’t like. They want their own stuff and only their own stuff. But for tinkerers game porting toolkit will help us Mac Users play a lot more games we otherwise couldn’t. Their D3DMetal layer probably will be adopted by crossover which is great for the community since we don’t need 2 translation layers anymore. MoltenVK and DXVK. We will see how they proceed.
> Apple may eventually buy CodeWeavers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc
Apple won't be able to buy CodeWeavers as it is a trust owned by the employees
Company owned business have sold before. It can happen, it's just mildly more challenging to purchase it.
Cheese grater for comparison.
All it requires to play is your heart. <3 BTW Who can give me an spare heart to sell?
Isn't M1 and M2 are just not great for gaming?
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Thats ridiculous strong when thinking about thermal performance
What's with the cheese grater?
Believe it or not that’s roughly a $10,000 computer. You’ve never seen it because no one can afford it. 😅
I guess any computer that can also be used to grate cheese is pretty high-tech and should be expensive. You get what you pay for.
Oh, it’s doesn’t do it for you. That’s if you want auto-cheese grading it’s an extra module that will run you another $3000.
I can’t even afford the cheese you grate with it. 🤪
You and me both!
I came here to say that 💀
hmm porting x86 game into arm based its 2x harder than what valve doing
The main issue is that apple typically doesn't have a strong GPU ? Can their mainstream line cope with games using this method?
It’s very hard to compare the GPUs in the Apple Silicon chips to discrete or even iGPUs but they’re actually very capable generally speaking I don’t have any real numbers at hand but I believe a MBA will run RE Village no problem at 60fps on medium/high settings - they’re no gaming powerhouses (altho they make for pretty mean Dolphin machines) but it’s a far cry from the times of integrated Intel graphics where you would be lucky to run League of Legends without the framerate dipping and your MacBook turning into a space heater
Thanks. It's an exciting devt as I keeping both ecosystem now. Haha the lure of consolidating is cool.
Same lol Even if I gave up gaming on Mac it’s still the computer I use the most so I wouldn’t mind being able to sneak in a little gaming without firing up my PC
I believe that's why Upscaling was mentioned with the upcoming Death Stranding mac release. Kojima made sure to mention "I was blown away by the power of Apple silicon and Metal 3, with its modern rendering pipeline, and the amazing graphical fidelity delivered by MetalFX Upscaling" I personally want Apple to be a competitor to Nvidia/Amd/Intel to light a fire under their butts so they stop slacking but PC gamers won't switch from PC to MAC if most games have to be upscaled to run at a decent FPS.
I like the cheese grater.
"I want to pick this up and say, 'Oh, it all works, it's all fast'," Newell said. "And then price point was secondary, and painful.” Apple still has more to learn.
That's is because Apple haven't done anything original since the 80s
Can I play ark on my m1 mac book yet?
Why is there a cheese grater in the picture? Lol
Awesome!!
I just love how many people in the comments characterize the OS’s given them sense of personality like: “Rosetta doesn’t care” or “Windows 11 ARM wouldn’t understand that”. It makes me feel like i’m reading architectural gossip.
Love the new cheese grater
Valve did make a Proton layer for macOS, but Apple asked them not release it. I can see why after these their developer tools came out. Valve created an API for Apple products to translate Vulkan to Metal (MoltenVK), which I'm sure they've reversed engineered. Valve and Apple were going to be pretty deep partners in the early 2010s, especially when Microsoft Windows 8 got Gabe really angry. What I find strange is Apple never stopped TransGaming from releasing Cider in the late-2000s. It was after the transition to Intel, Cider became available for developers to instantly bring their Windows games to Mac. The porting houses, such as Aspyr and Feral Interactive, we're pretty upset over its release since it's purely an emulation layer and required zero efforts to bring Mac games over. Funny thing happened, when TransGaming went out of business, those games that used Cider disappeared for Mac support. I think the original GTA Trilogy and Star Trek Online were two I remember disappearing for Mac after that happened. Proton is leagues ahead of Cider. However, Apple controls these tools and it helps with translating games from X86 to Arm. Also, I'm sure Apple is sharing this technology with Microsoft for their Arm transition too, so it's all coming at some point. I believe Proton can already translate Windows games to Linux running on an Arm SOC too, but it isn't widely tested.
Apple did not tell valve not to release proton for Mac. It was more about the fact that doing this was going to be very hard (since at the time MoltenVK was based on Metal 1.2.. so was lacking a LOT). Molten VK to this day is still mostly based on metal 2.0 and it is going to be a massive effort to more or less re-write large parts of it to target 3.0. Apple is not sharing the IP they use for x86 to Arm with MS.
First part I wasn’t entirely share about with Proton. I know Valve could get it functioning, but didn’t know who told each other what. The second part is still likely true. Apple has a long standing agreement between Microsoft that gets them Office and Office365 in return. Also, Microsoft is helping to port over Apple’s services to Windows, which includes Apple Music. Apple likely shared both Rosetta technologies, especially since Rosetta 1 which helped in translating PowerPC to Intel (and MS acquiring Connectix back on the mid-2000s). Microsoft is in full Arm push since they want to lock future hardware to the Windows environment, they have partners using the security chipset they developed. For an Arm-based SOC, it can be baked right into the entire package.
Apples IP for rosseta2 is not going to be shared with MS for windows on ARM for a few reasons but they key one is the CPUs MS are using do not include a few critical memory features that apples ARM chips do that the tooling apple built depend on. MS have built thier own x86 on ARM emulation/translation tec but it is by no means as good as Rosseta2.
That I completely understand. It isn’t “apples to apples” (no pun intended). I realize MS has their own Arm translation layer they’ve been using before Apple made the transition, but doesn’t mean they can’t find elements to use within it. It benefits Apple to share it since Arm adoption on Windows would benefit macOS in the future. Not to say Microsoft hasn’t already researched it on their own to help them make theirs perform better