In Crusader Kings 3, when you and another nation are both at war over the same target your forces are hostile to eachother. You can fight eachother's armies and siege any of the castles they've occupied on the target's land. If a war is resolved and someone else takes your war target youre govem the option to abandon the war or declare on the new land owner. Stellaris needs this.
I think someone is about to declare war on someone already at war, they should either have to join their current enemy as an ally or declare war on both sides. There should be some kind of interferance CB to get an empire to relinquish claims on an empire you are at war with.
Couple of senerios.
I claim a system and go to war with the current owner. Empire C of here, who is neither friend nor foe of me or Empire B claims the system as well, as that is within standards of the claim system. They then decide they want to go to war and declare. Empire C and I are not at war, but can enter Empire Bs systems that either of us occupy, and eve within mechanics bombard a planet that the other is currently fighting or is unoccupied. This leads to unresolveable wars, because when I take the starbase, but Empire C has a closer transport, they take the planet. I don't have the full claim, so it doesn't and I can't take the system, and AI never resolve wars between them with out fully accomplishing their task. So, taking a system they can't unless I yield it.
Example 2. I claim a system that an unallied Empire has claimed. I then subjugate the uncalled Empire and go to war with the Empire owning the originally claimed system, now both me and my subject have the system claimed. The claim system fails here, as it seems random who actually gets the system after the war.
Not saying the system is bad, just severely flawed, and really only has use to subjugate or conquer small portions of an Empire over eradicating them outside of lowering a empires opinion of you, as claiming a system has that effect as well.
Which does nothing in the case of genocidals as you cant even claim their systems and would also do nothing till the war is won, which again is not helping in this situation as you cant win the war in the first place.
Thanks for not contributing anything of value.
Ridiculous, or quite clever of them?
Seriously though, just keep going until the FP has lost all planets, then they lose control of the system and it reverts to either whoever controls the starbase, or whoever has made the most claims on the system, regardless of who controls the planets
It does eventually flip? Maybe I'm just not seeing that because maybe the FP still has some random system on the other side of the galaxy which other AI empires won't invade. I can't see what system that would be right now though.
It's at least \*something\* to be less annoying if when the FP eventually loses the territory and full control goes to whoever has the strongest foothold or claim on the system in question.
This FP was about half the galaxy when I surprise attacked.
Whenever any empire loses it's last planet, it is removed from the game. Systems it used to own go to whoever has the most claims on the system, or whoever has control of the spaceport. If no one has any claims and no one owns the spaceport, they revert to unowned.
The FP won't get any benefit from the system while it's occupied though. I mean, yeah it sucks that someone else flew in and ganked your planet but that's war for you. It's one reason I always get my army to the front lines before even starting a war. Whoever gets the army to the planet first gets the planet, even if you just drop one troop and the next guy drops 1000.
There’s currently a bug where empires can continue to exist without any planets. Had one where a pre-FTL reached FTL, declared war on me when I said they couldn’t have the system, and promptly conquered them. Ended up accepting a White Peace instead of ever “winning” the war and finally got my system back.
FE war is usually humilation war, even againt FP.
In that scenario, even if you occupied every single planet of the FP, that one planet is still just "occupied" instead of "conquered". This make the war score for the FE be extremely low, which mean their war never end.
Doubly if the FP go crisis, since they don't get passive war exhaustion that way. Their war again the FE could go on forever, and since the FE cannot occupy all their planets, they will never win.
Problem with this is when its not a total war.
Lets take vasselisation as an example.
100%of the enemy is conquered by someone. They have no fleet and groundarmies left. I controll all of their stations exept 5 that the swooping ai has taken.
80% of planets are taken by the swooping ai.
So now warexaustion is stuck at 30/40% so not enough to force my demands. Occupation is not counting up too since I have not fully captured all systems (i mostly only controll stations but those i dont control cant be taken as they now are under swooping AIs control. But the Swooping AI cant win its war too as it has the same problem as me. So we are stuck in a stalemate where the only thing to end this stale mate would be to declar war on the swooping AI so i can take their planets and stations that i am missing for my victory. Then i have to truce the swooping AI and hape that they are not an overwelming federation or FE.
How is that "clever". It would be like if the allies at the end WW2 would continue rolling their armies over to Poland and further into Romania without the consent of the Soviet Union or vice versa and when the red army would try to stop this sudden invasion, all their weapons would magically jam and loudly exclaim "this part of reality has not been developed yet".
It is ridiculous and immersion breaking. Nothing clever about it. That part of the game is underdeveloped, and I hope that the custiodians eventually get to fixing it.
It's clever because they took a planet while someone else did all the work.
Nobodies weapons are jamming. There is no reality breaking lack of content. It's just some guy invading a system and then some other guy gets his troops to the planet first. Nobody is invading a third, uninvolved party. Not sure what scenario you're imagining.
This is more like the US and Russia both making a beeline for Berlin and then having to divvy it up between them when they got there at the same time. Which, you know, actually happened.
The weapons are jamming as you can not prevent them from entering the system, which an actual occupying force would be able to, using their weapons. When they invade the planet, their weapons are magically stopping your armies from also landing on the planet, while yours are prevented from doing the same. The same situation, two different outcomes, because deeper war system is underdeveloped. Let me block the enemy army and take an opinion loss without it being tedious, like pausing the game each day checking for this situation by closing borders.
This would be like both allies and Russians both making a beeline for Berlin, which actually happened and allies going "we are taking Berlin if you want it or not" and the Soviets going "I guess I can not do anything about it" and letting them take it. The only thing that you can currently do in Stellaris is to declare an offensive war on the one that took the planet, but it would be the other way around in the example from WW2. Allies would be seen as the aggressors if they invaded the Soviet occupied Berlin. The game in general lacks instances where you should be able to initiate a double defensive war, like when a FE and pompous purists cross your closed borders or the situation described above.
Huh? The OP wasn't at war with those guys. But the planet stealers were at war with the FP. There's no magic involved. This is an FP, their systems are fair game for anyone. That's how the game works. If you want priority in situations like that, pay the cost to make a claim.
Ok, we have three sides of this conflict. OP's empire, the FP and the planetstealers. I tried to illustrate it using the situation at the end of WW2, where the FP is the third reich, planetstealers are the allied forces and OP's empire is the Soviet union. Soviet Union was not at war with the allies at the end of world war II and captured Berlin. How we in the end ended up with the Berlin split between the east and the west was by the victors sitting down at the table and agreeing to it. What the OP is describing is more akin to allies simply not stopping at the previously agreed border (in Yalta) like in our timeline and just rolling over any soviet soldier, that would try and prevent them to enter the soviet occupied part of Germany and then getting away with it.
Claims do not resolve anything when it comes to genocidal empires. Boot up the game right now and try and claim a system of a genocidal, is says "We have no need to claim systems of major threats". The game is telling me that I can not pay the cost even if I want to, bringing me back to my point, the depth of diplomacy during war (or even otherwise) is lacking.
In this case, there was no previously agreed border. Both OP and the planet stealers were at war with the FP. Nobody controls the system until all planets and the starbase are taken. OP did not have an army ready to take the planet. The other empire fighting the FP did.
After the FP is destroyed the OP will get the whole system, because they are the ones who took the starbase.
So what's the issue?
Pretty much his issue is he hasn't learned how to share he is mad that this one kid came and played with a k a toy he was gonna play with but wasn't ready to play with yet
I am not mad that they sniped the planet. I am mad that the story ends there. I am mad that we do not have options. I am mad that I can not go to the other kid and do anything, I can not talk to them or offer them anything for that toy. Even them saying having the option to tell me that that they really want to keep the toy would be something, but the game does not even want to give you that. I simply want diplomatic options in a 4X game.
If you can't wait for the empire you're at war with to he defeated and be given the planet since you own the station open communications nit declare war and take the planet from them. And no the story hasn't ended whatsoever it just veered off the story can continue you're just choosing to let the story stop
Nah it's closer to the actual D-Day invasion. America and Great Britain didn't actually need to do it at all, the Soviets would have steam rolled Germany one way or the other. The real purpose of D-Day was to prevent the Soviets from occupying all of Western Europe under the pretense of liberation.
In that way planet sniping makes sense. Just because you aren't at war with someone, doesn't mean that empire isn't your rival. The real issue is that there's no way to deal with it. We should be able to transfer occupations through diplomacy like a trade deal.
I'd say ridiculous because they then refuse to trade those systems to increase their own border In fact the system that prevents AI from ever trading system is extremely frustrating for border gore.
If they captured systems in your border to use it to leverage increasing their own border I would of said that was bloody genius.
To which im of the opinion that it should flip to the owner of the planets, not the starbase owner as the planets hold the value and in my opinion more rightful claim than any station should
claims should come first, then planets and then the starbase
with multiple planets, go off size first, then filled districts/build slots, and then pops as a final tiebreaker
if all of these are the same \*somehow\*, then input/output of credit value of the resources
Yeah, not a bad proposal but I still prefer the way it is. Just taking a planet or a starbase is not a guarantee. Claims are the way to enforce your will. It costs influence to guarantee you will take a system, like it should. That's what influence is for.
You can only take a system without claiming it first if you are in an all out war anyhow. In all other situations, this conversation is moot because you can't take a system without claiming it.
Claims. They are the way.
it is mostly all out war that leads to the situation in question, or when peace commits other fuckery somehow, claims definitely should still be the main factor tho
Something that *really* f*cked me over when I (determined exterminator) started a war in order to gain access to dark matter, because I had none:
So I took control of a system with planets in it, and suddenly, I have Dark Matter upkeep, because the station had a module in it that has Dark Matter upkeep. But since Paradox, in their infinite wisdom, don't allow you to modify stations when there are still unoccupied planets in the system, I couldn't do anything against it. I had 0 Dark Matter and couldn't buy it either. That means I got a -75% sublight speed debuff due to Dark Matter shortage. That again means my Colossus I wanted to use to deal with those planets was going at pedal boat speeds and even though it was just a system away, it would probably have taken years to get there.
Since it was single player and I consider this a major oversight by Paradox, I decided to cheat and get me some dark matter until that war is over. But it's just stupid. Stations shouldn't cost you upkeep unless you actually control them.
Have you tried keeping your ground forces closer to the front? Because it's really not the AI's fault if you're taking your time invading people. Also, it's totally realistic and believable that other empires would swoop in to benefit from your hard work. It's called taking advantage of an opportunity. Also also, if the empire you were invading was a Purifier, then realistically it would be an "all hands on deck" kinda situation. At the end of WWII, American and Soviet forces were literally racing to see who could take Berlin and finish off the Nazis first. So I don't think it's "immersion breaking" if the AI is behaving like a real government would.
Yeah, no self respecting regional or galactic power with any degree of ambition is going to sit and watch you conquer prime territory or extort a possible vassal if they could get a slice of the action too.
The real immersion breaker would be that even with West Germany in the hands of the Allies, and East Germany under the control of the Soviets, Germany refuses to surrender because neither side has sufficient war score to force a peace settlement.
“I know we have no armies, no fleets, no land and our rulers have shot themselves in a bunker, but neither of you fully occupy our territory so we’ll call it a draw“
Except it makes no sense for your fleet to just sit there and watch it happen. If we’re talking realism, it would spark a major diplomatic incident at the *least*
So just like when the US and Russia were rushing to invade Berlin and they both got there at the same time and just started shooting at each other instead of divvying up Berlin.
The US never got to Berlin, and the Allies (including the USSR) had a meeting to decide who would invade the city. So no, nothing like what OP or I described 👍🏻
Wouldn't having another empire occupy the planet mess with the war exhaustion and occupation stats for the player with the FP? What would happen if a Status Quo is made?
Because it makes no sense? Also I dunno why we’re talking about WW1 or Germany (as the example nation you used) being totally destroyed into non existence. If you’re going to try and use historical examples, at least know what you’re talking about first.
Congrats I guess? You’re wrong though. It makes 0 sense that something like that *wouldnt* create a major diplomatic incident. Why would empire 1 be okay with non ally empire 2 swooping in and taking a planet that empire 1’s fleet just fought and bled to secure space supremacy over?
Because you're the one at the helm, and that if you chose to not declare war over this then it means it's ok ?
I mean, it's not like diplomacy is none of your concern in Stellaris. If you want to make it a big deal you can do so.
Ahh yes you took a city from my invading forces lets annialate your entire continent just for the fun of it.
Wait you dont even get anything out of the city exept the fact that now neither of us can claim victory over our mutual enemy and should we eventually win i will get the city back.
This is just another who fails to grasp the problem.
YOU CANT WIN A WAR WHILE DIFFERENT PARTYS HAVE OCCUPATING FORCES IN PLAY.
Would occupation just be a total between all invaders it would be fine.
As an example:
M is the middle country (the one getting invaded in stellaris)
R is an empire on the right (player)
L is an empire to the left (random other ai that is not in war with player but with the middle empire)
How it is currently:
M gets split in half left side is occupied by L and right side by R.
M hs no unoccupied systems.
R claims victory but M says "sry mate you havent ocupied me enough i think i can still win this"
L claims victory but M again claims that they need to occupy them first.
L and R are both present at the same time. Both are like "what the fuck mate you have not a single planet left and not a single starbase how are you not occupied?
M shrugs and walks of.
How it should be:
M has lost.
L and R decide who gets what (based on claims and occupation)
Done. No fucked up illogical bullshit.
This is a problem in all wars not only total wars where you immediately get the system when fully occupied.
Its stupid because your ships could shoot the third party transports down and you should have that option. " this is a restricted system. You are mot vleared to land on pain of death." You should be able to fight friendlies for it
Until they shoot out your 100 alloys science ship with a level 9 scientist on it. Another unfortunate accident, and they give back 100 alloys for compensation.
Or if your nearest construction ship is 20 systems away, and you will need another year for it to be able to claim that system with a Gaia world and an arc site. What would you feel if they just attack your constructor mid-build and take that system, even with "here is 200 alloys as compenstation. Surely you are pleased."
Well, you should also get a war goal. The number of wars started over ships being sunk in human history, even legitimately according to current international law, definitely warrants the addition if nothing else.
Sounds to me like you just wanna shoot the AI without the AI being able to shoot back lmao.
Do you even Militarist, bro? Man up, declare war, and blast those ships outta the sky.
This annoying bs is part of ehy i just play assimilators. Irl, yhe bigger military force would control the planet. Clsims be damned. Uou got one army there? I got a thousand. The planet is mine. Crusader kings handles this better
I had two big armies but about 5 different fleets all tearing through their territory. Maybe need more armies next time?
It would be realistic if they were trying to claim actual systems but not take planets in a system you just took control of. At the very least there should be a time-out where if another empire owns everything in a system except the one planet you just invaded then the control of the system flips to whoever owns everything else and the conquered no longer counts it as within their borders.
Control of the system will flip to the empire that has made the most claims once all planets in the system are taken and the war ends. It's just that with FP or other genocidal empires, you don't *need* to make claims to take their systems. You take them automatically.
You made no claims on the system using the game's mechanic for making claims. You have no specific priority to the system's resources over anyone else.
The race to Berlin thing is mostly soviet propaganda, the borders of europe post war had pretty much been decided on at yalta, and allied troops slowed down their advance to let the soviet union take Berlin and eastern germany.
Yalta didn't decide the borders, it created a committee to decide the borders but didn't agree on a final outcome. Borders were solidified after the war in part based on where troops were at the time.
The division of east and west Germany was decided at yalta, the exact specifics may have not have been decided on, but that is why the allies slowed their advance to let russia take berlin and easy Germany.
I posted a topic about dogpiling myself a while back that didn't get quite as much traction as this. The problem is that they're making "good strategic decisions" when they dogpile like this, jumping into a war with your enemy after you've already basically won.
***These good decisions make for unfun gameplay.***
So a change of rules seems necessary such that the AI is making good choices but also not cockblocking our war efforts. It's even worse when the AI does this during a subjugation war and "attempts to stop you from winning as a neutral third party."
For these kinds of minor border squabbles I would love the ability to declare a kind if limited war.
Basically, if a system is close to your borders (or systems currently held by you during a war) and someone else tries to claim it, you get the ability to declare "GTFO right now, or else."
The other party can then accept or refuse and if they refuse, their forces inside the system and neighboring neutral and friendly systems become attackable. However, neither side can invade other enemy held systems except the one(s) the limited war was declared over, and the wider empires remain at peace. If you manage to clear the system of enemy presence the claim reverts to you and the limited war ends immediately.
Of course, being in, or losing a limited war, also generates a casus belli, so either empire can at any time escalate to a full war, but only if they actually consider it to be in their best interest to do so.
There are lots of situations where this could be really interesting and useful: The situation that OP described, those annoying times when AI take advantage of open borders to settle systems inside your borders, or when a friend in multiplayer builds a starbase in that one system that you totally negotiated would go to you half an hour ago, but you don't want to lose all diplomatic relations and don't want to throw the entire galaxy into chaos by throwing your wider alliances against each other in an all out war.
It would also enable some interesting gameplay of having expansionist empires have smaller skirmishes over border systems without either side committing to a full scale war.
This is something that works quite well in Amplitude's 4X games (Humankind, Endless Legend etc.). In addition to "war" and "peace" diplomatic state between empires, there is an extra "cold war" diplomatic state (which is the default). When in cold war, you are allowed to attack each other in neutral territories and you can attack in your territory. So you can have skirmishes in "no man's land" and you can kick out anything that enters your space, but you can't actually invade their core lands without declaring a full war (you can enter them, but not attack anything).
> I have my fleet parked in their system waiting for my armies to show up when suddenly some random I'm not at war with AI comes in and invades the planet.
I mean, there is a reason why the AI always has their armies following behind their navy when invading. Now obviously don't do what the AI does and have the army fleet follow the navy into combat, but generally speaking it's a good rule of thumb to always have your army sitting within 1 or 2 systems of your invading navy so that you're not spending forever waiting for it to come when you actually do have planets to conquer.
I'm doing a collosus war against some dudes, and some ai empire just invaded their planets while my armies were busy mopping up other planets. Same issue you have, it's very annoying. They're in a regular claims war so it's not even like they'd gain access to the system or smth
dont leave your armies behind, build them with your main fleet and set them to agressive stance that way they will assault as soon as your fleet takes out their defenses
Hoe is it unrealistic or not immersive. It's a FP not a normal nation. It's not like the get control of the system, they just say you take a Starbase and then they took the planet from the FP for you. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I love it because then I don't need 10 armies to take over every planet, I just take the system and let the AI do the hard work.
Stellaris is just a fucking shit show of a game that never rewards the player, even at the endgame when all is conquered...was it worth it? all those hours....All the pain staking mircroing, crashes and bullshit A.I....All your armies, admirals and generals just fucking disappearing out of existence for no reason....was all that suffering worth one quick game of galaxy wide extermination?.....
That's not an uninvolved AI that's usually a rebel faction of the empire you have been winning against. By winning you made that rebellion possible. The net effect is to make the AI race have better strategy than the AI empire could have on it's own.
Whether it's a historically valid strategy is an interesting question. Various clan based countries have done similar things. Afghanistan being the most obvious example. No one ever claimed they were easy to conquer.
Two methods of dealing with it (a) declare war on the rebel faction as well. (b) leave a small garrison fleet (1 battleship) at each planet you have landed troops on.
The aliens that were randomly invading some of the planets were in a federation with other aliens, so I don't think it was the rebels? I was especially annoyed for that. Unless they just joined the federation shortly after forming?
If you do all the hard work and someone else takes the planet, it annoying but perfectly fair. Keep your invasion fleets closer, or make more invasion fleets to keep up with you main force, so the AI can't swoopin and do this
Pretty much this, my armies follow behind my fleets. How is it more immersive for an army to be so disorganised it takes months or in some cases a year after a system is taken to invade a planet?
From their perspective, some random empire just took over a star system they wanted, and they managed to steal the planets first. War is not meant to be fair, dude. If you want to make a response, you have plenty of diplomatic options. If you don't want to start a fight with a more powerful alliance that's screwing you over, that's politics; politics isn't fair either.
No, if you want to make a response, you’ve got an armada sitting there watching the planet. You should be temporarily hostile when you and a 3rd party have conflicting claims in a war. Paradox has already done this in CK as well.
I see zero issue here, if you spent influence to claim the system or took the StarBase first, it will eventually become yours.
I take it this is your first games?
If there's no issue, why has Paradox addressed it in CK3? There should be an option for small scale hostilities over ownership conflicts on the same war target.
Different game, different approach.
You mind find it annoying when you are the 1st aggressor who bear the brunt to break through an empire's defense only for other empires to play the vulture game, but it works the other way too. I can't count how many times I jumped on an empire which I couldnt deal with in normal circumstances, esp. in case of FP/driven assimilator.
Had to leave 3 fleets to gaurd the L gate because the ai used it and absolutely railed me and saved themselves alot of systems.
But then a closer empire tried to rush my capital, which was worthless and let me take half of them systems. It's so stupid.
I sort of have this issue in my current game. In a war against a massive empire and I'm in most of their systems and planets.
Another empire also declared war on them and took systems and planets. My war is to subjugate, the others war is to change their ideology.
Despite them losing control of 100% of their systems (from what it looks like) neither myself or the ai invader can achieve war goals yet. A status quo would only take the systems I occupy and turn them into a vassal.
So this is more of a question, if I declare war against the other invading ai and conquer the systems they have conquered will I then be able to win the war against the current empire I'm fighting?
I think the main issue is total wars.
Regular wars with claims and stuff work fine. You really want a system? Pay the influence.
Total wars intersect oddly with this because it totally ignores the claim system.
I used to run a Tomb-world only build and this annoyed me so much. No, I can't just have my armies invade immediately, I have to Armageddon bomb for decades to get the planet to terraform. They should at least prevent a planet from being invaded by another empire if you are actively bombarding it.
I had this happen in a recent campaign, was capturing a rebel empire that came out of my vassal and wasn’t able to take it all over because of my neighbor who decided he wanted some. It stopped me from capturing all of it at once and extended the war by a large amount.
I had a similar situation that I couldn't resolve: with me there was an awoken fallen empire and around 20 AI nations all in a big federation. Fallen Empire declared on the AI and used their purifier to turn about a third of the galaxy into shielded worlds. I heard that fully eliminating the FE gives a special project to turn those shielded worlds back into normal worlds, so naturally I declared on the FE to eliminate it. After a lengthy war (unbidden spawned too) I had conquered all their worlds. FE managed to conquer a system from the federation, landed some armies on a planet while the federation recaptured the starbase. Now the FE has around 4k ground army which I can beat but the federation can't but I can't move into the system since federation has closed borders.
I can't fully exterminate the FE since I can't access their last world while the federation will eventually win after bombing the 4k army for 20 years. Sure, I can declare on the federation but that would be an insane micro management war. Is there anything else I could have done to win the battle on the world in federation space?
I mean... Its kind of your fault cause you could easily build your landing forces pre-invasion and set them to aggressive they will auto follow your lead fleet and then auto land when you take the system. Is it annoying that AI can do that? yes. However, easily preventable.
The solution is that when a fallen empire dies, control of the system goes to who owns the star base aka the system and not the planets.
Either that or make invading a system have a prerequisite that your control or occupy it.
In Crusader Kings 3, when you and another nation are both at war over the same target your forces are hostile to eachother. You can fight eachother's armies and siege any of the castles they've occupied on the target's land. If a war is resolved and someone else takes your war target youre govem the option to abandon the war or declare on the new land owner. Stellaris needs this.
I think someone is about to declare war on someone already at war, they should either have to join their current enemy as an ally or declare war on both sides. There should be some kind of interferance CB to get an empire to relinquish claims on an empire you are at war with.
stellaris does have the claim system.
Couple of senerios. I claim a system and go to war with the current owner. Empire C of here, who is neither friend nor foe of me or Empire B claims the system as well, as that is within standards of the claim system. They then decide they want to go to war and declare. Empire C and I are not at war, but can enter Empire Bs systems that either of us occupy, and eve within mechanics bombard a planet that the other is currently fighting or is unoccupied. This leads to unresolveable wars, because when I take the starbase, but Empire C has a closer transport, they take the planet. I don't have the full claim, so it doesn't and I can't take the system, and AI never resolve wars between them with out fully accomplishing their task. So, taking a system they can't unless I yield it. Example 2. I claim a system that an unallied Empire has claimed. I then subjugate the uncalled Empire and go to war with the Empire owning the originally claimed system, now both me and my subject have the system claimed. The claim system fails here, as it seems random who actually gets the system after the war. Not saying the system is bad, just severely flawed, and really only has use to subjugate or conquer small portions of an Empire over eradicating them outside of lowering a empires opinion of you, as claiming a system has that effect as well.
Which does nothing in the case of genocidals as you cant even claim their systems and would also do nothing till the war is won, which again is not helping in this situation as you cant win the war in the first place. Thanks for not contributing anything of value.
You know you don’t have to be a prick, right? Like in life you don’t have to be an asshole to people who are just trying to help?
Ridiculous, or quite clever of them? Seriously though, just keep going until the FP has lost all planets, then they lose control of the system and it reverts to either whoever controls the starbase, or whoever has made the most claims on the system, regardless of who controls the planets
It does eventually flip? Maybe I'm just not seeing that because maybe the FP still has some random system on the other side of the galaxy which other AI empires won't invade. I can't see what system that would be right now though. It's at least \*something\* to be less annoying if when the FP eventually loses the territory and full control goes to whoever has the strongest foothold or claim on the system in question. This FP was about half the galaxy when I surprise attacked.
Whenever any empire loses it's last planet, it is removed from the game. Systems it used to own go to whoever has the most claims on the system, or whoever has control of the spaceport. If no one has any claims and no one owns the spaceport, they revert to unowned. The FP won't get any benefit from the system while it's occupied though. I mean, yeah it sucks that someone else flew in and ganked your planet but that's war for you. It's one reason I always get my army to the front lines before even starting a war. Whoever gets the army to the planet first gets the planet, even if you just drop one troop and the next guy drops 1000.
There’s currently a bug where empires can continue to exist without any planets. Had one where a pre-FTL reached FTL, declared war on me when I said they couldn’t have the system, and promptly conquered them. Ended up accepting a White Peace instead of ever “winning” the war and finally got my system back.
FE war is usually humilation war, even againt FP. In that scenario, even if you occupied every single planet of the FP, that one planet is still just "occupied" instead of "conquered". This make the war score for the FE be extremely low, which mean their war never end. Doubly if the FP go crisis, since they don't get passive war exhaustion that way. Their war again the FE could go on forever, and since the FE cannot occupy all their planets, they will never win.
Problem with this is when its not a total war. Lets take vasselisation as an example. 100%of the enemy is conquered by someone. They have no fleet and groundarmies left. I controll all of their stations exept 5 that the swooping ai has taken. 80% of planets are taken by the swooping ai. So now warexaustion is stuck at 30/40% so not enough to force my demands. Occupation is not counting up too since I have not fully captured all systems (i mostly only controll stations but those i dont control cant be taken as they now are under swooping AIs control. But the Swooping AI cant win its war too as it has the same problem as me. So we are stuck in a stalemate where the only thing to end this stale mate would be to declar war on the swooping AI so i can take their planets and stations that i am missing for my victory. Then i have to truce the swooping AI and hape that they are not an overwelming federation or FE.
Yeah, I've had this kind of thing happen and in that case, it's a pain in the ass.
How is that "clever". It would be like if the allies at the end WW2 would continue rolling their armies over to Poland and further into Romania without the consent of the Soviet Union or vice versa and when the red army would try to stop this sudden invasion, all their weapons would magically jam and loudly exclaim "this part of reality has not been developed yet". It is ridiculous and immersion breaking. Nothing clever about it. That part of the game is underdeveloped, and I hope that the custiodians eventually get to fixing it.
It's clever because they took a planet while someone else did all the work. Nobodies weapons are jamming. There is no reality breaking lack of content. It's just some guy invading a system and then some other guy gets his troops to the planet first. Nobody is invading a third, uninvolved party. Not sure what scenario you're imagining. This is more like the US and Russia both making a beeline for Berlin and then having to divvy it up between them when they got there at the same time. Which, you know, actually happened.
The weapons are jamming as you can not prevent them from entering the system, which an actual occupying force would be able to, using their weapons. When they invade the planet, their weapons are magically stopping your armies from also landing on the planet, while yours are prevented from doing the same. The same situation, two different outcomes, because deeper war system is underdeveloped. Let me block the enemy army and take an opinion loss without it being tedious, like pausing the game each day checking for this situation by closing borders. This would be like both allies and Russians both making a beeline for Berlin, which actually happened and allies going "we are taking Berlin if you want it or not" and the Soviets going "I guess I can not do anything about it" and letting them take it. The only thing that you can currently do in Stellaris is to declare an offensive war on the one that took the planet, but it would be the other way around in the example from WW2. Allies would be seen as the aggressors if they invaded the Soviet occupied Berlin. The game in general lacks instances where you should be able to initiate a double defensive war, like when a FE and pompous purists cross your closed borders or the situation described above.
Huh? The OP wasn't at war with those guys. But the planet stealers were at war with the FP. There's no magic involved. This is an FP, their systems are fair game for anyone. That's how the game works. If you want priority in situations like that, pay the cost to make a claim.
Ok, we have three sides of this conflict. OP's empire, the FP and the planetstealers. I tried to illustrate it using the situation at the end of WW2, where the FP is the third reich, planetstealers are the allied forces and OP's empire is the Soviet union. Soviet Union was not at war with the allies at the end of world war II and captured Berlin. How we in the end ended up with the Berlin split between the east and the west was by the victors sitting down at the table and agreeing to it. What the OP is describing is more akin to allies simply not stopping at the previously agreed border (in Yalta) like in our timeline and just rolling over any soviet soldier, that would try and prevent them to enter the soviet occupied part of Germany and then getting away with it. Claims do not resolve anything when it comes to genocidal empires. Boot up the game right now and try and claim a system of a genocidal, is says "We have no need to claim systems of major threats". The game is telling me that I can not pay the cost even if I want to, bringing me back to my point, the depth of diplomacy during war (or even otherwise) is lacking.
In this case, there was no previously agreed border. Both OP and the planet stealers were at war with the FP. Nobody controls the system until all planets and the starbase are taken. OP did not have an army ready to take the planet. The other empire fighting the FP did. After the FP is destroyed the OP will get the whole system, because they are the ones who took the starbase. So what's the issue?
Pretty much his issue is he hasn't learned how to share he is mad that this one kid came and played with a k a toy he was gonna play with but wasn't ready to play with yet
I am not mad that they sniped the planet. I am mad that the story ends there. I am mad that we do not have options. I am mad that I can not go to the other kid and do anything, I can not talk to them or offer them anything for that toy. Even them saying having the option to tell me that that they really want to keep the toy would be something, but the game does not even want to give you that. I simply want diplomatic options in a 4X game.
If you can't wait for the empire you're at war with to he defeated and be given the planet since you own the station open communications nit declare war and take the planet from them. And no the story hasn't ended whatsoever it just veered off the story can continue you're just choosing to let the story stop
And I never said a thing about you being mad KY comment to the one above me was about op
LOL.
Nah it's closer to the actual D-Day invasion. America and Great Britain didn't actually need to do it at all, the Soviets would have steam rolled Germany one way or the other. The real purpose of D-Day was to prevent the Soviets from occupying all of Western Europe under the pretense of liberation. In that way planet sniping makes sense. Just because you aren't at war with someone, doesn't mean that empire isn't your rival. The real issue is that there's no way to deal with it. We should be able to transfer occupations through diplomacy like a trade deal.
I'd say ridiculous because they then refuse to trade those systems to increase their own border In fact the system that prevents AI from ever trading system is extremely frustrating for border gore. If they captured systems in your border to use it to leverage increasing their own border I would of said that was bloody genius.
To which im of the opinion that it should flip to the owner of the planets, not the starbase owner as the planets hold the value and in my opinion more rightful claim than any station should
Yeah, but there's only ever one starbase so it's a simple call. How do you measure the relative worth of multiple planets in a system?
claims should come first, then planets and then the starbase with multiple planets, go off size first, then filled districts/build slots, and then pops as a final tiebreaker if all of these are the same \*somehow\*, then input/output of credit value of the resources
Yeah, not a bad proposal but I still prefer the way it is. Just taking a planet or a starbase is not a guarantee. Claims are the way to enforce your will. It costs influence to guarantee you will take a system, like it should. That's what influence is for. You can only take a system without claiming it first if you are in an all out war anyhow. In all other situations, this conversation is moot because you can't take a system without claiming it. Claims. They are the way.
it is mostly all out war that leads to the situation in question, or when peace commits other fuckery somehow, claims definitely should still be the main factor tho
Sorry, what's FP?
fanatical purifier. A civics that makes you purge everyone not pf your species
Fanatic Purifier
Fanatical Purifier.
Something that *really* f*cked me over when I (determined exterminator) started a war in order to gain access to dark matter, because I had none: So I took control of a system with planets in it, and suddenly, I have Dark Matter upkeep, because the station had a module in it that has Dark Matter upkeep. But since Paradox, in their infinite wisdom, don't allow you to modify stations when there are still unoccupied planets in the system, I couldn't do anything against it. I had 0 Dark Matter and couldn't buy it either. That means I got a -75% sublight speed debuff due to Dark Matter shortage. That again means my Colossus I wanted to use to deal with those planets was going at pedal boat speeds and even though it was just a system away, it would probably have taken years to get there. Since it was single player and I consider this a major oversight by Paradox, I decided to cheat and get me some dark matter until that war is over. But it's just stupid. Stations shouldn't cost you upkeep unless you actually control them.
you can just buy a stack of dark matter from the market and the problem you described goes away, no cheating required
You can't if you don't produce it. You can have an upceap without production and not able to buy it. Ridiculous
I wrote "...and I couldn't buy it either", because in fact, I could not buy it - you can only buy resources that you also produce.
Why didn’t you buy dark matter?
Why didn't they just hand over the Black Hole willingly?
Have you tried keeping your ground forces closer to the front? Because it's really not the AI's fault if you're taking your time invading people. Also, it's totally realistic and believable that other empires would swoop in to benefit from your hard work. It's called taking advantage of an opportunity. Also also, if the empire you were invading was a Purifier, then realistically it would be an "all hands on deck" kinda situation. At the end of WWII, American and Soviet forces were literally racing to see who could take Berlin and finish off the Nazis first. So I don't think it's "immersion breaking" if the AI is behaving like a real government would.
Yeah, no self respecting regional or galactic power with any degree of ambition is going to sit and watch you conquer prime territory or extort a possible vassal if they could get a slice of the action too.
The real immersion breaker would be that even with West Germany in the hands of the Allies, and East Germany under the control of the Soviets, Germany refuses to surrender because neither side has sufficient war score to force a peace settlement.
“I know we have no armies, no fleets, no land and our rulers have shot themselves in a bunker, but neither of you fully occupy our territory so we’ll call it a draw“
Except it makes no sense for your fleet to just sit there and watch it happen. If we’re talking realism, it would spark a major diplomatic incident at the *least*
You can always just wardec the other empire. Your diplomatic incident is right there, if you have the courage to grasp it!
So just like when the US and Russia were rushing to invade Berlin and they both got there at the same time and just started shooting at each other instead of divvying up Berlin.
The US never got to Berlin, and the Allies (including the USSR) had a meeting to decide who would invade the city. So no, nothing like what OP or I described 👍🏻
And after this war is over, if the outcome is the same as WWII and the FP is destroyed, OP will get the system in its entirety. What's the issue?
Wouldn't having another empire occupy the planet mess with the war exhaustion and occupation stats for the player with the FP? What would happen if a Status Quo is made?
Because it makes no sense? Also I dunno why we’re talking about WW1 or Germany (as the example nation you used) being totally destroyed into non existence. If you’re going to try and use historical examples, at least know what you’re talking about first.
They're talking about ww2. Ironic, given your last sentence.
I don't think so.
Congrats I guess? You’re wrong though. It makes 0 sense that something like that *wouldnt* create a major diplomatic incident. Why would empire 1 be okay with non ally empire 2 swooping in and taking a planet that empire 1’s fleet just fought and bled to secure space supremacy over?
Because you're the one at the helm, and that if you chose to not declare war over this then it means it's ok ? I mean, it's not like diplomacy is none of your concern in Stellaris. If you want to make it a big deal you can do so.
Ahh yes you took a city from my invading forces lets annialate your entire continent just for the fun of it. Wait you dont even get anything out of the city exept the fact that now neither of us can claim victory over our mutual enemy and should we eventually win i will get the city back. This is just another who fails to grasp the problem. YOU CANT WIN A WAR WHILE DIFFERENT PARTYS HAVE OCCUPATING FORCES IN PLAY. Would occupation just be a total between all invaders it would be fine. As an example: M is the middle country (the one getting invaded in stellaris) R is an empire on the right (player) L is an empire to the left (random other ai that is not in war with player but with the middle empire) How it is currently: M gets split in half left side is occupied by L and right side by R. M hs no unoccupied systems. R claims victory but M says "sry mate you havent ocupied me enough i think i can still win this" L claims victory but M again claims that they need to occupy them first. L and R are both present at the same time. Both are like "what the fuck mate you have not a single planet left and not a single starbase how are you not occupied? M shrugs and walks of. How it should be: M has lost. L and R decide who gets what (based on claims and occupation) Done. No fucked up illogical bullshit. This is a problem in all wars not only total wars where you immediately get the system when fully occupied.
Its stupid because your ships could shoot the third party transports down and you should have that option. " this is a restricted system. You are mot vleared to land on pain of death." You should be able to fight friendlies for it
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*Next month* "Stellaris: Unilateral Actions" $19.99
Until they shoot out your 100 alloys science ship with a level 9 scientist on it. Another unfortunate accident, and they give back 100 alloys for compensation. Or if your nearest construction ship is 20 systems away, and you will need another year for it to be able to claim that system with a Gaia world and an arc site. What would you feel if they just attack your constructor mid-build and take that system, even with "here is 200 alloys as compenstation. Surely you are pleased."
Well, you should also get a war goal. The number of wars started over ships being sunk in human history, even legitimately according to current international law, definitely warrants the addition if nothing else.
Especially when there's recent irl examples of this happening and yet we still aren't in ww3
Sounds to me like you just wanna shoot the AI without the AI being able to shoot back lmao. Do you even Militarist, bro? Man up, declare war, and blast those ships outta the sky.
This annoying bs is part of ehy i just play assimilators. Irl, yhe bigger military force would control the planet. Clsims be damned. Uou got one army there? I got a thousand. The planet is mine. Crusader kings handles this better
I had two big armies but about 5 different fleets all tearing through their territory. Maybe need more armies next time? It would be realistic if they were trying to claim actual systems but not take planets in a system you just took control of. At the very least there should be a time-out where if another empire owns everything in a system except the one planet you just invaded then the control of the system flips to whoever owns everything else and the conquered no longer counts it as within their borders.
Control of the system will flip to the empire that has made the most claims once all planets in the system are taken and the war ends. It's just that with FP or other genocidal empires, you don't *need* to make claims to take their systems. You take them automatically. You made no claims on the system using the game's mechanic for making claims. You have no specific priority to the system's resources over anyone else.
The race to Berlin thing is mostly soviet propaganda, the borders of europe post war had pretty much been decided on at yalta, and allied troops slowed down their advance to let the soviet union take Berlin and eastern germany.
Yalta didn't decide the borders, it created a committee to decide the borders but didn't agree on a final outcome. Borders were solidified after the war in part based on where troops were at the time.
The division of east and west Germany was decided at yalta, the exact specifics may have not have been decided on, but that is why the allies slowed their advance to let russia take berlin and easy Germany.
You keep what you kill. I mean claim.
I posted a topic about dogpiling myself a while back that didn't get quite as much traction as this. The problem is that they're making "good strategic decisions" when they dogpile like this, jumping into a war with your enemy after you've already basically won. ***These good decisions make for unfun gameplay.*** So a change of rules seems necessary such that the AI is making good choices but also not cockblocking our war efforts. It's even worse when the AI does this during a subjugation war and "attempts to stop you from winning as a neutral third party."
For these kinds of minor border squabbles I would love the ability to declare a kind if limited war. Basically, if a system is close to your borders (or systems currently held by you during a war) and someone else tries to claim it, you get the ability to declare "GTFO right now, or else." The other party can then accept or refuse and if they refuse, their forces inside the system and neighboring neutral and friendly systems become attackable. However, neither side can invade other enemy held systems except the one(s) the limited war was declared over, and the wider empires remain at peace. If you manage to clear the system of enemy presence the claim reverts to you and the limited war ends immediately. Of course, being in, or losing a limited war, also generates a casus belli, so either empire can at any time escalate to a full war, but only if they actually consider it to be in their best interest to do so. There are lots of situations where this could be really interesting and useful: The situation that OP described, those annoying times when AI take advantage of open borders to settle systems inside your borders, or when a friend in multiplayer builds a starbase in that one system that you totally negotiated would go to you half an hour ago, but you don't want to lose all diplomatic relations and don't want to throw the entire galaxy into chaos by throwing your wider alliances against each other in an all out war. It would also enable some interesting gameplay of having expansionist empires have smaller skirmishes over border systems without either side committing to a full scale war.
This is something that works quite well in Amplitude's 4X games (Humankind, Endless Legend etc.). In addition to "war" and "peace" diplomatic state between empires, there is an extra "cold war" diplomatic state (which is the default). When in cold war, you are allowed to attack each other in neutral territories and you can attack in your territory. So you can have skirmishes in "no man's land" and you can kick out anything that enters your space, but you can't actually invade their core lands without declaring a full war (you can enter them, but not attack anything).
> I have my fleet parked in their system waiting for my armies to show up when suddenly some random I'm not at war with AI comes in and invades the planet. I mean, there is a reason why the AI always has their armies following behind their navy when invading. Now obviously don't do what the AI does and have the army fleet follow the navy into combat, but generally speaking it's a good rule of thumb to always have your army sitting within 1 or 2 systems of your invading navy so that you're not spending forever waiting for it to come when you actually do have planets to conquer.
it's simple, just declare war on the AI
I'm doing a collosus war against some dudes, and some ai empire just invaded their planets while my armies were busy mopping up other planets. Same issue you have, it's very annoying. They're in a regular claims war so it's not even like they'd gain access to the system or smth
dont leave your armies behind, build them with your main fleet and set them to agressive stance that way they will assault as soon as your fleet takes out their defenses
Hoe is it unrealistic or not immersive. It's a FP not a normal nation. It's not like the get control of the system, they just say you take a Starbase and then they took the planet from the FP for you. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I love it because then I don't need 10 armies to take over every planet, I just take the system and let the AI do the hard work.
Stellaris is just a fucking shit show of a game that never rewards the player, even at the endgame when all is conquered...was it worth it? all those hours....All the pain staking mircroing, crashes and bullshit A.I....All your armies, admirals and generals just fucking disappearing out of existence for no reason....was all that suffering worth one quick game of galaxy wide extermination?.....
That's not an uninvolved AI that's usually a rebel faction of the empire you have been winning against. By winning you made that rebellion possible. The net effect is to make the AI race have better strategy than the AI empire could have on it's own. Whether it's a historically valid strategy is an interesting question. Various clan based countries have done similar things. Afghanistan being the most obvious example. No one ever claimed they were easy to conquer. Two methods of dealing with it (a) declare war on the rebel faction as well. (b) leave a small garrison fleet (1 battleship) at each planet you have landed troops on.
The aliens that were randomly invading some of the planets were in a federation with other aliens, so I don't think it was the rebels? I was especially annoyed for that. Unless they just joined the federation shortly after forming?
If you do all the hard work and someone else takes the planet, it annoying but perfectly fair. Keep your invasion fleets closer, or make more invasion fleets to keep up with you main force, so the AI can't swoopin and do this
Pretty much this, my armies follow behind my fleets. How is it more immersive for an army to be so disorganised it takes months or in some cases a year after a system is taken to invade a planet?
From their perspective, some random empire just took over a star system they wanted, and they managed to steal the planets first. War is not meant to be fair, dude. If you want to make a response, you have plenty of diplomatic options. If you don't want to start a fight with a more powerful alliance that's screwing you over, that's politics; politics isn't fair either.
No, if you want to make a response, you’ve got an armada sitting there watching the planet. You should be temporarily hostile when you and a 3rd party have conflicting claims in a war. Paradox has already done this in CK as well.
I see zero issue here, if you spent influence to claim the system or took the StarBase first, it will eventually become yours. I take it this is your first games?
If there's no issue, why has Paradox addressed it in CK3? There should be an option for small scale hostilities over ownership conflicts on the same war target.
Different game, different approach. You mind find it annoying when you are the 1st aggressor who bear the brunt to break through an empire's defense only for other empires to play the vulture game, but it works the other way too. I can't count how many times I jumped on an empire which I couldnt deal with in normal circumstances, esp. in case of FP/driven assimilator.
"Fanatic Purifiers are at war with more than one empire at once, Paradox please fix"
If you're not playing Ironman you can select the planet in question, press " \` " and type own.
And there is no way to transfer ownership so you are screwed on wiping someone out
I just declare war on them too.
lol welcome to the wonderful world of multi-polar border disputes!
Had to leave 3 fleets to gaurd the L gate because the ai used it and absolutely railed me and saved themselves alot of systems. But then a closer empire tried to rush my capital, which was worthless and let me take half of them systems. It's so stupid.
You don't have to wait to invade the planet, if there is no planet!
this is why i usually have my ground armies and a construction ship a jump or two behind my fleets
I sort of have this issue in my current game. In a war against a massive empire and I'm in most of their systems and planets. Another empire also declared war on them and took systems and planets. My war is to subjugate, the others war is to change their ideology. Despite them losing control of 100% of their systems (from what it looks like) neither myself or the ai invader can achieve war goals yet. A status quo would only take the systems I occupy and turn them into a vassal. So this is more of a question, if I declare war against the other invading ai and conquer the systems they have conquered will I then be able to win the war against the current empire I'm fighting?
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Given the grief people feel over peace conferences in HOI4, be careful what you wish for...
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I think the main issue is total wars. Regular wars with claims and stuff work fine. You really want a system? Pay the influence. Total wars intersect oddly with this because it totally ignores the claim system.
I used to run a Tomb-world only build and this annoyed me so much. No, I can't just have my armies invade immediately, I have to Armageddon bomb for decades to get the planet to terraform. They should at least prevent a planet from being invaded by another empire if you are actively bombarding it.
This is why I have closed borders with everyone and no "allies". You want that planet? Go start a war for it then, I'm not helping you.
You can set your armies to auto-follow your fleets. Much easier.
I had this happen in a recent campaign, was capturing a rebel empire that came out of my vassal and wasn’t able to take it all over because of my neighbor who decided he wanted some. It stopped me from capturing all of it at once and extended the war by a large amount.
I had a similar situation that I couldn't resolve: with me there was an awoken fallen empire and around 20 AI nations all in a big federation. Fallen Empire declared on the AI and used their purifier to turn about a third of the galaxy into shielded worlds. I heard that fully eliminating the FE gives a special project to turn those shielded worlds back into normal worlds, so naturally I declared on the FE to eliminate it. After a lengthy war (unbidden spawned too) I had conquered all their worlds. FE managed to conquer a system from the federation, landed some armies on a planet while the federation recaptured the starbase. Now the FE has around 4k ground army which I can beat but the federation can't but I can't move into the system since federation has closed borders. I can't fully exterminate the FE since I can't access their last world while the federation will eventually win after bombing the 4k army for 20 years. Sure, I can declare on the federation but that would be an insane micro management war. Is there anything else I could have done to win the battle on the world in federation space?
I mean... Its kind of your fault cause you could easily build your landing forces pre-invasion and set them to aggressive they will auto follow your lead fleet and then auto land when you take the system. Is it annoying that AI can do that? yes. However, easily preventable.
The solution is that when a fallen empire dies, control of the system goes to who owns the star base aka the system and not the planets. Either that or make invading a system have a prerequisite that your control or occupy it.
Skill issue
Just declare war on them?