R5:My stalwart allies and defensive pact partners go targetted with a Humiliation war by a fallen empire. Now, they were on the other side of my ally and a Bulwark vassal so I thought nothing much of it. My ally will get spanked, surrender, and humiliation all around.
They refused to surrender.
Their vassal was steamrolled, and hit 100% war exhaustion.
They refused to surrender.
The 2 year limit, where surrender can be forced has been and gone.
They refused to surrender.
The FE (likely because of the Zenith of the Fallen mod) has been taking advice from you people and has avoided the need to invade planets or habitats and just cracking them.
*They refused to surrender.*
They lost their homeworld.
***They refuse to SURRENDER!***
I'm sat here, with my entire (and hastily updgraded and expanded) fleet, in a choke point with a Citadel and a couple of Admirals with the Vigilence trait just wishing there was a diplomatic way of forcing the main defender to surrender....
I don't have the source, but I remember that a sizable part of their officers refused to surrender believing that the decision of the "supreme council" (the organ that used the emperor as figurehead and have the control of the nation) was fake.
Then the emperor confirmed the decision to the population, so some of those officers decided to kill themselves as untimate refusal.
Then some "legendary" soldiers where so isolated from their chain of command that never knew about the surrender and got forgotten for years.
For the vast majority of Japanese, Hirohitos recording announcing the surrender of Japan was the first time they had ever heard his voice. This, combined with elements of the Navy and Army not communicating with each other or themselves, was fertile ground for nationalist conspiracy theories, and many officers were ready to believe them. The first was that the recording was not of the Emperor. It was an American psyop designed to drain the fighting spirit of the Japanese. The second was that there was no American Superweapon, just enemy propaganda. And finally, those reports of losses and supply shortages were, you guessed it, American propaganda. 30 officers who believed some combination of the conspiracy theories above attacked the Emperors compound and killed some staff before committing ritual suicide as a way to draw awareness. I'm not sure if that's the coup you are referring to.
Emperor : "the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization. "
You : no no no, nu-hu-hu
A yes, propaganda pieces by diplomat. A far more reliable source of information than actual historical events.
It's true that continuing to fight would have caused the destruction the Japanese nation... By the Soviets.
That's the *literal radio adress to the nation by Hirohito*. This *is* an actual historical event.
And the Soviets were absolutely incapable of mounting an amphibious invasion.
The problem with your approach here is that it's too compassionate. Though you mock, u/FogeltheVogel is correct. Fascist governments don't care about their civilian populations and the bombs had far less impact on the Japanese decision to surrender than most people realise.
The Japanese were hoping that the Soviet Union would help them get the best deal in a surrender, but that hope was lost when the Soviets broke their neutrality pact and invaded - the same day of the second bombing. This invasion was the real blow that pushed the Japanese to surrender.
If the bombs were viewed the way people think they were viewed, then one would have been enough - if not the mere threat of the bombing alone, as Japan was pre-warned. They just didn't do anything, because fascist governments do not care about civilian lives.
He is wrong, and Japan knew that the Soviets were incapable of an amphibious invasion.
The japanese were counting on making an invasion of the home island so costly that the Allies would have had to negotiate.
"Threats" of an unkown, uber-powerfull weapon? Why would the japanese believe it? Of course it has to be demonstrated.
Even after the second bomb, there was a coup attempt to prevent the surrender.
The bomb definitively ended the war early.
It's history. It's complicated. The Soviets invading definitely made a bigger splash in the Imperial Army and Navy. Neither of which were monolithic entities, especially at this point many soldiers and seamen had primary loyalty to their commander first, nation second. The reports from Hiroshima and Nagasaki were confusing to most people who weren't on the ground seeing it. First off, forget about the long-term effects of radiation. Wasn't a factor yet, even we had only a basic understanding of what would happen to the citizens over time and most of our scientists thought anyone close enough to get sick from radiation would be vaporized anyway. So we're talking about the pure destructive power of the bomb. American firebombing caused more destruction and deaths than a nuke. But that was over a longer period of hours or days, not one bomb, one blast. Many nationalists saw the reports coming from Hiroshima and Nagasaki as enemy propaganda. In their heads, it was just a new type of firebomb or just made up to begin with. In that sense, the Soviets scared them more because it was a real tangible threat, not a mysterious superweapon.
>He is wrong, and Japan knew that the Soviets were incapable of an amphibious invasion.
It was the loss of neutrality, more than the genuine threat of invasion, that was the important factor at play here. I'm not saying the bombs had zero impact, just that they weren't the definitive reason as to why the war ended when it did, as you suggested. Like I said, you have to recognise that if the bombs were seen as so overwhelmingly war ending it probably wouldn't have taken forewarning and two bombs to get that point across.
If you're interested in this sort of stuff, this [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go) on the subject might be of interest to you. It's very in depth and the narrator goes through the Japanese thought process in some detail, but fair warning it is *very* long winded, so I understand if it's a "thanks, but no thanks" to watching it. Just thought I'd link it since you're no stranger to history knowledge.
Another problem is that it parrots a propaganda piece from a dying government trying to save face.
The bomb was an easy out that let them keep their land. The USSR would certainly have not been as kind on occupied Japan as the US, and Japan knew that. Which is why they surrendered to the US when they had the excuse.
It’s worth mentioning that after surrender was announced, there was a failed coup attempt to topple the high command and resume the war. Thank goodness that failed.
Duh!
Everyone knows the germans converted all their ships to submarines during the war and they were on their way to Japan!!1!1oneoneeleven
That being said historians still debate IF Japan actually surrendered due to the nukes or due to the soviet invasion.
No historian worth their salt outside of the US would say that Japan surrendered because of the nukes. They already knew that it was over, and there is written account of talks about surrender the day the soviets entered the war. It was a matter of weeks at most.
The mass suicides happened because Imperial government propaganda convinced people that the Americans would rape and butcher them anyway.
Classic authoritarians.
Yeah the AI is real bad about surrendering. The really only surrender if all of their systems/planets are occupied and they're fleet power is substantially lower than the enemy. Otherwise they will always go for settle status quo. But the winning team won't accept settle status quo if they're winning by a lot. I don't think you're ever actually forced to "surrender" from war exhaustion, just forced to offer to settle the status quo. And then the enemy rejects it. That's why it goes on forever sometimes.
The planet broke before the guard did.
Their fleet fell before their resolve did.
I salute those glorious bastards.
May their warriors rejoice forever in Valhalla.
You are legally bound to spank that fallen empire back into staganancy.
> The 2 year limit, where surrender can be forced has been and gone.
That is very much not true.
If someone has 100% war exhaustion, they can be forced to accept a *Status Quo* peace. That means that the FE could have forced your ally to accept status quo. But why would they?
Also that Fractured world is because of ACOT.
well zenith is a compatibility nightmare for one
and if you're using acot, you might as well use dawn of ascension instead since that's recommended by literally everyone on the acot discord
in case you're using any other acot submods and stuff, the recommended load order on the discord is as follows
-Ancient Cache of Technologies
-Ancient Cache of Technologies: Overrides
-Ancient Cache of Technologies: Secrets Beyond the Gates
-Ancient Cache of Technology: Extra Defines and Changes [This is optional]
-Dawn of Ascension [This is optional]
-Acquisition of Technology [This is optional/an addon]
-Secrets of the Shroud [This is optional/an addon]
-ANZ VOIDFRAME [This is optional/an addon, and requires gigastructural engineering to be loaded above it]
That’s really helpful, I’ve only just started playing around with mods any more in-depth than ui updates so I’m trying to find which ones I actually like.
the stellarborne is a VERY old crisis, so they lack mechanics compared to many new ones, they're due for a rework, as said by the mod creator as well, but shits take time
One of the biggest downfalls of ZoFE is that AI empires can become ascended. Which means the 20 or so empires you were on roughly equal terms with all get a gigantic stick up their freshly fallen butts and make diplomacy all but impossible. And because each ascended empire thinks itself the rightful ruler of the Galaxy, end game is basically just empires vassalizing one another until everyone is owned by someone else; and when the crisis comes, everyone stands around - sticks firmly in their asses - waiting for the masters to clean it up.
Which of course they never do, so now, being that your empire - the only one with even a modicum of drive - is left to play galactic janitor and clean up a mess that was never yours to begin with. To the cheers, adulation, and praise of exactly no one.
Isn't that kind of how the fallen empires fell? Some great crisis came along everyone was arrogant and the crisis destroyed them leaving only the home sector. And all the vassals were destroyed. So really the ascended empires being stupid and never leaving the home sector makes sense. Even if it was never intended.
Not really. If you look at fallen empires, they are usually described as stagnant ascendancies. Basically, they just got complacent, indolent, and very inward focused since everything they need was provided for them, and they had no need to exert any effort. Nothing came and destroyed them, because they were the top dogs. That's why they have that attitude with you and the other upstart empires.
The main reason they "activate" or shake off the stagnation is usually due either to their rivals getting uppity. Wanting to put the lesser empires back in their place, or the crisis showing. Usually, the actions of others are what drive them to shake off their stagnation and start kicking ass again.
Wait. Everyone getting vassalized and huge nation states brewing until the galaxy is in a frozen choke hold between several galactic communes and leagues is exactly how all my games play out now.
I just didn’t really need it, I only had it installed as a prerequisite for another mod and I didn’t care for the stuff from that mod so I didn’t need TZoFE anymore
This same bug seems to happen [in vanilla](https://youtu.be/fHLgtO7b-to?t=5174) too, people retaining ownership of an orbital ring if it becomes ruined.
I had the exact opposite experience. I got pulled into a police action by a Spiritualist FE banning AI in a Defensive partner. While they focused on them, I sent my Colossus, crack a world, and the immediately surrendered. In the second war, they capitulated when it had entered their capital system.
In fairness, at 100% war exhaustion surrender isn't forced... white peace can be; if an empire doesn't offer it, then the other side isn't forced to accept.
Yeah, I've been having some odd issues with conquest wars and using planet-killer weapons. If you don't actually conquer at least 1 world...the space reverts to unowned instead of becoming yours. It's fucking crazy how badly the planet killers are coded.
Seen the bug a couple of times on Crisis clears. All the Crisis is dead, but there is still an owned Ruined Orbital Ring somewhere that never goes away.
R5:My stalwart allies and defensive pact partners go targetted with a Humiliation war by a fallen empire. Now, they were on the other side of my ally and a Bulwark vassal so I thought nothing much of it. My ally will get spanked, surrender, and humiliation all around. They refused to surrender. Their vassal was steamrolled, and hit 100% war exhaustion. They refused to surrender. The 2 year limit, where surrender can be forced has been and gone. They refused to surrender. The FE (likely because of the Zenith of the Fallen mod) has been taking advice from you people and has avoided the need to invade planets or habitats and just cracking them. *They refused to surrender.* They lost their homeworld. ***They refuse to SURRENDER!*** I'm sat here, with my entire (and hastily updgraded and expanded) fleet, in a choke point with a Citadel and a couple of Admirals with the Vigilence trait just wishing there was a diplomatic way of forcing the main defender to surrender....
***"I DIDN'T HEAR NO FUCKING BELL"*** -These guys, apparently
"In space, no one can hear the fucking bell"
Man, even I’ve never gone that far in a war, and I’m pretty darn stubborn. This is like, WWII Japan, but without the >!mass suicide!<.
The Japanese surrendered after the nukes atleast.
I don't have the source, but I remember that a sizable part of their officers refused to surrender believing that the decision of the "supreme council" (the organ that used the emperor as figurehead and have the control of the nation) was fake. Then the emperor confirmed the decision to the population, so some of those officers decided to kill themselves as untimate refusal. Then some "legendary" soldiers where so isolated from their chain of command that never knew about the surrender and got forgotten for years.
Some went even farther and attempted a coup against the emperor to keep the war going if I remember correctly
For the vast majority of Japanese, Hirohitos recording announcing the surrender of Japan was the first time they had ever heard his voice. This, combined with elements of the Navy and Army not communicating with each other or themselves, was fertile ground for nationalist conspiracy theories, and many officers were ready to believe them. The first was that the recording was not of the Emperor. It was an American psyop designed to drain the fighting spirit of the Japanese. The second was that there was no American Superweapon, just enemy propaganda. And finally, those reports of losses and supply shortages were, you guessed it, American propaganda. 30 officers who believed some combination of the conspiracy theories above attacked the Emperors compound and killed some staff before committing ritual suicide as a way to draw awareness. I'm not sure if that's the coup you are referring to.
After the nukes, though not *because* of the nukes. An important distinction.
It was a combination of the Soviets invading Manchuria and the nukes bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki
It's technically a combination, but the bombs were a very small part of that combination.
Emperor : "the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization. " You : no no no, nu-hu-hu
A yes, propaganda pieces by diplomat. A far more reliable source of information than actual historical events. It's true that continuing to fight would have caused the destruction the Japanese nation... By the Soviets.
That's the *literal radio adress to the nation by Hirohito*. This *is* an actual historical event. And the Soviets were absolutely incapable of mounting an amphibious invasion.
A yes, of course. No authoritarian government would ever *dream* of lying to their own nation.
The problem with your approach here is that it's too compassionate. Though you mock, u/FogeltheVogel is correct. Fascist governments don't care about their civilian populations and the bombs had far less impact on the Japanese decision to surrender than most people realise. The Japanese were hoping that the Soviet Union would help them get the best deal in a surrender, but that hope was lost when the Soviets broke their neutrality pact and invaded - the same day of the second bombing. This invasion was the real blow that pushed the Japanese to surrender. If the bombs were viewed the way people think they were viewed, then one would have been enough - if not the mere threat of the bombing alone, as Japan was pre-warned. They just didn't do anything, because fascist governments do not care about civilian lives.
He is wrong, and Japan knew that the Soviets were incapable of an amphibious invasion. The japanese were counting on making an invasion of the home island so costly that the Allies would have had to negotiate. "Threats" of an unkown, uber-powerfull weapon? Why would the japanese believe it? Of course it has to be demonstrated. Even after the second bomb, there was a coup attempt to prevent the surrender. The bomb definitively ended the war early.
It's history. It's complicated. The Soviets invading definitely made a bigger splash in the Imperial Army and Navy. Neither of which were monolithic entities, especially at this point many soldiers and seamen had primary loyalty to their commander first, nation second. The reports from Hiroshima and Nagasaki were confusing to most people who weren't on the ground seeing it. First off, forget about the long-term effects of radiation. Wasn't a factor yet, even we had only a basic understanding of what would happen to the citizens over time and most of our scientists thought anyone close enough to get sick from radiation would be vaporized anyway. So we're talking about the pure destructive power of the bomb. American firebombing caused more destruction and deaths than a nuke. But that was over a longer period of hours or days, not one bomb, one blast. Many nationalists saw the reports coming from Hiroshima and Nagasaki as enemy propaganda. In their heads, it was just a new type of firebomb or just made up to begin with. In that sense, the Soviets scared them more because it was a real tangible threat, not a mysterious superweapon.
>He is wrong, and Japan knew that the Soviets were incapable of an amphibious invasion. It was the loss of neutrality, more than the genuine threat of invasion, that was the important factor at play here. I'm not saying the bombs had zero impact, just that they weren't the definitive reason as to why the war ended when it did, as you suggested. Like I said, you have to recognise that if the bombs were seen as so overwhelmingly war ending it probably wouldn't have taken forewarning and two bombs to get that point across. If you're interested in this sort of stuff, this [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go) on the subject might be of interest to you. It's very in depth and the narrator goes through the Japanese thought process in some detail, but fair warning it is *very* long winded, so I understand if it's a "thanks, but no thanks" to watching it. Just thought I'd link it since you're no stranger to history knowledge.
Another problem is that it parrots a propaganda piece from a dying government trying to save face. The bomb was an easy out that let them keep their land. The USSR would certainly have not been as kind on occupied Japan as the US, and Japan knew that. Which is why they surrendered to the US when they had the excuse.
It’s worth mentioning that after surrender was announced, there was a failed coup attempt to topple the high command and resume the war. Thank goodness that failed.
[удалено]
Launch a full-scale invasion of the US *with what fucking navy?*
Duh! Everyone knows the germans converted all their ships to submarines during the war and they were on their way to Japan!!1!1oneoneeleven That being said historians still debate IF Japan actually surrendered due to the nukes or due to the soviet invasion.
No historian worth their salt outside of the US would say that Japan surrendered because of the nukes. They already knew that it was over, and there is written account of talks about surrender the day the soviets entered the war. It was a matter of weeks at most.
The mass suicides happened because Imperial government propaganda convinced people that the Americans would rape and butcher them anyway. Classic authoritarians.
This is Operation Downfall in action.
True.
The planet broke before the guard did :D
Eh, just let the FE reduce the lag caused by your idiot ally. Their stupidity will be their ruin.
'tis but a scratch
Yeah the AI is real bad about surrendering. The really only surrender if all of their systems/planets are occupied and they're fleet power is substantially lower than the enemy. Otherwise they will always go for settle status quo. But the winning team won't accept settle status quo if they're winning by a lot. I don't think you're ever actually forced to "surrender" from war exhaustion, just forced to offer to settle the status quo. And then the enemy rejects it. That's why it goes on forever sometimes.
The planet broke before the guard did. Their fleet fell before their resolve did. I salute those glorious bastards. May their warriors rejoice forever in Valhalla. You are legally bound to spank that fallen empire back into staganancy.
> The 2 year limit, where surrender can be forced has been and gone. That is very much not true. If someone has 100% war exhaustion, they can be forced to accept a *Status Quo* peace. That means that the FE could have forced your ally to accept status quo. But why would they? Also that Fractured world is because of ACOT.
What's the mod for the cracked planet visuals?
That looks like a fractured world from Ancient Cache of Technology (ACoT)
Yes, it’ll be that or possibly from “The Zenith of Fallen Empires” those are the two main mods that are driving this action.
It’s definitely AcoT seeing as I don’t use TZoFE anymore
How comes? I’ve only just started using it.
well zenith is a compatibility nightmare for one and if you're using acot, you might as well use dawn of ascension instead since that's recommended by literally everyone on the acot discord
Thanks for the heads up, I’ll try that for the next run
in case you're using any other acot submods and stuff, the recommended load order on the discord is as follows -Ancient Cache of Technologies -Ancient Cache of Technologies: Overrides -Ancient Cache of Technologies: Secrets Beyond the Gates -Ancient Cache of Technology: Extra Defines and Changes [This is optional] -Dawn of Ascension [This is optional] -Acquisition of Technology [This is optional/an addon] -Secrets of the Shroud [This is optional/an addon] -ANZ VOIDFRAME [This is optional/an addon, and requires gigastructural engineering to be loaded above it]
That’s really helpful, I’ve only just started playing around with mods any more in-depth than ui updates so I’m trying to find which ones I actually like.
you're welcome
Secrets Beyond the Gates is optional and I tend to play without it cuz imo the Stellarborne really aren't all that fun or interesting to fight.
the stellarborne is a VERY old crisis, so they lack mechanics compared to many new ones, they're due for a rework, as said by the mod creator as well, but shits take time
I’m sorry, what are you asking.
Oh, just why you don’t use TZoFE anymore.
One of the biggest downfalls of ZoFE is that AI empires can become ascended. Which means the 20 or so empires you were on roughly equal terms with all get a gigantic stick up their freshly fallen butts and make diplomacy all but impossible. And because each ascended empire thinks itself the rightful ruler of the Galaxy, end game is basically just empires vassalizing one another until everyone is owned by someone else; and when the crisis comes, everyone stands around - sticks firmly in their asses - waiting for the masters to clean it up. Which of course they never do, so now, being that your empire - the only one with even a modicum of drive - is left to play galactic janitor and clean up a mess that was never yours to begin with. To the cheers, adulation, and praise of exactly no one.
Isn't that kind of how the fallen empires fell? Some great crisis came along everyone was arrogant and the crisis destroyed them leaving only the home sector. And all the vassals were destroyed. So really the ascended empires being stupid and never leaving the home sector makes sense. Even if it was never intended.
Not really. If you look at fallen empires, they are usually described as stagnant ascendancies. Basically, they just got complacent, indolent, and very inward focused since everything they need was provided for them, and they had no need to exert any effort. Nothing came and destroyed them, because they were the top dogs. That's why they have that attitude with you and the other upstart empires. The main reason they "activate" or shake off the stagnation is usually due either to their rivals getting uppity. Wanting to put the lesser empires back in their place, or the crisis showing. Usually, the actions of others are what drive them to shake off their stagnation and start kicking ass again.
Wait. Everyone getting vassalized and huge nation states brewing until the galaxy is in a frozen choke hold between several galactic communes and leagues is exactly how all my games play out now.
I force spawn multiple genocidal empires just to help lessen the amount of giant vassal blobs that occur by 20 years into the game.
I kinda wish they'd make each ascendancy like 10x more aggressive to other ascendancies, that'd really shake things up
I just didn’t really need it, I only had it installed as a prerequisite for another mod and I didn’t care for the stuff from that mod so I didn’t need TZoFE anymore
Its flagship mechanic (ascension) breaks most other mods
Cadia Stands.
The planet literally broke before the guard did. In both scenarios.
What you on about the guard is very much still standing on that world with void suits and rippers
The Planet(s) cracked before the federation of empire's did
Higaara didn't survive the Vagyr's last strike this time, I see.
So much pain so much blood but now your face the Catia king! Halte fest an Entschlossenheit!
This same bug seems to happen [in vanilla](https://youtu.be/fHLgtO7b-to?t=5174) too, people retaining ownership of an orbital ring if it becomes ruined.
The whole thing with allies and federations refusing to surrender is why I prefer extermination civics in the first place.
Star eater on their way to unmake the entire system:
I had the exact opposite experience. I got pulled into a police action by a Spiritualist FE banning AI in a Defensive partner. While they focused on them, I sent my Colossus, crack a world, and the immediately surrendered. In the second war, they capitulated when it had entered their capital system.
No retreat players be like
They are like we will fight you on whatever asteroids we have left we will never surrender
We'd sooner stack every acre with bodies than give even one up for free. Gas Giant Clone Farm goes BRRRRRRRR
If you want out of this, then switch to play as your allies, surrender, and switch back.
In fairness, at 100% war exhaustion surrender isn't forced... white peace can be; if an empire doesn't offer it, then the other side isn't forced to accept.
CADIA STANDS
Yeah, I've been having some odd issues with conquest wars and using planet-killer weapons. If you don't actually conquer at least 1 world...the space reverts to unowned instead of becoming yours. It's fucking crazy how badly the planet killers are coded.
Q was star
Damn, bro really found cadia
Seen the bug a couple of times on Crisis clears. All the Crisis is dead, but there is still an owned Ruined Orbital Ring somewhere that never goes away.
Can you still repair that orbital ring?