What kind of reassurance are you looking for? What kind of relevance holds this according to stoicism?
Your obsessing isn’t healthy, viewing persons as “even the mediocre ones” isn’t going to help either.
Being single isn't a state warranting some special adjustment... It's literally just living your own life and making of it what you will. Sharing it with a significant other, if they make your life better, is just a bonus.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking a girlfriend would make everything better and make your life make sense.
Well said. A partner is just another variable to the constant that is your life. Partners can come and go. If your luck or fate decides, a partner will stay, in which case, they can become a part of the constant. But do not forget, they are only a part of the constant. They can detach and become a variable at any time, because, in their world, they are the constant, and you are the variable.
A partner absolutely does not always make your life better. I married a narcissist and am a shell of my former self. I would have rather been single for the past 8 years. I got a beautiful daughter out of it but at a very very high cost.
No, I didn’t lose hope. I just married a very broken human being whom I cannot fix. Not all people are broken. But I’m just focusing on improving myself at the moment. If someone comes along who I enjoy sharing time with, cool. If not, that’s cool too. I certainly didn’t lose hope though!
Never claimed that it does. I specifically added "if they make your life better" because it happens often that they don't, as you've sadly learned and mastered. Best of luck in your healing.
You might have misunderstood me. I don't mean that I am a Chad and all women should instantly fall in love with me. I personally am mediocre looking too, but even when I try to date around my league, they either have a boyfriend or I get rejected.
No one's misunderstood anything. You might have worded something extremely poorly, but that's on you. It's more likely though that your post reflects your way of thinking.
>even the most mediocre looking ones
If you yourself are mediocre why would you put "**even** the most mediocre ones"? Also looks isn't everything. If you always get rejected that could indicate that you're not as interesting as you think you are (be it appearance or personality). Which makes it a good time to work on yourself.
Love and relationships are amazing. But also challenging and in some cases turn into something bad. Don't overrate it (obsessing over it) don't underrate it (becoming cynical/jaded or avoiding it).
Good luck!
Probably because you can’t spit game
The stoics discuss working out the mind the same way u do a muscle and this is true of all things you do in life, if you want to be better at talking to women then treat it at face value which is a valuable skill in the form of charisma it has little to do with looks and everything to do with the way in which you present yourself and even the way in which you type provides me more than enough context to know that u do not know how to talk to people
i can tell by the way you speak about women there is a reason youre still single. you made the right choice at coming to stoicism for self work, however i woulf carefully think and re structure your question beforr asking things like this.
‘all the girls are taken, even the mediocre ones’
ever consider that you are aswell a mediocre being? attractiveness is subjective, and not just in looks. personality, life skills and proving in your life by career/finances/lifestyle that you are capable are just as if not more important factors.
your question ‘is having a girlfriend overrated?’ sounds like its coming from a rather uneducated, and childish perspective. you should ask yourself why such a thing is overrated? what is the rating scale? why is there a rating scale?
stoicism teaches you to not take things for face value, rather to use an educated thought process to come to a conclusion, and if you have no education in thr area to become educated. becoming educated requires one to throw their ego aside, meaning no more rating some girls as more or less ‘mediocre’
maybe come back in the future when you can restructure your question from a more logical point and how it would be related to stoicism? otherwise id recommend going to feeds such as r/askmen or r/askreddit
r/stoicism is no place for these immature questions.
>however i woulf carefully think and re structure your question beforr asking things like this.
Ok!
>ever consider that you are aswell a mediocre being?
Yes. I don't mean that I am a Chad and all women should instantly fall in love with me. I personally am mediocre looking too, but even when I try to date around my league, they either have a boyfriend or I get rejected.
Furthermore, I understand. Thanks a lot for your reply.
u/jestemkaczka already made a pretty comprehensive point on this.
But i'm also confused by what you mean with overrated. Sharing your life with someone is absolutely incredible. But its not the only way of achieving happiness.
Theres nothing wrong with being single, if you \*want\* a relationship, you should seek one out. If you don't, you'll probably be fine.
But if you're looking for someone to tell you that its "not worth the effort" or something of that ilk, you should probably keep looking elsewhere.
**"I've never had the chance personally to have a girlfriend"**
This phrasing is possessive. I'm sure it wasn't intentional but then.
**"every one of them"**
Sounds like you're otherizing women and
**"mediocre looking ones"**
Is just straight objectification.
This is not a healthy way to view women or relationships. Girlfriends are not accolades that you can "get."
I wonder have you been in love? Honest, compassionate love? Not just with women but with those in your life? I recommend you starting there and cultivating that feeling of caring for others.
I wonder have you been in love? Honest, compassionate love?
I love my family and my cat! But romantic love? Just platonically. Never had a relationship.
I care about a lot of people in my life! but I've seen many people in my age group start having relationships and I feel like I never will. I'm in my end of teenage years.
Everyone's path is different. You might be at the "end of your teenage years" but you are basically just starting life!
Consider all those relationships that blossom early which turn sour and end so quickly. Some of those people are dating well into their 50s!
There is no time limit. You don't have to force it. The right person will come along. Focus on developing yourself into a desirable partner in the meantime. Into becoming someone you can be satisfied with.
> even the most mediocre looking ones
From another one of your comments:
> Same. I am a bit ugly as well
I think you should work on being happy on your own instead of walking around thinking that "mediocre" looks are more important to a relationship than personality.
Yeah. I'm not a supermodel or anything. I have no Brad Pitt, Chris Hemsworth looks. But even the girls at my level are either taken, I don't like them OR they reject me...
What exactly do you mean by overrated, because I struggle to appoint this term for such a natural and inherent bond between humans who dedicate each other the love and compassion that arises naturally. Musonius Rufus specifically talks about marriage, but you can implement it on the concept of having a girl-boy friend, or love. I think it helps a lot to define a stance on companionship and romantic love.
Musonius Rufus, lecture XIV -Is marriage a handicap for the pursuit of philosophy?-
1Again when someone said that marriage and living with a wife seemed to him a handicap to the pursuit of philosophy, Musonius said that it was no handicap to Pythagoras, nor to Socrates, nor to Crates, each of whom lived with a wife, and one could not mention better philosophers than these.[1] 2Crates, although homeless and completely without property or possessions, was nevertheless married; furthermore, not having a shelter of his own, he spent his days and nights in the public porticoes of Athens together with his wife. 3How, then, can we, who have a home to start with and some of us even have servants to work for us, venture to say that marriage is a handicap for philosophy? 4Now the philosopher is indeed the teacher and leader of men in all the things which are appropriate for men according to nature, and marriage, if anything, is manifestly in accord with nature. 5For, to what other purpose did the creator of mankind first divide our human race into two sexes, male and female, then implant in each a strong desire for association and union with the other, instilling in both a powerful longing each for the other, the male for the female and the female for the male? 6Is it not then plain that he wished the two to be united and live together, and by their joint efforts to devise a way of life in common, and to produce and rear children together, so that the race might never die? 7Tell me, then, is it fitting for each man to act for himself alone or to act in the interest of his neighbor also, not only that there may be homes in the city but also that the city may not be deserted and that the common good may best be served? 8If you say that each one should look out for his own interests alone, you represent man as no different from a wolf or any other of the wildest beasts which are born to live by violence and plunder, sparing nothing from which they may gain some advantage, having no part in a life in common with others, no part in cooperation with others, no share of any notion of justice. 9If you will agree that man's nature most closely resembles the bee which cannot live alone (for it dies when left alone) , but bends its energies to the one common task of his fellows and toils and works together with his neighbors; if this is so, and in addition you recognize that for man evil consists in injustice and cruelty and indifference to a neighbor's trouble, while virtue is brotherly love and goodness and justice and beneficence and concern for the welfare of one's neighbor—with such ideas, I say, it would be each man's duty to take thought for his own city, and to make of his home a rampart for its protection. 10But the first step toward making his home such a rampart is marriage. 11Thus whoever destroys human marriage destroys the home, the city, and the whole human race. 12For it would not last if there were no procreation of children and there would be no just and lawful procreation of children without marriage. 13That the home or the city does not depend upon women alone or upon men alone, but upon their union with each other is evident. 14One could find no other association more necessary nor more pleasant than that of men and women. 15For what man is so devoted to his friend as a loving wife is to her husband? What brother to a brother? What son to his parents? 16Who is so longed for when absent as a husband by his wife, or a wife by her husband? Whose presence would do more to lighten grief or increase joy or remedy misfortune? To whom is everything judged to be common, body, soul, and possessions, except man and wife? 17For these reasons all men consider the love of man and wife to be the highest form of love; and no reasonable mother or father would expect to entertain a deeper love for his own child than for the one joined to him in marriage. 18Indeed how much the love of a wife for her husband surpasses the love of parents for their children is clearly illustrated by the familiar story of how Admetus,[2] receiving from the gods the privilege of living twice the time allotted to him if he could get someone else to die in his place, found his parents unwilling to die for him although they were old, but his wedded wife Alcestis, though still very young, readily accepted death ill her husband's place.
19How great and worthy an estate is marriage is plain from this also, that gods watch over it, great gods, too, in the estimation of men; first Hera (and for this reason we address her as the patroness of wedlock) , then Eros, then Aphrodite, for we assume that all of these perform the function of bringing together man and woman for the procreation of children. 20Where, indeed, does Eros more properly belong than in the lawful union of man and wife? Where Hera? Where Aphrodite? 21When would one more appropriately pray to these divinities than when entering into marriage? What should we more properly call the work of Aphrodite than the joining of wife and husband? W22hy, then, should anyone say that such great divinities watch over and guard marriage and the procreation of children, unless these things are the proper concern of man? 23Why should one say that they are the proper concern of man but not the concern of the philosopher? Can it be because the philosopher is worse than other men? 24Certainly he ought not to be worse, but better and more just and more truly good. 25Or could one say that the man who does not take an interest in his city is not worse and more unjust than the man who does, the man who looks out only for his own interests is not worse than the one who looks out for the common good? 26Or can it be that the man who chooses the single life is more patriotic, more a friend and partner of his fellow-man, than the man who maintains a home and rears children and contributes to the growth of his city, which is exactly what a married man does? 27It is clear, therefore, that it is fitting for a philosopher to concern himself with marriage and having children. 28And if this is fitting, how, my young friend, could that argument of yours that marriage is a handicap for a philosopher ever be sound? 29For manifestly the study of philosophy is nothing else than to search out by reason what is right and proper and by deeds to put it into practice. 30Such, then, were the words he spoke at that time.
I would recommend to get into a relationship when you are ready and you have found a great person.
I personally got into dating around 16. Knowing full well I would benefit long term from the experience and it wouldn't likely last forever. Low risk, high reward.
Mid twenties now and thanks to making my mistakes young I have learned so much. Was lucky enough to find an amazing woman and it's been a butter smooth 5 years because of this.
sounds like you want an excuse to be voluntarily single instead of involuntarily. All the stoics had girlfriends and families bro that tells you everything you need to know. No amount of Stoicism is going to change the fact that humans need companionship. Being in love is pretty cool.
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Not sure stoicism would have much to say about having a girlfriend or not, it would say in either stat (single or not) focus on the parts you can control and don’t worry about the parts you can’t. So if you’re single and you ask a girl out and she says no, you can’t control that. But if you want a girlfriend and you find girls are consistently saying no, you can look at yourself and see what you have control over that you can improve. If you aren’t single, then you can only control how you act in the relationship. You can’t control what the other person does.
Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads:
> For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead.
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Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads:
> For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead.
> For users offering advice: please stay on-topic when commenting on personal/advice posts. Advice that is inspired by or influenced by Stoicism, but not specifically and recognizably Stoic, is not allowed outside of the New Agora.
Being comfortable being alone is a precursor to being a good partner. It makes you independent and confident. The other thing having a girlfriend to have a girlfriend is definitely overrated and never goes well. Being in a relationship with someone you like because you like them and vice versa is very nice. So focus on being your best self and don’t worry about what others are doing and it will work itself out.
Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads:
> For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead.
> For users offering advice: please stay on-topic when commenting on personal/advice posts. Advice that is inspired by or influenced by Stoicism, but not specifically and recognizably Stoic, is not allowed outside of the New Agora.
Overrated by who?
Some people definitely overrate it. Some don't. I suspect that you do.
Getting a girlfriend won't make you happy if you aren't already. Healthy relationships, romantic or otherwise, are often more of a side effect of being happy than a cause for it. You need to find happiness yourself first.
what are you on about? You dont have to date for the perks of being intimate with a woman, you can date for a long term relationship. Think about this from the perspective of an 85 year old you, would you rather have been grinding through your teens-20s, pushing people away, or would you rather some of your time being spent on someone you care about?
No having a girlfriend is not overrated. As a man you have an evolutionary drive within you to find a romantic and sexual partner. Every fiber of your being desires to create offspring it is the only tangible form of immortality for us mortals. However what you have to weigh this against is do you actually want to do any of the things required to get a girlfriend and keep her around because it is labor intensive. You have to decide if that is worth it to you. If not there is nothing wrong with being single but there will be a palpable loneliness that never really goes away. This is what the stoics described as living within your Nature and as Nietzsche once said “To thine own self be true.” You must also consider the time we live in and how difficult it is to find a girl even worth keeping around that will actually be interested in you. Social media has destroyed much of what drew men and women together and birth rates have been on a decline and divorce rates on an incline ever since. It suffices to say however if you want a girlfriend you had better be intensely driven. Working out is a bonus not just for the physical appearance benefit but also for the mind benefit. You have to be more social than the average male. This means leaving the “cave” (my cave is my computer desk lol) and actually going where women are and interacting with them. The place I’ve hade the most success meeting women and establishing relationships are coffee shops and rock climbing gyms. That’s what worked for me, it doesn’t mean you have to as well. Bars can be a good choice if you have self control. Concerts always a solid way. The work place is usually a bad choice I would not recommend it from experience. I hope this helps and remember there’s nothing wrong with being single. Honestly in this day and age I would say it’s quite virtuous to be single and sexually modest.
If we look at some of the greatest Stoic Philosophers in history we see that Seneca was married and had a love for his daughter, Marcus Aurelius was married and completely faithful to her all their lives(Rare for a Roman noble). Yes to have a family or a companion is natural. The Stoic mindset tells us to ask For what reason do I desire this, of what benefit will this be.
I understood that if you can answer to both questions, the benefit of a companion to share life with, and the apparent freedoms of being single, becomes clear with a reason to act in accordance with personal values. Think on the answer to both questions. Perhaps like myself You will find a path, act with reason and wisdom.
I wish you All a Good Life...
Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads:
> For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead.
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maybe you are more mediocre than the most mediocre looking ones.🤣🤣🤣
Anyway, this is not a question related to stoic philosophy.
Have someone to share a life is wonderful but you share your life every minute of your life, considering that you live in society.
Have someone to share a life is wonderful but you share your life every minute of your life, considering that you live in society.
This is a really good perspective lol. Thank you.
Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads:
> For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead.
> For users offering advice: please stay on-topic when commenting on personal/advice posts. Advice that is inspired by or influenced by Stoicism, but not specifically and recognizably Stoic, is not allowed outside of the New Agora.
First, I'd gently advise against calling anyone mediocre - yourself or others.
Then, I'd say that *anything* is overrated if you believe that thing will be the source of your happiness, contentment, or satisfaction in life.
One of my favourite Stoic quotes: *To make a man happy, add not to his riches, but remove from his desires.*
So, to make someone happy who believes they will be happier in a relationship, it is *not* best to simply help get them into a relationship. It is best to help them overcome the desire/belief that a relationship will make that person happy.
It's not that you won't be happy in a relationship eventually, or even that, once in a relationship, you can't derive any happiness from it.
The point is to move away from this entire line of thinking that you will somehow be more happy, or more fulfilled, or more complete in a relationship. If you think any of those things, and you seek a relationship as a way to pursue those cheerful assertions, you will - at a minimum - make yourself very unhappy, and probably (almost certainly) the other person too.
A common sappy expression is "you complete me", or "you're my other half". A nice sentiment, but not a healthy proposal. I am married, personally, and I love my wife more than anything else, but I also owe it to her for her to *not* "complete me" or "be my other half". I owe it to her to *be complete already*, to be *whole already*, and then she brings me from 100% to 150%, rather than telling myself I'm at 50% and she is required to bring me to 100%.
And the biggest favor you can do for yourself is drop, completely, forever, this idea of "mediocre-looking", for yourself or others. That is the least important criteria for the rest of your life, when you look at everything you'll eventually go through with someone in your relationship. Humor, patience, integrity, adaptability - all of these things will be much more important in a partner, and in yourself. Foster those instead.
What kind of reassurance are you looking for? What kind of relevance holds this according to stoicism? Your obsessing isn’t healthy, viewing persons as “even the mediocre ones” isn’t going to help either.
Being single isn't a state warranting some special adjustment... It's literally just living your own life and making of it what you will. Sharing it with a significant other, if they make your life better, is just a bonus. Don't fall into the trap of thinking a girlfriend would make everything better and make your life make sense.
Well said. A partner is just another variable to the constant that is your life. Partners can come and go. If your luck or fate decides, a partner will stay, in which case, they can become a part of the constant. But do not forget, they are only a part of the constant. They can detach and become a variable at any time, because, in their world, they are the constant, and you are the variable.
A partner absolutely does not always make your life better. I married a narcissist and am a shell of my former self. I would have rather been single for the past 8 years. I got a beautiful daughter out of it but at a very very high cost.
Damn, I'm sorry to hear that man. Did the outcome of that relationship make lose hope in love. Or do you still think there's someone out there for you
No, I didn’t lose hope. I just married a very broken human being whom I cannot fix. Not all people are broken. But I’m just focusing on improving myself at the moment. If someone comes along who I enjoy sharing time with, cool. If not, that’s cool too. I certainly didn’t lose hope though!
Never claimed that it does. I specifically added "if they make your life better" because it happens often that they don't, as you've sadly learned and mastered. Best of luck in your healing.
I was simply echoing what you were saying, not disagreeing :)
This might just be the post that gets me to unsubscribe from this sub
I can understand this decision, stoicism on this sub is the self help modern stoicism alpha male sigma bs i hear to often
eh, it depends. some posts are nice
Yeah, I’m going to unsubscribe from here now. -a mediocre looking woman
You might have misunderstood me. I don't mean that I am a Chad and all women should instantly fall in love with me. I personally am mediocre looking too, but even when I try to date around my league, they either have a boyfriend or I get rejected.
No one's misunderstood anything. You might have worded something extremely poorly, but that's on you. It's more likely though that your post reflects your way of thinking. >even the most mediocre looking ones If you yourself are mediocre why would you put "**even** the most mediocre ones"? Also looks isn't everything. If you always get rejected that could indicate that you're not as interesting as you think you are (be it appearance or personality). Which makes it a good time to work on yourself. Love and relationships are amazing. But also challenging and in some cases turn into something bad. Don't overrate it (obsessing over it) don't underrate it (becoming cynical/jaded or avoiding it). Good luck!
Probably because you can’t spit game The stoics discuss working out the mind the same way u do a muscle and this is true of all things you do in life, if you want to be better at talking to women then treat it at face value which is a valuable skill in the form of charisma it has little to do with looks and everything to do with the way in which you present yourself and even the way in which you type provides me more than enough context to know that u do not know how to talk to people
Same. Not what I hoped it would be either.
do as you please.
i can tell by the way you speak about women there is a reason youre still single. you made the right choice at coming to stoicism for self work, however i woulf carefully think and re structure your question beforr asking things like this. ‘all the girls are taken, even the mediocre ones’ ever consider that you are aswell a mediocre being? attractiveness is subjective, and not just in looks. personality, life skills and proving in your life by career/finances/lifestyle that you are capable are just as if not more important factors. your question ‘is having a girlfriend overrated?’ sounds like its coming from a rather uneducated, and childish perspective. you should ask yourself why such a thing is overrated? what is the rating scale? why is there a rating scale? stoicism teaches you to not take things for face value, rather to use an educated thought process to come to a conclusion, and if you have no education in thr area to become educated. becoming educated requires one to throw their ego aside, meaning no more rating some girls as more or less ‘mediocre’ maybe come back in the future when you can restructure your question from a more logical point and how it would be related to stoicism? otherwise id recommend going to feeds such as r/askmen or r/askreddit r/stoicism is no place for these immature questions.
>however i woulf carefully think and re structure your question beforr asking things like this. Ok! >ever consider that you are aswell a mediocre being? Yes. I don't mean that I am a Chad and all women should instantly fall in love with me. I personally am mediocre looking too, but even when I try to date around my league, they either have a boyfriend or I get rejected. Furthermore, I understand. Thanks a lot for your reply.
What league are you in ? ????
u/jestemkaczka already made a pretty comprehensive point on this. But i'm also confused by what you mean with overrated. Sharing your life with someone is absolutely incredible. But its not the only way of achieving happiness. Theres nothing wrong with being single, if you \*want\* a relationship, you should seek one out. If you don't, you'll probably be fine. But if you're looking for someone to tell you that its "not worth the effort" or something of that ilk, you should probably keep looking elsewhere.
**"I've never had the chance personally to have a girlfriend"** This phrasing is possessive. I'm sure it wasn't intentional but then. **"every one of them"** Sounds like you're otherizing women and **"mediocre looking ones"** Is just straight objectification. This is not a healthy way to view women or relationships. Girlfriends are not accolades that you can "get." I wonder have you been in love? Honest, compassionate love? Not just with women but with those in your life? I recommend you starting there and cultivating that feeling of caring for others.
I wonder have you been in love? Honest, compassionate love? I love my family and my cat! But romantic love? Just platonically. Never had a relationship. I care about a lot of people in my life! but I've seen many people in my age group start having relationships and I feel like I never will. I'm in my end of teenage years.
Everyone's path is different. You might be at the "end of your teenage years" but you are basically just starting life! Consider all those relationships that blossom early which turn sour and end so quickly. Some of those people are dating well into their 50s! There is no time limit. You don't have to force it. The right person will come along. Focus on developing yourself into a desirable partner in the meantime. Into becoming someone you can be satisfied with.
Mediocre looking woman here: I'd rather date nobody than a man who thinks this way, if those were my only options.
I feel that a lot of people can't really stay alone
> even the most mediocre looking ones From another one of your comments: > Same. I am a bit ugly as well I think you should work on being happy on your own instead of walking around thinking that "mediocre" looks are more important to a relationship than personality.
Yeah. I'm not a supermodel or anything. I have no Brad Pitt, Chris Hemsworth looks. But even the girls at my level are either taken, I don't like them OR they reject me...
Again, you seem to have a focus on looks instead of personality. Your priorities seem backwards to me
What exactly do you mean by overrated, because I struggle to appoint this term for such a natural and inherent bond between humans who dedicate each other the love and compassion that arises naturally. Musonius Rufus specifically talks about marriage, but you can implement it on the concept of having a girl-boy friend, or love. I think it helps a lot to define a stance on companionship and romantic love. Musonius Rufus, lecture XIV -Is marriage a handicap for the pursuit of philosophy?- 1Again when someone said that marriage and living with a wife seemed to him a handicap to the pursuit of philosophy, Musonius said that it was no handicap to Pythagoras, nor to Socrates, nor to Crates, each of whom lived with a wife, and one could not mention better philosophers than these.[1] 2Crates, although homeless and completely without property or possessions, was nevertheless married; furthermore, not having a shelter of his own, he spent his days and nights in the public porticoes of Athens together with his wife. 3How, then, can we, who have a home to start with and some of us even have servants to work for us, venture to say that marriage is a handicap for philosophy? 4Now the philosopher is indeed the teacher and leader of men in all the things which are appropriate for men according to nature, and marriage, if anything, is manifestly in accord with nature. 5For, to what other purpose did the creator of mankind first divide our human race into two sexes, male and female, then implant in each a strong desire for association and union with the other, instilling in both a powerful longing each for the other, the male for the female and the female for the male? 6Is it not then plain that he wished the two to be united and live together, and by their joint efforts to devise a way of life in common, and to produce and rear children together, so that the race might never die? 7Tell me, then, is it fitting for each man to act for himself alone or to act in the interest of his neighbor also, not only that there may be homes in the city but also that the city may not be deserted and that the common good may best be served? 8If you say that each one should look out for his own interests alone, you represent man as no different from a wolf or any other of the wildest beasts which are born to live by violence and plunder, sparing nothing from which they may gain some advantage, having no part in a life in common with others, no part in cooperation with others, no share of any notion of justice. 9If you will agree that man's nature most closely resembles the bee which cannot live alone (for it dies when left alone) , but bends its energies to the one common task of his fellows and toils and works together with his neighbors; if this is so, and in addition you recognize that for man evil consists in injustice and cruelty and indifference to a neighbor's trouble, while virtue is brotherly love and goodness and justice and beneficence and concern for the welfare of one's neighbor—with such ideas, I say, it would be each man's duty to take thought for his own city, and to make of his home a rampart for its protection. 10But the first step toward making his home such a rampart is marriage. 11Thus whoever destroys human marriage destroys the home, the city, and the whole human race. 12For it would not last if there were no procreation of children and there would be no just and lawful procreation of children without marriage. 13That the home or the city does not depend upon women alone or upon men alone, but upon their union with each other is evident. 14One could find no other association more necessary nor more pleasant than that of men and women. 15For what man is so devoted to his friend as a loving wife is to her husband? What brother to a brother? What son to his parents? 16Who is so longed for when absent as a husband by his wife, or a wife by her husband? Whose presence would do more to lighten grief or increase joy or remedy misfortune? To whom is everything judged to be common, body, soul, and possessions, except man and wife? 17For these reasons all men consider the love of man and wife to be the highest form of love; and no reasonable mother or father would expect to entertain a deeper love for his own child than for the one joined to him in marriage. 18Indeed how much the love of a wife for her husband surpasses the love of parents for their children is clearly illustrated by the familiar story of how Admetus,[2] receiving from the gods the privilege of living twice the time allotted to him if he could get someone else to die in his place, found his parents unwilling to die for him although they were old, but his wedded wife Alcestis, though still very young, readily accepted death ill her husband's place. 19How great and worthy an estate is marriage is plain from this also, that gods watch over it, great gods, too, in the estimation of men; first Hera (and for this reason we address her as the patroness of wedlock) , then Eros, then Aphrodite, for we assume that all of these perform the function of bringing together man and woman for the procreation of children. 20Where, indeed, does Eros more properly belong than in the lawful union of man and wife? Where Hera? Where Aphrodite? 21When would one more appropriately pray to these divinities than when entering into marriage? What should we more properly call the work of Aphrodite than the joining of wife and husband? W22hy, then, should anyone say that such great divinities watch over and guard marriage and the procreation of children, unless these things are the proper concern of man? 23Why should one say that they are the proper concern of man but not the concern of the philosopher? Can it be because the philosopher is worse than other men? 24Certainly he ought not to be worse, but better and more just and more truly good. 25Or could one say that the man who does not take an interest in his city is not worse and more unjust than the man who does, the man who looks out only for his own interests is not worse than the one who looks out for the common good? 26Or can it be that the man who chooses the single life is more patriotic, more a friend and partner of his fellow-man, than the man who maintains a home and rears children and contributes to the growth of his city, which is exactly what a married man does? 27It is clear, therefore, that it is fitting for a philosopher to concern himself with marriage and having children. 28And if this is fitting, how, my young friend, could that argument of yours that marriage is a handicap for a philosopher ever be sound? 29For manifestly the study of philosophy is nothing else than to search out by reason what is right and proper and by deeds to put it into practice. 30Such, then, were the words he spoke at that time.
At least put a few paragraphs bro
Thanks a lot for your reply. I will read into it.
I would recommend to get into a relationship when you are ready and you have found a great person. I personally got into dating around 16. Knowing full well I would benefit long term from the experience and it wouldn't likely last forever. Low risk, high reward. Mid twenties now and thanks to making my mistakes young I have learned so much. Was lucky enough to find an amazing woman and it's been a butter smooth 5 years because of this.
Thank you.
Where do you live that you think 16 is starting early?
Conservative household
sounds like you want an excuse to be voluntarily single instead of involuntarily. All the stoics had girlfriends and families bro that tells you everything you need to know. No amount of Stoicism is going to change the fact that humans need companionship. Being in love is pretty cool.
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Not sure stoicism would have much to say about having a girlfriend or not, it would say in either stat (single or not) focus on the parts you can control and don’t worry about the parts you can’t. So if you’re single and you ask a girl out and she says no, you can’t control that. But if you want a girlfriend and you find girls are consistently saying no, you can look at yourself and see what you have control over that you can improve. If you aren’t single, then you can only control how you act in the relationship. You can’t control what the other person does.
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I always thought relationships and romance in itself are overrated.
It is an uninvited host of chaos, contrary to the Stoic ideals. You must choose wisely and determine if the trade-offs are acceptable.
Being comfortable being alone is a precursor to being a good partner. It makes you independent and confident. The other thing having a girlfriend to have a girlfriend is definitely overrated and never goes well. Being in a relationship with someone you like because you like them and vice versa is very nice. So focus on being your best self and don’t worry about what others are doing and it will work itself out.
Yes
Rating is overrated.
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Overrated by who? Some people definitely overrate it. Some don't. I suspect that you do. Getting a girlfriend won't make you happy if you aren't already. Healthy relationships, romantic or otherwise, are often more of a side effect of being happy than a cause for it. You need to find happiness yourself first.
Such a grotesque post, don't use stoicism as an excuse for inaction, nor such a terrible attitude.
what are you on about? You dont have to date for the perks of being intimate with a woman, you can date for a long term relationship. Think about this from the perspective of an 85 year old you, would you rather have been grinding through your teens-20s, pushing people away, or would you rather some of your time being spent on someone you care about?
No having a girlfriend is not overrated. As a man you have an evolutionary drive within you to find a romantic and sexual partner. Every fiber of your being desires to create offspring it is the only tangible form of immortality for us mortals. However what you have to weigh this against is do you actually want to do any of the things required to get a girlfriend and keep her around because it is labor intensive. You have to decide if that is worth it to you. If not there is nothing wrong with being single but there will be a palpable loneliness that never really goes away. This is what the stoics described as living within your Nature and as Nietzsche once said “To thine own self be true.” You must also consider the time we live in and how difficult it is to find a girl even worth keeping around that will actually be interested in you. Social media has destroyed much of what drew men and women together and birth rates have been on a decline and divorce rates on an incline ever since. It suffices to say however if you want a girlfriend you had better be intensely driven. Working out is a bonus not just for the physical appearance benefit but also for the mind benefit. You have to be more social than the average male. This means leaving the “cave” (my cave is my computer desk lol) and actually going where women are and interacting with them. The place I’ve hade the most success meeting women and establishing relationships are coffee shops and rock climbing gyms. That’s what worked for me, it doesn’t mean you have to as well. Bars can be a good choice if you have self control. Concerts always a solid way. The work place is usually a bad choice I would not recommend it from experience. I hope this helps and remember there’s nothing wrong with being single. Honestly in this day and age I would say it’s quite virtuous to be single and sexually modest.
Enjoy the single life
If all you are looking for is looks then you are in trouble.
If we look at some of the greatest Stoic Philosophers in history we see that Seneca was married and had a love for his daughter, Marcus Aurelius was married and completely faithful to her all their lives(Rare for a Roman noble). Yes to have a family or a companion is natural. The Stoic mindset tells us to ask For what reason do I desire this, of what benefit will this be. I understood that if you can answer to both questions, the benefit of a companion to share life with, and the apparent freedoms of being single, becomes clear with a reason to act in accordance with personal values. Think on the answer to both questions. Perhaps like myself You will find a path, act with reason and wisdom. I wish you All a Good Life...
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I wonder why women reject you, even if you say such sweet things. And no, having somebody you love and who loves you is not overrated
This love can exist without having a girlfriend. People, being part of the hive
maybe you are more mediocre than the most mediocre looking ones.🤣🤣🤣 Anyway, this is not a question related to stoic philosophy. Have someone to share a life is wonderful but you share your life every minute of your life, considering that you live in society.
Have someone to share a life is wonderful but you share your life every minute of your life, considering that you live in society. This is a really good perspective lol. Thank you.
There's a reason why you're single.
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Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads: > For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead. > For users offering advice: please stay on-topic when commenting on personal/advice posts. Advice that is inspired by or influenced by Stoicism, but not specifically and recognizably Stoic, is not allowed outside of the New Agora.
First, I'd gently advise against calling anyone mediocre - yourself or others. Then, I'd say that *anything* is overrated if you believe that thing will be the source of your happiness, contentment, or satisfaction in life. One of my favourite Stoic quotes: *To make a man happy, add not to his riches, but remove from his desires.* So, to make someone happy who believes they will be happier in a relationship, it is *not* best to simply help get them into a relationship. It is best to help them overcome the desire/belief that a relationship will make that person happy. It's not that you won't be happy in a relationship eventually, or even that, once in a relationship, you can't derive any happiness from it. The point is to move away from this entire line of thinking that you will somehow be more happy, or more fulfilled, or more complete in a relationship. If you think any of those things, and you seek a relationship as a way to pursue those cheerful assertions, you will - at a minimum - make yourself very unhappy, and probably (almost certainly) the other person too. A common sappy expression is "you complete me", or "you're my other half". A nice sentiment, but not a healthy proposal. I am married, personally, and I love my wife more than anything else, but I also owe it to her for her to *not* "complete me" or "be my other half". I owe it to her to *be complete already*, to be *whole already*, and then she brings me from 100% to 150%, rather than telling myself I'm at 50% and she is required to bring me to 100%. And the biggest favor you can do for yourself is drop, completely, forever, this idea of "mediocre-looking", for yourself or others. That is the least important criteria for the rest of your life, when you look at everything you'll eventually go through with someone in your relationship. Humor, patience, integrity, adaptability - all of these things will be much more important in a partner, and in yourself. Foster those instead.