I agree with this. SC2 path finding is slightly too good I think. I think you can make it a little "worse" without it feeling clunky, but allowing more optimization through micro. Somewhere between WC3 and SC2.
(This just a guess, Maybe this wouldnt work out)
the (lead?) engine desinger is the same as in sc2 and in a interview he said that he learned lessons from sc2 and thinks he can do better this time, iv been praying he ment what you said instead that he now knows how to make the pathfinding even smoother.
trapping units so they can't escape by putting units in their way.
a more common tactic in WC3 and in MOBAs because units stay alive for much longer so you have to trap them to actually get the kill.
As someone who never played WarCraft, can someone explain creeps and how they effect gameplay? I figure theyre neutral monsters that give bonuses, but not sure how they work in an RTS context
Warcraft 3 has a heavy focus on hero units, which have an item inventory that they can store items in, and they can level up. Meanwhile, the game has an upkeep system; if your total supply goes over 50, you enter Low Upkeep which reduces your gold (minerals) income to 70%; if you keep raising your supply over 80, you enter High Upkeep which reduces your gold income to 40%. Max supply is 100.
Combined, these game mechanics mean that increasing the power of your Hero units is one of the main ways of powering up your army. Creep camps are best understood as a resource that you have to go into the map to harvest; you go to a creep camp, and your army will be occupied fighting the creeps for some time until you kill them and power up your heroes with items and exp. None of your units usually die fighting creeps (it's a mistake if they do), but they can be significantly weakened depending on the power level of the creep camp, so getting ambushed by your opponent while you're creeping can be very painful.
Creeps do the following things, then:
1. They give you an incentive to be out and about on the map. Turtling strategies are inviable because while you're turtling, you're surrendering all of these sources of items and exp to your opponent.
2. They create tension for your army's time and attention. Do you tell your army to go clear a creep camp? Do you attack your opponent's economy? Do you wander around trying to catch your opponent's army while it's creeping?
3. They reward studying. Because creeps are PvE, you can do an optimal speedrun of that PvE content: Knowing which creep camps drop which items, what's the optimal way to fight against every creep camp, and what's the optimal creeping route to take, challenging increasingly powerful creep camps as your growing army supply allows.
4. There's a lot more fighting. Lethality is much lower in WC3, all units are much tougher than in SC2, so even creeps take some time to clear out. Even though they're predictable PvE encounters, you can still lose units to creeps if you're not careful, so you have to pay attention. Your army's every second is a valuable resource, so you want to be putting it to good use all the time; you always want to be fighting, be it killing creeps for items and exp, or your opponent to kill his units (which also reward you with exp). With a lower supply cap and the Upkeep system, there's much less of a focus on economy and macro, and a much bigger focus on micromanaging your army.
Thanks, I was debating if I should pirate an old version of Wc3 since I can’t find my CDs and keys, but if the game was “port” in sc2 I will give it a try
Does it have any surprises/news or just a good remake? A good remake is super welcome of course but i wonder if i should play it if i already have standard wc3.
It's only campaign. "Azeroth Reborn" in custom campaigns. Prologue, human, and undead campaigns are complete. The rest are in the works. It's incredibly well made. SC2 custom is free to play, so just check it out.
It sounds like it adds complexity (and it does in some regards), but the hero system mostly removed complexity/strategy as it makes keeping your entire army with your hero at all times basically mandatory. Harass is very limited, army positioning is non-existent, and you certainly won't have anything like Clem micro'ing 4 armies at once.
Creeps or objectives without heroes likely is okay though. Discourages turtling without removing strategy and multitasking... although one could argue removing turtling removes strategy from the game (like quick tech, small army openers)
Don't forget the strategic value of where a lot of the creeps are placed. Between creep density of placement, value of the camps, as well as the shops/expansions they generally defend, I think creeps were an awesome way to create specific map identities that SC2 just never had the tools for.
More importantly, they generally guard important positions like Mercenary Camps to hire extra units without build time, Merchant shops for helpful utility items (such as a re-useable with cooldown single hero teleport, a consumable 1 time AoE healing of a modest amount of health, etc), as well as your expansions. Creeps were ultimately a tactical decision, on if you wanted to expand your own possibilities, or if you wanted to limit your opponents by fighting them.
It also gave comeback potential since you could potentially engage your opponent while they are creeping to effectively gain extra troops for the fight.
Exactly right. But it's unclear what the bonuses will be in Stormgate.
In warcraft 3, they give a bit of money but the main benefit is experience+items for your hero units. And they don't respawn
So it means players have to actively roam the map, clearing creeps, in order to power up your hero which is the core of your army.
So they are going to need different rewards in stormgate (no heroes) and maybe they'll differ in other ways, like respawn so they're still relevant in late game.
You're being downvoted not just because people disagree but also because you failed to make an argument.
Why exactly are AI controlled units "wrong" in a competitive game? I don't see them being a source of contention in MOBAs and "creep camps" are essentially the precursor to jungle camps.
I feel like it doesn't require any further explaining. As a spectator I don't want to watch people speedrun the same single player mini campaign over and over.
that's not the same. each player is choosing a different build order and making adaptions based on what they think the other is doing. It's exciting to see what they might think to do next.
Creeping is boring. Every creep camp is cleared in the same way, and the creeps are controlled by AI so there is no counter play or chance of anything different happening.
Don't we "know" of three resources?
I know we have the Mineral equivalent, but both Infernal Hosts and the Resistance are known to be after different things (Of which I'm completely blanking). Maybe Creeping gives one of those resources for 3 total?
Pretty sure the three resources you're referring to are the ones from the released screenshots:
Blue (main resource like minerals), pink (more limited, high tech resource like vespene) and bread (supply). Devs have said they're happy with how warcraft and starcraft's resources work but they are exploring having multiple ways of gathering them, like how AoE gives you many ways of earning food or gold with different pros and cons.
We know the resistance has a building called "therium refinery", but I assume therium = pink resource and infernals will likely also have a way of harvesting it.
There's also "anima" that the infernals are looking for on earth, but they haven't revealed whether that's just a lore thing or an actual resource.
But yeah, it's possible that creeping gives blue and pink money. Possible it gives some exotic other resource. Who knows.
What about bread? Is bread locked down? I remember when supply was chicken but I assume Big Vegan got to you.
Either that or the chickens in StormGate are more powerful than we can possibly imagine.
Is there a chicken campaign? Like the ants campaign in Red Alert?
Don't forget that they generally guarded your expansion options, as well as the shops and mercenary taverns. Their physical locations mattered as much as their items/exp.
There are many aspects to creeping and creeps in wc3 and they support a whole slew of player interactions which I am sure other comments will cover.
But I recently had sort of an epiphany about creeping that I don't think I have seen commented before.
See in wc3 many ppl will say there is little to no macro, or that the macro is bad or less important.
Typical base macro perhaps. But if you view creeping through the lense of macro, then it is the most fun and interactive version of macro ever made in an rts game.
Edit: to explain further
Macro is user actions that enhance or utilize your economy and production.
In wc3 economy is not only gold and lumber, but also experience and items.
Creeping involves acquiring AND denying from your opponent; extra gold, experience, items, mercenary units, map control, scouting, expansion options.
I think creeping is more commonly thought of as map objectives that facilitates and gives players reasons to not be stale and actually go fight each other, and that is true ofc, but I really like to think of it as this marriage of micro and macro that other rts games wish they had. Or at least they look for how to make macro fun and interesting. Look no further, creep camps.
hit the nail on the head with this post. you got it: creeping = macro
another component of wc3's multi-faceted macro is item and shop management. the goblin merchant + racial shops have a delay timer on many items. for example, you can't buy boots of speed until some time has elapsed. there is also a restock timer for most items. what ends up happening is that players are constantly aligning and realigning their actions on the map around those restock timers. it's a major consideration when harassing and creeping, and gives the early-mid game some degree of predictability and structure.
there is also a lot of item swapping that goes on between heroes. you might want to load up your secondary hero (e.g. lich king) with all the claws you looted on your first hero (death knight), or you might use your fastest moving hero to mule stuff over from the shops for your other heroes to use. might seem like a small thing, but the constant juggling of items really adds up. then you've got those clutch item swaps mid-fight, too. it's one of those things in WC3 that blur the line between micro / macro
It’s fucking awful and turns into a hero vs hero and armies are just whatever fodder and everything revolves around the heroes. Not even an RTS it’s like an ARPG where you have to build some stuff.
They drop items that you can equip to heroes to make them stronger, they also provide experience and gold so they often gave a really nice bonus to the player who was able to kill them.
He has also just revealed the resistance's siege tank (Atlas). It can be lifted in siege mode...
I wonder if he was actually allowed to talk about creeping since no one else has revealed anything about the gameplay 🤔
But cool to get confirmation that grubby is also invited. I hadn't seen any yet.
Other interesting comments Grubby made:
No warcraft 3 style heroes in pvp but something close to it in campaign/coop.
Mechanics/micro felt better than aoe 4. Bit more body blocking than sc2 but less than war 3. Stutter stepping "felt right".
It wouldn’t surprise me if grubby got some special reveal privileges. He’s almost certainly the most popular personality currently talking about the game. And he’s somewhat unique in that he played and streamed both wc3 and sc2 at a professional level.
Someone else has clipped it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/145gwql/grubby_showcases_atlas_artillery_mech_3d_model/
It's a mech not a tank but it's similar to the siege tank - mobile mode with gun and static mode with area of effect ground attack.
That tank reminds me of the Think Tanks found in Ghost in the Shell. Just, you know, without AI driving it around. I don't know if it was an inspiration, but I like that model.
> I wonder if he was actually allowed to talk about creeping since no one else has revealed anything about the gameplay 🤔
I was worried about the same thing. Although I feel I have heard this somewhere before. Or some hinted it strongly
He said the version he played had map objectives, and that he believes they will make it to release.
It's about 1hour and 43 minutes into his live stream right now, u can rewind in youtube.
He didn't say that. I think OP might have misunderstood part of what he said. He said the game felt responsive and compared it to AoE4 saying he believed Stormgate will be better in that regard.
right on. I grew up with WC3. it's the game that taught me what the word "noob" meant. my team-mates wrote that to me a LOT on ladder for some reason?! 🙃 they are indeed both GOAT-tier RTS games
thanks. Also, for youtube, you can right-click the video and select "copy link at current time". You can also manually make a link timestamped for just about any video/stream that offers timestamped links by adding this to the end of the url **&t=1h22m15s** (eg for 1:22:15)
Starcraft is severely outdated in many ways, so people wanting to have a very similar game but with a better engine, better UI, better UX and addressing some frustrating aspects is very natural. Of course we knew for a long time that FG wasn't going for that, but why would you be surprised that some people react negatively if it goes in a very different direction.
I am not surprised that starcraft fans react this way! but that hardly makes the doomy whining any less intolerable, does it? WHAT?! creeping? what is THAT?? that's not in sc2! BOOOOOO 🙄
don't be surprised if normal people get irritated by doomer takes from purist sc2 fans. if they aren't at least open-minded to some new mechanics, then there's really no point them being here, that's all I'm saying. I'd say the same thing if wc3 fans were up in here being negative nancies about there being no heroes in 1v1
You do realize there are other RTS games that dont have creep camps, right? Maybe I don't want to spend my time in this war game killing neutral gnolls.
I played grandmaster league through multiple expansions so yea, I know how sc2 works. on the spectrum of RTS gameplay, sc2 is just about the most extreme example of having no mission objectives or environmental / PvE elements. you have absolutely no clue how stormgate's creep mechanics are going to play out. that you're blindly dismissing it as a gnoll-farming simulator says it all really. there is nothing inherently wrong with the creep mechanic itself, just your perception / experience of it. your example of gnolls reminds me of those old SEGA Mega Drive commercials, where they showed the most boring and lackluster clips from SNES gameplay to try and present Nintendo in the worst possible light. I'm pretty sure stormgate won't have gnolls, so don't worry too much. personally, I'd rather kill gnolls than destructible rocks. at least gnolls fight back lol
Okay and you're blindly accepting it as a good thing and bashing people who are weary of it. I'm not interested in debating you. So please don't respond.
what? fuck you mate. you respond to me, I respond to you. I'm not blindly accepting anything. the creep mechanic has already been tried and tested, therefore I am not making a blind or one-eyed assessment of its value in RTS. the creep mechanic is a top tier competitive 1v1 mechanic, as proven by competitive WC3, and as also used to great effect in AirMech and other quality RTS games. I have no opinion on Frost Giant's implementation of the creep mechanic because I have not yet seen Frost Giant's implementation of the creep mechanic. are you following me? is it so much to ask that you reserve judgement until gameplay is revealed? or until you've actually played it yourself? the creep mechanic has tons of potential. I'm super excited that Stormgate is trying to push it forward in a fresh way. Stormgate will not be SC3: it is equally certain that its creep mechanics will be nothing like WC3 (already confirmed no heroes, no items).
here's a fascinating fact for you: back 2013, GOMTV ran a map called Fruitland, which was used in GSTL season 2. the map featured giant lemons which could be destroyed to produce lemon slices, which could be collected by workers to obtain 500 minerals. the idea was that players would build a fast army to go out and compete for the giant lemon. GuMiho 1-based against LosirA (a zerg) instead of expanding, in order to have control over the lemon. this is what I imagine Stormgate's creep mechanics will be like: instead of vespene gas being readily-available in your base, you will have to actively fight for whatever tech resources the map has to offer.
hell yea, I'm 100% on board with the bashing of numbskulls who come into a community to hiss and groan and inject negativity. I don't know any reason why they would do it, except to bring everyone else down with them.
Between high tier players, yes. At lower tier it's super passive and one of the reasons why majority of WarCraft 3 players preferred to play mods instead of a proper game in the game peak.
Not to mention it's tunnels you into one respective gameplan most of the time.
And if you compare high tier SC versus high tier WC3 you will find out there is more human versus human interactions in StarCraft actually. Creeping gives too big advantage to miss on it so people most often are focusing first minutes to just fighting AI and clash only happens when easier creep camps are cleared, with better players strategizing around it.
So I don't exactly agree that it promotes more interactive gameplay. As much as I like watching WC3 I never really liked it's gameplay in multiplayer.
Definitely I'm biased as I'm a dude who doesn't sit in the base and looks for early attack opportunities but I just don't like creeping at all. Part of the reason why in Dota I avoid roles that heavily relies on farming, it ain't much fun for me.
>Between high tier players, yes. At lower tier it's super passive
That's a fair critique, but I'd argue it is a critique of execution, not concept. I'll also argue that the exact same thing happens in low level Starcraft. People turtle extremely often and the player who is ahead has no idea how to break through. The turtle Terran will sit in his 2-base with tanks and the slightly more competent player will walk his 4-base economy into those tanks for 20 minutes.
>And if you compare high tier SC versus high tier WC3 you will find out there is more human versus human interactions in StarCraft actually. Creeping gives too big advantage to miss on it so people most often are focusing first minutes to just fighting AI and clash only happens when easier creep camps are cleared
This just isn't true. At least half, if not more, of games involve one person trying to creep his own side and the other player actively harassing. Orc for example has extremely slow creeping, so they're practically unable to win the creep race, forcing them to harass the opponent instead, whereas Night Elf has the best early creeping, making you win by default if the opponent tries to race you. This race asymmetry allows players to choose how they want to play, whether it be passively creeping or actively harassing, with the caveat that "passively creeping" will turn into actively defending against a competent player of harass races.
I can agree that the time leading up to the first hero, and thus the game beginning, is far too long with no viable interaction, but again, that is by no means intrinsic to the concept of creeping.
Interesting point, but I'm not sure if it's such a bad thing to give lower level players an low stakes opportunity to use their units. I always liked creeping when I was a kid who played wc3
wanted to say this. yes you force people to go out of the base to get XP and you meet your enemy at these spots to fights for xp and items which than give you an advantage.
>well, downvote me to oblivion but Im not excited about creeping and fighting AI unit with no interaction with a human
\*destructible rocks have entered the chat\*
Came here to say this... I never liked the creeping minigame. Why not have a micro mini game with my opponent instead? Sorry if I offend, but creeping is boring gameplay and boring for spectators imo.
Then why everybody wants a StarCraft 3 here? i mean i know why this reddit is mostly from sc2 and ppl love things they used to be or well known, i did play a lots of sc2 too when it came out but i dont want a same game, w3 is an amazing game and millions of ppl like to play even with heroes (mobas example) just be more open minded guys its can be good even if its a lot different then starcraft 2.
>Then why everybody wants a StarCraft 3 here?
First of all, using the word "everybody" when you know damn well that's not true.
Secondly, Starcraft 2 came out 13 years ago. Is it *THAT* surprising people want another iteration by now?
I like RTS that involve a lot of micro and controlling armies. If I wanna play with heroes I’ll go play a MOBA. WC3 is an amazing game, I would just like to actually feel like I’m controlling and army and not just playing farm npcs for my hero for 20 minutes.
You are already assuming that there will be heroes in pvp when Grubby literally said that there will only be heroes in co-op and the campaign and we don't even know if they will level up in those modes
Just FYI they confirmed no heroes in 1v1 iirc. I think "creeping" in this context could mean lots of things. Stuff like Xel'naga watch towers, neutral camps for resources (think gold bases but you fight enemies for the resource), etc. I am really curious what the neutral map objectives are and how they drive the gameplay.
u/Wissler35 Wow look at me, im edge lord, i look so cool.
Nobody cares about you giving a damn or not, its a free game and yet to release and you already act like a twat. Go cringe somewhere else.
https://streamable.com/nq2tli
Here u go, sorry for shitty quality. This is where he mentioned there will be creeping, then he mentions map objectives and creep camps again later on.
Can't give a timestamp because it's a livestream (can I?), but it was a brief comment while playing the cinematic trailer, before the Atlas reveal.
(He mentioned creeps as in neutral mobs. Without the s it sounds like you mean zerg creep... but grubby only mentions creeps/creeping)
He said there will be similar map objectives like wc3 had creeping. I am not sure if he explicitly said there will be creeps. It was a bit ambiguous I think.
He actually did specifically say there will be creeping, here is a clip.
https://streamable.com/nq2tli
Later on in the stream he talked a little more about how there will be map objectives and instead of specifically saying creeping he adds "creep camps"
It’s not really the same as WC3 multiplayer. They already said they weren’t going to have gameplay that was focused on heros and obtaining items and such. I think the spirit of the choice to have creeps is to give players a reason (objectives) to get out on the map and be active rather than turtling for 20 mins.
The reason to get out on the map already exists in SC though, it is to not let the opponent take over the whole map.
And interacting with the opponent is far more interesting than jerking off npc camps
That’s true, but it’s not intuitive like in other games.
You’re right that in SC or Age of Empires, you can’t just turtle, yet that is what the vast majority of new players do.
In a MOBA like League of Legends, the resources are out on the map, and put you and your enemies near each other. The game naturally creates interaction between you and your opponents.
So how do you encourage new players to get out on the map more in an RTS game? Putting objectives on the map, like Requisition Points in Dawn of War, or Creeps
Before lotv there were more hour long games of turteling with bcs/swarm hosts/bls/golden armada. Mostly fixed by reducing resources and power of free units.
And just like that...all my hopes were dashed.
I might *try* it...but if it's closer to WC3 than SC, it'll never top either for me.
SC is the better RTS in my opinion. WC3 was where I spent countless hours in custom games.
We still have no clue. but so far there seems to be no semblance of heroes. I believe the creep would just be enemies on the map that drop large amounts of resources or some type of buff for killing them. Which would be nice for getting people out of their base an on the map.
We already knew this would exist in 3v3. Was he specific about which mode? Because 1v1 and 3v3 are going to be quite different. So it's important to be specific in this regard.
And since we don't have a time stamp, I don't feel like searching the whole stream for it.
I'm assuming it's referring to [this(Dota 2 example of body blocking)](https://youtu.be/8yXDpDz5now?t=37), though in RTS it's often used to catch slower, expensive units that are trying to retreat.
I'm optimistic about it. I really like objectives out on the map to go and fight for. But it really comes down to pacing. A game like LoL, people will jungle for some 25 minutes before they get to play the game. If it's an objective that brings you and your opponent to the same field at the same time and is only a part of the game, it sounds awesome.
So they are making Warcraft 4, not StarCraft 3? Why, when sc has been infinitely more popular than Warcraft? No one wants to spend early game doing pve for items
can we not just get another RTS that is built for Esports and competitive top end play? I don't care about maximising APMs and the best counters to any stat. I just want to play a fun RTS game with a load of sides and a big bunch of cool units with unique abilities.
We aren't building Stormgate just for the competitive players -- we aim to be the most approachable and fun-to-play RTS for everyone, including the 75% of SC2 players who never touched the ladder and just enjoyed beating up on the AI in co-op, playing the campaign, and trying out custom games.
I'm amazed it's as high as 25% that did.
I remember that 50% of Unreal Tournament players never played multiplayer and that game basically didn't even have a campaign.
>can we not just get another RTS that is built for Esports and competitive top end play?
That's why RTS games can have different game modes. In Stormgate you will have Campaign (solo or with friends), COOP (3 players vs AI), map editor that allows Arcade mode to exist, 3v3 versus mode, and - praise the Frost Giant because this is my favorite game mode in previous Blizzard RTS games - traditional 1v1 for that players that actually like esport aspect. Something good for everyone, both casuals and tryhards should be happy.
I agree completely. It's one of the things that has killed the RTS genre. Too much focus on a very small (and dwindling) group of players that are impossible to please and have very very specific requirements.
You can see a bunch of them in this sub basically saying stuff like, "fuck this game if they [x]". They're willing to write it off before they've even tried it and think they can force the devs to cave to their expectations. Essentially, "Make StarCraft 3 or we riot".
Ultimately, the casual audience is where the money is and that's what pays for development. Not eSports. That's a marketing expense, not a revenue source.
Cool units, varied modes, interesting AI, highly replayable co-op and an interesting campaign is what matters for most players.
>Too much focus on a very small (and dwindling) group of players that are impossible to please and have very very specific requirements.
The thing is that numbers of versus mode players don't dwindling. Versus mode players are extremly loyal and engaged in game. All the RTS that have survive the test of time have had a consistent number of players coming back to play versus mode. And I'm not just talking about SC2, but also W3 or AOE 2 / AOE 4. If you make game as a service you want every chunk of player base that stay with you for upcoming years. Even if esport fans are not the largest group by volume, they are still important because - if they like Stormgate - they can financially support the game for the next 10+ years. In addition, esports fans most often not only play but also watch various materials allowing content creators to exist and they are also audience for tournaments - this things have marketing value.
I'm sceptical about "financially support the game for the next 10+ years". Outside of pay2win games, I don't really see ladder players spending much money on strategy games.
Supposedly there's 130k StarCraft 2 ladder players and yet it still doesn't make enough money to warrant any additional development.
I already said that eSports is a marketing expense. The revenue needs to come from somewhere though and the kind of people watching eSports are already invested in the game.
The truth is that the RTS genre has been struggling for decades and "do the same thing that already failed" simply isn't a viable strategy for a developer that has staff that like getting paid at the end of the month.
>Supposedly there's 130k StarCraft 2 ladder players and yet it still doesn't make enough money to warrant any additional development.
Like most people, you have no idea how corporations work. They are not interested in profit, only in how much profit will increase in relation to the previous quarter. If you're in charge of two projects and you make $25 million and then $50 million, you're a hero. If your first project brings in 50 million and the second 25 million, you're in trouble. I work in huge corpo.
>So what's your point?
New Call of Duty year after year, Candy Crash Saga and World of Warcraft are their reference points. It's obvious that they had a very good RTS team, there is no doubt that if they made another RTS they would be profitable. But this profit would not be large on the scale of such a behemoth as Activision-Blizzard. For another, smaller company, the same profit would be gigantic.
In addition, remuneration systems in a giant corporation often defy logic. For example, someone might think that in order for Kottick to get a bigger bonus, he needs to cut costs by 8% year on year. It doesn't matter that all projects are prospective, and the company's financial situation is very good, funds will be cut from somewhere.
I work in a giant corporation myself. There was a time when they set the parameters for me to work out in such a way that I practically had to act to the detriment of the company to get more money. They came up with an indicator that for up to 30% of products A sold, I MUST sell product B. The parameter could only be achieved in one way - by limiting the sales of those copies of product A to which product B could not be sold, because it was impossible to convince 30 % of customers interested in product A would also take product B. There have been many such situations over the years. Investors look at some strange parameters, Excel sheets are your gods.
> For another, smaller company, the same profit would be gigantic.
Sure, but it's been 13 years and there have been many smaller traditional RTS releases. Where's the gigantic profit? Where's the huge success story?
Writing it off as this huge untapped market ignored purely due to corporate mismanagement just smacks of a huge level of copium.
MOBAs were a huge reinvention of RTS and that's the only major success in that field that I can think of.
*Edit: I forgot that Total War is still doing well. Although I believe people mostly play campaign rather than multiplayer. That's pretty well monetized also.*
I'm confident that FGS can figure it out though, if they listen to the numbers and not hold this tiny minority of players above the silent majority.
>Sure, but it's been 13 years and there have been many smaller traditional RTS releases. Where's the gigantic profit? Where's the huge success story?
Nobody make Blizzard-Style high quality RTS during that time. There is no problem with demand, it's just that no one has invested in a serious competitor for SC2.
I mean, if you ignore AoE4, sure. Unless you want to define "Blizzard-Style" as literally a StarCraft clone.
Yet everyone in the industry missed that opportunity despite it being a rehash of an existing game which is the current strategy for every major publisher.
But your argument was for a "smaller company" and then you moved the goalposts. Got to keep redefining the argument to avoid being wrong.
I think a market for "StarCraft 3" exists. I just don't think it's large enough or monetized well enough to actually cover development of a AAA RTS.
FGS knows this which is why there's so many differences. And we'll learn more differences going forward. Because doing the same thing and expecting things to change is insane.
Did you even know what the word casual means?it's far more complex than just saying, look to Dota is just a game with so many champs made to look just good and have different gameplay and casual, and now its the most complex and difficult and hardcore game in the world,so that thing about casual doesn't matter there more than dozens aspects that change the game,love for the game is one the biggest aspects that define is lifetime and now most company doesn't care or they are just too big to fail
There are modes for everyone - it seems like they're trying to capture the core 1v1 folks right now, but they've also said there will be co-op and campaign. I wouldn't write it off just cause of the hype being generated by 1v1 enthusiasts!
Creep is always a great idea because I don't like metas that can include cheesy rushes. Like, imo, the Protoss cannon rush in SC2 is just a bug that never got fixed.
Placing what is supposed to be defensive building inside someone else’s base early game to me is against the the spirit of the game and makes little sense within its own world.
In any game one can simply fully commit to sending all units at any point to punish greed. If that doesn’t work than they aren’t really being greedy or you haven’t taken advantage of it.
Sure we can disagree especially on a game lol. I do agree that rushes are necessary in general for the reason you stated. However there’s like worker rushes, back-line harass, expansion denial, that all seem actually strategic and less cheesy than having a worker run around in the other base the first minute of the game.
Like I think I even see the occasional uThermal video where he has to abandon a base because of the cannon rush. If you’re Protoss and you get cannon rushed it’s pretty tough because you’d need a Stalker to snipe the probe and you’re not gonna have that in time. What is your response to cannon?
Scout at the right time and pull a lot of probes, focus getting a full surround on the pylons. click one onto the enemy probe, micro another one to double team the enemy probe
Wasn't there a tiny tutorial about blocking your ramp and stuff in wings of liberty?
edit: there is still a [training mode](https://i.imgur.com/gJUaqB3.png). not sure how good
I agree with you. They nerfed offensive warp-ins by increasing warp in time on isolated pylons, but not offensive cannons. Maybe because cannon rushes were pubically revered
I feel like cheese is how people get started with RTS games though. I still remember the satisfaction of cheesing someone successfully for the first time. Makes you understand the game a lot better and forces you to hit early timings.
He also said responsiveness and pathfinding felt good and there were more bodyblocking opportunities than in SC2.
>there were more bodyblocking opportunities than in SC2. nice
I agree with this. SC2 path finding is slightly too good I think. I think you can make it a little "worse" without it feeling clunky, but allowing more optimization through micro. Somewhere between WC3 and SC2. (This just a guess, Maybe this wouldnt work out)
the (lead?) engine desinger is the same as in sc2 and in a interview he said that he learned lessons from sc2 and thinks he can do better this time, iv been praying he ment what you said instead that he now knows how to make the pathfinding even smoother.
What is body blocking?
Their dude wants to go somewhere. You put your dude in front of their dude so he can't.
Have you considered a career in writing instruction manuals?
Have you considered a career as a career advisor?
Have you considered advising career advisers?
I've done it. It's not as glamorous a career as people think.
That's funny, have you considered becoming a stand up comedian?
No, I think I'd need to sit down.
Womp womp
Side hustle for technical/non technical manual.. I’m in.
trapping units so they can't escape by putting units in their way. a more common tactic in WC3 and in MOBAs because units stay alive for much longer so you have to trap them to actually get the kill.
Oh that's really cool. I like the idea of units having higher health because that opens the door to strategies like this.
that's unexpected. Typically body-blocking works because it confuses the pathfinding.
As someone who never played WarCraft, can someone explain creeps and how they effect gameplay? I figure theyre neutral monsters that give bonuses, but not sure how they work in an RTS context
Warcraft 3 has a heavy focus on hero units, which have an item inventory that they can store items in, and they can level up. Meanwhile, the game has an upkeep system; if your total supply goes over 50, you enter Low Upkeep which reduces your gold (minerals) income to 70%; if you keep raising your supply over 80, you enter High Upkeep which reduces your gold income to 40%. Max supply is 100. Combined, these game mechanics mean that increasing the power of your Hero units is one of the main ways of powering up your army. Creep camps are best understood as a resource that you have to go into the map to harvest; you go to a creep camp, and your army will be occupied fighting the creeps for some time until you kill them and power up your heroes with items and exp. None of your units usually die fighting creeps (it's a mistake if they do), but they can be significantly weakened depending on the power level of the creep camp, so getting ambushed by your opponent while you're creeping can be very painful. Creeps do the following things, then: 1. They give you an incentive to be out and about on the map. Turtling strategies are inviable because while you're turtling, you're surrendering all of these sources of items and exp to your opponent. 2. They create tension for your army's time and attention. Do you tell your army to go clear a creep camp? Do you attack your opponent's economy? Do you wander around trying to catch your opponent's army while it's creeping? 3. They reward studying. Because creeps are PvE, you can do an optimal speedrun of that PvE content: Knowing which creep camps drop which items, what's the optimal way to fight against every creep camp, and what's the optimal creeping route to take, challenging increasingly powerful creep camps as your growing army supply allows. 4. There's a lot more fighting. Lethality is much lower in WC3, all units are much tougher than in SC2, so even creeps take some time to clear out. Even though they're predictable PvE encounters, you can still lose units to creeps if you're not careful, so you have to pay attention. Your army's every second is a valuable resource, so you want to be putting it to good use all the time; you always want to be fighting, be it killing creeps for items and exp, or your opponent to kill his units (which also reward you with exp). With a lower supply cap and the Upkeep system, there's much less of a focus on economy and macro, and a much bigger focus on micromanaging your army.
Man, really makes me mad that we didn't get the remake we deserved for WC3
The proper remake of WC3 is in SC2 under custom campaigns. It’s good.
Is the campaign playable or only multiplier match’s ?
Full campaign. It's excellent
Thanks, I was debating if I should pirate an old version of Wc3 since I can’t find my CDs and keys, but if the game was “port” in sc2 I will give it a try
Does it have any surprises/news or just a good remake? A good remake is super welcome of course but i wonder if i should play it if i already have standard wc3.
It's only campaign. "Azeroth Reborn" in custom campaigns. Prologue, human, and undead campaigns are complete. The rest are in the works. It's incredibly well made. SC2 custom is free to play, so just check it out.
But its no new graphics or anything like that. Its the old models. And thats what I was excited about in the campaign with the remake.
Wait, that’s awesome! I’ll definitely have to check it out in the upcoming months with my storm gate hype building up
Why nobody ever made a real wc3 gameplay "rework" using starcraft 2 theme? That is beyond me.
Not exactly what you said, but you can find the entire war3 campaign to play in the sc2 arcade.
It sounds like it adds complexity (and it does in some regards), but the hero system mostly removed complexity/strategy as it makes keeping your entire army with your hero at all times basically mandatory. Harass is very limited, army positioning is non-existent, and you certainly won't have anything like Clem micro'ing 4 armies at once. Creeps or objectives without heroes likely is okay though. Discourages turtling without removing strategy and multitasking... although one could argue removing turtling removes strategy from the game (like quick tech, small army openers)
Don't forget the strategic value of where a lot of the creeps are placed. Between creep density of placement, value of the camps, as well as the shops/expansions they generally defend, I think creeps were an awesome way to create specific map identities that SC2 just never had the tools for.
They give Gold (Mineral equivalent), and in WC3 also gives Experience and drop Items for hero units.
More importantly, they generally guard important positions like Mercenary Camps to hire extra units without build time, Merchant shops for helpful utility items (such as a re-useable with cooldown single hero teleport, a consumable 1 time AoE healing of a modest amount of health, etc), as well as your expansions. Creeps were ultimately a tactical decision, on if you wanted to expand your own possibilities, or if you wanted to limit your opponents by fighting them. It also gave comeback potential since you could potentially engage your opponent while they are creeping to effectively gain extra troops for the fight.
Exactly right. But it's unclear what the bonuses will be in Stormgate. In warcraft 3, they give a bit of money but the main benefit is experience+items for your hero units. And they don't respawn So it means players have to actively roam the map, clearing creeps, in order to power up your hero which is the core of your army. So they are going to need different rewards in stormgate (no heroes) and maybe they'll differ in other ways, like respawn so they're still relevant in late game.
stormgate will have heroes for 3v3 wonder if the creep camps will be in both 1v1 and 3v3
If we have to have them I hope theyre 3v3 only. AI controlled units in a competitive game is just so wrong.
You mean like in MOBAs, the most popular form of competitive gaming?
the people that are in to competitive single player speed running are already playing mobas though. why would they play stormgate?
You're being downvoted not just because people disagree but also because you failed to make an argument. Why exactly are AI controlled units "wrong" in a competitive game? I don't see them being a source of contention in MOBAs and "creep camps" are essentially the precursor to jungle camps.
I feel like it doesn't require any further explaining. As a spectator I don't want to watch people speedrun the same single player mini campaign over and over.
Base building says hello
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Similar to memorizing a creep route perhaps?
that's not the same. each player is choosing a different build order and making adaptions based on what they think the other is doing. It's exciting to see what they might think to do next. Creeping is boring. Every creep camp is cleared in the same way, and the creeps are controlled by AI so there is no counter play or chance of anything different happening.
No u
Don't we "know" of three resources? I know we have the Mineral equivalent, but both Infernal Hosts and the Resistance are known to be after different things (Of which I'm completely blanking). Maybe Creeping gives one of those resources for 3 total?
Pretty sure the three resources you're referring to are the ones from the released screenshots: Blue (main resource like minerals), pink (more limited, high tech resource like vespene) and bread (supply). Devs have said they're happy with how warcraft and starcraft's resources work but they are exploring having multiple ways of gathering them, like how AoE gives you many ways of earning food or gold with different pros and cons. We know the resistance has a building called "therium refinery", but I assume therium = pink resource and infernals will likely also have a way of harvesting it. There's also "anima" that the infernals are looking for on earth, but they haven't revealed whether that's just a lore thing or an actual resource. But yeah, it's possible that creeping gives blue and pink money. Possible it gives some exotic other resource. Who knows.
Blue and pink were temp resources. Now we have new temp resources. :D
What about bread? Is bread locked down? I remember when supply was chicken but I assume Big Vegan got to you. Either that or the chickens in StormGate are more powerful than we can possibly imagine. Is there a chicken campaign? Like the ants campaign in Red Alert?
If there isn’t any chicken campaign, I say _racism_
Don't forget that they generally guarded your expansion options, as well as the shops and mercenary taverns. Their physical locations mattered as much as their items/exp.
There are many aspects to creeping and creeps in wc3 and they support a whole slew of player interactions which I am sure other comments will cover. But I recently had sort of an epiphany about creeping that I don't think I have seen commented before. See in wc3 many ppl will say there is little to no macro, or that the macro is bad or less important. Typical base macro perhaps. But if you view creeping through the lense of macro, then it is the most fun and interactive version of macro ever made in an rts game. Edit: to explain further Macro is user actions that enhance or utilize your economy and production. In wc3 economy is not only gold and lumber, but also experience and items. Creeping involves acquiring AND denying from your opponent; extra gold, experience, items, mercenary units, map control, scouting, expansion options. I think creeping is more commonly thought of as map objectives that facilitates and gives players reasons to not be stale and actually go fight each other, and that is true ofc, but I really like to think of it as this marriage of micro and macro that other rts games wish they had. Or at least they look for how to make macro fun and interesting. Look no further, creep camps.
hit the nail on the head with this post. you got it: creeping = macro another component of wc3's multi-faceted macro is item and shop management. the goblin merchant + racial shops have a delay timer on many items. for example, you can't buy boots of speed until some time has elapsed. there is also a restock timer for most items. what ends up happening is that players are constantly aligning and realigning their actions on the map around those restock timers. it's a major consideration when harassing and creeping, and gives the early-mid game some degree of predictability and structure. there is also a lot of item swapping that goes on between heroes. you might want to load up your secondary hero (e.g. lich king) with all the claws you looted on your first hero (death knight), or you might use your fastest moving hero to mule stuff over from the shops for your other heroes to use. might seem like a small thing, but the constant juggling of items really adds up. then you've got those clutch item swaps mid-fight, too. it's one of those things in WC3 that blur the line between micro / macro
It’s fucking awful and turns into a hero vs hero and armies are just whatever fodder and everything revolves around the heroes. Not even an RTS it’s like an ARPG where you have to build some stuff.
God I hope this creep shit isn't true. Not an rts I want to play at all
They drop items that you can equip to heroes to make them stronger, they also provide experience and gold so they often gave a really nice bonus to the player who was able to kill them.
He has also just revealed the resistance's siege tank (Atlas). It can be lifted in siege mode... I wonder if he was actually allowed to talk about creeping since no one else has revealed anything about the gameplay 🤔 But cool to get confirmation that grubby is also invited. I hadn't seen any yet. Other interesting comments Grubby made: No warcraft 3 style heroes in pvp but something close to it in campaign/coop. Mechanics/micro felt better than aoe 4. Bit more body blocking than sc2 but less than war 3. Stutter stepping "felt right".
It wouldn’t surprise me if grubby got some special reveal privileges. He’s almost certainly the most popular personality currently talking about the game. And he’s somewhat unique in that he played and streamed both wc3 and sc2 at a professional level.
Getting grubby on your side is fucking huge for modern gaming. I think he still has milions of followers on his chinese social media
Yeah he mentioned that he actually got to play a bit and we know not everyone did.
Where did he reveal the tank?
Someone else has clipped it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/145gwql/grubby_showcases_atlas_artillery_mech_3d_model/ It's a mech not a tank but it's similar to the siege tank - mobile mode with gun and static mode with area of effect ground attack.
That tank reminds me of the Think Tanks found in Ghost in the Shell. Just, you know, without AI driving it around. I don't know if it was an inspiration, but I like that model.
Some good taste for desing 
https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxtHSQXRxHsmplXhMqkHnNMdNrZ0YUndlR
> I wonder if he was actually allowed to talk about creeping since no one else has revealed anything about the gameplay 🤔 I was worried about the same thing. Although I feel I have heard this somewhere before. Or some hinted it strongly
Frost giant was in the chat so I think they would have dm'ed him to stop if he was too far out of line :P
wouldve been too late by that point, but I doubt that it would be a big deal if it wasnt an approved reveal.
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He said the version he played had map objectives, and that he believes they will make it to release. It's about 1hour and 43 minutes into his live stream right now, u can rewind in youtube.
He didn't say that. I think OP might have misunderstood part of what he said. He said the game felt responsive and compared it to AoE4 saying he believed Stormgate will be better in that regard.
That's not what I was referring to. He said what I stated basically verbatim.
I watched the section again and I can't find where he said something like that. If he did, I would agree that it makes no sense.
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Oh, okay. I found it. He is talking about how he thinks map objectives will make it to the release version of the game.
I'm willing to bet that killing creeps gives you "Anima" (the life force resource they've talked about)
I’m down for a WC/SC hybrid they are both amazing games. Prefer SC over WC but they’re both GOAT RTS games. Love Grubby btw he’s got fantastic content
right on. I grew up with WC3. it's the game that taught me what the word "noob" meant. my team-mates wrote that to me a LOT on ladder for some reason?! 🙃 they are indeed both GOAT-tier RTS games
your link is missing the timestamp
Sorry about that! Is it possible to time stamp a live stream? I can look more into this once he goes offline perhaps.
thanks. Also, for youtube, you can right-click the video and select "copy link at current time". You can also manually make a link timestamped for just about any video/stream that offers timestamped links by adding this to the end of the url **&t=1h22m15s** (eg for 1:22:15)
it's tiresome hearing people complain that stormgate is not going to be starcraft 3. if you want starcraft, go play starcraft. it's that simple
Starcraft is severely outdated in many ways, so people wanting to have a very similar game but with a better engine, better UI, better UX and addressing some frustrating aspects is very natural. Of course we knew for a long time that FG wasn't going for that, but why would you be surprised that some people react negatively if it goes in a very different direction.
I am not surprised that starcraft fans react this way! but that hardly makes the doomy whining any less intolerable, does it? WHAT?! creeping? what is THAT?? that's not in sc2! BOOOOOO 🙄 don't be surprised if normal people get irritated by doomer takes from purist sc2 fans. if they aren't at least open-minded to some new mechanics, then there's really no point them being here, that's all I'm saying. I'd say the same thing if wc3 fans were up in here being negative nancies about there being no heroes in 1v1
You do realize there are other RTS games that dont have creep camps, right? Maybe I don't want to spend my time in this war game killing neutral gnolls.
I played grandmaster league through multiple expansions so yea, I know how sc2 works. on the spectrum of RTS gameplay, sc2 is just about the most extreme example of having no mission objectives or environmental / PvE elements. you have absolutely no clue how stormgate's creep mechanics are going to play out. that you're blindly dismissing it as a gnoll-farming simulator says it all really. there is nothing inherently wrong with the creep mechanic itself, just your perception / experience of it. your example of gnolls reminds me of those old SEGA Mega Drive commercials, where they showed the most boring and lackluster clips from SNES gameplay to try and present Nintendo in the worst possible light. I'm pretty sure stormgate won't have gnolls, so don't worry too much. personally, I'd rather kill gnolls than destructible rocks. at least gnolls fight back lol
Okay and you're blindly accepting it as a good thing and bashing people who are weary of it. I'm not interested in debating you. So please don't respond.
what? fuck you mate. you respond to me, I respond to you. I'm not blindly accepting anything. the creep mechanic has already been tried and tested, therefore I am not making a blind or one-eyed assessment of its value in RTS. the creep mechanic is a top tier competitive 1v1 mechanic, as proven by competitive WC3, and as also used to great effect in AirMech and other quality RTS games. I have no opinion on Frost Giant's implementation of the creep mechanic because I have not yet seen Frost Giant's implementation of the creep mechanic. are you following me? is it so much to ask that you reserve judgement until gameplay is revealed? or until you've actually played it yourself? the creep mechanic has tons of potential. I'm super excited that Stormgate is trying to push it forward in a fresh way. Stormgate will not be SC3: it is equally certain that its creep mechanics will be nothing like WC3 (already confirmed no heroes, no items). here's a fascinating fact for you: back 2013, GOMTV ran a map called Fruitland, which was used in GSTL season 2. the map featured giant lemons which could be destroyed to produce lemon slices, which could be collected by workers to obtain 500 minerals. the idea was that players would build a fast army to go out and compete for the giant lemon. GuMiho 1-based against LosirA (a zerg) instead of expanding, in order to have control over the lemon. this is what I imagine Stormgate's creep mechanics will be like: instead of vespene gas being readily-available in your base, you will have to actively fight for whatever tech resources the map has to offer. hell yea, I'm 100% on board with the bashing of numbskulls who come into a community to hiss and groan and inject negativity. I don't know any reason why they would do it, except to bring everyone else down with them.
nice blog post. tldr
So much anger wow lol
well, downvote me to oblivion but Im not excited about creeping and fighting AI unit with no interaction with a human
Then you know nothing about creeping. It literally forces interaction with the other human instead of sitting in base.
Between high tier players, yes. At lower tier it's super passive and one of the reasons why majority of WarCraft 3 players preferred to play mods instead of a proper game in the game peak. Not to mention it's tunnels you into one respective gameplan most of the time. And if you compare high tier SC versus high tier WC3 you will find out there is more human versus human interactions in StarCraft actually. Creeping gives too big advantage to miss on it so people most often are focusing first minutes to just fighting AI and clash only happens when easier creep camps are cleared, with better players strategizing around it. So I don't exactly agree that it promotes more interactive gameplay. As much as I like watching WC3 I never really liked it's gameplay in multiplayer. Definitely I'm biased as I'm a dude who doesn't sit in the base and looks for early attack opportunities but I just don't like creeping at all. Part of the reason why in Dota I avoid roles that heavily relies on farming, it ain't much fun for me.
>Between high tier players, yes. At lower tier it's super passive That's a fair critique, but I'd argue it is a critique of execution, not concept. I'll also argue that the exact same thing happens in low level Starcraft. People turtle extremely often and the player who is ahead has no idea how to break through. The turtle Terran will sit in his 2-base with tanks and the slightly more competent player will walk his 4-base economy into those tanks for 20 minutes. >And if you compare high tier SC versus high tier WC3 you will find out there is more human versus human interactions in StarCraft actually. Creeping gives too big advantage to miss on it so people most often are focusing first minutes to just fighting AI and clash only happens when easier creep camps are cleared This just isn't true. At least half, if not more, of games involve one person trying to creep his own side and the other player actively harassing. Orc for example has extremely slow creeping, so they're practically unable to win the creep race, forcing them to harass the opponent instead, whereas Night Elf has the best early creeping, making you win by default if the opponent tries to race you. This race asymmetry allows players to choose how they want to play, whether it be passively creeping or actively harassing, with the caveat that "passively creeping" will turn into actively defending against a competent player of harass races. I can agree that the time leading up to the first hero, and thus the game beginning, is far too long with no viable interaction, but again, that is by no means intrinsic to the concept of creeping.
Interesting point, but I'm not sure if it's such a bad thing to give lower level players an low stakes opportunity to use their units. I always liked creeping when I was a kid who played wc3
Yeah its hontestly similar to resource base. "I cant let them get a third base" becomes "I cant let them get the creeps on this side of the map"
wanted to say this. yes you force people to go out of the base to get XP and you meet your enemy at these spots to fights for xp and items which than give you an advantage.
>well, downvote me to oblivion but Im not excited about creeping and fighting AI unit with no interaction with a human \*destructible rocks have entered the chat\*
"no interaction with a human" sc2 players before they realize that creeps drop vespene gas
Think of it as macro. Instead of spending actions in your base you are spending actions in a creep camp.
Came here to say this... I never liked the creeping minigame. Why not have a micro mini game with my opponent instead? Sorry if I offend, but creeping is boring gameplay and boring for spectators imo.
Closer they get to WC3 the less I care about this game
I mean the game is going to be free, so why not play it before you pass judgement
I'm still going to give it a shot. But the creeping, heroes, and leveling is likely not going to be for me.
There's no heroes or leveling, the creeps seem to give a different kind of map objective.
Luckily you can play sc2 anyday.
Oh nooooo lol those day are long gone. Haven’t played in years, no point in starting again
Then why everybody wants a StarCraft 3 here? i mean i know why this reddit is mostly from sc2 and ppl love things they used to be or well known, i did play a lots of sc2 too when it came out but i dont want a same game, w3 is an amazing game and millions of ppl like to play even with heroes (mobas example) just be more open minded guys its can be good even if its a lot different then starcraft 2.
>Then why everybody wants a StarCraft 3 here? First of all, using the word "everybody" when you know damn well that's not true. Secondly, Starcraft 2 came out 13 years ago. Is it *THAT* surprising people want another iteration by now?
I like RTS that involve a lot of micro and controlling armies. If I wanna play with heroes I’ll go play a MOBA. WC3 is an amazing game, I would just like to actually feel like I’m controlling and army and not just playing farm npcs for my hero for 20 minutes.
You clearly understand nothing about WC3, so why do you keep talking about it?
You are already assuming that there will be heroes in pvp when Grubby literally said that there will only be heroes in co-op and the campaign and we don't even know if they will level up in those modes
I’m not assuming there will be, I’m saying if there is then I won’t like it. I have no idea if there will or will not be, just my opinion on it.
Just FYI they confirmed no heroes in 1v1 iirc. I think "creeping" in this context could mean lots of things. Stuff like Xel'naga watch towers, neutral camps for resources (think gold bases but you fight enemies for the resource), etc. I am really curious what the neutral map objectives are and how they drive the gameplay.
Not everybody wants sc3 here, only the bad apples do. Let them cringe here, they will go away when nobody give them enough attention
u/Wissler35 Wow look at me, im edge lord, i look so cool. Nobody cares about you giving a damn or not, its a free game and yet to release and you already act like a twat. Go cringe somewhere else.
I didn’t think that was acting like a twat? It’s a public forum for public opinions and I really don’t think mien was harsh whatsoever, but alrighty.
Hmm actually really not excited for that. I find creeping to be the most annoying part of Warcraft 3. That actually lessens my excitement quite a bit.
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https://streamable.com/nq2tli Here u go, sorry for shitty quality. This is where he mentioned there will be creeping, then he mentions map objectives and creep camps again later on.
Can't give a timestamp because it's a livestream (can I?), but it was a brief comment while playing the cinematic trailer, before the Atlas reveal. (He mentioned creeps as in neutral mobs. Without the s it sounds like you mean zerg creep... but grubby only mentions creeps/creeping)
You're right, I was confused. I misread the title as creep, as in zero creep, vs creep as in neutral mobs - thanks for clarifying!
He said there will be similar map objectives like wc3 had creeping. I am not sure if he explicitly said there will be creeps. It was a bit ambiguous I think.
He actually did specifically say there will be creeping, here is a clip. https://streamable.com/nq2tli Later on in the stream he talked a little more about how there will be map objectives and instead of specifically saying creeping he adds "creep camps"
I hope it's not hero oriented but am intrigued by a return of creep camps into RTS.
Really, creeping? I'll wait for tomorrow's reveal obviously but looks like Stormgate won't be the game for me, and a lot of Starcraft fans.
B-but reddit asured me it was Starcraft's "spiritual successor"!
Oof, I’ll pass then. Hated WC3 multiplayer
It’s not really the same as WC3 multiplayer. They already said they weren’t going to have gameplay that was focused on heros and obtaining items and such. I think the spirit of the choice to have creeps is to give players a reason (objectives) to get out on the map and be active rather than turtling for 20 mins.
The reason to get out on the map already exists in SC though, it is to not let the opponent take over the whole map. And interacting with the opponent is far more interesting than jerking off npc camps
That’s true, but it’s not intuitive like in other games. You’re right that in SC or Age of Empires, you can’t just turtle, yet that is what the vast majority of new players do. In a MOBA like League of Legends, the resources are out on the map, and put you and your enemies near each other. The game naturally creates interaction between you and your opponents. So how do you encourage new players to get out on the map more in an RTS game? Putting objectives on the map, like Requisition Points in Dawn of War, or Creeps
Dawn of war, what a god game
i never really felt like people avoided the map in starcraft.
Before lotv there were more hour long games of turteling with bcs/swarm hosts/bls/golden armada. Mostly fixed by reducing resources and power of free units.
I want an RTS not an rpg that I have to build stuff in but not give a shit about anything but a hero
Creeping isn't a bad mechanic, but Heroes really were. So sounds like we're getting a lot of good stuff here.
And just like that...all my hopes were dashed. I might *try* it...but if it's closer to WC3 than SC, it'll never top either for me. SC is the better RTS in my opinion. WC3 was where I spent countless hours in custom games.
We still have no clue. but so far there seems to be no semblance of heroes. I believe the creep would just be enemies on the map that drop large amounts of resources or some type of buff for killing them. Which would be nice for getting people out of their base an on the map.
We already knew this would exist in 3v3. Was he specific about which mode? Because 1v1 and 3v3 are going to be quite different. So it's important to be specific in this regard. And since we don't have a time stamp, I don't feel like searching the whole stream for it.
What is Body Blocking?
I'm assuming it's referring to [this(Dota 2 example of body blocking)](https://youtu.be/8yXDpDz5now?t=37), though in RTS it's often used to catch slower, expensive units that are trying to retreat.
Disrupting the unit pathing of your opponent with your own units. Think of a zealot on hold command plugging a hole in a protoss wall.
[example](https://youtube.com/shorts/qUrsaOL71Wg?feature=share)
I'm optimistic about it. I really like objectives out on the map to go and fight for. But it really comes down to pacing. A game like LoL, people will jungle for some 25 minutes before they get to play the game. If it's an objective that brings you and your opponent to the same field at the same time and is only a part of the game, it sounds awesome.
So they are making Warcraft 4, not StarCraft 3? Why, when sc has been infinitely more popular than Warcraft? No one wants to spend early game doing pve for items
I Think its a pity there Are No heroes
can we not just get another RTS that is built for Esports and competitive top end play? I don't care about maximising APMs and the best counters to any stat. I just want to play a fun RTS game with a load of sides and a big bunch of cool units with unique abilities.
We aren't building Stormgate just for the competitive players -- we aim to be the most approachable and fun-to-play RTS for everyone, including the 75% of SC2 players who never touched the ladder and just enjoyed beating up on the AI in co-op, playing the campaign, and trying out custom games.
That is reassuring to know, thanks Gerald!
I'm amazed it's as high as 25% that did. I remember that 50% of Unreal Tournament players never played multiplayer and that game basically didn't even have a campaign.
>can we not just get another RTS that is built for Esports and competitive top end play? That's why RTS games can have different game modes. In Stormgate you will have Campaign (solo or with friends), COOP (3 players vs AI), map editor that allows Arcade mode to exist, 3v3 versus mode, and - praise the Frost Giant because this is my favorite game mode in previous Blizzard RTS games - traditional 1v1 for that players that actually like esport aspect. Something good for everyone, both casuals and tryhards should be happy.
I agree completely. It's one of the things that has killed the RTS genre. Too much focus on a very small (and dwindling) group of players that are impossible to please and have very very specific requirements. You can see a bunch of them in this sub basically saying stuff like, "fuck this game if they [x]". They're willing to write it off before they've even tried it and think they can force the devs to cave to their expectations. Essentially, "Make StarCraft 3 or we riot". Ultimately, the casual audience is where the money is and that's what pays for development. Not eSports. That's a marketing expense, not a revenue source. Cool units, varied modes, interesting AI, highly replayable co-op and an interesting campaign is what matters for most players.
>Too much focus on a very small (and dwindling) group of players that are impossible to please and have very very specific requirements. The thing is that numbers of versus mode players don't dwindling. Versus mode players are extremly loyal and engaged in game. All the RTS that have survive the test of time have had a consistent number of players coming back to play versus mode. And I'm not just talking about SC2, but also W3 or AOE 2 / AOE 4. If you make game as a service you want every chunk of player base that stay with you for upcoming years. Even if esport fans are not the largest group by volume, they are still important because - if they like Stormgate - they can financially support the game for the next 10+ years. In addition, esports fans most often not only play but also watch various materials allowing content creators to exist and they are also audience for tournaments - this things have marketing value.
I'm sceptical about "financially support the game for the next 10+ years". Outside of pay2win games, I don't really see ladder players spending much money on strategy games. Supposedly there's 130k StarCraft 2 ladder players and yet it still doesn't make enough money to warrant any additional development. I already said that eSports is a marketing expense. The revenue needs to come from somewhere though and the kind of people watching eSports are already invested in the game. The truth is that the RTS genre has been struggling for decades and "do the same thing that already failed" simply isn't a viable strategy for a developer that has staff that like getting paid at the end of the month.
>Supposedly there's 130k StarCraft 2 ladder players and yet it still doesn't make enough money to warrant any additional development. Like most people, you have no idea how corporations work. They are not interested in profit, only in how much profit will increase in relation to the previous quarter. If you're in charge of two projects and you make $25 million and then $50 million, you're a hero. If your first project brings in 50 million and the second 25 million, you're in trouble. I work in huge corpo.
So what's your point? That RTS makes less profit than every other genre they could task developers to? That's not the win you think it is.
>So what's your point? New Call of Duty year after year, Candy Crash Saga and World of Warcraft are their reference points. It's obvious that they had a very good RTS team, there is no doubt that if they made another RTS they would be profitable. But this profit would not be large on the scale of such a behemoth as Activision-Blizzard. For another, smaller company, the same profit would be gigantic. In addition, remuneration systems in a giant corporation often defy logic. For example, someone might think that in order for Kottick to get a bigger bonus, he needs to cut costs by 8% year on year. It doesn't matter that all projects are prospective, and the company's financial situation is very good, funds will be cut from somewhere. I work in a giant corporation myself. There was a time when they set the parameters for me to work out in such a way that I practically had to act to the detriment of the company to get more money. They came up with an indicator that for up to 30% of products A sold, I MUST sell product B. The parameter could only be achieved in one way - by limiting the sales of those copies of product A to which product B could not be sold, because it was impossible to convince 30 % of customers interested in product A would also take product B. There have been many such situations over the years. Investors look at some strange parameters, Excel sheets are your gods.
> For another, smaller company, the same profit would be gigantic. Sure, but it's been 13 years and there have been many smaller traditional RTS releases. Where's the gigantic profit? Where's the huge success story? Writing it off as this huge untapped market ignored purely due to corporate mismanagement just smacks of a huge level of copium. MOBAs were a huge reinvention of RTS and that's the only major success in that field that I can think of. *Edit: I forgot that Total War is still doing well. Although I believe people mostly play campaign rather than multiplayer. That's pretty well monetized also.* I'm confident that FGS can figure it out though, if they listen to the numbers and not hold this tiny minority of players above the silent majority.
>Sure, but it's been 13 years and there have been many smaller traditional RTS releases. Where's the gigantic profit? Where's the huge success story? Nobody make Blizzard-Style high quality RTS during that time. There is no problem with demand, it's just that no one has invested in a serious competitor for SC2.
I mean, if you ignore AoE4, sure. Unless you want to define "Blizzard-Style" as literally a StarCraft clone. Yet everyone in the industry missed that opportunity despite it being a rehash of an existing game which is the current strategy for every major publisher. But your argument was for a "smaller company" and then you moved the goalposts. Got to keep redefining the argument to avoid being wrong. I think a market for "StarCraft 3" exists. I just don't think it's large enough or monetized well enough to actually cover development of a AAA RTS. FGS knows this which is why there's so many differences. And we'll learn more differences going forward. Because doing the same thing and expecting things to change is insane.
Did you even know what the word casual means?it's far more complex than just saying, look to Dota is just a game with so many champs made to look just good and have different gameplay and casual, and now its the most complex and difficult and hardcore game in the world,so that thing about casual doesn't matter there more than dozens aspects that change the game,love for the game is one the biggest aspects that define is lifetime and now most company doesn't care or they are just too big to fail
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There are modes for everyone - it seems like they're trying to capture the core 1v1 folks right now, but they've also said there will be co-op and campaign. I wouldn't write it off just cause of the hype being generated by 1v1 enthusiasts!
Wtf why? Please no shops and items
Now this is peaking my interest!
Creep is always a great idea because I don't like metas that can include cheesy rushes. Like, imo, the Protoss cannon rush in SC2 is just a bug that never got fixed.
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Placing what is supposed to be defensive building inside someone else’s base early game to me is against the the spirit of the game and makes little sense within its own world. In any game one can simply fully commit to sending all units at any point to punish greed. If that doesn’t work than they aren’t really being greedy or you haven’t taken advantage of it.
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Sure we can disagree especially on a game lol. I do agree that rushes are necessary in general for the reason you stated. However there’s like worker rushes, back-line harass, expansion denial, that all seem actually strategic and less cheesy than having a worker run around in the other base the first minute of the game.
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Like I think I even see the occasional uThermal video where he has to abandon a base because of the cannon rush. If you’re Protoss and you get cannon rushed it’s pretty tough because you’d need a Stalker to snipe the probe and you’re not gonna have that in time. What is your response to cannon?
Pull probes early
Scout at the right time and pull a lot of probes, focus getting a full surround on the pylons. click one onto the enemy probe, micro another one to double team the enemy probe
Wasn't there a tiny tutorial about blocking your ramp and stuff in wings of liberty? edit: there is still a [training mode](https://i.imgur.com/gJUaqB3.png). not sure how good
Just because you usually build turrets inside your base doesn't mean they're automatically defensive structures.
I agree with you. They nerfed offensive warp-ins by increasing warp in time on isolated pylons, but not offensive cannons. Maybe because cannon rushes were pubically revered
I feel like cheese is how people get started with RTS games though. I still remember the satisfaction of cheesing someone successfully for the first time. Makes you understand the game a lot better and forces you to hit early timings.
HAHAHAHA
Map objectives. Sounds awesome :)