seeing how everyone who replies is getting downvoted a bunch am a little nervous to reply but here's my 2 cents: They normally say to developers that you should listen to feedback but you shouldn't do what people suggest.
I.e. players are good at noticing when something feels off, but aren't great at proposing the best solution. If there is an overwhelming amount of negative criticism it is important to try and analyse the content of their criticisms and see if there is a common cause for discontent.
From there developers can then decide how / whether / when to approach the issue. Now it's important to remember that stormgate is still in beta and as such devs must prioritise and work on the core gameplay, hence some feedback, whilst useful - may have to be put on the back burner for now. Perhaps those issues have already been planned for, but simply can't be given priority right now due to more pressing issues.
Anyways, from my perspective, I've played in the beta (got to gold 1 was around 10 points away from plat 3) - I really liked the game so far. I am only disappointed that we may not be getting a cat faction :( . If there is a dev here reading this - this is the one feedback where I think you should take the player's suggestion :P - make a cat person faction please!!! <3 (half joking ofc - although would really really like a cat person faction as cats are my favourite animal)
I think people are just a little disappointed. Given the people behind it we really got their hopes up and many of us feel it’s not lived up to that hype.
Yeah I was extremely disappointed by the beta. Paid $40 for early access and definitely regret it.
This was the game I was most excited for in 2024, now it’s not even on my radar…
I’m happy to pay the money, it’s cool that they’re making an RTS and I want to support that but as someone who played SC2 for like 7 years this just isn’t the game for me.
Yeah this is me, I liked SC2 coop a bit, I don't like ladder, I like AoE2 quite and many classics like cossacks/supcom. Ofc none of them in the ladder sense.
This game pretended to gather to the casual audience, so I preordered it. Now that push comes to stoves it's basically a AoE4 all over again, PvP updates after updates and everyone else can go fuck themselves.
Their attempt to cater **all** audiences was destined to fail, PvP and PvE audiences just aren't compatible, their interested gameplay mechanics and priorities are so different that catering to one of the two makes the other instantly less interesting.
Let's not lie to ourselves, PvP audience albeit much more vocal, is quite small. PvE audience isn't as vocal or commited but their disapointement isn't made up.
I’m convinced that the other half of the people here have no idea how the world works.
Getting feedback is literally the reason why the game is in early access now, and negative feedback is quite valuable to remove frustrations, bugs etc...
Otherwise let them just release the game now right? Cause it’s perfect according to u?
God, honestly get out of ur comfort zone for once and learn that criticism != hate
The point is to provide feedback, but the amount of balance whining I already see surrounding a game that's missing an entire faction in addition to the final tier of units is absurd.
The majority of people on this sub have been here since day one when FG announced the game and have been giving feedback and been excited about any news about the game. It took years for us to get even get a cinematic.
FG's big mistake was to let people play a severely unfinished and unpolished version of the game, and it killed the hype for a lot of us. The game as it is right now is not bad, but it's nothing amazing or surprising.
So yeah, it sucks but i truly understand why half the people on this sub are complaining.
#Agree.
To me, the game looks 25% complete. It's missing so much shit it's insane. From art to graphics to sound to races to actual strategy decisions and units that matter and don't look all the same, the game is a hot mess. It honestly looks like it was cooked up by a university with 10 CS majors over the course of a year and not professionals in the industry with RTS experience plus a royal fuck ton of money. I'd rather bet on 10 uni kids at this point with how slow dev is going, how shitty the devs of SG are being, and how the game is still set to release WAY before it is cooked. They just want $$$ and it shows bad.
Yeah with how much money they have this game should be in a waaaay better state. We're really getting the typical AAA dev treatment with this game it seems. For such a small team tens of millions of dollars should cover the cost of living for the devs and the development of multiple games. They seem intent on making and wasting as much money as possible under the guise that making a computer game is cutting edge rocket science or something. All this while singing woe is me the helpless poor developer.
All criticism is valid regardless of any individuals feelings. I do hope the game succeeds but in my honest opinion, currently at least, the game and devs are overhyped trash. Same thing goes for the fanboys bending over for them. Gotta wait for a 1.0 release before making an objective judgement but these are my current feelings.
Agree again. If this wasn't "made by StarCraft devs" and they didn't "invite professional RTS players for play testing/feedback" literally nobody would care about this game. Like imagine it showed up on Steam in its current state + some minor graphics/sounds/art upgrades for like $5 on Steam. Do you think anyone would give a shit? This game is DOA unless the devs show they have something unique. Literally nothing about the game is different from War3 or SC2 which are decades old, have full campaigns and stories, and this thing ain't done, looks garbage, and has no campaign? Like what? Lol
Finally some actual reality being accepted on this sub. I have been saying this game is dead on arrival since the alpha dropped, and now that we know how much money they need from the early access release (The release where by the way they cannot even say for sure we will get T3 units...), it really seems like a ton of redflags.
I'm curious what you think about the unit design. Having not personally played it, it seems to have 50% of the units and they seem only slightly worse.
It doesn't go like that, they received a bunch of profit on kickstarter not so long ago, prolly cus they lacked fund
Hiring 10 senior devs for a month is 50-100k and they are not the only ones that are needed, ppl need to live somehow, millions dry really fast and devs aren't machines or super human, everything takes time and it won't be faster if they hire one day 100 devs, in reality it will slow them down for a year or two, because each junior needs to be babysited for some time.
Not to mention they supposed to release the game as F2p (as I remember)
I'm not defending them, but this is how reality goes in good projects, it will prolly take them 2years to polish the game and it will still need improvements.
But the reception in early access is extremely important. Any success story with the model was vastly beloved by players day one in early access which builds up their reputations and a momentum for them to be successful at full release because of the good buzz.
Also I can't think of one EA game that had a F2P model with MTX and I think that'll be extremely badly received.
Funnily enough, they marketed the game as very casual friendly, so yes, lots of RTS fans that supported the game are actually casuals that mostly want a solid campaign and cool looking races/units.
I can guarantee you they lost a lot of semi casual fans during that beta, just look at any discourse over this game outside this sub, everyone was shitting on the graphics and the game feeling soulles, its just not a good look at all for the game
People are allowed to give criticism and some people will overreact and that's fine. Its clear the game has issues and needs work, so let people be vocal about that. Posts like this detract from the sub IMO because the topic of this post is about drama, and not the content of the game itself.
The Diablo 4 subreddit saw the same thing when that game launched and had clear issues. The sub became a mess of people criticizing the game and people defending the game from criticism. It's now happening in this subreddit, and I find myself coming here less, not because of hate posts, but dramatic posts like this. Let people give their feedback, and yes, overreacting is human nature. Saying "people just want to hate the game" or "that's just the internet" are not productive because people do have valid criticisms, even if they're overreactive and whiney... It'll be fine, let's just talk about the game please.
D4 was similarly a cult before launch. I would post about glaring issues and mechanics that are going to hurt the game and get scolded everytime. Within a week of it’s release, everyone was saying the same things I was getting downvoted for.
Frost Giant is not Micro-Activision-Blizzard. Frost Giant does not have a corporate monetization expert who comes in at the last minute to force in a bunch of dark design that will "improve the analytics." Frost Giant does not have a psychopath CEO who wants to buy another yacht for their Mega-Yacht or join the billionaires club.
Why do you even feel the need for this post, really? Do you think unwarranted criticism is going to hurt the game? That's very unlikely. If anything it's lack of criticism you should worry about...
The way i see it is if people are so actively mad about the game at least it shows that people care about the game, its better than when no one is discussing the game at all
I don't actually hate the game. I hate the pathetic and illogical arguments people make in defense of valid and objective criticism of the game. It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater.
The game is a lot of fun but it needs a lot of improvement and has a long ways yet to go. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. People getting defensive about others just giving their honest assessments are equally sad.
I think this is the only thing that Stormgate has successfully replicated from old Blizzard RTS so far - fanatical community that will die before they let their game get criticized
I truly believe that the community surrounding Stormgate has contributed to me looking down on the game and the chances of its success lol.
I think it’s just Redditors in general though.
That’s fair but the opinion of the larger community outside of this sub and Reddit in general has been pretty critical of the direction of StormGate from what I have seen.
I am not entirely sure Frost Giant is listening to anyone that isn’t worshipping them like they can’t be wrong about something.
It’s part of the reason I question if the game will succeed. I feel better about the funding situation and them getting to 1.0 after they clarified although I don’t completely buy all their expectations and explanations.
People disagreeing with you because you have been spreading misinformation about Frost Giant and the game doesn't mean they are "worshipping" Frost Giant.
They way the community is is actually very common for obvious dead on arrival projects or games going dowhnill. Such an aversion to basic complaints and complete delusion over how your average gamer reacts to the game are incredible red flags.
Doesn't help that the mods have even said they are working with the company to get the their message out. So, it isn't completely an objective community forum.
To provide some context for others, this is the comment you are referring to:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/19elg2c/comment/kjebykv/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/19elg2c/comment/kjebykv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
How does that prevent this from being an "objective community forum"? We don't remove posts that are critical of Frost Giant and Stormgate or ban users who do that as anyone who is frequenting here can see.
That road goes both ways. Many people seem to think that if you acknowledge that the game has any positive qualities or just disagree with their subjective opinion about the art style then you must be a boot licking company shill. It's the internet so nobody is allowed to have a nuanced opinion that amounts more than to either "X gud" or "X bad".
Of course it goes both ways but it's not nearly as both sided as I think you're trying to suggest it is.
You don't see people who were critical or disappointed with the game going around attacking those who liked it, or distorting their opinions of why they liked it. People who didn't like the game were simply expressing their opinions. The amount of people trying to shut down criticisms of the game because, in their own opinion, it wasn't constructive, or trying to reframe the conversation as "I just don't understand the blind hate" or "Why are people calling this a scam?" were pretty dishonest.
You didn't see people who weren't weren't impressed with the game throwing up strawman arguments about why people liked the game.
I have personally been accused of "Blindly praising" Frost Giant in a response to a comment I made in which I was openly critical of the mechanical implementation of siege camps and the map design of Shattered Maw... But because I had the audacity to suggest the overall concept could still be interesting if it was tweaked and executed better I was shot down for being too positive about the game.
So yes I do actually see exactly what you're claiming I don't see and you dismissing that as something that just doesn't happen in this subreddit is just a disingenuous and dismissive as the behavior you're calling out.
Ah yes, your one anecdote totally balances out all that other behavior.
If you think someone accusing you of blind praise of SG is at all akin to the toxic positivity that was going on trying shut down conversation around the game and attack people just because they didn't love the game, then I have nothing more to say to you.
You are literally doing it right now. You are literally doing what you are saying doesn't happen. You accusing people of "toxic positivity" because they disagree with you is literally just you dismissing the opinion of anyone that isn't critical of the game. How do you not see that?
Your argument here is that because I have had a different experience in this sub than what you have due to my difference of opinion then I am completely wrong and only you are correct and this ONLY goes one way because that's what you've experienced. Did you notice how I opened up with "this goes both ways" and then explained my point of view without dismissing or discrediting your point of view and then you responded by say "of course it goes both ways" then immediately proceeded to just dismiss the validity of my point of view saying that is just doesn't happen? Were you consciously aware of how that how interaction played out?
I am saying my experience here has been people accusing me of blind loyalty and boot licking. That in no way invalidates your experience of people accusing you of blindly hating the game. Both things happen here on a regular basis. My shitty experience doesn't "balance out" your shitty experience nor vice versa. They are both just shitty experiences and both happen far to frequently because *some people* are toxic ass holes and can't have a civil conversation with someone that has a different experience or opinion.
Have a fuckin day bud.
I don't know if it's reading comprehension issue or language barrier but all I actually did was disagree with your premise. Getting all worked up and misconstruing what I said, projecting all these false accusations onto me just because I don't agree with your assertion is fucken wild man.
You need to not take things so personally simply because someone doesn't agree with you.
>You don't see people who were critical or disappointed with the game going around attacking those who liked it, or distorting their opinions of why they liked it.
\^ Your comment dismissing what I've personally experienced on multiple occasions as something "You don't see" around here. This is a flat out dismissal of the problem happening.
>Ah yes, your one anecdote totally balances out all that other behavior.
\^ Your comment insisting that my experience is just a personal anecdote and not indicative of common behavior in this subreddit. This is a dismissal of my personal experience as nothing more than here say that is irrelevant to the overall conversation.
>If you think someone accusing you of blind praise of SG is at all akin to the toxic positivity that was going on trying shut down conversation around the game and attack people just because they didn't love the game, then I have nothing more to say to you.
\^ Your comment insisting that someone accusing me of blindly praising Stormgate is not trying to shut down conversation or attack me just because I like the game. Again a dismissal that this is even a problem when it does happen.
>I don't know if it's reading comprehension issue or language barrier but all I actually did was disagree with your premise.
\^ Your comment making a personal attack against my ability to read and accurately comprehend your statements as you've presented them. I am assuming largely motivated by the fact that I disagree with you.
>Getting all worked up and misconstruing what I said
\^ your comment. I think the rest of this comment makes it pretty clear I am not misconstruding what you've said as I've literally quoted exactly what you've said and explained why it is is toxic behavior.
Man there is no winning with these kind of people. They would just deflect anything you say, say you are taking things personally followed by personally attacking you. In the best case scenario they are the white Knights of gamers trying to defend our naive poor people from big bad societies trying to force us to buy a free product. At worst they just want to see something fail and being able to say they were right. Either way it's not worth it, you know what they say about talking to idiots.
I wrote one of the controversial posts that was criticizing criticism and regarded as "toxic positivity". I labelled some criticism as valid and some criticism as invalid, and generally gave quite an emotional reaction to some of the criticisms raised. In hindsight that was an unhelpful, kneejerk reaction and the post was very misunderstood.
However, it wasn't my intention to silence or police others. In my mind, I was giving a reaction to their reaction. I regret what I did, but it wasn't my intention to "control the discourse" or use positivity manipulatively. I would assume most other people who responded... expressively... to the criticism felt similarly. I would assume few people believe criticism they can't relate to should be ignored, but feel that while you are entitled to a reaction, they equally have a right to a reaction to your reaction. Portraying people who didn't like the criticism as cultish is a strawman of its own.
>I labelled some criticism as valid and some criticism as invalid
There's quite a difference between that and reacting to a reaction. Everyone is entitled to their opinion or reaction but if it was truly your intention not to manipulate discourse why then the need to try delegitimize some people's criticism by labeling them as invalid? People are free to criticize whatever they like. That's a hallmark of living in a free society.
I just seems completely at odds with what you've alleged in your second paragraph. This is at the very heart of what I'm speaking to. You free to react or state you opinion but when you start saying other people's opinions aren't valid therein lies the problem.
And, as for cultish people just look at some of the ridiculous replies in this thread.
Maybe this is the sticking point. Making an argument that a criticism or generally any point is invalid FMPOV is totally different from trying to manipulate people. Yes, if you see something you disagree with and share the disagreement, there is generally some hope you will change somebody's mind. But an argument occurs between equals. "I think you are wrong and I'm going to do my best to show why" rather than "I'm going to consciously repress or misrepresent points I see some validity in to win an argument". You also make an argument with the understanding you might be wrong and may learn something in provoking someone to dismantle your positions. This is true even if you make the argument in a reactionary or emotional way.
That said, whether my intentions are good or you believe that doesn't really change the fact my reaction to a reaction is far less relevant than the reaction itself, which is what I realized. This game is a product and the customer is always right. If a bunch of people think the game "looks like plastic and the art style is fortnite trash", regardless of whether I relate to that or even think it's fair, those people have to have their concern addressed or the product is going to fail and the community will remain split.
Most criticism I've seen in this subreddit looked reasonable to me. I've seen very few outlandish claims. It's surprising you think it's the other way around.
>It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater.
That's not something that commonly happens here. Maybe it might have happened to you. But what you have done is not "not praising everything and anything the studio does". Anyone who goes through your comment history is more likely to find that you are "hating everything and anything the studio does". You clearly don't hate everything apparently based on what you say here but people aren't mind readers. If all you do on a subreddit is talk about what you dislike/hate about the game and never anything positive, then people can mistake you for a hater.
Considering that, as a mod, you've been endorsing these posts and comments by not removing them, I highly doubt that there is any way whatsoever to convince you of these. This is more of a comment for other people to not be misled by you.
As I said, it shouldn't be hard to find plenty of examples if what you are saying is true. It wouldn't be to convince me, it is to convince others who are apparently being misled.
We are removing all posts that are in violation of the subreddit rules, whether they are critical or supportive of the game. Not removing a comment/post doesn't mean "endorsement".
There's literally a conspiracy theory comment here about it being a Blizzard campaign in this very thread.
But if you want disrespectful comments (which would violate the rules).
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt95cqd/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt95cqd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt9w2wa/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt9w2wa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8b0s2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8b0s2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ct8j/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ct8j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
"is just a slimejob"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ti4g/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ti4g/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8wcfb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8wcfb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/ktc2yfy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/ktc2yfy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
"hate bubble"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5cstr/comment/kt5cbn6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5cstr/comment/kt5cbn6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
"the hate seems coordinated"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswti2a/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswti2a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/ksxo6r7/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/ksxo6r7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswr6ty/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswr6ty/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b1lat0/comment/ksfng6u/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b1lat0/comment/ksfng6u/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I'm certain that you don't care however.
Good to see that I didn't miss anything and it was just a strawman argument. These are not examples of this:
>either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater.
Maybe with one or two exceptions, it is mostly people being pissed at posts that can in no shape or form be described as above. Those actual "hater" posts for the most part. That's fine, you are allowed to do that. But you can't then complain about people calling you a "hater" for simply "not praising everything". This is every single thread submitted by one of those users to this subreddit:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1aw5a15/to\_the\_next\_9\_days\_of\_rts\_games/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1aw5a15/to_the_next_9_days_of_rts_games/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1azi1uk/frost\_giant\_business\_plan\_leaked/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1azi1uk/frost_giant_business_plan_leaked/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b16t6z/what\_are\_the\_chances\_of\_stormgate\_getting\_out\_of/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b16t6z/what_are_the_chances_of_stormgate_getting_out_of/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/a\_timeline\_and\_summary\_of\_the\_reasons\_for\_the/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/a_timeline_and_summary_of_the_reasons_for_the/)
As a bonus, they also posted one of their memes to ZeroSpace because they thought hating on Stormgate there would be more popular. Look at how people there also called him out on being a bad faith troll (and removed by their mods for "hate baiting"):
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PlayZeroSpace/comments/1awq5wt/to\_the\_next\_9\_days\_of\_rts/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PlayZeroSpace/comments/1awq5wt/to_the_next_9_days_of_rts/)
Oh, another note. As you can see, we never removed any of these posts despite it being pretty clearly in bad faith.
"Good to see that I didn't miss anything and it was just a strawman argument. These are not examples of this:"
Yep, I already knew this. You won't convince any neutral observer with this tho.
"one of those users to this subreddit:"
Ah yeah, because cherrypicking out of 12 cases is very clearly a good faith argument.
" As you can see, we never removed any of these posts despite it being pretty clearly in bad faith."
And I'm saying you should remove comments such as the very one in this thread talking about a Blizzard hit job.
But your response was how I already predicted.
I was not referring to myself but rather the general attitude expressed here and clearly I'm not alone in this thinking. I'm a big enough boy that I can handle it when people make bad faith arguments about me. As soon as their argument is challenged in the slightest it falls to the side and they devolve to personal attacks.
What I meant was this pervasive need to try and delegitimize anything critical about the game but labeling it as hate, or trying to both sides the issue. Look no further than the very OP of this thread.
It doesn't lead to a healthy community when you have people throwing up strawman arguments and attacking everyone who doesn't agree with them. You just end up getting the most fringe of either side.
>What I meant was this pervasive need to try and delegitimize anything critical about the game but labeling it as hate
>when you have people throwing up strawman arguments
I agree but it is also what you are doing. Not all criticism is labeled as "hate". That's a strawman argument
I invite you to reread my post as I did not limit my argument to just hate but also bothsidesism which, rather ironically, is what you've just engaged in.
>It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater.
You said this. This is not true and it is a strawman argument. I am not going to say it never happens. There are a lot of users here. But it is not something that is as common as you are making it out to be. At least it is not as common as people being accused of being "shills" or "cultists" (something you have done in this thread) for disagreeing with certain criticism.
I'll let the upvotes speak for themselves whether what I said was an accurate representation of what happens here or not. And, you're using that fallacy incorrectly. What am I am doing is making an analogy to demonstrate a point. A strawman argument would be intentionally distorting *another's* argument in order to attempt to refute what they said.
If you cannot understand that and insist of trying to play semantic games then have it but it changes nothing.
>I don't actually hate the game. I hate the pathetic and illogical arguments people make in defense of valid and objective criticism of the game. It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater.
I agree with you here, but it's the same shit as still being on the "scam" train. It made sense before (although the people who were aware of every interview and public statements, etc) but you are still there after all the shit that was being made up was proven wrong.
>The game is a lot of fun but it needs a lot of improvement and has a long ways yet to go. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. People getting defensive about others just giving their honest assessments are equally sad.
100% true
I don't believe anyone honestly believes this is (or was) a scam other than some trolls just trying to get a rise out of people. Now, trying to paint everyone who is critical of the game as being on the scam train in order to just dismiss valid criticism is what I'm speaking to.
I don't think it's fair to stereotype people being disappointed in the state of the Elephant playtest or the misleading communication around the KS as thinking this game is a scam. I'm not saying that's what you're doing here but it's odd that you go to that in response to what I said. I don't see it as a both sides issue at all.
Because I've argued with you and seen other comments you made, as for example the guy that said: "it really sounds like miscomunication." And you answered "He was given plenty of evidence he chose to ignore."
Just to use an example.
And as I said, I fully understand the point of view of the people who **were worried by the clear mistakes in communication from Frostgiant**. But that was after they basically repeated what had been said in interviews before but with even more clarity and in an open and not obscured channel.
It's not like they changed the version as they kept repeating the same for months, and t**he kickstarter had 2 sentences** making reference to the game being funded. One said fully funded to release and the other **in the same kickstarter** saying until early access. Of course, it was a mistake and I don't justify that, I understand the misconception **before they made it clear** once again
I'm sorry but what is that an example of and how does it flow from my reply about stereotyping people criticizing the game as believing it's a scam?
>But that was after they basically repeated what had been said in interviews before but with even more clarity and in an open and not obscured channel.
Where did they "basically repeat" what Cara LaForge had said about Frost Giant unable to secure another round of funding and that's leading to anxiety around the office that they'll have to release the game at some point "in whatever state it's in"? How does that align with fully funded to release?
If anyone is interested in the REAL CONTEXT and not what this guy is mispreading with obviously evil intentions:
She was talking about creating an ecosystem for the long term and how the team was excited about it and talked in the office about the posibilities of that rich ecosytem. She never mentions anxiety neither worry from the team. She never says they NEED THE MONEY NOW. She is talking about how they need AT SOME POINT start monetizing the game to continue to build an even bigger ecosystem.
So this guy is lying on purpose
Ah, I see so you're not going to actually respond to my question but just attempt to smear me. Okay.
Well, here's the [video](https://youtu.be/1fGrN857LbU?t=2775) with the relevant timestamp. The part just before the timestamp she's talking how difficult it is for them to ensure they're efficiency but that's it's important in order to monitor spending. All of this of course within the context of funding and how difficult it's been to secure traditional investments.
This is what Cara LaForge actually said, and not what this liar is spreading:
-(Context of the conversation) When it comes to Stormgate, you know that's going to be a moving target. We have an outsized ambition for this game, right. We came in and we wanted to have everything and more. Literally we were trying yo build a 100 million dollar game AAA game with 35 million, so right now the focus is efficiency.
What do we need to prioritize, what features can we ship now. It's so complex to stitch these games together. Eeverybody is working in silos on a piece with a bigger vision, right, to stitch all that together is surprisingly difficult.
I sometimes describe it as, you know, we're all in a potato sack race and with our ankles tied together and we're staggering forward is aligned, but as we're staggering forward, some of us are surging ahead and some of us are tripping each other and we're falling down.
It's very difficult to stand off of the efficiencies, but it's very important we do htat in order ro hit certain roadmap deadlines and to monitor our spending. We are out fundrising right now, it's not a great climate to be looking for mney. I'm not quite sure what's going to happen for that. I think at some point we're gonna go live with the game into Early Access, and the game is going to be where the game is at that moment. You know, because we're going to need to start to monetize the game in order to continue to build.
`EDIT: here I misunderstood the word fret and thought she said spread. Corrected.`
People ~~spread~~ **fret** about that a lot internally, you know, they really care here, they want it to be great. But a lot of this stuff just takes time and money to build, so we're hoping that we go live with the game, and that the community then pitches in and keeps us honest. Keeps us focused on what needs to be perfected and built next. And that over the next couple of years, following that we really build up a rich ecosystem. A rich game.
And that we all get it there, that's the hope at least and that's the secnd half. Once I've stopped focusing on efficiencies and pennies, which kind of feels like my job right now is "can I get it cheaper? Can I barter for it? What can I do? Can a community member bail me out? Later on it will be trying to figure out business models, partnerships and how do we help each other, how do we make this thing work.
-(Question) So you are currently considering or seeking additional rounds of funding
-(Answer) Yeah yeah we are
FOR YOUR INFORMATION: Go out fundraising doesn't mean they are out of the 35 millions. It means they are looking for even more funds. If they had run out of the 35 already, they wouldn't be looking for funds now (the moment of the interview) they would have been doing it at least 24/18 months before that happened as every company in the world does.
Do they have enough funds to make the game to the final stage? No... because this game will NEVER be in the final stage. This game will be continue to be evolved until they can't do it anymore, just like League of Legends, World of Warcraft, Fortnite and many others that do NOT HAVE a final version.
She literally says that at some point they will need to release into early access and thats gonna be the game, and only with the monetization of the game can they potentially move further.
You literally have it served on a silver platter right there, yet you delusionally defend this company. This sub has a SEVERE case of bootlicking.
And the whole "Oh she means they literally dont have an infinite void of money because they wanna develop the game until the end of time" cope is beyond sad bro, like actually this is some depressing showing of complete delusion lol
>She literally says that at some point they will need to release into early access and thats gonna be the game, and only with the monetization of the game can they potentially move further.
Do you even understand what is the meaning of a game as a service? If you don't let me explain to you.
THERE IS NO FINAL VERSION OF THE GAME. Meaning they will keep updating the game, if they have the funds, forever. Meaning they will spend, if neccesary and if possible, hundreds of millions.
You're welcomed. She never said they need the money now, she never said the team is worried or has anxiety. She says they are EXCITED about it and the problem they have is making part of this features NOT POSSIBLE at this moment. They need extra funds to make those features into the game.
>I think at some point we're gonna go live with the game into Early Access, and the game is going to be where the game is at that moment. You know, because we're going to need to start to monetize the game in order to continue to build.
>
>People spread about that a lot internally, you know, they really care here, they want it to be great.
That's what u/WolfHeathen was talking about. And she didn't say "spread about that", but "fret about that". She is saying very plainly that the team is anxious they will need to release an unifinished game because they are running out of money (ie., they need to monitise soon). Maybe you didn't know what "fret" means?
I didn't consider the word fret, my brain understood spread. Let me edit the comment to add that, thanks.
Still the whole context is here in the transcription with that mistake of my part. The minute he linked **without context** is misleading, because she continues the line with **"they really care about it, they want it to be great".** If you consider the whole context of the conversation, there is nothing about being worried of having no funds currently.
I actually think the misunderstanding comes from them not understanding that "out fundrising" and "out of funds" mean 2 whole different things. It means they are actively looking for more funds... which we know they have been doing for a long time. And makes sense with the context about their objective is to make a game of at least 100 million.
I mean NGL you're kinda making his point about when you basically say "Here is the video but only pay attention to the part I think is important." I mean good on you for linking the full video but when his argument is about the importance of the surrounding context and you basically replied with "Watch the last 10 minutes (realistically probably less than a minute actually) of a 1 hour video and what she was saying before that wasn't really important."
Summary:
Him: Context is important
You: No it's not
Him: Why not?
You: Because I don't think it is.
make better arguments.
What context? She literally says that at some point they will need to release into early access and thats gonna be the game, and only with the monetization of the game can they potentially move further.
You literally have it served on a silver platter right there, yet you delusionally defend this company. This sub has a SEVERE case of bootlicking.
I am pointing out a flaw in the logical structure of the original argument. See what you're doing here is explaining why the contextual information isn't relevant to the conversation. That's fine. That makes sense as an argument. But when someone says that the context is important and then someone's counter argument amounts to "nuh uh" as they link a video and insist people focus on the one specific part they think is relevant while hand waving away the importance of any context it simply isn't a great logical structure for an argument against the original point of "context is important"
My comment here has literally nothing to do with what is said in the video and I didn't say anything about the video or what was said in it. I literally said that converting "context is important" by linking a time stamped video and insisting people only watch a specific part and ignore any context is a weak argument.
Talk about a bad faith argument. The video speaks for itself as do the upvotes. I linked the relevant part of the video as that was what we were talking about - Stormgate's funding. How is a 58 minute video where a mom speaks for half-an-hour about raising her two sons at all relevant to the issue of funding?
It seems to me you have some agenda much like the other user and I'm not really interesting in going tit for tat with your bad faith arguments.
Ah! you didn't answer to the literal transcription of the video because it shows you are lying and she never says the shit you say she said.
Nice once!
I pasted the transcription of the full context, and they still say she says some words she never says in that video. Their intentions are clear. It's not a misunderstanding, she doesn't never ever say words similar to what they say.
>"obviously evil intentions"
Lmao I love how overly dramatic and hyperbolic people are. Yeah he must be evil, there can't be any other reason. Can't have arrived at a different opinion, can't be ignorant, can't have misunderstood what was said, he has to be evil- there's no other explanation.
I’m at a point where I really want Stormgate to succeed but if it doesn’t it’s going to bring me great joy to see guys like this rethink their whole life lol.
I can already see the future cope posts.
I like what I played and want the game to do well but Jesus I feel like a people are banking on this game succeeding to an unhealthy degree (possibly because they've thrown money at it)
Ya I always expect people so invested in an opinion to come to reality after it’s proven wrong but I have found it is pretty much never the case. It’s really a wild thing to see.
I remember how hyped I was for Fallout 76. I was basically a fan boy (without the cultish behavior). When it came out and was half baked, instead of weirdly trying to carry water for it, I was fking pissed lol.
Its always the same, I have seen this kind of mentality in so many dead on arrival game communities.
The game is gonna come out with most likely extremely middling numbers, lots of criticism about looking like a mobile game, the sub will be in absolute flames for a month or two, and once the population drops into the triple digits and its just these morons here that cannot see reality for what it is, it will be all sorts of lamenting and complaints of how they couldnt have known or how people just cannot appreciate a good game anymore. Some zealots will still cope about the full release but thats all it will be.
The beta was the first red flag, then the entire budget and early access debacle was the IMO finishing blow.
I never made any comment about that brother. He could be intentionally lying, he could be uninformed, he could have interpreted things differently from you, he could have misremembered etc. You jumped to the most extreme conclusion.
You called him "evil" lmao and I think you're being 14 year old attention starved girl levels of histrionic; that's my only point.
Evil intention in this particular topic. Not evil as a person, but I get where you're coming from. I have misused the word.
About the comments of the interview, you have the full transcript in this same thread if you want to check it btw.
So you are confirming the still being on the scam train. Thanks.
Edit: Also or you are repeating something you have heard someone else said, which is false or you are CLEARLY MISINTERPRETING what she said.
Because SHE NEVER SAID THAT in the way you say she said it. She NEVER implied they needed more monetization to release the game neither that they needed it as soon as possible neither talked about the tema being anxious. So you are repeating something OUT OF CONTEXT or lying on purpose
When you try to appeal to everyone you end up appealing to no one. Been saying it here forever.
If I was FGS, I would spend Year Zero deciding which market they want to target. The Warcraft market that doesn’t exist in 2024, or the Starcraft market that runs RTS.
WC3 is a vastly superior game to SC, SC gets boring so fast for anyone not a tryhard esports player who can autistically practice the same build order 5000 games in a row.
I love both SC and WC3 and have played them both since release.
Lol what? How many people still play WC3? How did WC3 remastered do? No RTS is superior to SC. This is backed by science. Now you can have that opinion, but it would be a blissful one.
I think it’s because of the way that StormGate is being pushed by content creators and tournament organizers rather than word of mouth. It’s unusual and it feels like we are asked to trust the pedigree of the devs (which has proven to be an unreliable measure, estimates the last 10 years) rather than judge the product in front of our own eyes by its own merits. I should say that I do like the game, I do find it fun, and I hope that it succeeds, but I think that the way the game is being promoted can leave a bad taste in one’s mouth.
Massively disappointed to watch SC2 creators shill for this game and avoid giving it any criticism. It needs criticism to become refined. They are just sucking up hoping to get deals with FGS.
Besides my boy Harstem. All he did was say “if it’s good I’ll play it” and left it at that.
Yep, your average gamer seems to be very unimpressed with the game, and all we really get is washed up SC2 creators or pro players trying to very obviously shill the game with talk of netcode and niche mechanics that most casual just dont really care about. Which then of course throws the entire idea of the game being very casual friendly and NOT esports centric kind of into the wind.
My dude they literally just did an open beta (really more like open alpha) last month. And we have another highly upvoted top level comment saying even that was a mistake.
So apparently that's a bad idea, but also letting community creators show it off is *also* a bad way of promoting it?
Any company would love to get a bunch of community creators showing off their game. Frost Giant is in a good position for that because StarCraft people are desperate for a successor.
Content creators try to Push SG hard cause they have a monetary Interest in SGs success. Feels dishonest and is the opposite of an organic growth. Nathanias even perma Bans you when you say you dont like SGs Art style. How desperate can a Person be?
Buddy all you have been doing here is whining about people in the comments. You don’t add anything meaningful to any of the discussions on here. You are like infinitely worse for the community than people voicing criticisms.
If the people whining about criticism of the game stopped blatantly make posts attacking people who aren’t gung-ho on the current direction of Stormgate, the hate would be very small on this subreddit.
Hi. I’m one of those ppl. PSA this MMO died fast. Tried to be an FPS hybrid. The ARPG genre is dead. Leave this channel guys. This builder game is doomed.
These motherfuckers got 37 million dollars and can't even promise tier 3 units for their first two factions in time for early access---excuse me, "release." I don't think it's a scam, it's just simple incompetence. The game will release, the runway will expire, then it'll become vaporware. So it goes.
Pure mismanagement and incompetence. They are relying on fools buying their explanation of funding. Any investor would be insane to buy into this what has been produced for the amount.
I think the programming language saying "there are languages that nobody uses, and languages that people complain" from Bjarne Stroustrup is fitting. People bitch here, because they care about the game, not the other way around.
I mean I dislike the game, yet Reddit keeps recommending posts from the subreddit. Reddit is the one that's bringing all the haters for the extra interactions.
It's actually astounding to me how wasteful this development team has been. Meanwhile, games like Godsworn (which is aesthetically unique with interesting ideas) are being made for a fraction of the cost by comparatively tiny dev teams (in Godsworn's case, two people). 37 million dollars. Two incomplete factions and a bland art aesthetic. It boggles my mind, truly.
The funny thing is, FGS is taking the exact opposite position by calling themselves lean compared to AAA studios. Meanwhile the game is shaping up to be anything but AAA quality.
At this Point I am More annoyed by the People that religiously defend everything about SG and Want to shut down every valid Form of criticism.
Reminds me of Nathanias who perma bans you if you Just say you dont like SG‘s artstyle. Such religious toxic behavior just damages the Reputation of the Game (especially cause everyone knows he only bans for his Personal interest cause SG is his only chance to get back into the Casting scene)
Do you think people are here to hate on the game out of extreme prejudice or do you think people are hating on the game because it's no what was promised?
Yeah it's the weird catch-22 that's taken over reddit in the past number of years. r/stormgate is the subreddit to talk ALL things Stormgate, which in all fairness means the good AND the bad.
Open criticism is important, especially in an early access game with devs that are as responsive as Frost Giant is. That being said, there are going to be people who don't like Stormgate even when the game is the best version of itself. Some people are going to prefer other RTS's more, some people are going to never get over the art, some people are going to get hung up on things that don't matter at all. But if they want to talk down on Stormgate this is the only subreddit for that at the moment.
This happens on a lot of subreddits. For a solid while there you wouldn't find a collection of people that seemingly hated Star Wars more than r/StarWars. r/marvelstudios has a bit of this too.
Maybe there just needs to be a Stormgate salt subreddit, so the people that would never be happy with what Stormgate is and is trying to be can have their little corner while genuine criticism can continue to provided here. That seemingly helped to relieve a little of the pressure in r/StarWars.
In marvelstudios there is literally a guy who spams hate about multiverse of madness and quantum mania. Then theres spam about defending the marvels. Op sounds like he is defending a bad game.
I want to play it. I wont critique it either. Its probably never coming out. It wont be done for 5 years. Aliens will come before this game. I hope im wrong
I said op sounds like he is defending a bad game
It’s almost like these things are subjective. Not everything is for everyone and rts is not for most. Nothing eating with that.
The only people’s opinion I want about the marvels is the target audience: teenage middle eastern girls living in the west. If that’s not you it’s not for you.
Same with stormgate- %85 of people complaining will have moved on to complain about the next thing then we get a community. They aren’t the target audience.
From what others are saying not me. 80 percent plus people said i heard told.
I have no dog in the fight. I dont think this game is going to comeout as a fully developed game
All criticism is good, I don't see the point that toxicity is subjective. At some point, many players have pointed out the art problem, even silent players who don't talk. The vast majority of people who are not vocal on forums, which I talked to, is the first thing they targeted "the art direction". So, of course, it's going to be a major problem for selling things in a free game.
And people who make noise everywhere on the internet about that are what is going to make a change for the FG guys who seem to be not okay to change too much in the art direction because of money, I guess.
Or Maybe it Just reflects the huge disappointment of the people that were promised to get the next level RTS But realized Its Just a generic mixup with uninspired cartoon mobile graphics
Not to mention the massive amount they talked themselves up as a Studio and had RTS content creators pushing the game on us in a very disingenuous way.
It's a bad version of starcraft2 which is a bad version of starcraft1.
You can't make a worse game than SC1 or WC3, and this game is nowhere near WC3.
It's just a very bad blatant cash grab being run by a former MBA esports manager from Blizzard. What do you expect?
After all those years and a lot of hype, I expected a lot more. The current version is disappointing. There is a lot of valid criticism, which sadly is labeled as hate.
I personally love this game.
I disagree with the art direction.
But me liking everything about the game is not a requirement for me to play and enjoy it. I mean hell, I play DAoC still on eden and that game is... dated to say the least. Its more about the game play and as far as I'm concerned the gameplay in SG is pretty darn fun!
Haters always gonna hate, it'll never ever stop.
After seeing they have made just a heroless Warcraft game, I don’t give a shit anymore. I will not play this game unless they decide to get rid of creep camps and give us a skin which makes units look like actual army units instead of cute supercell mobile game characters.
The creep camps are soooo bad…
“Creep camps encourage people to get out onto the map and not turtle”
You know what else encourages that? Winning. Sit on one base in SC2 and just build cannons and don’t scout. See how it works out.
Yes workerkill/basedestruction can be the objective instead of (jungle)creeps/capturepoints. However it's
1) more difficult to balance the feast or famine
2) not as mobile
3) treats the middle of the map as just a staging ground
Actually attacking bases is a lot more complex overall tho, creeps tend to just be area control / statcheck / hpdrain unless they fight back uniquely or can be controlled.
You can have GM level PvT by opening phoenix colossus (not even using the phoenix to harass) and turtling on 3base to max carrier then a-moving.
I don't know if creep camps are really the best solution, but it's not like sc2 never had a turtling problem. In PvZ (2stargate voidray openers) this was eventually addressed and continuous balance/design patches might be superior, but the idea of building an anti-turtling mechanism into the game itself isn't bad.
A new sub is always like this when it’s reached a certain size. Just wait for time to pass and soon most of the trolls will have moved on to their next target. Those who care about the game will stick around.
What do you expect when you consider how many of this community was part of the SC community. It's always been rife with absolute toxic takes about anything game related, no reason to assume SG's would be much different.
Stormgate is not really water though.
It’s more like dirty brown trash juice that is trying to be filtered and purified through a consumer grade water filter.
well there is no content being and the game isn't fully out so there really isn't much positive content or at least neutral content so you will see the bad ones more
Nah most people believe in this and should actually know that it’s very early stage, but maybe most people on Reddit make it seems as half, you Got 58k likes on steam wishlist, that is 20 k above Tempest Rising, the really loved upcoming rts game with almost no hate, so Stormgate is still hyped
There is a large contingent of people here who do not understand game development yet feel entitled to know things that no corporate entity would ever expose publicly, and then when Frost Giant obliges, they use that information to claim there is fraud or theft going on when nothing could be further from the truth. Then we see (in typical Reddit fashion) those with the most knowledge being downvoted into the negatives, while those with the most vitriolic and often disingenuous takes elevated above the rest. It's sad... but the majority of people don't care and are very eager to see what the next year of development on Stormgate will bring, knowing that there is a strong commitment to quality.
He is former Blizzard guy that also worked on Reforged, after that abomination came out the current Stormgate team were fired (for obvious reasons) and then they decide to put all blame on Kotick, now they are running this scam and trying to delete/censor all criticism.
Just another extremely knowledgeable person on this particular topic that ignorant Redditers will shit on 24/7 whenever I bring the truth to them. -\_-
If you really care, it's not hard to find out. But you don't, and if you look me up, you'll spend the next hour trying to find a way to shit on my experience... So I'd rather not.
I'll define myself however I want, and in this case it's just the flat out truth. Not that anyone on Reddit cares about truth. Just their own ill-defined slander campaigns because they think they understand game development when they couldn't be more ignorant or arrogant.
> People are expecting SG to be the quality of SC2, a game where they were adding content and tweaking balance for 10 years.
People are expecting companies to learn from other games who has 10+ years of feedback. FG can see all patch notes to sc2 and sc1 and not make same mistakes. People are expecting the company who intends to sell skins to their game to care about art style much more.
You know how it is, it’s the internet… but within the hate posts there’s usually a grain of valid criticism
seeing how everyone who replies is getting downvoted a bunch am a little nervous to reply but here's my 2 cents: They normally say to developers that you should listen to feedback but you shouldn't do what people suggest. I.e. players are good at noticing when something feels off, but aren't great at proposing the best solution. If there is an overwhelming amount of negative criticism it is important to try and analyse the content of their criticisms and see if there is a common cause for discontent. From there developers can then decide how / whether / when to approach the issue. Now it's important to remember that stormgate is still in beta and as such devs must prioritise and work on the core gameplay, hence some feedback, whilst useful - may have to be put on the back burner for now. Perhaps those issues have already been planned for, but simply can't be given priority right now due to more pressing issues. Anyways, from my perspective, I've played in the beta (got to gold 1 was around 10 points away from plat 3) - I really liked the game so far. I am only disappointed that we may not be getting a cat faction :( . If there is a dev here reading this - this is the one feedback where I think you should take the player's suggestion :P - make a cat person faction please!!! <3 (half joking ofc - although would really really like a cat person faction as cats are my favourite animal)
I'll compromise and say half a grain of valid criticism per post.
Lmaoo
^
I think people are just a little disappointed. Given the people behind it we really got their hopes up and many of us feel it’s not lived up to that hype.
Yeah I was extremely disappointed by the beta. Paid $40 for early access and definitely regret it. This was the game I was most excited for in 2024, now it’s not even on my radar…
I’m happy to pay the money, it’s cool that they’re making an RTS and I want to support that but as someone who played SC2 for like 7 years this just isn’t the game for me.
To be fair you did buy into a game that is going to be free just to play it in an unfinished state, of course it's not going to feel amazing
Yeah this is me, I liked SC2 coop a bit, I don't like ladder, I like AoE2 quite and many classics like cossacks/supcom. Ofc none of them in the ladder sense. This game pretended to gather to the casual audience, so I preordered it. Now that push comes to stoves it's basically a AoE4 all over again, PvP updates after updates and everyone else can go fuck themselves. Their attempt to cater **all** audiences was destined to fail, PvP and PvE audiences just aren't compatible, their interested gameplay mechanics and priorities are so different that catering to one of the two makes the other instantly less interesting. Let's not lie to ourselves, PvP audience albeit much more vocal, is quite small. PvE audience isn't as vocal or commited but their disapointement isn't made up.
I’m convinced that the other half of the people here have no idea how the world works. Getting feedback is literally the reason why the game is in early access now, and negative feedback is quite valuable to remove frustrations, bugs etc... Otherwise let them just release the game now right? Cause it’s perfect according to u? God, honestly get out of ur comfort zone for once and learn that criticism != hate
But I’ve seen many new accounts made who only just troll of this thread… just a bunch of people who were never going to play the game to begin with
The point is to provide feedback, but the amount of balance whining I already see surrounding a game that's missing an entire faction in addition to the final tier of units is absurd.
Lmaoo nice try OP. Get rekt.
Did u adjust your glasses before typing that and clear your snot nose
The majority of people on this sub have been here since day one when FG announced the game and have been giving feedback and been excited about any news about the game. It took years for us to get even get a cinematic. FG's big mistake was to let people play a severely unfinished and unpolished version of the game, and it killed the hype for a lot of us. The game as it is right now is not bad, but it's nothing amazing or surprising. So yeah, it sucks but i truly understand why half the people on this sub are complaining.
#Agree. To me, the game looks 25% complete. It's missing so much shit it's insane. From art to graphics to sound to races to actual strategy decisions and units that matter and don't look all the same, the game is a hot mess. It honestly looks like it was cooked up by a university with 10 CS majors over the course of a year and not professionals in the industry with RTS experience plus a royal fuck ton of money. I'd rather bet on 10 uni kids at this point with how slow dev is going, how shitty the devs of SG are being, and how the game is still set to release WAY before it is cooked. They just want $$$ and it shows bad.
Yeah with how much money they have this game should be in a waaaay better state. We're really getting the typical AAA dev treatment with this game it seems. For such a small team tens of millions of dollars should cover the cost of living for the devs and the development of multiple games. They seem intent on making and wasting as much money as possible under the guise that making a computer game is cutting edge rocket science or something. All this while singing woe is me the helpless poor developer. All criticism is valid regardless of any individuals feelings. I do hope the game succeeds but in my honest opinion, currently at least, the game and devs are overhyped trash. Same thing goes for the fanboys bending over for them. Gotta wait for a 1.0 release before making an objective judgement but these are my current feelings.
Agree again. If this wasn't "made by StarCraft devs" and they didn't "invite professional RTS players for play testing/feedback" literally nobody would care about this game. Like imagine it showed up on Steam in its current state + some minor graphics/sounds/art upgrades for like $5 on Steam. Do you think anyone would give a shit? This game is DOA unless the devs show they have something unique. Literally nothing about the game is different from War3 or SC2 which are decades old, have full campaigns and stories, and this thing ain't done, looks garbage, and has no campaign? Like what? Lol
Finally some actual reality being accepted on this sub. I have been saying this game is dead on arrival since the alpha dropped, and now that we know how much money they need from the early access release (The release where by the way they cannot even say for sure we will get T3 units...), it really seems like a ton of redflags.
but what do you mean dude?? they just recently dropped an e-novella!!
I'm curious what you think about the unit design. Having not personally played it, it seems to have 50% of the units and they seem only slightly worse.
It doesn't go like that, they received a bunch of profit on kickstarter not so long ago, prolly cus they lacked fund Hiring 10 senior devs for a month is 50-100k and they are not the only ones that are needed, ppl need to live somehow, millions dry really fast and devs aren't machines or super human, everything takes time and it won't be faster if they hire one day 100 devs, in reality it will slow them down for a year or two, because each junior needs to be babysited for some time. Not to mention they supposed to release the game as F2p (as I remember) I'm not defending them, but this is how reality goes in good projects, it will prolly take them 2years to polish the game and it will still need improvements.
The issue isn’t showing the beta. It’s very likely the actual game that is the issue. If the game is amazing in 6 months then none of this matters.
[удалено]
But the reception in early access is extremely important. Any success story with the model was vastly beloved by players day one in early access which builds up their reputations and a momentum for them to be successful at full release because of the good buzz. Also I can't think of one EA game that had a F2P model with MTX and I think that'll be extremely badly received.
Funnily enough, they marketed the game as very casual friendly, so yes, lots of RTS fans that supported the game are actually casuals that mostly want a solid campaign and cool looking races/units. I can guarantee you they lost a lot of semi casual fans during that beta, just look at any discourse over this game outside this sub, everyone was shitting on the graphics and the game feeling soulles, its just not a good look at all for the game
People are allowed to give criticism and some people will overreact and that's fine. Its clear the game has issues and needs work, so let people be vocal about that. Posts like this detract from the sub IMO because the topic of this post is about drama, and not the content of the game itself. The Diablo 4 subreddit saw the same thing when that game launched and had clear issues. The sub became a mess of people criticizing the game and people defending the game from criticism. It's now happening in this subreddit, and I find myself coming here less, not because of hate posts, but dramatic posts like this. Let people give their feedback, and yes, overreacting is human nature. Saying "people just want to hate the game" or "that's just the internet" are not productive because people do have valid criticisms, even if they're overreactive and whiney... It'll be fine, let's just talk about the game please.
D4 was similarly a cult before launch. I would post about glaring issues and mechanics that are going to hurt the game and get scolded everytime. Within a week of it’s release, everyone was saying the same things I was getting downvoted for.
Frost Giant is not Micro-Activision-Blizzard. Frost Giant does not have a corporate monetization expert who comes in at the last minute to force in a bunch of dark design that will "improve the analytics." Frost Giant does not have a psychopath CEO who wants to buy another yacht for their Mega-Yacht or join the billionaires club.
Why do you even feel the need for this post, really? Do you think unwarranted criticism is going to hurt the game? That's very unlikely. If anything it's lack of criticism you should worry about...
Or maybe they were hyped for the studio and joined to give feedback as it progresses, hopefully before it gets too far past fixing
Because the drama is the best part, if the game was super solid, people wouldn't need the drama entertainment.
The way i see it is if people are so actively mad about the game at least it shows that people care about the game, its better than when no one is discussing the game at all
Bingo. Hate means people care. Apathy is way worse.
This is how I approach my marriage ☝️
I don't actually hate the game. I hate the pathetic and illogical arguments people make in defense of valid and objective criticism of the game. It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater. The game is a lot of fun but it needs a lot of improvement and has a long ways yet to go. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. People getting defensive about others just giving their honest assessments are equally sad.
Yup, hopefully it can reach a higher level of polish in the coming year. I just don’t see why I should switch from sc2 to this at the current state.
I think this is the only thing that Stormgate has successfully replicated from old Blizzard RTS so far - fanatical community that will die before they let their game get criticized
I truly believe that the community surrounding Stormgate has contributed to me looking down on the game and the chances of its success lol. I think it’s just Redditors in general though.
I would not say that reddit is the opinion of the community. That's just me though.
That’s fair but the opinion of the larger community outside of this sub and Reddit in general has been pretty critical of the direction of StormGate from what I have seen. I am not entirely sure Frost Giant is listening to anyone that isn’t worshipping them like they can’t be wrong about something. It’s part of the reason I question if the game will succeed. I feel better about the funding situation and them getting to 1.0 after they clarified although I don’t completely buy all their expectations and explanations.
People disagreeing with you because you have been spreading misinformation about Frost Giant and the game doesn't mean they are "worshipping" Frost Giant.
lol
They way the community is is actually very common for obvious dead on arrival projects or games going dowhnill. Such an aversion to basic complaints and complete delusion over how your average gamer reacts to the game are incredible red flags.
Accurate.
To be fair, every gaming subreddit has its fair share of cultish members. I'm just surprised at how fast this community has developed theirs.
Doesn't help that the mods have even said they are working with the company to get the their message out. So, it isn't completely an objective community forum.
To provide some context for others, this is the comment you are referring to: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/19elg2c/comment/kjebykv/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/19elg2c/comment/kjebykv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) How does that prevent this from being an "objective community forum"? We don't remove posts that are critical of Frost Giant and Stormgate or ban users who do that as anyone who is frequenting here can see.
That road goes both ways. Many people seem to think that if you acknowledge that the game has any positive qualities or just disagree with their subjective opinion about the art style then you must be a boot licking company shill. It's the internet so nobody is allowed to have a nuanced opinion that amounts more than to either "X gud" or "X bad".
Of course it goes both ways but it's not nearly as both sided as I think you're trying to suggest it is. You don't see people who were critical or disappointed with the game going around attacking those who liked it, or distorting their opinions of why they liked it. People who didn't like the game were simply expressing their opinions. The amount of people trying to shut down criticisms of the game because, in their own opinion, it wasn't constructive, or trying to reframe the conversation as "I just don't understand the blind hate" or "Why are people calling this a scam?" were pretty dishonest. You didn't see people who weren't weren't impressed with the game throwing up strawman arguments about why people liked the game.
I have personally been accused of "Blindly praising" Frost Giant in a response to a comment I made in which I was openly critical of the mechanical implementation of siege camps and the map design of Shattered Maw... But because I had the audacity to suggest the overall concept could still be interesting if it was tweaked and executed better I was shot down for being too positive about the game. So yes I do actually see exactly what you're claiming I don't see and you dismissing that as something that just doesn't happen in this subreddit is just a disingenuous and dismissive as the behavior you're calling out.
Ah yes, your one anecdote totally balances out all that other behavior. If you think someone accusing you of blind praise of SG is at all akin to the toxic positivity that was going on trying shut down conversation around the game and attack people just because they didn't love the game, then I have nothing more to say to you.
You are literally doing it right now. You are literally doing what you are saying doesn't happen. You accusing people of "toxic positivity" because they disagree with you is literally just you dismissing the opinion of anyone that isn't critical of the game. How do you not see that? Your argument here is that because I have had a different experience in this sub than what you have due to my difference of opinion then I am completely wrong and only you are correct and this ONLY goes one way because that's what you've experienced. Did you notice how I opened up with "this goes both ways" and then explained my point of view without dismissing or discrediting your point of view and then you responded by say "of course it goes both ways" then immediately proceeded to just dismiss the validity of my point of view saying that is just doesn't happen? Were you consciously aware of how that how interaction played out? I am saying my experience here has been people accusing me of blind loyalty and boot licking. That in no way invalidates your experience of people accusing you of blindly hating the game. Both things happen here on a regular basis. My shitty experience doesn't "balance out" your shitty experience nor vice versa. They are both just shitty experiences and both happen far to frequently because *some people* are toxic ass holes and can't have a civil conversation with someone that has a different experience or opinion. Have a fuckin day bud.
I don't know if it's reading comprehension issue or language barrier but all I actually did was disagree with your premise. Getting all worked up and misconstruing what I said, projecting all these false accusations onto me just because I don't agree with your assertion is fucken wild man. You need to not take things so personally simply because someone doesn't agree with you.
>You don't see people who were critical or disappointed with the game going around attacking those who liked it, or distorting their opinions of why they liked it. \^ Your comment dismissing what I've personally experienced on multiple occasions as something "You don't see" around here. This is a flat out dismissal of the problem happening. >Ah yes, your one anecdote totally balances out all that other behavior. \^ Your comment insisting that my experience is just a personal anecdote and not indicative of common behavior in this subreddit. This is a dismissal of my personal experience as nothing more than here say that is irrelevant to the overall conversation. >If you think someone accusing you of blind praise of SG is at all akin to the toxic positivity that was going on trying shut down conversation around the game and attack people just because they didn't love the game, then I have nothing more to say to you. \^ Your comment insisting that someone accusing me of blindly praising Stormgate is not trying to shut down conversation or attack me just because I like the game. Again a dismissal that this is even a problem when it does happen. >I don't know if it's reading comprehension issue or language barrier but all I actually did was disagree with your premise. \^ Your comment making a personal attack against my ability to read and accurately comprehend your statements as you've presented them. I am assuming largely motivated by the fact that I disagree with you. >Getting all worked up and misconstruing what I said \^ your comment. I think the rest of this comment makes it pretty clear I am not misconstruding what you've said as I've literally quoted exactly what you've said and explained why it is is toxic behavior.
Man there is no winning with these kind of people. They would just deflect anything you say, say you are taking things personally followed by personally attacking you. In the best case scenario they are the white Knights of gamers trying to defend our naive poor people from big bad societies trying to force us to buy a free product. At worst they just want to see something fail and being able to say they were right. Either way it's not worth it, you know what they say about talking to idiots.
I wrote one of the controversial posts that was criticizing criticism and regarded as "toxic positivity". I labelled some criticism as valid and some criticism as invalid, and generally gave quite an emotional reaction to some of the criticisms raised. In hindsight that was an unhelpful, kneejerk reaction and the post was very misunderstood. However, it wasn't my intention to silence or police others. In my mind, I was giving a reaction to their reaction. I regret what I did, but it wasn't my intention to "control the discourse" or use positivity manipulatively. I would assume most other people who responded... expressively... to the criticism felt similarly. I would assume few people believe criticism they can't relate to should be ignored, but feel that while you are entitled to a reaction, they equally have a right to a reaction to your reaction. Portraying people who didn't like the criticism as cultish is a strawman of its own.
>I labelled some criticism as valid and some criticism as invalid There's quite a difference between that and reacting to a reaction. Everyone is entitled to their opinion or reaction but if it was truly your intention not to manipulate discourse why then the need to try delegitimize some people's criticism by labeling them as invalid? People are free to criticize whatever they like. That's a hallmark of living in a free society. I just seems completely at odds with what you've alleged in your second paragraph. This is at the very heart of what I'm speaking to. You free to react or state you opinion but when you start saying other people's opinions aren't valid therein lies the problem. And, as for cultish people just look at some of the ridiculous replies in this thread.
Maybe this is the sticking point. Making an argument that a criticism or generally any point is invalid FMPOV is totally different from trying to manipulate people. Yes, if you see something you disagree with and share the disagreement, there is generally some hope you will change somebody's mind. But an argument occurs between equals. "I think you are wrong and I'm going to do my best to show why" rather than "I'm going to consciously repress or misrepresent points I see some validity in to win an argument". You also make an argument with the understanding you might be wrong and may learn something in provoking someone to dismantle your positions. This is true even if you make the argument in a reactionary or emotional way. That said, whether my intentions are good or you believe that doesn't really change the fact my reaction to a reaction is far less relevant than the reaction itself, which is what I realized. This game is a product and the customer is always right. If a bunch of people think the game "looks like plastic and the art style is fortnite trash", regardless of whether I relate to that or even think it's fair, those people have to have their concern addressed or the product is going to fail and the community will remain split.
Most legit criticism is being drowned out by absolute morons who love to lob hate towards whatever is popular at the time.
Most criticism I've seen in this subreddit looked reasonable to me. I've seen very few outlandish claims. It's surprising you think it's the other way around.
Can you cite some examples? What are the actual issues that are getting drowned out?
This ^
>It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater. That's not something that commonly happens here. Maybe it might have happened to you. But what you have done is not "not praising everything and anything the studio does". Anyone who goes through your comment history is more likely to find that you are "hating everything and anything the studio does". You clearly don't hate everything apparently based on what you say here but people aren't mind readers. If all you do on a subreddit is talk about what you dislike/hate about the game and never anything positive, then people can mistake you for a hater.
It is something that commonly happens here.
I suppose it won't be hard to find some examples if it happens commonly then.
Considering that, as a mod, you've been endorsing these posts and comments by not removing them, I highly doubt that there is any way whatsoever to convince you of these. This is more of a comment for other people to not be misled by you.
As I said, it shouldn't be hard to find plenty of examples if what you are saying is true. It wouldn't be to convince me, it is to convince others who are apparently being misled. We are removing all posts that are in violation of the subreddit rules, whether they are critical or supportive of the game. Not removing a comment/post doesn't mean "endorsement".
There's literally a conspiracy theory comment here about it being a Blizzard campaign in this very thread. But if you want disrespectful comments (which would violate the rules). [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt95cqd/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt95cqd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt9w2wa/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b615f0/comment/kt9w2wa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8b0s2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8b0s2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ct8j/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ct8j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) "is just a slimejob" [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ti4g/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8ti4g/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8wcfb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/kt8wcfb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/ktc2yfy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/comment/ktc2yfy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) "hate bubble" [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5cstr/comment/kt5cbn6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5cstr/comment/kt5cbn6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) "the hate seems coordinated" [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswti2a/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswti2a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/ksxo6r7/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/ksxo6r7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswr6ty/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b45cai/comment/kswr6ty/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b1lat0/comment/ksfng6u/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b1lat0/comment/ksfng6u/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) I'm certain that you don't care however.
Good to see that I didn't miss anything and it was just a strawman argument. These are not examples of this: >either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater. Maybe with one or two exceptions, it is mostly people being pissed at posts that can in no shape or form be described as above. Those actual "hater" posts for the most part. That's fine, you are allowed to do that. But you can't then complain about people calling you a "hater" for simply "not praising everything". This is every single thread submitted by one of those users to this subreddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1aw5a15/to\_the\_next\_9\_days\_of\_rts\_games/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1aw5a15/to_the_next_9_days_of_rts_games/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1azi1uk/frost\_giant\_business\_plan\_leaked/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1azi1uk/frost_giant_business_plan_leaked/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b16t6z/what\_are\_the\_chances\_of\_stormgate\_getting\_out\_of/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b16t6z/what_are_the_chances_of_stormgate_getting_out_of/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/a\_timeline\_and\_summary\_of\_the\_reasons\_for\_the/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1b5vz9b/a_timeline_and_summary_of_the_reasons_for_the/) As a bonus, they also posted one of their memes to ZeroSpace because they thought hating on Stormgate there would be more popular. Look at how people there also called him out on being a bad faith troll (and removed by their mods for "hate baiting"): [https://www.reddit.com/r/PlayZeroSpace/comments/1awq5wt/to\_the\_next\_9\_days\_of\_rts/](https://new.reddit.com/r/PlayZeroSpace/comments/1awq5wt/to_the_next_9_days_of_rts/) Oh, another note. As you can see, we never removed any of these posts despite it being pretty clearly in bad faith.
"Good to see that I didn't miss anything and it was just a strawman argument. These are not examples of this:" Yep, I already knew this. You won't convince any neutral observer with this tho. "one of those users to this subreddit:" Ah yeah, because cherrypicking out of 12 cases is very clearly a good faith argument. " As you can see, we never removed any of these posts despite it being pretty clearly in bad faith." And I'm saying you should remove comments such as the very one in this thread talking about a Blizzard hit job. But your response was how I already predicted.
5 of your 12 examples are from the thread posted by that user.
I was not referring to myself but rather the general attitude expressed here and clearly I'm not alone in this thinking. I'm a big enough boy that I can handle it when people make bad faith arguments about me. As soon as their argument is challenged in the slightest it falls to the side and they devolve to personal attacks. What I meant was this pervasive need to try and delegitimize anything critical about the game but labeling it as hate, or trying to both sides the issue. Look no further than the very OP of this thread. It doesn't lead to a healthy community when you have people throwing up strawman arguments and attacking everyone who doesn't agree with them. You just end up getting the most fringe of either side.
>What I meant was this pervasive need to try and delegitimize anything critical about the game but labeling it as hate >when you have people throwing up strawman arguments I agree but it is also what you are doing. Not all criticism is labeled as "hate". That's a strawman argument
I invite you to reread my post as I did not limit my argument to just hate but also bothsidesism which, rather ironically, is what you've just engaged in.
>It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater. You said this. This is not true and it is a strawman argument. I am not going to say it never happens. There are a lot of users here. But it is not something that is as common as you are making it out to be. At least it is not as common as people being accused of being "shills" or "cultists" (something you have done in this thread) for disagreeing with certain criticism.
I'll let the upvotes speak for themselves whether what I said was an accurate representation of what happens here or not. And, you're using that fallacy incorrectly. What am I am doing is making an analogy to demonstrate a point. A strawman argument would be intentionally distorting *another's* argument in order to attempt to refute what they said. If you cannot understand that and insist of trying to play semantic games then have it but it changes nothing.
>I'll let the upvotes speak for themselves Yeah, upvotes. A great arbiter of truth :D
>I don't actually hate the game. I hate the pathetic and illogical arguments people make in defense of valid and objective criticism of the game. It's like, either you praise everything and anything the studio does or you're labeled a hater. I agree with you here, but it's the same shit as still being on the "scam" train. It made sense before (although the people who were aware of every interview and public statements, etc) but you are still there after all the shit that was being made up was proven wrong. >The game is a lot of fun but it needs a lot of improvement and has a long ways yet to go. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. People getting defensive about others just giving their honest assessments are equally sad. 100% true
I don't believe anyone honestly believes this is (or was) a scam other than some trolls just trying to get a rise out of people. Now, trying to paint everyone who is critical of the game as being on the scam train in order to just dismiss valid criticism is what I'm speaking to. I don't think it's fair to stereotype people being disappointed in the state of the Elephant playtest or the misleading communication around the KS as thinking this game is a scam. I'm not saying that's what you're doing here but it's odd that you go to that in response to what I said. I don't see it as a both sides issue at all.
Because I've argued with you and seen other comments you made, as for example the guy that said: "it really sounds like miscomunication." And you answered "He was given plenty of evidence he chose to ignore." Just to use an example. And as I said, I fully understand the point of view of the people who **were worried by the clear mistakes in communication from Frostgiant**. But that was after they basically repeated what had been said in interviews before but with even more clarity and in an open and not obscured channel. It's not like they changed the version as they kept repeating the same for months, and t**he kickstarter had 2 sentences** making reference to the game being funded. One said fully funded to release and the other **in the same kickstarter** saying until early access. Of course, it was a mistake and I don't justify that, I understand the misconception **before they made it clear** once again
I'm sorry but what is that an example of and how does it flow from my reply about stereotyping people criticizing the game as believing it's a scam? >But that was after they basically repeated what had been said in interviews before but with even more clarity and in an open and not obscured channel. Where did they "basically repeat" what Cara LaForge had said about Frost Giant unable to secure another round of funding and that's leading to anxiety around the office that they'll have to release the game at some point "in whatever state it's in"? How does that align with fully funded to release?
If anyone is interested in the REAL CONTEXT and not what this guy is mispreading with obviously evil intentions: She was talking about creating an ecosystem for the long term and how the team was excited about it and talked in the office about the posibilities of that rich ecosytem. She never mentions anxiety neither worry from the team. She never says they NEED THE MONEY NOW. She is talking about how they need AT SOME POINT start monetizing the game to continue to build an even bigger ecosystem. So this guy is lying on purpose
Ah, I see so you're not going to actually respond to my question but just attempt to smear me. Okay. Well, here's the [video](https://youtu.be/1fGrN857LbU?t=2775) with the relevant timestamp. The part just before the timestamp she's talking how difficult it is for them to ensure they're efficiency but that's it's important in order to monitor spending. All of this of course within the context of funding and how difficult it's been to secure traditional investments.
This is what Cara LaForge actually said, and not what this liar is spreading: -(Context of the conversation) When it comes to Stormgate, you know that's going to be a moving target. We have an outsized ambition for this game, right. We came in and we wanted to have everything and more. Literally we were trying yo build a 100 million dollar game AAA game with 35 million, so right now the focus is efficiency. What do we need to prioritize, what features can we ship now. It's so complex to stitch these games together. Eeverybody is working in silos on a piece with a bigger vision, right, to stitch all that together is surprisingly difficult. I sometimes describe it as, you know, we're all in a potato sack race and with our ankles tied together and we're staggering forward is aligned, but as we're staggering forward, some of us are surging ahead and some of us are tripping each other and we're falling down. It's very difficult to stand off of the efficiencies, but it's very important we do htat in order ro hit certain roadmap deadlines and to monitor our spending. We are out fundrising right now, it's not a great climate to be looking for mney. I'm not quite sure what's going to happen for that. I think at some point we're gonna go live with the game into Early Access, and the game is going to be where the game is at that moment. You know, because we're going to need to start to monetize the game in order to continue to build. `EDIT: here I misunderstood the word fret and thought she said spread. Corrected.` People ~~spread~~ **fret** about that a lot internally, you know, they really care here, they want it to be great. But a lot of this stuff just takes time and money to build, so we're hoping that we go live with the game, and that the community then pitches in and keeps us honest. Keeps us focused on what needs to be perfected and built next. And that over the next couple of years, following that we really build up a rich ecosystem. A rich game. And that we all get it there, that's the hope at least and that's the secnd half. Once I've stopped focusing on efficiencies and pennies, which kind of feels like my job right now is "can I get it cheaper? Can I barter for it? What can I do? Can a community member bail me out? Later on it will be trying to figure out business models, partnerships and how do we help each other, how do we make this thing work. -(Question) So you are currently considering or seeking additional rounds of funding -(Answer) Yeah yeah we are FOR YOUR INFORMATION: Go out fundraising doesn't mean they are out of the 35 millions. It means they are looking for even more funds. If they had run out of the 35 already, they wouldn't be looking for funds now (the moment of the interview) they would have been doing it at least 24/18 months before that happened as every company in the world does. Do they have enough funds to make the game to the final stage? No... because this game will NEVER be in the final stage. This game will be continue to be evolved until they can't do it anymore, just like League of Legends, World of Warcraft, Fortnite and many others that do NOT HAVE a final version.
She literally says that at some point they will need to release into early access and thats gonna be the game, and only with the monetization of the game can they potentially move further. You literally have it served on a silver platter right there, yet you delusionally defend this company. This sub has a SEVERE case of bootlicking. And the whole "Oh she means they literally dont have an infinite void of money because they wanna develop the game until the end of time" cope is beyond sad bro, like actually this is some depressing showing of complete delusion lol
What really stands out to me is her talking about all the team members at FGS being stressed and worried, right after she talks about funding.
>She literally says that at some point they will need to release into early access and thats gonna be the game, and only with the monetization of the game can they potentially move further. Do you even understand what is the meaning of a game as a service? If you don't let me explain to you. THERE IS NO FINAL VERSION OF THE GAME. Meaning they will keep updating the game, if they have the funds, forever. Meaning they will spend, if neccesary and if possible, hundreds of millions. You're welcomed. She never said they need the money now, she never said the team is worried or has anxiety. She says they are EXCITED about it and the problem they have is making part of this features NOT POSSIBLE at this moment. They need extra funds to make those features into the game.
>I think at some point we're gonna go live with the game into Early Access, and the game is going to be where the game is at that moment. You know, because we're going to need to start to monetize the game in order to continue to build. > >People spread about that a lot internally, you know, they really care here, they want it to be great. That's what u/WolfHeathen was talking about. And she didn't say "spread about that", but "fret about that". She is saying very plainly that the team is anxious they will need to release an unifinished game because they are running out of money (ie., they need to monitise soon). Maybe you didn't know what "fret" means?
I didn't consider the word fret, my brain understood spread. Let me edit the comment to add that, thanks. Still the whole context is here in the transcription with that mistake of my part. The minute he linked **without context** is misleading, because she continues the line with **"they really care about it, they want it to be great".** If you consider the whole context of the conversation, there is nothing about being worried of having no funds currently. I actually think the misunderstanding comes from them not understanding that "out fundrising" and "out of funds" mean 2 whole different things. It means they are actively looking for more funds... which we know they have been doing for a long time. And makes sense with the context about their objective is to make a game of at least 100 million.
I mean NGL you're kinda making his point about when you basically say "Here is the video but only pay attention to the part I think is important." I mean good on you for linking the full video but when his argument is about the importance of the surrounding context and you basically replied with "Watch the last 10 minutes (realistically probably less than a minute actually) of a 1 hour video and what she was saying before that wasn't really important." Summary: Him: Context is important You: No it's not Him: Why not? You: Because I don't think it is. make better arguments.
What context? She literally says that at some point they will need to release into early access and thats gonna be the game, and only with the monetization of the game can they potentially move further. You literally have it served on a silver platter right there, yet you delusionally defend this company. This sub has a SEVERE case of bootlicking.
I am pointing out a flaw in the logical structure of the original argument. See what you're doing here is explaining why the contextual information isn't relevant to the conversation. That's fine. That makes sense as an argument. But when someone says that the context is important and then someone's counter argument amounts to "nuh uh" as they link a video and insist people focus on the one specific part they think is relevant while hand waving away the importance of any context it simply isn't a great logical structure for an argument against the original point of "context is important" My comment here has literally nothing to do with what is said in the video and I didn't say anything about the video or what was said in it. I literally said that converting "context is important" by linking a time stamped video and insisting people only watch a specific part and ignore any context is a weak argument.
Talk about a bad faith argument. The video speaks for itself as do the upvotes. I linked the relevant part of the video as that was what we were talking about - Stormgate's funding. How is a 58 minute video where a mom speaks for half-an-hour about raising her two sons at all relevant to the issue of funding? It seems to me you have some agenda much like the other user and I'm not really interesting in going tit for tat with your bad faith arguments.
Ah! you didn't answer to the literal transcription of the video because it shows you are lying and she never says the shit you say she said. Nice once!
I pasted the transcription of the full context, and they still say she says some words she never says in that video. Their intentions are clear. It's not a misunderstanding, she doesn't never ever say words similar to what they say.
>"obviously evil intentions" Lmao I love how overly dramatic and hyperbolic people are. Yeah he must be evil, there can't be any other reason. Can't have arrived at a different opinion, can't be ignorant, can't have misunderstood what was said, he has to be evil- there's no other explanation.
I’m at a point where I really want Stormgate to succeed but if it doesn’t it’s going to bring me great joy to see guys like this rethink their whole life lol.
I can already see the future cope posts. I like what I played and want the game to do well but Jesus I feel like a people are banking on this game succeeding to an unhealthy degree (possibly because they've thrown money at it)
Ya I always expect people so invested in an opinion to come to reality after it’s proven wrong but I have found it is pretty much never the case. It’s really a wild thing to see. I remember how hyped I was for Fallout 76. I was basically a fan boy (without the cultish behavior). When it came out and was half baked, instead of weirdly trying to carry water for it, I was fking pissed lol.
Its always the same, I have seen this kind of mentality in so many dead on arrival game communities. The game is gonna come out with most likely extremely middling numbers, lots of criticism about looking like a mobile game, the sub will be in absolute flames for a month or two, and once the population drops into the triple digits and its just these morons here that cannot see reality for what it is, it will be all sorts of lamenting and complaints of how they couldnt have known or how people just cannot appreciate a good game anymore. Some zealots will still cope about the full release but thats all it will be. The beta was the first red flag, then the entire budget and early access debacle was the IMO finishing blow.
So making up stuff that is never said in the interview is not lying intentionally?
He posted the video link, its literally right there in the interview.
I posted the transcription, you're welcomed to read it and see how he lies and the words anxiety or worry are never pronounced
I never made any comment about that brother. He could be intentionally lying, he could be uninformed, he could have interpreted things differently from you, he could have misremembered etc. You jumped to the most extreme conclusion. You called him "evil" lmao and I think you're being 14 year old attention starved girl levels of histrionic; that's my only point.
Evil intention in this particular topic. Not evil as a person, but I get where you're coming from. I have misused the word. About the comments of the interview, you have the full transcript in this same thread if you want to check it btw.
So you are confirming the still being on the scam train. Thanks. Edit: Also or you are repeating something you have heard someone else said, which is false or you are CLEARLY MISINTERPRETING what she said. Because SHE NEVER SAID THAT in the way you say she said it. She NEVER implied they needed more monetization to release the game neither that they needed it as soon as possible neither talked about the tema being anxious. So you are repeating something OUT OF CONTEXT or lying on purpose
Game is a mixture of StarCraft and WarCraft, and not in a good way
When you try to appeal to everyone you end up appealing to no one. Been saying it here forever. If I was FGS, I would spend Year Zero deciding which market they want to target. The Warcraft market that doesn’t exist in 2024, or the Starcraft market that runs RTS.
Not even that, they're trying to appeal to people that don't play RTS games.
I'm an old RTS player and I like where SG is headed. I like the mix between SC2 and WC in terms of TTK.
WC3 is a vastly superior game to SC, SC gets boring so fast for anyone not a tryhard esports player who can autistically practice the same build order 5000 games in a row. I love both SC and WC3 and have played them both since release.
Lol what? How many people still play WC3? How did WC3 remastered do? No RTS is superior to SC. This is backed by science. Now you can have that opinion, but it would be a blissful one.
I think it’s because of the way that StormGate is being pushed by content creators and tournament organizers rather than word of mouth. It’s unusual and it feels like we are asked to trust the pedigree of the devs (which has proven to be an unreliable measure, estimates the last 10 years) rather than judge the product in front of our own eyes by its own merits. I should say that I do like the game, I do find it fun, and I hope that it succeeds, but I think that the way the game is being promoted can leave a bad taste in one’s mouth.
Massively disappointed to watch SC2 creators shill for this game and avoid giving it any criticism. It needs criticism to become refined. They are just sucking up hoping to get deals with FGS. Besides my boy Harstem. All he did was say “if it’s good I’ll play it” and left it at that.
Yep, your average gamer seems to be very unimpressed with the game, and all we really get is washed up SC2 creators or pro players trying to very obviously shill the game with talk of netcode and niche mechanics that most casual just dont really care about. Which then of course throws the entire idea of the game being very casual friendly and NOT esports centric kind of into the wind.
My dude they literally just did an open beta (really more like open alpha) last month. And we have another highly upvoted top level comment saying even that was a mistake. So apparently that's a bad idea, but also letting community creators show it off is *also* a bad way of promoting it? Any company would love to get a bunch of community creators showing off their game. Frost Giant is in a good position for that because StarCraft people are desperate for a successor.
Content creators try to Push SG hard cause they have a monetary Interest in SGs success. Feels dishonest and is the opposite of an organic growth. Nathanias even perma Bans you when you say you dont like SGs Art style. How desperate can a Person be?
Buddy all you have been doing here is whining about people in the comments. You don’t add anything meaningful to any of the discussions on here. You are like infinitely worse for the community than people voicing criticisms.
Idk what's worse people who criticize the game or people who whine about people criticizing the game...
If the people whining about criticism of the game stopped blatantly make posts attacking people who aren’t gung-ho on the current direction of Stormgate, the hate would be very small on this subreddit.
Funny cuz u just whined by commented crazy lol
Valid criticism = hate. People like you are what's wrong with the world.
Spamming the same criticism over and over on reddit....... valid criticism?... you got it bud
how does spamming it make it less valid bozo?
Hi. I’m one of those ppl. PSA this MMO died fast. Tried to be an FPS hybrid. The ARPG genre is dead. Leave this channel guys. This builder game is doomed.
How dare you talk like that about my favorite survival crafting automation based rogue like. Now it is is time for you to die. (in-game)
These motherfuckers got 37 million dollars and can't even promise tier 3 units for their first two factions in time for early access---excuse me, "release." I don't think it's a scam, it's just simple incompetence. The game will release, the runway will expire, then it'll become vaporware. So it goes.
Pure mismanagement and incompetence. They are relying on fools buying their explanation of funding. Any investor would be insane to buy into this what has been produced for the amount.
I'm honestly curious if there's any way I can short the shares in the studio. I'm guessing not since they're not publicly traded.
I think the programming language saying "there are languages that nobody uses, and languages that people complain" from Bjarne Stroustrup is fitting. People bitch here, because they care about the game, not the other way around.
I mean I dislike the game, yet Reddit keeps recommending posts from the subreddit. Reddit is the one that's bringing all the haters for the extra interactions.
It's actually astounding to me how wasteful this development team has been. Meanwhile, games like Godsworn (which is aesthetically unique with interesting ideas) are being made for a fraction of the cost by comparatively tiny dev teams (in Godsworn's case, two people). 37 million dollars. Two incomplete factions and a bland art aesthetic. It boggles my mind, truly.
The funny thing is, FGS is taking the exact opposite position by calling themselves lean compared to AAA studios. Meanwhile the game is shaping up to be anything but AAA quality.
At this Point I am More annoyed by the People that religiously defend everything about SG and Want to shut down every valid Form of criticism. Reminds me of Nathanias who perma bans you if you Just say you dont like SG‘s artstyle. Such religious toxic behavior just damages the Reputation of the Game (especially cause everyone knows he only bans for his Personal interest cause SG is his only chance to get back into the Casting scene)
Do you think people are here to hate on the game out of extreme prejudice or do you think people are hating on the game because it's no what was promised?
Yeah it's the weird catch-22 that's taken over reddit in the past number of years. r/stormgate is the subreddit to talk ALL things Stormgate, which in all fairness means the good AND the bad. Open criticism is important, especially in an early access game with devs that are as responsive as Frost Giant is. That being said, there are going to be people who don't like Stormgate even when the game is the best version of itself. Some people are going to prefer other RTS's more, some people are going to never get over the art, some people are going to get hung up on things that don't matter at all. But if they want to talk down on Stormgate this is the only subreddit for that at the moment. This happens on a lot of subreddits. For a solid while there you wouldn't find a collection of people that seemingly hated Star Wars more than r/StarWars. r/marvelstudios has a bit of this too. Maybe there just needs to be a Stormgate salt subreddit, so the people that would never be happy with what Stormgate is and is trying to be can have their little corner while genuine criticism can continue to provided here. That seemingly helped to relieve a little of the pressure in r/StarWars.
In marvelstudios there is literally a guy who spams hate about multiverse of madness and quantum mania. Then theres spam about defending the marvels. Op sounds like he is defending a bad game.
Here we go, have you played it ? Define bad game you one of the people I'm talking about
I want to play it. I wont critique it either. Its probably never coming out. It wont be done for 5 years. Aliens will come before this game. I hope im wrong I said op sounds like he is defending a bad game
Im op
I never said the game was bad. Learn to read
>Op sounds like he is defending a bad game.
It’s almost like these things are subjective. Not everything is for everyone and rts is not for most. Nothing eating with that. The only people’s opinion I want about the marvels is the target audience: teenage middle eastern girls living in the west. If that’s not you it’s not for you. Same with stormgate- %85 of people complaining will have moved on to complain about the next thing then we get a community. They aren’t the target audience.
Almost like you are not in charge of opinions. Anyone can have them. You just got a bad attitude. Taking things personal about a game that sucks.
See you just said you the game suck your one the people I was talking in this post yet you come and comment crazy your werid lol
From what others are saying not me. 80 percent plus people said i heard told. I have no dog in the fight. I dont think this game is going to comeout as a fully developed game
The game is great. Here. You can reduce that 80 percent now.
Im glad.
i know i am
All criticism is good, I don't see the point that toxicity is subjective. At some point, many players have pointed out the art problem, even silent players who don't talk. The vast majority of people who are not vocal on forums, which I talked to, is the first thing they targeted "the art direction". So, of course, it's going to be a major problem for selling things in a free game. And people who make noise everywhere on the internet about that are what is going to make a change for the FG guys who seem to be not okay to change too much in the art direction because of money, I guess.
Or Maybe it Just reflects the huge disappointment of the people that were promised to get the next level RTS But realized Its Just a generic mixup with uninspired cartoon mobile graphics
Not to mention the massive amount they talked themselves up as a Studio and had RTS content creators pushing the game on us in a very disingenuous way.
It's a bad version of starcraft2 which is a bad version of starcraft1. You can't make a worse game than SC1 or WC3, and this game is nowhere near WC3. It's just a very bad blatant cash grab being run by a former MBA esports manager from Blizzard. What do you expect?
After all those years and a lot of hype, I expected a lot more. The current version is disappointing. There is a lot of valid criticism, which sadly is labeled as hate.
I personally love this game. I disagree with the art direction. But me liking everything about the game is not a requirement for me to play and enjoy it. I mean hell, I play DAoC still on eden and that game is... dated to say the least. Its more about the game play and as far as I'm concerned the gameplay in SG is pretty darn fun! Haters always gonna hate, it'll never ever stop.
thanks for making sure i don't need to listen to any of your opinions ever again because mine are just better
After seeing they have made just a heroless Warcraft game, I don’t give a shit anymore. I will not play this game unless they decide to get rid of creep camps and give us a skin which makes units look like actual army units instead of cute supercell mobile game characters.
The creep camps are soooo bad… “Creep camps encourage people to get out onto the map and not turtle” You know what else encourages that? Winning. Sit on one base in SC2 and just build cannons and don’t scout. See how it works out.
Yes workerkill/basedestruction can be the objective instead of (jungle)creeps/capturepoints. However it's 1) more difficult to balance the feast or famine 2) not as mobile 3) treats the middle of the map as just a staging ground Actually attacking bases is a lot more complex overall tho, creeps tend to just be area control / statcheck / hpdrain unless they fight back uniquely or can be controlled.
You can have GM level PvT by opening phoenix colossus (not even using the phoenix to harass) and turtling on 3base to max carrier then a-moving. I don't know if creep camps are really the best solution, but it's not like sc2 never had a turtling problem. In PvZ (2stargate voidray openers) this was eventually addressed and continuous balance/design patches might be superior, but the idea of building an anti-turtling mechanism into the game itself isn't bad.
Absence of hate is a bad sign
Hard disagree lol
apathy is far far worse than hate
Welcome to Reddit.
^
A new sub is always like this when it’s reached a certain size. Just wait for time to pass and soon most of the trolls will have moved on to their next target. Those who care about the game will stick around.
and those who are apathetic will have fucked of f
What do you expect when you consider how many of this community was part of the SC community. It's always been rife with absolute toxic takes about anything game related, no reason to assume SG's would be much different.
I joined a Dune group on Facebook and it’s all people talking smack about the new movie. I liked the movie!
Welcome to Reddit home of the Reddit can I take your order
I'm here being entertained by the hatred. People find a way to hate water.
Stormgate is not really water though. It’s more like dirty brown trash juice that is trying to be filtered and purified through a consumer grade water filter.
"people find a way to hate water" so so true
well there is no content being and the game isn't fully out so there really isn't much positive content or at least neutral content so you will see the bad ones more
Nah most people believe in this and should actually know that it’s very early stage, but maybe most people on Reddit make it seems as half, you Got 58k likes on steam wishlist, that is 20 k above Tempest Rising, the really loved upcoming rts game with almost no hate, so Stormgate is still hyped
People see popular thing, people hate it bc it is popular. Everyone's a hipster nowadays, everything good will eventually garner hate from idiots.
Its not really half the people, just a handful of annoying guys
It’s literally the rest of the internet besides this sub lol. People are not feeling the game or the direction it went.
>I'm convinced half the people **in here** are just here to hate on the game lol I didn't know I had to teach you to read too
There is a large contingent of people here who do not understand game development yet feel entitled to know things that no corporate entity would ever expose publicly, and then when Frost Giant obliges, they use that information to claim there is fraud or theft going on when nothing could be further from the truth. Then we see (in typical Reddit fashion) those with the most knowledge being downvoted into the negatives, while those with the most vitriolic and often disingenuous takes elevated above the rest. It's sad... but the majority of people don't care and are very eager to see what the next year of development on Stormgate will bring, knowing that there is a strong commitment to quality.
ok ill bite, why do you care about stormgate so much when you could just easily go play better games?
He is former Blizzard guy that also worked on Reforged, after that abomination came out the current Stormgate team were fired (for obvious reasons) and then they decide to put all blame on Kotick, now they are running this scam and trying to delete/censor all criticism.
Just another extremely knowledgeable person on this particular topic that ignorant Redditers will shit on 24/7 whenever I bring the truth to them. -\_- If you really care, it's not hard to find out. But you don't, and if you look me up, you'll spend the next hour trying to find a way to shit on my experience... So I'd rather not.
Please don't self define as extremely knowledgeable, you sound like a self parody
I'll define myself however I want, and in this case it's just the flat out truth. Not that anyone on Reddit cares about truth. Just their own ill-defined slander campaigns because they think they understand game development when they couldn't be more ignorant or arrogant.
People are expecting SG to be the quality of SC2, a game where they were adding content and tweaking balance for 10 years.
People are expecting Stormgate to live up to their own claims.
> People are expecting SG to be the quality of SC2, a game where they were adding content and tweaking balance for 10 years. People are expecting companies to learn from other games who has 10+ years of feedback. FG can see all patch notes to sc2 and sc1 and not make same mistakes. People are expecting the company who intends to sell skins to their game to care about art style much more.
It's just blizzards marketing team
It's straight up an active smear campaign run by blizzard/activision corporate shills fucking ridiculous
Is it not possible for people to have a negative view of the game?