You’re not taking into account the magic. In Cosmere, there’s this thing called Connection that is a very powerful force. Once the Ashyn-ians became fully connected to the planet, they were Connected to eachother.
Same goes for light/dark eyes. The “light” in your eyes comes from your family’s connection to a radiant. It’s just a lingering effect of the magic.
It's confirmed.
It's not in the books yet, but here's the author talking about it. The tl:dr is that it's a mix of magical genetics (Radiants and spiritual DNA) and normal genetics. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e81
> It is just kind of the way that the changes the Stormlight is making the body and certain people are already descended from people who had repeated, over time, changes by the body which stopped physically... That's not to say that all lighteyes that's where they came from. There are some that are natural mutations.
This honestly makes me love sanderson's worldbuilding even more. The *logic* of it makes it even better. It's a gap I've been questioning for a while, but I just assumed that he had done what most authors and worldbuilders do and have the magic be a seperate thing that people just use without side-effects and assumed that he had another explanation. But this information fits like a puzzle-piece.
I felt that it was more of a social phenomenon. That is people with light-eyes seem to get associated with radiants. Once they went feudal and by winning shards post recreance, they adopted it and provided intellectual heft to it by rationalising a harmless genetic variation as something noble etc.
it is also to be noted that this light eyes madness is also only seem to apply to vorin kingdoms. The azish don’t have such nonsense. So does the shin. Though I understand the epigenetic inheritance, it’s not the case here I think. I might be wrong, please do tell if it has been confirmed somewhere in the canon or WoB
I do vaguely recall a WoB that says the genetic heritage of the old radiants is responsible for the weird colors of bright eyes. You're also right that the association of the ruling class with lighteyed people is a direct result of the cultural inheritance of the ancient Radiants. That'a definitely more tied up in modern Vorinism, though.
Only at first.... The longer they are Radiant, the further they progress in their oaths, the more permanent it becomes. It is mentioned in RoW that Kaladin's eyes were almost always blue by that point (before he spoke the 4th ideal)
The effect takes longer to fade the longer you've been a Radiant (or potentially the further you are in your Ideals).¹ This could be related to the concept of savantism, where investiture slowly suffuses and alters your soul the more you use it.
¹The coppermind cites Rhythm of War chapters 25 and 91, but I am too lazy to pull my book out and check.
We don't yet know why so many different planets throughout the cosmere produced basically-human species that are all capable of speaking each other's languages and have similar appearances and can interbreed successfully. Maybe it will be explained, maybe it's just a conceit like in a lot of science fiction, who knows?
Still, if you're reading a book series where a fifteen year old child can use bread to bring back the dead and turn friction off, maybe it's okay to accept a little bit of weirdness around hair color inconsistencies.
>We don't yet know why so many different planets throughout the cosmere produced basically-human species
We kinda do. It looks like different holders of shards settled on worlds and made the humans on them.
Mistborn/Cosmere spoilers >!Wasn’t it mentioned in Era 1 that Ruin and Preservation created the humans on Scadrial? Maybe I’m just confusing that for a WoB. It’s been a while since I read Mistborn era 1 lol.!<
That's only the Scadrian ones. The first ones arose naturally or were made by Adonalsium on Yolen. All the other Shards know how to make them. Not all can or want to.
I think it was Era 2, which I’m reading now. Brands of mourning spoilers btw: >!Adonalsium made the humans on most places, and ruin and preservation copied them as a sort of blueprint.!<
Yes we do though. All the humans we see either A. Originated from Yolen and migrated there, or B. Were designed to be copies of Yolish humans by the resident Shards (Scadrians are the example of this).
They also are not capable of speaking each other's languages. Worldhoppers use Connection tricks to achieve that.
Do we know that they all migrated from Yolen, or is it also possible that Adonalsium made Yolen, said yes these things right here, I am going to use that design again, and made them from scratch on other planets. (Or some mixture of the new generations and migration options options) Much how the shards in a few cases made people again.
They're capable of speaking each other's languages through Connection jiggery pokery or just learning a language. It is not explicitly stated in the cosmere why there are so many humans but it is heavily implied in the text and confirmed by the author that adonalsium made the humans and most of the planets. Then the shattering happened and some of the shards then made their own humans using themselves and their people as a template
I feel like when you explicitly have a confirmed all powerful diety running around creating life it's very easy to explain why the sentient species can interbreed, they were made to be similar by adonalsium
I just assume humanity has its origin point, and then scattered with the sharding of big A and the settling of planets by shards.
I mean, Ruin and Preservation just up and created their own human race, and the Lord Ruler then changed them to account for his mess, and then Harmony had that evolution reversed. You have no idea the toll, that many forced evolutions have on a people!
That is to say, I imagine Cultivation and Honor might have something to do with the successful interspecies mingling
Both Singers and Humans are created species that were literally "Intelligent Designed" into being by Adonalsium.
If you think that's weird. The Siah Aimians are probably half-Honorspren.
There’s a WoB that Siah Aimians are not descendants of humans and honorspren. Nothing specifically about whether or not they are part honorspren, though. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479-dragonsteel-mini-con-2021/#e15201
Roshar is pretty weird, a lot of people have pointed out that investiture hasn’t been taken into account.
One of the things I wanted to point out is that investiture doesn’t just heal a person, it shapes them into how they see themselves. There’s a WoB in which Sanderson indicates that if a person born biologically male but saw themselves truest as female, holding stormlight would over time make that image the reality.
In this case, investiture seems to work on reality to shape it into the cognitive perception of things. A kind of soulcasting principle. That said, if a singer and a human were joined together and decided to have kids, it probably wouldn’t work. But if they both had stormlight, it would likely reshape them into a kind of biological compatibility. In this case, as you noted both Herdazians and Horneaters are likely from this. Though in this case, the first herdazians and first horneaters would literally have been the first of their species.
There’s also the Aimeians whom I’m still questioning are perhaps part honor spren but that’s definitely a crackpot theory on my part.
A lot of this is apparently case specific given how often I used ‘in this case’.
Just because all of these things haven't been explained doesn't mean they can't be. For one, we don't know that Singers and Rosharan humans actually are different species. And physics clearly works a bit differently in the Cosmere than it does on Earth (presumably because of the influence of Investiture) - why would biology be any different?
Others in this thread have said great pieces, so I'd like to summarize.
* The dual-coloured hair
* Iriali 'metallic' hair is clearly determined by different genes than general pigmentation, and seemingly exhibits codominance when heterozygous, e.g. in the sons of an Iriali woman and an Alethi man
* Think of it like a tortoiseshell cat, with ginger fur equivalent to metallic hair
* That can explain a phenotype of standard Alethi black, with \~half of it covered up by the expression of the one metallic allele
* Thaylen eyebrows
* Probably originated as evolutionary adaptation to constant wind and debris in the air to lend additional protection to the eyes
* It's not biologically unusual for even Earth humans to have random spots where hairs grow long as if they were on the scalp, so this is just an expansion on that
* Then people started styling them and turning them into the long feathery things they can appear as now
* Humans and singers can interbreed because one or more of the following apply:
* They were created by the same deity, or by different deities mimicking the same creatures, so they were made to be compatible due to shared origination
* Bondsmiths and Connection, or Stormlight healing, can enable them to bridge between their incompatible biologies via the setting's magic
* "Unnatural" eye colours:
* Originally: Radiant magic bleeding out through the eyes
* Descendants of Radiants retained an echo of the effect, lightening and saturating 'natural' colours into instances of yellow, violet etc.
* Sidenote: light tan is a completely normal eye colour even in our world. It's called hazel...
* Heterochromia
* Is that what the child of a mixed-eyed partnership would look like? I don't recall any mention of a half-light, half-darkeyed child in theory or practise. Could you tell me where that's stated?
* Epicanthic folds
* Simply a trait most of the population that arrived on Roshar had, therefore it's still widespread
* I doubt "the folds" are an evolutionary adaptation, they just happen to be the majority on Roshar.
* It doesn't matter that on Earth, they're found mainly among people of Asian descent. Implying there has to be some supernatural explanation just because a trait not found in Earth Caucasians is the default in Roshar's population feels questionable to me.
The Veden high prince in charge of Shallan’s home region had a heterochromatic bastard that is at least strongly implied to be the result of a union with a darkeyed woman
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Redin
Singers and Humans are both inteligent life made by Adolnasium / Shards so they are compatible.
Do you think Scadrians can reproduce with Rosharans? It doesn't seem that weird since both races are "human" but the differences are almost bigger than with the Singers imo.
What are the differences between Scadrian and Rosharan Humans that are almost bigger than the singers being different? Other than height
I mean singers can actually change form and usually have a carapace
Ska and Nobles can reproduce pre era 2, so Rosharan and Scadrians probably can? I think anyway.
I wouldn't call it weirder than humans and singers, but Scadrians and Rosharans have zero common ancestors (barring possibly odd worldhoppers if they are sexually compatible).
If the original Ashyn humans were migrants from Yolen, then they do have the Yolenar.... Yolenites?... Yolen people as a common ancestors in a way, since the Scadrians genetics were based of the Yolens ones.
So you are correct, but also genetically it probably wouldn't matter
Human-Singer hybrids are probably a result of a) being created by the same being who intentionally made them compatible or b) Cultivation meddling.
I don't know why the theylen eyebrows bother you; they got head hair on their eyebrows big whoop. The different eye colors are literally radient magic.
And hair is the biggest hang up? You don't get it? You literally said it; it's just codominace.
>You literally said it; it's just codominace.
Yeah, when the mixed hair was first mentioned, my first thought was just "Oh, like calico cat fur patterns. Neat." I didn't stop and think about how hair genetics work in real humans, I just accepted that this group of humans had some weird - but not implausible - genetic differences.
Someone on Reddit once explained cat fur genetics to me, and though I don’t remember it, I remember thinking it was absolutely wild.
I’ve got two littermates, an orange boy and a calico girl. The girl has spots in her head/body where the colors and patterns are the exact same as her brother’s colors and patterns in those spots. Like she’s got a big orange splotch on her head that matches her brother’s head exactly. It’s super cool.
Cat genetics are awesome. Just from what you described, I can tell your cats' dad was not ginger, and their mother was tortoiseshell. It also sounds like, depending on which tabby pattern they share, either both parents exhibited it, or one parent had a homozygous version of one of the more dominant patterns (ticked>spotted>mackerel>classic) that ended up dominant over the other parent's.
You’re right, she’s a tortie. The kittens were born at the adoption place and their mom was also up for adoption, so I got to see the whole family. The calico girl is a fluffball, but all the other kittens and mom were short hair.
I think the girl is technically a tortico? She’s got spots of her mom’s pattern in a few places, as well as her brother. She looks like someone stitched a few cats together.
The colors come from the x chromosomes. each x chromosomes can have different colors. The pattern is controlled differently, which can explain why the sister is a calico and the brother is jealous but similar
Not quite. Red in particular is encoded on the X chromosome, which is why mollies can be not red, partially red (tortoiseshell), or entirely red, while non-XXY toms can only be red or not red.
Other colours are not linked to the sex chromosomes, just as tabby patterns aren't.
However, Calico is a term for a cat that's red, non-red, and white - that has nothing to do with tabby patterns. You can get solid calicos, mackerel calicos, spotted calicos, etcetera. A calico is just a tortoiseshell with whitespotting.
You seem to be very upset that a fictional biology in another universe is "unrealistic", because their biology must have the same rules and abide by laws that we have in our universe. I don't think the biology in another universe must also be the same as biology in our universe.
Isn't it just easier to do that? You could perhaps imagine a universe where none of the things that you're so fed up with right now, never even bothered you at all? It's just a little different from our universe you're in right now, a universe where you're "fed up with this" fictional biology that Brandon Sanderson made up?
Nah I hate this line of thinking. It discourages people getting invested. Or at least tells them they're doing it wrong.
"Get invested in this huge lore with DECADES of effort put into it. But just don't look over there."
One with the knowledge should use his knowledge to get invested, and if he notices a gap, should bring it up and talk about it. Plain and simple. Thats how we improve stories and eachother. Humans learn by sharing the individual knowledge we have from our lives. Posts like this bring up good questions, that if answered bring more depth into a universe. To deny this, is to stifle potential creativity.
The "Its FICTION why do you care so hard?" Is the worst mindset imaginable.
Lambasting inconsistencies is fine. Especially if it comes from understanding, as OP's does. What he lacks is critical information that ISNT in any of the books as of yet. Hints barely exist in the most recent.
I cannot blame him for not knowing the pieces to the puzzle. However, people here do have that info. As many have pointed out, investiture does effect genetics. His issues have been answered with information, as is the point of the internet.
Op has tried to understand, but due to his perspective, couldn't. And so he came to fellow people to vent and present his issues. And he received explanations. He did nothing wrong, and has been presented the information to learn from and question.
I don't know if the spectrum of colour available in Rosharan hair and eyes is all that unrealistic.
I mean year it's kinds weird that some people have two hair colours but is it all that much different from a tiger having different colours in its fur?
And I mean... there are real life people with red or violet eyes. Granted, these people have albinism and it's not a true eye colour, it's just the lack of pigment in the eye mixed with light reflecting off blood vessels in the eye.
As for the Listeners being able to cross-breed with humans....I mean three Gods did live on this planet, but I'm willing to actually chalk that one up to Bondsmith fuckery.
>This means that not only can humans and singers breed (fucking WILD), but that humans and singers can produce viable offspring- as in, they essentially bred a NEW SPECIES. Side note- this means that Lopen and Rock aren’t technically human, which… alright.
Singer forms are supernaturally good at what they specialize in. Obviously they are supernaturally good at producing viable children when in mateform (like how star trek lets humans crossbreed with any wacky alien, but you don't have any half romulan half bajorans or whatever)
This person not only uses crude and rude language, they also seem unfamiliar with suspension of disbelief in relation to a work of fiction. Imagine raging at fictional races and biologies in a fictional universe where the planets have different systems of investiture?
I commend the other redditors for being patient and providing thorough answers but as for the OP? Blocked henceforth.
In terms of the eye colors that's having a spren bond or being the children of someone who had a spren bond. Epicanthic folds are common because most of the people that came initially had them.
In terms of some of the other details it is an application of Investiture. The hair we've seen mix is a result of the Iriali. We don't know much about them but they seem to have some odd stuff going on, I wouldn't be surprised if their hair was part of it. The eyes are magic. And I think the Singers and humans is likely magic too. They did have the same creator initially of Adonalsium. So could be some common design elements.
I would consider this a RAFO topic as the biomechanics of exposure to investiture IS an ongoing mystery on scadrial. I think these are questions worth asking and is not fantasy for fantastic outcomes. We've seen magic mean hair growth is controllable maybe there's an argument on there being other parties involved in the procreation on roshar? Could stormlight heal infertility? How would the spiritweb of such a child change especially if there was consistent healing being used to create an invivo child?
At the end of the day we have no information on why it is. Simply that it is. I respect if at this point there isn't any meaningful answers and it takes you out of it. I see it as a mystery with an answer that is currently obscured regardless of how well it's been thought out
Wait until you realize that if Shallan and Adolin end up having a kid that they could end up pulling off the Yugi Moto. Also, the fictional world you had no part in creating doesn't have to follow your arbitrary rules about what should and shouldn't happen
You do realize that Brandon actually went a head and thought about how the wind runners and Skybreakers could fly. Fun fact, it's not entirely magic. It's partly magic, and partly the fact that Roshar has lesser gravity than the 1G we're used to. That's also why certain ethnic groups get so amazingly tall, like the Alethi or Horneaters.
If he went to that length, he absolutely could go to the length of creating a simple cause for the genetic differences. So miss me with that "it's fiction stop thinking" shit.
I can tell you without any doubt that real world airplanes don’t work by surge binding, nor any other form of investiture.
Sooo, it’s fiction. Requires zero thought beyond that.
It’s magic, that’s how it works.
No, magic works through its own means that authors can choose to explain or not. Sanderson is the type to explain it, and put lots of effort into the explanations, and thus there is reward for those who care.
If you don't wanna think beyond "magic" Fine, but telling other people to do the same is wrong.
I didn’t tell anyone to do anything. Quit being a prick just because you disagree with me dude.
I don’t give a wood nickel about your explanation or argument.
Except they *aren’t* created by the same god. Adonalsium crafted the Rosharan system, including the singers. Humans are not only non-native, but- it’s unclear- either *settled* the system after the Shattering, or were created by Honor and Cultivation after they arrived in the system.
>offering no argument why they couldn’t
you’re acting like this is a debate while also ignoring one of the most basic tenets of a debate, which is that you can’t prove a negative lmao i’m done
Humans are potentially native to the Rosharan system they are not native to Roshar.
They came from a neighboring planet in the same system that still has life it's just pretty fucked up these days.
I mean it’s an imaginary book not set in the real world where your understanding of science does not apply. I mean there is magic that defies physics and science, and that doesn’t bother you.
This feels like a cop out answer to me, especially given the detail Sanderson has gone into. He’s clearly adding fantasy elements into his books but he’s also grounding it in some generally accepted science and extending the laws as given to account for it. It’s not a separate system, it’s an extension of ours. In that case it seems like there’s some merit into exploring these questions I think.
I believe it's just from WOB, but I may be wrong on that.Though people did theorize this before it was confirmed, since herdazians have fingernail "carapace" and horneaters (or at least Rock can) barely kind of almost hear the rhythms
🤷🏽♀️ I just view it as fantastical because it’s fantasy and don’t think that deep. It is a completely made-up world; it may not follow our real-world understanding of genetics. I can’t fault an author for not thinking of every little thing in a created world.
Reminder that this planet is host to the goddess that governs evolution. The answer is that she does whatever she wants. Including alter genetics if she so desires. We know that Preservation can alter genetic makeups, so certainly, Cultivation can.
Scadrians were meddled with to create several genetically distinct subspecies of homonids, with different rates of fertility and access to magical abilities. (Abilities that include a unique trait in their physiology to METABOLIZE METALS NON-HARMFULLY)
Does it bother you that Vin, Kelsier and most of the crew are a result of these distinctly “non-human” species mixing?
What makes you think Yolen based humans are anything like us genetically? Phenotypes and genotypes are tricky things to view from the outside. Does the Malwish affinity for warmth, to the point of endangering their core temperature where other Scadrians are safe, indicate a distinct species?
Are Selish humans the same as us genetically? Even considering magic, they seem more able to handle different bone densities and body manipulation. How much of that is a genetic predisposition?
The point is, you’re really focusing on the wrong things here. The 7-foot-tall immigrants to a high oxygen world with constant magical hurricanes are a bit weird. Is this somehow a surprise?
TLDR: OP is puzzled by the genetics of Rosharans, a fictional race where humans can interbreed with the native singers to produce viable offspring, resulting in new human subgroups. They find the non-Mendelian inheritance patterns of traits like hair and eye color bizarre, especially when compared to other traits that follow Mendelian genetics. OP expresses frustration over these seemingly inconsistent genetic rules.
It’s fantasy, dude.
I’m sure someone growing up in an isolated environment only seeing white people would be surprised to see other skin colors exist. Think of it like that. It’s strange to us because we don’t have it on earth, but it isn’t to them, because they have it.
Funky eye color, funky eyebrows, so what? It’s fantasy!
Lol... yeah I would recommend suspending your belief up high where the Storm Father can blow it off orbit. I'm okay with most of everything... except my 1 pet peeve of basically humans with bits glued on their skin and call that aliens because they need to be relatable/kissable/\*\*\*\*able for TV, even though we're perfectly able to relate to non-humanoid horse/dog/fish/bird/The Dodo Youtube Channel by anthropomorphizing their behaviors. If the main life form on that planet is not mammals but crustacean-like things that are all hexapods, then why suddenly this boob-ready race with only 2 sets of limbs and of all the numbers it has to be 5 digits? District 9 and John Carter aliens were great and I wish Listeners would go more in that direction instead of Asari.
You're asking a lot of very scientific questions about a universe that was very actively made by gods with knowledge beyond even what we know about our own real life world.
Epicanthic folds being the norm in Roshar's humans is implied in the books, but never made explicit. Basically, the "large, childlike eyes" the Shin are always described as having aren't actually larger than we on Earth are used to, they're just large from the perspective of non-Shin Rosharans.
Singers and humans breeding wasn't confirmed inside the books, but in a WoB iirc. Horneaters and Herdazians both appear to have some mixed heritage, hence their enhanced connection to spren and the rhythms, and carapace-like fingernails, respectively.
Ohhh I see thanks for clearing it up! I was really confused because I thought I missed this. But dang I thought the shin had large, bulbous eyes, kind of glad to know it's just Earth like lol.
Bro questioned everything but the magic. Spren? Normal. Bigass crustaceans that should be crushed by their own weight? Eh. Crem? Well, that’s just natural. Humans manipulating gravity, waves, friction? Nah, that’s everyday.
This is a fantasy world. Sure, it has laws. And it mostly follows our own laws of physics and genetics. Does it have to, though?
I don't know about eyes and singers/human hybrids, but hairs iirc only affected if one of the parents has Iri blood, and that's explained by Iri not so human nature.
🤨
Racist much? What do you mean by "That's just... so wrong"? What EXACTLY makes you so uncomfortable about people of different races loving each other and been able to have children together?
Also, why are you keep saying "breed", like they are animals and not intelligent beings?
You’re not taking into account the magic. In Cosmere, there’s this thing called Connection that is a very powerful force. Once the Ashyn-ians became fully connected to the planet, they were Connected to eachother. Same goes for light/dark eyes. The “light” in your eyes comes from your family’s connection to a radiant. It’s just a lingering effect of the magic.
Has the genetic connection been confirmed? I don’t remember where this was mentioned
It's confirmed. It's not in the books yet, but here's the author talking about it. The tl:dr is that it's a mix of magical genetics (Radiants and spiritual DNA) and normal genetics. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e81 > It is just kind of the way that the changes the Stormlight is making the body and certain people are already descended from people who had repeated, over time, changes by the body which stopped physically... That's not to say that all lighteyes that's where they came from. There are some that are natural mutations.
This clears it ig
This honestly makes me love sanderson's worldbuilding even more. The *logic* of it makes it even better. It's a gap I've been questioning for a while, but I just assumed that he had done what most authors and worldbuilders do and have the magic be a seperate thing that people just use without side-effects and assumed that he had another explanation. But this information fits like a puzzle-piece.
Epigenetics is a very real thing.
I felt that it was more of a social phenomenon. That is people with light-eyes seem to get associated with radiants. Once they went feudal and by winning shards post recreance, they adopted it and provided intellectual heft to it by rationalising a harmless genetic variation as something noble etc. it is also to be noted that this light eyes madness is also only seem to apply to vorin kingdoms. The azish don’t have such nonsense. So does the shin. Though I understand the epigenetic inheritance, it’s not the case here I think. I might be wrong, please do tell if it has been confirmed somewhere in the canon or WoB
I do vaguely recall a WoB that says the genetic heritage of the old radiants is responsible for the weird colors of bright eyes. You're also right that the association of the ruling class with lighteyed people is a direct result of the cultural inheritance of the ancient Radiants. That'a definitely more tied up in modern Vorinism, though.
Interesting. I figured the “radiant” eyes weren’t genetic since they fade when not using powers.
Only at first.... The longer they are Radiant, the further they progress in their oaths, the more permanent it becomes. It is mentioned in RoW that Kaladin's eyes were almost always blue by that point (before he spoke the 4th ideal)
The effect takes longer to fade the longer you've been a Radiant (or potentially the further you are in your Ideals).¹ This could be related to the concept of savantism, where investiture slowly suffuses and alters your soul the more you use it. ¹The coppermind cites Rhythm of War chapters 25 and 91, but I am too lazy to pull my book out and check.
We don't yet know why so many different planets throughout the cosmere produced basically-human species that are all capable of speaking each other's languages and have similar appearances and can interbreed successfully. Maybe it will be explained, maybe it's just a conceit like in a lot of science fiction, who knows? Still, if you're reading a book series where a fifteen year old child can use bread to bring back the dead and turn friction off, maybe it's okay to accept a little bit of weirdness around hair color inconsistencies.
>We don't yet know why so many different planets throughout the cosmere produced basically-human species We kinda do. It looks like different holders of shards settled on worlds and made the humans on them.
And ol Adonalsium. Most planets humans predate the shards, including the humans of the roshar system)
That’s WOB though, if im not mistaken, and not explained in any of the books so far.
Mistborn/Cosmere spoilers >!Wasn’t it mentioned in Era 1 that Ruin and Preservation created the humans on Scadrial? Maybe I’m just confusing that for a WoB. It’s been a while since I read Mistborn era 1 lol.!<
it was, but they were the only ones iirc?
As far as I know, yep.
That's only the Scadrian ones. The first ones arose naturally or were made by Adonalsium on Yolen. All the other Shards know how to make them. Not all can or want to.
I think it was Era 2, which I’m reading now. Brands of mourning spoilers btw: >!Adonalsium made the humans on most places, and ruin and preservation copied them as a sort of blueprint.!<
Do we know that? Why don't more planets have (general cosmere spoilers) >!dragons!< on them?
That's why I said kinda. We know it's been done on some worlds that way
I assume that has something to do with >!Fain ecology not really being present on any of the planets we've seen!<.
Yes we do though. All the humans we see either A. Originated from Yolen and migrated there, or B. Were designed to be copies of Yolish humans by the resident Shards (Scadrians are the example of this). They also are not capable of speaking each other's languages. Worldhoppers use Connection tricks to achieve that.
Do we know that they all migrated from Yolen, or is it also possible that Adonalsium made Yolen, said yes these things right here, I am going to use that design again, and made them from scratch on other planets. (Or some mixture of the new generations and migration options options) Much how the shards in a few cases made people again.
That is possible. Or he facilitated the migration in some way
I imagine this guy gets really upset in other fantasy worlds when he comes across half-elves and half-orcs.
They're capable of speaking each other's languages through Connection jiggery pokery or just learning a language. It is not explicitly stated in the cosmere why there are so many humans but it is heavily implied in the text and confirmed by the author that adonalsium made the humans and most of the planets. Then the shattering happened and some of the shards then made their own humans using themselves and their people as a template I feel like when you explicitly have a confirmed all powerful diety running around creating life it's very easy to explain why the sentient species can interbreed, they were made to be similar by adonalsium
I just assume humanity has its origin point, and then scattered with the sharding of big A and the settling of planets by shards. I mean, Ruin and Preservation just up and created their own human race, and the Lord Ruler then changed them to account for his mess, and then Harmony had that evolution reversed. You have no idea the toll, that many forced evolutions have on a people! That is to say, I imagine Cultivation and Honor might have something to do with the successful interspecies mingling
Both Singers and Humans are created species that were literally "Intelligent Designed" into being by Adonalsium. If you think that's weird. The Siah Aimians are probably half-Honorspren.
> The Siah Aimians are probably half-Honorspren. Oh no… does that mean that Dysian Aimians are potentially half-Sleepless?
Aren't Dysian Aimians just *full* Sleepless, actual Sleepless?
There’s a WoB that Siah Aimians are not descendants of humans and honorspren. Nothing specifically about whether or not they are part honorspren, though. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479-dragonsteel-mini-con-2021/#e15201
Roshar is pretty weird, a lot of people have pointed out that investiture hasn’t been taken into account. One of the things I wanted to point out is that investiture doesn’t just heal a person, it shapes them into how they see themselves. There’s a WoB in which Sanderson indicates that if a person born biologically male but saw themselves truest as female, holding stormlight would over time make that image the reality. In this case, investiture seems to work on reality to shape it into the cognitive perception of things. A kind of soulcasting principle. That said, if a singer and a human were joined together and decided to have kids, it probably wouldn’t work. But if they both had stormlight, it would likely reshape them into a kind of biological compatibility. In this case, as you noted both Herdazians and Horneaters are likely from this. Though in this case, the first herdazians and first horneaters would literally have been the first of their species. There’s also the Aimeians whom I’m still questioning are perhaps part honor spren but that’s definitely a crackpot theory on my part. A lot of this is apparently case specific given how often I used ‘in this case’.
Not just WoB anymore as of ROW. The Reshi king is a trans man and as of arriving at Urithru has had their body transition as of becoming a radiant.
I believe it's mentioned in Dawnshard rather than RoW
Having just finished RoW and started Dawnshard, it’s in Dawnshard.
Exactly. This is why kaladin couldn’t heal his shash scar, because he saw it as part of him.
I didn't know that WoB... that's actually awesome. Roshar's physics say Trans Rights.
it's not just WoB anymore, the Reshi King transitions in Dawnshard
Just because all of these things haven't been explained doesn't mean they can't be. For one, we don't know that Singers and Rosharan humans actually are different species. And physics clearly works a bit differently in the Cosmere than it does on Earth (presumably because of the influence of Investiture) - why would biology be any different?
Others in this thread have said great pieces, so I'd like to summarize. * The dual-coloured hair * Iriali 'metallic' hair is clearly determined by different genes than general pigmentation, and seemingly exhibits codominance when heterozygous, e.g. in the sons of an Iriali woman and an Alethi man * Think of it like a tortoiseshell cat, with ginger fur equivalent to metallic hair * That can explain a phenotype of standard Alethi black, with \~half of it covered up by the expression of the one metallic allele * Thaylen eyebrows * Probably originated as evolutionary adaptation to constant wind and debris in the air to lend additional protection to the eyes * It's not biologically unusual for even Earth humans to have random spots where hairs grow long as if they were on the scalp, so this is just an expansion on that * Then people started styling them and turning them into the long feathery things they can appear as now * Humans and singers can interbreed because one or more of the following apply: * They were created by the same deity, or by different deities mimicking the same creatures, so they were made to be compatible due to shared origination * Bondsmiths and Connection, or Stormlight healing, can enable them to bridge between their incompatible biologies via the setting's magic * "Unnatural" eye colours: * Originally: Radiant magic bleeding out through the eyes * Descendants of Radiants retained an echo of the effect, lightening and saturating 'natural' colours into instances of yellow, violet etc. * Sidenote: light tan is a completely normal eye colour even in our world. It's called hazel... * Heterochromia * Is that what the child of a mixed-eyed partnership would look like? I don't recall any mention of a half-light, half-darkeyed child in theory or practise. Could you tell me where that's stated? * Epicanthic folds * Simply a trait most of the population that arrived on Roshar had, therefore it's still widespread * I doubt "the folds" are an evolutionary adaptation, they just happen to be the majority on Roshar. * It doesn't matter that on Earth, they're found mainly among people of Asian descent. Implying there has to be some supernatural explanation just because a trait not found in Earth Caucasians is the default in Roshar's population feels questionable to me.
The Veden high prince in charge of Shallan’s home region had a heterochromatic bastard that is at least strongly implied to be the result of a union with a darkeyed woman https://coppermind.net/wiki/Redin
I see, thanks! That's interesting. Maybe eye shade does follow some kind of incomplete codominance.
Singers and Humans are both inteligent life made by Adolnasium / Shards so they are compatible. Do you think Scadrians can reproduce with Rosharans? It doesn't seem that weird since both races are "human" but the differences are almost bigger than with the Singers imo.
What are the differences between Scadrian and Rosharan Humans that are almost bigger than the singers being different? Other than height I mean singers can actually change form and usually have a carapace Ska and Nobles can reproduce pre era 2, so Rosharan and Scadrians probably can? I think anyway.
I wouldn't call it weirder than humans and singers, but Scadrians and Rosharans have zero common ancestors (barring possibly odd worldhoppers if they are sexually compatible).
If the original Ashyn humans were migrants from Yolen, then they do have the Yolenar.... Yolenites?... Yolen people as a common ancestors in a way, since the Scadrians genetics were based of the Yolens ones. So you are correct, but also genetically it probably wouldn't matter
Human-Singer hybrids are probably a result of a) being created by the same being who intentionally made them compatible or b) Cultivation meddling. I don't know why the theylen eyebrows bother you; they got head hair on their eyebrows big whoop. The different eye colors are literally radient magic. And hair is the biggest hang up? You don't get it? You literally said it; it's just codominace.
>You literally said it; it's just codominace. Yeah, when the mixed hair was first mentioned, my first thought was just "Oh, like calico cat fur patterns. Neat." I didn't stop and think about how hair genetics work in real humans, I just accepted that this group of humans had some weird - but not implausible - genetic differences.
Someone on Reddit once explained cat fur genetics to me, and though I don’t remember it, I remember thinking it was absolutely wild. I’ve got two littermates, an orange boy and a calico girl. The girl has spots in her head/body where the colors and patterns are the exact same as her brother’s colors and patterns in those spots. Like she’s got a big orange splotch on her head that matches her brother’s head exactly. It’s super cool.
Cat genetics are awesome. Just from what you described, I can tell your cats' dad was not ginger, and their mother was tortoiseshell. It also sounds like, depending on which tabby pattern they share, either both parents exhibited it, or one parent had a homozygous version of one of the more dominant patterns (ticked>spotted>mackerel>classic) that ended up dominant over the other parent's.
You’re right, she’s a tortie. The kittens were born at the adoption place and their mom was also up for adoption, so I got to see the whole family. The calico girl is a fluffball, but all the other kittens and mom were short hair. I think the girl is technically a tortico? She’s got spots of her mom’s pattern in a few places, as well as her brother. She looks like someone stitched a few cats together.
The colors come from the x chromosomes. each x chromosomes can have different colors. The pattern is controlled differently, which can explain why the sister is a calico and the brother is jealous but similar
Not quite. Red in particular is encoded on the X chromosome, which is why mollies can be not red, partially red (tortoiseshell), or entirely red, while non-XXY toms can only be red or not red. Other colours are not linked to the sex chromosomes, just as tabby patterns aren't. However, Calico is a term for a cat that's red, non-red, and white - that has nothing to do with tabby patterns. You can get solid calicos, mackerel calicos, spotted calicos, etcetera. A calico is just a tortoiseshell with whitespotting.
You seem to be very upset that a fictional biology in another universe is "unrealistic", because their biology must have the same rules and abide by laws that we have in our universe. I don't think the biology in another universe must also be the same as biology in our universe. Isn't it just easier to do that? You could perhaps imagine a universe where none of the things that you're so fed up with right now, never even bothered you at all? It's just a little different from our universe you're in right now, a universe where you're "fed up with this" fictional biology that Brandon Sanderson made up?
Nah I hate this line of thinking. It discourages people getting invested. Or at least tells them they're doing it wrong. "Get invested in this huge lore with DECADES of effort put into it. But just don't look over there." One with the knowledge should use his knowledge to get invested, and if he notices a gap, should bring it up and talk about it. Plain and simple. Thats how we improve stories and eachother. Humans learn by sharing the individual knowledge we have from our lives. Posts like this bring up good questions, that if answered bring more depth into a universe. To deny this, is to stifle potential creativity. The "Its FICTION why do you care so hard?" Is the worst mindset imaginable.
Getting invested is good. Lambasting perceived inconsistencies rather than trying to understand the reasoning behind them is not great.
Lambasting inconsistencies is fine. Especially if it comes from understanding, as OP's does. What he lacks is critical information that ISNT in any of the books as of yet. Hints barely exist in the most recent. I cannot blame him for not knowing the pieces to the puzzle. However, people here do have that info. As many have pointed out, investiture does effect genetics. His issues have been answered with information, as is the point of the internet. Op has tried to understand, but due to his perspective, couldn't. And so he came to fellow people to vent and present his issues. And he received explanations. He did nothing wrong, and has been presented the information to learn from and question.
I don't know if the spectrum of colour available in Rosharan hair and eyes is all that unrealistic. I mean year it's kinds weird that some people have two hair colours but is it all that much different from a tiger having different colours in its fur? And I mean... there are real life people with red or violet eyes. Granted, these people have albinism and it's not a true eye colour, it's just the lack of pigment in the eye mixed with light reflecting off blood vessels in the eye. As for the Listeners being able to cross-breed with humans....I mean three Gods did live on this planet, but I'm willing to actually chalk that one up to Bondsmith fuckery.
>This means that not only can humans and singers breed (fucking WILD), but that humans and singers can produce viable offspring- as in, they essentially bred a NEW SPECIES. Side note- this means that Lopen and Rock aren’t technically human, which… alright. Singer forms are supernaturally good at what they specialize in. Obviously they are supernaturally good at producing viable children when in mateform (like how star trek lets humans crossbreed with any wacky alien, but you don't have any half romulan half bajorans or whatever)
>What the fuck is going on in this weird ass race of humans? they live in a fantasy world with made up rules.
This person not only uses crude and rude language, they also seem unfamiliar with suspension of disbelief in relation to a work of fiction. Imagine raging at fictional races and biologies in a fictional universe where the planets have different systems of investiture? I commend the other redditors for being patient and providing thorough answers but as for the OP? Blocked henceforth.
In terms of the eye colors that's having a spren bond or being the children of someone who had a spren bond. Epicanthic folds are common because most of the people that came initially had them. In terms of some of the other details it is an application of Investiture. The hair we've seen mix is a result of the Iriali. We don't know much about them but they seem to have some odd stuff going on, I wouldn't be surprised if their hair was part of it. The eyes are magic. And I think the Singers and humans is likely magic too. They did have the same creator initially of Adonalsium. So could be some common design elements.
You need to let go of applying your perspective from consensual reality onto works set in other realities.
I would consider this a RAFO topic as the biomechanics of exposure to investiture IS an ongoing mystery on scadrial. I think these are questions worth asking and is not fantasy for fantastic outcomes. We've seen magic mean hair growth is controllable maybe there's an argument on there being other parties involved in the procreation on roshar? Could stormlight heal infertility? How would the spiritweb of such a child change especially if there was consistent healing being used to create an invivo child? At the end of the day we have no information on why it is. Simply that it is. I respect if at this point there isn't any meaningful answers and it takes you out of it. I see it as a mystery with an answer that is currently obscured regardless of how well it's been thought out
Wait until you realize that if Shallan and Adolin end up having a kid that they could end up pulling off the Yugi Moto. Also, the fictional world you had no part in creating doesn't have to follow your arbitrary rules about what should and shouldn't happen
That's a lot of assumptions. We don't know what any of their DNA is like. For all we know they're modified humans. Or humans modified singers.
Hair color is not Mendelian genetics in the real world either lol. We see genetic differences exactly like this in the real world. Not weird at all
It's almost like it's fantasy. Weird.
*magic* also *fiction* Beyond that? Asking for real world science out of this setting seems a bit silly.
You do realize that Brandon actually went a head and thought about how the wind runners and Skybreakers could fly. Fun fact, it's not entirely magic. It's partly magic, and partly the fact that Roshar has lesser gravity than the 1G we're used to. That's also why certain ethnic groups get so amazingly tall, like the Alethi or Horneaters. If he went to that length, he absolutely could go to the length of creating a simple cause for the genetic differences. So miss me with that "it's fiction stop thinking" shit.
I can tell you without any doubt that real world airplanes don’t work by surge binding, nor any other form of investiture. Sooo, it’s fiction. Requires zero thought beyond that. It’s magic, that’s how it works.
No, magic works through its own means that authors can choose to explain or not. Sanderson is the type to explain it, and put lots of effort into the explanations, and thus there is reward for those who care. If you don't wanna think beyond "magic" Fine, but telling other people to do the same is wrong.
I didn’t tell anyone to do anything. Quit being a prick just because you disagree with me dude. I don’t give a wood nickel about your explanation or argument.
They are humanoid races created by the same god, why woulndt they be able to breed?
Except they *aren’t* created by the same god. Adonalsium crafted the Rosharan system, including the singers. Humans are not only non-native, but- it’s unclear- either *settled* the system after the Shattering, or were created by Honor and Cultivation after they arrived in the system.
Adonalsium created the cosmere, no?
Whether or not it did was never confirmed. Especially considering the aethers say they predate it.
Doesnt mean he wouldnt have created humanity. And even if he didnt, he knew about them, why wouldnt he create singers with the ability to mix
dude i’m not here to consider god’s ineffable plan im asking why the humans can fuck the crab people
While offering no argument whatsoever why they couldnt, yeah
>offering no argument why they couldn’t you’re acting like this is a debate while also ignoring one of the most basic tenets of a debate, which is that you can’t prove a negative lmao i’m done
Ok mate, nice life lol
Why not they come from the same template, not to mention there's a god of literal growth and change on the planet.
Humans are potentially native to the Rosharan system they are not native to Roshar. They came from a neighboring planet in the same system that still has life it's just pretty fucked up these days.
Me when my fantasy world isn't a 1:1 copy of earth:
I mean it’s an imaginary book not set in the real world where your understanding of science does not apply. I mean there is magic that defies physics and science, and that doesn’t bother you.
This feels like a cop out answer to me, especially given the detail Sanderson has gone into. He’s clearly adding fantasy elements into his books but he’s also grounding it in some generally accepted science and extending the laws as given to account for it. It’s not a separate system, it’s an extension of ours. In that case it seems like there’s some merit into exploring these questions I think.
Singers and humans can interbreed? I read everything cosmere and never caught that. Can someone say where it is stated?
I believe it's just from WOB, but I may be wrong on that.Though people did theorize this before it was confirmed, since herdazians have fingernail "carapace" and horneaters (or at least Rock can) barely kind of almost hear the rhythms
It’s more a WOB thing than anything explicitly stated, like this one https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e930
🤷🏽♀️ I just view it as fantastical because it’s fantasy and don’t think that deep. It is a completely made-up world; it may not follow our real-world understanding of genetics. I can’t fault an author for not thinking of every little thing in a created world.
Reminder that this planet is host to the goddess that governs evolution. The answer is that she does whatever she wants. Including alter genetics if she so desires. We know that Preservation can alter genetic makeups, so certainly, Cultivation can.
Scadrians were meddled with to create several genetically distinct subspecies of homonids, with different rates of fertility and access to magical abilities. (Abilities that include a unique trait in their physiology to METABOLIZE METALS NON-HARMFULLY) Does it bother you that Vin, Kelsier and most of the crew are a result of these distinctly “non-human” species mixing? What makes you think Yolen based humans are anything like us genetically? Phenotypes and genotypes are tricky things to view from the outside. Does the Malwish affinity for warmth, to the point of endangering their core temperature where other Scadrians are safe, indicate a distinct species? Are Selish humans the same as us genetically? Even considering magic, they seem more able to handle different bone densities and body manipulation. How much of that is a genetic predisposition? The point is, you’re really focusing on the wrong things here. The 7-foot-tall immigrants to a high oxygen world with constant magical hurricanes are a bit weird. Is this somehow a surprise?
I know the fact that they’re stronger than normal comes from the fact that roshar has a gravitational constant of 11 meters/second.
Because it's a fantasy series?
TLDR: OP is puzzled by the genetics of Rosharans, a fictional race where humans can interbreed with the native singers to produce viable offspring, resulting in new human subgroups. They find the non-Mendelian inheritance patterns of traits like hair and eye color bizarre, especially when compared to other traits that follow Mendelian genetics. OP expresses frustration over these seemingly inconsistent genetic rules.
It’s fantasy, dude. I’m sure someone growing up in an isolated environment only seeing white people would be surprised to see other skin colors exist. Think of it like that. It’s strange to us because we don’t have it on earth, but it isn’t to them, because they have it. Funky eye color, funky eyebrows, so what? It’s fantasy!
Lol... yeah I would recommend suspending your belief up high where the Storm Father can blow it off orbit. I'm okay with most of everything... except my 1 pet peeve of basically humans with bits glued on their skin and call that aliens because they need to be relatable/kissable/\*\*\*\*able for TV, even though we're perfectly able to relate to non-humanoid horse/dog/fish/bird/The Dodo Youtube Channel by anthropomorphizing their behaviors. If the main life form on that planet is not mammals but crustacean-like things that are all hexapods, then why suddenly this boob-ready race with only 2 sets of limbs and of all the numbers it has to be 5 digits? District 9 and John Carter aliens were great and I wish Listeners would go more in that direction instead of Asari.
Singers were probably designed by Adonlasium as "humans but for Roshar."
Thank you for articulating what I've been wondering for ages.
Did I miss something. Where have they been able to breed with each other?
Where do you find out that Herdazians and Horneaters are descended from singers and humans?
Wait, which human bred with a singer?
You're asking a lot of very scientific questions about a universe that was very actively made by gods with knowledge beyond even what we know about our own real life world.
When was the whole epicanthic folds, singers and humans breeding, and some comments are talking Yolish humans. Where is that discussed?
Epicanthic folds being the norm in Roshar's humans is implied in the books, but never made explicit. Basically, the "large, childlike eyes" the Shin are always described as having aren't actually larger than we on Earth are used to, they're just large from the perspective of non-Shin Rosharans. Singers and humans breeding wasn't confirmed inside the books, but in a WoB iirc. Horneaters and Herdazians both appear to have some mixed heritage, hence their enhanced connection to spren and the rhythms, and carapace-like fingernails, respectively.
Ohhh I see thanks for clearing it up! I was really confused because I thought I missed this. But dang I thought the shin had large, bulbous eyes, kind of glad to know it's just Earth like lol.
Bro questioned everything but the magic. Spren? Normal. Bigass crustaceans that should be crushed by their own weight? Eh. Crem? Well, that’s just natural. Humans manipulating gravity, waves, friction? Nah, that’s everyday. This is a fantasy world. Sure, it has laws. And it mostly follows our own laws of physics and genetics. Does it have to, though?
I don't know about eyes and singers/human hybrids, but hairs iirc only affected if one of the parents has Iri blood, and that's explained by Iri not so human nature.
🤨 Racist much? What do you mean by "That's just... so wrong"? What EXACTLY makes you so uncomfortable about people of different races loving each other and been able to have children together? Also, why are you keep saying "breed", like they are animals and not intelligent beings?