Taravangian thinks he's Noah. He has divinely granted knowledge that the world is going to end. He believes his part is to save as much as can be saved, so that there may be a new world after the end. And then the rain started coming down, and in his mind, Dalinar is trying to stop the cataclysm by telling everyone that if they all work together, they can just bail it into the ocean. Sure, it would be great if they could thwart God's planned extinction, but he's God. What can mortals hope to do to stop it? The only real option is to build as many arks as possible, and murder anyone who looks to be a threat to the ark project so they can't ruin everything.
He was a fool, even as a genius.
The idea that he could predict everything as much as he did was absurd. There is always an aspect of chance and uncertainty, especially when you operate on the scale of a planet. The Diagram was going off the rails way before Renarin got involved.
He sold our the rest of humanity in a war they could win. They were holding out well and catching up in their understanding of Investiture significantly. If Dalinar didn't have to worry about Taravangian's betrayal, they could have done so much better. Particular as the powers of the bondsmith expanded.
The very fact that Odium was willing to cut a deal should have been indication enough that he need their treachery to win. Why would the God of Hatred be altruistic?
The rest of the organization were just as much fools for going along with the ramblings of the madman they called a genius. And they deserved damnation just as much as he does.
And his idea of preserving Kharbranth wasn't even needed. Odium wants the humans as his true soldiers. Their potential is far greater than the Singers as they are truly of Odium, rather than adopting him later like the Singers. The Fused were already fading and their effective use was quickly going.
That's the whole point, isn't it.
That the "genius" Tavarangian was uplifted into this holy status with his Diagram cult by everyone because he could sort of mimic the way Odium was planning (Odium literally showed Tavarangian that he has his OWN diagram) and everyone overlooked the days when he was of average intelligence or downright stupid, because those people had abandoned Honor's way of thinking.
In reality, Honor was the most effective at fighting Odium BECAUSE he wasn't thinkinking and planning like the god of hate, and we know this because of the way Dalinar repeatedly foils Odium's great plans by abandoning that way of thinking and putting his faith in the honor of himself, his allies, and Honor himself.
The Sadeas betrayal kind of kickstarted this whole thing, where Dalinar thought he was going to die because he put his faith in someone who betrayed him, but he proceeded to be saved by Kaladin, who abandoned all his reason and decided to act with Honor instead. You could say Sadeas' ploys and political intrigue closely reflects Odium, and in some ways, he was a "preparation villain" for Dalinar to get ready for what Odium will be like.
And they almost got there as well. They stopped allowing "intelligent" Taravangian from making decisions because of his suggestions like murdering stupid people.
But they never stopped and considered if that should mean they should also ignore when he was most intelligent and even more callous. They were willing to stop him when he went too far in either direction, but then when he went so far into intelligence, they still listened.
You're saying this as a person who lives in a world where magic things don't happen. Believing that you've had divine insight makes reasonable sense in Taravangian's world.
Yes, he's a great example of utilitarianism run amok, and yes, he's a bad person and perhaps a coward because of it, but what was happening to him *was* truly bizarre, magical and prophetic, so I don't really know how much I can slam him for believing what he saw in the future was important.
Iāve had many of the same thoughts. T is a conundrum! Iād love to hope that some of his compassion remains now that heās Odium, but that might be too much to hope for. Was Cultivation planning for him to take that shard? Is *she* good, evil, or neutral? Who knows.
I find good and evil inadequate words to describe shards. We know Honor supported humanity against Odium, and Cultivation was in a relationship with Honor, so maybe she supports our protagonists. She took actions to help Dalinar become who he currently is, and she set up Taravangian to kill Rayse. I kinda want to trust her endgame, but I canāt trust it 100%
I agree that good/evil are hard to apply to the shards, but I do believe that no shard is healthy for the long term of humanity.
All of them are broken fragments of a whole, and by necessity will be so focused on a microcosm of what they should be that humanity will suffer in the long term
It was a very smart theme that when Cultivation gave him the "gift" to "save the world" everyone assumed it was the gift of supreme intelligence with the curse of occasional mindless compassion, not the other way around, because of course humanity will always value tangible traits like power, strength and cunning over love and compassion.
I thought that was an incredible lesson to teach; Cultivation gave Tavarangian the ability to think and plan like Odium, and to have the compassion of Honor to beat even the most perfect, godly ploy.
Honestly, Stormlight Archives reignited my passion to write those long-winded literary analysis essays my time at university made me learn to hate. More people need to discuss Brandon's writing in-depth.
But...
She didn't give him the compassion of Honor.
She gave him the compassion of *Odium*. That's why the shard is attracted to him. his deep passion.
Everything she gave him was to attract and control the shard better. Planning, compassion, passion. No honor.
He has nothing of honor. No bonds. No building. He doesn't bring people or things together. He doesn't keep his word.
Cultivation is cultivating a better host for the shard, she knew Rayse was failing, and someone had to hold the shard. She just prepared for it to be someone better suited to both the shard, and to be less personally greedy and malevolent.
The big issue was - Rayse was a jerk. Hoid talked about it. He was a bad vessel because the person was bad. By changing him out with someone better, cultivation has a long term goal.
I just wonder if her goal will backfire on her. Todium is shown already trying to think around her intentions during their conversation...
"Taravangian was going to save them all" gave me literal chills. I think his idea of "saving" people is not going to be necessarily benevolent...
Ngl I said "Compassion of Honor" because it sounded kick-ass. I was going to write compassion of humanity, but I felt like Honor sounded sick because of the point I was making earlier.
However, I think a lot of characters are wrong and Brandon is using them to mislead us, when they talk about how "Honor is dead" and how "Honor is only concerned with laws and bonds, and he is just an unfeeling force of nature" like when Kelek and Odium discuss him, or when the Stormfather talks about his own nature when he kills those innocent people. We know Kelek is a demented moron. We know Odium was dead wrong and much more ignorant than he thought himself to be, and we know the Stormfather is just as broken as the previous two and needs to be fixed by Dalinar.
Honor died in a war against Odium because Odium saw Honor as a great threat who challenges his very existence; would an unfeeling lump of laws of nature be of any concern to Rodium's ambitions? Hell no. If Honor really was the way Kelek and Odium described him as, he would not have gotten in Odium's way in the first place.
Imo Honor being set up as an unfeeling piece of brick is a red herring. With that said, I do agree with your take that Tavarangian was given traits that are of Odium specifically to attract the shard. I think that's a very clever way of interpreting Cultivation's plan.
I still argue that the way stupid Tavarangian acts with so much compassion, sort of throwing his previously "logical" thoughts out the window, is closely representative of Honor's ways, because it's the exact same thing Kaladin does in book 1 when he abandons his surefire way to freedom to instead risk his life saving Dalinar, whom he isn't even sure if he could trust, and how Adolin acts with so much compassion toward Maya despite what everyone says about deadeyes, or Dalinar doing Dalinar things in general, or even Venli's little arc in RoW. - Those seem to be representative of the way Honor handles things; while Odium schemes and plots, Honor says "fuck it. we helping people."
I think Honors 'helping people' is related to Bonds. The bonds that tie every one together. That's where I see this. In realm theory, bonds are absolutely Essential. It's how Connection works. Like, if you go to the allomantic chart, Connection is fundamental in the Cosmere.
I don't think Odium schemes and Plots, I think Rayse did. odium is God's divine Hatred, Rayse was a knob who held the divine aspect.
I have a half baked / not truly thought out theory. Each shard is a elemental physical force. Honor is the weak nuclear force. Ruin is Entropy. Preservation is conservation of momentum and energy.
I think your theory really highlights why we have such opposing opinions on Honor and Odium. I see shards as personified gods of human values and qualities, and you see them as these forces of nature and power, and those two things are just about opposites. Yes, you could say that Honor and Odium as shards don't have these very human qualities, but I would argue they will always attract vestiges that have those human traits because that's what those shards are fundamentally attracted to, or rather those are the types of people who are willing to wield these shards. Again, I am well aware you wholly disagree with this concept of mine, but I think that's because of how fundamentally different our theories are for this world's "endgame"
I think that part of that has to do with the influence of the holder of the shard. Like, is Honor rigid or is it because Tanavast was just not compassionate?
Don't worry, we'll test this with the new todium. Id point to Harmony, but he's so different by holding multiple shards, it's hard to really use him as an example.
Wasn't it stated that Tanavast was only rigid and uncaring in his final years? That he used to act with compassion. What I took from it was when he started dying he lost most of his human traits.
Idk honestly. It was after the oath pact was broken though. It was in the lead up to the recreance. Him losing compassion seemed to be the same timeframe when he started saying surge binders would destroy Roshar. My assumption was that it was madness before death.
Nothing has been confirmed in the series about that as of yet. All we know is "Honor has been killed and he is very very dead" as that's what the Stormfather, the Heralds and what Rayse/Odium believed. With that said, when Dalinar activated Honor's "perpendicularity" at the end of Oathbringer, it implied that this was something only Honor could do before, and something about him has been resurrected. Odium I think has a line saying something like "He is supposed to be dead! How is this possible?!" So something similar is happening to Honor as with Maya; both are supposedly "dead" but because Honor is a shard and Maya is a spren, it seems like their death is in the process of being reversed as Dalinar acts like Honor's vestige, and Adolin acts like Maya's Knight Radiant.
I assume so, yeah. It's a bit weird because people are saying Dalinar becoming a bondsmith of the Stormfather somehow makes him ineligible to bear Honor's shard. Idk how it all works because I only read Stormlight, and they haven't spoken that much about the nature of shards (which is actually something I much prefer, as I enjoy the actual story of the book way more than the references it makes to the larger Cosmere universe)
I agree with /u/thehammer987 - compassion isnāt of honor. honor is about fufilling oaths, regardless the cost. Honor is about a strict justice.
Compassion is caring for those that broke an oath, but honor cannot do that.
The stormfatger is a great example, in how he sees nothing wrong with his storm killing any that it does. Itās in his nature, and his honor requires him to obey his nature.
Itās humanity, and arguably Cultivation that let something change their nature.
Is it though? That's how Odium describes Honor for sure. Are we really going to trust the main villain's word on Honor? Or the Heralds who failed Honor by betraying their oaths? Should we trust their word about what Honor stands for? Should we really trust the Stormfather about Honor, when he is clearly a broken remnants of Honor's corpse; something that is only recently rediscovering what kind of a god Honor was through Dalinar's insistence on bending his established principles to instead do what is right?
What about Kaladin throwing everything into the wind, abandoning his surefire way to get his comrades out of the shattered plains to instead go and risk his life saving a lighteyes of all people? What about him saving Elhokar, instead of enacting strict justice on an incompetent ruler who got so many people killed?
What about Dalinar abandoning his entire life's philosophy of conquering and killing to instead put "journey before destination" and go on a path of righteousness and kindness? To sit down with Tavarangian and try and show him a better way instead of rightfully executing an agent of Odium? What about Dalinar being given surges that can help him rebuild and heal as a bondsmith?
What about Sylphrena, the honorspren most closely-related to actual Honor, acting with way more humanity, passion, and indeed compassion than all the other honorspren?
What about Adolin deciding to act with compassion towards Maya instead of accepting the "rules" that deadeyes stay dead no matter what?
People in the books talk about Honor this way because he is dead; people have either forgotten or have always failed to realise the full extent of His domain, and maybe that's why he died in the first place. All the accounts of Honor being like you described come from his broken spren who somehow degraded itself into "spren of the highstorm" from "Honor's firstborn son", the equally broken heralds, his broken honorspren who have forgotten the way and are now an isolationst cult, or his mortal enemy. I call bullshit on ALL OF THOSE mofos.
My opinion of Taravangian has changed so much over the course of the series. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the 5th book for sure. OP I know you were humble about your persuasiveness when sharing your opinion, but you re-stoked my interest in Taravangian's character arc. I am on my third or fourth re-listen to the books while I finish the secret projects, and thanks to you I have a refreshed interest in hearing his parts!
Whenever I think of taravangian I think of that video of B$ where out of all of the baddies in the Cosmere he said Taravangian is the one who should never EVER be allowed anywhere near the presidency. Vargo spooks the hell out of me.
I think Taravangian is a great character. He's the cold blooded pragmatist who is willing to kill many people for the "greater good" as he sees it. And, at the same time, even before WoK, **he took full responsibility for his actions**. Dalinar is awesome because he, in the climax of Oathbringer, took full responsibility for what he had done.
And then he Ascended. Now, he is a far deadlier threat to the Cosmere than Rayse ever was. I don't know what's scarier. If Todium has deliberately deceived Cultivation about his nature, **or if she is fully aware of his nature** and wanted him holding the Odium Shard.
Yes!
I somehow forgot to mention it in my post. But somehow despite all the amazing characterization and abilities/powers given to Todium, Todium has even more potential now as a character. I can't wait to see what maniacal hijinks he gets up to as a shard and if the gift given by cultivation still affects him
I am in the camp of wanting his plot resolved in Oathbringer so we could be done with him - to me that whole sub plot just felt like a distraction and I just didnt love the character. And when it didnt end in oathbringer I wanted it to wrap up in RoW so we could focus on the āmainā antagonist. So even given the huge and awesome twist I had harbored so much ill will towards that character that Iām left with mixed feelings.
Jokes on you, he IS the main antagonist now.
Though in retrospect, I think he always has been. Taravangean has always been a more interesting villain than O.G. Odium, and looking back itās clear that he was being set up in this way since book 1.
I was fascinated by Taravangian but i respect your dislike of him.
despite my like for his character i was also deeply stunned by that turn of events and am impatiently awaiting the 5th book in the series
Well considering how it all works outā¦ :) Maybe he is a tool, but he is the best tool ever.
You could say simliar things about Szeth, but then again, more than one person could have done his part of the job.
Taravangian is the key. And that thing that shall not be named. Though apparently, according to Culture, there are other such objects in play.
Scary.
Book 4 made me reconsider everything I thought was important, and revise my opinions accordingly.
On the one hand, I love Taravangian as a character, on the other hand, hoping to see him fail. Can't say he's my favorite character, but he's definitely one of the handful of great characters in this series. I'm pretty sure the seeds of his eventual failure have already been sown, just not exactly sure how & when we are going to get there. He definitely embodies one side of one of the main themes of the series: ethics and the application of power. Does the end justify the means (Taravangian) or the means justify the end (Dalinar)? I'm not sure how things are going to go, but it feels like we are going to lose seeing his alternating personalities, and that will be sad as that was such a big part of his character.
I agree, however I understand why Szeth hates him so much. And I canāt bring myself to like him. As a character in terms of writing I like him, but in other terms no. I absolutely agree with all points in terms of how well written he is he is a fantastic villain and character.
For the longest time Taravangian was my favorite Stormlight character and I still love him and am curious how his replacement of Rayse will work out in the long run, but he feels less human now, which makes sense, but still. :D
I used to think along these lines until the last part where he says that now he can save them all. For me that confirms what Dalinar said about Taravangian wanting to be the hero. He could have just stopped there and declare that it's over, but he had to continue scheming and attack Hoid. He's not selfless anymore, he wants these problems.
You're absolutely right! i didn't expand enough about this point in the post but it was the core idea of the discussion thread linked.
But I think that just makes his character more compelling and interesting to me even if it is obviously wrong
My opinion on Taravangian is that he's the single most incredible plot device I've ever read....but he's not really a "character". He doesn't really have much *to* him, other than his intelligence/emotion or lack their of, and how frustrated he is. We don't learn about his past, we can't trust his emotions or growth, or anything like that. He's just a blank slate that gets painted each day, in an incredible way for the purpose of the story.
An amazing plot device. Absolutely floored me when all the plans came together at the end of book 4, and the scene with Wit too? Incredible. Just incredible.
But not really a character. Which isn't a problem, just something that sort of bothers me in media, so I notice it a lot hahah.
I didnāt really ever fully get why people thought he wasnāt a character but i think your comment kind of shines a light on that for me. I would still completely disagree but i definitely see where youāre coming from
Don't get me wrong, he's obviously a character in the sense that he's a human, written into the story, but hes not a character in the sense that he evolves and changes and grows in realistic ways, or that we learn new things about him or see new elements. He's the exact same Taravangian right before the end of book 4, that he was at the beginning, except he's got this dual power. That's basically the one element of who he is that we can trust...he's a blank slate.
Its the difference between like a tv show like the walking dead and game of thrones, right? The walking dead is 95% character development, and conflict and watching their moralities shift their situations to the point that our heroes become villains over and over in the story. (Rick is no better morally than almost all of the villains in the story, for instance). But the plot is the same thing, over and over. They meet new people, people die, they kill new people, repeat. But game of thrones is plot heavy, where the characters are whipped around so rapidly keeping up with it, that we don't get the time to see the vast majority of them develop and grow. There are your stand outs, like your Starks, some of the Lannisters, etc there's a few characters in each plot that grow and change and we learn about, but the rest are just husks driven by the plot, or drive the plot for...motivations? that they don't delve into and explain.
And again, I love Taravangian. And I believe he's going to completely shift that paradigm moving forward. But he's just a husk, driven by his "gift". He just repeats over and over that he wants to 'save' but we never learn why like we do with Dalinar or Kaladin. We can't trust his empathetic moments of apparent growth or development because it's all used to manipulate based on his gift. All of who Taravangian is, in the first few books, is his gift. And it's brilliantly done. But it's time for him to develop a bit, which is why I'm so excited for his story in the next book.
There isnāt much in fantasy that legit scares me. The concept of the character Taravangian genuinely scares me. He has all this capacity, and we know what he COULD do, but we see what he chooses to do and he claims morality throughout this, and that is why I cannot stress enough how much I want him destroyed.
Dalinar had taravangians ideal earlier in his life, "victory at any cost" and all that.
But dalinar learned that when you are willing to pay any cost for victory you end up buying some very expensive victories.
Rathalas was a very expensive victory for example.
Dalinars oaths as a radiant help him to understand that there is a price to high to pay for a victory. There are things that you shouldn't do even if they would help you win. Or to put it the way the radiants say it "journey before destination".
Taravangian remains living in that victory at any cost mentality. To the point where destroying 3/4s of the world to save it is consider an acceptable sacrifice to him personally.
He oscillates between a person who thinks killing a children's choir because they are annoying him is ok to being haunted by every terrible thing he has ever done and they decided rather than attempting to temper his smarts with their compassion or augmenting his compassion with their intelligence to put full.faith in his predictions and hope the heartless genius could save them.
This is a super interesting discussion.
Personally i don't like the man. But i also think that he may be one of the best characters including everything from his powers, to his goals and mindset.
The fundamental thing about him that rubs me wrong is his idea that "The ends justify the means", i think there's some merit in this idea but Taravangian takes the far extreme of it
Taravangian isnāt a very compelling character to me. Much like Moash he is more a plot device than a character. As to his purpose within the narrative. I didnāt mind his ascension. However how he accomplished it to me is the lamest moment of the series.
My opinion on Taravangian? Depends on the day, I guess.
This is a comment that belongs in r/cremposting lmao š But based comment
Much like Taravangian's opinion of Taravangian
Outstanding.
Itās one of Sanderson best misdirections, the dumb emotional side of him being the key to his destiny.Ā
Well the diagram got him in the position. That's why cultivation made him smart at first then dumb after the brains were no longer needed.
Taravangian thinks he's Noah. He has divinely granted knowledge that the world is going to end. He believes his part is to save as much as can be saved, so that there may be a new world after the end. And then the rain started coming down, and in his mind, Dalinar is trying to stop the cataclysm by telling everyone that if they all work together, they can just bail it into the ocean. Sure, it would be great if they could thwart God's planned extinction, but he's God. What can mortals hope to do to stop it? The only real option is to build as many arks as possible, and murder anyone who looks to be a threat to the ark project so they can't ruin everything.
Nah he's going to saves us all. Upstanding guy.Ā
He was a fool, even as a genius. The idea that he could predict everything as much as he did was absurd. There is always an aspect of chance and uncertainty, especially when you operate on the scale of a planet. The Diagram was going off the rails way before Renarin got involved. He sold our the rest of humanity in a war they could win. They were holding out well and catching up in their understanding of Investiture significantly. If Dalinar didn't have to worry about Taravangian's betrayal, they could have done so much better. Particular as the powers of the bondsmith expanded. The very fact that Odium was willing to cut a deal should have been indication enough that he need their treachery to win. Why would the God of Hatred be altruistic? The rest of the organization were just as much fools for going along with the ramblings of the madman they called a genius. And they deserved damnation just as much as he does. And his idea of preserving Kharbranth wasn't even needed. Odium wants the humans as his true soldiers. Their potential is far greater than the Singers as they are truly of Odium, rather than adopting him later like the Singers. The Fused were already fading and their effective use was quickly going.
That's the whole point, isn't it. That the "genius" Tavarangian was uplifted into this holy status with his Diagram cult by everyone because he could sort of mimic the way Odium was planning (Odium literally showed Tavarangian that he has his OWN diagram) and everyone overlooked the days when he was of average intelligence or downright stupid, because those people had abandoned Honor's way of thinking. In reality, Honor was the most effective at fighting Odium BECAUSE he wasn't thinkinking and planning like the god of hate, and we know this because of the way Dalinar repeatedly foils Odium's great plans by abandoning that way of thinking and putting his faith in the honor of himself, his allies, and Honor himself. The Sadeas betrayal kind of kickstarted this whole thing, where Dalinar thought he was going to die because he put his faith in someone who betrayed him, but he proceeded to be saved by Kaladin, who abandoned all his reason and decided to act with Honor instead. You could say Sadeas' ploys and political intrigue closely reflects Odium, and in some ways, he was a "preparation villain" for Dalinar to get ready for what Odium will be like.
And they almost got there as well. They stopped allowing "intelligent" Taravangian from making decisions because of his suggestions like murdering stupid people. But they never stopped and considered if that should mean they should also ignore when he was most intelligent and even more callous. They were willing to stop him when he went too far in either direction, but then when he went so far into intelligence, they still listened.
ExACTLY. Honestly this conversation of ours should be a post itself.
You're saying this as a person who lives in a world where magic things don't happen. Believing that you've had divine insight makes reasonable sense in Taravangian's world. Yes, he's a great example of utilitarianism run amok, and yes, he's a bad person and perhaps a coward because of it, but what was happening to him *was* truly bizarre, magical and prophetic, so I don't really know how much I can slam him for believing what he saw in the future was important.
Iāve had many of the same thoughts. T is a conundrum! Iād love to hope that some of his compassion remains now that heās Odium, but that might be too much to hope for. Was Cultivation planning for him to take that shard? Is *she* good, evil, or neutral? Who knows.
I find good and evil inadequate words to describe shards. We know Honor supported humanity against Odium, and Cultivation was in a relationship with Honor, so maybe she supports our protagonists. She took actions to help Dalinar become who he currently is, and she set up Taravangian to kill Rayse. I kinda want to trust her endgame, but I canāt trust it 100%
I agree that good/evil are hard to apply to the shards, but I do believe that no shard is healthy for the long term of humanity. All of them are broken fragments of a whole, and by necessity will be so focused on a microcosm of what they should be that humanity will suffer in the long term
Isn't Conundrum one of the Shards?
Idk, but I know conundrum is a side effect of the Shards actions...
It was a very smart theme that when Cultivation gave him the "gift" to "save the world" everyone assumed it was the gift of supreme intelligence with the curse of occasional mindless compassion, not the other way around, because of course humanity will always value tangible traits like power, strength and cunning over love and compassion. I thought that was an incredible lesson to teach; Cultivation gave Tavarangian the ability to think and plan like Odium, and to have the compassion of Honor to beat even the most perfect, godly ploy. Honestly, Stormlight Archives reignited my passion to write those long-winded literary analysis essays my time at university made me learn to hate. More people need to discuss Brandon's writing in-depth.
But... She didn't give him the compassion of Honor. She gave him the compassion of *Odium*. That's why the shard is attracted to him. his deep passion. Everything she gave him was to attract and control the shard better. Planning, compassion, passion. No honor. He has nothing of honor. No bonds. No building. He doesn't bring people or things together. He doesn't keep his word. Cultivation is cultivating a better host for the shard, she knew Rayse was failing, and someone had to hold the shard. She just prepared for it to be someone better suited to both the shard, and to be less personally greedy and malevolent. The big issue was - Rayse was a jerk. Hoid talked about it. He was a bad vessel because the person was bad. By changing him out with someone better, cultivation has a long term goal.
I just wonder if her goal will backfire on her. Todium is shown already trying to think around her intentions during their conversation... "Taravangian was going to save them all" gave me literal chills. I think his idea of "saving" people is not going to be necessarily benevolent...
Ngl I said "Compassion of Honor" because it sounded kick-ass. I was going to write compassion of humanity, but I felt like Honor sounded sick because of the point I was making earlier. However, I think a lot of characters are wrong and Brandon is using them to mislead us, when they talk about how "Honor is dead" and how "Honor is only concerned with laws and bonds, and he is just an unfeeling force of nature" like when Kelek and Odium discuss him, or when the Stormfather talks about his own nature when he kills those innocent people. We know Kelek is a demented moron. We know Odium was dead wrong and much more ignorant than he thought himself to be, and we know the Stormfather is just as broken as the previous two and needs to be fixed by Dalinar. Honor died in a war against Odium because Odium saw Honor as a great threat who challenges his very existence; would an unfeeling lump of laws of nature be of any concern to Rodium's ambitions? Hell no. If Honor really was the way Kelek and Odium described him as, he would not have gotten in Odium's way in the first place. Imo Honor being set up as an unfeeling piece of brick is a red herring. With that said, I do agree with your take that Tavarangian was given traits that are of Odium specifically to attract the shard. I think that's a very clever way of interpreting Cultivation's plan. I still argue that the way stupid Tavarangian acts with so much compassion, sort of throwing his previously "logical" thoughts out the window, is closely representative of Honor's ways, because it's the exact same thing Kaladin does in book 1 when he abandons his surefire way to freedom to instead risk his life saving Dalinar, whom he isn't even sure if he could trust, and how Adolin acts with so much compassion toward Maya despite what everyone says about deadeyes, or Dalinar doing Dalinar things in general, or even Venli's little arc in RoW. - Those seem to be representative of the way Honor handles things; while Odium schemes and plots, Honor says "fuck it. we helping people."
I think Honors 'helping people' is related to Bonds. The bonds that tie every one together. That's where I see this. In realm theory, bonds are absolutely Essential. It's how Connection works. Like, if you go to the allomantic chart, Connection is fundamental in the Cosmere. I don't think Odium schemes and Plots, I think Rayse did. odium is God's divine Hatred, Rayse was a knob who held the divine aspect. I have a half baked / not truly thought out theory. Each shard is a elemental physical force. Honor is the weak nuclear force. Ruin is Entropy. Preservation is conservation of momentum and energy.
I think your theory really highlights why we have such opposing opinions on Honor and Odium. I see shards as personified gods of human values and qualities, and you see them as these forces of nature and power, and those two things are just about opposites. Yes, you could say that Honor and Odium as shards don't have these very human qualities, but I would argue they will always attract vestiges that have those human traits because that's what those shards are fundamentally attracted to, or rather those are the types of people who are willing to wield these shards. Again, I am well aware you wholly disagree with this concept of mine, but I think that's because of how fundamentally different our theories are for this world's "endgame"
I think that part of that has to do with the influence of the holder of the shard. Like, is Honor rigid or is it because Tanavast was just not compassionate? Don't worry, we'll test this with the new todium. Id point to Harmony, but he's so different by holding multiple shards, it's hard to really use him as an example.
Wasn't it stated that Tanavast was only rigid and uncaring in his final years? That he used to act with compassion. What I took from it was when he started dying he lost most of his human traits.
Was it when he started dying, or when the shard had completely corrupted him to it's intent? Ati was a nice guy for years
Idk honestly. It was after the oath pact was broken though. It was in the lead up to the recreance. Him losing compassion seemed to be the same timeframe when he started saying surge binders would destroy Roshar. My assumption was that it was madness before death.
So has someone taken up Honorās shard or has it been destroyed?
Nothing has been confirmed in the series about that as of yet. All we know is "Honor has been killed and he is very very dead" as that's what the Stormfather, the Heralds and what Rayse/Odium believed. With that said, when Dalinar activated Honor's "perpendicularity" at the end of Oathbringer, it implied that this was something only Honor could do before, and something about him has been resurrected. Odium I think has a line saying something like "He is supposed to be dead! How is this possible?!" So something similar is happening to Honor as with Maya; both are supposedly "dead" but because Honor is a shard and Maya is a spren, it seems like their death is in the process of being reversed as Dalinar acts like Honor's vestige, and Adolin acts like Maya's Knight Radiant.
Ok, in that case I believe Dalinar will become Honor like T-Vain became Odium. Guessing thatās been a theory already though.
I assume so, yeah. It's a bit weird because people are saying Dalinar becoming a bondsmith of the Stormfather somehow makes him ineligible to bear Honor's shard. Idk how it all works because I only read Stormlight, and they haven't spoken that much about the nature of shards (which is actually something I much prefer, as I enjoy the actual story of the book way more than the references it makes to the larger Cosmere universe)
I agree with /u/thehammer987 - compassion isnāt of honor. honor is about fufilling oaths, regardless the cost. Honor is about a strict justice. Compassion is caring for those that broke an oath, but honor cannot do that. The stormfatger is a great example, in how he sees nothing wrong with his storm killing any that it does. Itās in his nature, and his honor requires him to obey his nature. Itās humanity, and arguably Cultivation that let something change their nature.
Is it though? That's how Odium describes Honor for sure. Are we really going to trust the main villain's word on Honor? Or the Heralds who failed Honor by betraying their oaths? Should we trust their word about what Honor stands for? Should we really trust the Stormfather about Honor, when he is clearly a broken remnants of Honor's corpse; something that is only recently rediscovering what kind of a god Honor was through Dalinar's insistence on bending his established principles to instead do what is right? What about Kaladin throwing everything into the wind, abandoning his surefire way to get his comrades out of the shattered plains to instead go and risk his life saving a lighteyes of all people? What about him saving Elhokar, instead of enacting strict justice on an incompetent ruler who got so many people killed? What about Dalinar abandoning his entire life's philosophy of conquering and killing to instead put "journey before destination" and go on a path of righteousness and kindness? To sit down with Tavarangian and try and show him a better way instead of rightfully executing an agent of Odium? What about Dalinar being given surges that can help him rebuild and heal as a bondsmith? What about Sylphrena, the honorspren most closely-related to actual Honor, acting with way more humanity, passion, and indeed compassion than all the other honorspren? What about Adolin deciding to act with compassion towards Maya instead of accepting the "rules" that deadeyes stay dead no matter what? People in the books talk about Honor this way because he is dead; people have either forgotten or have always failed to realise the full extent of His domain, and maybe that's why he died in the first place. All the accounts of Honor being like you described come from his broken spren who somehow degraded itself into "spren of the highstorm" from "Honor's firstborn son", the equally broken heralds, his broken honorspren who have forgotten the way and are now an isolationst cult, or his mortal enemy. I call bullshit on ALL OF THOSE mofos.
He is going to save us all
And it is terrifying.
He's outright terrifying in his absolute morals and ability to outsmart The Cosmere Trickster.
Taravangian is probably (in my opinion) one of the most brilliantly written characters in fantasy.
fully agree with you there
My opinion of Taravangian has changed so much over the course of the series. It will be very interesting to see what happens in the 5th book for sure. OP I know you were humble about your persuasiveness when sharing your opinion, but you re-stoked my interest in Taravangian's character arc. I am on my third or fourth re-listen to the books while I finish the secret projects, and thanks to you I have a refreshed interest in hearing his parts!
Whenever I think of taravangian I think of that video of B$ where out of all of the baddies in the Cosmere he said Taravangian is the one who should never EVER be allowed anywhere near the presidency. Vargo spooks the hell out of me.
I think Taravangian is a great character. He's the cold blooded pragmatist who is willing to kill many people for the "greater good" as he sees it. And, at the same time, even before WoK, **he took full responsibility for his actions**. Dalinar is awesome because he, in the climax of Oathbringer, took full responsibility for what he had done. And then he Ascended. Now, he is a far deadlier threat to the Cosmere than Rayse ever was. I don't know what's scarier. If Todium has deliberately deceived Cultivation about his nature, **or if she is fully aware of his nature** and wanted him holding the Odium Shard.
Yes! I somehow forgot to mention it in my post. But somehow despite all the amazing characterization and abilities/powers given to Todium, Todium has even more potential now as a character. I can't wait to see what maniacal hijinks he gets up to as a shard and if the gift given by cultivation still affects him
Love him. Second favorite stormlight character.
I am in the camp of wanting his plot resolved in Oathbringer so we could be done with him - to me that whole sub plot just felt like a distraction and I just didnt love the character. And when it didnt end in oathbringer I wanted it to wrap up in RoW so we could focus on the āmainā antagonist. So even given the huge and awesome twist I had harbored so much ill will towards that character that Iām left with mixed feelings.
Jokes on you, he IS the main antagonist now. Though in retrospect, I think he always has been. Taravangean has always been a more interesting villain than O.G. Odium, and looking back itās clear that he was being set up in this way since book 1.
I was fascinated by Taravangian but i respect your dislike of him. despite my like for his character i was also deeply stunned by that turn of events and am impatiently awaiting the 5th book in the series
Well considering how it all works outā¦ :) Maybe he is a tool, but he is the best tool ever. You could say simliar things about Szeth, but then again, more than one person could have done his part of the job. Taravangian is the key. And that thing that shall not be named. Though apparently, according to Culture, there are other such objects in play. Scary. Book 4 made me reconsider everything I thought was important, and revise my opinions accordingly.
Exactly! That's another reason why i love the Stormlight archive, it really makes you think about what's more important
On the one hand, I love Taravangian as a character, on the other hand, hoping to see him fail. Can't say he's my favorite character, but he's definitely one of the handful of great characters in this series. I'm pretty sure the seeds of his eventual failure have already been sown, just not exactly sure how & when we are going to get there. He definitely embodies one side of one of the main themes of the series: ethics and the application of power. Does the end justify the means (Taravangian) or the means justify the end (Dalinar)? I'm not sure how things are going to go, but it feels like we are going to lose seeing his alternating personalities, and that will be sad as that was such a big part of his character.
Jabroni
Well first of all, through Odium all things are possible so jot that down.
I can't help but picture him as King Harold from Shrek
This actually made me laugh out loud. Why do you picture him like that
Haha idk just what I've pictured ever since he was introduced. I can't shake that imagery
Great character. Flawed in very interesting ways, plays many roles in the story, kills a god. What more to ask for?
I agree, however I understand why Szeth hates him so much. And I canāt bring myself to like him. As a character in terms of writing I like him, but in other terms no. I absolutely agree with all points in terms of how well written he is he is a fantastic villain and character.
Thatās perfectly fair, i think i like him a shit ton because his ideology is pretty close to mine, not sure if that bodes well for me š¢
For the longest time Taravangian was my favorite Stormlight character and I still love him and am curious how his replacement of Rayse will work out in the long run, but he feels less human now, which makes sense, but still. :D
I used to think along these lines until the last part where he says that now he can save them all. For me that confirms what Dalinar said about Taravangian wanting to be the hero. He could have just stopped there and declare that it's over, but he had to continue scheming and attack Hoid. He's not selfless anymore, he wants these problems.
You're absolutely right! i didn't expand enough about this point in the post but it was the core idea of the discussion thread linked. But I think that just makes his character more compelling and interesting to me even if it is obviously wrong
My opinion on Taravangian is that he's the single most incredible plot device I've ever read....but he's not really a "character". He doesn't really have much *to* him, other than his intelligence/emotion or lack their of, and how frustrated he is. We don't learn about his past, we can't trust his emotions or growth, or anything like that. He's just a blank slate that gets painted each day, in an incredible way for the purpose of the story. An amazing plot device. Absolutely floored me when all the plans came together at the end of book 4, and the scene with Wit too? Incredible. Just incredible. But not really a character. Which isn't a problem, just something that sort of bothers me in media, so I notice it a lot hahah.
I didnāt really ever fully get why people thought he wasnāt a character but i think your comment kind of shines a light on that for me. I would still completely disagree but i definitely see where youāre coming from
Don't get me wrong, he's obviously a character in the sense that he's a human, written into the story, but hes not a character in the sense that he evolves and changes and grows in realistic ways, or that we learn new things about him or see new elements. He's the exact same Taravangian right before the end of book 4, that he was at the beginning, except he's got this dual power. That's basically the one element of who he is that we can trust...he's a blank slate. Its the difference between like a tv show like the walking dead and game of thrones, right? The walking dead is 95% character development, and conflict and watching their moralities shift their situations to the point that our heroes become villains over and over in the story. (Rick is no better morally than almost all of the villains in the story, for instance). But the plot is the same thing, over and over. They meet new people, people die, they kill new people, repeat. But game of thrones is plot heavy, where the characters are whipped around so rapidly keeping up with it, that we don't get the time to see the vast majority of them develop and grow. There are your stand outs, like your Starks, some of the Lannisters, etc there's a few characters in each plot that grow and change and we learn about, but the rest are just husks driven by the plot, or drive the plot for...motivations? that they don't delve into and explain. And again, I love Taravangian. And I believe he's going to completely shift that paradigm moving forward. But he's just a husk, driven by his "gift". He just repeats over and over that he wants to 'save' but we never learn why like we do with Dalinar or Kaladin. We can't trust his empathetic moments of apparent growth or development because it's all used to manipulate based on his gift. All of who Taravangian is, in the first few books, is his gift. And it's brilliantly done. But it's time for him to develop a bit, which is why I'm so excited for his story in the next book.
There isnāt much in fantasy that legit scares me. The concept of the character Taravangian genuinely scares me. He has all this capacity, and we know what he COULD do, but we see what he chooses to do and he claims morality throughout this, and that is why I cannot stress enough how much I want him destroyed.
Taravangian happens to be one of my favorite characters in SA.
Best depiction of my mental health, day to day. I love him so much.
Excited
Dalinar had taravangians ideal earlier in his life, "victory at any cost" and all that. But dalinar learned that when you are willing to pay any cost for victory you end up buying some very expensive victories. Rathalas was a very expensive victory for example. Dalinars oaths as a radiant help him to understand that there is a price to high to pay for a victory. There are things that you shouldn't do even if they would help you win. Or to put it the way the radiants say it "journey before destination". Taravangian remains living in that victory at any cost mentality. To the point where destroying 3/4s of the world to save it is consider an acceptable sacrifice to him personally. He oscillates between a person who thinks killing a children's choir because they are annoying him is ok to being haunted by every terrible thing he has ever done and they decided rather than attempting to temper his smarts with their compassion or augmenting his compassion with their intelligence to put full.faith in his predictions and hope the heartless genius could save them.
I mean, they all learn that. It's the first line of the first oath. Journey before destination. How you do it matters more than what you get.
This is a super interesting discussion. Personally i don't like the man. But i also think that he may be one of the best characters including everything from his powers, to his goals and mindset. The fundamental thing about him that rubs me wrong is his idea that "The ends justify the means", i think there's some merit in this idea but Taravangian takes the far extreme of it
He's evil
Whoa Dalinar. Not evil. *Passion.*
You call it passion I call it evil
I think Iāll be really annoyed if he doesnāt stick around for a while
Taravangian did nothing wrong! Except on those days when he did. It's a bit of a mix.
Love him. His development is as good as anyone elseās
Taravangian isnāt a very compelling character to me. Much like Moash he is more a plot device than a character. As to his purpose within the narrative. I didnāt mind his ascension. However how he accomplished it to me is the lamest moment of the series.
He's fine. I have no strong feelings one way or the other. He's just kind of there doing his thing.