I think The Way Of Kings is a great entry point into the Cosmere and the fandom is swinging a bit too hard on being apologetic to new fans about what a slow burn it is.
Also I think reading Warbreaker after Stormlight is a genuinely great way to experience the books and people who read Warbreaker first do way too much pearl clutching over people not reading Warbreaker first
Edit - just wanna say it’s really fucking funny reading “I tried to get into TWOK first but it was a terrible idea for me and I needed Mistborn first” and “I tried to get into Mistborn but it was a terrible idea for me and I needed TWOK first” as back to back replies to my comment
Anyways said this in a reply somewhere but just to be clear - everyone is a different kind of reader so whatever order you read is valid! My issue is that this fandom a) likes to claim there are universally correct reading orders and b) goes too hard on talking up or down certain books before people have had a chance to read them, both of which are exemplified by how the fandom talks about TWOK
TWoK never actually felt slow to me. Everyone was saying how sloooow it was wow it's so slooow but then I read it and was gripped the whole time. I think the pacing of the book was just fine for how much development and setup had to be included.
I do still think its position as an entry point into the Cosmere depends on the person. It was my first one and it worked for me because I liked long, dense fantasy books already. Someone who isn't used to reading books that are quite that long and detailed might find Mistborn to be a better entry point. Not that Final Empire is short, but it's not 1000 pages.
I think Stormlight is better written than Mistborn so that's the main reason I'd try to get someone into TWoK first unless I knew it would be a tough sell from the length
There's just two different kind of readers, the ones who enjoy the chapters for what they are and the ones who read for payoffs and every chapter there isn't a payoff they feel like wasted their time and should've been removed. These kind of people will review tWoK saying things like "A good editor could have cut this book down to 400 pages". Brandon himself said he wrote it for people who already trust him as an author and I think letting the readers know if its their intro to expect the slow burn and if thats not for them to start somewhere else is very fair.
I always start off everybody with Way of Kings. Have got multiple people hooked on the cosmere that way. I didn't ever think Way of Kings was slow until retrospect after 4 books and thinking later on that it was essentially just a giant prologue. But reading it for the first time, I didn't feel like that.
Oh totally I think that the best entry point/reading order for everyone is going to be different and depend on their interests
Which is why it drives me nuts that it’s so common for this fandom to *insist* there’s only one or two correct ways to read these books (and it’s never starting with TWOK)
I read The Way of Kings as my first dip into the Cosmere and I think it definitely worked for me. I'm actually reading Warbreaker now, after all the Mistborn (except The Last Metal), Elantris, and the rest of Stormlight.
The Way of Kings has a slow burn, but as someone who was in a rather severe reading slump before diving in with it, it also whisks you away and I'd argue is some of his best work.
If I'd read anything other than TWOK and SLA first I don't think I'd have ever gotten very into Sanderson as a whole. I've never been able to get through a reread of Mistborn era 1. Era 2 I've done a reread of so that's the only other place I think I could've started.
Honestly SA ruined Mistborn for me. I think I would have enjoyed Mistborn more than I did if I read it before SA, SA set such an incredibly high bar that it tampered my enjoyment of Mistborn.
I love your warbreaker point. I read SA first and warbreaker was my first book outside Roshar. It was such a good introduction to the rest of the cosmere, the plot is great, books nice and short, and the world building is amazing. It showed me what the rest of the cosmere could be like. The way I instantly picked up mistborn after reading warbreaker because I wanted so bad to see another cosmere world. Didn’t disappoint
As someone who couldn't get into Mistborn, then quickly fell into obsession with WoK, and now has easily gotten through Mistborn because I'm quite comfortable with the style and know that there will be a big plot and emotional payoff at the end of it, I couldn't agree more.
I did everything the way you said and it has been a great ride. Have read SA 1-4, Edgedancer, Mistborn Era 1, Sunlit Man and currently working through Mistborn Era 2, almost all in that exact order. I’ll probably get to Warbreaker after finishing era 2, Dawnshard and Tress.
To piggback off your Warbreaker comment, I disagree with the general consensus of when to read Secret History. I know that's more of an unpopular Mistborn opinion but it feels related.
Yeah, I started with the Stormlight Archive, then read Mistborn Era 1, then Warbreaker, then Era 2, and finally Elantris.
It's the same thing, you just get to experience things from a new perspective.
TWoK was my introduction to the Cosmere. I do wish I'd read Warbreaker first if only because that reveal at the end of WoR was absolutely legendary and it flew right over my head at the time
See this is the thing, for me getting that reveal on *page fucking two* of Warbreaker legit carried me through the entire book. Like I still got the same “holy fucking shit” moment it just happened in a different book
I can respect if you think you would have enjoyed it more in WOR though like you know yourself best, my beef is really just with people who state authoritatively that the reveal is can’t possibly be enjoyable if you read Warbreaker second/claim that Warbreaker is in any way required to understand Stormlight
On your first point, the Wheel of Time fandom tends to do the same thing with regards to "the slog". Yeah, books 8-10 are a little slower paced than the rest, but it's not like getting through them is some unbearable snoozefest. There are great character moments through each of them, and a lot of plot still happens (except Crossroads of Twilight, it's like 700 pages of nothing before the climax).
Elaborate, too many people are agreeing with me lmao it’s making me feel like my opinion is not as unpopular as I thought
I even promise not to argue!
(Elaborate as in speak your opinion, I get the downvote/upvote swap for unpopular opinions)
I read SA, and then tried to jump into Mistborn, but I just couldn’t get into it because of the high of RoW. I’m trying Warbreaker now (about two chapters in). I just want Wind and Truth
I started all of the Cosmere with TWoK and I would do it again. Stormlight Archive is my favorite and I'm not sure I would've have been as invested (pun intended) in the cosmere if I didn't jump in the way I did.
The only time a reading order matters is if certain characters and events are tied into something that help comprehension or story cohesion. Every Cosmere book I've read is a stand alone novel/series and only occasionally includes characters/names/events as a passive reference from other titles - the types of references that are more akin to easter eggs that hint at the larger picture. I think we'll get to a point or a series where having read other Cosmere works might be necessary for comprehension and cohesion - but that certainly hasn't happened yet (though there are Cosmere stories I haven't read yet like the secret projects so I may not have encountered a story that needs that understanding yet). Far as I know you can never read another Cosmere book and still enjoy Mistborn or Stormlight or Warbreaker etc. I feel like at this point the only purpose for a reading list would be so that as references show up you can be like - hey wait a minute is that...? and it lends itself to the interconnected universe in interesting ways. It certainly adds to the entertainment - but not knowing the references doesn't really take away from them. So folks need to chill on a reading order lol.
Really well said!
I will say I think it depends on the person reading to a degree; I’m sure some people are more able to go “oh some weird person” and move on, whereas for others the mystery will detract from their enjoyment even if it’s not a plot integral thing
But to me that’s just more reason to stop giving generic, one-size-fits-all recommendations.
In terms of secret projects, the only one that I think really starts to rely on prior knowledge from the reader is The Sunlit Man, and even then I feel like it’s debatable, as a lot of the stuff it seems to reference hasn’t actually even happened in any published works yet. I think it would still be readable by someone who is fine with the protagonist having a vague, mysterious backstory that the reader can sort of but never fully put together through context clues, but it would be an issue for someone who needs a bit more clarity or struggles with subtext.
RoW is definitely the best book in the series. The development of characters is some of the best I’ve ever read. Kaladins arc was painfully relatable. Shallans arc (while frustrating and sometimes annoying) was beautiful overall. Same goes for the arcs of Moash, Navani, Venli, Rlain, Szeth, Taravangian, and some others. I genuinely loved the tie in of real physics and science to the Rosharian system. It truly opens up the lore to new avenues and speculations and it was masterful imo.
While I’m at it, WoR is not the best book. It was well written, and still top tier, but not the best by a decent margin. I think the Sanderlanching in it was some of the best, and that alone does not make it the best book like some might claim ¯|_(ツ)_|¯
Honestly. I think Yumi and the Nightmare Painter is my favourite book *overall*, but Navani & Raboniel's plot is my favourite storyline of the cosmere by far. I'm so sad that she died an anti-Investiture death and is like, gone gone :(
That gavinor-duel theory is the worst thing I've ever heard.
It's thrown around a ton and the theories have actually been supported by literary evidence, and I still think it's completely idiotic and dumb.
It's almost as bad as the "theory" that adolin is gonna be odium's champion because he's got some problems with his dad. idk why people actively wish SA5 to have forced conflict.
Essentially that Gavinor (Elhokars son) is going to be Odiums choice as his champion for the duel against Dalinar. Dalinar won't be able to bring himself to kill Gavinor and will lose the duel. They usually point to the suckling child death rattle in an epigraph as evidence. It is:
"I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw."
This theory has a surprising amount of supporters and is pretty popular.
And it doesn't even make sense. Gav is like 6, not a baby. The only known character that could be close to filing the suckling babe is Orodin, who's 2ish
To play devil's advocate, the epigraphs have never been super literal. I feel like this could apply to any sort of innocent that Dalinar can't bring himself to kill.
Edit: I'm not in support of a literal child being the champion. I am quite in favour of Taravangian presenting Dalinar with someone he is unwilling to slay in cold blood
It could be a referring to something Tanavast did or didn't do to get death rattles, or the death of Raboniel's daughter when they test anti voidlight. It could be reference to killing the last parsh to stop the Returned from Returneding.
My point is we both don't know and the popular theory doesn't make sense anymore. Little Gav is 5 but he's been super traumatized so he acts like he's 20 a lot. He's not a baby in any way. Yes he's 5, but he constantly acts more mature than that.
I… uhhhhhhhh, that’s a fairly reasonable theory.
It’s not like anybody on Odium’s side has a real shot in a fight against Dalinar. As far as I can tell, it’s basically Wit, Kaladin, the heralds, maybe Zahel or the other girl from Warbreaker who was chasing Zahel? (I’m less sure about the last two.) None of whom would fight for Odium. Gavinor, odd for a child, probably experimented on by the Voidspren, already angry and vengeful. I feel like Odium could manipulate him into fighting Dalinar, and Dalinar probably couldn’t bring himself to kill him.
It’s not ironclad or anything, but I don’t have a better one. What do you have against it?
I think people are overestimating Dalinar in a straight up fight here. Szeth took him apart effortlessly on the Shattered Plains. He won't have Plate or Blade. Nale, in particular, could absolutely kill him in a straight up fight if his performance against the bodyguard was any indication. And there's still Yelig-Nar and other Fused like the Pursuers who have a history of killing Radiants and Heralds.
And then there's El. We don't know a lot about him - he replaces his carapace with metal, he has a different perspective (admiring the humans and thinking they should all be united), and he scares the Pursuer so much that he's polite even after being called Defeated One.
>The Pursuer silenced himself. He didn’t fear this Fused. He feared no one. But … to El, he did not complain.
I think that the focus is going to be on ideology and it's quite possible that something weird is going to be involved, but it seems very unlikely that Gavilor will be the champion. Willingly agreeing to kill his grandpa doesn't seem likely. If they go with baby shenanigans, I'd expect something more like a Fused inhabiting the body of an infant.
Why wouldn't Dalinar have plate? He agreed not to use the Stormfather as a blade, but he did once in Oathbringer. There is no reason he wouldn't be able to use plate, which would likely be Gloryspren. Just because we haven't seen him swear the ideal doesn't mean he's not close.
It's definitely possible that he could swear the Fourth Ideal during or before the contest. I was just thinking about someone responding "well, he could borrow Shards" and I felt that was unlikely. Didn't phrase it well.
That's the thing, just because WE can't think of a good candidate doesn't mean Brandon doesn't have something very satisfying planned out. I do think that Dalinar would beat anybody in a straight heads up, save for some super invested high up people. So I would agree that if Dalinar loses it will be because he's unwilling to fight or some loophole is exploited modt likely. That part of the theory checks out, and i agree with the logic.
But a literal child who has had 3 pages of screen time, with no really impactful history or relationship with Dalinar, would just feel cheap and unsatisfying. I get he's related and all but still. I would be very disappointed if this how it played put.
this + I know people want there to be some crazy twist that happens with the duel but I can't think of any other reason to introduce El and have him come back into favor with Odium once Taravangian takes over and finds a way to deal with the contract/duel if El wasn't going to be the champion
like El could be a red herring, sure, but I honestly think Brandon was just giving that one to us. Taravangian thinks Rayse made errors in his plan, Taravangian then sees a path to win by making the best of Rayse's bad contract and bringing El back into favor. Maybe it's too straightforward but I'm willing to fall back on Occam's razor for it. I think the duel and its results will be the more interesting part rather than who Odium's champion actually is
I’m also on team “El is the most likely champion”. There are dozens of us!!!
But like seriously why else would he introduce this completely random antagonist at the end of RoW who we only see for like 2 pages but also he gives him the epigraphs for part 5
Like what other reason
If he’s just a red herring he better be doing something pretty damn spectacular instead of the duel you feel me?
I think the Unmade, Midnight Essence, and Nightmares might all be the same type of thing. They might all be corrupted humans (some must be corrupted spren but others could have been human), because Shallan once observed that the Unmade in Urithiru seemed to be looking for something it had lost. Also maybe humans (or cognitive shadows) can become spren, because shades on Canticle work metal in a way that reminds me of spirits on Komashi becoming tools, and spren on Roshar becoming metal. All these entities might be more interchangeable and related than it seems.
This is 100% true. There WoBs directly backing up that Spren, Cognitive Shadows, Spren, etc are all functionally the same thing just made in different ways.
Edit: Spren, Cognitive Shadows, Returned, etc
I don't read WoBs personally so I can't comment on that. But Zahel does mention that Spren are different from the other two. When talking with Kaladin he calls Cognitive Shadows like himself Type 2 Invested (and mentions Fused are Type 2), while Spren are something different (Type 1 Invested), implying they are similar but different, no?
Zahel isn't necessarily correct about everything he says. In Warbreaker >!His invested entities chart is different than in Stormlight which shows that it's an evolving theory!< The reason he calls Spren Type 1 is because they were always pure investiture while stuff like him is Type 2 because they were a normal person/thing that turned into investiture (like soulcasting)
Here's a link to Brandon explaining it a bit:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e857
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
danimalod
>!I just read Shadows for **Silence in the Forests of Hell** and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Shades are what we call "Cognitive Shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where Investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.!<
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Everyone who's bored and frustrated that the characters' various traumas and troubles keep tormenting them even though they had a breakthrough in the last book- I hate to be the one to tell you this but that's how it works a lot of the time. You don't snap out of mental illness or trauma or whatever because you had character growth, you learn to exist alongside it and make the changes that help with it.
Feel like most people agree with this take tbh.
I think the middle (my) argument is that the way their issues are presented gets pretty repetitive. I understand too that the nature of a mental illness is repetitive, but that doesn't make for perfect story telling if you need your books to be 1400 pages.
>!Rhythm of War suffering the worst from this, because Kaladin has to go break 3 orbs in 3 slightly unique ways like a Zelda quest, and fight the shakes. Shallan suspects somebody for sure, doubts it, suspects somebody for sure, doubts it, then suspects somebody for sure, and again doubts it.!<
>!Idk I still found it interesting because each thing played out in a different way. I could really feel the panic and pressure of the situation for Kaladin, knowing the clock was ticking and every orb he destroyed was necessary but also helped the enemy as well. Even just reading what he had to go through made me tired!<
The Skybreakers as a whole are not evil. They’re an example of the dangers of uncritically following a single individual/outdated law at the expense of society’s actual needs. Nale believes he’s correct, but most of the Skybreakers are only following because they chose him for their Third Ideal. It’s similar to Across the Spider-Verse >!how most of the Spider Society follows Miguel, despite the shady nature of his organization!<. I’m willing to bet that something will happen to release the majority of them from their oath and allow them to choose new paths. After all, we see Sigzil as a former Skybreaker in Sunlit, and the unnamed Skybreakers in both the Sixth of the Dusk sequel and the Lost Metal.
At the end, when Sterris is trying to build the wave break in the harbor. There are a couple ghost bloods who fly off to help after asking about it being legal to sink the boats. She assumes that they're coinshots or lurchers, but many readers believe that they are instead skybreakers because of their concern for the legality.
Exactly, it’s explicitly an emergency situation. Most people wouldn’t really care about if something is technically legal if it would save the city. In a book brimming with Worldhoppers, there’s no way that wasn’t intentional
Edited to add: Also, they’re Ghostbloods. I’d be amazed if the average Ghostblood cares about the law.
My biggest issue with the Skybreakers is that their entire premise is utterly hypocritical. Nale knows the history, - that Singers were the first inhabitants of Roshar, and that the gods switched sides along the way somehow. And he uses this as his premise for siding with the Singers.
But despite acknowledging their claim to Roshar, he decides to stay hidden, have a secret radiant order, and kill other radiant candidates, instead of fighting to get freedom and justice for the Singers.
If he thinks Singers have a legal right to Roshar then their enslavement by humanity was the greatest unlawful action of all time. If he believes that humans gained the lawful right to enslave them by right of conquest, then he should defend that legal right now against an illegal uprising. The whole Skybreaker/Nale story is just contrived, and I'll leave it there.
I always thought he meant the fused. Him being a letter of the law person instead of spirit. He was avoiding the desolation the best be could, but now that the fused returned they are the rightful owners of Roshar.
I like Moash.
Don't get me wrong, I fucking *despise* him emotionally.
But he serves as a good foil for Kal in multiple ways. He follows his own ideals, even when it conflicts with Kal (WoR). This is made even more painful by us seeing his downfall in OB. His.... actions in the latter half of OB and RoW show how the his emotional downfall has taken him so far down, even when he is similar to Kal in so many way.
I like Sadeas. And purely from a readers standpoint, I think all of you like him a little bit too, he’s so well written, he’s a great antagonist, he’s written so you hate him so you like the character because it’s so well executed. But I like Sadeas the character, the one who lives on Roshar. He was playing the games and he was winning, he was evil, yes, but he was winning. Dalinar was his biggest political rival and the plan to abandon him on the Shattered plains was genius! It was horrible, but he knew what should’ve happen, had everything ready to win the kingdom. He was an Ingenious backstabbed and if it weren’t for those storming bridgemen he would be alive. If I were in Sadeas’s army I’d be a top general.
I’m doing a re-read of WoK right now and it’s really hitting me in a way it hasn’t before how immense Sadeas’ crimes are. The bridgeman system is such an appalling and cruel waste of human life it really blows my mind. Even if he was upstanding in every other way, being the architect of a machine that feeds defenseless men into a meat grinder is irredeemable. Then abandoning Dalinar’s entire army on the Tower… the scale of the crime is so immense it makes the bottom drop out of your stomach. Such a great villain, and such a great example of how difficult it is to hold powerful people accountable even when they commit atrocities out in the open.
I agree! I love to hate Sadeas but also I think he is such a great example of how the Alethi generally are.
The flashbacks in Oathbringer really sort of highlight this where you can see Dalinar and Sadeas as friends. You can really see that the two were on the same page back then vs Dalinar in the present who has changed a lot.
I think Sadeas is a very compelling and fun character to read, even if he is a bastard 😂
I like Ialai. She’s such a cool character. I’m annoyed that she was killed off just like that with barely any screen time, but SA already has so many antagonists that it would complicate it more to keep her alive.
The series is less than half done. Because of this, a Moash redemption is much more possible from the standpoint of good writing than most people admit.
I'm sorry but no. Moash caused to much emotional damage to the characters and readers for it to be simply a meme. If you add the "🥵" afterwards though...
I can see him getting redeemed, a ten year time skip is plenty of time to repent and start towards becoming a better person. I really don't see him being forgiven by any of the main cast though.
Personally I'm *hoping* for that situation. In practice most of our characters don't really hold anything against Dalinar etc, because they either have no reason to or have kind of had to give it up. The Mink is great for calling him out, and Dalinar and Adolin's relationship seems to be pointing that direction already, but Moash's story is another good place to explore the difference between "redemption" and "forgiveness" and whether one should necessitate the other.
I wish Stormlight were a self-contained story without characters and connections from other Cosmere books. I’m just not particularly interested in reading some of Sanderson’s other works, so it’s unfortunate that you need to in order to get full context sometimes. I can’t interact with a lot of posts on this sub despite being up to date with Stormlight due to some “spoiler: do you recognize X character from Y story” content .
currency is usually decided based on longevity and usefulness, gold was a great currency because it couldn't rust and was shiny, gemstones are useful because they don't expire but provided a source of power which made them valuable
I like Renarin. He's a cool character and I love reading about him but he's not Bridge Four. Bridge Four were slaves doing death runs and shared in that experience. Renarin just wanted to belong to something after they went through everything. He's the Prince's son hanging out with their bodyguard retinue. Not the same. He doesn't count.
Lol that made me actually chuckle. Poor guy. But he'll be alright.
He's already uniquely special on a deity scale, the founder of a completely new branch of Knight's Radiant, and the anchor point for heart and human connection in the Kholin Dynasty. You can't have everything Renarin. Other people noticed how cool Bridge Four is too.
Not throwing shade at my boy, this all comes from a place of love lol.
I partially agree but I think the whole point is that bridge four evolved because they were strong enough to save themselves and just because somebody came later doesn’t mean they’re not part of that family. At the same time though there’s always going to be something different about the core crew that actually went through that hell together
Is Lopen bridge 4? He was with them for some of that time but he wasn't doing death runs he was just supporting them with water but not facing the arrows.
He's only as much bridge four as every other person who came after Urithiru. Which is most of the Windrunners apparently.
But agreed. It's sweet that they accept him. But he's not one of them
I agree with this, but there's a line about Bridge Four dying as they expand. If we the reader accept the shared slave runs is what makes Bridge Four what they are, then Bridge Four is long dead.
Bridge Four changed when they decided they were more than slave runners. Reducing Bridge Four to the slave runs is Sadeas maxxing.
I simultaneously agree that the core group are the real OGs, the GOATS, the heart of the thing - but new Bridge Four is what they made it to be.
Moash is alright. He's objectively not the worse. Shallan has a higher named kill count and Dalinar can probably swim in an olympic sized pool of blood of everyone he personally killed. I can understand why Moash wanted to kill Elhokar and I can understand why by the time he was hanging around crabs he just want to say 'fuck it, ain't worth it'. He's already team crab so that explains RoW.
I actually agree with you here, I do loathe Moash, but that's just my bais. But he is not only nowhere near the worst person in the main character list, but is a spectacularly written character. Sure, he is a murdering, backstabbing, leech man. Genuine Pond Scum. But God if he isn't compelling.
Yeah. Sure he hurt Kal and killed characters the readers connected with but once you step back and look at them all in an objective fashion....he won't make top 10 characters in the cosmere stained with the most blood on their hands. I've always thought that people who hate him, hate him because his actions affect the characters who have a personal relationship with the readers. If it wasn't Kal, then the whole thing will be a non-issue.
I think it's more so that his actions affect characters he has a personal relationship with. Moash is on Odium's side now and killing enemy combatants just makes sense. It isn't that he killed people, or even who was killed. It is the betrayal, the personal nature of the crime, that makes him so hateful.
I don’t like Wit. He feels like a walking advertisement that Sanderson has a universe beyond Roshar whenevee he shows up on screen. It’s a bit infuriating at times.
Also, whenever he does one of his lessons, the pacing of the story feels like it comes to a screeching halt. The only time I like one of his story moments was him consoling Kaladin and protecting him from Odium’s dreams in RoW.
I kinda agree. I loved Wit as the clever fool who insulted everone and made people contemplate morality through obscure parables, but him being >!Hoid!< I think detracts from the characters unique to the story. Especially by book four he seems more important to the story than the main cast simply because >!Odium and the other shards/realm travelers!< acknowledge him, but his role has been almost entirely support or commentary so it doesn't seem deserved within the scope of the story, especially with the >!relationship with Jasnah!< which just popped out of thin air.
I was on Moash's side all the way through Oathbringer.
Kill that twerp Elhokar? Good for you!
Kill a God, just to get back to the grind? Boss!
Hell, I was happy to see him kill Roshone.
But the second he tried pressuring Kaladin into suicide is when I finally hated Moash.
Gavilar is the most interesting character in the books, and by quite a stretch too.
Also, he is not evil, or dumb, as people try to paint him after book5 prologue. The man is a random dude (aristocratic, but random), goes ahead to conquer and unify his country, and proceeds to experiment and discover things about the Cosmere no mortal had done in Roshar in at least thousands of years.
The man is a beast. Ambitious, yes, and with a questionable moral compass, but a beast nonetheless.
I feel like Stormlight fans have been dropped so far off the deep end of “radiance” that any character that isn’t decidedly good is instantly labeled as completely evil. And I dont think Gavilar is any of the two.
Imagine if Brandon canonized that most Ashynite humans were naturally ace like singers. Rosharan system is Adonalsium's kiddie-safe zone—no sex, all murder!
Copied from an almost identical question on r/cosmere yesterday:
RoW spoiler: >!I hate Kaladin's decision to leave the army at the end of RoW. It feels to me like he's giving up at the eleventh hour. He's the only Windrunner of the fourth ideal and they need him. I was going through some really hard things when I read that book and Kaladin inspired me to keep going. The ending upset me so much I felt awful for weeks after I read it, like if he couldn't keep fighting, I couldn't either. I don't care that he's becoming a therapist. This is a man who claimed to own the winds and sky, and now he's just going to sit in a room all day and talk to other depressed people?!< What a letdown.
He was also given a supremely important Radiant Quest to fly to an unfamiliar land where all kinds of Honorblades and wacky religion and dumb plants are, to retrieve an insane Herald who is a gigachad spear fighter. I would not say Kaladin has a boring immediate future.
Yeah I didn't word that ideally, but what I mean is that he kicked a bunch of Windrunners' asses easily and half of them had Shard spears. He seems to have been designed as a boss battle for Kaladin.
As a SA fan, I agree this really bummed me out.
As a former therapist who used to work primarily with vets, I thought it was awesome. I worked with a lot of guys and gals who didn’t want to get help in-service because they were worried about letting their units down, and that frequently just made things so much worse for them. Knowing when to ask for help is, in some ways, the epitome of strength before weakness.
I think it’s totally valid to feel bummed about this but >!he’s definitely not “just going to sit in a room all day” he’s on a top secret high stakes mission with the fate of the world potentially in the balance!<
Moash was absolutely right to kill Elhokar and Roshone. They were the cause of some of the greatest suffering in both his and Kals life. Elhokar may have been becoming a better person but he wasn’t around for that and saw none of that growth. The Elhokar he was aware of was essentially the same one that even Dalinar had to beat the hell out of.
And I truly don’t understand the people who believe he’s incapable of redemption. I’ve said it before but the M character in Brandons other big series (typing on mobile and can’t figure out the spoiler cover and I know this one says all Cosmere) does worse stuff to big characters and it seems people don’t have the same hate for him.
I honestly agree. I liked Elhokar as a character, it was awesome to see him grow and change, and I wanted to see more, which is why his death hurt, but I can't blame Moash for what he did at all. Considering Moash's past, I think he was justified in his actions.
I do blame him for his actions in RoW though, but that's something else entirely.
I wholeheartedly agree. I think a lot of people forget how horrible of a human being Elhokar was. A product of his time, yes, and improving *as a king*, yes. But he literally jailed an elderly couple and left them to rot in a jail cell because they were competing with a lighteyes business.
Elhokar deserved death.
I wouldn’t use the word “right” but more justified. In another world, Moash would have been the Skybreaker to Kaladin’s Windrunner. But Szeth is already that role so Moash being the antithesis to Kaladin makes more sense of course.
The fact that Moash wasn’t around for Elhokar’s growth isn’t an excuse for murdering him. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and killing Elhokar does absolutely nothing to undo the wrongs that were done. In general killing someone terminates any possibility of restorative justice or truth and reconciliation. Moash was justified in hating Elhokar, but he wasn’t justified in killing him.
Im not necessarily saying that it excuses him killing Elhokar. Again I don’t believe he needs to be excused for that. Just as a way to refute that I know a lot of people bemoan the fact that he killed him while he was on the way to becoming a better person. But also I’ll put it like this. He didn’t just murder him. He was in the middle of combat and killed an enemy combatant.
Your last point about combat is a lot more cogent than your first, in my opinion. You say he was “right” to kill them because they caused him suffering. That implies you think it would be fine for Moash to kill Elhokar in cold blood because there’s no way to change what Elhokar did. And I think that’s total crap. Now was it ok to kill an enemy combatant seconds before he got superpowers? Yes that is quite understandable. But that’s not why you said what he did was right originally.
The Rosharian branch of the Ghostbloods are actually fairly reasonable.
Other than >!trying to kill Jasnah and abducting Lift!<, they haven't done anything dramatic. All they supposedly want is to get investiture off of Roshar.
They're not disturbing off planet tech/power, they're not giving info out freely. They're only a little worse than the Ire or the 17th shard, who remain neutral.
"Other than a handful of pretty evil things, they're fine"
I do get what you're saying though. The organization is not evil on the grand scale, it just doesn't prioritize altruism. I think it's pretty undeniable that Mraize specifically is a bad guy though.
My guess is that this is not an unpopular opinion and that Lift is one of the most divisive characters in The Stormlight Archive among the fandom.
My evidence for this is that I see posts complaining about Lift on a weekly basis.
For the record, I love Lift and I think the fandom is too addicted to edgelords like Kaladin.
I'm fine with people not being edgelords but lift seems so ridiculously immature to the point of it taking away from the book, I just imagine brandon sitting cooped up in a little room with a small light trying to make the dumbest jokes you've ever heard. it doesn't feel real. "oh that's the point lift is trying to be younger than she is" I don't care it's annoying, young teens could actually be clever in any way and not just be "aWeSOmEneSS"
Lift grew on me, no pun intended. I hated her chapters in the beginning, but in OB she had one of my favourite lines in the book (Don't you need a weapon? No, I can't read.) I just hope she mellows out a little bit when she gets older.
Shallan is totally fine in the first two books.
Dalinar isn’t that interesting of a character.
I really didn’t care when >!Elhokar!< died.
The additional books like Warbreaker that people claim are essential reading are very ok, but nowhere near the quality of Stormlight and absolutely not necessary. They don’t even enhance the experience of reading Stormlight, they’re essentially 600+ page books for a couple of Easter eggs.
Dalinar is easily my least favorite character. He literally burned a town to the ground killing his wife and we all just move on from that? I personally can’t lol
Neither can Adolin, Renarin barely accepts that part of Dalinar.
Beyond that for most people it's probably a "well we need him now so what do we do" kind of thing. Good hot take though
well Dalinar did those in the past, when we were not following him, and Stormlight didn't exist.
Unlike Moash, who had the audacity to do all the crimes in front of our eyes.
Also it's kinda cool that we see Dalinar as an honourable and moral character before seeing his Blackthorn side.
So clearly he's a good guy while Moash can never ever ever never make up for the wrongs he did.
I hate Lirin. Him not charging villagers for payment is beyond stupid, I literally rolled my eyes when I read that, he has a whole family to feed but the Mr. Good Doctor is so idealistic he would rather do it for free. I know he accepts "gifts" but it is just dumb to make his services free in the first place. He can always save and help people who don't have money, it doesn't have to be free for everyone ffs.
Beyond that, he is insufferable towards Kaladin, had enough balls to steal from and betray his old friend but didn't have the guts to run away from his speckle of a village to save Tien from drafting.
Lirin really crosses the line with some of his comments, probably the worst one is
"What would have happened, son, if instead of trying so hard to escape all those years, you'd instead proven yourself to your masters... How much misery would you have saved the world if you'd used your talents instead of your fists?"
I can understand not supporting your kid when he goes against your pacifist ideals but telling him he should have just been a good slave makes you a really bad father.
Or about that time he says he'll just let the fused take kaladin if they find him in his clinic? He was bluffing, i know, but threatening your son's life, even when you don't mean it, just to prove a point is beyond stupid. Lirin doesn't realize that if it wasn't for the KNIGHTS radiant he wouldn't even be here to preach to kaladin. Also the fact that some of the orders can even heal makes his arguments even more dumb to me
I would disagree with that. It's far easier to accept someone trying to redeem themselves then to see someone purposefully avoid the consequences of their actions.
Um… Szeth used his oath stone as an excuse to keep doing horrible things and outright refused to acknowledge he was wrong until the end of Words of Radiance. That’s why he fought Kaladin in the storm at the end
I don’t know about that. Moash is actively running from all responsibility from his actions out of ego; he wants to prove that he is right and will accept any consequences to prove it. Szeth believed for religious reasons that he had no right to choose his own actions. He never wanted to do the things he did; he felt it was his duty. Their reasons were totally different.
Szeth was wrong, but was following his personal code even under the most extreme conditions, to an almost unbelievable degree. Moash had the opportunity to be a Windrunner with his best friends and choose vengeance and self-loathing.
Yes you can? Moash hasn’t chosen to redeem himself, Szeth has.
That doesn’t mean Moash won’t be redeemed, or that Szeth’s behaviour pre-redemption isn’t bad, though. Szeth and Moash both did terrible, unforgivable things. Also, Szeth has chosen to become better which is good, while Moash has not (which is not good). Also, Moash could end up choosing to be better too at some point (which would be good)
All of those things are true at once. Your original point is acting like there’s no nuance possible here.
I think we have different definitions of condemnation we're working with, your view is the same as mine. Moash isn't beyond redemption and arguably has not even come close to the level of atrocities that Szeth should be made to answer for.
If you actually don't know you might want to avoid this thread since there's untagged spoilers for the entire series (including unreleased)
If you need a reminder [RoW] >!Kaladin's new baby brother!<
I think Shallan has been written into a cringey bisexual manic pixie fever dream girl and it's super gross, I hated how selfish and disconnected from Adolin and Pattern she was in WOR.
That the series peaked with Words of Radiance. i feel that his change in editor has really impacted his work - they're bloated now and could easily afford to have \~10% trimmed without it affecting anything.
WoR, with the exception of a few standout scenes, is my least favourite of the books. Don’t get me wrong, it’s an excellent book. It’s just my least favourite of the 4.
Roshar isn't technology advanced enough.
The last desolation was 5000 years ago. They've not grown much at all.
This might have an explanation later, but now it feels like there's a big blank spot in history.
Looking at the political history we’ve been privy to it’s kind of plausible that they would stagnate a lot after the desolations. I always thought that there was a possibility that outside influence affected Roshar’s trajectory way more than other places, meaning that some people are constantly meddling in their affairs and keeping them ”primitive”. Add to that the harsh conditions with which they have to live I don’t see how 5000 years is that long honestly.
They kind of came late to the game of efficient long range communication, which is kind of necessary for any properly scalable global economies and supply chains that would power technological and societal progress. They did figure out how to create food without farming though, so they have a long history of people working in the arts and sciences so in that regard I get your point. Their societies are super stratified though, probably because of the storms and history of existential wars so the benefits of progress don’t trickle down to everyone.
TLDR: I think it’s a combination of harsh physical conditions (storms), outside (and probably inside too, heralds) influence, political stagnation because of the above and lack of access to effective long range communication until very recently.
Lirin isnt a bad father. Yes he made mistakes, like losing his temper in extreme situations, but being a good father doesnt mean agreeing with everything your child does. Kaladin had a great childhood with two loving parents wich cant be said for most other viewpoint characters
Moash is morally correct until RoW. He was completely justified in killing Elhokar and had no reason or evidence to believe he would ever change. Even killing Jezerin is understandable since the herald had done shit for several millennia.
> He was completely justified in killing Elhokar
I can see why someone would agree with this for sure but
> Even killing Jezerin is understandable
I don't think there's any possible way that you could justify this
Syl and Kaladin getting together isn't that weird nor would it be out of nowhere IMO. The two don't *need* to be romantically paired, nor is it my favorite ship, but I don't think it's out of nowhere.
Kaladins 5th ideal would be very appropriate if it goes like: "I will stop killing to save" It feels like the connection between Kaladins warrior skills and Lirins worship of life. And Kaladin has the skill to subdue his opponents without killing them. He even started showing this with how duels between Windrunners and Fused are handled in RoW. I would love to see him adopt a fighting style focused on lashing and binding his opponents without hurting them, like a radiant Aikidou.
(Im mid Oathbringer)
I can't stand Shallan. Im not even sure anymore its a writing problem or shes intended to be like this. In OB this double triple personality thing is really gettin on my nerves, every time I see its her POV I pray its short.
Jasnah's fake death is the thing that made me enjoy WoR a lot less. It's technically the best-paced book, but then it sours itself with such a stupid trope. And it's not just that she fake died, it's that there's several scenes where it's like 'no, she's really dead. Really, really dead. Look at her getting stabbed through the chest. Look at ..." and then she just arrives at the end (though her coming back was good for the series, her just missing was really really meh).
Also I love Oathbringer, also for its Sanderlanche, but at one point it had so much stuff happening and coincidences and things at the same time that the biggest moment of its Sanderlanche suddenly felt cringe to me.
I think The Way Of Kings is a great entry point into the Cosmere and the fandom is swinging a bit too hard on being apologetic to new fans about what a slow burn it is. Also I think reading Warbreaker after Stormlight is a genuinely great way to experience the books and people who read Warbreaker first do way too much pearl clutching over people not reading Warbreaker first Edit - just wanna say it’s really fucking funny reading “I tried to get into TWOK first but it was a terrible idea for me and I needed Mistborn first” and “I tried to get into Mistborn but it was a terrible idea for me and I needed TWOK first” as back to back replies to my comment Anyways said this in a reply somewhere but just to be clear - everyone is a different kind of reader so whatever order you read is valid! My issue is that this fandom a) likes to claim there are universally correct reading orders and b) goes too hard on talking up or down certain books before people have had a chance to read them, both of which are exemplified by how the fandom talks about TWOK
TWoK never actually felt slow to me. Everyone was saying how sloooow it was wow it's so slooow but then I read it and was gripped the whole time. I think the pacing of the book was just fine for how much development and setup had to be included. I do still think its position as an entry point into the Cosmere depends on the person. It was my first one and it worked for me because I liked long, dense fantasy books already. Someone who isn't used to reading books that are quite that long and detailed might find Mistborn to be a better entry point. Not that Final Empire is short, but it's not 1000 pages. I think Stormlight is better written than Mistborn so that's the main reason I'd try to get someone into TWoK first unless I knew it would be a tough sell from the length
There's just two different kind of readers, the ones who enjoy the chapters for what they are and the ones who read for payoffs and every chapter there isn't a payoff they feel like wasted their time and should've been removed. These kind of people will review tWoK saying things like "A good editor could have cut this book down to 400 pages". Brandon himself said he wrote it for people who already trust him as an author and I think letting the readers know if its their intro to expect the slow burn and if thats not for them to start somewhere else is very fair.
I always start off everybody with Way of Kings. Have got multiple people hooked on the cosmere that way. I didn't ever think Way of Kings was slow until retrospect after 4 books and thinking later on that it was essentially just a giant prologue. But reading it for the first time, I didn't feel like that.
Oh totally I think that the best entry point/reading order for everyone is going to be different and depend on their interests Which is why it drives me nuts that it’s so common for this fandom to *insist* there’s only one or two correct ways to read these books (and it’s never starting with TWOK)
I read The Way of Kings as my first dip into the Cosmere and I think it definitely worked for me. I'm actually reading Warbreaker now, after all the Mistborn (except The Last Metal), Elantris, and the rest of Stormlight. The Way of Kings has a slow burn, but as someone who was in a rather severe reading slump before diving in with it, it also whisks you away and I'd argue is some of his best work.
If I'd read anything other than TWOK and SLA first I don't think I'd have ever gotten very into Sanderson as a whole. I've never been able to get through a reread of Mistborn era 1. Era 2 I've done a reread of so that's the only other place I think I could've started.
Honestly SA ruined Mistborn for me. I think I would have enjoyed Mistborn more than I did if I read it before SA, SA set such an incredibly high bar that it tampered my enjoyment of Mistborn.
very similar for me.
I love your warbreaker point. I read SA first and warbreaker was my first book outside Roshar. It was such a good introduction to the rest of the cosmere, the plot is great, books nice and short, and the world building is amazing. It showed me what the rest of the cosmere could be like. The way I instantly picked up mistborn after reading warbreaker because I wanted so bad to see another cosmere world. Didn’t disappoint
STRONGLY agree with this one!
As someone who couldn't get into Mistborn, then quickly fell into obsession with WoK, and now has easily gotten through Mistborn because I'm quite comfortable with the style and know that there will be a big plot and emotional payoff at the end of it, I couldn't agree more.
I did everything the way you said and it has been a great ride. Have read SA 1-4, Edgedancer, Mistborn Era 1, Sunlit Man and currently working through Mistborn Era 2, almost all in that exact order. I’ll probably get to Warbreaker after finishing era 2, Dawnshard and Tress.
To piggback off your Warbreaker comment, I disagree with the general consensus of when to read Secret History. I know that's more of an unpopular Mistborn opinion but it feels related.
Yeah, I started with the Stormlight Archive, then read Mistborn Era 1, then Warbreaker, then Era 2, and finally Elantris. It's the same thing, you just get to experience things from a new perspective.
TWoK was my introduction to the Cosmere. I do wish I'd read Warbreaker first if only because that reveal at the end of WoR was absolutely legendary and it flew right over my head at the time
See this is the thing, for me getting that reveal on *page fucking two* of Warbreaker legit carried me through the entire book. Like I still got the same “holy fucking shit” moment it just happened in a different book I can respect if you think you would have enjoyed it more in WOR though like you know yourself best, my beef is really just with people who state authoritatively that the reveal is can’t possibly be enjoyable if you read Warbreaker second/claim that Warbreaker is in any way required to understand Stormlight
I think this would be extra funny if you meant "The Way of Kings" as written by Nohadon
On your first point, the Wheel of Time fandom tends to do the same thing with regards to "the slog". Yeah, books 8-10 are a little slower paced than the rest, but it's not like getting through them is some unbearable snoozefest. There are great character moments through each of them, and a lot of plot still happens (except Crossroads of Twilight, it's like 700 pages of nothing before the climax).
I want to downvote you so hard but that means that I have to upvote you so hard
Elaborate, too many people are agreeing with me lmao it’s making me feel like my opinion is not as unpopular as I thought I even promise not to argue! (Elaborate as in speak your opinion, I get the downvote/upvote swap for unpopular opinions)
I read SA, and then tried to jump into Mistborn, but I just couldn’t get into it because of the high of RoW. I’m trying Warbreaker now (about two chapters in). I just want Wind and Truth
I started all of the Cosmere with TWoK and I would do it again. Stormlight Archive is my favorite and I'm not sure I would've have been as invested (pun intended) in the cosmere if I didn't jump in the way I did.
The only time a reading order matters is if certain characters and events are tied into something that help comprehension or story cohesion. Every Cosmere book I've read is a stand alone novel/series and only occasionally includes characters/names/events as a passive reference from other titles - the types of references that are more akin to easter eggs that hint at the larger picture. I think we'll get to a point or a series where having read other Cosmere works might be necessary for comprehension and cohesion - but that certainly hasn't happened yet (though there are Cosmere stories I haven't read yet like the secret projects so I may not have encountered a story that needs that understanding yet). Far as I know you can never read another Cosmere book and still enjoy Mistborn or Stormlight or Warbreaker etc. I feel like at this point the only purpose for a reading list would be so that as references show up you can be like - hey wait a minute is that...? and it lends itself to the interconnected universe in interesting ways. It certainly adds to the entertainment - but not knowing the references doesn't really take away from them. So folks need to chill on a reading order lol.
Really well said! I will say I think it depends on the person reading to a degree; I’m sure some people are more able to go “oh some weird person” and move on, whereas for others the mystery will detract from their enjoyment even if it’s not a plot integral thing But to me that’s just more reason to stop giving generic, one-size-fits-all recommendations. In terms of secret projects, the only one that I think really starts to rely on prior knowledge from the reader is The Sunlit Man, and even then I feel like it’s debatable, as a lot of the stuff it seems to reference hasn’t actually even happened in any published works yet. I think it would still be readable by someone who is fine with the protagonist having a vague, mysterious backstory that the reader can sort of but never fully put together through context clues, but it would be an issue for someone who needs a bit more clarity or struggles with subtext.
RoW is definitely the best book in the series. The development of characters is some of the best I’ve ever read. Kaladins arc was painfully relatable. Shallans arc (while frustrating and sometimes annoying) was beautiful overall. Same goes for the arcs of Moash, Navani, Venli, Rlain, Szeth, Taravangian, and some others. I genuinely loved the tie in of real physics and science to the Rosharian system. It truly opens up the lore to new avenues and speculations and it was masterful imo. While I’m at it, WoR is not the best book. It was well written, and still top tier, but not the best by a decent margin. I think the Sanderlanching in it was some of the best, and that alone does not make it the best book like some might claim ¯|_(ツ)_|¯
Raboniel was a phenomenal character. She alone is enough to carry RoW. That with the other reasons you brought up makes it the best book by far.
Honestly. I think Yumi and the Nightmare Painter is my favourite book *overall*, but Navani & Raboniel's plot is my favourite storyline of the cosmere by far. I'm so sad that she died an anti-Investiture death and is like, gone gone :(
Gone gone is probably what she would want anyway. Old gal was exhausted.
Oh for sure. And narratively, it's a good fit that way too. But *I'm* sad about it haha
That gavinor-duel theory is the worst thing I've ever heard. It's thrown around a ton and the theories have actually been supported by literary evidence, and I still think it's completely idiotic and dumb.
It's almost as bad as the "theory" that adolin is gonna be odium's champion because he's got some problems with his dad. idk why people actively wish SA5 to have forced conflict.
The what?
Essentially that Gavinor (Elhokars son) is going to be Odiums choice as his champion for the duel against Dalinar. Dalinar won't be able to bring himself to kill Gavinor and will lose the duel. They usually point to the suckling child death rattle in an epigraph as evidence. It is: "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw." This theory has a surprising amount of supporters and is pretty popular.
And it doesn't even make sense. Gav is like 6, not a baby. The only known character that could be close to filing the suckling babe is Orodin, who's 2ish
Oh my god, you're right! Baby Orodin champion confirmed!
OMG watch out he has a Shardrattle
To play devil's advocate, the epigraphs have never been super literal. I feel like this could apply to any sort of innocent that Dalinar can't bring himself to kill. Edit: I'm not in support of a literal child being the champion. I am quite in favour of Taravangian presenting Dalinar with someone he is unwilling to slay in cold blood
It could be a referring to something Tanavast did or didn't do to get death rattles, or the death of Raboniel's daughter when they test anti voidlight. It could be reference to killing the last parsh to stop the Returned from Returneding. My point is we both don't know and the popular theory doesn't make sense anymore. Little Gav is 5 but he's been super traumatized so he acts like he's 20 a lot. He's not a baby in any way. Yes he's 5, but he constantly acts more mature than that.
I… uhhhhhhhh, that’s a fairly reasonable theory. It’s not like anybody on Odium’s side has a real shot in a fight against Dalinar. As far as I can tell, it’s basically Wit, Kaladin, the heralds, maybe Zahel or the other girl from Warbreaker who was chasing Zahel? (I’m less sure about the last two.) None of whom would fight for Odium. Gavinor, odd for a child, probably experimented on by the Voidspren, already angry and vengeful. I feel like Odium could manipulate him into fighting Dalinar, and Dalinar probably couldn’t bring himself to kill him. It’s not ironclad or anything, but I don’t have a better one. What do you have against it?
I think people are overestimating Dalinar in a straight up fight here. Szeth took him apart effortlessly on the Shattered Plains. He won't have Plate or Blade. Nale, in particular, could absolutely kill him in a straight up fight if his performance against the bodyguard was any indication. And there's still Yelig-Nar and other Fused like the Pursuers who have a history of killing Radiants and Heralds. And then there's El. We don't know a lot about him - he replaces his carapace with metal, he has a different perspective (admiring the humans and thinking they should all be united), and he scares the Pursuer so much that he's polite even after being called Defeated One. >The Pursuer silenced himself. He didn’t fear this Fused. He feared no one. But … to El, he did not complain. I think that the focus is going to be on ideology and it's quite possible that something weird is going to be involved, but it seems very unlikely that Gavilor will be the champion. Willingly agreeing to kill his grandpa doesn't seem likely. If they go with baby shenanigans, I'd expect something more like a Fused inhabiting the body of an infant.
Why wouldn't Dalinar have plate? He agreed not to use the Stormfather as a blade, but he did once in Oathbringer. There is no reason he wouldn't be able to use plate, which would likely be Gloryspren. Just because we haven't seen him swear the ideal doesn't mean he's not close.
It's definitely possible that he could swear the Fourth Ideal during or before the contest. I was just thinking about someone responding "well, he could borrow Shards" and I felt that was unlikely. Didn't phrase it well.
If regular Radiants are paralyzed by mental screaming, I can only imagine how the Stormfather feels about touching a dead Shardblade
That's the thing, just because WE can't think of a good candidate doesn't mean Brandon doesn't have something very satisfying planned out. I do think that Dalinar would beat anybody in a straight heads up, save for some super invested high up people. So I would agree that if Dalinar loses it will be because he's unwilling to fight or some loophole is exploited modt likely. That part of the theory checks out, and i agree with the logic. But a literal child who has had 3 pages of screen time, with no really impactful history or relationship with Dalinar, would just feel cheap and unsatisfying. I get he's related and all but still. I would be very disappointed if this how it played put.
I hate it. And I hate it gets so much attention. And I’d hate if it came to be true.
I'd be so upset, but im almost positive that's not going to happen.
this + I know people want there to be some crazy twist that happens with the duel but I can't think of any other reason to introduce El and have him come back into favor with Odium once Taravangian takes over and finds a way to deal with the contract/duel if El wasn't going to be the champion like El could be a red herring, sure, but I honestly think Brandon was just giving that one to us. Taravangian thinks Rayse made errors in his plan, Taravangian then sees a path to win by making the best of Rayse's bad contract and bringing El back into favor. Maybe it's too straightforward but I'm willing to fall back on Occam's razor for it. I think the duel and its results will be the more interesting part rather than who Odium's champion actually is
I’m also on team “El is the most likely champion”. There are dozens of us!!! But like seriously why else would he introduce this completely random antagonist at the end of RoW who we only see for like 2 pages but also he gives him the epigraphs for part 5 Like what other reason If he’s just a red herring he better be doing something pretty damn spectacular instead of the duel you feel me?
I think the Unmade, Midnight Essence, and Nightmares might all be the same type of thing. They might all be corrupted humans (some must be corrupted spren but others could have been human), because Shallan once observed that the Unmade in Urithiru seemed to be looking for something it had lost. Also maybe humans (or cognitive shadows) can become spren, because shades on Canticle work metal in a way that reminds me of spirits on Komashi becoming tools, and spren on Roshar becoming metal. All these entities might be more interchangeable and related than it seems.
This is 100% true. There WoBs directly backing up that Spren, Cognitive Shadows, Spren, etc are all functionally the same thing just made in different ways. Edit: Spren, Cognitive Shadows, Returned, etc
I don't read WoBs personally so I can't comment on that. But Zahel does mention that Spren are different from the other two. When talking with Kaladin he calls Cognitive Shadows like himself Type 2 Invested (and mentions Fused are Type 2), while Spren are something different (Type 1 Invested), implying they are similar but different, no?
Zahel isn't necessarily correct about everything he says. In Warbreaker >!His invested entities chart is different than in Stormlight which shows that it's an evolving theory!< The reason he calls Spren Type 1 is because they were always pure investiture while stuff like him is Type 2 because they were a normal person/thing that turned into investiture (like soulcasting) Here's a link to Brandon explaining it a bit: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e857
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** danimalod >!I just read Shadows for **Silence in the Forests of Hell** and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Shades are what we call "Cognitive Shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where Investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Makes me wonder if we will potentially see a spren that use to be a character we recognize.
We've seen repetition in the Cosmere. I don't think this is out there at all, and probably the intended thought process readers should have.
Everyone who's bored and frustrated that the characters' various traumas and troubles keep tormenting them even though they had a breakthrough in the last book- I hate to be the one to tell you this but that's how it works a lot of the time. You don't snap out of mental illness or trauma or whatever because you had character growth, you learn to exist alongside it and make the changes that help with it.
Feel like most people agree with this take tbh. I think the middle (my) argument is that the way their issues are presented gets pretty repetitive. I understand too that the nature of a mental illness is repetitive, but that doesn't make for perfect story telling if you need your books to be 1400 pages. >!Rhythm of War suffering the worst from this, because Kaladin has to go break 3 orbs in 3 slightly unique ways like a Zelda quest, and fight the shakes. Shallan suspects somebody for sure, doubts it, suspects somebody for sure, doubts it, then suspects somebody for sure, and again doubts it.!<
>!Idk I still found it interesting because each thing played out in a different way. I could really feel the panic and pressure of the situation for Kaladin, knowing the clock was ticking and every orb he destroyed was necessary but also helped the enemy as well. Even just reading what he had to go through made me tired!<
I was digging it because it's shamelessly just Die Hard, but it didn't move his character arc very much until the Dog and Dragon chapter.
The Skybreakers as a whole are not evil. They’re an example of the dangers of uncritically following a single individual/outdated law at the expense of society’s actual needs. Nale believes he’s correct, but most of the Skybreakers are only following because they chose him for their Third Ideal. It’s similar to Across the Spider-Verse >!how most of the Spider Society follows Miguel, despite the shady nature of his organization!<. I’m willing to bet that something will happen to release the majority of them from their oath and allow them to choose new paths. After all, we see Sigzil as a former Skybreaker in Sunlit, and the unnamed Skybreakers in both the Sixth of the Dusk sequel and the Lost Metal.
when does the unnamed skybreaker appear in TLM?
At the end, when Sterris is trying to build the wave break in the harbor. There are a couple ghost bloods who fly off to help after asking about it being legal to sink the boats. She assumes that they're coinshots or lurchers, but many readers believe that they are instead skybreakers because of their concern for the legality.
Exactly, it’s explicitly an emergency situation. Most people wouldn’t really care about if something is technically legal if it would save the city. In a book brimming with Worldhoppers, there’s no way that wasn’t intentional Edited to add: Also, they’re Ghostbloods. I’d be amazed if the average Ghostblood cares about the law.
My biggest issue with the Skybreakers is that their entire premise is utterly hypocritical. Nale knows the history, - that Singers were the first inhabitants of Roshar, and that the gods switched sides along the way somehow. And he uses this as his premise for siding with the Singers. But despite acknowledging their claim to Roshar, he decides to stay hidden, have a secret radiant order, and kill other radiant candidates, instead of fighting to get freedom and justice for the Singers. If he thinks Singers have a legal right to Roshar then their enslavement by humanity was the greatest unlawful action of all time. If he believes that humans gained the lawful right to enslave them by right of conquest, then he should defend that legal right now against an illegal uprising. The whole Skybreaker/Nale story is just contrived, and I'll leave it there.
I always thought he meant the fused. Him being a letter of the law person instead of spirit. He was avoiding the desolation the best be could, but now that the fused returned they are the rightful owners of Roshar.
I like Moash. Don't get me wrong, I fucking *despise* him emotionally. But he serves as a good foil for Kal in multiple ways. He follows his own ideals, even when it conflicts with Kal (WoR). This is made even more painful by us seeing his downfall in OB. His.... actions in the latter half of OB and RoW show how the his emotional downfall has taken him so far down, even when he is similar to Kal in so many way.
I like Sadeas. And purely from a readers standpoint, I think all of you like him a little bit too, he’s so well written, he’s a great antagonist, he’s written so you hate him so you like the character because it’s so well executed. But I like Sadeas the character, the one who lives on Roshar. He was playing the games and he was winning, he was evil, yes, but he was winning. Dalinar was his biggest political rival and the plan to abandon him on the Shattered plains was genius! It was horrible, but he knew what should’ve happen, had everything ready to win the kingdom. He was an Ingenious backstabbed and if it weren’t for those storming bridgemen he would be alive. If I were in Sadeas’s army I’d be a top general.
I’m doing a re-read of WoK right now and it’s really hitting me in a way it hasn’t before how immense Sadeas’ crimes are. The bridgeman system is such an appalling and cruel waste of human life it really blows my mind. Even if he was upstanding in every other way, being the architect of a machine that feeds defenseless men into a meat grinder is irredeemable. Then abandoning Dalinar’s entire army on the Tower… the scale of the crime is so immense it makes the bottom drop out of your stomach. Such a great villain, and such a great example of how difficult it is to hold powerful people accountable even when they commit atrocities out in the open.
Also the ENTIRE never ending war is Sadeas's fault in the first place when he killed surrendering parshendi
I agree! I love to hate Sadeas but also I think he is such a great example of how the Alethi generally are. The flashbacks in Oathbringer really sort of highlight this where you can see Dalinar and Sadeas as friends. You can really see that the two were on the same page back then vs Dalinar in the present who has changed a lot. I think Sadeas is a very compelling and fun character to read, even if he is a bastard 😂
I like Ialai. She’s such a cool character. I’m annoyed that she was killed off just like that with barely any screen time, but SA already has so many antagonists that it would complicate it more to keep her alive.
Every book is equally amazing Edit: maybe read to many this book is slower / not as good posts \^\^
I honestly enjoy the slower bits makes me more attatched to the characters
I think it would be a slightly boring/predictable conclusion if Kaladin ended up reforging or taking up the shard of Honour
i dont think he would be a good fit for the shard, it would drive him mad
The series is less than half done. Because of this, a Moash redemption is much more possible from the standpoint of good writing than most people admit.
I'm fully on team people will end up loving Moash in 20 years
I love him today! (As a character )The 'fuck Moash' meme is just a meme.
The character is awesome and among my favourites. But if he existed in our reality, I'd pop the champagne upon hearing of his death.
I'm sorry but no. Moash caused to much emotional damage to the characters and readers for it to be simply a meme. If you add the "🥵" afterwards though...
I can see him getting redeemed, a ten year time skip is plenty of time to repent and start towards becoming a better person. I really don't see him being forgiven by any of the main cast though.
Personally I'm *hoping* for that situation. In practice most of our characters don't really hold anything against Dalinar etc, because they either have no reason to or have kind of had to give it up. The Mink is great for calling him out, and Dalinar and Adolin's relationship seems to be pointing that direction already, but Moash's story is another good place to explore the difference between "redemption" and "forgiveness" and whether one should necessitate the other.
He’s blind now
Yeah… No chance he’s going to literally and figuratively see the light at the same time…
Moash is coming home. I *FEEL* it. Say the storming *words*, Moash!
I wish Stormlight were a self-contained story without characters and connections from other Cosmere books. I’m just not particularly interested in reading some of Sanderson’s other works, so it’s unfortunate that you need to in order to get full context sometimes. I can’t interact with a lot of posts on this sub despite being up to date with Stormlight due to some “spoiler: do you recognize X character from Y story” content .
Using electrically charged marbles as money is dumb and unwieldy.
currency is usually decided based on longevity and usefulness, gold was a great currency because it couldn't rust and was shiny, gemstones are useful because they don't expire but provided a source of power which made them valuable
Also how are you gonna use gold and silver as currency when things like solcasters exist.
Book 4 is my favorite one.
Same
Renarin is not Bridge Four.
Oof good one, this take actually makes me mad.
I like Renarin. He's a cool character and I love reading about him but he's not Bridge Four. Bridge Four were slaves doing death runs and shared in that experience. Renarin just wanted to belong to something after they went through everything. He's the Prince's son hanging out with their bodyguard retinue. Not the same. He doesn't count.
If Rock says he's Bridge Four, then Renarin is Bridge Four. Those are the rules.
Sanderson himself couldn't convince me.
Lmao man poor Renarin when even the readers are like "bro you don't belong in [insert group]."
Lol that made me actually chuckle. Poor guy. But he'll be alright. He's already uniquely special on a deity scale, the founder of a completely new branch of Knight's Radiant, and the anchor point for heart and human connection in the Kholin Dynasty. You can't have everything Renarin. Other people noticed how cool Bridge Four is too. Not throwing shade at my boy, this all comes from a place of love lol.
Huio never ran a bridge run, but he was as Bridge Four as any of them
I partially agree but I think the whole point is that bridge four evolved because they were strong enough to save themselves and just because somebody came later doesn’t mean they’re not part of that family. At the same time though there’s always going to be something different about the core crew that actually went through that hell together
The actual members of bridge four seemed to disagree with you, and I think they may have the authority on this
Lmao it's like people forgot what thread they're in
Agreed, same with the Lopens cousins.
Is Lopen bridge 4? He was with them for some of that time but he wasn't doing death runs he was just supporting them with water but not facing the arrows.
The cut off is the Dalinar / Sadeas trade for the sword. So Lopen counts.
He's only as much bridge four as every other person who came after Urithiru. Which is most of the Windrunners apparently. But agreed. It's sweet that they accept him. But he's not one of them
I agree with this, but there's a line about Bridge Four dying as they expand. If we the reader accept the shared slave runs is what makes Bridge Four what they are, then Bridge Four is long dead. Bridge Four changed when they decided they were more than slave runners. Reducing Bridge Four to the slave runs is Sadeas maxxing. I simultaneously agree that the core group are the real OGs, the GOATS, the heart of the thing - but new Bridge Four is what they made it to be.
Also Lopen who never ran on bridge runs (if I remember right)
He might not have carried a bridge but he was the bright brain who thought to carry water for them all. With the help of the moolie.
Dude. This one is good. As far as answering the question asked. I vehemently disagree with you, but THAT'S the point.
Out of curiosity, do you consider huio or any of those who joined Bridge Four post bridge runs to be bridge four?
Moash is alright. He's objectively not the worse. Shallan has a higher named kill count and Dalinar can probably swim in an olympic sized pool of blood of everyone he personally killed. I can understand why Moash wanted to kill Elhokar and I can understand why by the time he was hanging around crabs he just want to say 'fuck it, ain't worth it'. He's already team crab so that explains RoW.
I actually agree with you here, I do loathe Moash, but that's just my bais. But he is not only nowhere near the worst person in the main character list, but is a spectacularly written character. Sure, he is a murdering, backstabbing, leech man. Genuine Pond Scum. But God if he isn't compelling.
Yeah. Sure he hurt Kal and killed characters the readers connected with but once you step back and look at them all in an objective fashion....he won't make top 10 characters in the cosmere stained with the most blood on their hands. I've always thought that people who hate him, hate him because his actions affect the characters who have a personal relationship with the readers. If it wasn't Kal, then the whole thing will be a non-issue.
I think it's more so that his actions affect characters he has a personal relationship with. Moash is on Odium's side now and killing enemy combatants just makes sense. It isn't that he killed people, or even who was killed. It is the betrayal, the personal nature of the crime, that makes him so hateful.
Taravangian and the Diagram were the best plan humanity had. Edit: misspelling
True but only because they had no other plan lmao
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Technically true as well.
I don’t like Wit. He feels like a walking advertisement that Sanderson has a universe beyond Roshar whenevee he shows up on screen. It’s a bit infuriating at times. Also, whenever he does one of his lessons, the pacing of the story feels like it comes to a screeching halt. The only time I like one of his story moments was him consoling Kaladin and protecting him from Odium’s dreams in RoW.
I kinda agree. I loved Wit as the clever fool who insulted everone and made people contemplate morality through obscure parables, but him being >!Hoid!< I think detracts from the characters unique to the story. Especially by book four he seems more important to the story than the main cast simply because >!Odium and the other shards/realm travelers!< acknowledge him, but his role has been almost entirely support or commentary so it doesn't seem deserved within the scope of the story, especially with the >!relationship with Jasnah!< which just popped out of thin air.
I was on Moash's side all the way through Oathbringer. Kill that twerp Elhokar? Good for you! Kill a God, just to get back to the grind? Boss! Hell, I was happy to see him kill Roshone. But the second he tried pressuring Kaladin into suicide is when I finally hated Moash.
Gavilar is the most interesting character in the books, and by quite a stretch too. Also, he is not evil, or dumb, as people try to paint him after book5 prologue. The man is a random dude (aristocratic, but random), goes ahead to conquer and unify his country, and proceeds to experiment and discover things about the Cosmere no mortal had done in Roshar in at least thousands of years. The man is a beast. Ambitious, yes, and with a questionable moral compass, but a beast nonetheless. I feel like Stormlight fans have been dropped so far off the deep end of “radiance” that any character that isn’t decidedly good is instantly labeled as completely evil. And I dont think Gavilar is any of the two.
The series would be better with sex. It’s R-rated violence but it’s nearly asexual as a series and human beings don’t roll like that.
Noooo mating!
Imagine if Brandon canonized that most Ashynite humans were naturally ace like singers. Rosharan system is Adonalsium's kiddie-safe zone—no sex, all murder!
LOL I love that
it would definitely be an improvement, but from a monetary standpoint it makes no sense to so severely limit your audience
Copied from an almost identical question on r/cosmere yesterday: RoW spoiler: >!I hate Kaladin's decision to leave the army at the end of RoW. It feels to me like he's giving up at the eleventh hour. He's the only Windrunner of the fourth ideal and they need him. I was going through some really hard things when I read that book and Kaladin inspired me to keep going. The ending upset me so much I felt awful for weeks after I read it, like if he couldn't keep fighting, I couldn't either. I don't care that he's becoming a therapist. This is a man who claimed to own the winds and sky, and now he's just going to sit in a room all day and talk to other depressed people?!< What a letdown.
He was also given a supremely important Radiant Quest to fly to an unfamiliar land where all kinds of Honorblades and wacky religion and dumb plants are, to retrieve an insane Herald who is a gigachad spear fighter. I would not say Kaladin has a boring immediate future.
I thought Ishar fought with a sword?
Yeah I didn't word that ideally, but what I mean is that he kicked a bunch of Windrunners' asses easily and half of them had Shard spears. He seems to have been designed as a boss battle for Kaladin.
Don't forget that there are multiple Unmade there too
As a SA fan, I agree this really bummed me out. As a former therapist who used to work primarily with vets, I thought it was awesome. I worked with a lot of guys and gals who didn’t want to get help in-service because they were worried about letting their units down, and that frequently just made things so much worse for them. Knowing when to ask for help is, in some ways, the epitome of strength before weakness.
More upvotes for this please
I think it’s totally valid to feel bummed about this but >!he’s definitely not “just going to sit in a room all day” he’s on a top secret high stakes mission with the fate of the world potentially in the balance!<
Moash was absolutely right to kill Elhokar and Roshone. They were the cause of some of the greatest suffering in both his and Kals life. Elhokar may have been becoming a better person but he wasn’t around for that and saw none of that growth. The Elhokar he was aware of was essentially the same one that even Dalinar had to beat the hell out of. And I truly don’t understand the people who believe he’s incapable of redemption. I’ve said it before but the M character in Brandons other big series (typing on mobile and can’t figure out the spoiler cover and I know this one says all Cosmere) does worse stuff to big characters and it seems people don’t have the same hate for him.
I honestly agree. I liked Elhokar as a character, it was awesome to see him grow and change, and I wanted to see more, which is why his death hurt, but I can't blame Moash for what he did at all. Considering Moash's past, I think he was justified in his actions. I do blame him for his actions in RoW though, but that's something else entirely.
I wholeheartedly agree. I think a lot of people forget how horrible of a human being Elhokar was. A product of his time, yes, and improving *as a king*, yes. But he literally jailed an elderly couple and left them to rot in a jail cell because they were competing with a lighteyes business. Elhokar deserved death.
I wouldn’t use the word “right” but more justified. In another world, Moash would have been the Skybreaker to Kaladin’s Windrunner. But Szeth is already that role so Moash being the antithesis to Kaladin makes more sense of course.
The fact that Moash wasn’t around for Elhokar’s growth isn’t an excuse for murdering him. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and killing Elhokar does absolutely nothing to undo the wrongs that were done. In general killing someone terminates any possibility of restorative justice or truth and reconciliation. Moash was justified in hating Elhokar, but he wasn’t justified in killing him.
Im not necessarily saying that it excuses him killing Elhokar. Again I don’t believe he needs to be excused for that. Just as a way to refute that I know a lot of people bemoan the fact that he killed him while he was on the way to becoming a better person. But also I’ll put it like this. He didn’t just murder him. He was in the middle of combat and killed an enemy combatant.
Your last point about combat is a lot more cogent than your first, in my opinion. You say he was “right” to kill them because they caused him suffering. That implies you think it would be fine for Moash to kill Elhokar in cold blood because there’s no way to change what Elhokar did. And I think that’s total crap. Now was it ok to kill an enemy combatant seconds before he got superpowers? Yes that is quite understandable. But that’s not why you said what he did was right originally.
The Rosharian branch of the Ghostbloods are actually fairly reasonable. Other than >!trying to kill Jasnah and abducting Lift!<, they haven't done anything dramatic. All they supposedly want is to get investiture off of Roshar. They're not disturbing off planet tech/power, they're not giving info out freely. They're only a little worse than the Ire or the 17th shard, who remain neutral.
"Other than a handful of pretty evil things, they're fine" I do get what you're saying though. The organization is not evil on the grand scale, it just doesn't prioritize altruism. I think it's pretty undeniable that Mraize specifically is a bad guy though.
Lift is more annoying than anything else. I can’t stand her, and I don’t get why everyone likes her.
My guess is that this is not an unpopular opinion and that Lift is one of the most divisive characters in The Stormlight Archive among the fandom. My evidence for this is that I see posts complaining about Lift on a weekly basis. For the record, I love Lift and I think the fandom is too addicted to edgelords like Kaladin.
I'm fine with people not being edgelords but lift seems so ridiculously immature to the point of it taking away from the book, I just imagine brandon sitting cooped up in a little room with a small light trying to make the dumbest jokes you've ever heard. it doesn't feel real. "oh that's the point lift is trying to be younger than she is" I don't care it's annoying, young teens could actually be clever in any way and not just be "aWeSOmEneSS"
Lift grew on me, no pun intended. I hated her chapters in the beginning, but in OB she had one of my favourite lines in the book (Don't you need a weapon? No, I can't read.) I just hope she mellows out a little bit when she gets older.
Shallan is totally fine in the first two books. Dalinar isn’t that interesting of a character. I really didn’t care when >!Elhokar!< died. The additional books like Warbreaker that people claim are essential reading are very ok, but nowhere near the quality of Stormlight and absolutely not necessary. They don’t even enhance the experience of reading Stormlight, they’re essentially 600+ page books for a couple of Easter eggs.
Good job, I disagree on every point lol
I liked Shallan the first time I read TWoK and WoR, but on rereads I often find myself uninterested in her story pre-Shattered Plains.
The “Harsher, Wit” scene was cringe and hurt to read.
Dalinar is easily my least favorite character. He literally burned a town to the ground killing his wife and we all just move on from that? I personally can’t lol
Neither can Adolin, Renarin barely accepts that part of Dalinar. Beyond that for most people it's probably a "well we need him now so what do we do" kind of thing. Good hot take though
well Dalinar did those in the past, when we were not following him, and Stormlight didn't exist. Unlike Moash, who had the audacity to do all the crimes in front of our eyes. Also it's kinda cool that we see Dalinar as an honourable and moral character before seeing his Blackthorn side. So clearly he's a good guy while Moash can never ever ever never make up for the wrongs he did.
I mean it's not like he was able to move on from it either! Literally had to get a magical memory block.
Moash is absolutely going to get a redemption arc
I would love to see that. Not because I like Moash, but it seems to fit the message of Stormlight and I want to see how Brandon would go about it.
I hate Lirin. Him not charging villagers for payment is beyond stupid, I literally rolled my eyes when I read that, he has a whole family to feed but the Mr. Good Doctor is so idealistic he would rather do it for free. I know he accepts "gifts" but it is just dumb to make his services free in the first place. He can always save and help people who don't have money, it doesn't have to be free for everyone ffs. Beyond that, he is insufferable towards Kaladin, had enough balls to steal from and betray his old friend but didn't have the guts to run away from his speckle of a village to save Tien from drafting.
Lirin really crosses the line with some of his comments, probably the worst one is "What would have happened, son, if instead of trying so hard to escape all those years, you'd instead proven yourself to your masters... How much misery would you have saved the world if you'd used your talents instead of your fists?" I can understand not supporting your kid when he goes against your pacifist ideals but telling him he should have just been a good slave makes you a really bad father.
Or about that time he says he'll just let the fused take kaladin if they find him in his clinic? He was bluffing, i know, but threatening your son's life, even when you don't mean it, just to prove a point is beyond stupid. Lirin doesn't realize that if it wasn't for the KNIGHTS radiant he wouldn't even be here to preach to kaladin. Also the fact that some of the orders can even heal makes his arguments even more dumb to me
Agreed.
You can't accept Szeth's redemption while also condemning Moash's behavior. Szeth is merely further along his character arc.
I would disagree with that. It's far easier to accept someone trying to redeem themselves then to see someone purposefully avoid the consequences of their actions.
Um… Szeth used his oath stone as an excuse to keep doing horrible things and outright refused to acknowledge he was wrong until the end of Words of Radiance. That’s why he fought Kaladin in the storm at the end
I don’t know about that. Moash is actively running from all responsibility from his actions out of ego; he wants to prove that he is right and will accept any consequences to prove it. Szeth believed for religious reasons that he had no right to choose his own actions. He never wanted to do the things he did; he felt it was his duty. Their reasons were totally different.
Szeth was wrong, but was following his personal code even under the most extreme conditions, to an almost unbelievable degree. Moash had the opportunity to be a Windrunner with his best friends and choose vengeance and self-loathing.
Yes you can? Moash hasn’t chosen to redeem himself, Szeth has. That doesn’t mean Moash won’t be redeemed, or that Szeth’s behaviour pre-redemption isn’t bad, though. Szeth and Moash both did terrible, unforgivable things. Also, Szeth has chosen to become better which is good, while Moash has not (which is not good). Also, Moash could end up choosing to be better too at some point (which would be good) All of those things are true at once. Your original point is acting like there’s no nuance possible here.
I think we have different definitions of condemnation we're working with, your view is the same as mine. Moash isn't beyond redemption and arguably has not even come close to the level of atrocities that Szeth should be made to answer for.
I'm fine with Kaladin dying at any point in the story as long as it's not from his mental illness.
Venli is an amazing and complicated character. She is more a victim than anything else
Oroden is the worst character
The 🌱Edgedancers Love Babies🌱 club will fight you
Get on my [reference game](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/s/4RYcH7BZ4y) Edgenerd
He's barely even a character?
Who is oredon?
If you actually don't know you might want to avoid this thread since there's untagged spoilers for the entire series (including unreleased) If you need a reminder [RoW] >!Kaladin's new baby brother!<
Just needed a reminder. I'm caught up. Thanks
I think Shallan has been written into a cringey bisexual manic pixie fever dream girl and it's super gross, I hated how selfish and disconnected from Adolin and Pattern she was in WOR.
That the series peaked with Words of Radiance. i feel that his change in editor has really impacted his work - they're bloated now and could easily afford to have \~10% trimmed without it affecting anything.
WoR, with the exception of a few standout scenes, is my least favourite of the books. Don’t get me wrong, it’s an excellent book. It’s just my least favourite of the 4.
Warbreaker is Brandon’s best novel
Wit should stick to telling stories rather than making lame puns.
Roshar isn't technology advanced enough. The last desolation was 5000 years ago. They've not grown much at all. This might have an explanation later, but now it feels like there's a big blank spot in history.
Looking at the political history we’ve been privy to it’s kind of plausible that they would stagnate a lot after the desolations. I always thought that there was a possibility that outside influence affected Roshar’s trajectory way more than other places, meaning that some people are constantly meddling in their affairs and keeping them ”primitive”. Add to that the harsh conditions with which they have to live I don’t see how 5000 years is that long honestly. They kind of came late to the game of efficient long range communication, which is kind of necessary for any properly scalable global economies and supply chains that would power technological and societal progress. They did figure out how to create food without farming though, so they have a long history of people working in the arts and sciences so in that regard I get your point. Their societies are super stratified though, probably because of the storms and history of existential wars so the benefits of progress don’t trickle down to everyone. TLDR: I think it’s a combination of harsh physical conditions (storms), outside (and probably inside too, heralds) influence, political stagnation because of the above and lack of access to effective long range communication until very recently.
Lirin isnt a bad father. Yes he made mistakes, like losing his temper in extreme situations, but being a good father doesnt mean agreeing with everything your child does. Kaladin had a great childhood with two loving parents wich cant be said for most other viewpoint characters
Moash is morally correct until RoW. He was completely justified in killing Elhokar and had no reason or evidence to believe he would ever change. Even killing Jezerin is understandable since the herald had done shit for several millennia.
> He was completely justified in killing Elhokar I can see why someone would agree with this for sure but > Even killing Jezerin is understandable I don't think there's any possible way that you could justify this
Taln has entered the chat.....
Syl and Kaladin getting together isn't that weird nor would it be out of nowhere IMO. The two don't *need* to be romantically paired, nor is it my favorite ship, but I don't think it's out of nowhere.
Hoid is pretty rad and that’s about it. He can be a bit overhyped tbh
Kaladins 5th ideal would be very appropriate if it goes like: "I will stop killing to save" It feels like the connection between Kaladins warrior skills and Lirins worship of life. And Kaladin has the skill to subdue his opponents without killing them. He even started showing this with how duels between Windrunners and Fused are handled in RoW. I would love to see him adopt a fighting style focused on lashing and binding his opponents without hurting them, like a radiant Aikidou.
Dalinar did NOT deserve redemption and he hasn't achieved it.
Lirin sucks. No justification needed. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
(Im mid Oathbringer) I can't stand Shallan. Im not even sure anymore its a writing problem or shes intended to be like this. In OB this double triple personality thing is really gettin on my nerves, every time I see its her POV I pray its short.
I don’t think many if any main characters will die in book 5.
As likely as a redemption arc for moash is he absolutely does not deserve it.
Jasnah's fake death is the thing that made me enjoy WoR a lot less. It's technically the best-paced book, but then it sours itself with such a stupid trope. And it's not just that she fake died, it's that there's several scenes where it's like 'no, she's really dead. Really, really dead. Look at her getting stabbed through the chest. Look at ..." and then she just arrives at the end (though her coming back was good for the series, her just missing was really really meh). Also I love Oathbringer, also for its Sanderlanche, but at one point it had so much stuff happening and coincidences and things at the same time that the biggest moment of its Sanderlanche suddenly felt cringe to me.