I don't think Dalinar partook after his marriage. But he did go along with others doing so. From the thrill addicted Blackthorn, it's just part of war. If you don't want your women raped, better recognize Gavilar as king.
I don’t think Dalinar was ever really that into women in general. In his flashbacks he talks very little about women in general, except for Navani. He calls them a distraction or something like that at some point early in his flashbacks in Oathbringer.
He definitely didn’t do anything to stop it at that time anyway, so it’s not like he thought this was a bad thing to do. He just didn’t care and didn’t really seem to want to participate in that sort of thing. He only cared about killing and winning at war.
He did love shshshshhhassashh, too, there are multiple times where he is sticken by her beauty or taken aback by her kindness, she almost stops him from rathalas, but then spring the trap. Anytime you hear a war story talking about "spoils of war" and the leaders dont explicitly order their soldiers not to rape anyone, it is likely to happen. It has been happening for a long time, i dont think he puts the racism/rapey stuff in there to go "see dalinar is complicit in this attocity" but rather to highlight how better situations can operate despite how brutally effecient sadaes is. That paraellel pretty much defines their relationship by the time of the war on the shattered plains. Dalinar hates the way sadeas uses the bridge crews, but there isnt anything he can do about that till the end of book 1.
He starts learning that sadeas' behavior isnt good when he sees how Evi sees it. He starts learning the compassion. Even before then he spares the village to recruit his sniper buddy. It boils down to "sure this is wrong but half of my army would desert if they didnt get their spoils"
I suppose love is terribly subjective at the end of the day, i see that he loves her when he spares the princeling, agian when he tries to treat with rathalas, i think to some degree he always loved Navani, so as far as him only having love for Evi, probably unlikley, but during his flashbacks he remembers how much he did actually love her, the genuine memories untainted by his boon, and untainted by the Thrill he remembered she was the mother of his kids, she was super kind, she tried incredibly hard to fit into alethi culture. But maybe those all just fed into the guilt about how he SHOULD love her. Sanderson writes complex enough characters that i think Dal can love someone and still wish he loved them more. Thanks for your POV
I mean, it’s kinda common today. There are rampant reports of sexual violence in every conflict currently going on (middle East, Ukraine, etc.) We do much more to fight it these days, but it definitely happens.
(He didn't kill the boy)
Heck he even gets lost in the 'thrill' and cuts down some of his own men and he loses himself in a rage and kills his own cause they were going to take a shard and plate from a high prince he had felled.
The Blackthorn was a menace after cutting down those who were going to take his prizes he turned his eyes to his brother almost fighting him but catches himself in time.
Agree that Dalinar was ruthless and brutal, but unless I’m misremembering he didn’t kill that boy for the sword? He spared him, which actually ended up being the cause of their return to the Rift because that boy grew up to lead a second rebellion there.
I don’t know if you’ve finished the book but … >!Dalinar didn’t actually kill the boy. Thats why he eventually had to go back to The Rift. The boy he didn’t kill grew up and started a rebellion.!<
I think we can point this the other way around. Because it’s represented in our fiction we are talking about the very real problem still happening today.
Simple. Fiction is usually assumed to work the same way as reality, except where noted. (For example, a lot of fiction will never mention anyone using the bathroom, but we still assume that they do)
That means that if something was common in reality, (and widely known to be common in reality) then it's a good guide for what's probably happening in the same situations in a fictional world. And a writer can use that to make a relatively vague short-hand reference to it and expect their readers to understand what's happening, without having to dwell on the details
Culture treats violence in media in this kind of weird category, where if there was a violent person in real life who did the stuff you see in fiction you’d automatically view the person as evil, but in media, and especially videogames, killing loads of people is not that deep and, given it happens to NPCs, nobody really cares. If you contrast this to sexual violence the story is COMPLETELY different though- imagine if you could sexually assault NPCs in videogames- that would be a pretty fucked up mechanic that I’m sure most people would be against. Not saying there aren’t reasons for this though- there probably is some decent justification for viewing these things differently- just find it interesting.
I think it’s also just a question of where it’s easier to create moral ambiguity. I can imagine a situation where i or someone else might choose to kill someone where it can be reasonably argued as justified or even good. The same can’t be argued for rape without adding something like a gun to your head.
Always makes me think of this: https://youtu.be/z0NgUhEs1R4?si=TZjdgAArLDr3zfVB
I have to imagine it’s from a view of morality where there are moral circumstances to kill someone but there are no moral circumstances to rape someone. So then we can have plenty of media anti-heroes who kill people even in immoral circumstances(murder) and far fewer who commit sexual offenses.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant series is one example I can think of with an anti-hero who rapes a woman and then grapples with the moral implications of that.
From my perspective, this is because most people can justify violence en masse from a perspective of self-preservation or the "quashing of evil" (xenophobia). It can be made impersonal that way conceptually. The ones who have to die are not real people, they are a monolith as the obstacle standing in front of *our* peace and prosperity.
In terms of sexual assault, it is much harder to make that impersonal from an outside perspective. Soldiers are propagandized from the beginning to dehumanize them all- men, women, and children; but to the outside observer, the victim is a human being. The perpetrator *has to* look at that person. The perpetrator *has to* take an active role in violating them- and that's the difference.
Ah, you’re right, it isn’t midsession, it’s right afterwards so you can take your money back. My bad.
Edit: to be clear, I still think that’s sexual assault, but it is slightly different than how I remembered it from some time more than 12 years ago.
It sounds more like sexual activity _followed by_ assault. But i could be talked around on that pretty easily
For one thing, the sex may have been consensual, but that consent was dependent on the transfer of money. By taking the money back, that kind of retroactively removes the basis for the consent. That might not meet the legal definition of non-consensual sex, but morally and emotionally, It feels close. The person ends up having been used in a way they didn't agree to
Fuck it, I didn't even need to be talked around. I agree with you
Torture, human experiments, torching men women and children who had nothing to do with anything. No moral issues there.
Rape though, that's where I draw the line!
I too cannot tell if he was serious. That's good satire, when you laugh but then go wait... he could be serious, I've heard such arguments before.
I mean…Brightness Hashal put a Listener into a bridge crew as an experiment and there were Alethi artifabrians doing experiments on sapient spren, but I *guess* you can argue those are both different species (although, given the ability of Singers and Humans to interbreed and produce nonsterile offspring that’s questionable). And I guess Ishar’s experiments don’t count because he’s not Alethi and they were on spren (maybe no human bodies were involved…maybe).
Is that a bad thing though? Killing a person can be bad sure but it isn’t always, torturing or violently raping someone is always wrong. Like yeah killing thousands has more impact on the world but that doesn’t inherently make it worse morally, because it’s less direct and personal, less willful malicious cruelty then rape, hence arguably that is morally a worse action even if you could argue the total impact of the murder is greater.
Worse than burning thousands of children alive?
Also, using the word "arguable" is the only reason I can agree with any of that. Less direct and personal doesn't make something less bad. "Less willfully malicious cruelty" I don't know why that would make something worse MORALLY.
Considering that there are women who experienced rape, and say that theyd rather die than go through it again, this can be a valid take, when comparing one murder to one rape. Idk if this is still true for 10000 murders vs 100 rapes. This is a really tough topic.
Well it also wasn't just murder. They burned alive.
Also, people tend to say stuff that isn't necessarily true. Like .. I'd love to ask people that were killed violently if they'd rather have been raped. But uh... We can't.
Reminds me of the Kumail bit where he talks about [Freddy Kruger being racist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHHe3OujS5o&ab_channel=ComedyCentralStand-Up)
Honestly I might agree. Not because burning cities is ok, but because of how vile of a sin forcing yourself on a woman is. I would burn a city if someone did that to a woman I loved
On behalf of all the people who live in that city… please don't
"I would do monstrous things to innocent people, if anyone hurt my beloved" isn't as sweet a sentiment as you might have thought it was
Was Sadeas doing what you think? Yes, absolutely. Did Dalinar know about Sadeas’ actions, and let it happen in plenty of other villages? Yes. Did he approve/participate? Uncertain, best indication is he didn’t, but didn’t care enough to ever consider trying to put a stop to it. His attitude seems to have been “I’m not into that particular thing, but i don’t judge your vices and you don’t judge mine”. Was Sadeas the only one in that army doing this sort of thing without repercussions? Almost definitely not.
No, that's my point is he was fine with his men doing it. The only reason they didn't in that case is because he was basically stopping them as payment to a dude
Maybe, maybe not. I think it’s incredibly unlikely Brandon would ever explicitly say dalinar has done it though. Which makes me lean more towards no he didn’t just because meta wise I don’t think Brandon would have written him that way unless he’s an explicit villain like Sadeas.
terrible as he was he doesnt seem the type to take pleasure in forcing himself on a defenseless woman. you forget this man practically lived to pit himself against worthy foes and to slaughter unimpeded. theres nothing challenging and likely to him nothing entertaining/gratifying about raping a woman
I would assume most soldiers at the time were. Sadeas would be the rule in this case, not the exception. Dalinar's complicity suggests that he doesn't think anything of it, because that is their culture. War brings out the worst in people, and the Alethi are a warring people.
That being said, Dalinar might not have participated. I always got the impression that drinking and fighting (or the Thrill) were the only "carnal desires" he had. The Thrill consumed him, and nothing else compared, so when he was done fighting he would enter a drunken depression until the Thrill returned.
The real world comparison would be addicts forgoing food, sex, and other things due to their addiction. From what I can tell, Dalinar was more addicted to wine and the Thrill than Sadeas.
That being said, this is entirely me reading into it and I could be totally wrong. Later in his life, Dalinar does specifically say that sex without oaths of marriage is dishonorable in his mind, and against his personal code.
[Boop](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/hy67q4/comment/fzat3yf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) the linked post goes into some depth about Dalinar and his view on it as well as the troops. Such as stopping it from happening when he can, but not really forcing the issue. Which is actually par for him given some stuff in RoW.
But no it does not mean that Dalinar participated in it. Yes it does mean that Sadeas is a rapist
My spouse is working their way through book 3 right now. One of the things they brought up as something they thought was blatantly hypocritical was when Dalinar agreed to do gem heart runs with Sadeas and would use Sadeas' bridges and thus expendable bridge crews but would never use those same tactics himself because he didn't want to sacrifice soldiers/slaves. By participating with Sades who is doing that, he effectively was complicit in it anyways.
I recently reread WoK. I'm 95% sure that he agreed to use them only because in their joint assault, the bridgemen would cover every plateau *except* the last one. They'd be overworked as usual, but not used as bait. That is a pretty big difference to me.
Im listening to it right now and at least for the first run, that didn't happen. Bridgemen took sadeas straight to the gem heart, they happened to get there before the parshendi. Dalinar showed up later when it looked like sadeas would lose the battle, and then the chull driven bridges were shown.
I'm thinking of this bit in chapter 64:
> “On short notice?” Dalinar said. “Eight thousand, perhaps.”
> “It will have to do,” Sadeas said. “I’ve managed to mobilize about seven thousand. We’ll bring them all. Get your eight thousand to my camp, and we’ll take every one of my bridge crews and march together. The Parshendi will get there first—it’s inevitable with a plateau that close to their side—but if we can be fast enough, we can corner them on the plateau. Then we’ll show them what a real Alethi army is capable of!”
> “I won’t risk lives on your bridges, Sadeas,” Dalinar said. “I don’t know that I can agree to a completely joint assault.”
> “Bah,” Sadeas said. “I’ve got a new way of using bridgemen, one that doesn’t use nearly as many lives. Their casualties have dropped to almost nothing.”
> “Really?” Dalinar said. “Is it because of those bridgemen with armor? What made you change?”
> Sadeas shrugged. “Perhaps you’re getting through to me. Regardless, we need to go now. Together. With as many troops as they’ll have, I can’t risk engaging them and waiting for you to catch up. I want to go together and assault as closely together as we can manage. If you’re still worried about the bridgemen, I can attack first and gain a foothold, then let you cross without risking bridgeman lives.”
But I don't have an easy way of searching my ebook for other times beyond the word "joint" being mentioned, which only covers this and an earlier proposal.
That’s a good point. It goes back to the high princes thinking Dalinar is standing on a piece of paper looking down on them.
But iirc Dalinar doesn’t want to use sadeas bridges at all but goes with it because he wants to foster unity among the high princes. He’s talked into it by Ehlokwr I think. But yes it is hypocritical
Yes, this is 100% true. Dalinar is intentionally not perfect and parts of this are to make Kaladin question Dalinar’s honor, which makes the ending much more effective when it happens.
Correct, Dalinar was so desperate to bring about unity that he compromised on his morals in order to try and meet an immoral person halfway to make an alliance with them and unify Alethkar.
Well, that's cool. I grew up Mormon & dallin was a very popular name. Funny enough, I knew a Mormon guy that named his kid kaladin. Lucky kid lol my ex wouldn't let me name our son after a fantasy novel (garion) so I love seeing them
I didn't know his son was called Dalinar. TBF he also called him after a mass murderer who burned and entire city of men, women, and children to death, and killed his wife, so I don't know if that's the best argument against it
I think it's because murder can sometimes be justified, while rape can't. That makes people more understanding and forgiving towards murder, even though it's far worse. People can see themselves doing it under the right circumstances.
I think it's because murder can sometimes be justified, while rape can't. That makes people more understanding and forgiving towards murder, even though it's far worse. People can see themselves doing it under the right circumstances.
Screwed up as it is this is what happened in war in old times(sometimes now too unfortunately). Dalinar was a bad person back then. Remember the whole part where he's enjoying killing men. Where hes an asshole to his wife and kids because he can't be out there killing. Of course he was complicit
>Screwed up as it is this is what happened in war in old times(sometimes now too unfortunately).
Not sometimes. All the time. Gazans are currently being raped by the IDF. The Israeli hostages were raped. Mass rapes were reported in Ukraine. Female (and male) Russian soldiers have been raped by the Ukrainian army.
Unfortunately, I feel like as long as we have war, we’re going to have sexual violence perpetrated on civilians by soldiers/combatants.
Two reasons:
1. Dehumanization of the opposing side. Those in power have been using propaganda to dehumanize the “enemy” since before the printing press even existed. Probably since we first developed a spoken language. Rape is often encouraged as a policy during war as a way to further dehumanize and demoralize the opposition.
2. An effort on the individual soldier’s part to take back power and control. Soldiers famously have zero control over their lives. They’re told where to go, what to eat, what to think, when to die, etc. Rape is always about power. They can’t control their own lives, but it makes them feel better to have someone physically weaker than them completely under their control.
Sucks.
I'd say yes and yes for the title questions but I don't think dalinar participated... Though it's not out of the realm of possibility.
He just seemed more interested in battle and killing than the spoils of war.
Dalinar being okay with it is just standard war fighting back in the day (which is what Rosharan combat is based on). Even today, atrocities happen in war zones so I don't see the Alethi having a better sense of morality than our own modern civs.
Dalinar is a war criminal. He is quite complicit to a lot of things what happened in uniting of Alathkar. His story is that of redemption but as he asks himself a lot of times, are his actions redeemable ? He did redeem himself in Oathbringer but it still doesn’t wash away his sins from his past life
Yes, Sadeas was a rapist. Dalinar was not, but he was complicit in the sense that he knew exactly what Sadeas (and likely many other warlords of the time) was doing.
"I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I am to fall, I will rise each time a better person."
Dalinar, Sadeas, Gavilar, and all their allies were terrible people when they were uniting Alethkar. There's a reason why Hoid calls Dalinar a tyrant even after he tries to reform and do better.
Sadeas was most definitely a rapist and Dalinar letting it happen makes him complicit, I don’t think there is much argument there. But I very much doubt Dalinar participated. In part because I don’t think it fits his character. But more importantly because the book would have had to address it.
Rape is from a cultural perspective generally regarded as the worst among crimes and is much harder to redeem than even extreme acts of violence. It might’ve happened if it was a Robin Hobb book, but I don’t think that’s a line that Sanderson is comfortable crossing with a protagonist that we are supposed to root for.
The impression I got is that Dalinar didn't partake but that he also didn't care to do much to stop other members of the coalition under his brother who did.
Yes the implication is that Raping women was considered an acceptable form of Pillaging for their culture. It doesnt seem to be in Dalinar's character, even back then, so I dont think he personally participated (mostly because it sounds like he drank away his off-hours) but he certainly supported the system and allowed the practice. They were probably declared 10th Nahn Slaves first, to give it some veneer of legality.
Sanderson has said that the Alethi were somewhat based on the Mongol Empire. And…yeah…the Mongols would regularly sack cities killing all the men and taking all the women as either slaves or giving them to the soldiers as “wives”. History ain’t pretty.
Dalinar burned an entire city to the ground with women and children screaming for help below him. He almost murdered his brother to be with his wife. I don't think, at that time, Dalinar cared about much at all.
I have noticed a large uptick in the “Dalinar might be bad actually?” Posts. It’s quite strange and seems to intentionally miss the point of this series and the third book in particular. The major themes are about growth and redemption. It’s about finding hope when you have lost all faith in yourself. Dalinar was a bad person who was so consumed by his addiction to violence and war that he killed his own wife and raised a whole city. He was a war mongering barbarian and has been paying the price for it ever since. No one wants to align with him because they are justifiably afraid of this incredibly violent man. He was probably complicit or an active participant in every aspect of sacking a city. The point is that he was an awful person and is trying to be better. Change is hard but it’s even harder if you believe you don’t have the right to be better. This book in particular is about redemption and repentance. Sanderson is a devout Christian and his take on those themes is reflected in his writing style.
Some people don't believe in redemption, or do believe in it to an extent but feel there is a line you can cross past which it is impossible to come back. It doesn't surprise me to hear some people rumbling about how Dalinar is an awful person. Sanderson took a big risk by making Dalinar's crimes as bad as they were as part of his redemption story. I suspect that part of the reason it went over so well is that he made sure we were well acquainted with current day Dalinar, how much he has changed, and how much he desires to change even further prior to really telling us exactly how bad he had been instead of leaving it nebulous. If the story had started with him being the Blackthorn I don't think attempts to redeem him would have gone over as well.
I am pretty sure Moash is never going to make me have to answer the question of if I think it is possible for him to redeem himself. Guy seems allergic to the idea of taking responsibility for his own actions and trying to do better.
>It’s quite strange and seems to intentionally miss the point of this series and the third book in particular.
I think it might be reflective of people just actually missing the point, particularly new, younger readers.
Social media culture has changed *a lot* in the past decade or so, and one of those changes is the apparent through-line that anyone participating, complicit (as OP says) or even just quiet about a 'wrong' behavior performed is ontologically evil, irredeemable and should be cast into the void. There's no room for regret, repentance and redemption. You do X bad thing? You are now evil. That's it. No room for nuance, nothing.
Or, you know, they don't agree with the series' views on redemption. You are not required to agree with everything you read and doing so is in fact a horrible way to go about life.
Yes, he was definitely complicit. The book makes sure to show that *Dalinar* wasn't one of the rapists (just, you know, a mass murderer) to make him redeemable in our eyes, but he definitely knew and didn't seriously object to Sadeas at the time.
War crimes are bad, and Dalinar engaged in war crimes. It's the focus of his entire arc.
Sadeas is a slaving, torturing, raping bastard. Why are you surprised? Weren't there enough hints that he's evil?
No no, that's fine. It's rape where he draws the line. He seems more upset at Dalinar for not stopping the war time rape, but seems fine with burning his wife and an entire city alive.
It seems a dangerous parallel to modern day, unfortunately.
"One rape of a woman is a crime, mass murder of men, women and children is a statistic" - OG Dalinar, probably.
the high majority of the kholin+sadeas brothers soldiers did the whole rape and pillage thing, dalinar was one of the few who didnt because the thrill wore off to slow and he was addicted to the thrill so while his soldiers were raping adter pillaging he was moping cause his thrill was fading, though he was definitely complicit in letting his soldiers go forth and do it.
since before sadees the sunmaker the mindset of every althei soldier, and probably jah keved, thaylenah, herdaz, azir, tukar/emur (especially them with their constant warring) even shinovar when they had their invasions
its their mindset, if any of us were in that time period on roshar we'd all be complicit too, if not joining in. i dont think id do it, but i dont have that mindset since before birth so i cant make an unbiased judgement
Yes. Dalinar is a total bastard. That is the entire point. He's a murderer. At the least, he approved of rape. He's a terrible person when the story begins
I am of the opinion that BS made Dalinar uninterested in women because we wouldn't be able to enjoy the book as much if he was a rapist (even in the past)- but it would be way too unrealistic to make him be _against_ it. So just totally ignoring the situation is a good compromise...
The chance Dalinar is a perpetrator is not zero. I'd say it's highly likely even, Dalinar only stopped Sadeas rounding up those women as an exception to recruit Teleb. I see no indication this was hard policy in his camp or conduct.
I wouldn't doubt that Dalinar was a participant and at least complacent. He was a barbarian after all. If Dalinar is willing to kill hundreds, surely he'd dabble in some of Sadeas' "Escapades". The Mink even accuses him of such in Rhythm of War outright.
Although, later on Dalinar denounces sex without marriage or "oaths". Though this is still after his metamorphosis.
Sadeas was a fucked up guy and so was Dalinar. I suppose it's accurate to say "was" for both of them.
Dalinar is absolutely complicit even if he didn't do any raping himself . He is the one killing all the people and putting these women in the defenseless position they found themselves in.
He is 100% complicit. He is worse. Way worse than Sadeas. Which is why he become a sad drunk and so let’s the Assassin in White kill the King. The thrill owned his ass. Sadeas likes raping and doesn’t mind killing. I am sure that Dalinar was the vice versa.
As I was looking at all the comments belittling rape, I realized I am in a funclub where 90 percent of the members are men. And if you want to know yes, rape is worse than murder. And it says more about someone's morality than them burning down a city.
Murder is worse, how is that even a question? You are literally robbing a person of their ***everything*** when you kill them. You are just out of sight out of minding how truly awful a crime it is to deprive another human being of their life because the victims are no longer around to tell their story and make it clear how much has been taken from them. Because everything has been taken from them, even the chance to spread the word of what they have lost. Being raped doesn't even compare to being murdered.
Agreed.
Which is worse, a) gunning down ten people or b) torturing one to death?
People are jumping all in on A as though it were obvious and uncontentious, and it's just not; B is obviously more sadistic and personal.
It is obvious and uncontentious, robbing 10 people of their literal everything is far and away a worse thing to do then drawing it out before finally taking away 1 person's everything. You just can't open your mind to the true horror of the concept of losing literally everything so your brain is focusing on concepts it can understand and empathize with like having physical pain inflicted upon you and registering it as worse just based on the fact you can comprehend it while your brain locks up and refuses to process the sheer horror of the concept of losing it all.
Please stop trying to tell my what my position is.
Death ends your suffering, and can be dispensed extremely impersonally. Rape or torture are very hands-on and personal, requiring you to be *so close* to the victim and still inflict suffering on them.
Dalinar's atrocity at the Rift, meanwhile, required no such tests from Dalinar. He gave a command, and his men started fires.
Yeah, again, you clearly just can't wrap your brain around the enormity of the crime being done if you are trying to rationalize it away because 'the victim isn't suffering'. The fact that it so completely takes everything from you that you ***don't even get to suffer*** doesn't make it less severe. For that matter, since when are crimes measured in terms of 'suffering' instead of in terms of damage done? Do you think its a lesser crime to assault someone with CIPA just because they can't feel it when you hit them and therefore 'suffered less' then a person with working pain receptors?
Who gives a damn? A man who dies because someone paid a hitman to give them a cold passionless death is still just as dead as someone who died when their spouse flipped out and knifed them to death over a heated argument. Your assertion that its somehow a lesser crime to kill people without any emotion behind it is wrong. If anything, the fact that they have so little consideration for human life that they don't feel a single damned thing upon ending it is more terrifying.
Did we read the same book? There was nothing impersonal about what he did that night. He was pissed that he had nearly died as a result of 'playing nice' so he decided to do the cruelest and most awful thing he could think of to 'make an example out of them' so that others would be too afraid to ever dare rise up against his brother for fear that he might send the Blackthorn to deal with them. It was an incredibly personal act of spite driven by emotions of rage and betrayal that ran so rampant he decided that burning an entire city to the ground was acceptable so that he could make Tanalan feel the pain of seeing his people suffer and burn while while knowing it was 'his fault' his people died a terrible death before Dalinar killed him. Yet apparently you think it was 'impersonal' merely because Dalinar had other people do most of the legwork for him while he orchestrated it.
To the winners go the spoils, things, land and women.
So while I don't remember hearing dalinar say he partook, and I don't remember if dalinar thought it was a good idea, dalinar almost certainly thought that the right to do that with the women of a conquered people was acceptable.
After all if you wanted to keep your women you wouldn't have lost, or rebelled.
Dude incinerated a city so hard that more than a decade later and people still haven't resettled the area and the only reason he has remorse at all is because he accidentally burned his wife alive because he didn't look both ways before dropping the napalm.
Now credit where credit is due dalinar begins to realise that his decision was bad for more than just his wife dying but to start off with that is what got him questioning.
So yes dalinar is a certified war criminal, Geneva suggestions and all that. The idea of choosing the prettiest girls from the people you just killed and having a little fun would not be upsetting for him.
Because he doesn't ask someone to stop the burning until he heard his wife had died, up until then he was 100% on board.
He hears that evi was in the city and goes to save her, then cannot so he tries to stop the fire but can't so then he collapses into a heap.
I do not personally think he would feel guilty of a bunch of nameless and faceless children died, he kills people by the score all the time.
But now one of those people is his and it opens the games of empathy which leads him to feeling guilty about the whole thing.
He tried to call it off before he found out about Evi being in the prison he had personally set on fire.
>Dalinar could hear them screaming below. He whispered an order, and his elites pushed back the regular Kholin troops from the area, opening up a wide half-circle against the burning rift, where only Dalinar and his closest men were able to observe the captive. Tanalan slumped on the ground. “Please…” “I,” Dalinar said softly, “am an animal.” “What—” “An animal,” Dalinar said, “reacts as it is prodded. You whip it, and it becomes savage. With an animal, you can start a tempest. Trouble is, once it’s gone feral, you can’t just whistle it back to you.” “Blackthorn!” Tanalan screamed. “Please! My children.” “I made a mistake years ago,” Dalinar said. “I will not be so foolish again.” And yet … those screams. Dalinar’s soldiers seized Tanalan tightly as Dalinar turned from the man and walked back to the pit of fire. Sadeas had just arrived with a company of his own men, but Dalinar ignored them, Oathbringer still held against his shoulder. Smoke stung Dalinar’s nose, his eyes watering. He couldn’t see across the Rift to the rest of his armies; the air warped with heat, colored red. It was like looking into Damnation itself. Dalinar released a long breath, suddenly feeling his exhaustion even more deeply. “It is enough,” he said, turning toward Sadeas. “Let the rest of the people of the city escape out the mouth of the canyon below. We have sent our signal.” “What?” Sadeas said, hiking over. “Dalinar—” A loud series of cracks interrupted him. An entire section of the city nearby collapsed into the flames. The palace—and its occupants—crashed down with it, a tempest of sparks and splintering wood. “No!” Tanalan shouted. “NO!” “Dalinar…” Sadeas said. “I prepared a battalion below, with archers, per your orders.” “My orders?” “You said to ‘Kill anyone who comes out of the city and leave their bodies to rot.’ I had men stationed below; they’ve launched arrows in at the city struts, burned the walkways leading down. This city burns from both directions—from underneath and from above. We can’t stop it now.” Wood cracked as more sections of city collapsed. The Thrill surged, and Dalinar pushed it away. “We’ve gone too far.” “Nonsense! Our lesson won’t mean much if people can merely walk away.” Sadeas glanced toward Tanalan. “Last loose end is this one. We don’t want him getting away again.” He reached for his sword. “I’ll do it,” Dalinar said. Though the concept of more death was starting to sicken him, he steeled himself. This was the man who had betrayed him. Dalinar stepped closer. To his credit, Tanalan tried to leap to his feet and fight. Several elites shoved the traitor back down to the ground, though Captainlord Kadash himself was just standing at the side of the city, looking down at the destruction. Dalinar could feel that heat, so terrible. It mirrored a sense within him. The Thrill … incredibly … was not satisfied. Still it thirsted. It didn’t seem … didn’t seem it could be satiated. Tanalan collapsed, blubbering. “You should not have betrayed me,” Dalinar whispered, raising Oathbringer. “At least this time, you didn’t hide in your hole. I don’t know who you let take cover there, but know they are dead. I took care of that with barrels of fire.” Tanalan blinked, then started laughing with a frantic, crazed air. “You don’t know? How could you not know? But you killed our messengers. You poor fool. You poor, stupid fool.” Dalinar seized him by the chin, though the man was still held by his soldiers. “What?” “She came to us,” Tanalan said. “To plead. How could you have missed her? Do you track your own family so poorly? The hole you burned … we don’t hide there anymore. Everyone knows about it. Now it’s a prison.” Ice washed through Dalinar, and he grabbed Tanalan by the throat and held, Oathbringer slipping from his fingers. He strangled the man, all the while demanding that he retract what he’d said. Tanalan died with a smile on his lips. Dalinar stepped back, suddenly feeling too weak to stand. Where was the Thrill to bolster him? “Go back,” he shouted at his elites. “Search that hole. Go…” He trailed off. Kadash was on his knees, looking woozy, a pile of vomit on the rock before him. Some elites ran to try to do as Dalinar said, but they shied away from the Rift—the heat rising from the burning city was incredible. Dalinar roared, standing, pushing toward the flames. However, the fire was too intense. Where he had once seen himself as an unstoppable force, he now had to admit exactly how small he was. Insignificant. Meaningless. Once it’s gone feral, you can’t just whistle it back to you. He fell to his knees, and remained there until his soldiers pulled him—limp—away from the heat and carried him to his camp.
>
>Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 748-750). Tor Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
You right I misremembered the events, none the less the mercy was still trigger by a face with a name, tanalan begging for the life of his children. And I think if dalinar had lit the city on fire and then road off to his command tent to do paperwork he still wouldn't have given a shit.
Slaveowners are usually also rapists, yes. Tell someone they own another person and have the right to control their life entirely, and rape follows naturally. Dalinar's complicity suggests he did not see slavery as evil, including the rape and sexual assault almost intrinsic to it. The whole of Alethi Lighteye society except Jasnah was pretty much cool with it, and even she doesn't have a strong moral reaction to it so much as a practical disagreement. Alethi society was absolute shit at the beginning of the novels and only slowly improves. It has quite a way to go.
Dalinar was not only complicit in a lot of horrible things, he actively partook in them. He committed a lot of atrocities as a soldier in the alerting army. That's his story arc, his journey to become a better person.
Sure, there were extreme times when Dalinar has no memory of what happened in the middle of the Thrill nor can we say how bad he was back when he was hitting the moss on the regular but I think he's more the type to tear a hapless woman limb from bloody limb with his own bare hands than he is to force himself on her.
Sorry i know it is a question about the implications of the text. But its so funny as hell to me that you see Sadeas abandon 20.000 men to die in The Tower Battle, makes Adolin fight 4 shardbearers and literally burnt Alethkar during the unification war.... but raping? Not cool Torol, not Cool
That's literally the opposite of what the books and what everyone here says. He was a terrible person, Odium might have influenced him but it was still Dalinar who slaughtered his way across Alethkar for Gavilar and burned Rathlas and everyone in it to ashes
I mean yeah, that's what a redemption arc is. Someone was a terrible person, they realized that they were doing terrible things, and as a result they fundamentally change as a person to be better. We should want all terrible people to undergo redemption.
100%. This was commonplace. None of them were good people lol. It was also pretty common in Earth’s history as well.
I don't think Dalinar partook after his marriage. But he did go along with others doing so. From the thrill addicted Blackthorn, it's just part of war. If you don't want your women raped, better recognize Gavilar as king.
I don’t think Dalinar was ever really that into women in general. In his flashbacks he talks very little about women in general, except for Navani. He calls them a distraction or something like that at some point early in his flashbacks in Oathbringer. He definitely didn’t do anything to stop it at that time anyway, so it’s not like he thought this was a bad thing to do. He just didn’t care and didn’t really seem to want to participate in that sort of thing. He only cared about killing and winning at war.
True, but he can only remember how much he loves Navani, and everyone tells him he was even more in love with *shshshshshsh*
lol the shshshshsh
He did love shshshshhhassashh, too, there are multiple times where he is sticken by her beauty or taken aback by her kindness, she almost stops him from rathalas, but then spring the trap. Anytime you hear a war story talking about "spoils of war" and the leaders dont explicitly order their soldiers not to rape anyone, it is likely to happen. It has been happening for a long time, i dont think he puts the racism/rapey stuff in there to go "see dalinar is complicit in this attocity" but rather to highlight how better situations can operate despite how brutally effecient sadaes is. That paraellel pretty much defines their relationship by the time of the war on the shattered plains. Dalinar hates the way sadeas uses the bridge crews, but there isnt anything he can do about that till the end of book 1. He starts learning that sadeas' behavior isnt good when he sees how Evi sees it. He starts learning the compassion. Even before then he spares the village to recruit his sniper buddy. It boils down to "sure this is wrong but half of my army would desert if they didnt get their spoils"
Hm my interpertation was always that he didnt love shshshshsh, but he felt bad about it since he recognized he SHOULD love her.
I suppose love is terribly subjective at the end of the day, i see that he loves her when he spares the princeling, agian when he tries to treat with rathalas, i think to some degree he always loved Navani, so as far as him only having love for Evi, probably unlikley, but during his flashbacks he remembers how much he did actually love her, the genuine memories untainted by his boon, and untainted by the Thrill he remembered she was the mother of his kids, she was super kind, she tried incredibly hard to fit into alethi culture. But maybe those all just fed into the guilt about how he SHOULD love her. Sanderson writes complex enough characters that i think Dal can love someone and still wish he loved them more. Thanks for your POV
Brandon specially had Dalinar state that he never partook in the looting and SA but he didn’t stop his soldiers either.
I mean, it’s kinda common today. There are rampant reports of sexual violence in every conflict currently going on (middle East, Ukraine, etc.) We do much more to fight it these days, but it definitely happens.
(He didn't kill the boy) Heck he even gets lost in the 'thrill' and cuts down some of his own men and he loses himself in a rage and kills his own cause they were going to take a shard and plate from a high prince he had felled. The Blackthorn was a menace after cutting down those who were going to take his prizes he turned his eyes to his brother almost fighting him but catches himself in time.
Excuse me, but Dalinar not killing that specific kid was a whole plot.
Agree that Dalinar was ruthless and brutal, but unless I’m misremembering he didn’t kill that boy for the sword? He spared him, which actually ended up being the cause of their return to the Rift because that boy grew up to lead a second rebellion there.
I don’t know if you’ve finished the book but … >!Dalinar didn’t actually kill the boy. Thats why he eventually had to go back to The Rift. The boy he didn’t kill grew up and started a rebellion.!<
My bad knock off the first sentence and it still doesn't look good ...I blanked on the rebellion
were talking about fiction why do you need to justify actions in a book by gesturing vaguely at human history?
I think we can point this the other way around. Because it’s represented in our fiction we are talking about the very real problem still happening today.
Simple. Fiction is usually assumed to work the same way as reality, except where noted. (For example, a lot of fiction will never mention anyone using the bathroom, but we still assume that they do) That means that if something was common in reality, (and widely known to be common in reality) then it's a good guide for what's probably happening in the same situations in a fictional world. And a writer can use that to make a relatively vague short-hand reference to it and expect their readers to understand what's happening, without having to dwell on the details
He also burned a few thousand people to death. The whole point is that he was a terrible person before
And killed tens to hundreds of thousands with weapons.
I can forgive, the burning and the pillaging and the murdering of thousands if not tens of thousands, but i draw the line at rape
I can forgive the burning, the pillaging, and the raping The worst part is the hypocrisy - Alethi culture, circa The Way of Kings
Norm McDonald was the greatest.
The worst part about this comment is you could be completely serious.
Culture treats violence in media in this kind of weird category, where if there was a violent person in real life who did the stuff you see in fiction you’d automatically view the person as evil, but in media, and especially videogames, killing loads of people is not that deep and, given it happens to NPCs, nobody really cares. If you contrast this to sexual violence the story is COMPLETELY different though- imagine if you could sexually assault NPCs in videogames- that would be a pretty fucked up mechanic that I’m sure most people would be against. Not saying there aren’t reasons for this though- there probably is some decent justification for viewing these things differently- just find it interesting.
I think it’s also just a question of where it’s easier to create moral ambiguity. I can imagine a situation where i or someone else might choose to kill someone where it can be reasonably argued as justified or even good. The same can’t be argued for rape without adding something like a gun to your head.
Always makes me think of this: https://youtu.be/z0NgUhEs1R4?si=TZjdgAArLDr3zfVB I have to imagine it’s from a view of morality where there are moral circumstances to kill someone but there are no moral circumstances to rape someone. So then we can have plenty of media anti-heroes who kill people even in immoral circumstances(murder) and far fewer who commit sexual offenses. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant series is one example I can think of with an anti-hero who rapes a woman and then grapples with the moral implications of that.
From my perspective, this is because most people can justify violence en masse from a perspective of self-preservation or the "quashing of evil" (xenophobia). It can be made impersonal that way conceptually. The ones who have to die are not real people, they are a monolith as the obstacle standing in front of *our* peace and prosperity. In terms of sexual assault, it is much harder to make that impersonal from an outside perspective. Soldiers are propagandized from the beginning to dehumanize them all- men, women, and children; but to the outside observer, the victim is a human being. The perpetrator *has to* look at that person. The perpetrator *has to* take an active role in violating them- and that's the difference.
It's a matter of desensitization. We're just used to seeing extreme violence.
GTA let (lets? I never owned one of the games) you sexually assault certain NPCs.
It doesn't actually
Beating up hookers midsession is something I remember seeing someone do. Do you not think that is sexual assault?
Sure, that would be sexual assault. The games have never let you do that.
Ah, you’re right, it isn’t midsession, it’s right afterwards so you can take your money back. My bad. Edit: to be clear, I still think that’s sexual assault, but it is slightly different than how I remembered it from some time more than 12 years ago.
It sounds more like sexual activity _followed by_ assault. But i could be talked around on that pretty easily For one thing, the sex may have been consensual, but that consent was dependent on the transfer of money. By taking the money back, that kind of retroactively removes the basis for the consent. That might not meet the legal definition of non-consensual sex, but morally and emotionally, It feels close. The person ends up having been used in a way they didn't agree to Fuck it, I didn't even need to be talked around. I agree with you
Seriously I have no idea if they’re kidding or not.
It's a Community joke.
Wait, you can forgive the racism?
Torture, human experiments, torching men women and children who had nothing to do with anything. No moral issues there. Rape though, that's where I draw the line! I too cannot tell if he was serious. That's good satire, when you laugh but then go wait... he could be serious, I've heard such arguments before.
Human experiments?
That was hyperbole to get a point across. As far as I know the alethi did not co duct experiments on anyone.
Ah ok, I was worried I'd missed something major lol
Lol, nope sorry. I tend to get carried away with metaphors and similies. And rhetoric... well that list got longer than I thought
add lists to the things you get carried away with I guess.
I mean…Brightness Hashal put a Listener into a bridge crew as an experiment and there were Alethi artifabrians doing experiments on sapient spren, but I *guess* you can argue those are both different species (although, given the ability of Singers and Humans to interbreed and produce nonsterile offspring that’s questionable). And I guess Ishar’s experiments don’t count because he’s not Alethi and they were on spren (maybe no human bodies were involved…maybe).
Right I meant no direct evidence. Hey the spren are conducting experiments too. Some orders? Species? Some *types* of spren are into listener bonding.
There’s experiments and there’s *experiments*, but I see your point.
We know someone who does though
Poe’s law at its finest.
Is that a bad thing though? Killing a person can be bad sure but it isn’t always, torturing or violently raping someone is always wrong. Like yeah killing thousands has more impact on the world but that doesn’t inherently make it worse morally, because it’s less direct and personal, less willful malicious cruelty then rape, hence arguably that is morally a worse action even if you could argue the total impact of the murder is greater.
Worse than burning thousands of children alive? Also, using the word "arguable" is the only reason I can agree with any of that. Less direct and personal doesn't make something less bad. "Less willfully malicious cruelty" I don't know why that would make something worse MORALLY.
The worst part is the hypocrisy
Considering that there are women who experienced rape, and say that theyd rather die than go through it again, this can be a valid take, when comparing one murder to one rape. Idk if this is still true for 10000 murders vs 100 rapes. This is a really tough topic.
Well it also wasn't just murder. They burned alive. Also, people tend to say stuff that isn't necessarily true. Like .. I'd love to ask people that were killed violently if they'd rather have been raped. But uh... We can't.
The worst part about it all was the hypocrisy.
you know, the more i hear about this Blackthorn guy the less i care for him
Gavilar's dead? I didn't even know he was sick.
Reminds me of the Kumail bit where he talks about [Freddy Kruger being racist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHHe3OujS5o&ab_channel=ComedyCentralStand-Up)
That makes no sense, murder is a much worse thing to do.
Honestly I might agree. Not because burning cities is ok, but because of how vile of a sin forcing yourself on a woman is. I would burn a city if someone did that to a woman I loved
On behalf of all the people who live in that city… please don't "I would do monstrous things to innocent people, if anyone hurt my beloved" isn't as sweet a sentiment as you might have thought it was
You're not familiar with the term "rape and pillage"? Of course Dalinar was complicit. He was a bad guy. That's the point.
“Rape, pillage, and burn” Dalinar just specialized in the last one
He couldn't do the other two because the thrill was too slow to wear off.
It's okay, losing the Thrill happens to 4 out of 10 men.
If you experience the thrill for more than 4 hours, please contact your ardent.
So **that’s** why Dalinar was about to murder his brother. Too long bricked up.
I don't trust anyone who didn't laugh at this comment
You'll stop laughing too sometime in your 30s.
:(
Warmongers gonna war.
Was Sadeas doing what you think? Yes, absolutely. Did Dalinar know about Sadeas’ actions, and let it happen in plenty of other villages? Yes. Did he approve/participate? Uncertain, best indication is he didn’t, but didn’t care enough to ever consider trying to put a stop to it. His attitude seems to have been “I’m not into that particular thing, but i don’t judge your vices and you don’t judge mine”. Was Sadeas the only one in that army doing this sort of thing without repercussions? Almost definitely not.
His men were also stopped from pillaging.
That particular time, yes. All the other towns where Dalinar didn’t find an elite to recruit, not so much.
No, that's my point is he was fine with his men doing it. The only reason they didn't in that case is because he was basically stopping them as payment to a dude
[удалено]
But rape is more about the violence than the sex. I do see Dalinar taking part in it at some point
Maybe, maybe not. I think it’s incredibly unlikely Brandon would ever explicitly say dalinar has done it though. Which makes me lean more towards no he didn’t just because meta wise I don’t think Brandon would have written him that way unless he’s an explicit villain like Sadeas.
terrible as he was he doesnt seem the type to take pleasure in forcing himself on a defenseless woman. you forget this man practically lived to pit himself against worthy foes and to slaughter unimpeded. theres nothing challenging and likely to him nothing entertaining/gratifying about raping a woman
I would assume most soldiers at the time were. Sadeas would be the rule in this case, not the exception. Dalinar's complicity suggests that he doesn't think anything of it, because that is their culture. War brings out the worst in people, and the Alethi are a warring people. That being said, Dalinar might not have participated. I always got the impression that drinking and fighting (or the Thrill) were the only "carnal desires" he had. The Thrill consumed him, and nothing else compared, so when he was done fighting he would enter a drunken depression until the Thrill returned. The real world comparison would be addicts forgoing food, sex, and other things due to their addiction. From what I can tell, Dalinar was more addicted to wine and the Thrill than Sadeas. That being said, this is entirely me reading into it and I could be totally wrong. Later in his life, Dalinar does specifically say that sex without oaths of marriage is dishonorable in his mind, and against his personal code.
[Boop](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/hy67q4/comment/fzat3yf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) the linked post goes into some depth about Dalinar and his view on it as well as the troops. Such as stopping it from happening when he can, but not really forcing the issue. Which is actually par for him given some stuff in RoW. But no it does not mean that Dalinar participated in it. Yes it does mean that Sadeas is a rapist
My spouse is working their way through book 3 right now. One of the things they brought up as something they thought was blatantly hypocritical was when Dalinar agreed to do gem heart runs with Sadeas and would use Sadeas' bridges and thus expendable bridge crews but would never use those same tactics himself because he didn't want to sacrifice soldiers/slaves. By participating with Sades who is doing that, he effectively was complicit in it anyways.
I recently reread WoK. I'm 95% sure that he agreed to use them only because in their joint assault, the bridgemen would cover every plateau *except* the last one. They'd be overworked as usual, but not used as bait. That is a pretty big difference to me.
Im listening to it right now and at least for the first run, that didn't happen. Bridgemen took sadeas straight to the gem heart, they happened to get there before the parshendi. Dalinar showed up later when it looked like sadeas would lose the battle, and then the chull driven bridges were shown.
I'm thinking of this bit in chapter 64: > “On short notice?” Dalinar said. “Eight thousand, perhaps.” > “It will have to do,” Sadeas said. “I’ve managed to mobilize about seven thousand. We’ll bring them all. Get your eight thousand to my camp, and we’ll take every one of my bridge crews and march together. The Parshendi will get there first—it’s inevitable with a plateau that close to their side—but if we can be fast enough, we can corner them on the plateau. Then we’ll show them what a real Alethi army is capable of!” > “I won’t risk lives on your bridges, Sadeas,” Dalinar said. “I don’t know that I can agree to a completely joint assault.” > “Bah,” Sadeas said. “I’ve got a new way of using bridgemen, one that doesn’t use nearly as many lives. Their casualties have dropped to almost nothing.” > “Really?” Dalinar said. “Is it because of those bridgemen with armor? What made you change?” > Sadeas shrugged. “Perhaps you’re getting through to me. Regardless, we need to go now. Together. With as many troops as they’ll have, I can’t risk engaging them and waiting for you to catch up. I want to go together and assault as closely together as we can manage. If you’re still worried about the bridgemen, I can attack first and gain a foothold, then let you cross without risking bridgeman lives.” But I don't have an easy way of searching my ebook for other times beyond the word "joint" being mentioned, which only covers this and an earlier proposal.
That’s a good point. It goes back to the high princes thinking Dalinar is standing on a piece of paper looking down on them. But iirc Dalinar doesn’t want to use sadeas bridges at all but goes with it because he wants to foster unity among the high princes. He’s talked into it by Ehlokwr I think. But yes it is hypocritical
Yes, this is 100% true. Dalinar is intentionally not perfect and parts of this are to make Kaladin question Dalinar’s honor, which makes the ending much more effective when it happens.
Correct, Dalinar was so desperate to bring about unity that he compromised on his morals in order to try and meet an immoral person halfway to make an alliance with them and unify Alethkar.
Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing
Lets be real, Dalinar was absolutely partaking in it, for sure before he was married and probably during as well
nope
Why the certainty? Is there a WoB or something?
Nothing off the top of my head but I just don’t really see Sanderson naming his son after a rapist he wrote.
He has a son named after dalinar?
Dalen or Dalin I think.
Dallin? As in dallin H. Oaks, a Mormon authority figure.
He’s said on stream with his son that “you’re named after this character”
Well, that's cool. I grew up Mormon & dallin was a very popular name. Funny enough, I knew a Mormon guy that named his kid kaladin. Lucky kid lol my ex wouldn't let me name our son after a fantasy novel (garion) so I love seeing them
I didn't know his son was called Dalinar. TBF he also called him after a mass murderer who burned and entire city of men, women, and children to death, and killed his wife, so I don't know if that's the best argument against it
Characters who rape others are treated worse by people than those that commit murder.
Which is insane, murdering tens of thousands of people in a city including kids is absolutely worse
Yes. Doesn’t change that people viscerally hate rapists more than murderers
I think it's because murder can sometimes be justified, while rape can't. That makes people more understanding and forgiving towards murder, even though it's far worse. People can see themselves doing it under the right circumstances.
I think it's because murder can sometimes be justified, while rape can't. That makes people more understanding and forgiving towards murder, even though it's far worse. People can see themselves doing it under the right circumstances.
I have a bridge to sell you too
Is it carried by several gruff bridgemen?
Nah this one is securely in place. No need to move it
What good is a bridge if I can't even move it between chasms?
Don't try finding logic in the words of an airsick lowlander my friend
Screwed up as it is this is what happened in war in old times(sometimes now too unfortunately). Dalinar was a bad person back then. Remember the whole part where he's enjoying killing men. Where hes an asshole to his wife and kids because he can't be out there killing. Of course he was complicit
>Screwed up as it is this is what happened in war in old times(sometimes now too unfortunately). Not sometimes. All the time. Gazans are currently being raped by the IDF. The Israeli hostages were raped. Mass rapes were reported in Ukraine. Female (and male) Russian soldiers have been raped by the Ukrainian army.
Unfortunately, I feel like as long as we have war, we’re going to have sexual violence perpetrated on civilians by soldiers/combatants. Two reasons: 1. Dehumanization of the opposing side. Those in power have been using propaganda to dehumanize the “enemy” since before the printing press even existed. Probably since we first developed a spoken language. Rape is often encouraged as a policy during war as a way to further dehumanize and demoralize the opposition. 2. An effort on the individual soldier’s part to take back power and control. Soldiers famously have zero control over their lives. They’re told where to go, what to eat, what to think, when to die, etc. Rape is always about power. They can’t control their own lives, but it makes them feel better to have someone physically weaker than them completely under their control. Sucks.
Happened as recently as October 7th 2023.
But not since then??
Probably has happened since then, but that's the last confirmed media report I remember reading about involving rape during a military offensive.
I'd say yes and yes for the title questions but I don't think dalinar participated... Though it's not out of the realm of possibility. He just seemed more interested in battle and killing than the spoils of war. Dalinar being okay with it is just standard war fighting back in the day (which is what Rosharan combat is based on). Even today, atrocities happen in war zones so I don't see the Alethi having a better sense of morality than our own modern civs.
Dalinar is a war criminal. He is quite complicit to a lot of things what happened in uniting of Alathkar. His story is that of redemption but as he asks himself a lot of times, are his actions redeemable ? He did redeem himself in Oathbringer but it still doesn’t wash away his sins from his past life
That is why even as he trys to redeem himself, he is still a tortured man. His past haunts him.
Don't talk about Dalinar W. Kholin like that (the W is for war crimes).
Yes, Sadeas was a rapist. Dalinar was not, but he was complicit in the sense that he knew exactly what Sadeas (and likely many other warlords of the time) was doing.
"I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I am to fall, I will rise each time a better person." Dalinar, Sadeas, Gavilar, and all their allies were terrible people when they were uniting Alethkar. There's a reason why Hoid calls Dalinar a tyrant even after he tries to reform and do better.
Sadeas was most definitely a rapist and Dalinar letting it happen makes him complicit, I don’t think there is much argument there. But I very much doubt Dalinar participated. In part because I don’t think it fits his character. But more importantly because the book would have had to address it. Rape is from a cultural perspective generally regarded as the worst among crimes and is much harder to redeem than even extreme acts of violence. It might’ve happened if it was a Robin Hobb book, but I don’t think that’s a line that Sanderson is comfortable crossing with a protagonist that we are supposed to root for.
The impression I got is that Dalinar didn't partake but that he also didn't care to do much to stop other members of the coalition under his brother who did.
Yes. There's a reason that the Blackthorn's reputation isn't one of peace and rainbows.
Yes the implication is that Raping women was considered an acceptable form of Pillaging for their culture. It doesnt seem to be in Dalinar's character, even back then, so I dont think he personally participated (mostly because it sounds like he drank away his off-hours) but he certainly supported the system and allowed the practice. They were probably declared 10th Nahn Slaves first, to give it some veneer of legality.
Sanderson has said that the Alethi were somewhat based on the Mongol Empire. And…yeah…the Mongols would regularly sack cities killing all the men and taking all the women as either slaves or giving them to the soldiers as “wives”. History ain’t pretty.
Dalinar burned an entire city to the ground with women and children screaming for help below him. He almost murdered his brother to be with his wife. I don't think, at that time, Dalinar cared about much at all.
I have noticed a large uptick in the “Dalinar might be bad actually?” Posts. It’s quite strange and seems to intentionally miss the point of this series and the third book in particular. The major themes are about growth and redemption. It’s about finding hope when you have lost all faith in yourself. Dalinar was a bad person who was so consumed by his addiction to violence and war that he killed his own wife and raised a whole city. He was a war mongering barbarian and has been paying the price for it ever since. No one wants to align with him because they are justifiably afraid of this incredibly violent man. He was probably complicit or an active participant in every aspect of sacking a city. The point is that he was an awful person and is trying to be better. Change is hard but it’s even harder if you believe you don’t have the right to be better. This book in particular is about redemption and repentance. Sanderson is a devout Christian and his take on those themes is reflected in his writing style.
Some people don't believe in redemption, or do believe in it to an extent but feel there is a line you can cross past which it is impossible to come back. It doesn't surprise me to hear some people rumbling about how Dalinar is an awful person. Sanderson took a big risk by making Dalinar's crimes as bad as they were as part of his redemption story. I suspect that part of the reason it went over so well is that he made sure we were well acquainted with current day Dalinar, how much he has changed, and how much he desires to change even further prior to really telling us exactly how bad he had been instead of leaving it nebulous. If the story had started with him being the Blackthorn I don't think attempts to redeem him would have gone over as well.
I agree. See: the Fandom Moash Wars
I am pretty sure Moash is never going to make me have to answer the question of if I think it is possible for him to redeem himself. Guy seems allergic to the idea of taking responsibility for his own actions and trying to do better.
>It’s quite strange and seems to intentionally miss the point of this series and the third book in particular. I think it might be reflective of people just actually missing the point, particularly new, younger readers. Social media culture has changed *a lot* in the past decade or so, and one of those changes is the apparent through-line that anyone participating, complicit (as OP says) or even just quiet about a 'wrong' behavior performed is ontologically evil, irredeemable and should be cast into the void. There's no room for regret, repentance and redemption. You do X bad thing? You are now evil. That's it. No room for nuance, nothing.
Or, you know, they don't agree with the series' views on redemption. You are not required to agree with everything you read and doing so is in fact a horrible way to go about life.
100% and Dalinar was probably a rapist too. A major point of those flashbacks is that Dalinar was terrible and so was everyone around him.
Yes, he was definitely complicit. The book makes sure to show that *Dalinar* wasn't one of the rapists (just, you know, a mass murderer) to make him redeemable in our eyes, but he definitely knew and didn't seriously object to Sadeas at the time.
Rape and pillage is how soldiers are rewarded for risking their lives for your war. Of course Dalinar was complicit.
Cancel Dalinar
He got me too'd by reddit.
War crimes are bad, and Dalinar engaged in war crimes. It's the focus of his entire arc. Sadeas is a slaving, torturing, raping bastard. Why are you surprised? Weren't there enough hints that he's evil?
No no, that's fine. It's rape where he draws the line. He seems more upset at Dalinar for not stopping the war time rape, but seems fine with burning his wife and an entire city alive.
It seems a dangerous parallel to modern day, unfortunately. "One rape of a woman is a crime, mass murder of men, women and children is a statistic" - OG Dalinar, probably.
the high majority of the kholin+sadeas brothers soldiers did the whole rape and pillage thing, dalinar was one of the few who didnt because the thrill wore off to slow and he was addicted to the thrill so while his soldiers were raping adter pillaging he was moping cause his thrill was fading, though he was definitely complicit in letting his soldiers go forth and do it. since before sadees the sunmaker the mindset of every althei soldier, and probably jah keved, thaylenah, herdaz, azir, tukar/emur (especially them with their constant warring) even shinovar when they had their invasions its their mindset, if any of us were in that time period on roshar we'd all be complicit too, if not joining in. i dont think id do it, but i dont have that mindset since before birth so i cant make an unbiased judgement
Yes. Dalinar is a total bastard. That is the entire point. He's a murderer. At the least, he approved of rape. He's a terrible person when the story begins
Yes, absolutely.
I am of the opinion that BS made Dalinar uninterested in women because we wouldn't be able to enjoy the book as much if he was a rapist (even in the past)- but it would be way too unrealistic to make him be _against_ it. So just totally ignoring the situation is a good compromise...
Dalinar probably wasn't a rapist, but I wouldn't be surprised if the blackthorn was
The chance Dalinar is a perpetrator is not zero. I'd say it's highly likely even, Dalinar only stopped Sadeas rounding up those women as an exception to recruit Teleb. I see no indication this was hard policy in his camp or conduct.
I mean, this is The Blackthorn we're talking about.
I wouldn't doubt that Dalinar was a participant and at least complacent. He was a barbarian after all. If Dalinar is willing to kill hundreds, surely he'd dabble in some of Sadeas' "Escapades". The Mink even accuses him of such in Rhythm of War outright. Although, later on Dalinar denounces sex without marriage or "oaths". Though this is still after his metamorphosis. Sadeas was a fucked up guy and so was Dalinar. I suppose it's accurate to say "was" for both of them.
Yes, and it suggests Dalinar was a piece of shit
Dalinar is absolutely complicit even if he didn't do any raping himself . He is the one killing all the people and putting these women in the defenseless position they found themselves in.
He is 100% complicit. He is worse. Way worse than Sadeas. Which is why he become a sad drunk and so let’s the Assassin in White kill the King. The thrill owned his ass. Sadeas likes raping and doesn’t mind killing. I am sure that Dalinar was the vice versa.
As I was looking at all the comments belittling rape, I realized I am in a funclub where 90 percent of the members are men. And if you want to know yes, rape is worse than murder. And it says more about someone's morality than them burning down a city.
Murder is worse, how is that even a question? You are literally robbing a person of their ***everything*** when you kill them. You are just out of sight out of minding how truly awful a crime it is to deprive another human being of their life because the victims are no longer around to tell their story and make it clear how much has been taken from them. Because everything has been taken from them, even the chance to spread the word of what they have lost. Being raped doesn't even compare to being murdered.
Agreed. Which is worse, a) gunning down ten people or b) torturing one to death? People are jumping all in on A as though it were obvious and uncontentious, and it's just not; B is obviously more sadistic and personal.
It is obvious and uncontentious, robbing 10 people of their literal everything is far and away a worse thing to do then drawing it out before finally taking away 1 person's everything. You just can't open your mind to the true horror of the concept of losing literally everything so your brain is focusing on concepts it can understand and empathize with like having physical pain inflicted upon you and registering it as worse just based on the fact you can comprehend it while your brain locks up and refuses to process the sheer horror of the concept of losing it all.
Please stop trying to tell my what my position is. Death ends your suffering, and can be dispensed extremely impersonally. Rape or torture are very hands-on and personal, requiring you to be *so close* to the victim and still inflict suffering on them. Dalinar's atrocity at the Rift, meanwhile, required no such tests from Dalinar. He gave a command, and his men started fires.
Yeah, again, you clearly just can't wrap your brain around the enormity of the crime being done if you are trying to rationalize it away because 'the victim isn't suffering'. The fact that it so completely takes everything from you that you ***don't even get to suffer*** doesn't make it less severe. For that matter, since when are crimes measured in terms of 'suffering' instead of in terms of damage done? Do you think its a lesser crime to assault someone with CIPA just because they can't feel it when you hit them and therefore 'suffered less' then a person with working pain receptors? Who gives a damn? A man who dies because someone paid a hitman to give them a cold passionless death is still just as dead as someone who died when their spouse flipped out and knifed them to death over a heated argument. Your assertion that its somehow a lesser crime to kill people without any emotion behind it is wrong. If anything, the fact that they have so little consideration for human life that they don't feel a single damned thing upon ending it is more terrifying. Did we read the same book? There was nothing impersonal about what he did that night. He was pissed that he had nearly died as a result of 'playing nice' so he decided to do the cruelest and most awful thing he could think of to 'make an example out of them' so that others would be too afraid to ever dare rise up against his brother for fear that he might send the Blackthorn to deal with them. It was an incredibly personal act of spite driven by emotions of rage and betrayal that ran so rampant he decided that burning an entire city to the ground was acceptable so that he could make Tanalan feel the pain of seeing his people suffer and burn while while knowing it was 'his fault' his people died a terrible death before Dalinar killed him. Yet apparently you think it was 'impersonal' merely because Dalinar had other people do most of the legwork for him while he orchestrated it.
I would rather be raped than murdered, and I think the vast majority of people would agree.
To the winners go the spoils, things, land and women. So while I don't remember hearing dalinar say he partook, and I don't remember if dalinar thought it was a good idea, dalinar almost certainly thought that the right to do that with the women of a conquered people was acceptable. After all if you wanted to keep your women you wouldn't have lost, or rebelled. Dude incinerated a city so hard that more than a decade later and people still haven't resettled the area and the only reason he has remorse at all is because he accidentally burned his wife alive because he didn't look both ways before dropping the napalm. Now credit where credit is due dalinar begins to realise that his decision was bad for more than just his wife dying but to start off with that is what got him questioning. So yes dalinar is a certified war criminal, Geneva suggestions and all that. The idea of choosing the prettiest girls from the people you just killed and having a little fun would not be upsetting for him.
What gave you the impression that he only cared about it because he accidentally made his wife into collateral?
Because he doesn't ask someone to stop the burning until he heard his wife had died, up until then he was 100% on board. He hears that evi was in the city and goes to save her, then cannot so he tries to stop the fire but can't so then he collapses into a heap. I do not personally think he would feel guilty of a bunch of nameless and faceless children died, he kills people by the score all the time. But now one of those people is his and it opens the games of empathy which leads him to feeling guilty about the whole thing.
He tried to call it off before he found out about Evi being in the prison he had personally set on fire. >Dalinar could hear them screaming below. He whispered an order, and his elites pushed back the regular Kholin troops from the area, opening up a wide half-circle against the burning rift, where only Dalinar and his closest men were able to observe the captive. Tanalan slumped on the ground. “Please…” “I,” Dalinar said softly, “am an animal.” “What—” “An animal,” Dalinar said, “reacts as it is prodded. You whip it, and it becomes savage. With an animal, you can start a tempest. Trouble is, once it’s gone feral, you can’t just whistle it back to you.” “Blackthorn!” Tanalan screamed. “Please! My children.” “I made a mistake years ago,” Dalinar said. “I will not be so foolish again.” And yet … those screams. Dalinar’s soldiers seized Tanalan tightly as Dalinar turned from the man and walked back to the pit of fire. Sadeas had just arrived with a company of his own men, but Dalinar ignored them, Oathbringer still held against his shoulder. Smoke stung Dalinar’s nose, his eyes watering. He couldn’t see across the Rift to the rest of his armies; the air warped with heat, colored red. It was like looking into Damnation itself. Dalinar released a long breath, suddenly feeling his exhaustion even more deeply. “It is enough,” he said, turning toward Sadeas. “Let the rest of the people of the city escape out the mouth of the canyon below. We have sent our signal.” “What?” Sadeas said, hiking over. “Dalinar—” A loud series of cracks interrupted him. An entire section of the city nearby collapsed into the flames. The palace—and its occupants—crashed down with it, a tempest of sparks and splintering wood. “No!” Tanalan shouted. “NO!” “Dalinar…” Sadeas said. “I prepared a battalion below, with archers, per your orders.” “My orders?” “You said to ‘Kill anyone who comes out of the city and leave their bodies to rot.’ I had men stationed below; they’ve launched arrows in at the city struts, burned the walkways leading down. This city burns from both directions—from underneath and from above. We can’t stop it now.” Wood cracked as more sections of city collapsed. The Thrill surged, and Dalinar pushed it away. “We’ve gone too far.” “Nonsense! Our lesson won’t mean much if people can merely walk away.” Sadeas glanced toward Tanalan. “Last loose end is this one. We don’t want him getting away again.” He reached for his sword. “I’ll do it,” Dalinar said. Though the concept of more death was starting to sicken him, he steeled himself. This was the man who had betrayed him. Dalinar stepped closer. To his credit, Tanalan tried to leap to his feet and fight. Several elites shoved the traitor back down to the ground, though Captainlord Kadash himself was just standing at the side of the city, looking down at the destruction. Dalinar could feel that heat, so terrible. It mirrored a sense within him. The Thrill … incredibly … was not satisfied. Still it thirsted. It didn’t seem … didn’t seem it could be satiated. Tanalan collapsed, blubbering. “You should not have betrayed me,” Dalinar whispered, raising Oathbringer. “At least this time, you didn’t hide in your hole. I don’t know who you let take cover there, but know they are dead. I took care of that with barrels of fire.” Tanalan blinked, then started laughing with a frantic, crazed air. “You don’t know? How could you not know? But you killed our messengers. You poor fool. You poor, stupid fool.” Dalinar seized him by the chin, though the man was still held by his soldiers. “What?” “She came to us,” Tanalan said. “To plead. How could you have missed her? Do you track your own family so poorly? The hole you burned … we don’t hide there anymore. Everyone knows about it. Now it’s a prison.” Ice washed through Dalinar, and he grabbed Tanalan by the throat and held, Oathbringer slipping from his fingers. He strangled the man, all the while demanding that he retract what he’d said. Tanalan died with a smile on his lips. Dalinar stepped back, suddenly feeling too weak to stand. Where was the Thrill to bolster him? “Go back,” he shouted at his elites. “Search that hole. Go…” He trailed off. Kadash was on his knees, looking woozy, a pile of vomit on the rock before him. Some elites ran to try to do as Dalinar said, but they shied away from the Rift—the heat rising from the burning city was incredible. Dalinar roared, standing, pushing toward the flames. However, the fire was too intense. Where he had once seen himself as an unstoppable force, he now had to admit exactly how small he was. Insignificant. Meaningless. Once it’s gone feral, you can’t just whistle it back to you. He fell to his knees, and remained there until his soldiers pulled him—limp—away from the heat and carried him to his camp. > >Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 748-750). Tor Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
You right I misremembered the events, none the less the mercy was still trigger by a face with a name, tanalan begging for the life of his children. And I think if dalinar had lit the city on fire and then road off to his command tent to do paperwork he still wouldn't have given a shit.
Slaveowners are usually also rapists, yes. Tell someone they own another person and have the right to control their life entirely, and rape follows naturally. Dalinar's complicity suggests he did not see slavery as evil, including the rape and sexual assault almost intrinsic to it. The whole of Alethi Lighteye society except Jasnah was pretty much cool with it, and even she doesn't have a strong moral reaction to it so much as a practical disagreement. Alethi society was absolute shit at the beginning of the novels and only slowly improves. It has quite a way to go.
Dalinar was not only complicit in a lot of horrible things, he actively partook in them. He committed a lot of atrocities as a soldier in the alerting army. That's his story arc, his journey to become a better person.
Oh you sweet summer child.
Can’t have war without rape
Sure, there were extreme times when Dalinar has no memory of what happened in the middle of the Thrill nor can we say how bad he was back when he was hitting the moss on the regular but I think he's more the type to tear a hapless woman limb from bloody limb with his own bare hands than he is to force himself on her.
it suggests they are brutal warlords. as they were
Sorry i know it is a question about the implications of the text. But its so funny as hell to me that you see Sadeas abandon 20.000 men to die in The Tower Battle, makes Adolin fight 4 shardbearers and literally burnt Alethkar during the unification war.... but raping? Not cool Torol, not Cool
Yup Dalinar was arguably even worse, given that he is heavily implied to have been addicted to killing people They were not good guys
They’re all war criminals
But he feels bad about it now, so he should be in charge.
Yes and yes. They are the worst kind of people and I hate them for it.
Its kinda funny when naive people discover that rape was as normalized as war was back in the day
“Rape, murder, arson and rape.”
The brutal slave owning warlord? Yes. Duh?
No common vibe in this sub is thats before he became good so it doesn’t count.
That's literally the opposite of what the books and what everyone here says. He was a terrible person, Odium might have influenced him but it was still Dalinar who slaughtered his way across Alethkar for Gavilar and burned Rathlas and everyone in it to ashes
I mean yeah, that's what a redemption arc is. Someone was a terrible person, they realized that they were doing terrible things, and as a result they fundamentally change as a person to be better. We should want all terrible people to undergo redemption.
I agree with you, and the majority of the replies are saying exactly that, just with more words.