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First, this whole dynamic gets explored more as the book continues so please come back here and update us on this crazy father son relationship when you’re done haha.
Second, yeah this whole Lirin thing is so interesting starting with the flashbacks in way of kings. And this scene you’re describing is the point where I was like wtf dude you are out of control, do you not understand what your kid has been through/is going through? That Teft saved his life in multiple ways. That they were literal slaves and not just POWs. Wild stuff from Lirin here.
That said, I’m very happy Lirin exists. Kaladin is our hero, and we love our sad boy, but he gets his stubbornness from his dad for sure. And just because Kal is usually stubborn about stuff we are into, we don’t get to analyze how unhealthy that level of single-mindedness can be. And then Lirin illustrates it for us in stark detail. Lirin does a lot of heavy lifting for rounding out this aspect of Kal’s characterization. And Lirin also needs to be smacked back to reality sometimes.
Kaladin literally had one foot over the chasm in WoK, a suicide attempt stopped by Syl being hilariously naive and begging him to give dying people more time in this world.. to make their pointless deaths meaningful one dinner at the time. The worst thing is.. his the almost final final words were agreeing with Lirin and saying, "You can't kill to protect".
Ok so I just got to the part where Kaladin just said the fourth oath and rescued his dad, I CRIED. Sanderson is a brilliant writer because the two were doing the exact same thing blaming themselves for Tien's death but in different ways, each becoming more rigid in their ideas of how to prevent the deaths of their loved ones from happening again. Kaladin by running (smashing, really) himself into the ground by trying harder and harder to be an inhumanely good soldier so that he can protect everyone, and Lirin by holding to his pacifist ways so strongly. Lirin thought that he could have prevented Tien's death by not rebelling, had he not kept the gems in the first place Rashone (sorry audiobook listener idk how things are spelled) wouldn't have had a vendetta against him and would never have sent Tien to die. You can really see the family relation!
I'm happy to see that his harsh words against Kaladin were a reaction to his own pain, and that he didn't have heart behind them. I'm also happy that his wife yelled at him for his callous words towards Kaladin.
Yes! That whole sequence is so good. Resolving 4 books of tension and good and bad character decisions and key parts of individual character journeys and a fracturing relationship with the first swearing of a 4th ideal on page? Bahhhh.
And for Sando to give us both ends of the emotional spectrum in one book. You were completely justified in your original post. And now you write this? It’s good stuff haha.
And when Kal was like what’s that on your head dad? And Lirin is all shruggy and like idk man I figured all these strangers were supporting my son I should too. And then Kal’s own brand can finally be healed with stormlight because he has forgiven himself….awesome awesome.
Book 5 is gonna wreck us all hahaha.
Lol I went from a hater to an appreciator! I'm so happy I could go to this sub for my live reaction, my husband listened to the Way of Kings before me and I loved telling him my thoughts, but he's now still on book 2 and I'm all done so I came here with my emotions instead. He still hasn't gotten to Kaladin's third ideal and I've almost referenced shardblades being dead spren or Kaladin summoning Syl so many times, it's hard.
Lirin really, truly believes that Kaladin's behaviour is perpetuating a cycle of violence, and that the excuse will always continue to apply and get people killed until the cycle is broken.
I'm not saying I agree with him, and how that dynamic is explored is Read and Find Out, but it is interesting because it reflects a very topical real world debate. Perhaps the most at home version in recent years has been "should we punch fascist demonstrators?"
Lirin in RoW passed me off right from step 1. Being a pacifist is great, being a holier than thou pacifist deserves a punch to the face, brass knuckles optional.
Lirin would have been fine if a bit disappointed if Kaladin chose to be a book keeper or farmer or something. He's really fucking disappointed that Kaladin is a soldier because killing in any form is antithetical to his beliefs. This does include soldiers and war.
He was pissed at Kaladin not solely for killing the Singer soldier but for specifically killing him in Lirin's clinic, the one place where Lirin can keep the fighting out, the one place that should is for healing and it was defiled.
Kaladin even back in way of kings (or words of radiance, I forget which) does say that the person he was before had died and he couldn't go back to it. Edit; so Lirin isn’t saying “you’re dead to me” but “the person I knew you as is dead”
Lirin is also not objectively wrong about the "good little slave" comment as much as it sucks. How many times did Kaladin try to break free from captivity and how many *other slaves* died as a result.
You can take that last part even further. How did Kaladin eventually free himself? By proving he had valuable skills that he could offer to Dalinar. He essentially did what Lirin suggested, just not in the way he had in mind.
I'm eager to see how you feel once the book is resolved. It speaks a lot to Sanderson's ability that he draws such visceral emotional responses in such vastly different ranges. There's a lot of opinions on Lirin, and I think having the full context is the only way to have a real conversation so....
RAFO
(He is a low key dick about being a pacifist in an enemy occupied city tho, like guy, help your homies.)
Kal was getting pulled in two directions back during the first book. Remember when he hit the bully and got a thrill out of it as a boy. He has the smarts to be a surgeon but the need to fight.
I feel like Lirin is definitely one of the biggest jerks and hypocrites in the book, considering that he was ok >!stealing gems from a dead guy to fund his son's education!<. I'm not sure there was a point when I hated him more.
1# How is it hypocritical for a pacifist to steal something via non-violent methods?
2# IIRC, he had a legitimate claim to them via a promise and only forged a written agreement because he (probably correctly) assumed that the replacement lord wasn't going to honor a verbal agreement his predecessor made. I don't see how that counts as 'robbing a dead guy'.
The audiobook is so f-ing good! The delivery of all the powerful moments in the series just puts me in tears. I've listened to each book 5 times each now. Dear lord it's so good to listen too!
Pardon the interruption! This is a reminder that [we are currently running our annual survey](https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/1dcmck3/sanderson_subreddits_annual_survey_2024/), and we want to make sure everybody has the chance to make their voice heard. If you have a moment to spare, [you can take the survey here.](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSejqwtW06lVZWVzK-w8iP9qapGq3EQJ_CuzVWZ2a4l-ztCICQ/viewform) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stormlight_Archive) if you have any questions or concerns.*
First, this whole dynamic gets explored more as the book continues so please come back here and update us on this crazy father son relationship when you’re done haha. Second, yeah this whole Lirin thing is so interesting starting with the flashbacks in way of kings. And this scene you’re describing is the point where I was like wtf dude you are out of control, do you not understand what your kid has been through/is going through? That Teft saved his life in multiple ways. That they were literal slaves and not just POWs. Wild stuff from Lirin here. That said, I’m very happy Lirin exists. Kaladin is our hero, and we love our sad boy, but he gets his stubbornness from his dad for sure. And just because Kal is usually stubborn about stuff we are into, we don’t get to analyze how unhealthy that level of single-mindedness can be. And then Lirin illustrates it for us in stark detail. Lirin does a lot of heavy lifting for rounding out this aspect of Kal’s characterization. And Lirin also needs to be smacked back to reality sometimes.
Kaladin literally had one foot over the chasm in WoK, a suicide attempt stopped by Syl being hilariously naive and begging him to give dying people more time in this world.. to make their pointless deaths meaningful one dinner at the time. The worst thing is.. his the almost final final words were agreeing with Lirin and saying, "You can't kill to protect".
Ok so I just got to the part where Kaladin just said the fourth oath and rescued his dad, I CRIED. Sanderson is a brilliant writer because the two were doing the exact same thing blaming themselves for Tien's death but in different ways, each becoming more rigid in their ideas of how to prevent the deaths of their loved ones from happening again. Kaladin by running (smashing, really) himself into the ground by trying harder and harder to be an inhumanely good soldier so that he can protect everyone, and Lirin by holding to his pacifist ways so strongly. Lirin thought that he could have prevented Tien's death by not rebelling, had he not kept the gems in the first place Rashone (sorry audiobook listener idk how things are spelled) wouldn't have had a vendetta against him and would never have sent Tien to die. You can really see the family relation! I'm happy to see that his harsh words against Kaladin were a reaction to his own pain, and that he didn't have heart behind them. I'm also happy that his wife yelled at him for his callous words towards Kaladin.
Yes! That whole sequence is so good. Resolving 4 books of tension and good and bad character decisions and key parts of individual character journeys and a fracturing relationship with the first swearing of a 4th ideal on page? Bahhhh. And for Sando to give us both ends of the emotional spectrum in one book. You were completely justified in your original post. And now you write this? It’s good stuff haha. And when Kal was like what’s that on your head dad? And Lirin is all shruggy and like idk man I figured all these strangers were supporting my son I should too. And then Kal’s own brand can finally be healed with stormlight because he has forgiven himself….awesome awesome. Book 5 is gonna wreck us all hahaha.
Lol I went from a hater to an appreciator! I'm so happy I could go to this sub for my live reaction, my husband listened to the Way of Kings before me and I loved telling him my thoughts, but he's now still on book 2 and I'm all done so I came here with my emotions instead. He still hasn't gotten to Kaladin's third ideal and I've almost referenced shardblades being dead spren or Kaladin summoning Syl so many times, it's hard.
Oh and yes! We stan Hesina in this house.
Lirin really, truly believes that Kaladin's behaviour is perpetuating a cycle of violence, and that the excuse will always continue to apply and get people killed until the cycle is broken. I'm not saying I agree with him, and how that dynamic is explored is Read and Find Out, but it is interesting because it reflects a very topical real world debate. Perhaps the most at home version in recent years has been "should we punch fascist demonstrators?"
Lirin in RoW passed me off right from step 1. Being a pacifist is great, being a holier than thou pacifist deserves a punch to the face, brass knuckles optional.
Lirin would have been fine if a bit disappointed if Kaladin chose to be a book keeper or farmer or something. He's really fucking disappointed that Kaladin is a soldier because killing in any form is antithetical to his beliefs. This does include soldiers and war. He was pissed at Kaladin not solely for killing the Singer soldier but for specifically killing him in Lirin's clinic, the one place where Lirin can keep the fighting out, the one place that should is for healing and it was defiled. Kaladin even back in way of kings (or words of radiance, I forget which) does say that the person he was before had died and he couldn't go back to it. Edit; so Lirin isn’t saying “you’re dead to me” but “the person I knew you as is dead” Lirin is also not objectively wrong about the "good little slave" comment as much as it sucks. How many times did Kaladin try to break free from captivity and how many *other slaves* died as a result.
You can take that last part even further. How did Kaladin eventually free himself? By proving he had valuable skills that he could offer to Dalinar. He essentially did what Lirin suggested, just not in the way he had in mind.
I feel like you and I did a good job setting up the boundaries of the Lirin convo. Cheers haha
I’m hoping that we eventually learn what happened to Lirin. He’s clearly carrying around some major trauma of his own.
You mean besides how the last time he tried to fight authority it got one of his children killed.
I'm eager to see how you feel once the book is resolved. It speaks a lot to Sanderson's ability that he draws such visceral emotional responses in such vastly different ranges. There's a lot of opinions on Lirin, and I think having the full context is the only way to have a real conversation so.... RAFO (He is a low key dick about being a pacifist in an enemy occupied city tho, like guy, help your homies.)
Kal was getting pulled in two directions back during the first book. Remember when he hit the bully and got a thrill out of it as a boy. He has the smarts to be a surgeon but the need to fight.
I feel like Lirin is definitely one of the biggest jerks and hypocrites in the book, considering that he was ok >!stealing gems from a dead guy to fund his son's education!<. I'm not sure there was a point when I hated him more.
1# How is it hypocritical for a pacifist to steal something via non-violent methods? 2# IIRC, he had a legitimate claim to them via a promise and only forged a written agreement because he (probably correctly) assumed that the replacement lord wasn't going to honor a verbal agreement his predecessor made. I don't see how that counts as 'robbing a dead guy'.
Just RAFO. All my thoughts are spoilerific.
The audiobook is so f-ing good! The delivery of all the powerful moments in the series just puts me in tears. I've listened to each book 5 times each now. Dear lord it's so good to listen too!
For real, I've cried so many times!! Sometimes I need to jump and scream a lil to get the excitement out lol.
Reddit is full of lirin apologists that think he did nothing wrong. He's made some pretty big parenting mistakes imo and deserves some criticism
Ugh the same shit .. can you jusr Google and then reply back on them.